How to fix Gundam 00

Just dont watch 00 ever again, fag

>>15527229
>let Graham be Graham
His perversions made sense in the context of the themes and what happened around him. Also it made his movie redemption even more epic.

>It isn't some pacnea that solves all the world's ills
I have no idea how you thought 00 was saying that at all. Gundam 00 was a transhumanist story about how understanding needed to guide strength. You even realize this isn't what gundam was saying when you call it hypocritical.

>>15527229
>It isn't some pacnea that solves all the world's ills, and when the chips down, you need to be ready to fight.
I don't know how Neil killing Ali didn't tip you off that Gundam knew that.

>>15527298
By this point, Gundam already had plenty to say on the subject of 'understanding.' According to UC, while understanding one another could lead to promoting peace and preventing warfare, it could also just as equally not lead to anything at all, or even make things worse then they already were. 'Hey, I hate your guts!' 'I hate your guts too!' 'You know, maybe if we just understood each other, we wouldn't hate each others' guts so much. Let's give it a try!' Okee-dokey!' Hey, I understand you now! And now I just hate you all the more!' 'Same here! I'magonna shoot you now m'kay?' It isn't a cure-all that solves all the world's ills.
cont...

And yet, 00 seems to think it is, because it suddenly tries to turn itself into Macross and starts preaching that the only way to end warfare is to just understand one another and everything will be hunkeydory. It goes against everything Gundam had stood for up until now and feels almost like something from a different show atogether. And even Macross still understood that if understanding ultimately fails, which it can, you still need to be willing to fight if absolutely necessary. Which 00 seems to fail to understand, or at least when it comes to promoting its message.
But the biggest offender is Trailblazer, because to put it simply, it is a mess. A boring, uninteresting, two hour mess. Barely anyone gets any real development, those that do (like Nina) aren't developed convincingly, the 'plot' is practically thread-bare, and it ends by taking it's message of peace and 'understanding' to its illogical conclusion. According to Trailblazer, the only way to promote and uphold peace is through pacifism and understanding, and if you understand enough, you'll cause a race of metallic alien beings (which I surprisingly don't have a problem with by the way,) to turn into a giant yellow flower and spare the Earth from complete and total annihilation.
Again, if this were something like Macross, I wouldn't be so against it, but this isn't Macross. This is Gundam, a franchise which built its foundation on war being necessary to end conflict. What works in one show isn't necessarily going to work in another, and it certainly doesn't work in Gundam. It ultimately just comes across as stupid and naive, much like Marina herself. But the final quote was what really did it for me:
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be kept by understanding.
And not to mention, all of that still goes against the whole first season, which was about using force to bring about peace in the first place. And now you're saying they shouldn't have even so much as lifted a finger in the first place

>>15527298
>His perversions made sense in the context of the themes and what happened around him.
No it doesn't, and they desperately tried to simultaneously make him as Japanese as possible without literally racelifting him while also turning him into a Char Clone, taking away any real depth or subtlety he had and devolving him into a one-note archtype for Setsuna to go up against every few episodes.

>>15527334
>like Nina
What? Nena isn't even in the movie. If you're going to bait people, at least watch the source material first.

>>15527229
>let Graham be Graham
This.

The end of the first half of 00 with Graham showing up out of nowhere to fight with Setsuna has to be one of my favorite Gundam moments.

Mr. Bushido just couldn't live up to that.

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>>15527229
>It would just be nice to have him actually, you know, emote.
I fail to see how he did not emote, Setsuna's admittedly mostly stoic expression and apathetic dialogue is often broken by bursts of outrage, despair, and confusion. There's a case to be made that there is a severely buried sense of guilt as well. My second rewatch of 00, at least of s1, had me paying close attention to Setsuna. Setsuna's eyes unlike Mikazuki's eyes tell a lot more than Mikazuki's usually do, not to say Mikazuki's eyes never say anything but Mikazuki truly never emotes in the cockpit seat. Setsuna's, on the other hand express a mixture of things. In pic related Setsuna's eyes say he's in shock, surprised, and possibly confused, among other things is his ore wa gundam da thing is fun to watch. Admittedly, the writing of his character does struggle in s2, they want to make Setsuna into the leader but his abrasiveness is really unsuited to the office.

>>15527334
>everything will be hunkeydory
>Meanwhile every character talks about how there will be a lot of problems on the road to peace at the end of season 2 and the movie.
>even Macross still understood that if understanding ultimately fails, which it can, you still need to be willing to fight if absolutely necessary. Which 00 seems to fail to understand, or at least when it comes to promoting its message.
What about neil killing Ali after giving him a chance or Setsuna wrecking Anew's shit.

>>15527355
He mispelled Mina as Nina.

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Mina_Carmine

>>15527334
>Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be kept by understanding.
>And not to mention, all of that still goes against the whole first season, which was about using force to bring about peace in the first place. And now you're saying they shouldn't have even so much as lifted a finger in the first place
Notice they didn't say achieved by understanding. They said kept by understanding. The idea was that strength without understanding was the real problem. Also first season CB isn't supposed to be perfect.

