What exactly is even wrong with Zeonwank?

It's the holocaust denial of cartoons.

There's no Fedwank to balance it out
GMs never get a chance to run a train on Zeon MS
Its boring really

>>15401625
What about Byarlant custom?

>>15401627
Byarlant Custom isn't a GM, but I'll count as one instance of Fedwankery

>>15401627
Looks like complete utter garbage in comparison to the original.

>>15401625
>he didn't watch the new season of Thunderbolg
Fucking Zeeks got shatted on front, left, and center from all angles. I don't think a single Feddie lost their life in Season 2 while there's already a mountain of dumb smelly spacenoid corpses.

>>15401643
There's hardly any named Fed characters to begin with, and only one named pilot in season 1. Plus the Newtype Corps jobbing to 1 ONE fucking Rick Dom, the first episode is like a team of 5 including Io getting blown the fuck up without managing to destroy a single enemy MS, the A Baoa Qu that the Feds actually win but you wouldn't figure they did by how they got 0 kills in the battle until S2 added extra scenes.

>>15401665
That's why S1 is worthless zeonwank trash. S2 is way better then S1, and there's not even a second episode yet.

>>15401672
Keep telling yourself that you feddie scum.

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>>15401616

you mean besides all the war crimes?

>>15401665

>Newtype Corps

Weren't they basically just "Fresh off the academy" teenage pilots being put into battle in an attempt to find the next Amuro Ray (or whoever Newtype pilot in that canon)? Also

>Expect literal noob pilots who had no actual combat experience to not getting their shit kicked in against experienced pilots

Remember they literally had to spray and pray to just kill the Zaku pilot before getting wrecked by the Dom

>>15401665
>Plus the Newtype Corps jobbing to 1 ONE fucking Rick Dom
Wait what? When the fuck was there a newtype corps?

>>15401616
They killed at least three billion people and no one else in UC ever came close to that.

>Thunderbolt erases the established fact that Zeon had to deploy child soldiers to make up for a lack of experienced pilots that were killed in combat
>Instead it's now the Federation that does that, despite always having had more resources and manpower

the fuck

>>15401705
Zeon was the underdog, everyone sympathises with the underdog,

>>15401625
For me Victory is the best Fedwank we have right now.

>>15401709

Germany was an underdog following WW1 too.

>>15401710
>Federation is too weak to fight Zanscare Empire
>Relies on militia funded by Anaheim AGAIN
>Outright collapses at the end of the series
That's Fedwank to you?

>>15401705
yeah fuck that, EFGF got like what? a Billion troops on stand by during OYW, pretty sure we can find some talented pilots in the vast billion of people.

>>15401705

I mean, we've never seen a child solider in Thunderbolt Zeon yet, but the reason the Feds deployed those children was to apparently find a second Amuro Ray in a horribly costly baptism by fire.

Didn't work out.

>>15401715
SNRI, not Anaheim. Different company. Your point stands, though.

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>>15401705
What, the Feds are using those teen soldiers because they're from a Newtype Labs. They're trying to force another Amuro Ray, its not because they're short on manpower or resources.

>>15401715
>Federation too weak to fight Zanscare Empire but they do it anyways and won, even manage to capture the Scrotum Laser
>Relies on militia funded by Anaheim and supported by various EFSF veteran from the Shrike Team, Captain Gomez and Co and lets not forget the Jamesgun and Javelin unit that helped League Militarie along the way
>Outright collapses 50 years later after they pull out every resources and manpower they could muster to save Earth

You never watch Victory haven't you

>>15401665
>Plus the Newtype Corps jobbing to 1 ONE fucking Rick Dom
>bunch of 12 year olds in GMs vs an adult ace pilot in a rick dom
>suprised when they get owned

>>15401692
>muh 3 billion

>>15401715
>>15401722
The Federation still had a ton of manpower in Victory, but they were bogged down by bureaucracy and didn't want to start another war even though they were literally being invaded by Zanscare. They "stalled" for time while more active elements in the Federation started up the League Militaire so they could fight Zanscare without dragging the Federation's name into it. That's why in the early episodes there's a tense moment where the League Militaire are using a Federation transport with fake civilian markings and Zanscare scouts are inspecting the plane. Also when the LM start operations in space, all they have are the obsolete Alexandria class and the non-standard Reinforce could be explained to Zanscare as being stolen from the EFF.

The LM is assisted by Anaheim, not SNRI. In fact, Zanscare's MS technology is based off BESPA which was a branch of SNRI.

And no, they're not in any danger of collapsing at the end of the series. It's actually just like ZZ where the Federation finally gets off their lazy bureaucratic asses and shows up with a bigass fleet at the end, except they actually get to take a part in the final battle of Victory instead of just mopping up after the battle in ZZ.

>>15401692
I thought they killed more
wasn't the total pop like 9 billion?

I always under the impression that deaths was somewhere around 9 billion minus zeon's population, divided by half

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Blindly sticking to an idealogical group is never a good thing.

>>15401747

And then there's these assholes. There's always some overlap between "people who deny genocide" and "people who think said genocide would've been a good thing"

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>>15401625
>>15401665
>>15401672

THUNDERBOLT
>Jazz for your soul runs train on Zakus and Doms piloted by crippled zeon soldiers

>"Waa! It's Zeekwank so it's shiiiiiit!"

0083
>Albion reks Kimbareid forces before going into space, kicking ass, and only losing Burning as a casualty

>"Waa! Zeeks still wooon and Kou is a cuuuuck!"

08TH MS TEAM
>The 08th Team deal with the most annoying asspulls imaginable (Including Spider-Gouf), but still manage to overcome the odds, survive, and kick Zeek ass

>"WAA! SHEEROW'S A TRAITOR AND NOT MUH JIM!"

Really says something when the fanboys of the side that WON THE ONE YEAR WAR act like entitled babies.

I bet if you losers were real fed soldiers, you'd still bitch and moan that you're not special enough snowflakes to pilot a gundam prototype or some shit.

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>>15401724
>>15401720
Did they change it in the OVA? In the manga, they're literally just nobodies with three months of quick training so the Federation can have as many troops as possible. The kids are NOT newtype corps, they never had any kind of importance like that in the manga. Claudia and Io even call them expendable later. The specific line is:

>"There's talk in the Federation that all of the members of the newtype corps are kid soldiers. They're aspiring to be like them."

These kids aren't the newtype corps. The White Base is the newtype corps. These kids heard of the White Base's accomplishments and were inspired by them. If none of the kids are newtypes yet, why would they call them the newtype corps?

>>15401777
Propaganda reasons (to motivate teenagers to join), the hope of forcing a newtype, so accurate designation plus a little bit of dark humour.

>>15401759
The death count hasn't exactly been clarified. What I know is that 2.8~3.0 billion die in the first week of the war due to indiscriminate use of WMDs, and the opening narration of MSG mentions that half of humanity is dead.

Here's some more info:

https://web.archive.org/web/20060715212623/http://ultimatemark.com/gundam/timeline_footnotes.html#footnote3

>>15401774
Alll of these times we don't see cool Federation action while Zeon suits get the spotlight a ton of the time. It's not about the end result, because the end result is 'Who has the gundam?' Zeonwank is about making Zeeks look cool and giving them the edge when it comes to the grunt fights. In addition, you've got to admit that ever since the original series, the Federation has been made to look bad and Zeon has been shown to be more and more sympathetic/have legitimate concerns, etc apart from a few incidents in Zet

>>15401616
Nothing. It's only when people start to take it seriously and unironically that it even becomes an issue, but the same could be said of the fans of any faction.

>>15401797
Sorry posted too early by accidents.

Zeta and ZZ; and even then when did the Federation be shown to have civilian support? People support Zeon in CCA, in Unicorn, etc while Fed civilians are indifferent or treated callously. The only time i can think of Zeon being shown to be unpopular is in the hospital scene in 0079 and in ZZ when Side 3 gets handed over to Neo Zeon.

>>15401774
Thunderbolt
>GMs dying in droves without a single kill

0083
>Zeon completes it's objectives
>Makes the Federation look incompetent and corrupt

08th MS
>No Fed outside the 08th MS Team gets a contested kill
>Fed high command are basically warmongers

Hard to believe the Federation won despite all animated material showing the Feds jobbing, and the Federation high command outside of Revil being completely incompetent and do an even shittier job removing REMNANTS OF A REMNANTS OF A REMNANT ARMY

Maybe the federation just isn't that good. War is comprised of different shades of grey.

>>15401814
Fucking Zeon why does it have to be a lighter shade of grey than the Federation

>>15401616
Were the sazakis a case of good Zeonwank?

muh samurai nazi shit
god tomino must be rolling in his soon to be grave

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Reminder that feddie traitors are the real enemy.

>>15401616
"Zeon is cool" is cool
"Zeon dindu nuffin' they was a good boy, feds are space racists" isn't

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>>15401937
also, fuck the corrupt federation.

other than Twilight Axis, Cima, and the Titans. how come you don't see much in the way of feds with ex zeon pilots, or zeon with ex feds?

>>15401972
No one likes a traitor.

>>15401972
Well technically speaking, if you regard the AEUG and Karaba as still being part of the Federation then they at least have ex-Zeon soldiers amongst them.

>>15401616
LE DING

>>15401616
Zeon are quite literally space nazis

>>15401950
>muh improvement
Meh.

>>15402158
With a little bit of Communism
Due tol the "I swear this one will be the one"

>>15401616
There's only one Gundam series that legitimately counts as Zeonwank and that's 0083. Every other instance of "Zeonwank" cited is usually a show that tries to do what the original Mobile Suit Gundam did: show grunts on both sides of the conflict as human beings fighting in a horrifying war as victims of circumstance.

>>15401616
No variety at all. Where is my anarchist spacenoids?

>>15401806
>GMs dying in droves without a single kill
Oh boobooboo! Casualties happen on both sides. Are you sure you know how war works?

