Mecha history anime panel

>>15682863
Be sure to mention Irritating Bowel Odor ruined gundam.

>>15682874
Oh hai, IBOrager!

I'll probably bring it up as an example of the genre or AU Gundam shows, but since so many shows have "ruined Gundam", I'm probably not going to be devoting a large portion of the panel to it. Might crack a joke or just simply say that I don't like it.

>>15682863
you need to talk about Megazone 23

>I haven't watched them but I'm going to talk about them anyways
Well okay

>>15682863
>with Getter Robo Armageddon being the reason why all these Dynamic Pro reboots got made or quite possibly just classic mecha revival OVAs in general

What? That's complete bullshit. There were numerous "retro" ovas in the late 80s and 90s and even more so, there were many Dynamic Pro animations during this time as well. Don't spread misinfo.

>>15682863
>Xagunle
>Dunbine
>L Gaim
>Transformers
>Layzner
>G Gundam
>big form of influence on the genre

>>15682863
I'd actually drop a number of those shows
Like, why is Raideen there? How is it important in any way?

I'd also get rid of
Xabungle
L-Gaim
Layzner
Evangelion
and maybe Toei Getter as well

As for what I'd add, I'd probably make some space for Tetsuwan Atom as the first human-sized mecha hero, Gatchaman for inspiring Super Sentai and being the first Tatsunoko hero show, Taekwon V for being the first big Korean ripoff robot and for being the first to use martial arts in a major way, Dougram for being the first Ryosuke Takahashi work Dallos for being the first OVA series, Go-Lion for being the first mecha show to become huge in the West (with asides for Daltanious and Dairugger XV since they're also related), Gunbuster for inspiring pretty much every other Studio Gainax mecha show (with an obvious aside to Aim for the Ace), Transformers Beast Wars for being the first show developed by the West to be definitively mecha beyond the shadow of a doubt (albeit there are earlier sci-fi works that come close, like the Centurions and Battlestar Galactica) and for taking the Transformers franchise in a different direction, and last but not least, the Golden Bat, whose comics have what I'm pretty sure are the first instances mecha in modern visual media.

>>15682959
Getter Robo Go and... what other retro revivals/reboots were there in the late '80s and early '90s?

>>15682967
Transformers was big in Japan, don't be retarded.

Dunbine one could make an argument for the fantasy mecha subgenre.

The rest I'd agree with.

>>15682983
>Like, why is Raideen there? How is it important in any way?
Raideen was one of the first series to be made working directly work toy manufactures throughout the entire design process. The partnerships with toy companies in general is an important topic as it relates to mecha anime, especially during the '70s.

Getter in general is important as the first series with combining mecha. I don't think I'd consider a large focus on it though.

>>15682927
Because it's one of the first mecha OVAs and cyberpunk anime in general, right?
>>15682967
>>15682983
Well, they are all actually pretty important.
>Getter Robo
First combining mecha anime
>Raideen
First transforming mecha anime, as well as Sunrise's first mecha anime and the first series directed by Tomino (at least the first half anyway).
>Xabungle
First mecha series to feature a mid-season upgrade and debatable one of the first comedy series.
>Dunbine
Debatably the first fantasy mecha series
>L-Gaim
First series to feature inner skelatal frames, which has been continually used in mecha series from them
>Transformers
First series to feature completely sentient, non-piloted robots which paved the way for the Machine Robo anime and the Braves series
>Layzner
First mecha series to feature an AI within the robot, which has been a recurring thing in many shows in the genre
>G Gundam
First AU Gundam series, which, due to the fact that most casual anime fans have probably watched an AU Gundam series rather than a UC one is probably worth mentioning
>Evangelion
I'd say it's debatably the first biomech series, but I could be wrong. It was also probably one of the most popular mecha series nationwide to not be edited into like Robotech or something.

The panel DOES begin with a brief summary of Tetsuwan Atom, however, and I'll probably make some space for those shows as well. Thanks!

>>15683013
>Getter Robo Go and... what other retro revivals/reboots were there in the late '80s and early '90s?
Tekkaman Blade
Orguss 02
Macross II
Mars
Giant Robo
Garzey's Wing
Gatchaman
Polymar

...To name a few.

>>15683013
>Getter Robo
Was not the first combining mecha (although it was the first TV anime centered around one), but the thing about it is that I'm not sure how much influence it can be said to have as combining robots almost never combine as impossibly as happens in Getter.

