Would mass-producing it really have changed anything?

>>15716282
Considering the number of EF cruisers and mobile suits it melted on its first (and only?) day of operation, I would say yes. If Amuro and Sleggar hadn't shown up, it would have just kept rampaging.

>>15716282
That was a scenario in ExtremeVSForce and they still got BTFO but >>15716289 seems much more likely. Also keep in mind the battery life of Big Zam was only like 20 minutes.

>>15716282
No. The first time it would have wrecked a bunch of shit, the second time the GMs deployed against it would have a counter-strategy that would win with some heavy losses, and the third time the counter-strategy would win with almost no losses. It was deployed too late in the war and had too many weaknesses for its size and cost.

considering the number of Core fighters they can crash on its crotches?

No.

>>15716342

delete

>>15716302
I thought that was until the I-field generator overheated.

>>15716282
Hastening the defeat of Zeon since they wouldnt be able to build many mobile suits and ships because those things must take up a shit ton of resources to make

>>15716356
You're correct, the wording messed me up.
>All of this equipment required four large power plants to operate, and as a result Big Zam overheated quickly and could not be used for more than 20 minutes in battle.

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>could Zeon have won if they did X instead of Y?

No

>>15716282
Not really, Zeon was at a severe manufacturing deficit. For every zaku they could make the Federation could make three or four GMs (guestimate)

What would have changed things is putting in the United Maintenance Plan in early in the war and not pissing off Dr. Minovsky.

A lot of Zeon's shortcomings came down to reactor and Minovsky particle tech so capturing a working GM would have done wonders for Zeon.

And, of course, not declaring a war in the first place. Really, the Federation is just too damned big. If you can't win within a matter of months you should open peace talks before somebody starts dropping nukes.

They could be used to hold certain choke points. 20 minutes is more than enough to decimate a large number of the fleet for the forces to regroup. The Big Zam's main role would be to serve as a blockade mech, someone who can do a lot of damage in a short amount of time and not blowing up.

It is like the AT AT, you bring Zakus for support as they take out MS with bazookas and missile carriers while the Zam takes out anyone with a beam weapon.

Once they got a foothold, then their main goal is to attack the launching points to make sure none of the GMs ever make it to space, even a 20 minute raid is more than enough to keep the opposing force landlocked.

>>15720319
>can't win within a matter of months you should open peace talks
They should've stopped when they made the Antarctica Treaty. They probably could've gotten control of most of space and then go for Full Frontal's embargo plan

>>15716282

realistically it would devastate at first but the 93587 other ace pilots the feddies have would decimate them and the regular forces would eventually develop countermeasures

>>15716508
>Dat image
What would be the figure of losses of the A Baoa Qu Battle?

>>15716282
anyone have that meme picture of 2 big zams vs gurren lagann?

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Father?

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It would change EVERYTHING.

>>15720526
Dozle please, you're a good guy but there's a reason your siblings were in charge.

>>15716307

Given the way Gundam treats prototypes I'd imagine that even if the Big Zam was mass produced it wouldn't have been nearly as effective regardless, because they probably would have stripped down a lot of the capabilities for both cost and efficiency. Not only were Zeon shy on resources, but they were shy on pilots and training so it's not hard to imagine that a mass produced Big Zam would have been simpler to pilot, with less systems and more vulnerabilities. Same as how the GM didn't generally have the firepower of the Gundam, using only the beam spray gun instead of a beam rifle and only one beam saber to the Gundam's two as well as having cheaper and weaker armor the MP Big Zam would probably only have a few beam guns and ditch the i-field or something.

It's also not like Amuro's strategy to beating it was particularly complex or difficult to pull off. All he did was fly inside it's i-field and hit it a couple of times. Despite the unit's intimidation Sleggar was the one who suggested attacking it in the first place, his unit just wasn't mobile enough to deal with it. There's not really anything suggesting an average GM couldn't do much the same.

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>>15721004
according to its information, the mass produced Big Zam is supposed to have the same mega particle cannon as the original Big Zam. however, it has improved cooling system and a minovsky craft for flight.

the only downside is the reduction of its huge reactors to 1, removing the i-field and putting a anti-beam-coating as cost cutting measure.