>Zeon completes it's objectives
>Makes the Federation look incompetent and corrupt
Feds did that to themselves. Are you telling me Delaz drugged the bigwigs' kool-aid and made them plants for Hydra-Zeon? I don't think that's what happened.

>No Fed outside the 08th MS Team gets a contested kill
See above argument for Thunderbolt. Add another few boos for how whiny you are.

>Fed high command are basically warmongers
That was mostly Ryer, who even Kojima got sick of at the end with his dumb ass using Zapp Brannigan tactics just to infiltrate the mountain base.

>Hard to believe the Federation won despite all animated material showing the Feds jobbing

Oh you're right. How silly of me to forget the White Base team all died on episode one of the original series.

Your argument pretty much boils down "Waa! I want nameless redshirts to self-insert into! So I can say I'mma ace jim pilot!" You know that's what the video games are for right? Go play some Encounters in Space or Crossfire and make a profile. Pretend you're the special snowflake nameless grunt that does his part to win the war! Although given how entitled most fedfags are on this board, it wouldn't surprise me if they would keep trying to jump ship to Zeon just to prevent dying in a shoddy Ball. So much for "MUH EARF PATRIOTISM!"

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>>15402414

kys zeek

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>>15402433
I may be a Zeek, but at least I can fucking admit I'll still fight for my side no matter how many times we lose. Sure beats being an entitled little shit like you bitching and moaning because every skirmish we get into isn't a completely one-sided affair in your side's favor.

Go ahead and keep whining that your precious Gundam wins your wars for you, and not the shoddy used car knockoffs you're so proud of.

>>15401777
What's the practical application of male and female soldiers of equal rank and function to wear different colored suits?

>everything is zeonwank
>zeon never wins any conflict ever

I don't get it, why are feddiecunts so upset? They ultimately always win. Is that not enough? You want to fuck the dead zeon soldier's wife and daughters and have vanquished losers sing feddie praises for eternity?

>>15402477
Federation just wants to be /fa/

>>15401616
I know I wanked to the zeon girl from BF

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>>15402698
If you're not wanking to zeon, there must be something seriously wrong with you.

>>15401616
People just don't like nazis.

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>>15402477
Same as the practical application of 50 foot tall giant robots

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>>15402414
Ryer was a sweet heart when compared to Killing
Some times I feel the guy wanted the mission to fail just so he could have an excuse to blow up the colony with nukes
He even murder his comanding officer just so he could be in charge and order the nuking, with the pretext of destroying the Alex

>>15402804
With a name like that, I imagine you feel obligated to live up to it at some point

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>>15401616
Because it retcons everything that was established in the original TV show and manga. Zeeks were very distinctly depicted as the bad guys and the few good people that they head on their side like Ramba and Dozle were just unfortunate enough to be swept up on the wrong side. Zeonwank as we call it is those such retcons that try to justify the zeeks' actions as something righteous and to be glorified for it.

>>15402414
Casualties happen on both sides, so why do Zeeks only blow up when there's a gundam shooting them?

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>>15401625
>There's no Fedwank to balance it out
Except every series that's not MS IGLOO, everything becomes a feddie wank. Except for Zeta, which was an AEUG wank where it's one of the few series the Federation is in and loses.

And if you just look at battles alone, you might as well hang up the towel since the battle over them being a feddiewank is already settled.

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>>15401705
>MS IGLOO doesn't exist in your timeline of events.
They even were shown to have Oggos on the Dried Fish.

Granted, this wasn't so much a newtype corp as the Feddies deploying ZERG RUSH KEKEKEKEKEKEKEKE, which was already established in previous series.

>>15401616
The problem is that UC Gundam wants to show that Zeon has a equal amount of fair points but because Zeon is the bad guys they get the worse crimes (Colony Drops). Zeon has of course a lot of people with fair points but eventually you're going to have to admit that Zeon as a whole did a lot more bad stuff than the Feddies. To try to "fix" the balance writers try to humanize Zeon a lot more to "correct the balance" of Feddies and Zekes to try and make it more of a war drama to show empathy for both sides more than just copping out with "The Soldiers are good people but Zeon is still evil"

>>15403012
How could any of it be interpreted as Fedwank, GMs blow up like Leos without getting more than 2 frames of animation; them standing still firing and them blowing up. What because the protagonist is a Fed its automatically Fed positive, thats absolutely retarded. Every Fed main character has doubted and questioned the Federation, you ever seen one go "FOR THE GLORY OF THE FEDERATION" then steamroll 6 Gelgoogs that don't even move before they explode?

Like Torrington where the GM III that shot at the Efreet its literally just standing there, no movement until Kirks snipes it. How about those Nemos literally just standing around waiting to be destroyed by equally nameless Doms and a Desert Zaku. Its just shit to make Zeon look good and the Federation to look like shit, they're fucking standing still waiting for the glorious, righteous Zeon warriors to destroy them there's no excuse.

Federation is pretty competent in 08th MS Team IIRC. Sure Shirou is a bit dumb at times but the Federation is still clearly shown as winning the war and unnamed GM pilots help take down a Zeon superweapon.

>>15403141
If you want GMwank, play MSGO. Fucking GM low cost beam spam shit.

>>15403142
Those sniper units were op as hell

>>15401616
>what exactly is even wrong with glorifying and whitewashing literal, actual omnicidal Space Nazis?
gee I wonder

Nazi allegory villains getting a pass because muh imperial japan.
When it comes down to it, their ideology is already explored to death and watching them come back again and again smaller each time is just kind of pathetic.

>>15403172
You are saying it like the nazis did something wrong.

Zeon were just the hand of a corrupt family of mobsters, being feed idealistic shit some dead guy came up with. They really don't have a reason to exist past the Zabis. I get there were some stragglers that genuinely believed the bullshit they were being fed, but how many times can you keep 'exploring' that same shit?

>>15402414
>>15403150
>play a game to get a less bias presentation of animated material
That's some retarded logic

>>15403208
you obviously have some GM fantasy that needs to be fulfilled. your ailment has progressed beyond what the source material is able to provide

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>>15403141
You are forgetting the part when ECOAS and Londo Bell show up in Torrington and destroy the Zeeks like nothing
also pic related
I think its just a matter of story telling
There wouldn't be any real tension in the story if the conflict looked evenly match all the time, you gotta always give the antagonist the upper hand so it feels satisfactory when the heroes kick their asses

>>15402938
>original TV show and manga
>manga
I get it now. So you read the Origin manga and think that Zeon was originally portrayed as a bunch of sociopaths from top to bottom. Well, I'm sorry to say but (re)watch 0079 and you'll see that most Zeon soldiers are portrayed in a sympathetic light. You even say Dozle and Ramba Ral are unfortunate to swept up in Zeon and are good people, which shows how sympathetically they're shown in the original, when they, especially Dozle, are responsible for a host of warcrimes from earlier in the war. The actual show only makes out a few characters to be explicity bad guys: Gihren, M'Quve and Kycilia. Char is a dark gray, but he has his own agenda separate from the Zabis. Even Degwin is shown sympathetically, and he's the leader of Zeon! When all it takes for a show to be accused of Zeonwank is for them to show some Zeon soldiers sympathetically, I can't really take the term seriously when the original show does that.

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>>15402414
>ball
>shoddy

>>15403272
>show some Zeon soldiers sympathetically
Having them as victims of circumstance who got wrapped up in something too big is one thing. But then you got stuff like Unicorn trying its hardest to validate Zeon's very ideology.

>>15403319
Zeon ideology was already valid.

>>15403319

i wanted to punch Zinnerman so much. The show tries to portray him as a good guy when he is fighting for the side that has literally dropped three colonies and almost an asteroid on the Earth.

I like plenty of Zeon characters but they aren't "good." I can sympathize with ones like Marida who were raised in that environment but Zinnerman & co are basically Neo-Nazis

>>15401616
Was Delaz a handsome man?

>>15403359
If you mean Zeon Deikun. But it was the version of his ideology twisted to the needs of the Zabis that made the faction into what it was. That includes all the war crimes and hypocrisy that came with it. Unicorn tries to act like none of that is of any consequence.

>>15402938
>. Zeonwank as we call it is those such retcons that try to justify the zeeks' actions as something righteous and to be glorified for it.

Last time I checked, Ginias went batshit insane and killed all the scientists who worked on the Apsalus, Killing was going to nuke a colony just to destroy one Gundam, and Kuspen pulled out his gun and demanded the crew of the Jotunheim keep fighting even when it was apparent Zeon lost A Baoa Qu.

But hey. Zeon are apparently the good guys now even though they still keep losing.

>>15402976
See >>15403219's comment. Anybody who wants


>>15403141
>How could any of it be interpreted as Fedwank
Because the feddies still win? I'm pretty sure we've been over this.

>>15403208
So is throwing a tantrum when your side won, and all you can think about is that the nameless throwaway extras aren't the MVP. But then given how entitled you are, you would know all about being retarded, wouldn't you?

>>15403282
You would be the one crazy fanatic fed that would fly out in a Ball screaming "I AM INVINCIBLE!" before getting gunned down by zakus, while the other soldiers just look on and laugh because they weren't you.

>>15403400
He looks like someone's uncle

>>15403490
He looks like Stone Cold Steve Austin

>>15403556
Or Walter White, or like any bald person with a goatee

>>15403563
Joe Kucan should play Delaz in live action

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>>15401616
Here are my personal opinions.
1) It's completely one sided. Seldom is there a series that ever goes into how passionate people are about being in the Earth Federation. Rarely is there a scene where we see the Earth Federation run amok all over Zeon machines. Not that I'd want to see something like say, Heaven's Base happen in Gundam, but you know that whenever we're shown a Zeon vs EF machines that don't have the main character, we're going to show the EF as a skillless incompetents. Was there only ONE good pilot in all of Torrington? For fuck's sake.

