What the fuck is she doing?

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>>15734613
Fuck I could make a drinking game out of this shit.
>Take a shot when Shinn screams
>Take a shot when Cagalli cries
>Take a shot when Shinn cries
>Take a shot when Stella cries
>Take a shot when Kira yells out "stop it!"

>>15734628
ud die

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I know people shit on Kira or Lacus or Athrun for being retarded, Why haven't they killed off Cagalli?

I mean, She doesn't anything but cry and pilots an outdated MS which NO ONE bother to shoot down. ( it's fucking Cagalli for Christ sake. Shinn could easily take her out.)

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Nuff said.

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I see that crying runs in the family.

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The Savor vs. Freedom fight is pretty BS.

I know what you're saying... I know what you're saying, but it doesn't matter. Because at this moment, Cagalli is crying her heart out. She's crying because all of this is exactly what she feared. Why won't you understand that? And now, are you telling me that this battle... these terrible sacrifices... they can't be helped!? That all of this is the fault of Orb and Cagalli? If you are saying that, then you are attacking the very thing that Cagalli is trying to save!

>>15734837
Fuck off, Trudeau

>>15734613
Still better than Iron Blooded Ovaries by a long shot

>>15734766
Poor Gundam.

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Honest Question
What exactly were Kira and The Gang trying to do when they were floating around getting into battles like that?

Yes, I know that the meta-reason is so that they could join the toy pushing fights and be at ends with the ZAFT gang, but what's the in-story reason?

What exactly were they going to expect to happen?
That Orb would just pack it in and go home right then and there? If the idea is that she has NO AUTHORITY back at Orb because of Jona, wouldn't all that happen is that if they listened and left, they'd just get sent right back out again with all of the people in charge who retreated a court martial or something?

The Archangel hadn't been formally introduced into the Orb military, so couldn't they just make an emergency council and strip her of her rank for hanging around with TERRORISTS, and put an end to her claptrap? Jona just whines and calls her a fake, and that's that.

What if the Orb military had been absorbed into the EA completely? Would they have just sat on their hands, or go around each base trying to tell people to stop fighting?

Why not get Orb to join the Eurasian Federation nations that don't want to join up with the rest of the EA because they don't care too much about destroying/murdering Coordinators? Get a unified front going on instead?

Most of the time, it's the Orb/EA shooting at the Minerva. So what would happen after he disables a few of their mobile suits/guns, and the EA throws out a Zamah-Zah, he would fight off the Mobile Armor AND the rest of the army dedicated to sinking the ZAFT battleship? Sure, "Maria" told them to get out, but they didn't seem to concerned with getting the guns ready when ZAFT was getting fucked by both sides.

I just don't get what the hell they were actually doing. It's like they were just desperate to get the old gang in the mix, and the reason behind it doesn't HAVE to be good, it just has to be a reason.

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>>15734740
Because killing her off means they'd have to address the Orb situation, and given the teams general dislike of Cagali at that point, they just wanted to shove all of that nonesense on the side.

>>15734740
Probably because everyone acknowledged that she was being poorly written even when the series first started.

Man. I remember when Cagaili finally got back in a mobile suit, leading a charge against ZAFT, and then at the end of the episode, they show off a screen of her fighting against Shinn......AND THEN the next episode is a fucking recap.

Kira shows up and kicks her off the battlefield, and suddenly everyone remembers to look for Djibril.

And then after all that is said and done, she gives the mobile suit to Neo. All that fucking build up from her father to pass it off to Neo, because "he needs something to pilot".

I remember watching and waiting for this, as it aired.
You had to have been there.

>>15734814
>Orb is LITERALLY COLLABORATING WITH KNOWN TERRORISTS
>Why is everyone angry with Orb

>>15734628
>mfw Shinn gets punched for calling Athrun, Cagalli and Kira out on their bullshit
>Shinn gets punched for cutting down the Freedom and returning as a hero
>The man that spent half the series slowly brainwashing Shinn got immediately converted in a matter of minutes by Father Yamato

Shinn was too good for Destiny.

>>15734837
>sad piano music plays

>>15735074
Shinn has literally no ideals or morals and no reason to be killing so many. He should just fuck off is what everyone is trying to tell him.