So I guess, mass produced big zam will be very scary.

You could line up a battalion number big zam and it will be a danmaku that destroys everything in its path

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>>15716282
Yes, but the real question is, if it did deploy before the battle was starting, would it change the outcome.

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>>15716289
Also, you have to factor in that it deployed very late in the battle and let the others withdraw, rather than having escort support. Dozle was quite an idiot. If he did made some Rick Doms stay around him while he was busy sinking ships, the core booster would never get in close

>>15722476

What you're saying is that it'd be a big, relatively slow unit with high fire power and low defence. Which is basically describing a spaceship. And we all know how well those fare in Gundam. Sure, it'd be a more mobile spaceship, but it'd still be a large and fairly easy target for any mobile suit given it only has an anti beam coating, which might as well be cardboard against a direct shot.

>>15722518

It deployed late because it didn't have the energy to stay deployed for the duration, and Dozle dismissed his men because he knew things were going south. It had support, but that support was busy being killed.

>>15721004
Beam spraygun actually has higher output than the beam rifle, it just lacked the condensing barrel so the effective range was shorter.

>>15722540

Range matters. More than power to a point.

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>>15722521
since going by its specs, its just actually slightly larger than the Nu Gundam. unfortunately it doesnt have official thrust output spec, but it is outfitted with a Minovsky Craft Drive, the same thing in an Apasalas 1 and 2, so it will probably around the same speed.

In fact, Apasalas 1 and 2 are quite similar to the mass produced big zam , since it was made to beam spam Jaburo.

Zeon can line up a battalion worth of MP Big Zam and make a volley fire, which would decimate everything

>>15722560

It's 29m to Nu's 23; which is close to a quarter again as big. It's also not nearly as nimble or fast as the Nu, which is one of the main advantages it had despite its size. Also, Zeon (or anyone) could use ranked fire tactics. They generally didn't because they generally don't work that well against mobile targets.

At the ranges they shoot eac other from in gundam its not really an issue. They are never really shown shooting each other from miles off anyways.

>>15722585
Meant for >>15722547

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>>15722575
its 29m with the feet down. it could fold into the back.

Also, remember the original purpose of the Big Zam family: Jamru Fin, Apsalus 1,2,3, Big Zam. its to sink battleship and destroy fortresses from great distances. their mega particle cannon reaches great distances you know. Just watch on the simulation of how Apsalus 2 destroyed Jaburo.

A huge line of MP BigZam firing its mega particle cannon will decimate all the magellan and salamis even before the GMs could deploy

>>15722585
Do we ever actually see spray guns being ineffective at range? I have a vague memory of that, but that might've been the anti-beam fog.

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>>15722594
ok, im retarded, it actually has legs on the back that folds to the front, I read that wrong.

however it is outfitted with the same Minovsky Drive system as the Apsalus 1 and 2, except working this time. So it would be around the same speed. so it is not the slow and lumbering Mobile Armor you think it is. I mean Zakurello is still fast you know, despite its size

>>15722540
>Beam spraygun actually has higher output than the beam rifle
No it doesn't, that's a lie. Common sources say that the Gundam's beam rifle is rated at 1.9 megawatts while the GM's beam spray gun is rated at 1.4 megawatts.

>>15722599
Few GMs are ever shown firing at long ranges. Aside from beam spray guns, there is the one example of the GP01Fb's beam rifle being ineffective against the Val Varo. That beam rifle happens to be rated at 1.5 megawatts.

>>15722518
He deployed it solo to buy time for his men to retreat, Dozle wasn't intending to survive the battle.