2) There's sympathy and then there's revisionist history: The big thing that made MSG notable is that it was willing to humanize the antagonists of the series. They're not soulless machines willing to die for the glory of Zeon no matter what they did. But one thing that MSG did note upon is that if you were playing ball for Zeon, you were playing ball for the badguys. The entire reason Zeon exists is because they were being shits, and they're responsible for genocide.

Nowadays, there's a super secret sect of Zeon that manages to gather people under their flag and cry fury about how they're being oppressed, and despite that almost every sect of Zeon has thrown.
It's gotten to the point where we have to keep inventing events where the Feddies turn out to be terrible pricks having them killing. Of course, these events only big enough for the newest sect of Zeon to find something to be angry about.

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>>15403640
Is there a version of Zeon that hasn't tried to change the tides of the war with some huge super weapon, a colony drop, or by throwing some giant machine to destroy a city, and then having them croon on about how hurt and helpless they feel? After that shit they pulled with the Shamblo, who gives a fuck what's in the box, you've crossed the fucking line. It throws my suspension of disbelief out of the window that Zeon can keep pulling this shit, and there wouldn't be another version of the Titans showing up. How the hell do they keep managing to find people more and more willing to throw their lives away for Zeon again? Do they keep thinking "Mabye this time for sure!"


3) Untapped potential of the franchise: I really fucking hate how the series outright REFUSES to move on, because Zeon is absent from the scene, so we have to keep inventing more versions of Zeon so we can watch the same shit happen as last time. You know what would be great, and might possibly wean people into accepting latter UC? Maybe making F91 into a full series or something.

Nah, why do that when we can make another fucking Zaku, and remakes of other popular Zeon machines. I wonder if the new Gundam will have some psycoframe on it, so it can do magic as well? At this rate, I wouldn't be surprised if they damned F91, Crossbone and Victory Gundam to "Alternate UC" so they can keep the Zeon train going.

You know what made the end of CCA so great? Because at the end of the day, regardless of what side they were on, everyone in the area realized that maybe, JUST MAYBE, this whole independence thing isn't worth throwing a giant rock at Earth for, because it will make a bunch of people who believe in the FREEDOM OF SPACENOIDS feel good.

Nah. Even after all that, there's till enough anger in the tank to pick up those guns and have another go at the whole Zeon thing.

>>15401616
They and their grunt MS get all the cool units.

When are GMs going to get their day? They're always fodder even though they're capable of great things. The closest we got was 0081's opening and it was great... But way too short.

>>15403012
There's a difference from "Zeonwank" and "the protagonists of the series end up

By this standard, if I wrote a story about a Super Secret, Super Skilled Zeon Platoon, that actually has a pilot said to be as good as Amuro Ray, a bunch of experimental mobile suits, and they go on to destroy the Super Secret Mobile Armor from the EF that was going to go gas some colonies, commanded by some bigot.

....that because they're on the losing side of the war, it's still a Feddiewank story.

>>15403388
>>15403319
You don't know how annoying it was that Banana kept conveniently drifting between being in the custody of the EF and Zeon.

>>15403640
>>15403669
A lot of people often refer to Zeon as the Space Nazis, but I think they are more like Space Comunists
No matter how many times your ideology has failed you'll still try to enforce it one more time by just becasue you are feeling lucky this time and you changed one or two small details

>>15403669
Mono eyes sell kits, that's it.
I don't see why they don't just have another faction use those style of suits though. I mean, Zeta did it.

>>15403708
Can't achieve UNDERSTANDING if you don't hear both sides of the argument

>>15403710
They weren't even pushing their ideology in the later uprisings

0083 was just a revenge plot based around declaring that the war wasn't over and attempting one last "fuck you"

zeta and ZZ was about returning to the earthsphere and trying to take it over again, if they really wanted spacenoid independence then they should have promoted themselves as a free nation independent of the federation rather than invade the earth again

CCA still wasn't about spacenoid freedom, char just wanted another duel with amuro and part of the deal was threatening to fuck up earth under the pretext of turning everyone into newtypes by kickstarting an age of "everyone's a spacenoid"

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>>15401616
Butthurt earthnoids don't like proof that Zeon was right. Just like liberals going all "muh Mexicans" and "muh Muslims" and "muh girl penis" whenever based Trump does something that they don't agree with, Feddie scum throw tantrums whenever Zeon is portrayed in an accurately positive manner.

>>15403724
Zeta/ZZ - Zabi restoration
CCA - just a blitzkrieg attempt

>>15401625
Feds are more or less the good guys. The Gundams are your Feddie-wank.

If you're talking about why GMs tend to bite it onscreen, it's to make the bad guys look threatening and cool.

Nothing more complex or deeper than that. Just generic Sci-fi tropes.

>>15401797
>Alll of these times we don't see cool Federation action while Zeon suits get the spotlight a ton of the time.
see
>>15403869

>>15401643
>watching AU

>>15403708
It pissed me off in the final episode when Banana was going around sparing a bunch of Zeon terrorists who are so bad that even Angelo considers them nothing more than bloodthirsty warmongers.

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>>15403724
Zeon's wars were never about Spacenoid independence. The feds left Side 3 alone for 20 fucking years before the Zeeks kickstarted the One Year War by gassing other Spacenoids.

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>>15403889

Spacenoids? All I see are uncle-tom feddie boot lickers. Good riddance. Zeon did nothing wrong.

>>15403889
every time I read that screencap, I cringe. It's like the person that typed it got all their info from the wiki and just structured a poorly thought out series of events out of that.

>gassing other Spacenoids.
They started it by blowing/shooting them up. The gassing came very slightly later, and only once. Shit, the Titans actually gassed more colonies than Zeon did.

For fuck sake, stop reading the wiki and learn the fucking lore.

>>15403908
>They started it by blowing/shooting them up. The gassing came very slightly later, and only once.
Yeah, the whole point of the gas was to keep the colony intact for Operation Britsh. The rest of the colonies were either bombarded or nuked (usually the former, since Zeon had a limited stockpile of nuclear weapons.)

>>15403913

What? Should the Zeon have sent one of their own plummeting into the Earth? It was a far superior solution gassing the traitors.

>>15403908
>>15403913
>G3 Gas, also known as "GG Gas" or "G3 Poison Gas" is a potent, fast-acting, and lethal Chemical Weapon developed by the Principality Of Zeon and used during the One Week Battle up until The Antarctic Treaty and was one of the leading causes of civilian fatalities during the One Year War.
Unless billions of colonists just happened to be crammed into the two (they attempted more than one colony drop, remember) colonies used for British and at Loum, the 'w-we only gassed the colonies used for the drops!' excuse doesn't pan out.

Shiro survived a gas attack and wasn't blown up nor sent head-first into Australia, so the animated shit contradicts your headcanon. Unless you have sources for your 'lore', which I doubt.

And even if they 'merely' used nukes and ship weapons to pre-emptively blow up almost what, a third of humanity? How in the world is that the slightest bit less monstrous?

>>15403914
You can't betray a nation you're not a citizen of in the first place.

>>15403921

They betrayed the spacinoid peoples by being feddies. There is nothing worse than being a dam feddie.

Also feddie suits look lame. The federation was just jealous of Zeon's cool purple uniforms.

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>>15403272
>the Origin manga

Stopped reading there since you are clearly an idiot who somehow came to the conclusion that the The Origin manga = original manga from the '80s.

>>15401616
It's a boring and creatively bankrupt expression of Japanese national butthurt from WWII in cartoon form.

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>>15403714

Despite having superior aesthetics, Titan MS don't pull the number Zeon models do. That and there's like a million Zaku variants.

>>15401627
>Ex-Titan pilot
>Titan MS
>Doing what he was trained to do
that's some Titanwank

>>15404218
>Having the first 7 volumes
>Viz drops this faster than Operation British
This manga took some interesting liberties with retelling MSG.

>>15404283
>This manga took some interesting liberties
It's why manga and other fluff is not considered canon.

>>15404283
yeah it was a nice mashup of the tv and the movies

>>15401627
ZZ era unit crushing early OYW units does not constitute wank.

>>15404343
Especially after those same OYW units have already crushed Z/ZZ era shit themselves.

>>15402467
>Gundam wins your wars

Gundam don't win wars by themselves, they were merely a distraction a psychological warfare where enemy will put its utmost resource to crush the Gundams while the Federation are mobilizing in the billions, military industrial complexes spewing out raw materials for the endless war machine which when the time comes the Fed strike.

OR

They could've have just wait and let the enemies crumbled from within.

>>15403908
>The gassing came very slightly later,
>Slightly later
>The very first week of the war alone half of the human population gone from G3 Gas, Nuclear attack on the colonies and Sydney.
>Zeon dindu nothing wrong

>>15403640
>how passionate people are about being in the Earth Federation
they're called the Titans. Passionate People=/=Good People. Those are always who the self-righteos fanatics come from.
>Was there only ONE good pilot in all of Torrington
I'm pretty sure they specifically say that Torrington was considered low strategic value and wasn't even properly equipped, so its not unlikely that they didn't send any good pilots there until Ra Cailum shows up to combat the Remnant attack
>responsible for genocide
Mass murder yes, Genocide, I don't think so
>super secret sect of Zeon that manages to gather people under their flag and cry fury about how they're being oppressed
Well Spacenoids still are oppressed. With them being the majority of the population and Zeon Remnants dispersed in hiding across the entire Earth Sphere its not hard to recruit the more disgruntled ones. Wouldn't be a problem if the Feds just gave Spacenoids proper political and economic equality as Earthnoids.
>>15403669
>Is there a version of Zeon that hasn't tried to change the tides of the war with some huge super weapon, a colony drop, or by throwing some giant machine to destroy a city, and then having them croon on about how hurt and helpless they feel?
Zeon develops Super Weapons, drops colonies, etc. because they don't have comparable resources compared to the Federation, and they typically try to knock them out as soon as possible before the Feds Zerg Rush them
>I really fucking hate how the series outright REFUSES to move on
People like their Zeon suits, what can you say. They're the first villain faction from the original series, so it sells.
>You know what would be great, and might possibly wean people into accepting latter UC? >damned F91, Crossbone and Victory Gundam to "Alternate UC" so they can keep the Zeon train going.
They're going to start transitioning with Twilight Axis, so calm down already

>>15403908
>>15403919
I thought the Federation was the first to start throwing nukes, at the Battle of Loum

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>>15404218
this is the one from the 90's, the original is the one from 79

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>all these idiots fighting against each other
>not realizing that both sides are shit

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>>15404824
stop being autists

>>15404815
scans plox

>>15401616
It's boring.

