What killed mecha? Was it moeshit?

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>implying anything can kill CHO KYODAI ROBOTTO

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>>15597382
Mecha is not kill. Try harder next time.

>>15597382
I don't know where the perception that mecha is dead comes from. It's just different than it used to be. There doesn't seem to be as many mecha shows aiming for older audiences these days aside from stuff that panders to nostalgiafags

And speaking of which, that's the part I find the most baffling. Nearly all the efforts at nostalgiafag pandering seemed to be focused on IPs from before the 90s. Almost everything from the 90s onward (with rare exceptions like Eva) gets very little in terms of new merchandise, SRW appearances or new installments (even in non-animated form), but some of those things are definitely old enough to be nostalgiafagged about. I want an Iron Leaguer comeback, dammit

>>15597382
The crisis of Bubblegum Economics, the end of the Cold War. I would explain further if I wasn't sleepy right now

>>15597439
Interested in this as a fan of Bubblegum Crisis.

>>15597421
But there are only two mecha shows this entire season.

>>15597382
But moe saved anime

>>15597382
Anyone who asks questions like these doesn't know shit about anime.

Stop using K-On!! images with your bait topics.

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>>15597450
>Re: CREATORS
>ID-0
>Heybot
>Thunderbolt
>ATOM the Beginning
>Frame Arms Girl
>Clockwork Planet

>>15597506
>Re: CREATORS
not mecha, only has one character that is a parody of mecha characters
>ID-0
3Dshit
>Frame Arms Girl
moeshit and girls pretending to be mecha when they aren't
>Clockwork Planet
not mecha, same shit with frame arms girls

>>15597562
>it's not mecha if I say it isn't

>>15597579
they literally aren't except for ID-0, the biggest stretch you could say is frame arms girls being similar to build fighters except that the girls are just human versions not mecha.

>>15597586
they're mini robots shaped like girls

>>15597562
You seem to have missed the point, which is that mecha, as an aesthetic, is still plenty popular. And that's all mecha really is, an aesthetic. I can't think of a single plot that needs mecha for the basic premise to work.

>>15597599
mecha is an aesthetic but some of those shows clearly do not have that. you can't say re:creators is a mecha show just because there's one character with mecha otherwise there would be a lot more shows categorized as mecha.

>>15597382
Fighting shonen faggots killed it.

>>15597586
FAG's are literally robots but autists get turned off by cute faces because they can't empathise with anything that isn't a gundum.

>>15597608
Of course I can. Both Iczer series have only one robot that's only used for a few minutes of screentime in both series. No one bitches about those shows not being mecha whenever they come up. I could give a number of examples of shit like this

What is and what isn't mecha comes down to your own definitions, but objectively, you can't deny that mecha is an element of the show

>>15597626
they look like human girls wearing pieces of armor, if they wanted to emphasize they were robots they should've made them more mechanical looking.

>>15597562
>3Dshit

>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE MUH TOOODEEEEE


Look if you're gonna be a bitch then you're never gonna be satisfied no matter what.

>>15597633
shaman king has mecha in it but you don't see people listing it as a mecha show now. iczer gets a pass because the mecha aesthetic is a focus of the show even if they don't get much screentime.

>>15597642
It really isn't. The focus with Iczer is girls fighting each other with beam swords and psychic blasts. I could maybe let it slide if you mentioned the Iczers were androids, but then again that never mattered for anything apart from explaining their powers

I don't know how recurring the guy from Creators is, but it's apparently enough for me to have seen it mentioned on this board before. And if mecha is a recurring element in a show, then it's a mecha show. That's all it takes for me. I consider shit like Samurai Flamenco and Tiger & Bunny to be mecha shows because why the hell not?

I haven't seen Shaman King, but from the looks of it, it's not something that happens except in like one or two isolated episodes. There's your difference.

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>>15597642
>because the mecha aesthetic is a focus of the show
I think that's kind of the point, of course people wouldn't call a series that happens to have robots but aren't an important part of the setting in general "mecha", even less if the main character isn't related to one.

That being said, Shaman King in SRW when? I really dig some of those designs.

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>>15597562
>people still bitch about CG

>>15597687
>a series that happens to have robots but aren't an important part of the setting in general
You could say this about dozens of shows, including virtually all tokusatsu, and practically every show where giant robots are not commonplace even if they are a central aspect of the show, including basically everything before Gundam, Giant Gorg, Dai Guard, Bryger, Dancouga, Dangaioh, Gravion, Evangelion, Rayearth and so on

>>15597711
>and practically every show where giant robots are not commonplace even if they are a central aspect of the show
>if they are a central aspect of the show
I think I did bad on using the word setting, but that was the point. If they are an important part of the story, regardless if they were a thing before or only introduced at the start of the story, it most probably can be classified as a mecha show.
And yes, there's a lot of tokusatsu shows that can be easily classified as that, like Giant Robo, Red Baron, Daitetsujin 17, and even most of the Super Sentai franchise.

>>15597382
No, it was Evangelion, then LNs buried the corpse

>>15597816
As far as I know, none of those shows have mecha that are important to the story. Very few "mecha' shows do. It's particularly bad with Sentai where you could just remove the mecha vs kaiju fights from the show and practically nothing would change whatsoever.