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>>15727238
and that was the point of why Big Zam lost. it deployed like mid point of the battle, when the enemy forces are in the Solomon perimiter

If it deployed right after the solar system fired, then Big Zam would definitely win the battle. It would shot down more magellan and salamis even before the GMs could deploy from great distances with its large mega particle cannon

Heck, I don't even know, but Big Zam might even survive a Solar System since a Neue Ziel survived it. So, it might change the whole course of the battle if it was able to deploy early

>>15727966
You're ignoring its operating limit, and eventually it would have been missiled to death anyway. One MA cannot change the course of an entire battle

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>>15727988
the operation limit is for the I-field which is 20 minutes. but the large mega particle canon is not limited to 20 mins.

and also, good luck trying to shoot it down with missiles when the large particle cannon would most likely outrange the ships and shoot them down way before the ships can enter the missile's effective range.

the only thing they can hope with missiles is to fire them so far away and hope it hits something.

>>15728019
With the field down, it dies immediately anyway. Effective range in space is less of an issue, especially with a target that large, and that's ignoring torpedo boats or mobile suits with bazookas, machine guns, or their own missiles. As pointed out earlier, Amuro's method of "shank it" hardly required any sort of special skill on his part, enough GMs attacking it would have solved the problem. Wunderwaffes are never as effective as they seem.

>>15720526
I never realized how big of a meme machine Big Zam was

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>>15728054
except again, Big Zam is an anti-fortress heavy assault mobile armor. it would be firing mah lazers at the battleships at great ranges way before the ships can deploy anything. the ships have to come in close or else they can't deploy the GMs because they have operational distance limit, and the sensors on the GMs are only 6km, and space SFS are not invented yet until Zeta

and you are wrong about effective range in space is not an issue. it is an issue. Minovsky particle bitch. Big Zam would be Jotunheim firing at the salamis and magellans and they can't do anything about it.

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In terms of Dozle sorting in the Big Zam, he did it as last resort because they had nothing left. If you recall, he was upset that he was sent the Big Zam and not more Rick Doms.

In terms of how much damage the Big Zam could have done to the Feddie fleet if it wasn't deployed until after the battle was decided. That's a giant what if, but there's a good chance the battle could have turned in Zeon's favor if Dozle was able to successfully bum rush the Federation lines and sink their flag ship much earlier in the battle. Plus every other ship in the area is a sitting duck assuming the Big Zam doesn't lose its I-Field. (Don't forget it not only has the Mega Particle Cannon, but an all range attack it used as well.)

Of course if Amuro was around, plot armor would allow him to take it down.

>>15730051
nobody respond

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>>15716508
Actually if you sorted 30 Big Zams and assigned proper escorts they would have made a hell of a difference at A Baoa Qu because a majority of the Feddies weapons were beam weapon based or conventional bullets which the Big Zam would shrug off.

As long as you keep GM's from piecing the Big Zam's I-field and hacking away at it with its beam saber like Amuro did, they will be in extremely good shape. And for people who go 'just macross missile massacre them' The escorts would handle the missiles and even if one does hit the Big Zam, the damage would more than likely be negligible. Remember Slegger's core booster smashed directed into the weak underside of the Big Zam and it was still alive and kicking.
And once the Big Zeong is mass produced, Zeon's dominance is ensured.

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>>15728917
To add some evidence about the Mega Particle Cannon's range, if it's anything like the Big Rang from MS IGLOO. It would be beastly to the point you don't even need to be in visual range (naked eye) to be able to hit a target.

>>15730055
Whatcha scared of?

feddies would run off screaming about the fact that the zakus were replaced with giant chicken legged UFO's. and zeon would win the oyw, and zeon daikun would be rebourn, and zeon would colonize the whole universe with Big Zams, and Char would paint all of them red so the colonization would go three time the normal speed of colonization. then zeon daikun would become god itself, and the zabis would become his servants, and amuro would become a cyborg controlled by zeon, and he would murderfuck the federation with his Gundam Big Zam type. then zeon would realize, they were in a show, and they would develope a maching to go into our world, and destroy everything with Big Zams, then start colonizing our universe with red big zams, and they would discover all of the different fictional franchises made by humanity, then they would invade those universes, and colonize them with mar red big zams, at this point the multiverse would be painted red by char, and everything would start moving three times faster, and the apocalypse would start, as the multiverse would collapse into itself, from its newely achived speed, and everything that would continue to exist would be the red big zams, that would all combine together, to start a new world of big zams, and only one world would exist.