>>15403897
Go back to being dead, Gihren

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>>15403141
Well for starters, if you're wondering why you never see a random Federation go 'FOR THE GLORY OF THE FEDERATION'. That's because the Federation is the corrupt, incompetent, and most importantly, is still status quo. You aren't going to see nationalistic pride in that sort of system as opposed to one that promises to make things better. Look at the 2016 presidential election And ignore the fact that one party colluded with a belligerent to undermine the election via cyber warfare. You had party's candidate that clearly represented the status quo, sure things feel like shit, but you don't have to worry about the economy collapsing or the country being plunged into another major war on a whim. The other candidate went 'Everything sucks, we need to make this country great again.' And SURPRISE, the latter party's candidate got all the zeal from the people.

Furthermore if you're going to cherry pick a scene from Unicorn where it could be explained why the Federation soldiers acted the way they did. Let's look at all the time Zeon forces got curb stomped in various series. It was a daily occurrence in 0083 where the main characters for the Feds walked away without a scratch over a pile of Zeon bodies. Hell the only fed to die was because of a plot device, that's how much plot armor they packed. Plus with Unicorn, in the battle you decide to cite has a single mobile suit turn into a one man army solo and the Zeon forces who suddenly forget how to aim or coordinate attacks, 08th MS team had scenes like the invinciball and them all surviving against Packard. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Nice job proving every show is a giant feddiewank blanco nino.

>>15406317

Zeon is incompetent as fuck. They got lucky with the fact that Dr. Minovsky chose to work for them. That's really the only reason why they amounted to anything. When the Federation got MS of their own, Zeon's incompetency was exposed. Hell their leaders were busy murdering each other off or trusting a guy who actually wanted to murder all of them.

Don't get me wrong the Federation is really incompetent. The fact that they sit on their asses so much and allow various Zeon remnant and neo-Zeon forces to form is proof of that.

However, Zeon is the epitome of incompetency. Sure they have a bunch of losers who will suck their dicks, but they are still losers. We see that with idiots in the South who dream about the Confederate States rising again: their passion doesn't change the fact that the CSA had its ass handed to it in the Civil War. Same with Neo-Nazis, Japanese Imperialists, et cetera. Lost causism is stupendously prevalent.

Hell I'd say that the Zeon-inspired factions that come after Zeon are generally way more competent than Zeon itself. Haman is certainly way more competent than anyone with the name "Zabi."

Zeon is just more romantic, charismatic and ultimately more appealing than the federation.

>>15406317
>you never see a random Federation go 'FOR THE GLORY OF THE FEDERATION'.

They actually do have a "For the Federation" line. I believe it was spoken in both 08th MST and 0083.

>>15407702
Yeah but the point is the organization itself is not one that is meant to inspire zeal. Same reason there's no blue helmets IRL going "FOR THE GLORY OF THE UNITED NATIONS!" For most of these people it's just a job, working for whoever happens to be in charge and seems kinda reasonable.

For Zeon it's a MOVEMENT, a rebellion of sorts, and that's going to have a way different psychological background. And remember that Zeon is ultimately being seen through a modern Japanese lens. There is a pervasive concept in storytelling of a samurai being both a noble and tragic figure; noble in their unwavering loyalty and passion, tragic because they are basically slaves to their lord and whatever ill designs they have.

Don't respond to BK post
Hide BK post
That guy is a literal retard

>>15401616

Its taking an objectively evil faction that routinely commits acts of terrorism and mass murder, often even against their own people, and tries to retroactively whitewash their sins and justify them somehow all because nationalist otaku get an honor boner from them since Zeon reminds them of glorious imperial japan that did nothing wrong.

>>15407914
>That guy is a literal Nazi
ftfy

>>15401724
Gundam Head Jims are so cool

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>>15402212
>NO SERIOUSLY GUYS TRUE DEIKUNISM HAS NEVER BEEN TRIED

>>15408145
It really hasn't.

>>15407961
The point of Gundam is that both sides are evil.

>>15408375

The Feddies are not anywhere near as bad, though. We keep being TOLD by spacenoids that Earth is full of decadent rich folks that oppress them, but by and large most scenes on Earth are fucking wastelands and ruined cities, while the colonies that people live onin space are fucking Gardens.

The feddies... what? Used nukes to defend themselves in the war that Zeon started? Didnt just give colonies they spent trillions of dollars building away for free?

If the ESF was half as evil as zeon says it is, there wouldnt BE a Zeon by the time of CCA. Because an actually evil empire would have gone in and genocided the fuck out of the spacenoids after all the shit they pulled. Zeon is only allowed to continue to exist bevause the ESF isnt evil enough to put them down for good.

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Man I can't wait to start painting again. Goddamn the Vidar is pure sex

>>15408406
Feddies decided not to give a damn about ceasefire at A Bao A Qu, for example

>>15408469
It's only a warcrime if you lose.

>>15408469
>Feddies decided not to give a damn about ceasefire at A Bao A Qu
>the battle where the federation couldn't afford to pull any punches
>where both sides were throwing everything they had left at eachother
>the battle where neither side even considered a ceasefire
Yeah, that's totally comparable to dropping colonies and starting a war that wiped out half of humanity

>>15408496
You asked about war crimes, I named one. If we dig deeper, we might find some more.

>>15408508
I'm not the anon you were initially replying to. I doubt that there is any military, real or fictional that hasn't committed a warcrime of any sort. However you said the Federation ignored a ceasefire at A Bao A Qu when there was no ceasefire to ignore.
Degwin attempted to organize one but he and Revil were both disintegrated by Gihren before anything could come of that. Unless there was a scene about it added in the movie I don't see where you're getting this from.

>>15408525
>However you said the Federation ignored a ceasefire at A Bao A Qu when there was no ceasefire to ignore.
IGLOO Apocalypse, ep 3

>>15403710
>Almost like the key problem causing the need to turn to extremist ideology is never fixed and thus the problem repeats ad nauseum

>>15402414
>recommending Crossfire to anybody for any reason
You sick, vindictive fuck!

>>15401616
Nothing as long as it's done right. See Zeta.

>>15407546
>mum incompetence
Considering Zeon's resources and luck of the draw they had, along with being the only military faction to challenge the Federation during their height of power and come close to victory, I'd argue the opposite.

The Federation had similar backstabbing and undermining from within, the difference is the Federation could handle such actions because of how bloated it was.

And even on Zeon's side, the real crippling backstabbing was Kycilla assassinating Girhen during the battle of A Baoa Qu, which in the main timeline, the battle was favoring Zeon and in Origin, they would have outright won the battle if Kycilla didn't decide to do her power play and incite a civil war between her faction and Girhens. Same thing with the Delaz fleet, if Cima didn't betray Delaz, the operation wouldn't have resulted in the near destruction of all his forces and they would have retreated to Axis, and might have changed how the politics there played out. And you got the TV timeline with Double Zeta where Haman basically wins but then has half he forces revolt against her ending with both sides destroying each other. Hell even the big 'zeonwank' series has the Sleeves start to suffer from infighting. I'm surprised they didn't have a scene of the Zeon remanents at Torrington starting to bicker and fight each other when the Bytannt appears with since it seems like Infighting and 'zeonwank' go hand and hand.

It seems less of a treachery problem and more of a issue with a deus ex machina to keep Zeon from winning.

>>15407914
Yes, run. Run like the coward you are because you you know you can't find any faults in my arguments.

>>15404530
>Zeon develops Super Weapons, drops colonies, etc. because they don't have comparable resources compared to the Federation, and they typically try to knock them out as soon as possible before the Feds Zerg Rush them
Oh, I guess that makes it okay, then.

>>15408884

We find faults in your arguments all the time, you closet fascist.

Really, instead of wondering why people 'can't find fault' in your zealous rambling, shouldn't you be wondering what you're doing here? You're a militant Clawshrimpy. Every time you show your face it ends in the exact same way.

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>>15407702
You'll have to show me the source, the only person I could see doing that was Wyatt. And that was more because he was proud of space fleet he commanded before he got nuked by Gato.

I'm still looking for any Feddie that goes 'For the Federation' or something similar right before they die.

>>15408906
No, you just think you do, you then claim victory and go home. We've been at this for years, and even with the gift of 20-20 hindsight, you have yet to present an idea of how Zeon could efficiently wage war like they did in the One Week Battle, or prove that ZZ is canon. Instead projecting onto me, perhaps you should ask yourself why you are continuing this futile battle which is fueled solely by your petty spite for me?

>>15408923

>Really, instead of wondering why people 'can't find fault' in your zealous rambling, shouldn't you be wondering what you're doing here? You're a militant Clawshrimpy. Every time you show your face it ends in the exact same way.

I know it must be hard to go one moment without exalting the glory of Zeon, but can you try and actually answer my question, please?

>>15408884
Yo, BK, I've seen your posts before, but I've never seen a refutation to the arguments against Zeon having the moral high ground, posted in the copypasta here.
>>15403889

How do you respond to Zeon specifically
• Having gassed spacenoids
• Having conducted multiple colony drops
• Having actual or planned violations of the Antarctic Treaty

I'm an anime-only fan, and I'm curious as to what refutations you have to those posts using content from the anime. Further, I'd like to hear your account of what made the OWY a just war on the part of Zeon.

>>15408929
Don't waste your time with him.

