/m/ tabletop

>>15677636
Personally, I'd prefer a more complex kind of game. We already have a simplistic one. It's called "Super Robot Wars." You may have heard of it.

Customization is gonna be a tricky thing to handle because of the varying types of mecha. A lot of mecha are of the variety where it doesn't even make sense for them to be custom built at all (basically any fantasy mecha series could be an example). You're also going to have to take into account upgrade packs to keep everyone on the same level of balance. That's why it'd probably actually better to stay on the simple side for customization, just so everyone can play the kind of mecha they want to play as while the GM can at the same time explain why the chest mounted super laser is just a little more effective than a shitty VOTOMS gunpowder rifle. If you pick hardline stats, there are going to be some parts that are obviously OP based on what they should be capable of.

As for setting and robot types, I like the catchall approach best. Check out Xenogears or Kikaioh for examples. Have a setting that is capable of hosting as many different types of robots as possible. One day, I might feel like playing as Giant Gorg, and the next, I might want to be a Fafner, and then maybe the SDF-1 after that. The game wouldn't be much fun without seeing how various types of robots can interact

>>15677696
My exposure to SRW was actually under the knowledge it was a turned based RPG with plenty fancy attack scenes but I also never looked into it too much for that, turn based vidya don't do it for me in a lot cases.

Assuming the detail could be done for power levels and scaling, would that interest you better than the scaling being more nerfed? So if you want to run high end super robot you move towards the high end of the stat scale and inversely if you want to be basically a Zaku mook go to the bottom.

Gauging the ideas here, I'm getting where you're going with this. Workload isn't really a factor for me at this point, this is my long-term work.

>>15677636
are you here from mc/jp/

>>15677793
No, I don't even know what is.

I'm from /tg/ if that matters.

>>15677636
The question to you from me is 'Why would I not just use Mekton Zeta?'

Not being mean or anything, just wondering what makes it different?

>>15677636
Keep it mostly mechanical, but depending on the variety you want to go with have a few organic monsters to give off the full scope of the genre. Stuff like tanks, jets, missile/rocket launchers, apcs, subs, battleships, etc are good for cannon fodder/basic grunts. If you intend to have EMP and radiation weapons you could have something like silver/gold lined plating for resistance/immunity status at a hefty price.

>>15677756
Yeah, SRW is basically just turn based strategy game where you have a bunch of different robots with different attacks, but there's usually a strongest one that renders the others pointless and there's not much more to it than that.

I'm not necessarily suggesting nerfing as much as suggesting that you don't make anything too powerful in the first place and you leave yourself enough room to both explain failures and make upgrades feel like actual upgrades. And again, the point of this is to ensure balance so you have a semblance of an actual game and you're not in a SRW situation where you can just field a stat maxed Zeorymer and solo entire maps with it. Some robots do get ridiculously powerful. The player that wants to play as that Zaku mook is going to feel really damn useless against someone playing as Demonbane, which at its absolute weakest has an attack capable of destroying a couple of city blocks, and at its most powerful is able to cleave dimensions and control time.

Are you planning on making this an RPG or a war game?

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>>15677856
just wait until Aquarion Logos gets in a SRW title, I doubt even the chaos gods and c'tan would last multiple turns

>>15677843
A valid question. Mostly because I want to build on the gaps of where things don't exist or offer alternatives where they do. Doing my research into Mekton's systems is coming up next so I can't say of what it does beyond from my understanding of it skews more anime in focus but I'm not gonna make calls just yet.

My line of thinking is more building on things that need built upon. Do people hack Mekton to make it do something specific commonly that could be improved upon? Well there you go. It's why I'm asking /m/ upfront because well at the end of the day, they're the guys I'd like to play it or at least part of the group. If Mekton is what they want well then, give a go at trying to make something to compete if not for the sake of competition just for the sake of choice but if people want something else, go for that simple as.

>>15677856
It's leaning co-op RPG right now but I know one guy helping me with it wants to maybe try hack a wargame out of the bits left as an experiment but that'd likely end up as something different.

My thinking is actually flavours at power. You can make real and super stuff scale well together it's just a matter of workload and fluffing out equivalents in rough terms. Of course it's more my line that GMs would gather like minds for a game. It gets weird when you put real and super in the same room and let them fight it out I think but if people turned round and said they want to do that then yes I'd accommodate that. I'm of the "give the people what they want" mind.