Almost all shows that have mecha use it as a stand in for protagonist superpowers rather than a critical element that the story is based around, and those that do use it as a critical element are usually those shows where the protagonists themselves are sentient mecha. Under this definition, some of the only true mecha shows would be shit like Heavy Object where the entire premise is based on finding ways to destroy giant machines using mostly on-foot methods which couldn't be duplicated with any other form of super power

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>>15597382
bad mecha killed mecha, stop using the moe boogieman

>>15597895
What does it say about K-on the Chirico is the most moe person in this image?

>>15597887
You're thinking way too hard about this and taking it to an extreme.
Yes, in a lot of cases you can probably replace the titular robot and just make it so the pilot uses its powers instead, but fact is, the giant robot(s) is there and is used regularly if not always, and that's what matters in the end.

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>>15597908
That Chirico is ridiculously moe, of course

It's just not fair to compare.

RIP Shioyama-san, you were an absolute legend

>>15597939
Yep, that's what I posted here >>15597671

I wouldn't even consider the robots being giant (or even being made of metal) to be a necessity, just that they show up regularly. Space Dandy is totally a mecha show.

However, I do consider it important to know what we're talking about when we talk about mecha, that's all.

>>15597635
they are explicitly artificial bipedal robots, jesus christ, its mecha.
do ypu think terminator isn't mecha because the T-800 looks like a regular dude for 2/3rds of the movie as well?

>>15597447
Golden era of anime (especially mecha) has happened during the era of japanese asset price bubble (1986-1991) aka bubble economy.
With the bubble being flopped, the japanese economy went into stagnation. Several entertainment studios have been closed or had their funding shortened. That's where shit hit the fan - the series have been recieving lower budget, so the stories and visual side were going south

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Kids.

>>15597382
Actually it was CG.

>>15597421
>I don't know where the perception that mecha is dead comes from.
Probably the fact that all the mecha of the last decade or so has been mediocre or decent at best.

Not even nostalgiafagging. I love lots of new shit, but mecha sucks.

XCX did the genre more justice than any anime has in years.

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>>15597641
>>15597703
The problem isn't CG, it's that no mecha series has ever used CG without it looking like garbage.

Unicorn might be the only exception, but ironically they didn't use CG during any scene that mattered anyway.

>>15598533
jeez what an ass, what genre were they promoting?

>>15598553
What about Macross Zero?

>>15598533
>Digestion Tranquillity

Sounds like a Tomino name

someone post the picture of the japenese kids saying robots are for old people

>>15597642
>shaman king has mecha in it but you don't see people listing it as a mecha show now.
No it doesn't. It has some spirits, namely the Guardian element ones, that look highly mechanical in design but they still aren't robots they are just ghosts. People bring them up here when talking about mechanical looking designs, but they aren't inherently mecha.

SEED killed mecha. Not being remotely shit posty just telling like it is because no one else has even noticed the problem is SEED's success.

SEED's design wasn't the usual mecha designed. It wasn't aimed at middle age men or teenage boys, it was instead aimed at teenage girls. Wait what? Yea, teenage girls were SEEDs primary market. They knew they already had the teenage market locked up and they would buy the Gunpla if the designs were good (Which they were) so why not aim for another market?

SEED was launched as the replacement UC. It was going to be the new universe AU's focused on and started off by retelling 0079 as a nostalgia jump off point but the way it handled it's self was vastly different to any mecha series before it. Instead of 1/2 openings and endings we ended up with 4 and multiple insert songs. These were pop music by singers popular with teenage girls because then they would buy the CDs. A second revenue suddenly opens up that has a lot of disposable income but is dumb enough to spend it on stuff normal fans would just pirate. Add to this all the trickets, gassapons and other novelties and you can see why SEED's attempt to appeal to roasties worked.

So now you have the mecha blue print. But then we take a step deeper and realise that anime's primary market has also changed from teenage boys to older teenage girls. The fujos are spending a shit ton of money on bullshit that costs nothing to make. This isn't Gunpla designing it's 3D sculpting generic funko pop type shit and selling it at a premium. Change the hair and you have 10 different SD figures to sell at £5 a pop, got to get them all or at least the pairing you want to fuck. So now you have the homosexual element but you also need the ability for women to relate without feeling threatened by the characters.

>>15598669
they're the spirits of cars and they look mechanical, they're mecha

Bandai

The alpha males in this case are the strong but mentally fragile Kira (dangerous but never to Lacus) and Athrun who's the more dangerous option who wouldn't hurt her but goes looking for a fight. Kira is Edward, Athrun is Jacob. Lacus is the female self insert who just some how gets everything and turns out to be THE VERY BESTEST STRONG PERSON EVER even though she never earns it and is mostly just a circus master.

So now we have this female lead anime scene, this female lead marketing scene and they ask themselves what anime should they make? Which leads us to how bland modern mecha is. It's bland because it doesn't try to appeal to it's standard demographic any more. They aim at yokai watch's audience or they aim at the women wanting mecha Twilight.

How do we fix this? We likely can't. Moe shit is the perfect vehicle for this new fujo era. It's bland, no one really does anything but it allows you to make shipping blogs and buy cheap Chinese made plastic shit.

You're living in the Tumblr era of entertainment. Not the blue hair tumblr but the average live journal user type tumblr. Shipping, animated gifs and buying gashapons so you can get your KiraxLacus/Athrun pairing to go on your desk.

If you want good mecha hope for passion projects like Mazinkaider SKL and Sunrise appealing to UC oldfags. Nothing else is going to be as profitable because you don't have millions of idiotic women wanting to pay a 5000% mark up on their plastic junk

>>15598553
Buddy Complex

>>15597382
Those girls are so ugly.

