Char, Haman, and Zeon

>>15449993
Char would have gotten Amuro involved spelling their doom. Kamille's reaction is one I've always been interested in though. Reccoa's too. Glemy would have definitely rebelled since he's a Zabi and Char killed a lot of his family. Mashymre's character may have changed since everyone would assume Char is banging Haman. The Argama may not have got to Shangri La.

>>15449993
>what would have happened if Char had joined with Haman during the Gryps Conflict and rejoined Zeon
At what point? Why?

I honestly cannot imagine what would cause Char to willingly work with Haman as part of her Neo Zeon. I know the original plan for ZZ/Zeta Part II was to have Char join her in Neo Zeon as part of a ploy to train Judau and assassinate Haman, but that's not really joining her - only pretending to.

>>15450006

How would Glemy even know? It's not like Char was going around publicly announcing he had directly killed Kycillia and helped set Garma up to die.

>>15450288
>I honestly cannot imagine what would cause Char to willingly work with Haman
Neither can I. But OP didn't say willingly.
Maybe if the AEUG decided he was a spy and kicked him out, though they would have to be pretty stupid to do that, he wouldn't really have anywhere else to go?

>>15449993
>what would have happened if Char had joined with Haman during the Gryps Conflict and rejoined Zeon?
Try to find the scrapped plans for ZZ Gundam series, where Char is kind of an ambassador at Haman's NZ.
>Would he have taken command or would Haman have kept control
She would hold the control, but Char would have some influence.
>Would they share joint control, as unlikely as that seems, or would Zeon have been plunged into a civil war even quicker than when Glemy tried to do it?
Char has killed Haman and took control over NZ.
> could it have been avoided altogether,
No way.

>>15450320

I still can't imagine him doing it in that case. I'd say it's more likely he just founds his own faction opposing Haman's Neo Zeon at that point, not that he joins hers.

>>15449993

> Would they share joint control

Doubtful. Haman only seemed interested in Char as a subordinate in Zeta, not as an equal.

>>15450329

> Try to find the scrapped plans for ZZ Gundam series

http://pastebin.com/0SkxGTUt

That one?

>>15450334
Yep.

>>15450331
And how would he get supporters? At the time the moods were divided between the Feds and the AEUG that simply wanted to preserve the status quo and the Titans and Neo Zeon that believed that a single faction should rule Earth sphere. There is no way he could have organized his own movement that would have been strong enough to oppose any of those if he didn't cater to any of those interests. Even in CCA he could only get Neo Zeon to support him because he promised them political dominance. If he was going to do something like that why not do it the easy way and just join Haman instead of creating even more ruckus? He didn't want power like Glemy.

>>15450360

Because he hates Haman and he doesn't care about taking the easy way, just the way that satisfies him ultimately.

>>15450369
He hated Haman less than the Zabis if at all and while I agree he doesn't care about the easy way making his own faction wouldn't have proven anything or given any practical results so it's bad on both fronts.

>>15450377

> if at all

You cannot possibly watch Zeta and think he doesn't hate Haman personally for using the Zabi name to revive Zeon as well as for using a child as a political pawn to do it. He doesn't hate her as much as the Zabis, but he still hates her. And it's only your own presumption that him forming his own faction would have no practical results - the reality is that his name still carries political cache (in fact, Zeta banks on it at Dakar) and that he could get followers just using his name.

>>15450360
>And how would he get supporters?
Before CCA he got the Haman's leftovers, old OYW veterans, people, dissatisfied with EF rule and those, who disliked Haman's Zabi restoration idea.
>At the time the moods were divided between the Feds and the AEUG that simply wanted to preserve the status quo and the Titans and Neo Zeon that believed that a single faction should rule Earth sphere.
Not quite.
>There is no way he could have organized his own movement that would have been strong enough to oppose any of those if he didn't cater to any of those interests
Yes, that's the problem. He needed funding, so he asked Anaheim's support.
>. Even in CCA he could only get Neo Zeon to support him because he promised them political dominance
Nope, CCA's NZ was a new organisation, where Char was the leader, while you imply that he was a sort of a figurehead for the NZ commanders behind him.

Char wouldn't join Haman because:
a) she just wants to establish dictatorship, not to change the society
b) she uses Zabi's name
c) she uses a child for her ambitions, thus the child won't have a normal childhood (and no power either).
d) He has a grudge against Haman (that's for those who have read CDA)

>>15450391
>You cannot possibly watch Zeta and think he doesn't hate Haman personally for using the Zabi name to revive Zeon as well as for using a child as a political pawn to do it.
I don't disagree with that in a sense that he was disappointed that she of all people has come to do that but I don't think he hated her personally as in a sense that he believed that she as a person possessed qualities that he found unacceptable. I think if you look around you can find enough evidence that he felt personally responsible for her.

