Who was in the wrong?

>>15737449
Yes

>>15737449
A little of column A a lot of column B.

EF were dicks about the independence and embargo stuff.

Zeon were huge flaming assholes about the whole gassings, colony drops, nuke, and giant colony gun.

Both

>>15737449
Zeon. Like, almost entirely Zeon. The dickish things the Federation did don't even approach 1% of the monstrous things Zeon did.

>>15737449
Earth Federation created the conditions for Zeon and its ilk to rise, as we see Spacenoids continue to rise up against the Earth long after Zeon is relegated to history, but Zeon whilst justified in its cause were corrupted by the Zabis and lost sight that they were supposed be a movement for all spacenoids. Their gasings of civilian colonies to use for colony drops are completely unjustifiable, especially when we know it was very possible (Char was able to do it with his ragtag Neo Zeon that had a fraction of the resources the Principality had) to just attack the military asteroid bases and drop those on earth instead.

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>>15737519
>corrupted by the Zabis
>Zabis are the scapegoat
>This meme again

Gihren Zabi was entirely justified in his actions and it's not wonder Char tried to do the same thing years later. You can't cook an omelet without breaking a few eggs.

>>15737449
even though I love zeon character and zeon mobile suits and zeon stuff in general, the zeon political agenda (in all its incarnations) makes no sense, it's comically villainous and more like some extremely tiny 12-man cult

>>15737449
One world government is an inherently evil idea

Fuck the Federation

>>15737449
Moon Nazis and UEG

>>15737449

They're both controlled by (((Them)))

the sooner you realize that Jupiter is the only one that makes sense the better.

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>>15737449
>Killing space-noids for space-noid Independence

are you fucking stupid? Who can anyone defend such clear cut retards (all though Degwin was alright) nothing they did made sense

>>15737544
>(((Jupiter)))

Looks like someone fell for it again

>>15737552
>>15737562
>Federation Dogs can only resort to posting terrible produced comics and image marcos.
Baw Gawd, Feddie Posters are Trump posters.

That should tell you more than enough of who is in the wrong here.

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>>15737589
>Feddie Posters are Trump posters.
This.

Zeon supporters are based Bernie posters. They know radical changes in the system are necessary for us to evolve beyond our limitations.

The federation did Operation British

>>15737598
Except Bernie is in favor of bigger government, so he would obviously favor the Federation.

Trump is Zeon because his base is essentially a personality cult.

>>15737449
Zeeks for having a shitty ideology and murdering billions, Feddies for not towing their colonies into the sun.

>>15737521
>You can't cook an omelet without breaking a few eggs
Yeah you can, stop being a shitty cook.

Zeon was batshit insane from the beginning.

>Zeon Zum Deikun was a philosopher who developed Contolism: which was both about Ere-ism (that Earth is sacred, and mankind was always meant to leave it and live in space) and Side-ism (all space colonies should be independent from the Earth Federation). He was also the creator of the Newtype theory, which believed that humans, who have needed to communicate with each other throughout time, would eventually develop a sixth sense to mentally communicate.

We want independence but we also want all people out of Earth and be miserable like us. That is crab mentality. Newtypes? Deikun was a philosopher not a scientist. And he says people all go to space so there will be Newtypes to lead humanity. This is BS.

>>15737648

How the FUCK else are you supposed to make an omelette?

>>15737648
Please teach me how to make an omelet by osmosis senpai san.

Also teach me how to drive humanity away from the earth when they're unwilling to collaborate.

>>15737661
>he doesn't use cartoned egg

>>15737665
What is that? Are you canadian?

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>>15737537
>Zeon wasn't a one world government
name the other autonomous nations in zeon territory anon

>>15737668
Nigga you can find that shit in walmart, guarantee you any omelette you get that isn't from some hodunk diner is made using cartoned yolk.

>>15737653
>Since the people of the colonies were considered to be part of a lower echelon of society than those living on Earth, Zeon's teachings were welcomed by the colonies, especially Side 3 (L2), which eventually appointed him leader of the Side. Zeon immediately announced the independence of Side 3, naming it the Republic of Zeon. The Earth Federation responded with the Bardot Policy, which halted all resources to the colony. Deikun responded by creating a colonial guard in case the Federation decided to invade the colony to stop their push for independence.

You want independence? Fine but you'll not get any benefits being part of the Federation? And they are saying they don't need Earth.

Zeeks started the arms race as there was no Federation spaces forces until they created the colonial guard.

>Known as the Earth Federation Space Forces, (or EFSF for short) it is the space branch of the Earth Federation Forces. The Earth Federation Space Force was created to counter the perceived military threat from the then Republic of Zeon, which had broken away from the Federation when it declared independence.

>egg in a carton
shiggity higgity

>>15737653
>so there will be Newtypes to lead humanity. This is BS.

He was proven right by every subsequent UC show.

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>>15737697
>>15737676
>>15737668
>>15737665
>>15737661
>>15737656
>>15737648
Before this assinie shit allowed to spread any further. To the Carton egg anon. How do you think eggs end up in the carton in the first place? Just because you get the end result doesn't mean someone else didn't crack the eggs. So you want all the rewards without putting in the effort.

>>15737699
Newtypes aren't enlightened leaders envisioned in fact they end up as either soldiers in war or despots.

>>15737449
(((Anaheim Electronics)))

>>15737723
Oh I forgot to mention even after thousands of years in space humans won't evolve into Newtypes as it a rare mutation. The more common mutations are becoming dwarves and losing muscle mass.

That is how stupid the philosophy Zeeks based their society on.

>>15737699
In subsequent UC shows we see that Newtypes who become leaders are invariably dictators who use their psychic powers to control people's minds. On top of that, most Newtypes we see get drawn into wars started by Zeon and die, ensuring they don't pass on their genes and become steadily more rare over time. Being a Newtype becomes a harmful mutation that makes you less likely to survive, and natural selection ensures it goes away.

>>15737449
Feddies because their souls are weighed down by gravity

>>15737449
Zeon.
Back then Feds also face the overpopulation problem, and their first plan was to create colonies as some sort of proto human colonization on space. Switch the feds to Zeon, I'm pretty sure they just gather everyone in a tight container ship and blast them off to the sun.

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>>15737449
Both. They were evil adultz

>>15737653
Nigga named his cat after Satan. Space makes you crazy.

Zeon are the noblest people in the Gundam universe, and the worst led.

>>15738158
>gladly replaced the air of millions of other spacenoids with nerve gas
>noble

>>15737449
>Who was in the wrong?

Those that started a war by killing half the human population. In other words Zeon scum.

>>15738164
that's why they're the worst led, zeon leadership doesn't deserve the noble zeon troops under their command

>>15738187
None of those troops objected to nerve gassing their fellow Spacenoids and dropping the resulting gigantic coffins on the Earth they were supposedly trying to preserve. They didn't even blink. They weren't noble, just full of pomp and circumstance.

>>15738217
they didn't even know what it was

>>15738217
This.
When Feds commission Titans to terrorize the colonies, almost half Feds troop rebel and create AUEG to counter the Titan threat.

While Zeon sent their troop to gas fellow spacenoids and their soldier blindly obey and when the deed were done they're were all turned into emo space pirate,

>>15738232
You're telling me you get given orders of "go into this colony, fire this missile you've never seen before into the center of it, and leave", and you somehow think that missile *isn't* some kind of WMD? Why are you even firing missiles into other colonies in the first place when you're declaring war on Earth?

Accepting the claim that Cima didn't know she was about to commit a warcrime requires believing that Cima is breathtakingly stupid, and accepting the even more ridiculous claim that none of the Zeon soldiers doing the hundreds of gas attacks that killed over 5.5 billion people realized they were committing warcrimes suggests that Side 3's air was already full of nerve gas, because they could not possibly be that stupid on that wide of a scale unless they all had brain damage.