>first mecha series to feature a mid season upgrade
You've never watched anything before Xabungle, have you? The first mecha to have a mid series upgrade, as far as I know, was Giant Robo in its 60s manga, where it was retooled to function underwater. For TV anime, it's Mazinger Z, who also got water boots and obviously the Jet Scrander, and if that's not enough for you, Aphrodite A gets replaced wholesale by Diana A late in the show. It's also a comedy.

>First series to feature inner skelatal frames
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clSByJQm4Uk
They even made an action figure based on all this

>First mecha series to feature an AI within the robot
That was again, probably Giant Robo, since it followed commands instead of being directly controlled. For a talking AI, yeah, I can't think of anything earlier than Layzner, but it's also difficult to think of any talking AIs after it other than FMP

>I'd say it's debatably the first biomech series
A number of others came before it, most notably Guyver, the first probably being the original Tekkaman. Anyway, you said influence, not popularity, and the only shows I can think of that took obvious direct influence from Eva are Fafner and Rahxephon,

>>15683064
>Getter Robo
Since it was the first series centered around combining robots (Although I know some showed up in Tetsuwan Atom as did many giant robots, it that show wasn't focused on the concept of giant robots as a whole) while others combine in different more probable ways Getter was technically the first.
>Mid-season upgrade
I'm aware of those, or at least the Mazinger examples. What I meant by that was where the main character's mecha gets replaced by a different one, rather than just a few parts. While Aphrodite A being replaced by Diana A certainly counts, Xabungle was the first to do it for its main character. The only one debatably being Getter Robo G, and even then G didn't show up in the first 51 episode series in the Toei anime, I know it's in the last chapter of the manga. While I'm talking about anime here, I'll be sure to bring that up in the panel.
While I can't think of THAT many shows that did that after, it's very common in Gundam and other Tomino anime, and in Macross where Hikaru starts piloting Roy's Valkyrie in episode 19 to the end of the show if I remember correctly.
>Inner skeletal frame
To be fair, it seems less.... skeletal than most examples. Seems like parts you'd put on top of the skeleton.
>AI within the robot
Well, does Giant Robo really count as AI? I always thought it was completely sentient and it didn't work like the AI in Layzner. FMP does it, and so does Gargantia and if you really want to stretch it, Eureka Seven AO. I guess it'd be more proper to say the first series focused on an AI within a Real.
>Evangelion
Well, first biomech in the giant robot genre, while Guyver is more like Toku I know it counts as /m/ so I'll probably bring it up. As for influence... De:Vadasy, Dual! Parallel World Adventure, to a MUCH lesser extent Brain Powerd, etc.

All of this is subjective, though, so those shows might not mean much in other context.

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>>15683017
>debatably the first biomech series
>while being aware of Dunbine

Hell, even Raideen could count since half of that shit inside of it doesn't really look all that mechanical.

>>15683013
>what other retro revivals/reboots were there in the late '80s and early '90s?
2 Mars anime, Tetsujin revivals, Ishinomori titles like Cyborg 009 and Kikaider, Black Jack, Casshern, Gatchaman, Gegege no Kitaro etc. For Dynamic pro animations, there was Maju Sensen, CB Chara Go Nagai World, 2 Devilman ovas, Hanappe Bazooka, Cutie Honey, Violence Jack etc.

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>>15683116
>Since it was the first series centered around combining robots
Big Machine predates it by about 10 years.

>>15683135
OP needs to check out this whole thread
desuarchive.org/m/thread/15442210/
Lot of interesting stuff there that we'll ultimately never know about since none of it got an anime

Don't forget to mention the Japanese G1 shows if your going to mention the Brave series. Grendaizer or Ambassador Magma would also be a good, as they were first transforming mechs, though Ambassador Magma depends on what you consider a mech.

Be sure to mention Aquarion Logos is the most powerful bot in all of fiction.

>>15683116
What do you even consider to be the difference between having AI and having sentience?

Anyway, if we want to be REALLY pedantic, if you're going to bring up Gatchaman, it features combining vehicles that combine into a super vehicle and said super vehicle was blown up and rebuilt from scratch with new weapons IIRC. It started airing a day before Mazinger Z.

>>15683135
>mecha anime
>talking about manga

Why not have sections dedicated to Thunderbirds and Ultraman while we're at it?