>>15716282
Would you put "designed the Big Zam" on your resume?

Thye'd have been better off sticking to regular mobile suits rather than going for expensive and goofy superweapons. You could probably make like 50 Doms for that cost of one Big Zam.

>>15716282
By that point in the war they couldn't mass produce it. They just didn't have the resources or the manufacturing capability. And even if they did, it was only as effective as it was at Solomon because it was a surprise. It was basically the first serious deployment of an I-field, something that the Federation hadn't really faced up until that point. Sure, it was able to carve out a chunk of the Federation's forces at Solomon, but on a strategic level the Federation would adapt. By late December they had pushed Zeon off of Earth and had driven them back to their pre-war territory in space, giving the Federation plenty of room and thus the time needed to analyze the threat posed by an I-field equipped mobile armor and change their tactics and equipment to counter it. At that point the sheer expense of producing the Big Zam, combined with its reduced effectiveness because it no longer has the element of surprise, would leave Zeon in much the same position as before.

Zeon's pursuit of a few big and impressive mobile armors instead of focusing on their rank-and-file (you know, the people who actually win wars) was part of the reason why they lost. That, and the inability to last in the long run. They just couldn't replace their losses in people and equipment as effectively as the Federation. So not only were they at a disadvantage in terms of total resources, the Federation also had them beat in terms of intelligently using those resources, much in keeping with the WW2 parallels to the Allies vs the Axis. The Allies not only had more resources, they were also more efficient about using those resources on a large scale.

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>>15730051
Unfortunately, Dozle is acting like a saturday morning cartoon villain or a dungeon boss in an rpg rather than a base commander.

also, even Amuro is around, as long that Dozle didn't call the order to retreat, he would be occupied with the Nightmare of Solomon, while Big Zam is firing its "mah lazers" and sinking feddie ships.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdliFvpSpps&spfreload=10

Would making it bigger have changed anything?

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>>15730064

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>>15730115
Actually, you are quite wrong. Zeon has manufacturing capabilities on par or even greater than EF.

Between the Battle of Solomon to the Battle of A Baoa Qu, Zeon produced, Val Varo, Elmeth, Braw Bro and Gelgoog, Gelgoog Marine, Kampfer, Gelgoog Marine, Gelgoog Jager, Zaku 2 Kai. Heck, they were starting to produce prototype Qubeley.

If anything, they lost because the Gelgoog production was pushed behind by two weeks because of UMP and the retarded high command in Zeon acting like saturday morning cartoon villain idiots.

Dozle wants big Mobile Armors. Kycillia wants newtype weapons. M'Qve wants elegant mobile suits. Gihren wants superweapons. If only 1 commander would get his way, then the production would have an easier time and produce more, which would win the war.

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>>15716282
Yes it will be a big change.

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>>15730063
if anything, Big Zam is derived from the Apsalus project data.

So, if the simulation of Apsalus 2 destroying the Jaburo go by, the Apsalus 2 is firing its beam cannon in around thermosphere, so it has a range around at least 90 to probably 700 km

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO6nHzlcv-k&spfreload=10

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>>15730115
>>15730235
also, Zeon engineers are like the Tony Stark in the Gundam universe.

Hell, they built this Mobile Armor in a cave with nothing but spare parts.

>>15730354
more like the best toymaker ever

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>>15722594

There is nothing to indicate the Big Zam can shoot over great distance, and a simulation using a different unit doesn't indicate otherwise. On the contrary, there is circumstantial evidence in the show to say it cannot given that it never does despite the fact doing so would have made it's job easier. When it launches Dozle states that they should ignore the small fry and concentrate on the command ships in the back of the Federation fleet; despite this he flies in to the fleet and shoots at them from only a few hundred meters away and well within visible range. It's only ever used to fire at relatively close distance in fact. If he could shoot from distance, he'd have done so, because he could have immediately achieved his stated objective by doing so.

>>15722619

The Apsalus units have a decent turn of speed, but none of them have good maneuverability. And they're all both slower and less maneuverable than the Nu, which is what I was actually pointing out by saying that one of the reasons the Nu could be that big is because it had the speed and nimbleness to compensate.