>>15677877
>You can make real and super stuff scale well together
Of course you can, because there's no distinction between the two. I can see you really are new to /m/ if you're using these terms like they mean something. Which brings me to another question: if you're doing an RPG how are you going to handle certain scenarios given the different types of robots people may choose to play as? For example, you as the GM tell the party to go into a building. Some of the players are playing piloted or remote controlled robots and can do this, but there's one or two other guys playing as sentient giant robots who can't enter human sized buildings. These guys are going to be left out of a lot of scenarios, but the choice to play as that should probably still be an option that's there.

>>15677921
I was taught
>Real - Robots close to reality, things like railguns and boosters. Tend to be fairly restrained.
>Super - Robot runs on emotions, bit more magical/fantasy. Tend to be a bit more OTT.
Now if you're doing a demon-bane and a Zaku in the same campaign I think there is issues cropping up beyond fluffing out why their attacks are doing similar damage to the enemies you've lined up. Now Burning versus say Strike you can make comparable and let the players have their flavour but if both are needed is not decided yet.

As for differing size classes and themes, at some point I have to say it's the GM's own fault. If you have a group of three normal sized guy in whatever mobile suits or power armours and two skyscraper tall dudes who cannot leave their armours some fault needs to be allocated to the GM. Those players could buy drones or human sized lesser bodies to use in those situations but again, I can't fix every GM's problems. Yes, the option is there but should you play it is another issue. Now mitigation options like the say drones and other things can help but it's a band-aid fix.

These items may not even be put in together. If I'm told firmly "we want real robot" well then the super stuff and things tending towards that are cut. I can't and won't fix an issue that may not exist and can't really be fixed without some extensive precognitive powers.

>>15677977
The reason thinking about it in these terms is wrong is not only because no giant robot is remotely realistic in any way, but also because there are a number of examples of ones that blur the lines between super and real (00 Raiser, Fafner MK Sein and MK Nicht, even Gunbuster in some ways) as well as others that don't really fit either of the definitions you listed (Tetsujin, Big O, aforementioned Giant Gorg, Galient etc). There's also a number of shows that have hardcore operator mecha in the exact same setting as bullshit magic mecha (Full Metal Panic, sort of Gasaraki, King Gainer)

The point of telling you this is to say that it's wrong to try and set up a campaign and setting and expect to just drop half the rules at the door because there's always unrealistic nonsense in some form or another, even in the most "down to Earth" settings. And chances are, even if you try to keep a game as realistic as possible, there are probably going to be one or two players who get bored with it and want to leap into the fantastic. Be prepared for anything and everything.

>>15678017
Agreeable yes. It's why I'm going on a module approach. What you're talking about there is what I was leaning towards with parity between real and super. I draw the line down there because it's a good sort of dividing line but as you pointed out, not perfect.

Yes you can flame punch with your suits burning spirit but his armoured core has a pile bunker so rough parity can be found.

The problem is not building modular because things go to hell in a handbasket. When you have guys who can build the Crysis nano-armour and guys who can build fucking whatever OP shit you wanna use as an example it's gonna be impossible to balance that group. Of course what modules are worth writing...

It's hard to say right now. This is sounding out what people want. I'm not committing to dumping half the genre just because I had a notion, it's consideration.

>>15677877
Generally when it comes to Mekton I'm not aware of people hacking it to do other things - certainly not in regards to "real robot" type shit. Mekton is very broad in its approach, but it's also very rooted in shows like Gundam, Macross, VOTOMs, etc. As a system, I don't really think that Mekton should be utilized for super-style combat and storylines, simply because the system is very focused on that more simulation-esque gameplay.

>>15678036
It's a completely indefinite line because of that third category, the ones that don't neatly fit anywhere. I think it's best to just use power levels themselves as your line, since "super" and "real" also are meaningless when it comes to power level. I mentioned 00 Raiser. It's several dozen times more powerful than anything Go Nagai ever made. The SDF-1 comes from Macross, which is supposedly realistic, and yet it can take out small fleets with its main gun, making it just a step below Gunbuster tier.

The best approach here is to probably keep initial customization options limited in terms of power and don't give them access to anything crazy until mid game upgrades

>>15678082
A fair judgement call yeah, I can run with this. I'm seeing your point much better now, forgive if I was a tad argumentative, I was getting the wrong idea.

>>15678063
I'll look into this and see what super suitable systems exist if any. Thanks for the help Anon.

>>15677636
Hello fellow RPG-er. Allow me to give you some advice.