Fact is, Japan considers Getter Robo to be the first combing robot in mecha anime: https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20140403002247/http://mediag.jp/project/project/images/JapaneseAnimationGuide.pdf

>>15683204
Well, usually complete sentience would be either a lifeform like in Transformers or if it's possessed through supernatural means, like the EVAs. I consider AI to be done through more explainable, man-made methods, like in Layzner, Full Metal Panic, and, in a non-/m/ example (kinda), Knight Rider. Might mention Gatchaman, but right now I'm strictly doing mecha shows. Maybe I'll do another panel on the Sentai genre some other year, I dunno. The panel's probably going to only be an hour long so I need to just do the essentials.
>>15683181
Yeah, I've literally never heard of Big Machine. I'll give it a brief mention of it originating some of the tropes of the genre and being a precursor to Getter Robo and Kotetsu Jeeg, but since I know literally nothing about it and a google search gives me nothing, I probably won't go too in depth into it.
>>15683190
Of course-- For the Braves Series, I'll go into a brief introduction over the Japanese G1 shows. With Grendizer, Brave Raideen came out 6 months before Grendizer did, but I'll bring up Magma as a precursor to Raideen.

I WILL also bring up influenced shows and similar series, though, so I'll try to give mention to as many of these as I can. Thanks, /m/!

just have a room party with a bunch of screens playing stuff and beer

>>15683338
Well, it's not like they ever actually explained what Rei was, especially since Rei was the only (apparent) AI in the show and the whole Full On business makes it doubly suspect. The show decided against going into Layzner itself's origins. Anyway, the reason Giant Robo appears to be an AI is because it does not have complete sentience and is incapable of acting on its own, but has enough intelligence to respond accurately to what Daisaku wants. Gatchaman is undoubtedly a mecha show; its heroes do not use a giant robot, but the villains do in almost every episode. The first episode does have a piloted giant robot, and like I said, it did air a day before the first episode of Mazinger Z, so it technically came first.

>>15683358
The Mazinger Z manga slightly predates Gatchman and Mazinger Z TV.

>>15683362
Well of course, so does Big Machine. I was just talking in terms of animated material.

>>15683116
>What I meant by that was where the main character's mecha gets replaced by a different one
Come to think of it, Dougram starts off with Crinn piloting a Soltic at first before he actually gets into Dougram

>>15682863
Take out L-Gaim and put in FotS Dougram. At least mention it for having spawned Battletech and Votoms.

Add Exkaiser, it kicked off Braves and much of the second Super Robot wave in the 90s.

Also, what is the one after Layzner?

Honestly OP, you're trying to do something far too in-depth for what you can actually pull off. If I were you, I would stick to discussing rough origins of the genre and then a few landmark series in a very limited capacity. Avoid making grand statements like "invented x" or "revived y".

I would structure it something like

1. Beginnings of popular mecha series via manga, the influence of Yokoyama's giant robot series, and the first b&w mecha anime series.
SERIES: Tetsuwan Atom, Tetsujin-28

2. The piloted giant robot anime boom of the 1970s started by Mazinger Z. The influence of Yamato and popularity of cyborg heroes like Kamen Rider.
SERIES: Mazinger Z, Getter Robo, Kamen Rider, Cyborg 009

3. Evolution of mechanical design and genre themes with the advent of Mobile Suit Gundam. The following '80s "real robot" gunpla boom and deveopment of mecha anime with the OVA format.
SERIES: Gundam, Macross, Votoms

4. The continuing mecha boom of the 1990s, where mechandising was larger than ever and many revivals of retro mecha came in the way of manga, anime and games. Gundam anime evolved in AU series and anime like Evangelion successfully created a late night TV market for mecha anime aimed at older audiances (usually reserved for manga or OVAs.)
SERIES: Braves, Gundam, Getter Armageddon, Evangelion, SRW

>>15683420
Oh I forgot to list some things:
>
2. The piloted giant robot anime boom of the 1970s started by Mazinger Z. The influence of Yamato and popularity of cyborg heroes like Kamen Rider.
SERIES: Mazinger Z, Getter Robo, Kamen Rider, Cyborg 009
Add Yamato and Gatchaman to this, along with their influence.

>>15683017
Yes, please do add Megazone 23. It kicked off OVAs and Cyberpunk like you said, without which we wouldn't have memetic mecha masters classics like Cyguard and Genocyber.