>>15728019

> the operation limit is for the i-field
> the operation limit is only for it's defenses, it'd win without them

The Big Zam was shot almost immediately upon deployment with a veritable rain of beams. If it didn't have it's i-field at some point then it would straight up immediately be destroyed. And no, going by the animation in both the TV series and movies, it cannot just shoot from miles away and sink ships before they see it. Just because the Apsalus can, doesn't mean the Big Zam can.

>>15730051

> if Amuro is around, plot armor would allow him to take it down

As opposed to Dozle/the Big Zam's own plot armor making it immune to everything until Amuro comes along? Plot armor isn't just on the protagonist; everyone in a plot has it.

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>>15730058

> Sleggar's core booster smashed directedly into the weak underside of the Big Zam and it was still alive and kicking

Sleggar's core booster impacted below the knee of the Big Zam by the looks of things, and several seconds later there's still explosions happening on the undercarriage of the torso. It may not have been enough to sink the Big Zam on it's own, but it certainly did some damage.

>>15730189

> even if Amuro is around, as long that Dozle didn't call the order to retreat he would be occupied with the Nightmare of Solomon according to this video edited together from different sources

>>15730235

How many Gundams and GM variants did the Federation manufacture during that time? There must be about a dozen Gundams alone kicking around during that period of the One Year War, along with just as many GM variants like the Sniper, Gunner, Cold, Land Combat, Command, Night Seeker, Light Armor, Aqua, Sloep. There's probably more, but that's just the ones the Wikia mentions since I certainly don't know them all.

>>15730328

Doubtful, simply because there's only a fortnight between the deployment of the Apsalus III and the deployment of the Big Zam. Most likely they're both just based on the same technology and data, but given the disparity in capability between them Ginias engineered the Apsalus to be better than the Big Zam could ever hope to be.

As big of a Zeonfag as I am, probably not in the long run. I think having a whole herd of Zams would probably extend the OYW but ultimately a lot of Zeons issues with the Zabis being a clusterfuck, Char fucking around, and funding being hemoraged everywhere.

>>15733214
It initially hit the right leg, but it's momentum took the main blast into the undercarriage. The fact the Big Zam was still able to fire another of its anti air claw from it right leg (which was the one impacted) shows that even the main impact was to the leg, the Big Zam is one tough mother.

>>15730189
To be fair in Dozle's thinking, once the Solar System was fired, the battle was lost because nothing in Solomon could outright counter that, and they did not know when the Feddies would be able to prep it for another shot which made them all sitting ducks.

A strike against Dozle early on was allowing the Feddies to dictate the terms of the battle by sending his mobile suits forces outside the defensive perimeter of Solomon after the Feddies fired beam dispersal smoke. Girhen was able to properly counter this tactic by launching asteroids at the approaching Federation forces when they attacked A Baoa Qu.

>>15736400
For the sake of this argument. Let's say the Big Zam was mass produced and multiple units were sent to Solomon where Dozle deployed them early on. Right there the battle turns in favor of Zeon and more than like the Solar System gets destroyed before it's deployed.

Strategically, it's a blow for the Federation because they lost their spearhead fleet, but they aren't down and out because they still have their fleets at Luna II and their endless production from Jaburo.

Zeon winning through taking the Earth is out of the question, but if Zeon can conquer space, they could open up peace negotiations on their terms. (Maybe not an outright surrender of the Federation like in Antarctica, but something favorable for Zeon.)

To do this they have to cut off the ever flowing reinforcements of Jaburo into space and take over Luna II. With enough Big Zams (who have proper escorts and support.) This would be achievable. There is also the what if? of if Zeon was able to just hold off the Federation forces long enough for the Solar Ray to be completed and have it moved to a location that can fire upon Luna II. (That battle would prove to be decisive because the Federation would sortie everything they have to stop that.)

As for stopping the flow of reinforcements, There isn't much the Zeon could do for that because the Feddies always launched them federation controlled air space, so until Zeon took over that area and was able to create a wide enough intercept space to catch them, it's a fool's errand. (Also the Feddie Ships will fire back,so it's not a fish in a barrel.)