First off, take everything /m/ says with a pinch of salt. They're going to say they want a super-detailed game where every last screw is simulated, but a mecha creation system is not an inherently fun game. You have to balance rules detail with playability.

>>15677843
You don't use Mekton Zeta because it is fucked beyond belief. Dex/Reflex is the win stat so hard that doing anything but a 10 in that stat is not viable, and that's fuckterrible. It has the best mech creation system but that means nothing in the actual playing of the game.

>>15678221
I just add ten to everyone's reflex roll. Works much better.

>>15678221
>First off, take everything /m/ says with a pinc of salt.
>You don't use Mekton Zeta because it is fucked beyond belief. Dex/Reflex is the win stat so hard that doing anything but a 10 in that stat is not viable, and that's fuck terrible.
Like he said, take everything /m/ says with a pinch of salt. Especially comments like this.

The "god stat" issues with Mekton Zeta are very easily removed by having a GM who isn't fucking awful. It's up to your GM to decide the level of difficulty of your opponents and scale the difficulty of rolls appropriately. Failure to do basic GM things isn't a failure of the system.

There's a reason why non-skill check rolls are pretty much entirely opposed.

>>15678221

Right, so, if you want to address the Real/Super divide, you need a a core system that can handle the different ways mechs fight. Basically, you're going to need to think about defenses, between dodging, tanking, shielding, swordfencing. How a robot defends themselves is important for defining how combat goes for them. If Gundam has a shield and is the dodgiest motherfucker as well, then there should be a reason for that.

The other major factor is the effect of the pilot on the mech. A lot of indy mech rpgs decide to make the two essentially seperate, with the pilot having a few stats for RP, but this not really reflecting on the robot. This is....AN approach, but can rub some people the wrong way, as you gain simplicity and and avoid the exploitability of twin stat systems, but risk a feeling of disconnect between pilot and robot.

Think about what you mechanics do to bring across the feel of game you want: If you want a generic system that can handle many different kinds of games, then you need a broad simple core mechanic as a result. There's a reason why a lot of mech rpgs either go for an incredibly specific style of mecha, or go broad and end up seeming mechanically weak.

But ultimately, the best advice I can give you is not to spend too long online having a jerkoff session with /tg/ers who either love or hate your system. Ultimately, you have to go knuckle down and playtest your idea with some people, and see if it works. In RPG design, there is no substitute for playing your game over and over until you and your gaming group hate it.

>>15678255
>How a robot defends themselves is important for defining how combat goes for them
Can we not have everything boil down to being dodgy or tanky? This isn't SRW, tabletops can be more imaginative.

OP here, heading out for the night since I'm passing out. I will refer back tomorrow and take the feedback into account because it's a poor idea to try and do this while tired. I argued with that other anon for no reason after all. (Sorry dude, my bad on that.)

>>15678255
I did actually model a system where pilot stats did affect the robot in advance because I had an idea for it. Basically if you trained your pilot skills up you got small bonuses in those areas when doing the dance so to speak.

>>15678255
>The other major factor is the effect of the pilot on the mech. A lot of indy mech rpgs decide to make the two essentially seperate, with the pilot having a few stats for RP, but this not really reflecting on the robot. This is....AN approach, but can rub some people the wrong way, as you gain simplicity and and avoid the exploitability of twin stat systems, but risk a feeling of disconnect between pilot and robot.

I want to address this in some detail, because while there's no one right way, there's decidedly some wrong ways to go about integrating pilot stats into the game.

The wrong way is to have standard D&D-type stats and then a skill that's your Mecha Piloting skill. It's a mecha game. Characters are going to spend huge amounts of time piloting their robots. You either max out your Mecha Piloting skill or you're worse than you should be at a major aspect of the game for no reason. Don't do this.

There's also having four or five piloting skills, like your Mecha Dodging, Mecha Shooting, Mecha Melee, etc. skills. This is how Mekton does it and this is also bad. You either max out all of these skills or you're worse than you should be at a major aspect of the game for no reason. Don't do this.

In other words, the pilot's stats should not contribute to the raw numbers of the robot. It's bad design. You could try and rig up some fancy means of making every pilot stat have some sort of impact on the robot, but that's complicated and it's very rough to balance. Don't do it.

Instead, look at having the pilot contribute some sort of other impact on the robot's performance. I'm very fond of Giant Guardian Generation's Genre Powers system for this, where the pilot has a pool of special events that they can make happen in battle akin to SRW's spirit commands. Fate has a similar system with its Aspects, although I personally find Aspects far too loose and difficult to create as a player.