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>>15598707

>>15598691
Twilight hasn't been popular for almost 5 years now. Are you gonna tell us about this awful new pop group called NSYNC next?

>>15598713
but its the truth

the ugly truth

>>15598719
Twilight is the most known example and one of the easiest to explain. Just because it isn't still top of the heap doesn't mean the same format isn't used.

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>>15597382
>anime was good and cool for adults until kyoani invented moe with lucky star in 1999 then anime was shit

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>>15597382
Mecha is not dead, we still have a good number mecha animes being made, not mattering here their quality whatsover, but is not the hottest shit anymore. Anime suffered a change of paradigm back in early 2000, japanese animation culture changed as their fans and creators, too. The cost for animation, tight deadlines and others aspects make it monetarily less worth a try for the majority of the studios today. Smaller studios do not have the ability to venture into the mecha genre, which would have higher production costs and a greater risk of return, than other anime genres that are more popular nowadays and cheaper to make. Thus, mecha today ends hold up mainly by studios that already have certain experience and greater presence in the genre.

Not just that, but Japan animation professional circles also have a shortage of new good mechanical directors, at least if compared to the 80's and early 90's.

>>15597382
Mecha is doing fine.

Western anime fans just need to wake the fuck up and realize they're not a market for anime anymore. Yeah, not a market. As in at all. Japan makes anime for Japan, not you. If something happens to be popular in the west then whatever, exports are barely even a tertiary market if that. So what's being produced now is what appeals to Japanese fans.

Just because YOU don't like it doesn't mean it's dead. Grow the fuck up and realize YOUR tastes don't matter.

>>15597562
> 3Dshit
3DCG is the future of anime, just accept it.

>>15597626
More like FAGs are literally cute girls but autists fap to their metal joints.

>>15598564
>>15598584
Don't see the Nike shirt? It's obviously new Basquash.

>>15598746
This isn't true any more. Sunrise and Bandai at least have noticed there is a global market for their stuff. This is why they're using youtube to release things now and putting up English subs within hours of the episode airing.

>>15598746
And yet the amount of anime picked up for overseas licensing has increased dramatically over the last five years. Evidently the markets disagree with your claim.

>>15597382
Gurren Lagann. It perfected the genre and there's no need to make any more.

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I blame the increased focus on maximizing blu-ray sales and seeing what works in the anime industry.

Look at any season of anime in the last 5+ years and look at how many of them are more than 1 cour. You almost never see a /m/ show that goes for 26 episodes anymore, let alone the 50+ range. Hell most of the 2-cour animes we've been getting lately like Valvrave, Aldnoah;Zero, and Concrete Revolutio took a 3-month break, and IBO took 6 months off.

Combined with how hard it is to find a good Original anime in a sea of manga and light novel adaptations, long shows are just really hard to produce these days outside of your seasonal Gundam. It's hard as fuck to do world building, character development, and shilling out new mechs in a 13-episode timeframe compared to a 26/39/52 episode timeframe.

To put things into perspective, pic related is the most successful new /m/ franchise from this decade.

>>15597382
kids don't like robots anymore, teenagers don't really care either way and adults prefer established franchises. Mecha never was exactly a very mainstream genre anyway, since it appeals primarily to a very specific type of anime fan, it just happened to produce a few massive hits like Gundam and Eva.

>>15597382
Really it killed anime in general.

>>15599049
Plenty of mecha shows get over 26 episodes, they're just mostly kids shows. And that's really the way it has been since the 80s. Time Bokan 24, Heybot and Gyrozetter are all recent examples

>>15597506
...everyone forgets about Drive Head

>>15599049
>I blame the increased focus on maximizing blu-ray sales and seeing what works in the anime industry.

Well, they've got to make money.
The Japanese economy has been in a constant downward nosedive since the start of the 90s. They can barely afford to pay the animators more than 50yen per frame drawn in most cases I heard, so not selling BDs or merch means that quite a lot of people are going to die of overwork and not getting paid enough to buy a meal. You can only outsource so much to sweatshops in Vietnam and Korea before the anime really starts losing significant amounts of quality. See; IBO.

This post >>15598684, while sorely misguided and fucking retarded, has a point.

What anime is made these days are aimed either at fujoshi and girls, who are much more likely to buy merchandise for the show, or their otaku counterparts, the kind who each buy 10 copies of AKB or Love Live CDs for their favourite girls.
That's the main audience for most television anime. At least, the ones that aren't strict LN or manga adaptations. You *have* to pander to either one of those groups if you want to make money in the TV anime business.

Anime for the average folk have always been relegated to anime movies. The biggest anime hits of the last few years were all movies. I'm sure I don't have to tell you how Kimi no Na wa is the 7th highest grossing 2D animated (western and anime) film of all time, up there with the Disney classics, or the 4th highest grossing film in Japan of all time, or just simply put the highest grossing anime film worldwide of all time.

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>>15597599
>I can't think of a single plot that needs mecha for the basic premise to work.

Not him but said like that it's ridiculous.
Mecha are a staple of science-fiction, you can't have spaceship plot without spaceship, all fiction aren't just a pallette swap of heroic-fantastic.

What is problematic is the creative bankruptcy of show about mecha, Mecha isn't only asthetic but too few story today use them for what they are, rather than how they look.
SCIENCE-fiction is dead, not mecha-looking story

in short I agree with (quoting a (you) I guess) >>15597887 >>15597687

>>15598553
>The problem isn't CG, it's that no mecha series has ever used CG without it looking like garbage.

That's subjective and yet objectively wrong.