The final wrinkle of course is how the Zabis would react. Dozle is still alive so Degwin would not be resigned to peruse peace, which would stop that chain reaction from occurring. Char would still be a thundering faggot, but his plans would take a nose dive if Zeon gains space supremacy and he'd have to bid his time before starting a rebellion.

>>15716508
It was at that moment Zeon knew it had fucked up.

>>15720476
at least in the thousands

>>15716508
i want to be the pilot of a gm

>>15730235
> Zeon has manufacturing capabilities on par or even greater than EF.
No it didn't. Sure, it rolled out a bunch of different models, but by the end of the war the EF's mobile suit production far outstripped Zeon's. Zeon may have been designing, prototyping, and doing limited runs of a lot of different weapons, but when it came to actually building them in bulk the EF beat them soundly. The entire reason Zeon tried to aggressively take and exploit resources on Earth was because they simply couldn't match the EF for war production otherwise. Once they were pushed back into space, they were at a severe disadvantage in terms of war production.

And you whine about Zeon acting like Saturday morning cartoon villains, but the reality is that these sorts of mistakes have happened to major powers in real life. Just look at the inefficiencies produced by the IJA/IJN divide in Japan in WW2, or the blunders made by the Nazis in overemphasizing the V-weapons. Or look at the insanity around the production of heavy tanks in Germany and how often they were tweaking their designs in minuscule ways. On average, a Tiger tank was different in design from the tank only six units behind it on the line (which is a misnomer, since they didn't even use an assembly line for making Tiger tanks, they used a station system that makes more sense for heavy bombers than tanks).

>>15716508
Note: The Federation line up doesn't include any of the Balls that were at the battle. So the Federation force in that image? It's incomplete.

About as well as guns did against the Aztecs. Yeah it bring some amazing shock and awe, but it's a strategy that only works once, maybe twice.

>>15737845
>only that much
Fucking pussies, today's the 100th anniversary of the first day of a battle that took half a million.

>>15737692

> For the sake of this argument. Let's say the Big Zam was mass produced and multiple units were sent to Solomon where Dozle deployed them early on. Right there the battle turns in favor of Zeon and more than like the Solar System gets destroyed before it's deployed.

No, it doesn't, because there's nothing in 0079 or the movies to suggest the Big Zam could ever shoot it's mega particle cannon at the kind of distance that would be necessary to hit the solar ray at the kind of distance you're suggesting. To hit the solar ray it would need to get in close and open itself to a lot of enemy fire. As such, the only mass produced Big Zams we know of lack any shielding and will be killed before they can do anything, because Big Zam's are a beam magnet.

> Zeon winning through taking the Earth is out of the question, but if Zeon can conquer space

So is Zeon abandoning the effort to conquer Earth without the issue being forced because the Zabis never wanted to control just space, they wanted control of Earth too. Zeon might conquer space easier if they concentrated on that, but they'd never do so.

> With enough Big Zams (who have proper escorts and support)

This would also never happen, because if Zeon actually mass produced the Big Zam they'd have to not produce a lot of other mobile suits to manage that in the first place so they'd never have the kind of support necessary to protect them. Even if they could scrape together older suits to support the Big Zams those suits would have shit pilots, because Zeon was short on personnel and almost all the experienced people were already dead while Zeon was using untrained youths to fill suits. Those pilots simply couldn't do the job you're suggesting even if Zeon somehow had the material resources to build a bunch of Big Zams.

>>15737622

> It initially hit the right leg, but it's momentum took the main blast into the undercarriage.

I disagree. The core booster's momentum would have carried the blast past the Big Zam altogether, especially given that the Big Zam was moving in opposition to the core booster's momentum in the first place. The blast expands quickly to cover the entire underside of the Big Zam, but nearly 10 seconds later there's still explosions on the taint of the Big Zam, rather than down near the ankle where the core booster impacted. Given the explosion had already expanded and contracted I see no reason to figure that the second explosion is the core booster's body and not a secondary explosion it set off.

>>15716508
That's only half the federation force too considering that half of them got colony lasered