>>15738369
because that's the way the writers wrote them. these aren't real people. they're fictional characters in a story where their behavior makes no sense because they were shoehorned into doing some villain shit because they're the villains in an unsophisticated story

>>15738376
Their behavior makes sense, it just doesn't make sense if you also try to claim that they're poor misunderstood noble soldiers who were tricked by the mean old Zabis. Plenty of people have done horrible shit during wars, especially soldiers of fascist regimes.

>>15737710

http://www.care2.com/greenliving/10-egg-free-omelette-recipes.html

>>15737724

> the people to blame are a group that wasn't actually involved in the entire affair and wasn't even imagined at the time of production, only getting a history as an uninvolved organisation with no manufacturing ties to either later on

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Spacenoids aren't people, they even think so themselves. Therefore killing a spacenoid isn't murder and isn't wrong

>>15737699
>He was proven right
The funny thing with newtypes is it is sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

He predicted a phenomenon, so when one arose before any testing even happened everyone jumped on that calling it newtype. If it was like greco where everyone became a skeleton they'd have called that newtype. Everyone was too busy trying to support or denounce an ideology to actually think how correct he was.

If Zeon hadn't died and the origins version of him is canon he'd likely be too much of a perfectionist too accept those newtypes as perfect enough.

>>15737449
(((Vist Foundation)))

>>15737449
Zeon. They were the aggressor, starting a war that resulted in the deaths of billions and being the ones responsible for most of those deaths. Did the Federation do some stuff that wasn't good? Sure. But they never did anything on the level of what Zeon did. Not even close. The fact that the Federation was unfriendly to Zeon in their trade policies doesn't hold a candle to the murder of billions of civilians by Zeon. It's like if someone calls you an asshole and you respond by murdering twenty people, some of whom had nothing to do with it. Sure, it was impolite of him to call you an asshole out of the blue like that, but that doesn't justify violence, and it certainly doesn't justify violence against innocent bystanders beyond the two of you.

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>>15737699
Every subsequent show proves that he was wrong. Newtypes aren't a magic pill that will solve human conflict through perfect communication and understanding. There is no magic pill that will solve human conflict. There is no permanent solution. Every crisis is followed by another, and another one after that. That's the way life works. The Great War? The war to end war? Eclipsed by a second, even bloodier war that followed. And when that was over, was that the end? Nope, after that was the Cold War.

There is no permanent fix. All you can do is fight each battle as it comes. You give it your all, fend off the end for another day, and then repeat, until you grow old or fall along the way, and then all you can do is hope that there will be more people following after you to keep on fighting the good fight.

It's a hard thing for some people to face. It certainly seems daunting, which is why magic pills make for such appealing ideas. People want to believe that there's an easy solution, even (especially) when there isn't. But really, if you want to point out someone in UC who is plainly right, it's Bright Noa and Londo Bell. Each war they win is followed by another, each crisis they averted is followed by another, but they keep on going. Londo Bell takes horrific casualties, in Char's Counterattack literally the entire Londo Bell mobile suit corps dies. Yet a few years later, they're back at it, fighting the good fight, because in the end that's all you can do. The alternative is simply to lie down and die, and fuck that.

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>>15738436
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWhMO4vMBfM

>>15738460
>Fought for the people who are afraid of him
>The feds hated him but still he fought for them
>Believer in the human strength even though he is one the most gifted Newtype
>Willingly put himself in between an Asteroid just to prove a point to char that despite everything he said about how humanities in general are horrible people that needed to be punish, humans will band together despite their differences in color and ideology to protect what is sacred to them
>Transcended into a being that went beyond the timeitself

Why Amuro is the greatest of em all /m/?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqxcFvk3w-s

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>>15737449
The Feddies may have been incompetent and malicious on a large scale but nothing they did compares to the continued idiocy and mustache twirling evil of the zeeks.

>>15738158
They enable their leadership. If the Earth Federation had some balls, they should have wiped out ever man, woman, child, and space goat in Zeon. You don't win a war by being nice, you win by killing every single one of your enemies without mercy or reservation. They are no longer humans, but cockroaches to be stepped on.

>>15739100
Death is too merciful. They should have stuck them in gulags and sliwly tortured them to death. Examples must be made.

I wish hiro would colony drop this shit show of a fucking board already

>>15737521
Go to bed Gihren you're dead

>>15737449
Tomino was wrong to make this shit

>>15737449
EF would be your typical vaguely evil corrupt one world government, but Zeon just went full retard.

>>15738369
Because it's the military and you follow orders because you don't know what the broader picture is, you don't have all the information and you're part of a much larger machine. This is especially the case in the dehumanizing situation of firing ordnance down range at big, non-human targets.

You also have trust in your chain of command that they're not going to do anything crazy. Also after a few months of my time in Afghanistan, I'd have gladly nuked or gassed the place, so there's that too.

>>15738400
Get right the heck out of here with this sort of tomfoolery.

>>15739344
This isn't the same as wanting to nuke Afghanistan after a few months of fighting there. This is like being told you're going to go to war with Afghanistan in 1999, so you get deployed to Kentucky and you're told to gas everyone there so you can throw their empty houses at Afghanistan.

>>15739537

He asked for an omelette without breaking any eggs, so there it is. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You can also technically "make" an omelette without breaking a n egg by cooking it inside the shell; you just have to break the shell to eat it. You could also, at least theoretically clone or otherwise replicate egg matter using various methods and make an omelette from the artificial egg without breaking a shell to make the actual omelette since the only broken egg in the chain happened some ways back and was for the purposes of research, not specifically to make an omelette.

>>15739572
given how terrible every campaign against Afghanistan has gone ever maybe we need some outside the box thinking like that

>>15739344

Yea, you can't exactly go "what's in this bomb?" in the military. You're given a mission to drop a bomb and that's basically it. You're not generally told what's in the bomb, regardless of whether it's secret or not and while you might sometimes recognize the bomb and know what's in it because of it's construction or appearance, even if you don't the military aren't advertising it as "secret" in any fashion and you don't have someone you can walk up to and ask whats in it so that you can be comfortable with the mission. Even if you did ask your direct commander, if you're a private or pilot your commander probably doesn't know either, and you'll just be told to shut up and do what your told, not have your commander go "hmmm, that is a good question, let's find out so that we can both be sure what's happening".

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Zeeks have the best cars

>>15737449
What if Zeon dropped a giant egg on the earth?
Can't win a war without breaking a few eggs.

Name one reason Humanity SHOULDN'T live in space. Seriously, what disadvantages does living in a Colony (in peacetime) have over living on the Earth?

>>15739778
It's a hell of a lot easier living in the environment that your species adapted to deal with than trying to carve out an existence in the cold vacuum of space, which is pretty inhospitable when it comes to human habitation. Space is dangerous.

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>>15739778
Any malfunction could potentially kill you
Small area to visit
No historical buildings

>>15738482

> Willingly put himself in between an Asteroid just to prove a point to char that despite everything he said about how humanities in general are horrible people that needed to be punish, humans will band together despite their differences in color and ideology to protect what is sacred to them

That is not why he started pushing back Axis. On the contrary, he explicitly and successfully pushes everyone away when they try to band together, shouting about how what they're doing is reckless and suicidal. He did it because he couldn't NOT do something, even if that something was stupid and probably not going to make any difference. Bright has the exact same attitude, and suggests that they have to push the Nahel Argama in to Axis to slow it down; only he's over ridden by his men, while Amuro can do it. He never even mentions wanting to show how people will band together despite differences in color and ideology to protect those things they hold sacred, only wanting to show people the light of the human heart. Which he does, because after Axis starts to move away the same light that caused that miracle briefly encircles the Earth; it's just that no-one else has a clue what they're looking at. Which is a very Tomino moment. Amuro causes a miracle and shows people how brilliant a human spirit can be but no-one who sees it even understands, and most who do don't even care and only see it as a beautiful but transient thing they immediately forget about. The ending does still illustrate how people can band together despite their differences mind; it's just that that wasn't Amuro's intention.