Evangelion is also fairly important. IMO it set the pace for 2000s mecha and you can see its influence in shows like Argento Soma, Fafner, RahXephon, and others.

>>15683064
The inner skeletal frame is more of a visual thing. That the mecha should appear as a figure with armored plates on top of it - even with some exposed internals - was a pretty novel concept at the time. Of course, it really isn't true that the idea caught on. It's more of a Nagano trademark than anything else.

>>15683413
>Also, what is the one after Layzner?
...Brave Exkaiser

>>15683420
For the OVA discussion to work you have to mention Megazone 23.

>>15682863
OP, here's an idea. Use something like >>15683420 's idea. Keep it simple and don't go in depth on any series. Just generalize and maybe point out bits and pieces (here is the pilder cockpit etc).

Then maybe assemble a nice pamphlet as a watch guide or something, with neutral descriptions of each show (no pro/con crap), an episode listing and a still from the series. Add any historically relevant facts. Then make a new thread and let us recommend series to add to this booklet, print them on some POD site and hand them out after the presentation. That way you might actually get some new fans into the genre and you can go in depth. It will set you back some money, but maybe you can ask the fair to reimburse you if they endorse your materials or something.

>>15682983
I think Eva is big enough to be worth leaving in, If you're talking about Eva from a history standpoint, you should also discuss Ideon. It seems like a rather large omission to talk about Eva as a major thing without discussing one of its primary influences.

>>15683442
Main chart already has Ideon, which no one has disputed, although if I were doing this, I'd may or may not replace it with Zambot 3

>>15683413
The one after Layzner is Exkaiser.
>>15683426
All right, if I have time I'll try to talk about Megazone 23. Thanks!
>>15683420
>>15683423
All right, I'll keep those in mind, maybe abridging some segments and devoting a paragraph to transforming hero shows like Kamen Rider, Cyborg 009, and Gatchaman, and space operas like Yamato on how they impacted the genre, as well as taking about the OVA format, the late-night market, and the model kit boom. I'll be sure to talk about SRW when doing Getter Armageddon. Thanks!

>>15683426
Well, no, Dallos is the first OVA ever and it has some mecha elements of its own, as I understand, though I haven't seen it for myself. Still, long term, being the progenitor of the format is more important than anything Megazone did

>>15682863
Will you record your panel or make a text version?

>>15683472
I'm writing a script, but if I can I'll try to have someone record it. In which case, I'll post it here.

>>15683064
>but the thing about it is that I'm not sure how much influence it can be said to have as combining robots almost never combine as impossibly as happens in Getter.
That has literally nothing to do with anything, you dumb spic.

>>15683135
>>15683181
>le ebin big machine meme
Do everyone a favor and kill yourselves.

>>15683452
>I'll be sure to talk about SRW when doing Getter Armageddon.
What relationship do those two things share?

>>15683442
>>15683447
Ideon doesn't warrant being in a broad history of mecha. It did not influence in any major way. Evangelion may have been influenced about it, but so what? Evangelion's own role in such a discussion is limited to its influence on late night anime productions and its popularity.

>>15683865
Fuck off retard

>>15682863
>local anime convention in March
which one?

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>>15682863
You better rep us yuusha niggas. At least mention Exkaiser and the GGG

>>15683866
Shut up, you retarded fanboy. You're a fucking idiot. Bye.

>>15683420
>1. Beginnings of popular mecha series via manga, the influence of Yokoyama's giant robot series, and the first b&w mecha anime series.
>SERIES: Tetsuwan Atom, Tetsujin-28

>2. The piloted giant robot anime boom of the 1970s started by Mazinger Z. The influence of Yamato and popularity of cyborg heroes like Kamen Rider.
>SERIES: Mazinger Z, Getter Robo, Kamen Rider, Cyborg 009
Wasn't 8-Man the first anime to feature a cyborg character few years before Cyborg 009 (which aired in the 60s)?

>>15684097
Read it again. There is no mention of who or what was first. It only mentions the emergent popularity of such characters.

>>15683867
Kawaii-Kon. Since Michael Sinterniklaas is going to be there, I'll be sure to ask a lot of GaoGaiGar related questions.
>>15683879
I will! Exkaiser itself is in the picture I made, so I'll be talking about that, and to an extent the Japanese G1 Transformers cartoons.