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>>15527229
>It would just be nice to have him actually, you know, emote.
Did you actually watch the show.
>NIX THE PEACE AND UNDERSTANDING CRAP
Celestial Being, including Setsuna, pretty much kill everyone who gets in their way.
>starts preaching that the only way to end warfare is to just understand one another and everything will be hunkeydory.
ahaha WRONG.
It's even made a point in the show that understanding could just very well mean understanding that the other guy is an asshole who needs to die.

Change itself is the main theme of the show, not understanding. It's said so often, I'm surprised you didn't pick up on it.
"I couldn't change, so you'll have to in my place."
Change takes many forms, whether it's getting over desires of vengeance, accepting ones past, or even something as simple as realizing violence isn't the only path.

Those who couldn't change and were stuck in their ways, died or suffered.
Neil Dylandy.
Nena Trinity.
Louise Halevy.
China Bitch.
Ribbons Almark.
They couldn't see anything past their blinders, and thus were struck down for it.

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>>15527334
>According to Trailblazer, the only way to promote and uphold peace is through pacifism and understanding, and if you understand enough, you'll cause a race of metallic alien beings (which I surprisingly don't have a problem with by the way,) to turn into a giant yellow flower and spare the Earth from complete and total annihilation.
Setsuna himself doubts that communication will work, but feels compelled to do it anyway because he feels it's "the right thing to do".

>>15527541
>Setsuna himself doubts that communication will work
it doesn't matter what setsuna thought because in the end its shown that pacifism and understanding was the only way

>>15527589
>Pacifism
>Mows down tons of ELS on his way to establish communication with the hivemind
>When Setsuna refuses to attack the ELS, Graham explicitly tells him to keep fighting, to continue down his hypocritical path of destruction and peace.

>>15527534
>I couldn't change, so you'll have to in my place
My subs said change in place of me who cannot and I think my subs are much more apropos

>>15527334
>tarts preaching that the only way to end warfare is to just understand one another and everything will be hunkeydory
You didn't understand 00.
Understanding is just the beginning, holding dialogues is the true message the series was pushing for.

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I don't understand why you feel the need to compare 00 to other mecha shows like Macross and Votoms just to point out the type of protagonist/themes you personally want when you couldn't even perceive them correctly in the first place.

The story definitely has flaws that could do for some fixing, but the themes of the show were its highlights and I don't believe they needed to be changed or removed.

>>15527534
>>15527541
>2 autists who were at each other's throats in S1
>bonds over Gundam and Neil
>become transhumanist bros

I really liked Setsuna and Tieria's relationship.

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>>15527334
I thought about writing everything wrong with your bullshit but with each point I wrote it became more and more aparent how you either didn't actually watch the show and movie or, as is more likely, you're just constructing a shitpost by twisting everything people write about the show just so you can get some attention by the people correcting you.

Now I just want to strange you because its people like you who make the board worse and worse, you shitpost without a care in the world simply for the sake of shitposting

Fuck you

>>15527945
It's been a while since I've seen Trailblazer so I don't know if I'd agree with all the sweeping generalizations, but I largely agreed with what he said. It did feel like in the movie understanding was the only message it had. And while I'm not sure how they could have done it better, fighting until you reach the center of a thing and releasing understanding rays doesn't help reinforce the message.

>>15527963
I don't think they were trying too hard to send a message, just to finish a story and show off some animation. That last quote, the bit of text onscreen, that was good though.

>>15527589
Yes, understanding was the only way.
The important distinction here is between BRINGING peace, and KEEPING peace. You can bring peace through force which is what Celestial Being does in S2. But in order to prevent a second A-laws, humanity must learn to get along with one another. Keeping peace through force just breeds resentment and further violence.

The only thing that would fix 00 is if it were not made from the start.


Stargazer was the only acceptable gundam show to come out of the 2000s

>>15527739
This. Outside of tightening up a few questionable plot elements here and there the overall story and message of 00 was fine. Plus most of the issues were directly rationalised within the show itself had people paid attention.

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>this thread
I don't know if people are actually dumb enough to misunderstand 00 or intentionally twist and it around for shitposting but it needs to stop. It's not like it's even that deep, yet there are allegidly people who never understood the point or symbolism of the flower.

>>15528127
Stargazer's pretty bad taken out of context. Not saying there wasn't potential but the short format really didn't do it any favours,

>>15528135
Agreed, that is why I only said acceptable.

Even still, the seven seconds of character exposition was infinitely better and more impactful than anything from SEED or Destiny.

>>15528131
The flower's a meme at this point. But then there are actually people legitimately stupid enough not to realise what it meant case in point: ANN.

>>15527888
Trips confirm.

>>15528131
>yet there are allegidly people who never understood the point or symbolism of the flower.
Now you're making me nervous. The flower was supposed to meant the flower of hope that could spring up even in the desert right?

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>>15528611

It's because some girl once gave Setsuna a flower and it represented peace to him.

>>15528714
>That webm
And minutes later Heero was death-seeker.

>>15527229
>NIX THE PEACE AND UNDERSTANDING CRAP
This, it ruined Gundam.