Sure, the technology is young (relatively speaking) and studio/producer/animator have lot of room to improve. But 3DCG already demonstrated anime with a clear superiority for CG over old animation method. Lighting, smoke, timing, perfect spatial positioning, dynamic camera movement, copypasting entire fleet...etc

Anime like Cowboy Bebop, Macross Plus, Ghost in the Shell, or Escaflowne had incredible sequences that wouldn't have been possible if they weren't "Computer Generated"
Gundam Unicorn is technically CG everywhere, it's just not 3DCG everywhere.

Also I'm betting one of the scene "that mattered" for you have been made with CG and you didn't notice because of how well it was done

>>15599521
> Mecha isn't only asthetic but too few story today use them for what they are, rather than how they look.
I can count maybe two mecha shows total that use mecha for what they are instead of how they look. And the reason for that is that the vast, vast majority of mecha shows are not about the mecha, they're about protagonist vs. antagonist with the mecha tacked on to sell toys. Most of the time, you could just remove the mecha and instead give all the characters who used mecha super strength and super defense and little would change. This has already been done officially. Check out the Code Geass manga. It removed the mecha, and yet the story still played out roughly the same. It was total shit without the mecha, but that's beside the point

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>>15597382
>What killed mecha?

Mecha musume and all their ilk.

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>>15599680
>Mecha musume
>there's been like, 2 actual mecha musume anime in the past 10 years not counting magical girl shit like Symphogear, and they both flopped
???????????????????????????????????

>>15599680
>he believes this

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>>15598702
Anyone remember when the bland girl who did nothing but be a bitch didn't get the guy?

>>15599709
But Misa did end up with Hikaru
Minmay was fucked in the head, but she wasn't bland

>>15597382
>What killed mecha?
Correction:
>Why isn't mecha dead yet?

God I wish I knew why. I want this board to be re-absorbed into /a/.

>>15599745
>I want to have everything I might want to talk about buried under thirty billion fucking seasonal SoL threads
it's better this way.

>>15599686
>FAG and Kancolle
>flopped
You have a funny definition of "flopped"
Oh I bet you're one of those retards who thinks because YOU don't like something that means it wasn't successful.

>>15597382
No, the fact that giant robots is a retarded "genre" is what killed mecha.

nothing killed mecha but mecha itself. horrible casts and plots don't help a niche genre. like, look at aldnoah saying it would be better than gundam. then gundam turning around and being shit itself with ibo.

>>15599825
The Kancolle anime did pretty bad compared to the game and everything else Kancolle

While we're all here, can anyone recommend me some shows that aren't Gundam?

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>>15600222
Yeah this thread wasn't cancerous enough on it's own, make it a req thread.

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IT WAS ME /m/ IT WAS ME ALL ALONG

>>15600264
AWW SUNUVA BITCH

>>15597382
Moeshit killed anime.

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>>15600222
Martian Successor Nadesico

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There's a lot to say about anime now focusing more on the OTAKU market than any novelty.
Moe is only a subpart of it.
They know their customer have very targeted fetish and the goal is to cater to those, they can barely sell anything if there isn't a sexy 2D girl in it

"our customer are young boys at school who want superpower escapism and girl" -> how every fucking anime are made
"our customer are young men with X fetish?" -> make anime with crazy plot featuring as much of X as possible at the cost of quality
"our customer like little girl and WWII tank?" -> girl und panzer

If cowboy bebop was made today,
Every character would get 10 years younger
Bebop at his computer would gain boobs and frilly panty shot
They would even find a way to make bounty hunting into a school

>>15597406
MAZINGER ZETTO!

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>>15603523

This is why we can't have anything nice.


I get mad thinkin about it, but I guess the fault still lays upon the market demand for "x", and if weebz/otakus demand shit content, then so be it.

My god.....can you imagine +10 years from now?

>>15603545
Mecha saved by isekai of course.

The internet. Entertainment has fundamentally changed.

>>15597382
no, they just went out of fashion, that's how things go, sorry, nothing to blame

Just a friendly reminder: if you use the term moeshit, you might as well use "manime" like the autistic manchild you are. Moe has been around about as long as anime. Using it as some kind of scapegoat just because mecha isn't in its prime anymore is absurd and ignorant. Japan loves cute shit, always have and always will. Cute girls doing cute things will sell, always have and always will. It was inevitable. Just go back and finish all those series in your backlog you've been putting off, learn to appreciate things besides mecha, and/or be thankful and support the series that do come out, because mecha isn't dead.

If you want a shitty fad to beat like a dead horse, just look at isekai. It's 98% creatively bankrupt and sure to be discarded in a couple years, yet takes up a lot of slots each season. "Moeshit" is here to stay forever, but mecha may return in full force one day, even just as another passing fad. Be patient.

>>15603523
>>15603545
You guys are fucking stupid and your complaints about fanservice in the already fan-service laden and sexualised Bebop shows your retardedness even more.

Watch more anime you dumb fucks.

>>15603627
>just look at isekai. It's 98% creatively bankrupt and sure to be discarded in a couple years, yet takes up a lot of slots each season.

Out of the 40 odd full length TV anime airing, how many isekai shows are there this season?

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Because:
-Moe shit is more accessible and simpler than most of mecha shows. Like who would watch MSG or LOGH with "boring" politics when you can watch "cute" girls doing cute things or One piece which has a very simplistic plot
-The animation because when people compare Mazinger and, let's say, One Punch Man they'll think the former is boring because the animation is not as dynamic and colourful.
-The Generation gap: the younger generation always wants to be different from the one before it by acting rebellious and because "adults are boring"
- Finally, it's because the anime audience is not how it used to be, with the appearance of Otakus, who spend all day watching anime and who've never touched a girl before, so they try to self-insert as the protagonists of their Harem/Moe shit, to try to compensate for that.