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>>15684164
Shit, I skimmed it. Always glad to see someone spread the good word

And good luck on the presentation!

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>>15684164
>Japanese G1
Well then I guess I should have posted this guy huh

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>>15682983
>getting rid of Eva
>Eva somehow isn't massively influential on mecha and anime in general

>>15682863
Legend of the Blue Wolves deserves a mention.

>>15682932
This.

Watch the series, anon. Nothing is worse than a panel talk with someone who is just reading from a script

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>>15683426
>Of course, it really isn't true that the idea caught on. It's more of a Nagano trademark than anything else.

Nigger what? The exposed inner frame has been goddamn everywhere, most recently with IBO. Katoki, Ebikawa, and dozens of other designers still use that concept. Bandai even based their whole entire MG and PG and RG lines on it.

To say that it hasn't caught on is complete ignorance.

>>15684233
Evangelion had a big influence on the anime industry at large. It wasn't the first show to target the late night audience but it was the most successful and is largely responsible for the rise of late night anime.

It's influence within mecha itself though... I mean, thank you Eva for Rahxephon and the number of other mediocre clones who failed to understand why it was successful.

>>15684452
Don't worry-- I have eight months to watch everything on here and I've already seen a good chunk of these shows (Or in Mazinger Z and Getter Robo's case I read the manga). The only time I'm not going to check it out in some form is for Raideen, and that's because it's not fully subbed and the two subbed reimaginings are... VERY different.

>>15682863
>While I haven't watched all of the ones here
>do my job
You're clearly unqualified.

>>15685187
Didn't Eva save anime itself? Couldn't Eva be responsible for some mecha anime being greenlit in the first place, even if they took no artistic inspiration from Eva?


Okay, I've not watched much mecha, like, at all, and know almost nothing. But this thread just feels like a mess.
I think it can be really boring if you just namedrop a bunch of mecha anime and say "this was the first to this, that one was the first to that". Instead of going "Dunbine was the first fantasy mecha anime", that may not be necessary. Present the concept of fantasy mecha instead, say Dunbine was first and also name some other fantasy mecha and say when it was popuar.
I feel that many of the innovations are pretty meaningless. Instead of naming first to do every innovation, I think it'd be more interesting to hear a story. How did mecha evolve, and how did things influence each other? Try to follow a storyline, don't simply jump from anime to anime without connecting them.
Also, bringing up the development in the last ten years could also be interesting. I don't know much, but my impression is that mecha is dead. What happened that caused this, for example?

>>15685389
>this entire post
I can almost believe that it's not a shitpost.

>>15685112
I've honestly been pretty ignorant of what went on in IBO. The most recent mecha show i've seen was Gundam 00

>>15684233
It's very difficult to pinpoint what Evangelion specifically influenced since Evangelion itself is mostly just Mazinger Z, but with a shitty protagonist and ill-defined villains. It was popular, to be sure, but the only reason I'm able to point to stuff like Rahxephon and Fafner as absolutely taking influence from Eva is that they straight up lift scenes from Eva wholesale.

>>15685854
I would say visuals and design were a big part of it. I was a casual fan of mecha, big into mechwarrior, gundam, I saw robotech and some gaogaigar and pieces of the SRW anime before I found Evangelion (i did not have anime friends and i rarely visited anime forums, so i found out about it just from clicking links in wikipedia.) The one thing that stuck out was that the robots were scary and demonic really, they conveyed a sense of raw power and barely-contained evil. They were organic and yet also plated, jointed and panelled so each one looked like a warped version of what I was used to in robots. It blew my mind and I loved the series until the ending. I didn't care for the introspection and the philosophical stuff - although I guess that's another thing that Eva helped popularize.

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>>15685983
>The one thing that stuck out was that the robots were scary and demonic really, they conveyed a sense of raw power and barely-contained evil
I think that's just the Mazinger influence showing itself once again. The manga version did start off with a kind of creepy, sinister vibe to it before it started lining up with the TV version, Nagai really took the "God or Devil" thing to heart. I just wish that Shin Mazinger ZERO had retained this kind of subtlety instead of doing dumb shit like giving Mazinger a mouth to roar at people

>>15686008
I think a lot of that comes straight from Devilman which Anno has directly cited as an inspiration.