>>15678297

I would like that, but its a factor of what the core mechanics can handle. Having different skills for dodge, tank, shield, parry and shoot down might sound great on paper for 'letting the player choose to play their way', but the First Order Optimal Strategy will always be 'pick one and max it out, and then bitch at the GM whenever they use an enemy that defense doesn't work on'. On the other extreme of abstraction, you might have a situation where mechs are just an Offense and Defense score, making a simple tradeoff at creation which the player can fluff however they like.

Obviously you want something between these two, but just be careful that whatever your mechanical focus, that choosing a particular defense feels meaningful. If Defense is not actively rolled in your ruleset, why not?

>>15678302
>>15678308

OP appears to be leaning to a system of a pilot adding a bonus to a mecha, which is fine. I'd lean the alternate direction, where the pilot 'wears' the mecha: Outside the Mecha, you roll your d6 Strength, d8 Endurance and d4 Intelligence, but while piloting you roll d6 Str + d8 Mecha Power, d8 End + d4 Mecha Armor, and d4 Int +d6 Mecha Computers, for example. Which approaches works for the game will depend on the feeling intended: Is it a game of powerful machines which the pilots enable, or a game of characters using the machines to enable a bigger scale of action?

(Writing it that way makes it sound very Super Vs Real, that wasn't intended but is something to think about)

I'm actually not a huge fan of GGG's system, to me it sort of magnifies the disconnect between the two sheets (You can't use Genre Powers outside of your mech, so it doesn't feel so much like the pilot is affecting how the mech works as much as the mech has a few extra abilities which might change slightly if someone else is keeping the seat warm). Fate is closer to me (the official mech rules adhere to the 'mecha adds to the pilot' philosophy I mentioned), but as you say, the loose nature of Aspects is just not something everyone can grok well.

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>>15677809
Oh that's cool. I used to home board /tg/ until late 2015/2016 when my group dissolved and i stopped playing

You should take a look at the Mecha Press magazines. They covered everything /m/ from kits to anime tapes to fan stuff and battletech. So naturally there was some tabletop. I'm attaching issue 1 at the bottom for you to see. I see that >>15677877 mentions real and super - MP issue 1 stats an RX78 Gundam in battletech, an interesting mixing of power levels.

Personally I love flexible systems. I've had the experience when I try to sell people on BT even just as a wargame - if they're into other robot things BT isn't good for that. It may have Macross Dougram and Crusher Joe in it, but it is very much its own universe with its own scale, tech and powers. Mecha from most other stories don't integrate nicely.

Mekton on the other hand, is also very detailed but was designed to accomodate anything from a small battlesuit to a mammoth rocket punching super robot. It works well for a lot of scales.

If you want to make a mech wargame or tabletop RPG, you have to pick a route. Either you distinguish it with its own attractive lore and premade designs, or you distinguish as a great generic mech system. You'll at least be confident that your system is still supported, something Mekton players can't claim.

Great thread btw. Haven't seen posts this long in a while.

Here's the magazine:
https://www.mediafire.com/file/299vq2czz596fpd/MechaPress_iss1.pdf

I'm surprised nobody mentioned BESM. It's an orphaned system; 3rd Edition was licensed to and published by a third party in 2007 after the developing company had shut down. It's a derivative of Tri-Stat dX (d6 in this case) with the three stats being Body, Mind, and Soul. The core gameplay mechanic is 2d6+stat+mods vs opposing roll (or Difficulty Class). Character creation and advancement is through (somewhat lengthy; even moreso when playing with mecha) attribute point-buy.

The 2nd edition had official supplements for mecha-based gameplay. Basically you spent Character Points to buy levels of a Mecha attribute which would give you Mecha Points to spend building your robob. I forget the conversion rate but you get more MP than CP spent because you can only use your mech's attributes when piloting it (BESM supports separate pilot and mech RP). In 3E they generalized MP to Item Points.

Combat very basically boils down to using a Combat Value stat which is initially the average of a character's 3 stats. There are attributes to improve a character's Attack CV or Defense CV separately and ACV or DCV upgrades cost less than upgrading CV directly. There are even specialized/situational ACV/DCV attributes that cost even less. So it's possible to build a pilot/mech that is Good At Shield but not particularly dodgy or a pilot who's really good at shooting mech laser rifles but can't aim a Glock to save his life.