>>15408932

>Preemptive strikes regardless of horrendous civilian casualties because the Feds had garrisons and by not supporting Zeon the other colonies were apparently tacitly supporting the Federation
>Justified because they tried to end the war in one fell sweep regardless of the irreparable damage done to Earth and the Federation are at least halfway responsible for the first colony hitting Sydney somehow
>Justified because the Feds are oppressive monsters

I saved you the trouble of talking to him.

>>15408884

so basically they would have won if they weren't incompetent. i don't know how that is supposed to prove that they aren't incompetent. also it is clear in the anime (which is more canon than the origin) that Zeon probably would have lot A Baoa Qu anyways even if Kycilia didn't kill Gihren. At the worst it would have been an inconclusive battle that would have still cost Zeon dearly, and Zeon unlike the Federation can not easily replace their losses since by this point in time they had been driven from the Earth.

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>>15408929
Because only a fool would bite at a loaded question bait. Nice try though.

>>15408932
Someone who is pleasant, granted that bar has grown relatively low the past decade. But I'll take it. I'm going to take you at face value that you're curious and not just going to ignore this all and go 'He's a nazi like everyone else says because he's willing to defend Zeon!" Sound far? I am jotting this all down fast, because proof reading is for suckers.

In terms of the One Year War.
>having gassed spacenoids
If you are referring to the destruction of Side 1, 2 and 4 during the One Week Battle. it was necessary since every Side except for Side 6 was still openly supporting the Federation. So if war broke out and they were not neutralized, the Federation would not only be able to mobilize the populations and resources. (Billions of more soldiers along with converting all their local industries to assist the Federation's war effort.) But also they could use the allied Sides as rally points to organize attacks on Zeon bases or Side 3 itself. Now, it was argued in the past that all Zeon needed to do was just destroying the Federation garrisons in the colonies and occupy them. First off, that's a logistical nightmare that Zeon would not have the resources to do while fighting its war for independence against the Federation. Each colony has more or less a population of 20 million people. (I could be wrong, I need to look it up again.) So you have to set up an occupational goverment, your own garrisons to keep the peace and the logistics of keeping everything supplied. And that's not just a single colony, but an entire Side, and not just one side. but three of them. And that's not even getting into the big problem with setting up an occupational force, people don't like to be occupied even if the force claims they're there to free them.

>>15408496
>ceasefire at A Bao A Qu
>ceasefire after the EF high command and their senior fleet wiped out by a super weapon

It can be comparable to how US drop a fucking nuke at Japan. EF need to end the war and A Bao Qu was the key to it. Wouldn't you have done it if it means it will stop the war that have killed almost all of humanities.

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F91 actually puts this into practice because the Federation was corrupt as hell, using children as shields, basically told the Frontier colony 'you're on your own' while the Crossbone Vanguard repetitively said they weren't there to harm them and to liberate them. What happens? People still set up resistance cells against the vanguard. And this was only a single colony, Imagine trying to govern an entire Side, let alone multiple sides. So you run risk of a rebellion wasting more resources and lives to quell it at best, and at worst, you lose control of the colony where you either have to destroy it or risk it falling back in the Federation's hands. The other suggestion of how Zeon could have kept the colonies intact would be to destroy the docking bays and space ports of each colony to effectively seal them in. Which would be effectively condemning them to starve to death because they wouldn't be able to access their agricultural pods. Or fails to take into account that there are countless amounts of other maintenance doors and airlocks people can go through (The latter would take a lot more coordination, but is possible.) So

Also how many colonies Zeon gassed is in question as well. With what we see that's animated, we can only confirm a single colony was actually gassed. That would have been Island Iffish which was used for Operation British. (This also means this was the operation Cima was in command of and Shiro was stationed at the colony and was able to evacuate before it was dropped.) This goes in line with what is the most efficient way of dealing the enemy sides. It wouldn't make sense to first destroy, the Federation garrisons, gas the colonies and then blow them up to make them uninhabitable. It would be much easier and efficient just to destroy a colony with a mega particle broadside, thus robbing the Federation of soldiers, resources and bases for their war effort.

>Conducting multiple colony drops
There was only one colony drop attempted during the One Year War, and the reason it was done was because it was was the most potential weapon that Zeon could deploy against the Federation. Kinetic weaponry is not anything new and is one of the ways countries (in the real world) with space programs can try to get around the Outer Space Treaty if they wanted to send weapons into space that are redirect at earth because NBCs are forbidden. Now if you're asking why a colony, it's extremely simple. Zeon didn't know of Jaburo's exact location along with how deep it was within the bedrock. So even if Zeon took control of the airspace above Jaburo and deployed nuclear weapons, there would be no guarantee it would be destroyed. Now a colony has a lot more 'umf' than a nuke and would get Jaburo even if it was somewhat off target because of how large the blast radius would be. So you have the means to destroy the Federation's GHQ and do so with minimal risk to your own forces, are you telling me you wouldn't take that opportunity? Yes the Federation was able to redirect and cause the colony to break up during reentry causes the largest piece to wipe out the land of shitposters. But the drop had the benefit of destroying a majority of the Federation's navel fleet and bases.

As for the Battle of Loum the alleged 2nd attempt at a colony drop. The canon timeline states that the colony drop operation was false intel in order to drive the Federation fleets that were hiding at Luna II into a decisive battle. At no point did Zeon even approach Side 5, which shows it was the Federation's action in their retreat that caused Side 5's destruction since their flight path to the battle took them through the colony cluster, meaning they would take the same path to retreat, or worse, attempt to the use the colonies as shields.

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Either way, it wasn't in Zeon's plan to outright attack Loum since it wasn't involved in their initial blitzkrieg and if their objective was to wipe out all the colonies once they routed the Federation forces, there is no reason Texas would still be intact.

Also remember, Zeon couldn't have gone all out like the Space Revolutionary Army, took control of all the colonies from Side 1, 2 and 4, and fling them all at Earth to bomb it back to the stone age. Zeon didn't do that.

>Having actual or planned violations of the Antarctic Treaty
There's only two example I believe you are pointing to. (Correct me if I'm wrong and you have another example of Zeon violating the Antarctic Treaty during the One Year War.) The first one is M'Quve launching a nuclear missile against the Federation forces at Odessa. Which wouldn't be canon since it happened only in the TV version and not the movies. And Killing's operation to use nuclear weapons on Side 6. A lot of people see this as a violation, but Killing rightfully observes that not only did Side 6 not sign onto the Antarctic Treaty, meaning they would not be granted the protections of it. But more importantly but secretly housing and supporting Federation weaponry, they nullified their own neutrality status. Which would also mean they forfeit the protection of the Antarctic Treaty. So Killing was in his right to send a task force to nuke Side 6 in order to keep them from supporting the Federation.


This only gets stronger as time goes on. Seeing as the only counter argument these days is 'mum morality'

Enjoy this picture of Zeon's ace pilot, Char Aznable

>>15409673
It still doesn't change the fact they actively and maliciously butchered anyone who didnt join them regardless of who they were all the while harping on about Spacenoid rights while Zeons leaders lived like kings and the common spacenoid got the scraps.

The second Zeon Zum Deikun kicked the bucket his nation became a entity that gave not one single fuck about spacenoids beyond propaganda and instead focused on enriching and expanding the powerbase of it's elites at the cost of everyone else.

>>15409724
Now you're using loaded terms to insert your clear bias 'maliciously butchered', along with hypotheticals that can't be proven.

>>15408643
Fuck off Benny

>>15401790
The most reasonable estimates I have seen are the pre OYW Humanity had a population of at least 20 billion but probably more.

>>15410570
Where have you seen those? Given that most of humanity is supposed to live in space, that mean there must be tens of thousands of colony cylinders.

>>15409666
>Because only a fool would bite at a loaded question bait. Nice try though.

Okay, since you've probably calmed down by now I'll ask you again. It's a very simple question with an equally simple answer, I'm sure.

Why are you here, when every time you show yourself the same situation pans out no matter what?

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>>15410173
Ring a ding baby.

>>15409666
>>15409670
>>15409673
Thanks for the very thought out posts, BK. I'll have more in-depth replies tomorrow since it's 3 AM in my native Texas colony . You argue pretty convincingly with the main theme of Zeon's approach being pragmatic, and you deserve more respect from folks around here for that. Kudos to you for keeping up the good fight for Spacenoids in such a hostile work environment.

From a persuasion standpoint, the most confusion points you raise are about what constitutes canon and by extension what specific sources you're citing. This isn't to say I disagree with you - nor should you see this post as me attacking your interpretation of what counts as canon - as much as it is to say, the establishment of what elements of Gundam material you're evaluating in your judgement of Zeon early on would go a long way to getting shitposters of your back.

Good stuff man. Seig Zeon.

>>15401616
The whole concept is distorted by some of the more retarded posters here.

At best Zeonwank is the prevalance of Zeon grunts doing cooler shit than Feddie grunts. That's literally all it is. It pisses people off because they wanna see more GMs killing things, but instead shows need to follow a dramatic storytelling formula where [Elite Zeon grunt kills Shitty Feddie grunt(s), Elite Zeon grunt dies to Gundam].

For some reason people take it a step further and try to act like there are shows where Zeon are "the good guys" and HOW DARE you forget that they are space nazis etc. When really these shows typically just have characters that are sympathetic/human because much like the Wehrmacht, plenty of Zeon's forces are just normal people and not overtly involved in all the heinous warcriming and whatnot.

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>>15403919
>stop reading the wiki and learn the fucking lore.
>immediately quotes the wiki.

>Unless you have sources for your 'lore', which I doubt.
Gundam Century, the one written by the show's actual staff and the only one that actually matters. Gundam Century was the source that discarded Tomino's haphazard original setting notes and organized the OYW backstory into what we know now (or not know, if this board is any indication, since everybody here gets their shit from the Awakening, Escalation, Confrontation novels, in which Zeon DOES gas many colonies, Entertainment Bible's clusterfuck of weird claims, or the wiki, which gets most of it's OYW info from EB to begin with)

Funny thing is, Gundam Century doesn't even bother mentioning gas, but it does mention that Zeon -destroyed- the colonies themselves, not merely gassed the populations. In fact, 08th MS Team is the very first time a gassing is even shown in the OYW. All other instances were of colony destruction were just straight up annililation of the cylinder itself.