>>15686033
Yeah, except there's a difference between a hero themed around the Devil and a giant robot that gives off an implicit sense of menace. Although Nagai's works all bleed over into each other visually anyway, there's hardly a point in quibbling over this

>>15685854
>>15685983
Evangelion was popular, but it didn't bring anything new to the genre and it didn't change the nature of the genre itself. It's pretty inconsequential to a discussion of the history of mecha, outside of "it was popular".

>>15683116

The Aura Battlers are bio-mechanical.

>>15682863
Eureka Seven
Code Geass
Valvrave
G Reconguista

>>15682863

Add Megazone 23, Gunbuster, and Iczer 1 imo. The former has been touched upon. Iczer 1 seems to be the first show that was as much for the perverts and the mecha nerds - a trend that would explode later on.

>>15686454
Iczer's fanservice is so tame that I don't even really think it's fair to say that. Compared to something like Godannar and its jiggling T&A every episode Iczer looks like a kids show, or at least it would if not for all the gore

>>15686454
I'll be sure to talk about those if I have the time.

>>15686448
While I love Eureka Seven, how did those contribute to the genre other than being popular but not as popular as Evangelion?

Also why would I talk about Valvrave

>>15682863
Mazinger Z vs The Great General of Darkness was crazy shit when it came out, talk about it's narrative diversion from the norm

>>15685854
>Evangelion itself is mostly just Mazinger Z
Is this /m/-level of insight? I've been taught it's basically Ideon.

>>15686788
It's got elements of both of those and even more, but much of Evangelion is inspired by Mazinger Z. Shinji and Kouji have similar circumstances involving the giant robot and their family. Mazinger Z represents Kouji's grandfather's soul, Eva-01 literally has Shinji's mother's soul. Gendo is much like Kenzo, and his relationship with his son is equally as strained. There is also the parallel of Gendo/Kenzo having a basically neglected adopted child that he uses as a tool in his personal war. Shinji and Asuka have a harsh relationship like Toei Kouji and Sayaka. Some might even say Kaworu is Shinji's Duke Fleed. Anno has also said that certain scenes are directly inspired by Mazinger, such as Eva-01's initial appearance.

Evangelion can basically be summed up as Space Runaway Mazinger Devilman.

>>15686788
I wouldn't describe it like that, but it's not completely wrong.

Anno himself in an interview said that the basic idea for Eva was a modernized Mazinger Z, with pilots training in the lab and such, but then production kind of went its own way. The same interview also points out that first shot of Eva-01 with a sideway profile in the hangar also came straight from the Mazinger Z manga.

The Ideon inspiration is mostly in End of Eva itself (and even then there are also Devilman elements there, like one of the early script versions of the final scene was a direct take on Devilman's manga, then they changed it over a couple of times before the one we got).

I remember seeing an old Ideon comparison with stuff like "Nerv is the Solo ship since they're isolated and don't have help from the outside world", but, if you think about it, a much more direct comparison would be with another lab protecting an underground relic hidden bellow it.

>>15686788
>>15686833
The Ideon influence is basically confined to parallels in EoE and the creepy nature of the Eva units themselves. Evangelion's basic setup follows the Mazinger Z science-fortress with teenager pilots formula. The Devilman influence comes out in the characters of Shinji, Asuka and Kawaoru along with the religious symbolism and of course EoE. There's also numerous other influences on Evangelion's visual designs, story, dialogue, characters etc. but Mazinger Z, Devilman and Ideon are probably the biggest.

>>15686833
>Anno himself in an interview said that the basic idea for Eva was a modernized Mazinger Z
I really don't see any elements of this. Like, there's plenty of aspects of Mazinger Z itself in Eva, but the other aspects really did not appear to be in keeping with the trends at the time. A better example of what Mazinger would have looked like in the 90s would be Exaxxion, the whole time I was reading that, it seemed like the culmination of both the structure of 70s shows alongside the more sci-fi and political oriented nature of the 80s. It was a very interesting read.

>local anime convention

People are replying seriously to this thread?

>>15685389
10/10 bait

>transformers g1 isn't an anime
Wellllllll, Hasbro got all of their assets and products for the IP from Japanese companies (the majority of which being Takara) and the production was outsourced to Toei Animation and while the series ended in America, it continued in Japan. Therefore, transformers g1 is technically an anime.