>>15599327

>>Anime for the average folk have always been relegated to anime movies. The biggest anime hits of the last few years were all movies. I'm sure I don't have to tell you how Kimi no Na wa is the 7th highest grossing 2D animated (western and anime) film of all time, up there with the Disney classics, or the 4th highest grossing film in Japan of all time, or just simply put the highest grossing anime film worldwide of all time.

And why is that? How to make it average folk like TV anime?

>>15599521

>>
What is problematic is the creative bankruptcy of show about mecha, Mecha isn't only asthetic but too few story today use them for what they are, rather than how they look.
SCIENCE-fiction is dead, not mecha-looking story

Personally, it doesn't have to be sci-fi. I'm writing what is a war story, but set in the future. What indicates that it's in the future are the stuff you find in sci-fi, but I personally do not treat it as sci-fi.

>>15599603

Then how do explain the Front Mission franchise. Download and read this:

https://mega.nz/#!UdVn2LrA!LYGF9hFmHovMNm_a4aBDNbL-hq8jJIcLrtlHmtJIGbk

>>15597382
Card games becoming far more popular, stealing away their intended audience of kids and teens, which is the group that always got us the highest quantity and greatest quality /m/ series.

>>15603697
It objectively is only an aesthetic. Also, learn English before you shitpost next time.

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Theory:
The mecha genre wasn't killed, it is as great as ever but is simply corrupted by otaku fetish

ex : "Appergio of blue Steel"
The mecha design is sound, even if nanomachine is cheating
The plot, politic and strategy is sound,
More than enough material to make human-looking AI not stupid
Even the comedy is acceptable
(It's actually a nice reading yes)

But it cater to WWII fanboy, Waifu-nerd, and typical highschool casting
Reading the manga I've yet to find any of the above necessary
WWII fog ship aren't justified and are replaceable by a single panel about their apparition date
Waifu is actually justified but creatively limited, at best it's a brand for fog-AI
Young character are enforced by the chronology, but said chronology could have been pushed by 10 years with equal result

tl;dr
Great mecha story dive in cliché and fetishism to cater to otaku escapism

>>15603705

If you're referring to "What is problematic is the creative bankruptcy of show about mecha, Mecha isn't only asthetic but too few story today use them for what they are, rather than how they look.
SCIENCE-fiction is dead, not mecha-looking story." I apologize for not green-texting that one.

>>15603726
Ah yes, the hard science-fiction of Mazinger and UC Gundam. Truly the genre's souls have been weighed down by gravity.

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>This thread is full of manchildren with gunpla and chogokin on their shelves calling other people otaku.

>>15603753
Who are you quoting?

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>>15603757
Myself.

>>15598684
SEED had an overall effect on anime, Hirai face. I may be overexareggerating and slightly missinformed, but it's popularity led to it's character designer being asked to keep using that show's art style in everything else (it was either his choice, the studio's, or both)
It was a very simple style where one could not tell apart one character from another unless it was for their hair or colours. And not only did Hirai use it, but other artists in other shows too.
This doesn't smell like anything new, but tis happened on a quite large scale, leading to stagnation.

>>15597460
>>15597895
As much as people like using K-On to exemplify moeshit, it wasn't the show that sprung it. It was a symptom not a cause.

>>15603787
Yes, moeshit was the responsibility of works such as Dirty Pair, Bubblegum Crisis, Gunbuster, and Urusei Yatsura.

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>>15597382
I honestly don't understand /m/'s fixation with moeshit because as far as I can tell, the two aren't even in competition.

No it wasn't moeshit. The decline of mecha (I reject that's it's dead, but it clearly isn't in demand like it used to be) anime has multiple, extremely complicated factors that's just going to be ignored, but I have time.

1) Little japanese boys don't like giant robots any more. You know that image that floats around of the animator going
>I wanna animate cute girls
that's used as proof of the industry's decline? Far more relevent to /m/ is this one right here >>15598533
They just don't like them any more. And they used to be the core demographic. If your audience goes away, so does pay check. Most little japanese boys want card game shows these days.

2. Japanese people are having less kids, so that audience is shrinking even further.

3. Japan is still having economic problems

4. Japanese animators are paid like shit.

5. Because animators are paid like shit, no new blood is coming into the industry, and the old experts of the craft are dying before they can pass on the new techniques.

6. The rise of CG. While I think the bad effects of CG are overblown, it clearly is having an effect. With CG so prevailing, more people are learning that. They have the same problem with Toku, and western practical effects. The old masters are dying, and CG is taking it's place.

7. Anime is having HUGE supply and demand issues at the moment and it's hurting production quality.

8. Not just animators, but there is a huge brain drain with writers, directors, etc leaving the industry and not being sufficiently replaced.

There is probably more, but that's all I can think off the top of my head. Though I think the shift from little boys being the largest consumers of mecha, to japanese women had an effect as well, I not sure so I won't list it.

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>>15603750
>UC Gundam
Its SF is far to be only aesthetic (aka transposable as any genre).
Lot of attention is given to 0G, keeping air in, technology used, ship subsystem (kill the engine=kill the power), strategic and tactical mobility (interfering with a ship reentry) and plenty other stuff.
It's far from perfect but it was "mecha done right"

Your soul is weighted down by ignorance

>>15603696
I'm confused by your last point as what do you mean with moe shit, From what I understand.