>and it's only your own presumption that him forming his own faction would have no practical results
I agree I shouldn't have put it this way. Still if he formed his own faction he would have to fight Haman's faction. That would be unnecessary from a practical perspective and wouldn't mean anything to him personally, I think, while just joining Haman would allow him to easily take over Neo Zeon from the inside.

>>15449993
Haman is for sexy, NOT cute
delete this image from your hard drive immediately

>>15450427

> she of all people has come to do that

I don't think he ever held her in the kind of esteem that you're implying, or that he was disappointed at her behaviour at any point. Nor do I think he'd want to take over her Neo Zeon, for the simple reason that I don't think he cares for anything it stands for. If he took it over he'd have to change almost everything about it as a faction in terms of ideals and political goals. I think he' prefer to just form his own faction personally, rather than join someone he hates as well as have to change her organization to reflect himself. I just don't think the practical perspective is something he'd consider important.

>>15450399
>Yes, that's the problem.
That was my central argument. If he wants to get support he has to lie anyway so this makes the following point:
>she just wants to establish dictatorship, not to change the society
kind of moot.
>while you imply that he was a sort of a figurehead for the NZ commanders behind him
Eh, I wasn't implying that he was a figurehead so much as that they were mutually using each other.
Also what do you mean by "not quite"?

>>15450445
>I don't think he ever held her in the kind of esteem
While I consider this to be important enough to prove it I'd have to look for concrete evidence that he felt that way and I'm too lazy to look for it and even if I do you might still not like it so let's agree to disagree at this point.

>if he took it over he'd have to change almost everything about it
That is what I was trying to say from the start. Char's Neo Zeon in CCA wasn't that different from Haman's Neo Zeon in ideology or goals because if he tried to change those they would no longer support him Red Comet or no Red Comet, Casval rem Deikun or no Casval rem Deikun because people still have their interests.
So establishing one faction that preaches spaceonid supremacy to fight another faction that preaches spacenoid supremacy would be kind of pointless unless he had some sort of different motivation like for example wanting to establish his legitimacy as a leader which is something he did not care about. In this sense he is the kind of person that cares more about getting things moving rather than making them look pretty which means that even if he is not exactly a practical person, which he is not, he doesn't lack a certain dose of pragmatism.

>>15450487

> Char's Neo Zeon in CCA wasn't that different from Haman's Neo Zeon in ideology or goals

Haman's Neo Zeon was a monarchy that wanted to take over the entire Earthsphere. Char's Neo Zeon was an autocracy that had the specific goal of moving everyone off Earth by force and ruling only the Colonies because of it. Haman's Neo Zeon worshipped the Zabis and she ruled by cultivating and taking advtantage of that, while Char's Neo Zeon villified the Zabis and did not replace them with anyone or anything. He himself was held in high regard by the populace, but he seemed to make no effort to encourage it. Haman's Neo Zeon didn't seem to have anything to say about Contolism or even much about newtypes that I recall, while Char's was centered on those things. They're superficially similar organizations, and both organisations want to rule but that's about it really.

>>15450507
No, I guess that they are quite different in many ways but at their core they are both chauvinistic organizations which is the thing that Char disapproved of most.

>>15450523

Since when? He himself hated playing at politics in Char's Counterattack if that's what you're thinking of, but I don't recall him ever showing a distaste for or hatred of nationalism or government.

>>15450528
Even back in MSG one of his main complaint against the Zabis was that they twisted Contolism's basic tenets in order to encourage class prejudice.

>>15450533

So what? That doesn't imply he hates government of any kind and displays of nationalism - only that he hates the Zabis and for at least that one additional reason.

>>15450540
I think if you hate someone for being chauvinistic that implies you hate chauvinism.
I think if you hate chauvinism that implies you hate displays of nationalism.
I don't see how hating chauvinism implies that you hate government of any kind.

Also if you examine the actual central tenets of Contolism as Char himself has described them you will see that they are quite opposed to those of chauvinism which would further suggest that someone who would approve of them would disapprove of chauvinism.

Further Char has consistently opposed any sort of authoritarian government, which are known to restrict the free will of the people and to encourage class differentiation.

File: ffbfd06b7e44e2cf87ea43968251d934.jpg (32KB, 354x618px) Image search: [Google]

32KB, 354x618px

>>15450442

>>15449993
Honestly, I can't imagine Haman laying off her ambitions and just becoming Char's woman and leaving everything to him after years of leading AXIS.

Char wouldn't be content with just being her man.

Everybody keeps saying Jewdau could've stopped ZZ with his cock, but with Haman you either become just one more part of her life or die. If Judau was to give her his cock, it'd be to build her empire.