>Shiro survived a gas attack and wasn't blown up nor sent head-first into Australia, so the animated shit contradicts your headcanon. Unless you have sources for your 'lore', which I doubt.

Actually, the Director of 08th MS Team directed a spinoff manga that revealed that the colony he was in was A. His home colony and B. the colony that was dropped.

So...yeah, considering the director of the series wrote it, I'm pretty sure the claim holds some weight.

Also, the source that first claimed that Zeon gassed multiple colonies was actually something from Tomino's original setting notes, which also claimed that multiple colonies were dropped.

tl;dr There aren't actually any real sources that claim Zeon gassed multiple colonies aside from Entertainment Bible, but Entertainment bible. Even Zeta claims that the use of G-3 was banned specifically because of the colony drop.

>>15410766

It's less wanting to portray Zeon as the 'good guys' and subtly giving them inexplicably increased justification for what they do.

The utterly baffling changes to The Origin are the best indicators of this so far.

>>15403919
>And even if they 'merely' used nukes and ship weapons to pre-emptively blow up almost what, a third of humanity? How in the world is that the slightest bit less monstrous?

I've been trying to make this point for years now. My issue is that Zeon did FAR more than gas a population; they straight up destroyed the very containers keeping them alive, undoing decades of construction and progress in addition to killing a lot of people that had no stake in the conflict.

Yet the only thing retards here bring up is the fucking gassings, all of which but one never even happened because Zeon was too busy blowing every other colony up wholesale to bother pumping gas into them.

Your issue is that you think you seem to think I'm defending Zeon.

>>15410847
If you read the manga, you'd know that the changes to The Origin actually play up the devious villainy of both sides.

>>15410839
>but Entertainment bible is a mess of lore that gets contradicted quite often by animated material and Sunrise barely pays attention to it for much. It had far more influence on Gihren's Greed, though.

>>15410854

I've read the manga, and so far the changes only seem to demonise the Feds to a ludicrous extent and given Zeon even more of a reason to rebel, quite frankly.

>>15408508
>>15408496
You named a rather small instance. The Feds didn't keep attacking after the ceasefire was announced; those GM pilots that just watched their friends butchered by a monster of a mobile armor did.

If anything, it'd be weirder if they DID listen to the ceasefire.

>>15410860
Not him but the OVA does play up the Zabi's evilness, especially Degwin

The feds in origin really aren't doing anything but responding to armed revolt, which is what an occupying force usually does in the case of an armed revolt.

>>15410883

Except almost to a man they're portrayed as either lily-livered cowards, complacent idlers or abrasive thugs, and the very reason for Zeon resorting to revolt was changed to be the fault of a fatally stupid Salamis captain.

>>15410839
>>15410848
This.

The funny thing is, the most common source of the claim that Zeon used Nuclear, Biological, and Chemical weapons is actually a misinterpretation of the wording of the Antarctic treaty. The Treaty explicitly forbids the use of those kinds of weapons as well as direct attacks on colonies, which made people think that Zeon mostly destroyed colonies with NBC weapons. In actuality, the treaty was made that way to prevent the use of them on both sides, meaning Zeon was covering their own asses as well, since the Federation had plenty of resources to make oodles of various unconventional weapons that they could unleash on Side 3 with little effort, whereas Zeon expended most of their nukes in the opening days of the war, which is the only WMD that would be of any practical use since they didn't have the combat resources to perform another colony drop.

>>15410891
To be fair, Tomino started that characterization from Zeta onward. The only series where he doesn't portray the Fed government as corrupt cowards, morons, or occasionally even straight up evil is First Gundam and Victory. That isn't something the Origin OVA started.

I think the biggest problem is that westerners expect the Federation to act like other unified world governments in Science Fiction, which tend to be more proactive and altruistic, when half the point of Gundam is it's typically presents a more pessimistic view of common Science Fiction tropes. The Earth Federation acting like a gaggle of cunts more often than not is more a symptom of that pessimism than any political leanings of Tomino or the other directors/writers (though even aside from Fukui, I wouldn't doubt that a number of them are right-leaning.)

As for the Salamis crashing incident, I think people are really overthinking the reasons they changed the original; it was probably just done to save screentime, because the space rock incident would have taken up far more when they had more important shit to cover.

>>15408406
>most scenes on Earth are fucking wastelands and ruined cities
that's only in 0079, at which point its been the main battleground for months
>Used nukes to defend themselves in the war that Zeon started
Gassing and Colony drops are pretty bad, but escalating it into a nuclear war is probably what ended up killing so many people
>If the ESF was half as evil as zeon says it is, there wouldnt BE a Zeon by the time of CCA. Because an actually evil empire would have gone in and genocided the fuck out of the spacenoids after all the shit they pulled. Zeon is only allowed to continue to exist bevause the ESF isnt evil enough to put them down for good.
Spacenoids are most of the population, and the conflict is started mostly because the Earth doesn't give Spacenoids autonomy/representation/whatever whilst still using them as a tax base for their programs. Just killing all the spacenoids won't solve that, nor will the Federation ever be inclined to do so. And you have to be an idiot to think that such a system could ever just get rid of its resistance and forever be done with it. It actually creates its own enemies by how it functions. If the Feddies were smart they'd do what America does, infiltrate its domestic resistance with spies to subvert them from within and create controlled resistance everywhere so the discontented end up spending their time and energy with something ineffectual and easy to control. Too bad after the OYW, they were in such a mess that they probably couldn't do it as they'd been able to before.

>>15408923
>I'm still looking for any Feddie that goes 'For the Federation' or something similar right before they die.
Tem Ray before he falls down that flight of stairs

>>15411937
Even in 0079 and Victory, it was really the main cast who were the good guys, the Federation as a whole was still a mixed bag. Also Victory's cast was part of the League Militaire, not the Federation. They received support from the Feds, but were separate.

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>>15410751
I do appreciate you looking at the facts of the matter instead of resorting to fallacies to dismiss opposing viewpoints. It's regrettable, but inevitable with how society is these days. And you don't have to apologize or think you're slighting me by challenging what I'm writing, this argument has only become as ironclad as you see it after years of being tempered under biased aggression to the point the opposing side can only evoke morality as a counter point.

I can definitely see how what constitutes as canon would be confusing since I didn't include information on what is considered canon. So I'll work from there. (Apology in advance for the wall of text.)

One of the big issues of Gundam is that it's so vast and has a tendency to re-tread over not only past events, but series as a whole to the point you have multiple versions of the same event. It's inevitable that one series would need to take priority over the others in case future works decide to work off the events of a previous show.

This isn't something new either, it started with Tomino and the original Mobile Suit Gundam where he first made the TV series and then the movie trilogy which did change certain events even if the overall plot didn't change. But, it set a precedent that a film would take priority if you have multiple versions of the same series. The first time there was major contradiction between the TV and film version of a series was the retcon of Mwu La Flagga's death in Gundam SEED. The TV version clearly had him die because even if your mobile suit could take a giant beam cannon's shot, you're head is not going to survive the vacuum of space while you broken helmet is floating around. The film version removed the helmet from the screenshot shown and predictably Mwu returns in Gundam SEED Destiny.

As time went on, you had minor retcons to events (Such as GMs being deployed in Odessa when the original series made no mention of them.) Or filling in the gaps of events mentioned, but not explained in depth. This lead to the next major watershed for Gundam canon which was the creation of the Zeta Gundam movies, A New Translation. This was a major shake up because the ending of A New Translation was extremely different form the original series. Kamille doesn't suffer brain damage and a good number of AEUG units survive. Where in TV series, Kamille's brain goes ZOOM and everyone else dies. And the bigger event, Haman and her forces opt leave the Earth Sphere opting to return the asteroid belt and letting Mineva stay on Earth

This completely contradicts the events of ZZ Gundam where Kamille became not good in the metal department and Haman was preparing for global domination. HOWEVER, based on how Tomino set up A New Translation. IT DID NOT CONTRADICT ANYTHING in Char's Counter Attack which is considered the to be the final act of Early UC. People have gone over, Zeta Gundam (Both the TV and Movies) and Char's Counter Attack and there has yet to be a contradiction found. (And to their credit, they have gone after any point of attack they could including mobile suit deployments.) But the end result is still that a person can watch A New Translation and then goes into Char's Counter Attack without any plot holes from Zeta Gundam. It's rather uncanny that Tomino, intentionally or unintentionally tied up all the loose ends.

This of course leads to the question of what happens to Double Zeta and anything that directly references the series. The interesting thing there is every Tomino work that occurs later in the UC timeline doesn't make a single mention of Double Zeta (The sole exception is a mention of Haman's Zeon, but that's easily retconned to mean her activity in Zeta Gundam.) after that, nothing in CCA, F91 or Victory.

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This leads to compartmentalization where only series that reference ZZ would also be considered non canon. This includes Unicorn and perhaps Twilight Axis.


Of course it's still a point of contention because the infographs posted on /m/ today is filled with people who still consider ZZ to canon even though they have yet to find any contradictions between A New Translation and Char's Counter Attack. They go onto to cite a panel held in 2001 between various bandai and sunrise officials on what is considered official works based on all the various material that's anime, manga or in video games.

This was before Gundam SEED or a New Translation existed, but it seemed to inadvertently set the precedent about movies Since they said if it's film, it's canon. Now there will be quibbling over what a 'film' is, but if sample a group of people on what the word 'film' means to them, I do not believe the claim that the word 'movie' would come to mind is not a dubious one. Of course since translations between Japanese and English is never 100% there have been claims that it means anything broadcasted. I would only offer the previous information posted and ask how would you explain that?