>>15686824
I'll be sure to bring that up when I talk about Evangelion, mostly the character comparisons. Kaworu as Duke Fleed might be stretching it, but I'll be sure to go over it anyway. One could ALSO point out that Asuka and Tetsuya Tsurugi (at least the one in the anime, Manga Tetsuya's a pretty chill dude IIRC) share a lot of similarities in terms of character, being "arrogant, hot-blooded pilot with an inferiority complex." I'd say that Asuka is like Toei Sayaka + Tetsuya.

>>15695147
>I'll be sure to bring that up when I talk about Evangelion
I don't think it's a good thing to include in a general overview of mecha history. Seems too specific of a discussion.

>>15695157
Yeah, fair point. Maybe I won't then, or maybe I'll just make an off-hand reference to it. For instance, "Evangelion combined the real robot-styled storytelling with character archetypes seen in Mazinger Z and its sequels" or something.

>>15695147
No, Asuka is just Sayaka. Both Sayaka and Tetsuya had a complex, but they were over different things. Tetsuya's was over Kenzo's affection as an adoptive son, bringing him much more similar to Shinji. Sayaka, much like Asuka, would continually deploy despite achieving abysmal results just to attempt to prove she was worth something. They both wanted to be known as great pilots, and both being continually shown up by the main pilots who would both call them out on their lack of femininity (yeah, even Shinji did that IIRC right before the Leliel battle), and this was the main conflict for both. The main difference is that there is a bit of irony about it with Sayaka since she arguably was a pretty decent pilot held back by a crappy machine. While she only got two kills throughout the course of the show, she was still helpful to Kouji half the time even if she was a hinderance the other half. Asuka was just straight up a bad pilot who should never have been put on the battlefield

>>15695187
>"Evangelion combined the real robot-styled storytelling with character archetypes seen in Mazinger Z and its sequels"
No. Stop. This is very, very wrong.

>>15695187
Real robot storytelling is not a thing. The storytelling is dependent on the audience and the director's style.

>>15695187
>real robot-styled storytelling
This is why approaching the mecha genre with the super-real divide is stupid. It makes you say dumb shit like this.

Shows in the 70s had a different storytelling because they were targeted to kids, and why that was the case is due to the fact that the otaku community wasn't really a thing yet.

When these kids grew, they wanted more adult storytelling in their shows. Manga was generally already ahead in that area, but anime was still for kids.This trend can be seen in anime in general, and not just mecha.

>>15695467
All right, yeah, fair point, I won't say that shit.

>>15695474
In addition to that, all these dynamic pro reboots for example are targeted to teenagers and adults for the most part, and generally have a more adult storytelling compared to the 70s series. They're still "super robots" though. It would be stupid to say that they're super robot shows with real-robot storytelling.

>>15695467
The vast majority of mecha shows have always been targeted towards kids. I can't even think of a mecha TV series from the 80s that was 100% objectively not targeted towards kids. The best I can come up with is SDF Macross, and that's only because that show appeared to target literally every person on the planet

And yeah, otaku were a thing back in the 70s. They weren't the same type we see today, but they absolutely existed. IIRC Nagai himself said part of what inspired Mazinger was his being a Tetsujin fanboy

>>15695523
Votoms?
If I had kids, I wouldn't let them watch Votoms.

>>15695523
>I can't even think of a mecha TV series from the 80s that was 100% objectively not targeted towards kids
Why do you think we're solely talking about TV series though? OVAs count as well.

>They weren't the same type we see today, but they absolutely existed.
I never said they didn't exist, but they were not a major part of the industry yet. Doujinshi of anime and manga began in the 70s and became a big thing in the 80s.

>>15695534
VOTOMS was toyetic as fuck, perhaps the most toyetic show of the entire decade since even Chirico went through a number of different mecha and custom versions of the same mecha, all of which had corresponding Takara toys and models. It's also a pretty simple story for kids to follow, and speaking of which, according to this thread (desuarchive.org/m/thread/15616396/), the manga for VOTOMS was written in simple characters so children could understand it

>>15695551
>Why do you think we're solely talking about TV series though?
Because while mecha OVAs are targeted more towards adults, that's more due to the inherent aspect of the format being a direct to video purchase than older mecha fans "growing up and wanting more mature storytelling," per se. Not to mention that almost all of the OVAs I've watched still have rather simplistic and immature storytelling and probably could be sold to kids if not for the tits and gore.

>but they were not a major part of the industry yet
Are we sure that all of the Mazinger clones in the 70s were just trying to recapture lightning in a bottle, or were some made by fanboys? I haven't heard anything about it either way.