The biggest problem I had with BESM as a roleplaying system is it's a lot of work for the GM to maintain balance. There's nothing in the rules to stop a player from minmaxing the shit out of their character. Even if you give all players the same total CP balance, they'll inevitably choose weirdo priorities on how to spend them.

So OP here and since the thread is still alive I guess it's worth trying to get some last mileage out of it.

I've recently found out Mekton Zero was a thing... or not. No idea, not even the backers seem to know.

Would people be adverse to a Mekton successor/competitor? Assuming it had it's own merits to stand up on of course because looking around on /tg/ there does seem to be some issues with the core of it (it was listed in the flawed gems thread).

If people would look upon that as robbing the grave of Mekton I'll give it a total dodge, this project for me is more for the love of mecha than shooting for any major success. I wanna do it to give something back and for the sake of doing it and I don't wanna do something that could be construed as vulture like.

>>15682336

I don't think anyone will object to a Mekton clone, you easily have another 5 years before we see anything of Zero so you have plenty of dev time to make it good.

>>15678480
I tried running a BESM 3E game once.

One of my players made a character capable of turning the universe into cake.

By accident.

I would reccomend sticking to 2E or you end up basically having to make everyone characters for them.

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>>15682336
Anon, if you ever end up needing playtesters or something, lemme know. Beyond that, while having core mecha mechanics is important, you shoul take into account how important it is to handle progression and growth within a game. Like, most mecha series usually have their pilots either getting more skilled, or their mecha themselves getting upgraded during the course of the story.

Beyond that, I'd also want some focus on mechanics outside of the mecha. That's roughly as important in some cases, if you look at a series like Votoms that has a lot of action take place out of a mecha, and sometimes characters capable of fighting mecha without one of their own.

Something to reward narrative decisions would be neat as well. In terms of dice, I might have suggested something either using percentile dice, or 3d6 as a base. Either is pretty simple to learn and use.

>>15682559
I have ideas but it's more... I dunno what game to do yet is my thing. I was actually building something quite similar to Mekton unknowingly at the beginning but I wanted to stop and perhaps see if I was missing something (Mekton it turns out), since then it's just actually been building general mecha ideas into a 'toolkit' so to speak to assemble into the final thing.

So I'm in this weird place of I actually do have mechanics for humans outside of mechs and things competing with them on their level. Originally there were rules for androids and cyborgs (a la Metal Gear Rising) that could take on mechs but in function played more like middle ground units because they typically weren't as flat out powerful. However it was mostly terms and needing to change the numbers that prevented you using it to fluff out Master Asia and his mighty towel.

In terms of dice right now I've been working on d10 dice pools (roll under since it was tending more towards darker and real robot) for the nicer distribution versus percentile. I've not much experience with 3d6 though so I'll need to look into that.

>>15682623
If you were going to make a derivative of Mekton, my recommendation would be to provide a strong native system for non-mecha interactions and combat. Mekton requires you to lean on Cyberpunk 2020 a bit to expand what you can do outside of mechs while still having rules for it.

A lot of other issues with the system, again, really come down to having a good GM. My general opinion on these matters for tabletop games is that a system shouldn't cater to bad GMs to force them to do basic GM things. If you can't be bothered to have knowledge of the system you're running, or give your players reasons to have and utilize non-combat skills, that's totally on you. Especially with older tabletop systems I see a lot of people who run around the internet spreading bullshit claims about systems because they just didn't hold their hand enough. Catering to laziness is how you get legitimately bad tabletop games, so don't.

>>15682515
>you easily have another 5 years before we see anything of Zero
My understanding is that Zero is in the later stages of development right now, so yeah, probably about 5 years before Talsorian releases it.

>>15683066
>If you were going to make a derivative of Mekton, my recommendation would be to provide a strong native system for non-mecha interactions and combat.

Fair, I can get behind this notion. I was actually building a post-cyberpunk based game before that got put on ice to do this with friends so it's a plausible notion and we have carcasses to carve for materials on the 'human only' level. I'm certain on not committing a style yet but I've got some ideas kicking around.

I'm thinking right now of building a strong core system with identity and then adding modules as a later thing which may get expanded out. Right now I'm just gonna opt for dissecting the forerunners and see what worked and what didn't.

To which end, anyone else have any experience with Mekton or even similar systems in the genre in terms of the 'landmines' of it so to speak? The areas to take note of.