Here's a link to the interview.
http://f16.aaacafe.ne.jp/~robo/library/ichigodaifuku/ichigodaifuku-1.htm

Of course, this naturally raises the question of what happens to series if it's not considered canon? Well, the most important thing to know is it isn't wiped out of existence and you need to ignore it. It's still considered 'official', meaning it's not the prime source, but it still exists. Think G-Savior. For all the shit it took, it still made a cameo in Build Fighter.

And while this is more on the conjecture side, a good way to sort out all the different shows is to shunt them in particular timelines. In this case you have the TV and movie timelines.

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All the OVAs can be put into either timeline Unless they contain something that is contradicting. And series like Origin and Thunderbolt are their own timelines. Manga and video games are still not considered canon. See pic related, it can't be used as evidence.


So how does this work into what I mention in the original post? In regards to the Antarctic Treaty violation, the scene of M'Quve launching an alleged nuclear missile only occurred in the TV series. This was cut from the movies.

As for The Battle of Loum. It's based off the only animated version of the battle, MS IGLOO. Origin did their own version, but it's a separate timeline, this is made clear by the weapons the Black Tri Stars and Char used during the battle.

In MS IGLOO it was clearly stated that the second colony drop operation was ruse to lure the Federation fleet that was stationed at the Federation's only remaining space fortress, Luna II, into a battle. Furthermore, the scene showed the Federation fleet approaching the battle field and moving through the Side 5's colony cluster. Which would infer the Federation's quickest point, to and from Luna II to the field of battle was through Side 5 itself. We already know how the battle played out, and how the Federation forces were routed, which begs the question of how did the Side 5 then get destroyed? I already stated it before that Side 5 was not a priority target for Zeon since they would have targeted during the early blitzkrieg if it was deemed a threat on the same level as Side 1, 2 and 4. And the theory that Zeon destroyed Side 5 after routing the Federation forces loses merit because the Texas colony remained intact. So this can only mean the battle shifted to Side 5 after the Battle of Loum turned against the Federation and Side 5 was destroyed in the cross fire as the Federation forces retreated because they chose to cut through Side 5 since ti was the fastest means to return to Luna II.

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Sieg Zeon

>>15401798
Exactly. The point of the show is that neither side has particularly high moral ground and that war atrocities are never not horrible events, regardless of reason or perceived necessity.

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Would you cheer for the Federation at a sporting event? Maybe for Divegrass.

>>15414125
Is this real?

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>>15414126
Maybe?

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>>15413708
>>15413716
>>15413722
>>15413732
You put far too much thought into this "timelines" bullshit you've concocted.

Outside of AU's with straight-up different settings entirely, Sunrise doesn't put much stock in the idea that UC works on a consistent set of rules, much less different timelines. The most effort they ever put into the concept is saying that some conflicting elements in the compilation movies are nust alternate interpretations of history. There has been no movement whatsoever to organize these conflicting versions into separate timelines.

And New Translation is canon to nothing but itself, much like Thunderbolt.

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>>15413716
>HOWEVER, based on how Tomino set up A New Translation. IT DID NOT CONTRADICT ANYTHING in Char's Counter Attack which is considered the to be the final act of Early UC.

ACTUALLY there is a rather important contradiction; Haman.

Before ZZ Gundam, Haman was not a well known player to anyone but Axis Zeon, but in Char's Speech to Sweetwater, he mentions specifically that the corrupt nature of the Federation gave birth to the Titans as well as enabled "Haman brazen actions." At the end of ANT, Haman Karn leaves the Earth Sphere entirely, hoping to wait things out until the Earth Sphere quiets down, so the events of ZZ, where the incompetence and cowardice of Federation government officials pretty much allow Haman to do as she pleases, never happens. Instead, in ANT, Haman actually affects very little in the Earth Sphere because she up and leaves after the Gryps Conflict, meaning her name should have very little meaning to the people of Sweetwater, if any, and it also brings up the question of where she is now? Char's Counterattack revolves around the idea of Char returning taking leadership over the forces of Neo Zeon after the power vacuum left behind by Haman's and Glemy's deaths. In ANT, Haman and Glemy are still alive, and there is no conflict between them that leaves Neo Zeon without leadership, or if the Neo Zeon civil war still happened, then it happened offscreen with little relation to the Federation, because Haman and the Neo Zeon forces left the Earth Sphere, meaning Char has no reason to mention her in his speech defying the Federation in the eyes of the people of Sweetwater.

In other words, the events of ZZ are mentioned in passing in Char's Counterattack. Subtley, but the fact that Char mentions Haman's actions in his anti-Federation speech means that the specific context brought by ZZ Gundam's story had to take place.

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>>15416014
>And New Translation is canon to nothing but itself, much like Thunderbolt.
By your own post, you're saying A New Translation is its own timeline along with Thunderbolt. Which by itself. means you just refuted your claim that timelines are 'bullshit'

Do you even look at what you write and see it through to its inevitable conclusion?
I didn't even bring up the fact that you have nothing support your hypotheticals or that that A New Translation is just a stand alone series.

>>15416245
>The Haman comment in CCA
This land has already been tilled, burned, and salted, but let's go over it again just because there is always someone new reading these threads.

"Haman brazen actions." is an extremely vague statement in of itself. More importantly, it doesn't make connections or references to any of the events of ZZ. As a result you could easily spin 'brazen actions' to mean the events of ZZ like was done in the post quoted. But at the same time, it can be said to have meant the 'brazen actions' of the events from A New Translation where Haman actions of just returning to the Earth Sphere with a military force intent on conflict. Which resulted in the Federation/Titans willing to cut a deal with one of the groups the Federation was tasked with destroying and Haman destroying A Baoa Qu. (Which was still under spacenoid control after the One Year War ended and was only recently given to the Titans by the Federation puppet government installed at Side 3.) Also, you shouldn't forget the Titans were never disavowed in A New Translation, so the Federation gave Haman the same seal of approval they did in ZZ by not condemning the Titans actions.

So even though Haman decided to retreat from the Earth Sphere, her 'brazen actions' already occurred because she shook up the Gryps conflict and revealed the extent of the Federation's corruption and political opportunism because it was willing to collaborate with Zeon forces.


Attempts were made, I respect that.

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>>15416702
And because I'm self aware, I'm giving this to myself for botching my use of cheeky spoilered comments.

>>15416702
>But at the same time, it can be said to have meant the 'brazen actions' of the events from A New Translation where Haman actions of just returning to the Earth Sphere with a military force intent on conflict. Which resulted in the Federation/Titans willing to cut a deal with one of the groups the Federation was tasked with destroying and Haman destroying A Baoa Qu.

This relies on the notion that Haman Karn is well known to anyone not directly involved with Axis or the Gryps Conflict. You have to remember, the Gryps Conflict wasn't like the OYW; the vast majority of the events were not public knowledge, and the fact that the Federation never publicly stopped supporting the Titans means that the conflict taking place was still largely kept from the news media. Haman committed no atrocities in this version of Zeta, nor was she seen as a villain to anyone aside from the AEUG and Titans themselves. Nobody in the ANT "timeline" as you seem to coin it has any reason to think of Haman as evil; fact of the matter is she barely did anything wrong to the spacenoids or the Federation directly. All she did was give the AEUG and Titans some major headaches. Nobody at Sweetwater has any reason to care about Haman's name.

"Haman's brazen actions" most definitely relies on her notoriety, and she got that notoriety for proclaiming Axis "Neo Zeon" (which is where the faction's name comes from, lets not forget) and sending forces down to earth and to various colonies, with success in occupying the former and acquiring Side 3 from the Federation government directly. A lot of this was made possible by the fact that the Federation military were weakened after the Gryps Conflict and had little to retaliate with, meaning it relies on the events of the Zeta TV series.

So basically, your claim is reliant on some alternate untold story about Haman's rise to notoriety that is far less likely to succeed given the Feds have time to rebuild and regroup after ANT.

>>15416821
He also says in the speech that "This history has made us all refugees" immediately after, meaning the First Neo Zeon War HAD to happen.

Haman's tenure as the leader of Neo Zeon definitely was a factor in the refugee crisis following the space wars of UC, if he has to mention her at Sweetwater. If ANT is canon, he only has to mention the Titans.

>>15413716

Just because Char's Counterattack doesn't contradict anything in A New Translation does not mean that A New Translation is the new canon. It doesn't matter whether it contradicts anything there or not, because whether something is contradicted or not is not the determining factor in what is and isn't canon. What Tomino and/or Banrise say is canon is canon. And they've never said zip on the matter. The only indication they've ever given is in data books which continue to list ZZ as part of UC, and the existence of Unicorn, which builds of ZZ. Which means it likely is canon, regardless of whether A New Translation would make just as much sense to Char's Counterattack or not.

>>15416821
>"Haman's brazen actions" most definitely relies on her notoriety, and she got that notoriety for proclaiming Axis "Neo Zeon" (which is where the faction's name comes from, lets not forget) and sending forces down to earth and to various colonies, with success in occupying the former and acquiring Side 3 from the Federation government directly.

You forgot the part where she, y'know, DROPS A FUCKING COLONY WHILE THE FEDERATION DID NOTHING, but yeah, Char's Counterattack definitely needs ZZ to happen in order to be possible.

>>15403219

Hey I made this gif many, many years ago

First, I'm surprised you didn't post your source material, so I'll help you out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ourB80IQEes

>>15416821
>>15416874
You are relying on hypotheticals and the assumption that everyone living in space are deaf to the events occurring outside of their own colonies except for a select few major conflicts that didn't involve the colonies and wouldn't know about Haman unless she personally started a Earth Sphere wide war.

Furthermore, you have to look at the speech and who it was addressing. This wasn't a declaration to the world, but to Sweetwater itself and how Haman's Brazen Actions would have affected the population. She weakened the colonies militarily by destroying A Baoa Qu and created a refuge crisis in Side 3 by returning all the civilians and soldiers there who didn't opt to retreat with her since they already evacuated Axis and it's not like the Federation would let them just reappropriate it.