>>15739798
Tomino is a fucking hack

>>15737449
>hue hue vs nazis

>>15737669
That's not how nation states work.

You might as well say that Japan is a one world government.

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>>15737449
>(((federation))) is literally huezil
>((((((zion)))))) is literally kekistan

Pic related was the only righteous space reich.

>Jupiter is the true evil all along
>Jupiter
>Ju
>Jews
Holy shit Tomino was redpilled all this time

>>15737537

It's no more inherently evil than one nation government, or any other "big" government really. Which is to say, not at all, because while big government certainly has it's limitations and problems with beaurocracy and ambivalence to smaller groups, small governments too have limitations and problems; they just have different ones, not necessarily bigger ones. Small government often has problems dealing with bigger problems or organisations for instance, since they generally don't have the resources or political power to affect them and while they can respond quickly to issues, their response isn't nearly as measured or controllable. It's just a matter of picking your poison really.

That said, the Federation weren't technically a one world government anymore by the time of 0079 anyway, since even if you want to stick solely to the Earthsphere Side 6 was by then a separate government; one that the EF had allowed to split relatively peacefully and with no economic sanctions or restrictions, since unlike Zeon the EF didn't view their leadership as unstable. If you ventured out further though Mars and Jupiter probably had their own leadership by then too, so politics was evolving on to a new scale with planetary governments instead of continental/super-national governments like a lot of governments now are or national/regional ones like we had until a century or so ago.

>>15741511

> lizard vagina with barbs surrounded by wings

What a weird flag.

>>15739688

I'm a diehard Toyotafag, but I was sorely disappointed that they allied themselves with filthy zeeks.

>>15737449

Everyone in a high position of power is to blame.

>>15739734

>CCA
>Char drops a humongous, colony-sized banana peel on earth
>The unconventional size prevents the EF forces from stopping it
>Heck, they don't even know wtf they should do. It's beyond unexpected
>People think Char is fucking with them
>Banana peel falls on earth
>Over the following weeks it rots and stinks up the entire planet
>Humans leave earth for space
>The peel becomes fertilizer and helps restore the earth
>Char wins

>>15739734
>a few eggs

Zeon was less "break a few eggs" and more "crashed an aircraft carrier into the eggs shelf in a supermarket".

It's like calling the Solar Ray "a torchlight".

>>15737521
>Char tried to do the same thing
Except it wasn't the same thing. Zabis wanted to rule the Earth Sphere under their control, and Char wanted to make Earth uninhabitable so people would be forced to move to Space. This is the key difference between Char's Neo Zeon and the preceding Zeon wars. Two different goals. The only thing the Zabis were right about was developing the military and technological capacity of Zeon for the inevitable war, but they even fucked that up by
1.) Letting Dr. Minovsky defect
2.) Develop a chain of command where the commanders are more likely to sabotage each other than work together in an attempt to garner favor with them
3.) Not standardizing military production until near the War's end
4.) Killing civilian spacenoids to drop colonies which alienated some of their support and lead to General Revil being able to escape captivity
5.) Not suing for peace and keeping their space conquests as soon as they realized the Federation wasn't going to go for unconditional surrender

>>15737613
I feel the closest person to Bernie would probably be Blex Forer

>>15742640

The fact military action never worked for any Zeon would suggest that wasn't in fact the right call.

>>15741935
Side 6 was only independent because Zeon helped them to overthrow their provisional government and the Federation didn't care because they still had people in there they knew would be able to influence the Side and turn the favor towards them. It's how they keep on getting to build all these secret military contracts by Side 6 even though Side 6 is supposedly neutral. After the war Side 6 is actually pretty quickly reintegrated into the Earth Federation A better example would be how Africa is still undergoing a continuous jihad against the Federation, and recently in Thunderbolt there's this whole South Seas Alliance that's split off from the Federation. Both are likely a result of the loss of control of many regions due to the war with Zeon and the Federation is trying to regain control over all of these areas

>>15741935
>If you ventured out further though Mars and Jupiter probably had their own leadership by then too

Does anybody even live on Mars in the Universal Century timeline? I only know of the Oldsmobile Zeon.

>>15742652
Zeon's biggest problem is that they always have limited resources. Their wars have to be short and quick otherwise they will get overwhelmed. They should've gone for peace at Antarctica even if it didn't mean unconditional surrender and they just stuck to ruling space, but the Zabi's, especially Gihren's, ambition is to rule over the entire Earth Sphere, and that's their downfall imo

>>15742675

Zeon helped Side 6 achieve independence, but Riah told them to fuck off despite it because they didn't really want their help and knew that Zeon was crazypants. Riah maintained good relations with the Federation, and testing weapons there is a good show of that. Having mutual agreements in place is not the same thing as being controlled by someone though, and there's nothing to suggest Riah was only a puppet government of the EF as the Republic of Zeon were after 0079. Ireland basically had the same thing in World War II. Irish people regularly fought in the British army, there were several examples of covert cooperation but Ireland itself remained neutral. There's also no indication that Riah folded back in to the Earth Federation. It wouldn't be surprising, but I've never seen anyone post a source showing it happened.

>>15742698
I'm taking this with a grain of salt but the gundam wiki page says otherwise. http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Riah_Republic
http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Universal_Century_Locations#Side_6
>It was annexed by the Earth Federation after the one year war. During the reorganization of Sides in U.C. 0084, Side 6 was moved to L5.
Anyways to respond to this comment
>testing weapons there is a good show of that. Having mutual agreements in place is not the same thing as being controlled by someone
Riah declared itself neutral at the beginning of the war to avoid getting entangled in the OYW, it was kind of a big deal that they showed impartiality to both sides in exchange for their territory avoiding conflict according to the Antarctic Treaty. All the agreements to do weapons testing was in secret as it broke Riah's neutrality in the war and ultimately brought them into the conflict in the last few days of the war

The feds where the ones in the wrong when it all started, but then zeon went above and beyond until the feds where nice guys in comparison.

Seriously, The shit zeon did and the logic behind it is sickening.

>>15742831

> I'm taking this with a grain of salt but the gundam wiki page says otherwise.

It doesn't include a source though, and most of the sources for notes on Riah are from 0080, which says nothing of the kind. Hence my scepticism.

> All the agreements to do weapons testing was in secret as it broke Riah's neutrality in the war and ultimately brought them into the conflict in the last few days of the war

There's a difference between declaring neutrality and actually abiding by neutrality. Even most of the nations that have declared neutrality played favorites in war at some point or other, not because they were being controlled or otherwise forced in to doing so but because they valued the appearance of neutrality but still wanted to help out another faction despite it. That's why I noted the example of Ireland, which wanted to maintain neutrality for several reasons but also to help the allies despite it. Mostly they just didn't want to be seen cooperating with Britain openly given their recent history, but also because they had only recently become an actual nation after centuries of conflict and wanted time to stabilise their economy and government rather than diving straight in to another war.

>>15742866
>The feds where the ones in the wrong when it all started,

Feds didn't outright nuke the sides, or drop a chunk of Australia on side 3. When Zeon declare independence and started to mobilizing its troops and purging all Deikun supporters and replace it with Zabi fanatics and act all hostile towards the Federation, the logical way is to sanction them. If Feds are bad and at fault, they would've storm Side 3 with nukes and load it with its unlimited supplies of soldiers the moment they declare independence.

If Zeon acted like Side 3 was, the Feds simply ignore it and maybe move on to create more space colonies or perhaps started to colonize Mars.

>>15742984
>Feds didn't outright nuke the sides
except they did

>>15743043

When?