>>15736565

Shut the fuck up Kira

>>15734613
>What the fuck is she doing?
Judging by her hands in the picture, having a mind-shattering orgasm.

>>15735074
>Shinn gets punched for cutting down the Freedom and returning as a hero

There's really nothing heroic about going out of your way to hunt down and kill one guy, who explicitly wasn't trying to kill you, just because he's inconvienient to your political overlord.

>>15735060

I feel like the idea they were pushing is you shouldn't want to murder the fuck out of everyone from Orb, just because a few asshole polticians are crooked. Did Shinn need to go land on an already sinking ship with one guy on it, just to smash that one guy who would have died anyway?

On the other hand the Orb soldiers were a little too spineless when it came to meekly obeying guys they knew were leading the country to ruin.

>>15735060
That's not even the dumbest part. The dumbest part was when they harboured Djibril for no fucking reason and then ZAFT rolled up to their door and said "We know you have known war criminal Djibril and have actionable intelligence to prove it, please turn him over so he can be put on trial for his crimes."

And Orb goes: "What, who? Never heard of him.", and ZAFT is all "Look, we know he's there and he's still dangerous because he might rally some support, so if you don't hand him over we'll be forced to wade in and extract him", and then they do it and Orb is all freaking out over being 'invaded' by this taskforce that is literally just there for one guy.

Kira pitches a fit and starts ranting like they're big evil imperialist invaders there to conquer and pillage when they flat out stated all they wanted was Djibril (a known war criminal they now have no motive whatsoever to protect) and would have just left with him if they'd cooperated (and DID pull out all their forces once he'd escaped). And their putting up a massive fight over this bogged ZAFT down in built-up areas where the conflict caused massive collateral damage to their own country because their forces were stationed there.

>>15734959
>The Archangel hadn't been formally introduced into the Orb military, so couldn't they just make an emergency council and strip her of her rank for hanging around with TERRORISTS, and put an end to her claptrap? Jona just whines and calls her a fake, and that's that.

Cagalli was too popular a figurehead with the army to try that. Half the reason they wanted to marry her off to Juna was just so everyone would agree with the Seiran's selling out to Logos because obviously Cagalli-sama must approve since she married him.

They have to insist Cagalli's a fake to get the army not to listen to her, and even then when it's proven otherwise a significant amount of the Orb flagship's crew opt to go with her rather than Juna.

Presumably if they tried to shut her out, and declare her a terrorist there would be riots in Orb or something like that. Especially since Kira Yamato and the AA crew are national heroes there.

>>15736645
Kira is (at this point) a known terrorist who operates a powerful nuclear mobile suit from a difficult to track submersible carrier who could (and did) strike anywhere at any time and who had attacked ZAFT forces on a number of occasions, apparently for fighting a country that had, ipso facto, declared war on ZAFT. It entirely follows that ZAFT would consider him dangerous and want him dealt with.

>going out of your way
Eh? Hunting down the Archangel was a sanctified ZAFT military operation, not a lone vigilante act. The Archangel crew go "Buh waaah??? Why would they attack US? We're not the baddies!" in total ignorance of their actions and the obvious inferences thereof.

>>15736645
Kira was also interfering with the Minervas battles while they were just defending themselves, so he was in the way, even if he didn't want to kill Shinn.

>>15736565
He Is A Soldier

>>15736761

Career soldiers are bad in Gundam. You need to be a reluctant warrior with ideals to fight for.

That's pretty much consistant in all shows.

>>15736645
They were ordered to shoot them down for one.
Second, Freedom has turned it's weapons on them various times before, so just because they played nice in Berlin doesn't really mean that they'd not suddenly change their mind before
Lastly, Athrun's got a lot of nerve complaining about Shinn, when earlier he was preaching to him about how he should do his job and fight the enemy when Shinn was trying to save Stella

If Shinn had flew off on his own and taken down the Freedom without anyone's permission, that'd be one thing. Here, he quite literally did the job he was told to do.

>>15736830
>just because they played nice in Berlin doesn't really mean that they'd not suddenly change their mind before

The funny thing is they were in fact coming around to thinking they were wrong to not trust in Durandal, until Angel Down changed that.

>>15736801
Mu is a career soldier who isn't portrayed as bad, and that's from SEED itself off the top of my head.