>Cute girls doing cute things (Lucky Star, K-On)
>Romantic comedy (Toradora)
>Romantic comedy with harem (Love Hina, Nisekoi)
Tenchi is somewhere between these two above and below
>Battle Harem (Any show that goes "A teenage boy living a normal life until a cute girl falls out of the sky, and now there are battles and ecchi and he builds a harem, may contain imoutos") (Shakugan no Shana and clones)
>Isekai (same as above but the protagonist gets transported to another world, someetimes by dying and reincarnating) (SAO, Re Zero)

There is no problem with liking both moeshit and mecha

>>15603821
This is easily the most sound and intelligent post in this entire thread.

>>15603832
What you just described are stock standard space sci-fi elements. Things even Hollywood producers don't belive are beyond the average audience's intelligence and attention span. You'd have a harder time finding series where they don't apply than ones where they do. Find me an old mecha anime where sound doesn't carry in space, thrust is only needed when accelerating, and battles take place at ranges beyond visible eyesight, and then you'd have a point.

>>15603821
> 6. The rise of CG.
Please elaborate. I really want to hear any arguments against the use of 3DCG in anime that is not "muh 2d".

>>15603854
>Please elaborate
Maybe try reading everything in that numbered part after the first sentence???

>>15603861

Yeah, but you just said 'it's clearly having an effect' and 'the old masters are dying and CG is taking its place'.

What is fundamentally -bad- about the idea of using computer-generated assets?

>>15603819
The 80s in general is when it really gained steam.

>>15603821
>Japanese people are having less kids
They've been having more kids each year for about 12 years now. Kid population in Japan is growing.

Otherwise you're largely on point. At least more than anyone else in this thread.

>>15603874
I don't think he's saying it's a bad thing. He might have his own opinions, but he did say that the negativity surrounding it is overblown.
He was just saying that the old style of anime a lot of people on this board, and just Americans in general, have a nostalgia boner for is dying out. This is because the people who used to animate in that style aren't doing it anymore, or as frequently. Instead, CG is becoming more prevalent in it's place. That's just how the cookie crumbles. 2D cel animation starting going into decline mid-late 90s in favour of digital, and now digital 2D animation is going out in favour of 3D CG. Then whatever comes after that will replace that, and on and on and on.

Try to imagine it like paradigm shifts in science.

>>15603988
So it leads back to noslagia bullshit. People unwilling to accept something different from how they believe it ought to be.

>>15603838
The definition of moe can vary. For me it's anime that try to cover its mediocre story by using cute "kawai" girls, mostly lolies, to pander to Otakus. like K-on, Nisekoi...
So I think you're definition is right.

>>15603998
I don't have a bone to pick with 3D CG, but even I can honestly admit that most 3D CG anime aren't as good looking as a lot of 2D digital anime or even cel animation.
But that also goes for the early days of digital; shows generally looked like shit up until the mid 2000s, and even up to the early 2010s for some cheaper studios. These days there are a lot of really well animated or good looking 2D anime that are made primarily on computers. If we're talking about mecha, just look at the first season of Gundam Thunderbolt. The technology has improved by leaps and bounds. No doubt the same will happen to 3D CG anime. We're just in the early stages right now where a lot of people can be put off by the apparent low quality of the models and textures.

>>15604008
It's already happening. BBK/BRNK and ID-0 look great, in my opinion. The only problem is that they try a little too hard to imitate limited animation.

Why do people fail to realize "otaku" isn't just people who like harem anime or cute girls and that they've been a thing since some of them were even born?

>>15604025
*since before some of them were even born

>>15604017
Yeah, they're just getting into it. Sooner or later the studios will find something that's good for both them and the audience.
I just think that right now, without trying to imitate limited animation, a lot of people would find issue in it because it might appear too floaty. I can imagine there's a lot of difficulty in getting the movements to look weighted at higher amounts of frames per second.

>>15597382
>What killed mecha? Was it moeshit?

It's a contribution of factors :

Japanese don't fuck anymore and can't produce baby boys (the future of mecha loving audience) in numbers.
Adult males don't fuck in real life and need moeshit to satisfy them. Same thing mutatis mutandis for the adult females.
In other terms Japanese society is doubly fucked because they have forgotten the joy of real sex and family.

>>15604165
I'm sure oldschool Gundam nerds were getting laid left and right, though.

>>15603846
You confuse scale of realism with superficial setting.

I assume you are the one who made the argument >>15597599 about mecha being purely aesthetic (as something that can be replaced by anything).
This isn't the case with Gundam UC, its mecha couldn't be replaced by anything other than science-based large mecha.

If you want to make a point, you are the one who need to prove on an per-anime basis if their mecha are superfluous
Until you do the goalpost stay right were it started.

>>15604165
>this shit meme
>again

>>15604261
>its mecha couldn't be replaced by anything other than science-based large mecha
Except they could. Very easily. Stop being retarded.

>>15604165
Sup /pol/

>media is doing everything they can to eradicate TOXIC MASCULINITY
>people wonder why entertainment has gone to shit

It is a mystery!

>>15604351
>media is doing everything they can to eradicate TOXIC MASCULINITY

Mecha without masculinity is what gave us the epic moeshit that is Evangelion.
Bring back Masculinity in mecha heroes.
Bring back the supremacy of the male form over the female form.
Bring back the patriarchy.