>>15743061
Battle of Loum. Both sides ended up playing nuclear football iirc

>>15737449
The Zabi's, and Char were in the wrong...

>>15743254

Have we ever actually seen the battle of Loum?

>>15737724

This, they sold weapons to all sides and kept the federation allowing zeek remnant bases on earth into UC 90's

Face it, they're as evil as the zabi's

>>15743043
Remember when Feds declare war on Zeon and launch its nuke on the glorious and noble people on side 3. me neither

>>15743264

The first episode of MS Igloo shows part of it

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>>15737461

>>15744578
I really hate it when you do that.

Nazi Germany vs Brazilian Monarch? Brazilian Monarch handily.

>>15737537

This

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUIcCyPOA30

>>15737449
the one on the left

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Feddies.

>>15742676
I'm also curious about that.

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>>15737589
What? Zeon is totally right wing. I'm a hardcore feddie and I fucking hate Trump.

>>15737449
Nippon Sunrise

>>15744618
Yes.

>>15752700
You're AEUG then.

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>>15737613
>because his base is essentially a personality cult
Or they just enjoy liberal tears. And will continue to support as long as it makes your jimmy's rustled

>>15756102
>basing your politics entirely around getting a reaction from the opposing side

>>15747832
>Brazilian Monarch
no, Federative Republic of Brazil

>>15756422
It's like that gif of Arnold from the Magic School Bus taking his helmet off in space and freezing.

>>15756102
I'm honestly starting to believe that history will end up recording that the United States collapsed, "for the lulz."

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>>15752700
Welcome to the Anti Earth Union Group. Here's your complimentary chicken.

>>15737449
Technically Zeon and ill tell you why
>Original leader (Daikun) was willing to work it out diplomatically so war would be avoided
>Zabis show up and power game him
>Everything was thrown out the window by that fat faggot when he killed Daikun
>His son was a literal nazi
>other non relevant son died
>his daughter was a lunatic
>Dozel was cool did nothing wrong
>Other son was a trap
>Dropped a colony and used nukes to kill shit loads
The EF also did a lot of fucked up shit too before the war started

>>15756517
Better than it collapsing for whatever other reasons might be the eventual cause.

ANTI-ZEON IS CODEWORD FOR ANTI-NEWTYPE
DIVERSITY IS CODEWORD FOR NEWTYPE GENOCIDE

>>15738400
>Vegan
>LaughingCooks,jpeg
Next you're going to tell me Soy milk is actually milk. It's a juice you heathen. Also corn bread is not a bread, it's a cake.

>>15742984
>All this Federation Dog revisionism.
Side 3 declared Independence and the Federation responded by isolating them with sanctions and massively increasingly the military with Year 60 Armament Reinforcement Plan. Both acts were done before Deikum was dead or the Side 3's natonal guard was reorganized into a free standing military.

I'm sure the Feddies would have attacked Side 3 with nukes if they could. But Zeon's 3 second declaration destroyed every Side the Feddies could have used as a rally point to mass their forces for an attack on Side 3. So it's another reason why the destruction of Side 1, 2 and 4 were necessary at the onset of the war.

>>15742698
>>15742675
Side 6 was a proto Anahiem electronics where they played both sides to make a profit. And because of lot of tech and resources were only developed at Side 6, neither Zeon or the Federation was willing to push anything that might alienate them. It was only at the end of the war when Side 6 violated their neutrality and the Antarctic Treaty that Zeon was the first to stop putting up with their shit and were preparing to nuke them.

>>15756907
>>15756517
>Thinking the system is going to collapse because of Mad King Donald.
The institutions are holding strong to keep him in check and if he has committed crimes. All the screams of 'fake news' and facebook produced state run propaganda won't save him. Of course there's the issue of the Russians attack the US elections again, especially since the Department of Homeland Security is not even paying attention to the previous attacks or attempting to find ways to stop them in the future, and the Republicans in congress defunded the Election Security Agency. So it depends on how much the Republicans want to continue to dabble in Treason to win in 2018.

>>15760347

> laughingcooks.jpeg

If you don't want to recognize vegan options for some reason there's still the points in >>15739588 about making an omelette without breaking it by cooking it inside the shell or just replicating the egg yellow in some manner.

> the Federation responded by isolating them with sanctions and massively increasingly the military with Year 60 Armament Reinforcement Plan. Both acts were done before Deikum was dead or the Side 3's natonal guard was reorganized into a free standing military.

But not before Side 3 organized a militia in the "Colony Republican Guard". Both parties are complicit and neither are innocent, both reacting to the other's actions. Zeon formed a military because they wanted to defend themselves, but the Federation presumably took it as grounds for a possible assault and responded in kind by beefing up their military (which was outdated till then by the sounds of things).

> I'm sure the Feddies would have attacked Side 3 with nukes if they could

Then why didn't they? The 3 second warning doesn't remotely explain it, since there's no reason they'd wait till the other faction declares open war to wait to nuke the opposition if they actually wanted to nuke them, instead of opening hostilities (and possibly finishing them) by nuking Side 3 first.

> because of lot of tech and resources were only developed at Side 6, neither Zeon or the Federation was willing to push anything that might alienate them.

It's almost like providing resources other factions might value instead of antagonizing people is a good idea. As soon as Deikun died and Degwin took over Side 3 began a heavy push towards militarization, and even before it the few notes we have indicate that as soon as they declared independence they formed a militia; indicating that they put value in the military even then and the whole thing highlights Zeon's mistake. They pushed for conflict, started one and it didn't work out. Side 6 split violently (as opposed to Side 3's simple declaration) but as soon as they were split, started working with the Federation and providing things in a manner that meant economic sanctions would be a bad idea and they lasted longer because of it. You can say that the "3 Second Warning" and destroying the other colonies was a good idea all you want, but no war at all is canonically a better idea.

>>15760347
>the destruction of Side 1, 2 and 4 were necessary at the onset of the war.
No, just stop already. There's literally no good reason why those sides had to be destroyed. I can agree with most of the rest you said, but the destruction of those sides is indefensible

>>15760407
>It's almost like providing resources other factions might value instead of antagonizing people is a good idea.
You mention Side 6 was split, but omit that the split was between Zeon supporters and Federation supporters. The only reason Side 6 was independent was because of Zeon. Side 6 was a battle for influence between Federation and Zeon, that was still ongoing when OYW began. Side 6 declared neutrality to avoid OYW. This neutrality led to Side 6 being able develop technology with a lower likelihood of it being discovered and destroyed by one side or another. But as far as we know they only started illegally supporting with the Federation in the latter days of the war, when the Federation looked the winning side. Side 6 only got independent as a proxy leading up to OYW, thrived in conditions specific to OYW and was annexed to the Federation soon after OYW was won, so idk why people keep bring it up as a counterexample.
>As soon as Deikun died and Degwin took over Side 3 began a heavy push towards militarization, and even before it the few notes we have indicate that as soon as they declared independence they formed a militia; indicating that they put value in the military even then and the whole thing highlights Zeon's mistake. They pushed for conflict
Most of this doesn't really follow if you're trying to rebut this>>15760347
>Side 3 declared Independence and the Federation responded by isolating them with sanctions and massively increasingly the military with Year 60 Armament Reinforcement Plan. Both acts were done before Deikum was dead or the Side 3's natonal guard was reorganized into a free standing military.
Federation clearly pushed for escalating militarization first. The existence of a militia or a national guard on its own can't really be seen as a real threat, so they only have limited capability as defensive institutions, and the Federation to start a full ramping up of its military in addition to sanctions is in no way a proper response.

>>15760688

> omit that the split was between Zeon supporters and Federation supporters

Zeon helped but were then kicked out almost immediately despite their help. And it was only help according to the same sources, which say that nationalist forces in Side 6 independently siezed control of local military forces and Side 3 backed them by blockading EFSF reinforcements. There was no battle for influence, because Riah declared neutrality almost immediately and had been independent for a nearly two years by the time the One Year War began.