>>15736801
>They have to insist Cagalli's a fake to get the army not to listen to her, and even then when it's proven otherwise a significant amount of the Orb flagship's crew opt to go with her rather than Juna.

Yeah, but it's pretty clear that most of the military KNOWS she's the real deal, but they're going with 'MUH DUTY' anyway. Especially with guys like Baba that literally throws her out of the battlefield and makes a kamikaze run on the Minerva.

Even when Djibril is forced to beat a retreat to Orb, and him and Jona have little to speak of in allies and military might to throw around, that would have been an EXCELLENT time for a mutiny. They have all the reason to throw them under the bus for a fight they don't want to have, BUT instead, everyone just bites their teeth and moans "MUH DUTY" until Cagaili gets back.
Then she jumps to the challenge to fighting off ZAFT instead of trying to call off the battle, and then fighting if ZAFT doesn't play fair. No, it's immediately right to battle.

Look, I know the meta-reason is "we need a fight to happen so mobile suits can do stuff", but the in-series reason just makes Orb look extremely bull-headed.

So, even with that, it doesn't really state what the Archangel's overall goal was.
>>15736651
Wasn't that ship doing a kamikaze charge at the nearly-sunk Minerva? Hence why everyone else except Todoka got off the ship?

>>15736837
Though given the shit they'd pulled, that they honestly weren't expecting to be called on it (because they sincerely didn't even think they'd done anything to *be* called on) makes them seem moronic at best and unbelievably conceited at worst.

>>15736656

I don't think Kira ever rants or pitches a fit in Destiny, so chill out. Secondly the show goes out of it's way to show you ZAFT was definitely there for ORB. Talia orders the retreat against the wishes of Durandal. It was an invasion, and if not for the captain of the Minerva it wouldn't have stopped when it did.

>>15736864
>I don't think Kira ever rants or pitches a fit in Destiny,
He does so on a number of occasions, one of which is screencapped in this very thread.>>15734814

>Secondly the show goes out of it's way to show you ZAFT was definitely there for ORB.
I definitely do not recall events playing out like that at all, but I confess to being unwilling to bother finding that episode and slogging through it in search of evidence corroborating either theory.

>>15736863

Considering the reaction to their actions in Seed (no consequences and hailed as heroes despite shooting at everyone) they probably figured they could get away with shooting up a few Zaft mobile suits.

Especially if Zaft could get the legendary Freedom and AA on their side.

>>15736864
Talia orders the retreat AFTER Djibirl gets away, and the rest of ZAFT complies

There's not one scene that plays out saying where someone rants and raves "Tee hee! This is just a pretense to take over Orb!" (which would be really easy to add), and even if that were true, there's no point where Orb tries to call off the battle after leadership had changed, Cagaili shows up and hops right into battle.

>>15736907
Ah, thank you for answering this part and sparing me the trudge through the show.

I would also add that I dug out some notes I took while I was watching, and apparently Orb never bothered to evacuate its own civilians from the built up areas they'd stationed their forces on.

>>15736893

Not him, but there are a few scenes of the other Zaft flagship where the commander mentions how Orb is trouble some and wants it quickly crushed and invaded, which suggests they were planning on rolling in afterwards regardless.

He also refuses to let up the assault and try another strategy at Talia's urging even though Orb is starting to kick their ass but he's blown up by AA before this gets anywhere.

There's also the other commander at Angel Down who wants to take no prisoners and kill everyone on AA, and is annoyed Talia attempts to get them to surrender, and also begrudges them for their actions at Jachin Due for some reason, which is weird given how they kind of saved Plant from being nuked.

>>15736937
So the basis for the assertion is the declarations of some no name bit part crazy officer? Would explain why I didn't remember it. If this is the case it's not super convincing, most background characters in SEED (EA and Plant and military and civilian alike) are totally kill crazy, it doesn't tell us anything about the operational objectives of ZAFT itself (especially when their approach to the entire war was 'minimum necessary force', by insistence of Durandal (then by insistence of Meer when everyone ignored him because he wasn't a pop idol).

>>15736952

You'd be surprised how bit part characters are used in Destiny.