>>15604371
>>15604351
who let those redpiller in?

>>15603922
Not if we're talking about moeshit in the modern, CGDCT paradigm that it's usually conflated with. I'm sure those type of shows have existed since forever, but they didn't start becoming a prevailing industry phenomenon until Haruhi Suzumiya got big.

>>15604340
/pol/ worships Japan as one of the few first world countries to remain committed to relative social and economic conservatism. You'd never catch one of them saying that Japan doesn't understand family

>>15604611
/pol/ is fucking retarded anyway. They'd be the first to blame "degeneracy" such as anime or whatever as the reason behind Japan's low birthrates and sex, despite there being absolute no evidence for that and there being tons of other reasons for why people in general aren't have children in advanced economies. The birthrate is low specifically because they're an advanced economy, and it's even worsened by the fact that they're a *poorly* performing advanced economy and has been so for 25 years.
The economy is the most important thing possible in a country. And Japan's economy isn't in the best shape. Consumerism/spending is incredibly low, even today. People don't spend nearly as much in other countries. This is a massive issue for the anime industry, as it relies on merchandise and DVD/BDs being purchased.
It's not that there's no market for mecha anime or anime in general, there definitely still is, it's just that people don't particularly buy the merch unless they're hardcore fans.

>>15604657
No, they usually blame it on the salaryman culture and long working hours. At least half of them are openly weeaboos just like the rest of 4chan.

But anyway, that probably has something to do with the anime industry as well. There are probably a lot of would-be adult consumers who opt out of purchases simply because they don't have the time to actually enjoy what they buy, and that would especially hurt collector focused luxury industries like anime

>>15604714
This is really where things fall apart for them. White people are supposed to work hard, but if they work really hard they can't have their "glorious" white babies for the white "race". Japan is evidence that everything those high-school dropouts idealise DON'T actually work in real life.

>>15604741
I don't see how you drew that conclusion from my post or even from /pol/ itself, and I suggest you take it up with them instead of posting on this board

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I'm pretty sure that if anything has been responsible for the decline of giant robots and their ilk it's Pokemon and it's offspring/siblings

Because giant robots's bread and butter audience was children, no matter what anyone says, and kids don't give a shit about anything about that stuff nowadays

I think the problem is back in the old days there was more of a delineationg between shit like Doraemon and shit like Mazinger, and then there came all these shows that said "You can have stupid cutesy designs and kid protagonists AND ALSO adventure and action"

>>15604765
Except there were cutesy, kid-oriented mecha shows with kid protagonists long before video games were even a thing.

Do you not know about Tetsujin 28?

Moe didn't kill anything I think /m/ has to realize most mecha related material is just shit.

>>15605337
After watching a bunch of obscure 80s and 90s schlock over the past few days, I've come to agree

However, back then, the shit shows only got one episode. Now, they get 26, sometimes even 52

Another thing I have is the idea the mecha is for kids only. I mean, if you want to make mecha for kids, make them like the Nagahama Robot Romance series.

As I said >>15603697, just treat Gundam-esque stories as war stories with sci-fi elements. Get people more interested in the war and the characters in it, whereas the mecha are there to indicate its in the future.

As to why I suggest segregating audiences, refer to Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans. That show got complaints for its content because it aired at a timeslot for children. Would it have kept those complaints had it been aired at a timeslot for Japanese adults?

The Front Mission franchise is a big example of what I'm talking about. It's a war story, but with mecha, and children were never it's aimed audience. Download and read that PDF from the link I provided in that same post.

>>15597562
I used to be a dipshit just like you, then I got over my irrational hatred of CG and kidshit to start, believe it or not, enjoying new mecha shows

>>15605686
> muh gritty war drama

>>15597506
>Thunderbolt
OVA/ONA series and films don't really count as TV shows.

>FAG
Since when did musume stuff count as mecha?

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"mecha musume" shit killed /m/

Proof: they made a Frame Arms Girls anime instead of a pure /m/ Frame Arms anime.

>>15605933
It's still happening this season, which was the point of the post. I guess I could have also listed Henkei Shoujo as well.

And if you're not going to count FAG, you can't really count Atom either. It's literally just >draw a boy >call it a robot

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>>15605933
>Since when did musume stuff count as mecha?
In theory the idea of someone or humanoid wearing technology to increase its power is /m/
In practice we have to dive into the cheap and disgusting reasons to exist to draw a line and keep that shit away from /m/

>>15597382
Most of people don't like mecha, or so think the producers. They don't make mecha for mecha fans, they use mecha as a background to tell some shit history in another genre. And since they see mecha as a male genre, they put some romance and drama to appeal to women and a broader audience and shit and limit the robots exposure because they think too much robots will make the show too dumb

Some shit like this, too drunk. Let mecha die, it suffered too much already

>>15606054

That got me thinking? Why the need to treat mecha as a separate genre?

>>15606260
Not a need but a recurrent necessity.
Because advanced robot are quite often a major plot point, not necessarily the focus, sometime they can be mostly aesthetic but when it's not the case it's a detail that people look for.

Sometime you want to know if it's medieval, or SF, or if it have mecha, (like Escaflowne have mecha without being futurist)

>>15606907

But if we treat mecha as a separate genre, what about everything else?

>>15607164
We treat a lot of things as separate genre, you just don't hear of it because the vast majority of people just look for shonen and /m/ only use it's board name to include a lot of genre/sub-genre.