> This neutrality led to Side 6 being able develop technology with a lower likelihood of it being discovered and destroyed

Zeon had been independent from the Federation for 21 years by the time of the One Year War and despite economic sanctions developed new technology in the form of Minovsky tech; they just concentrated solely on military technology as far as we know and used it to iniate a war instead of trying to use that techology to re-open trading. Ecomonic sanctions and independence give a fairly low probability for discovery or destruction, since you don't generally bother sanctioning people you're about to fight.

> Side 6 [was] annexed to the Federation soon after the OYW was won

Prove it. Show me one source that says anything to that effect, because people have been claiming this with years but never cited any kind of source to say that it's true. Even if it was, Riah still lasted longer than Zeon in reality since while Zeon was technically an independent nation until UC100, they were only ever a puppet governement after 0079.

> The existence of a militia or a national guard on it's own can't really be seen as a real threat

If someone splits from you and one of their first actions is to establish their own military then it looks like an aggressive act. It doesn't even matter if they're not planning on using it for assault, it looks like grounds for one.

>>15737449
Mostly Delaz and his analpained circlejerk buddies.

>>15760526
No, you stop, and learn how wars are won. This argument has been tread over multiple times but for your benefit we'll recap so you'll at least have to begrudgingly admit the Side's destruction were necessary if Zeon hoped to be victorious.

>1. Side 1, 2 and 4 were all Federation allied Sides, with Side 1 holding the Feddie's space capital.
Side 3 spent 20 years lobbying for the other Sides to also declare their independence or at least push for autonomy, all except for Side 6 opted to stay with the Federation. This makes them enemies. If Zeon just declared war and did not deal with the allied Sides, it would not only be like kicking a hornet's nest, it would be like every hornet nest in a 100 mile radius awakening and going after you.

>2. Every aspect of these Sides could be used against Side 3.
Do the Federation more manpower? (Colony population is recruited) More resources for the war effort? (Food and technology of the Colony goes to the Federation's war effort) Means to produce ships and weapons? (Machine shops and factories go towards the Federation war effort) Spaceports and bases for their troops to prepare for attacks on Side 3? (Each colony already has garrisons and could easily construct space ports for to deal with Federation fleets.) Even allowing a single Side to survive would mean the Federation could fold it into their war effort, bring the war much closer to Side 3 while increase their own battle strength which was already overwhelmingly stronger than Zeon.


>3. Occupations never work and be a waste of resources for Zeon.
The bleeding hearts would have you think Zeon could wage a 'wins the hearts and minds' campaign where they just take out the Feddies garrisons and run an occupation of each colony in the side and slowly win them over. This would end in a failure. Mainly because we have in universe proof of a benevolent occupation failing. (continued)

Look at F91 where the Crossbone Vanguard invade Frontier. They come in saying 'we mean you no harm, we're here to liberate you.' Meanwhile the Feddies forces have no problem with collateral damage or using colony children as human shields. Yet when all was said and done, the colonists still set up guerilla cells to resist the Vanguard, why? Because people don't like being occupied even if the occupiers are benevolent. Furthermore the logistics of sustaining an occupying force and installing a sympathetic provisional government on not just one colony, not just one Side, but three separate Sides is something Zeon was not equipped to do. Furthermore Zeon can't just set up blockades at every colony by stationing a Musai at the main spacesport and sealing it up. There are auxiliary docks and countless amount of airlocks that the colonists could use. And going out of the way to destroy them all would only alienate the colonists further. Finally, if an 'occupied' colony is liberated what do you think is going to happen? All the problems from #2 with force multipliers now because the colonists want payback against Zeon.

So we have gone over why the Feddie allied Sides posed a threat to Side 3. Why they couldn't be negotiated with to remain neutral. And most importantly, why an occupation would fail. Which leaves the only option being their destruction.

>>15760406
Simulacrums =/= the original
You are not making an omelet without an egg. Look up the definition.

Also if you think setting up a defense force is an act of provocation, you're just spoiling for a fight like the Federation was with the two decade long saber rattling which lead to the outbreak of the One Year War. Because the Federation by nature is a bureaucratic clusterfuck that is to corrupt and incompetent to do anything unless it threatens their livelihood. IF the Federation had a point of attack early in the war at Side 3, they would have used it. They never got a chance though.

>>15763186

> Simulacrums =/= the original
> He says while using a literal simulacrum machine (a screen) to participate in a simulacrum of a discussion (a thread) on a simulacrum of a public forum (a board) through a simulacrum of a human brain (a computer)

You're right, a simulacrum is not the original; sometimes it's just plain better. Much of technology is an attempt to create an artificial version of something seen in nature, engines for instance being an artificial muscle and having out competed humans and beasts of burden in multiple fields for decades, centuries in some cases. Medicine is the same way, and most treatments use a copy (simulacrum as you put it, even though the word doesn't really apply) of something from nature artificially produced to cure a disease. Food is no exception to this, even if it's taken longer to get off the ground and only really taking off recently. Lab grown meats are proceeding through testing, and while initial efforts didn't taste great, more recent ones are indistinguishable from natural meat; because they're lab grown though they won't have pesticides or contaminants in them, meaning they'd actually be healthier in some ways. Lots of people are also only alive because of simulated food, given that bottle feeding is responsible for saving lives and is basically just a lab grown copy of breast milk, nutritionally identical to maternal milk.

It's not like replacing ingredients isn't a common technique in cooking either. Much of the world's actual variety of cooking is simply people in a new place looking to make something they used to make in another region and no longer have the traditional ingredients for, replacing them with something closer to hand. Entire schools of cooking rest on that idea, from Cajun cooking to the variety seen in curries over the years. Vegetable oil replaced animal fat in most recipes about 100 years ago thanks to Proctol & Gamble, butter is often replaced by margarine or another butter substitute. Acting like a recipe is sacrosanct and anything that violates it isn't real is basically denying the actual culture of cooking in the first place.

> if you think setting up a defense force is an act of provocation, you're just spoiling for a fight

A militia is literally just an informal military. Just because you call yourself a "defense force" doesn't mean you'll only be used for defense, and if one of your first acts after declaring independence is to start arming it looks like you're preparing for a fight yourself.

> IF the Federation had a point of attack early in the war at Side 3, they would have used it.

So what you're saying is they would only have attacked Side 3 after a declaration of war and wouldn't have attacked them out of the blue with no warning? I realize you'll deny that, but the Federation seemed content with economic sanctions for 21 years and there is no indication they wanted to nuke Side 3 before Zeon declared war on them. If they wanted to nuke Side 3 unprovoked, they had more than enough time to do it.

>>15764766
>>15764770
>A bunch of tl;dr.
Just to disprove you. You know what they call fake breast milk? Formula. Why? Because it's not breast milk. Enjoy your vegan atrocity.

>You don't use a defense force just for defense.
Your brain is being weighed down by Earth's gravity if you think a militia or defense force is anywhere near a free standing army. Which Zeon reorganized themselves into after the Federation ramped up their military.

Also, the Feddies didn't launch a preemptive strike because they are a corrupt, incompetent and completely reactionary government. But after Zeon did start the war, they couldn't afford to allow the Federation to have any opening to attack Side 3. Which is why they systematically destroyed the three Sides that would pose the greatest threat to them where the Federation could use them for reasons stated above.

>>15767962

> You know what they call fake breast milk? Formula. Why? Because it's not breast milk.

Most formula is breast milk actually, it's just breast milk from a cow; breast milk that's been altered to be nutritionally safe for a human child after collection. Formula can refer to any non-human milk for a child, but is commonly used instead to refer to it in powdered, concentrate or whatever form before home preparation. It's generally just called milk when it's been prepared and put in a bottle, and if you saw formula milk in a bottle beside breast milk in a bottle (also a common practice by the way) they'd be indistinguishable.