Neo's Windam's ability to actually zoom around and not die instantly seemed like just blatant plot armor, but in fact at the beginning of episode 16 there's a brief few second scene where you see the mechanics working on his Windam mention they're setting the boosters to full power and think it's reckless to try this so early.

I didn't catch this until years later.

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>>15734613

>>15736952

You realize the person who said it was the COMMANDER OF THE OPERATION. He's technically a two bit player to us, but in the world he'd be the first person to know the actual goals beyond anyone else we see.

>>15736907

Cagalli rather clearly says the plan is to push ZAFT back to better position ORB for cease fire talks.

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How come there's a lack of UNDERSTANDING in Seed destiny?

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>>15737010
Is Kira too autistic to UNDERSTAND?

>>15737003
>You realize the person who said it was the COMMANDER OF THE OPERATION.
Well obviously not, because I don't remember him in the slightest. If this guy is in charge of the operation why is Talia's retreat order the one people follow? And if they've got equal billing why is his personal opinion more indicative than Talia's?

Look, as I remember it, I distinctly recall whoever was negotiating for ZAFT (either Talia or Durandal) telling Yuna they knew about Djibril, only wanted him and could they please hand him over and they'll be on their way, and Yuna's transparently obvious(and inexplicable) lying to the contrary. At which point ZAFT goes in (being briefed to tie up the Orb defenders so some of them can go after Djibril), and once Djibril escapes (thanks to the intervention of the Archangel crew) ZAFT ups and leaves to go pursue him into space.

Actually, come to think of it, it's not like ZAFT would have even needed a pretence to invade Orb anyway, they were still at war at the time, weren't they?

>>15737051
>If this guy is in charge of the operation why is Talia's retreat order the one people follow?

Because he's dead, his sub gets blown up.

>Actually, come to think of it, it's not like ZAFT would have even needed a pretense

They wouldn't have, they were at War. But invading somebody tends to play against the whole "we're just here for LOGOS people." and being the best good guys ever thing.

>>15737107
> But invading somebody tends to play against the whole "we're just here for LOGOS people." and being the best good guys ever thing.
Or maybe (and hear me out on this crazy notion) they actually were just there for LOGOS, as opposed to wasting manpower invading a country that really isn't as important is its advocates like to think it is.
Djibril is a legit threat to the Plants as long as he's loose, as shown by his rousing some hold outs and blowing up an entire Colony, so getting him locked down ASAP is perfectly understandable. Now, ZAFT actually defaults to having the moral high ground here, because Orb is technically the instigator of the conflict between them and ZAFT (by default due to forming a military alliance with the EA, at war with ZAFT at the time, and by being the side to open hostilities by attacking the Minerva right out of port). They are also the instigators of this incident: the superpower backing Djibril no longer exists, so they are no-longer under pressure to submit to the EA and could easily back up the (pretty much true) excuse that they had a proverbial gun to their heads by simply forking him over, and by not doing so they would by implication betray some sympathy or allegiance with LOGOS itself, marking them effectively an enemy of the world.

Now, given how they had every reason not to do what they did, ZAFT just asking for him would be a poor move if their motive was to conquer Orb. If Orb does the stupid thing and refuses it gives them a pretence that they don't need (because, as mentioned, Orb opened hostilities and remains hostile), and if Orb accepts then suddenly it would actually be BAD for their positive image because they would be attacking after Orb cooperated.

So perhaps (just maybe) them offering Orb an out actually WAS them offering Orb an out as opposed to a redundant political ploy, because they have bigger things to worry about than a Podunk 'neutral power' that is neither of those things any more.

>>15737147
Oh, forgot to mention: Orb's coordinator citizens mean that in the absence of the thrat of invasion by the EA it would make even less sense to shelter Djibril given where his group stands on that issue (i.e. kill 'em all).

>>15737179

They don't even know. Only the politicians and a few military guys knew Djbril was there. Even Cagalli and the AA guys didn't know.

The Coordinator citizens, and apparantly ALL the regular citizens for that matter were completely out of the loop regarding just about everything that happened in Destiny, being fed "Everything is great" propaganda by the Seirans which is another reason they wanted Cagalli married, both to keep pushing how everything is fine and to distract the populace with their beloved Cagalli-sama's happy wedding and new married life.