>>15695602
>than older mecha fans "growing up and wanting more mature storytelling
How do you know that?

>Not to mention that almost all of the OVAs I've watched still have rather simplistic and immature storytelling
I didn't say anything about immature or mature storytelling. I said adult storytelling. They're not the same thing.

Whether something is mature or immature is up to interpretation, but whether something is adult or not is written in the laws.

>>15695649
>How do you know that?
Kids don't have money to buy direct to video cartoons. OVAs are going to tend to be more adult oriented regardless of content.

>but whether something is adult or not is written in the laws.
Laws that both you and I are unfamiliar with and that seem to be murky regardless. There seems to be room for blood and nudity in Japanese children's shows, and where the line is drawn is unclear. Genocyber is probably "adult storytelling," but is Gunbuster?

And speaking of which, how do you know that fans "wanted" adult storytelling? How are you sure that this wasn't just something that the creators wanted to portray and did so upon finding a medium by which they could?

>>15685234
>(Or in Mazinger Z and Getter Robo's case I read the manga).
That's not good enough. It's the shows that matter. The shows that had the greatest influence. If you haven't watched Mazinger Z and Getter Robo anime then you're not qualified to talk about them.

>>15695195
>"Evangelion combined the real robot-styled storytelling with character archetypes seen in Mazinger Z and its sequels"
Don't confuse Toei and Braves shows for everything outside of Gundam.

>>15695681
Hi xPearse.

>>15682983
Read John K.'s blog post on Raideen, it was hugely influential on American animation.

>>15683284
Thunderbirds is a British show but it is considered well-known and influential in Japan

>>15695675
>Kids don't have money to buy direct to video cartoons.
Kids grow up and become adults.
>Laws that both you and I are unfamiliar with and that seem to be murky regardless.
You know what I'm talking about. Excessive violence, nudity and language in excess are no go for kids, even in Japan.

>how do you know that fans "wanted" adult storytelling
I skipped on cartoons for anime in the 90s, and I know plenty of people who did as well. Same goes for Japan.

>>15695675
>how do you know that fans "wanted" adult storytelling?
Just take a look at Anno. He's a fan.

Enjoyed the violence found in the Mazinger Z and Devilman manga. He didn't care much for the Z anime which he thought was childish. He was around 12 at the time.

He was 14 when Yamato came out, and 19 when Gundam came out.

So to conclude, it's obvious he wanted adult storytelling. A lot of other directors will probably tell you the same.

>>15695760
>Excessive violence, nudity and language in excess are no go for kids
The very first fucking episode of Naruto has violence, nudity and language all at once. Hell, I don't think Japan even has the concept of swear words judging from how often I would hear KUSO or KISAMA and whatnot in the Eldran series. What does "excessive" mean in this context, that is what I want to know.

The rest of your post is non-sequiturs

>>15695787
That's exactly what I said though. We know it was something Anno wanted to do, but was there a clear demand for it among old mecha fans? I would argue there wasn't because the vast majority of mecha OVAs fell into obscurity and even some of the bigger ones got cancelled (Dangaioh, Iczer)

>>15695806
>The very first fucking episode of Naruto has violence, nudity and language all at once.
There's a difference between Naruto and something like the Violence Jack OVAs. You actually get to see nipples in those, and not just side boobs like in Naruto.

>Hell, I don't think Japan even has the concept of swear words
What made you think I was talking about swear words? You don't need swear words for a language to be considered adult. I've seen the word vagina being censored on Japanese TV, and there are plenty of ways to insult someone in Japanese.

And yes, Japan does have swear words. Where did you get your info that they don't?

>>15695806
>but was there a clear demand for it among old mecha fans?
I was talking about anime fans in general, not specifically mecha fans.

All I said was that the kids who grew up with 70s anime, wanted more adult anime as they grew up, which is something obvious. I use Anno as an example.

I don't know what information you want on mecha fans. I don't have it, and never claimed to speak for them.

>>15682863
What con? I wish more cons had educational panels.

>>15682863
Why the fuck are Getter Robo Armageddon and G Gundam included in that lineup?

>>15698053
Because fuck you and kill yourself

File: rad vlad.jpg (57KB, 188x200px) Image search: [Google]

57KB, 188x200px

>>15698382

>>15698382
it's a valid question.

>>15682863
Just watch them, dude. Who cares.