> Enjoy your vegan atrocity.

Not a vegan, never eaten vegan, not interested in eating vegan.

> Your brain is being weighed down by Earth's gravity if you think a militia or defense force is anywhere near a free standing army.

A free standing army is just a professional army i.e. full time, paid army. A militia can be converted in to a standing army simply by dint of hiring and paying them with no difference in equipment, training or regulation. Militias are often just as dangerous as actual armies, and there's no reason a militia can't be used offensively for assault instead of defensively.

> the Feddies didn't launch a preemptive strike because they are a corrupt, incompetent and completely reactionary government.

So they were never going to launch an attack until someone attacked them? Glad we agree.

>>15768106
An udder is not a breast, so again your asinine example falls apart from the onset. You need eggs to make omelets, you can put in all the things in the world that are not eggs and claim it's an omelet, it's not an omelet though.

>Militias are often just as dangerous as actual armies
Post this on /k/, they could use a laugh.

>So they were never going to launch an attack until someone attacked them?
Nice putting words in my mouth, the Federation has been shown to take the initiative under certain circumstances, (see the Titans) They are the Federation, deal with it. It's just in the situation between Zeon and the Federation, it was reaching a breaking point so Zeon needed to strike first to have any chance of victory. Which is why they first targeted any Sides the Federation could mobilize against the Side 3 and then attempted to destroy the Federation GHQ with a colony drop.

>>15768207

> An udder is not a breast

I never said it was, only that cows also have milk. A breast doesn't give milk either; it's just a muscle. It's the mammary gland inside both a breast and an udder that is responsible for milk, and both a mammary gland and milk are common to all mammals. It's literally the reason they're called mammals in the first place. The liquid expelled from a mammal's mammary gland is always called milk too.

> you can put in all the things in the world that are not eggs and claim it's an omelet, it's not an omelet though.

If it looks like an omelet and tastes like an omelet, it is an omelet. That's all the criteria that you need to call something an omelet. If you eat something that looks like an omelet and think it tastes like one and never find out it had no egg that doesn't mean you didn't have an omelet, it just means that the person making it successfully replicated the egg in some manner.

> Post this on /k/, they could use a laugh.

Why would I care what their opinion on the matter is? The definition of a standing army rests solely on the members being full time soldiers, while a militia is made up of irregular soldiers. If they want to debate that more power to 'em.

> Nice putting words in my mouth.

So are the Federation completely reactionary as you said, or not?

> (see the Titans) They are the Federation, deal with it.

I never said they weren't.

> It's just the situation between Zeon and the Federation, it was reaching a breaking point

According to who? There's no evidence anywhere that tensions had reach some kind of boiling point. The only timeline in existence says the Federation were mostly ignoring Zeon with nearly a decade, even after the 60 year armament plan. Even when Dr. Minovsky defected they didn't actually do anything for years, and their only explicit move in nearly a decade before the One Year War was to initiate Project V to make their own mobile suits; something Zeon had been working on with years.

>>15768106
>A militia can be converted in to a standing army simply by dint of hiring and paying them with no difference in equipment, training or regulation. Militias are often just as dangerous as actual armies, and there's no reason a militia can't be used offensively for assault instead of defensively.

To add to this, just because something is called a militia does not preclude them from being as well armed or equipped as a full standing army. In Gundam terms, look at ZAFT. They call themselves a militia yet they have their own fleet of warships, army, etc. Hell, they even have their own military training academies!

In real life terms, look at the Japanese Self Defense Forces. They're technically not a military but in practical terms they're one of the most advanced and well equipped militaries on the planet.

Zeon was full stop in the wrong for the war.

The Federation does have some legit criticism with not giving the colonies more Independence after the colony project was winding down.

Unicorn even addresses this, the Federation was needed at the time to provide a one world government to build the colonies as Earth was in a do-or-die situation. However keeping power over them was the wrong way to go about things. It led to resentment and eventually people like the Zabis and Dikuns were able to get into power with their ideologies.

This doesn't excuse the multitude of war crimes that Zeon performed during the war. Especially when other more viable paths were open to them. (Like taking Luna 2 instead of dropping Island iffish.)

>>15768388
This is a good point, nothing really states that tensions were boiling before the outbreak of war in January 3rd. The Federation was keen to just ignore Zeon and work on their development of project V.

If anything the start of the war make Zeon even more of the aggressor. They attack when they didn't have to and went for the Blitzkrieg early victory.

>>15768388
It's not breast milk, which still scuttles your entire point.
>If it looks like an omelet and tastes like an omelet, it is an omelet.
Hey, an association fallacy. You should post this on /ck/, I want to see their reaction. Or are you going to tell me everything from the Agaricus genus is edible using your logic?

>Why would I care what their opinion on the matter is?
Because they know more about the difference of a free standing military and a militia. Who by definition are untrained civilians who enter military service. If you think they can be, or are on par with regulars, just look at the Revolutionary War and see how when used in conventional warfare, the militia were seen as a laughing stock who ran at the first sight of battle.

You make this mistake of equating the government, with the military within the Federation. The government is always reactionary, the military has proven they will take the initiative and provoke conflict. (See the Titans.) Zeon couldn't afford to have that occur so they struck first in a shock and awe campaign to the cut the head off the snake. That timeline talked about how the Federation did two massive military build ups and held multiple navel reviews (Which are done as a show of force towards your enemies.), and Side 6 declaring Independence with Zeon's help was seen as a major threat to the Federation because Zeon was able to peel another Side away from them. The Feddies made the best of the situation to not drive Side 6 into Zeon's camp by treating them magnanimously as opposed to slapping them with huge sanctions and saber rattling. You don't continue to build up weapons just for show. Sooner or later the Feddies would have blinked and attacked Side 3. Which Zeon would lose, so they shrewdly struck first and attempted to end the war quickly before Revil sabotaged the peace talks and dragged the war out.

>>15770077
Forgot my trip. Although it's not like you can't tell it's me.

Enjoy the triple dubs.

File: This_is_a_Militia.jpg (716KB, 3029x2145px) Image search: [Google]

716KB, 3029x2145px

>>15770077
>He thinks all militias are like the fucking Minutemen

He says this in a world where groups like Hezbollah exist that can hold their own against the Israeli military. Or any number of those terrorist militias in the Middle East and Africa that tend to be better trained and more disciplined than the corrupt, third world militaries they fight against.

Even in Gundam there are several instances where militias are able to beat regular and even elite regular military forces (the AEUG and League Militaire). Hell, look at ZAFT, who, as someone pointed out earlier, classify themselves as a militia, yet they were as initially militarily successful in their war as Zeon was, and they didn't even need to genocide half of humanity to do it.

>>15770595
None of your examples of militias are really good examples as most of them are largely confined to fighting on their own turf (as in they pose little threat of conquering any territory outside of their immediate region) and Zeon isn't even equivalent to most of those militias since they receive significant amounts of outside funding and support that Zeon never had (Iran with Hezbollah, the Gulf states with the numerous Islamic militants in the region, Anaheim with AEUG and even League Militaire was a proxy for the regular Federation forces) The only exception is Zaft, and their excuse is that their forces were composed entirely of superhuman Coordinators.

>>15737449
What about Laplace's Box?

>>15739798
>>15738482
>>15738460
>>15738436
Someone cap these. If for no other reason than as an easy way to respond to all the same old, inane Zeke-posting.

>>15770077

> It's not breast milk, which scuttles your entire point

Breast milk is just milk, a substance which is not only common to all mammals but some other creatures too. A few marsupials have mammary glands, teats and milk for instance. Adding the word "breast" is really only done to distinguish where it originated, not the actual substance itself, which is just milk. It's like adding "free-range" to egg. An egg is an egg, regardless of whether it's free range or not. Free range just adds a descriptor about the conditions it was collected, not changes it substantively.