>>15737147
>to wasting manpower invading a country that really isn't as important is its advocates like to think it is.

Orb was very important. It was the only military power capable of standing up to Zaft at that point other than the soon to collapse EA, and thanks to them keeping Zaft out, is later able to stop Durandal's Destiny Plan 10 episodes later.

>>15737289
It wasn't Orb that stood up to Zaft. It was a bunch of EA and Zaft traitors using stolen EA and Zaft technology aided by more turncoats like Yzak and Dearka. Shinn and Rey didn't even participate in the battle while Kira and Athrun were destroying the Requiem Relays. Nearly every TSA suit has a ZAFT model number.

>>15736801

Career soldiers are bad in general, because they're motivated by money and not duty or love of their nation. Milton Friedman called a conscripted military a slave army, but as General William C. Westmoreland (Chief of Staff of the U.S. Army) replied, if that's true then an all-volunteer army is a mercenary army. I would like to see how many people would sign up for the military in peacetime if there were no benefits other than medical if you get shot, and if they were paid as much as the Peace Corps is (by and large PC members are paid the same as the wages of the third-world people they're helping, out of principal to discourage monetary incentive). Wartime however is a different story, 75% of the armed forces in Vietnam volunteered for the fight, compared to around 33% for WW2. And last I checked, WW2 was not the one historically depicted with disciplinary issues with its soldiers.

>>15737326
Oh and as an add-on, yes I support universal conscription. Because people volunteer for the military for all sorts of inappropriate reasons:
>to overcome inferiority complexes
>to prove their manhood
>adventure
>to be able to brag that they had killed another man
>to brag that they were combat veterans
>to wear a uniform
>to get medals for bravery
>to put distance between themselves and the locale of bad or embarrassing past behavior
>to stay out of jail (during Vietnam)
>generous benefits
Draftees are in the military for one very good reason:
>they figure it is their civic duty in the same way voting is

>>15736801
>You need to be a reluctant warrior with ideals to fight for.
You don't need ideals to fight for, just a home

>>15737289
ZAFT is militarily a match for the EA, and Orb had to yield to pressure from the EA (twice!) precisely because it wasn't strong enough to resist them.

Orb was relevant in SEED mainly because it was sitting pretty compared to everyone else due to the neutron jammer situation, and also because it was the largest neutral power. Of course, the former stopped being relevant when NJC's went into circulation during the timeskip, and the latter kind of went out the window when their largest defence contractor conspired to co-develop weapons with one of the other two factions, with the intent of reaping the benefits for themselves later (and then again when they declared a military alliance with that same power next war).

>>15737309
Yeah, Orb is in kind of a Line Ark situation where its relevant because the one pilot representing it can stand in for an army in a pinch. (of course, conquering Orb wouldn't really contribute toward stopping him, so it would be a waste of resources).

>>15737337
>yes I support universal conscription
Nobody asked you, nobody cares about your politics.

>>15737309
>Nearly every TSA suit has a ZAFT model number.

Only 5. SF IJ and the 3 Doms. Akatsuki and the good 50 of or Astrays and Murasame's they had there were Orb built.

AA is technically an Orb ship (and was built by Orb based on Orb designs no less) and they also sent several Izumo class ships where as the only Zaft ship they had was Eternal (Yzak's ship was ordered by him to not get involved)

And you can't even say Kira in SF did all the heavy lifting like usual because he wasn't even involved in the defeat of Minerva or taking out Requiem, both of which Mu in the Orb build Akatsuki had a heavy hand in.

>>15734740
>Akatsuki
>Outdated
???

>>15737367
Those Murasame and Astray didn't do shit. It was all Strike Freedom, IJ, The Doms and Akatsuki which was piloted by an EA defector. Those other ships did nothing either. Shinn himself was dominating Orb before Kira showed up on Earth. Even before Shinn got Destiny he was taking out Murasame, Windams and ships by the dozens.

Kira was involved with taking out the Requiem Relays with Meteor. He also was the one who destroyed Neo Genesis.

>>15734740
Yeah, I don't know why people shit on Lacus and Kira yet Cagalli gets a free pass, when she ends up with the same stupid idealistic beliefs as those two yet can't back it up worth shit. It's like they gave her enough damsel in distress duty for her and Lacus put together. This is especially stupid because she ends up being no ones love interest. What the fuck is the point of a damsel in distress if not that?