Mecha+seinen = Mecha
Mecha+comedy = Mecha
Mecha+political = Mecha
Mecha+Fantasy = Mecha

But if you asked fan on another website who have board for those, I'm pretty sure you would have
"What killed Fantasy? was it vidyagameshit?"
"What killed Kun-fu anime? was it shonen?
"What killed Romance? is it haremshit?

Taken from one of these manga-online website
Action, Adult, Adventure, Comedy, Doujinshi, Drama, Ecchi, Fantasy, Gender Bender, Harem, Historical, Horror, Josei, Martial Arts, Mature, Mecha, Mystery, One Shot, Psychological, Romance, School Life, Sci-fi, Seinen, Shoujo, Shoujo Ai, Shounen, Shounen Ai, Slice of Life, Smut, Sports, Supernatural, Tragedy, Webtoons, Yaoi, Yuri,

>>15607190

And IIRC, weren't names like "Shounen," "Shoujo," and "Seinen," supposed to be demographic names?

>>15607197
It is, but why can't it be more?
Old as I am now, If I look for shonen it will be because I'm not looking for complexity or bloody/gore stuff. When I was young, I looked for Seinen because I hoped for more BERSERK.

>>15607262

Personally, I don't classify a work by just one genre. I care more about it getting off the ground. If I want to add shoujo elements in a mecha story, who's to stop me?

>>15607287

Oops, sorry. Meant to say "If I want to add shoujo and mecha in the same story, who's to stop me?"

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>>15607262
Thinks like shonen or seinen are just the demographic a work is supposedly intended to, it doesn't mean you can't like it if you aren't part of it, there's a reason One Piece is loved by people of all ranges of age. Not to mention, a lot of the moeshit a lot of people here complain about are actually classified as seinen.

I agree with, there's no reason why a work should be classified as just one genre.
>"If I want to add shoujo and mecha in the same story, who's to stop me?"
I can think of at least one example.

>>15607349
I can think of fantasy, shoujo and mecha with Escaflowne

>>15607393
>Escaflowne
It's was originally published on a shonen magazine, but that only tells you that thinking of those classifications as genres is stupid.

>>15607287
>>15607295
Please re-read >>15607190
I just meant that two genre get carried under the same name just because they share the same place or sometime the same problem.

shoujo+fantasy = Escaflowne but overall we will inevitably call it mecha first because that's a pretty damn important point to us /m/. If we were a shoujo board maybe we would call it fantasy first.

It's a great things to challenge our expectation and burst our bubble, The above is just how I explain thread like these.

>>15607402
Special case, the damn thing had a shojo manga as well. The anime is 50% shoujo.
What's stupid is to believe the classification are rules rather than simple tag.

I always found frustrating how easily we rebel against "arbitrary classification forced upon us" but can't recognize they'll be using those anyway in the same damn way just because it's practical

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>>15597382
>Was it moeshit?

Dumb summerfag.

Mecha and moe anime are not mutually exclusive.

>>15607465
Macross is shit though.

>>15607452

I did read it. My point is that /m/ can contain people who complain about teenage protagonists. We can ask about adult protagonists or women protagonists, but my fear is how old ought the protagonist be.

I can understand we've had way too many teenage male protagonists, but my concern is that most in /m/ would badmouth the characters and setting? Like, if there were a war drama with mecha in it to show that it's set in the future, and if the protagonist was just a teenage male who's already fighting, I call tell you most in /m/ would hate on the protagonist being a teenage male and be upset that the mecha aren't getting preferential treatment. Fine to focus on the mecha, but ignoring everything else comes off, to lack of a better term, immature.

>>15607465
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRUKQ3AP2t4

Didn't we kill Mecha?

>>15603854

It simply looks bad to many because it exists in the uncanny valley where it looks too far from fantastical abstraction ( which 2d cartoons almost always are) while not actually looking quite "real", which makes many people feel uneasy. Applessed Alpha, for example, actually was'nt too bad because it pretty much looked real, using CG in certain scenes in 90s anime worked because it was usually use on computer screens or on very specific shots that could be made to work with that aesthetic. 3DCG isn't inherently bad, Mecha 3DCG is just almost always trash because no one cares about the genres save the big names.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley

Aesthetically there is also a huge problem with the lack of weight and grittiness in CG animation that comes from not having real physical paints and lines to work with, and the excessively perfect proportions that gives CG animation a more sterile feel than traditional animation. It also lends it'self to abandoning many interesting artistic techniques that come directly from the craft of actually hand drawing - the shading is generally less dynamic, etc.

Maybe one day CG shit will look as good as a high budget 80s OVA, we aren't there yet though, not even close.

>>15603787
that and K-On! isn't even a bad show

>>15608571
>high budget 80s OVA

These don't even exist.
I keep hearing about MUH 80s OVAs but each one I've seen have been low quality garbage but with SHADING.

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>>15608542
Ok I think I understand now.
Well yes we go classify genre by what we consider its most important elements. /m/ was created because /a/ is a den of vile heresy and couldn't fantom the beauty of mecha, but they still talk about mecha show occasionally.

Escaflowne would fit in both Mecha and Fantasy, and a war setting can end up into romance.


>>15608571
We used to say the same about special effect in movie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bL6hp8BKB24

If anime generated as much money as live movie we would see directors competing and one-upping each other animation style. and we would have even more generic cash-cow franchise with no originality whatsoever

I'm very confident that someday someone will create set of filters that give you CHEAPLY all the beauty of a high budget 90s with the capability of 3D.
In 50 years the next generation might see "Plastic little"-quality 3D as cheap.