> Hey, an association fallacy.

No, it's not. It's inductive reasoning, not association fallacy since there's no hasty conclusion, no irrelevant association, it's not a distraction and there's no appeal to emotion. It's basically the duck test, which isn't a fallacy.

> You should post this on /ck/

See my answer about doing this on /k/. I'm talking to you, not your proxies.

> A free standing militia [...] by definition is composed of untrained civilians

That's not actually part of the definition, and doesn't even make any logical sense as part of it since everyone who joins a military is untrained and every faction who forms a military initially forms it out of untrained personnel. You don't join a military organization of any kind and get no training. All militaries train people, some more than others, but all to some degree.

> The government is always reactionary, the military has proven they will take the initiative

The military is subservient to the government. When the Titans stopped taking orders from the Federation is basically when they stopped being part of it.

> That timeline talked about how the Federation did two massive military build ups and held multiple navel reviews

Yea, 15 years before the One Year War.

> Which are done as a show of force towards your enemies

Not inherently they aren't, no. They can be done to build confidence at home just as easily as to project fear in to your enemies.

> Side 6 declaring Independence with Zeon's help was seen as a major threat to the Federation because Zeon was able to peel another Side away from them. The Feddies made the best of the situation to not drive Side 6 into Zeon's camp by treating them magnanimously as opposed to slapping them with huge sanctions and saber rattling

Nice head canon.

> You don't continue to build up weapons just for show.

What was the Cold War then?

>>15738217
Ramba Ral did.

>>15768207
>Militias are often just as dangerous as actual armies
>Post this on /k/, they could use a laugh.

[Laughing Boer Noises]
What you call your army what you like, tripfag, it's how you fight that counts. Funny hats, brass buttons, and silly walks don't win wars, otherwise the US wouldn't have spent the last five decades being embarrassed by people who can't afford footwear.

>>15737521
>>You can't cook an omelet without breaking a few eggs
The problem is that most people don't want that omelet in the first place, and you make it and force-fedora them.

>>15772573
All you're doing is resorting the semantics and trying to imply a copy is the original. Which in this case, it is not. No amount of defending your fallacies will change that. I do like how you're afraid to post on /ck/, sudden lack of confidence?

>Militia: a military force that is raised from the civil population to supplement a regular army in an emergency.
Untrained civilians who are trained to support the regular army. We can get into quibbling over the details like you are with food, but it's not something you're winning at either.

Until there was a formal rebuke, they are still part of the government. It occurred in the TV version of Zeta, however in the canon version of the movies, it did not. So until the very end the Federation gave their support to the Titans. Also might I add, they voted to give the Titans full control midway through.

>15 years
>Salamis and Magellan were developed in built in the Federation's military build up in the 0070's. Otherwise the name, Year 70 Armament Reinforcement Plan wouldn't make sense. They also continued to saber rattle by holding yet another navel review. You should look up the purpose of navel reviews through history. Read between the lines, why else would the Federation maintain good relations with Side 6 after they declare Independence from them? Being magnanimous is not a strong suit of the Feddies, but go on, give me something to work with. Just because they didn't use the nukes, doesn't mean everything else wasn't, and isn't being used.

>>15777100
>Comparing a milita to guerrillas.
You tried anon, but like so many others before you, you failed.

>>15768207
>>Militias are often just as dangerous as actual armies
>Post this on /k/, they could use a laugh.

The Thirty Years War says hi.

I feel as though that while Zeon deserved the right to govern its self, They probably didn't deserve the right to win the war. ESPECIALLY after the colony drops. The ends don't always justify the means.

Zeon literally did nothing wrong, except for that one thing, that one time.

>>15779773
But that one thing was pretty wrong though.

>>15779789
Perspective.

>>15778033

> All you're doing is resorting the semantics and trying to imply a copy is the original.

No, I'm not; what I've done most of the last few posts is point out that all milk is milk but the broader point I wanted to make is that (a) that a copy can be just as good or better than the original, not that it is actually the same and (b) that recipes often are and benefit from being rather fluid and changeable. Including omelets. Lab grown meat is just as good as naturally grown meat nowadays, is healthier in many ways and will never see a farmyard or inside of an animal (beyond a human) and lab grown egg yolks are both possible and likely not too far off.

> No amount of defending your fallacies will change that.

They're not actually fallacies.

> I do like how you're afraid to post on /ck/, sudden lack of confidence?

How is it sudden, given that I literally told you the same thing the first time you tried to divert me to another board?

> Untrained civilians who are trained to support the regular army.

Again, training or lack there of has nothing to do with the definition and never has because everyone who joins any kind of military organization is untrained and people who specifically join a militia are trained in the role as well. Training which can, and has, included things besides defense of territory.

> We can get into quibbling over the details like you are with food, but it's not something you're winning at either.

I might as well say you're not winning either. Neither of us get to decide who wins or loses, since we're in the middle of it and thus cannot be objective about the outcome. That's for outside people to decide if anyone is going to. You may have swayed more people, but if you have it's for them to say and decide, not for you. Arrogant comments like that are just one of the reasons people generally don't like discussing things with you if I had to take a guess.

> Until there was a formal rebuke, they are still part of the government. It occurred in the TV version of Zeta, however in the canon version of the movies, it did not.

Jamitov confirms to Haman that the Federation is going to stop supporting the Titans near the end of the third movie. There's no formal declaration of it, but the movie notes it's happening.

> Salamis and Magellan were developed in built in the Federation's military build up in the 0070's.

Building ships isn't a naval review.

> They also continued to saber rattle by holding yet another navel review.

When? What source says it?

> You should look up the purpose of navel reviews through history.

I believe you're referring to the older practice by the British Commonwealth of "fleet reviews", which are more confrontational than naval reviews. Fleet reviews haven't been a thing since the 1800s though, having morphed in to naval reviews, which are much more formal and ceremonial. The US held 6 of them in the decade before the first World War alone, a time when the US had no major enemies and wasn't at war or threat of war with any particular nation. The Federation's actions are specifically naval reviews, not fleet reviews and the chances of the writers of Gundam purposefully calling back to the practice of fleet reviews but getting the title mixed up with a related but different practice are fairly slim. Even if it is what happened there is nothing to indicate it is the case beyond your desire to make the Federation more villainous.

> Read between the lines, why else would the Federation maintain good relations with Side 6 after they declare Independence from them?

There are several possible reasons why they'd view it as more advantageous to keep good relations with Side 6 as an ally than as an enemy. All of them are rather selfish, but then so is all of economics and politics as a general rule. Side 6 may have had access to or control of a resource (either a raw resource or a manufactured good from those resources) they wished to use, Side 6 may have had or maintained some kind of facilities that Federation didn't wish to lose or Side 6 may have had wealthy residents they didn't wish to compromise a relationship with. Side 6 was in Lagrange Point 4, which was not only one of the two stable Lagrange points, but also one of the ones with the largest, so called Trojan asteroids and would presumably have been one of the richest because of it. Any of them could be the reason. Your theory may even be right for all I know. There is however no indication which is the correct one, and you're simply picking the one you like most, which doesn't make it true.

> Just because they didn't use the nukes, doesn't mean everything else wasn't, and isn't being used.

You said they'd have used nukes if they could have. They had plenty of time and didn't. I never denied they could or did use more passive or less destructive methods.

> Comparing a militia to guerrillas.

Guerillas and militias don't define the same thing, but are not mutually exclusive and many guerillas are a militia or vice versa.