>>15736645
>just because he's inconvienient to your political overlord

Didn't Kira murder the Minerva's engineering crew, help LOGOS kill Heine, literally dissect the Saviour and inadvertently help LOGOS Gundams kill tons of Coordinators in the battle?

>>15737987
>Strike Rouge
>Not outdated.

>>15736864
>Secondly the show goes out of it's way to show you ZAFT was definitely there for ORB

But Zaft never cared about Orb. Once Djibril escaped, they all left.

>>15737018
Kira IS understanding.

>>15738029
>>This is especially stupid because she ends up being no ones love interest.

Can somebody please refresh my memory: why did she and Athrun break up again?

I just finished GSD the other week and I just want to say fuck Kira, fuck Lacus, and fuck Cagalli.Watching this show and rooting for Shinn was suffering.

>>15737987
Akatsuki is basically a heavily modified Strike Gundam and was stated to have been built in CE71 but kept in storage.

>>15734613
try to pull out she retracted dick?

>>15738235

Well that's your own fault.

Never root for Shinn.

>>15738235
I was in a similar position, except just for fun I had a go at rooting for Durandal. It was remarkably easy too, despite being pushed as a scheming villain he spent most of the series coming across as the only sane man in a mad world, and every action he was confirmed to had a pretty good explanation for it.

>>15738235
>>15738390
When I was younger and not yet savvy to the idea of watching something and it turning out really bad (rather than it being awful from the start), AND it being a stinker from a franchise I thought I could do no wrong had me analpained for years, especially watching the slow twinkle of the new characters having the show stolen right from under them.

Now, my issue is less that, and more so that it isn't GOOD, and most attempts at trying to explain things away are just excuses and retroactive writing at play. I'm baffled on how Gundam X manages to pull off a better ending despite being cancelled, and how a team of professionals lets something like GSD through without someone stepping in.

>>15738800
Honestly, as a stupid high schooler who really liked Seed at the time, I dropped Destiny within the first ten episodes. I know a lot of people say "oh, it was good at the start", but...no, or at least I don't think so. There's a lot of immediate problems with Destiny, and while it definitely gets worse, I can't say it's a good show that somehow turned into shit.

>>15738860
> I know a lot of people say "oh, it was good at the start", but...no, or at least I don't think so.
> I can't say it's a good show that somehow turned into shit.
No, but it was at least kind of promising and felt like it could go somewhere at first, which is probably what people mean.

>>15738800
I knew a guy who watched Destiny as his first exposure to the franchise (he didn't know it was a sequel at first and was bewildered by this Kira guy who seemed like kind of an ass). He is easily pleased and has low standards, and was at that teenage peak of liking pretty much any anime...and he STILL felt Destiny was bad.

>>15738390
>Lacus had her attack dogs randomly attack people she didn't like
>Djibril was a madman and a terrorist
>Durandal wanted to brainwash people into being peaceful

He truly was the lesser of three evils.

>>15739160
Kind of. Djibril speaks for himself, and where Lacus rambles a bunch of vague barely coherent shit about peace while her faction does some highly questionable stuff and (more damningly) maintains total lack of self awareness about the consequences of their actions, Durandal spends most of the series apparently trying to be reasonable and restrained.

Actually, I kind of liked him characterwise too, because of how he's a mirror to his old pal Rau. Both realised the earth sphere was fucked, but where Rau embraced nihilism and tried to expedite that end, Durandal refused to give up hope for humanity and sought for some kind of plan to pull off that would fix things. Even privately he seemed motivated to actually care about people and want the best for them.

Lacus and Kira's approach is to maintain status quo while smacking down any attempt at insurrection, which is no solution at all, and they seemed largely to be all about maintaining their self perceived, long abandoned moral high ground.

>>15738062
>Kira IS understanding.
That's fucking bullshit and you know that anon.

>If he was, He wouldn't kill Stella like that.

>>15736853
>Mu is a career soldier who isn't portrayed as bad
Yeah but Mu is portrayed as a Slegger Law. And as such needs to die

wtf I love the destiny gundam.

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>>15746293