>>15450937
>Haman used to be dere genki girl who was flashing her panties every day
C.D.A. was fun, but I felt like it got axed too early and dragged on to the Deleted Affair way too long. I think it needed extra chapters describing how Haman and Char felt about what happened to Natalie and Char's early A.E.U.G. years, it skipped to Zeta like in span of 3 chapters.

>>15450951
Haman has a crude and masculine personality but I don't think she was as ambitious on a personal level like for example Gihren or Kycilia or Glemy or even Char. In her way she was a honest and simpleminded kid that wanted to do the best for her people and was pretty honorable in her way. She has been trying really hard on her own and wanted someone to recognize her efforts. She wouldn't have become a housewife for Char because it's not in her nature but if he acknowledged her she would have treated him fairly as an equal.
At least that is my perception of her.

>>15450960
>Haman used to be dere genki girl who was flashing her panties every day

Sounds like my kind of girl.

>>15450447
>kind of moot.
I don't understand.
Social change is not just the switch of the ruling type. You can have same kind of relations and social structure in constitutional monarchy, republic or dictatorship. During Char's perfect rule everyone moves into space and their descendants become newtypes, so they reorganize the social structure completely, while Haman is just spacenoid supremacist, that doesn't plan on changing, let's say, social classes.
>Also what do you mean by "not quite"?
Titans were the Federation ultra-hardliners, who have lost all kinds of support after Dakar assembly.
AEUG wants comeback to pre-OYW relationship with colonies (at least during ZZ).
EF just wants to suck the blood of colonists.
Neo Zeon wants to establish spacenoid supremacy and Zabi rule
But we're forgetting about a part of spacenoids who were caught in the middle and wouldn't agree to work with none of the groups mentioned above. Those who agreed to work with Char DURING the events of ZZ and later became the parts of Char's Neo Zeon, and, maybe, Glemy's rebels.

>>15450334
Well she was pretty wet for Char, so who knows maybe something else could have happened.

Also god fucking damn it. That proposed storyline for ZZ sounds so much more consistent with Zeta's context.

>>15451052
>I don't understand.
I don't understand either what exactly we are arguing about. I was saying that due to the class prejudices that existed at the time Spacenoids were hostile against Earthnoids and that all iterations of Zeon, including Haman's, were centered around those prejudices. Even though Char disapproved of that it was simply the reality of the Spacenoid problem that he couldn't have failed to acknowledge. Both Haman's supporters and his own supporters were ultimately those same Spacenoids that felt they should have the right to discriminate against Earthnoids because they felt discriminated against by them. Whether he liked it or not at the time those were the only people that would follow him because they were the only ones that had any interest in actively reforming society even if it was for a purpose he couldn't approve of.

>Titans were the Federation ultra-hardliners
>Neo Zeon wants to establish spacenoid supremacy and Zabi rule
Yes, as I said both faction wanted to gain supreme rule and establish some sort of authoritarian government.

>AEUG wants comeback to pre-OYW relationship with colonies
i.e to restore the status-quo
>EF just wants to suck the blood of colonists
They certainly didn't see it that way. The EF government was for the most part peaceful and well-intentioned but it's like they refused to take the Spacenoid problem seriously. Like, what's so wrong with people staying on Earth to claim only they have the right to do stay on Earth and rule over Earth sphere. Like, what's the big problem?

>>15451159
>i.e to restore the status-quo
The status quo before the Grips war was the EF under unofficial control of Titans.
>They certainly didn't see it that way.
Well, the state is the product of class relations. If the government doesn't care about the interests of the ruling class (and EF govt certainly cared), then why the hell are they still in charge?

>>15451225
>The status quo before the Grips war was the EF under unofficial control of Titans
Well, since they were fighting against the Titans then it would be natural to deduce that they would have wanted to restore whatever was before them. If the term "status quo" bothers you I guess I used it to denote that they didn't want to infringe the "rights" of the current ruling class i.e Earthnoids.

>If the government doesn't care about the interests of the ruling class then why the hell are they still in charge?
Eh, but as you said (and I agree) they do.

>>15450334
>Amuro, Hayato, Beltorchika, etc. develop a plan to rescue Judau.
The thing that saddens me most about ZZ is the absense of Amuro, he gets one mention as an off screen character launching into space and that's it.

>"I was searching only for Four. All I needed to do was understand that Four is here, even now." This is Kamille’s awakening.
I don't know how to feel about that. I like that he got his happy ending with Fa.

There's so many good ideas there, I really wish that one day we'd get a manga or OVA series that tells that story instead. It doesn't even contradict CCA, if anything it does a better job of setting that up.