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>>15779900
No, you're still trying to justify semantics, you can create what amounts to a bootleg, and maybe that bootleg is superior to the original. But a bootleg will never be the original no matter how hard it tries. Actually they are. Because you want to deflect from the fact you'd get laughed out of the board. Actually it does. If militia were professionally trained, they'd be called regulars. They might receive some training but it's not even close to what regulars get. The fact you'd rather opt for a draw, rather than victory shows your weakness. Also, stating basic facts isn't arrogance, if you can't deal with the truth. Ask anyone not compromised the original question about omelets. Haman only inquired if the Federation was intent on severing ties with the Titans in space, to which Jamitov did not answer. Regardless, there were still Federation soldiers on the Jupiterus before Haman popped that question, so it clearly means the Federation still supported the Titans and Jamitov was not lying to save face. All of those reasons go back to the core idea that the Federation didn't want to alienate Side 6 because they didn't want all those things you listed to go to supporting Side 3. You're conflating the One Year War to the Cold War and building a strawman off that. Just because the Cold War didn't result in the US and Soviets lobbing nukes at each other, doesn't mean they didn't let all their other weapons collect dust. Except the forces that America are engaging in their current wars are called guerillas, not militias.

>>15737449
The Nazi

Why weren't there any Zeon uprisings in Turn A?

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Reminder that M'quve did nothing wrong.

>>15780549
Because... there aren't any Zeon? Or Federation for that matter?

Like was this supposed to be a trick question?

>>15781002
There must always be Zeon remnants. That is the rule of UC, which Turn A is a distant part of.

>>15781129
they fucked off to find another federation to fight or were engulfed in the moonlight butterfly

>>15780801
>Reminder that M'quve did nothing wrong.
He can't even remember how to spell his own name.

>>15780801
He broke the antarctic treaty. I'd call that wrong.

>>15781129
No? Zeon was not feature in F91, Victory, or G-Saviour. Regardless of this ∀ is not part of the Universal Century. The calendar system changes several times until the events of ∀ are reached after thousands of years.

>>15781156
Zeon remnants were just gearing up for another uprising during those periods.

>>15781166
How did you find out?

>>15781198
By not being too autistic to recognize someone joking about Sunrise's fear to move past the OYW and Zeon holdouts.

>>15782103
Not sure you actually understand what a joke is, or you have a shitty sense of humor. Probably the latter.

>>15780269

> a bootleg will never be the original no matter how hard it tries.

It doesn't have to be; all it has to do is exist beside the original and be accepted by society in general.

> Actually they are (presumably you mean fallacies)

No, they're not. Fallacies are arguments made on faulty logic, the duck test (which is what I was using) is not a fallacy, it's an example of abductive reasoning, as in finding explanation for an observation based on contextual data. The classic case of abductive reasoning being the judicial quote: If it walks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck; then it's a duck. The observation in this case being that a variety of people accept non-egg based omelets as omelets, the contextual reasoning being that they look, taste and by and large smell as expected. Some even feel (as in, texture) the same.

I realized in thinking about it though that this is only superficially arguing the point, since eggs and omelets are only a pithy quote and the real reasoning should probably be addressed. You are asserting that to achieve something sacrifices have to be made i.e. eggs have to be broken. Arguing about how this is not literally true anymore isn't really arguing to the heart of the point at all. It is true that generally sacrifices have to be made to achieve something, since if nothing else you have to devote time to a venture to see results. Putting time aside though it isn't always true, because gains can be made without significant sacrifice. It might take longer, be harder, involve more risk and so on but it is entirely possible to achieve results without sacrifice as a general rule.

More to the point though, as someone pointed out up thread, Zeon sacrificed a not insignificant part of all the humans who had ever lived to achieve something that had been rejected by the majority of people in space. Just because they didn't like the answer does not give them the right to ignore them and act anyways, whether they think it is in people's best interest or not. Ignoring people and doing something "for their own good" is the type of thinking religious extremists trade in, and it never works out. They did it for what they perceived to be a greater good, but having killed 5 billion or so people it'd be a century or more before there'd be a greater to have any good of it, since 5 billion lives don't just pop up over night. A century is a long time socially, and a lot can (and did) happen in that time.

> Because you want to deflect from the fact you'd get laughed out of the board.

Actually it's because I've never visited /ck/, have no interest in visiting /ck/ and don't care what the opinion of the /ck/ regular is on this matter since I'm not talking to them about it, just you. And that's all it would be: their opinion.

> Actually it does (presuming you mean militia training).

Let's see then:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/militia

> 1a : a part of the organized armed forces of a country liable to call only in emergency The militia was called to quell the riot.
> 1b : a body of citizens organized for military service
> 2: the whole body of able-bodied male citizens declared by law as being subject to call to military service

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/militia

> 1. a body of citizens enrolled for military service, and called out periodically for drill but serving full time only in emergencies.
> 2. a body of citizen soldiers as distinguished from professional soldiers.
> 3. all able-bodied males considered by law eligible for military service.
> 4. a body of citizens organized in a paramilitary group and typically regarding themselves as defenders of individual rights against the presumed interference of the federal government.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/militia

> a military force whose members are trained soldiers but who often have other jobs

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/militia

> A militia is an organization that operates like an army but whose members are not professional soldiers.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/militia

> 1. An army composed of ordinary citizens rather than professional soldiers.
> 2. A military force that is not part of a regular army and is subject to call for service in an emergency.
> 3. The whole body of physically fit civilians eligible by law for military service.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/militia

> 1A military force that is raised from the civil population to supplement a regular army in an emergency.
> 1.1 A military force that engages in rebel or terrorist activities in opposition to a regular army.
> 1.2 (in the US) all able-bodied civilians eligible by law for military service.

No definition I can find mentions training at all.

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>>15783276

> Ask anyone not compromised the original question about omelets.

I don't have to. The fact that plant based eggs already exist and that Unilever/Helmann's is marketing a non-egg based mayonnaise shows that plenty of people already agree.

> Jamitov did not answer.

Actually he did. His answer of "do you intend to sever ties too" implies that the Federation have severed ties.

> there were still Federation soldiers on the Jupiterus before Haman popped that question, so it clearly means the Federation still supported the Titans

The Jupiterus is not a Titan ship, because while Scirocco allied with the Titans he is not and never was a Titan. The Jupiterus is a Jupiter Energy Fleet ship, not a Titans ship.

> All of those reasons go back to the core idea that the Federation didn't want to alienate Side 6 because they didn't want all those things you listed to go to supporting Side 3.

They could do, but they are not inherently tied to Zeon/Side 3, because fearing someone gaining is not the only reason to fear a loss and politics/economics is not an entirely zero sum game.

> Just because the Cold War didn't result in the US and Soviets lobbing nukes at each other, doesn't mean they didn't let all their other weapons collect dust.

They didn't let all their other weapons collect dust, but plenty of stuff besides nuclear missiles did collect dust. The US and Russia mostly spied on each other via planes or submarines over the years, mostly fighting via proxy wars, often without materially participating in those wars themselves. They did do so in some wars, but they didn't directly participate in most and a lot of people and hardware never saw action during the cold war.

> Except the forces that America are engaging in their current wars are called guerillas, not militias.

I said they were not mutually exclusive terms, not that they were synonyms.

Oh, and an addendum since I forgot to address some points.

> If militia were professionally trained, they'd be called regulars.

No, if they were paid they'd be called regulars, because that's the difference. A soldier is a professional, hired and paid. A member of a militia isn't. It's generally true that soldiers have better training, but not inherently true since some militias spend years training their personnel and some military's really just wave people through with the minimum training.

> The fact you'd rather opt for a draw, rather than victory shows your weakness.

The fact you see this as a competition and the outcome more important than the process is kind of depressing.

>>15737449
I condemn the violence on all sides

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They both were

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>>15785794
>>15786008
>Fence sitters
There is a special place in hell for you people.

>>15737449
The Federation for being weak shits. Zeon was strong so they were right

>>15785794
>>15786008
Found the zeon sympathizers