Also, notice how Char calls out Haman as the false protector of the Zabi legacy. Which is odd since he already repudiated the Zabi family a few sentences before. Which would mean he talking about how Haman tried to use Mineva as a puppet for her own ambitions, and he confronted Haman over that AEUG's first negotiations with Axis. Plus, it's not like Char would never hold a grudge. This doesn't even go into the fact that the Federation and AEUG were already cutting deals to give Side 3 to Haman during the Gryps Conflict, the fact that this was happening without Side 3's consent would be enough to cause an uproar after their puppet government bent over backwards to support the Federation.


>>15416838
Char was either citing his father's work about the Federation kicking off all the people they felt were unworthy into space so they could keep Earth to themselves. Or in a literal sense from the conflicts of the One Year War and the Gryps Conflict.

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Before you bring up Core 3. You need to remember it was not a residential or industrial colony. But a mining one with a negligible population. (Small enough that Chara's forces alone were able to control the entire colony.) Plus the interior was almost all rock and grassland. With no major, or even minor population centers. So even if the population was evacuated, it would not by itself cause a refuge crisis for the Federation.

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>>15418195
>You are relying on hypotheticals and the assumption that everyone living in space are deaf to the events occurring outside of their own colonies except for a select few major conflicts
During the events of Zeta, they wouldn't know because the Federation and Titans covered up any details on the ongoing conflict. They wouldn't even have an idea of what was going on at that point until the Dakar speech, which never happens in the movies. The Federation never denounces the Titans, and unlike with the TV series, we have no reason to believe that the events of the Gryps conflict were declassified until far later than CCA

>Furthermore, you have to look at the speech and who it was addressing. This wasn't a declaration to the world, but to Sweetwater itself and how Haman's Brazen Actions would have affected the population.

Did affect. Past tense.
>She weakened the colonies militarily by destroying A Baoa Qu
Actually, by then it had already been commandeered by the Titans, and destroying it only denied the Titans a foothold in space outside of Gryps and Konpei, something the colonists wouls see her as a hero for.

Also, notice how Char calls out Haman as the false protector of the Zabi legacy. Which is odd since he already repudiated the Zabi family a few sentences before. Which would mean he talking about how Haman tried to use Mineva as a puppet for her own ambitions, and he confronted Haman over that AEUG's first negotiations with Axis. Plus, it's not like Char would never hold a grudge. This doesn't even go into the fact that the Federation and AEUG were already cutting deals to give Side 3 to Haman during the Gryps Conflict, the fact that this was happening without Side 3's consent would be enough to cause an uproar after their puppet government bent over backwards to support the Federation.

Literally NONE of this is public knowledge during the events of Zeta, and Side 3 ot only has no say, they have no idea any of it is happening.

>>15418195
>and created a refuge crisis in Side 3 by returning all the civilians and soldiers there who didn't opt to retreat with her since they already evacuated Axis

No. Bad B_K. You don't get to invent your own version of the lore to make your convoluted headcanon work and then claim it as fact.

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>>15418389
What are you, new? That's literally all he does. It's the entire basis for his impressively dedicated shitposting.

>>15418195
>Also, notice how Char calls out Haman as the false protector of the Zabi legacy. Which is odd since he already repudiated the Zabi family a few sentences before. Which would mean he talking about how Haman tried to use Mineva as a puppet for her own ambitions, and he confronted Haman over that AEUG's first negotiations with Axis.

How would Sweetwater know about that shit?

Moreover, you're contradicting yourself; at the end of A New Translation, Haman sends Mineva down to Earth to study. There's no extended power play with her like in ZZ Gundam, so what "Brazen actions" is Char referring to that the people of Sweetwater would give a rat's ass about? As >>15416821 suggested, your claim rests on some alternate sequel story that can only exist in your head, and thus does not apply to Char's Counterattack.

>>15418354
>Also, notice how Char calls out Haman as the false protector of the Zabi legacy. Which is odd since he already repudiated the Zabi family a few sentences before. Which would mean he talking about how Haman tried to use Mineva as a puppet for her own ambitions

This would imply that Mineva Zabi's existence and role in the Gryps conflict is well known, when in fact even some of the biggest power players of the AEUG and Anaheim Electronics didn't even know she existed until Haman introduced her, meaning it's extremely unlikely that anybody else did at the time.

If ZZ never happened, the colonies and the people of Sweetwater in particular have no emotional investment in the fact that Haman used Mineva to secure power over Zeon because Axis didn't do anything to anyone but the Titans and AEUG in both the Zeta TV series and the movie compilation. If anything, they'd probably hold her in admiration for her role in the destruction of the Titans, whether or not she betrayed the AEUG as well. Also, as >>15416245 brought up, where is she now? Did Char assassinate her and take power? Did the Neo Zeon Civil War happen? Did she just give Neo Zeon over to Char and furiously masturbate while watching his declaration of war? There are a LOT of dependent factors here even ignoring the fact that the people of Sweetwater would merely look at each other and shrug at the mention of Haman's "Brazen actions."

>>15403669
>At this rate, I wouldn't be surprised if they damned F91, Crossbone and Victory Gundam to "Alternate UC" so they can keep the Zeon train going.

To be honest that's how i felt about it until now.
What can you say, people like their Zeon and despite having very vocal fanbases, they are smallish and no Late UC works have managed to make a lasting splash.
Banrise is simply making what sells.

The whole upcoming twilight Axis sthick should give you hope, it's based on a shitty Light Novel, but it's intent was to be the first step in the transition between Neo Hyper Ultra Neo Fighting Continuum X Neo Neo Superior Zeon The Ultimate uprisings and the later UC period.

But if it does bomb, i feel that the scenario you painted is very probable, after all, they already refused to do as much as poke late UC with a stick for decades.

Doing other shit, but making sure the thread doesn't die because this is getting fun.

I'll just quickly point out that the colonists living in a bubble and being ignorant to world events immediately sinks because Quess says 'Well yeah, even I knew that.' right after Char gives the brief history of the Federation, the Zabis, 'Teetans', and Haman.
https://youtu.be/ourB80IQEes?t=1m12s

>>15420152
Yeah, she knew about it because the Federation denounced the Titans thanks to Char's widespread public revelation of the Titans atrocities and behavior and because the First Neo Zeon War happened.

If A New Translation is canon, Axis's involvement is pretty much just relevant to those directly participating. In other words...Haman didn't do anything terribly wrong to anyone that wasn't already fighting. No involvement in any refugee crisis (no matter how much you try to wank it), no sending troops to other colonies...nothing.

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>>15420152
>I'll just quickly point out that the colonists living in a bubble and being ignorant to world

You're missing the point, which is that the specific thing Char is mentioning, which is the actions of Haman Karn, are NOT something the average colonist or refugee would be privy to provided the First Neo Zeon War didn't happen. Her actions during Zeta are neither public knowledge nor something anybody that isn't an active-duty soldier serving in the conflict would care about unless the events of the First Neo Zeon War took place, in which case her campaign to secure power under the false pretense of protecting the Zabi legacy killed a good number of people and displaced plenty others.

Then there's the aformentioned case of what happened to her after ANT? She certainly didn't just hand the reigns over to Char after a romp around in the sack, so how did Char come to power?

Face it, A New Translation was NEVER meant to lead into any other story or be compatible with any existing one. Tomino's not the type to care about that kind of synergy, in case his other alternate takes on his own work weren't a big enough hint. It was merely a less angry modern Tomino making a more optimistic ending to a story that originally had a rather dark cliffhanger.

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>>15420152
>translation: you made a good point and my internal logic have been defeated by actual knowledge of the material, give me some time to fanwank some new bullshit

>>15418354
>During the events of Zeta, they wouldn't know because the Federation and Titans covered up any details on the ongoing conflict.
Just like the 30 bunch incident? Or the fact that Kamille knew about the AEUG when he never had any affiliation with them until he met up with Quatro's team? You underestimate people's desire to know. Or the this assumption that it only matters during Zeta what people knew. Nevermind the fact that Char's Counter Attack happened 6 years later. Furthermore thinking people would celebrate the destruction of A Baoa Qu shows your incredible short sightedness. It was the one military base outside of Side 3 that Zeon was allowed to keep before the puppet government handed it over to the Federation. It was able to survive the largest battle of the One Year War. You'd be a fool to think that destroying A Baoa Qu was a good thing because it robs Zeon of their only forward base to defend itself.

>>15418389
But it was clearly stated that Haman had Axis evacuated and stay clear even after it rammed A Baoa Qu. Pray tell where all those civilians went after the conflict when the reaming Axis forces left the Earth Sphere without Axis in tow? Are you going to tell me they were just jettisoned into space just to spite common sense?

>>15418440
This is some fine cherry picking, because you don't consider Haman's show of strength, wheeling and dealing with the Federation and AUEG to take control of Side 3 or destroying A Baoa Qu to be a 'Brazen Action' It's interesting how none of those actions could have any affect to spacenoids in your view.

>>15418527
Again, you make the huge assumption that the Earth Sphere and colonies would be unaware of Haman's actions 6 years after the Gypes Conflict and how it influenced it no matter how short lived her time in the Earth Sphere was. Also I stress on the fact Char doesn't comment on any specific events. Which works against your favor.

>>15420576
And what would make her be ignorant of any of the actions of the Titans and Haman even if the First Neo Zeon War didn't occur?

>>15421048
Again, you make the flawed assumption that Haman actions didn't become public AFTER the Gryps Conflict, especially 6 years afterwards. Based on what we see, there wasn't a widespread effort to censor and suppress information like with the Delaz Fleet action's in 0083. Char's rise to power would have happened either way for both timelines.

As for what happens to Haman after she leaves the Earth Sphere? It doesn't matter, what if you really want to know? Leave that to a future side story. Truly the genius of Tomino.

>>15422513
>Just like the 30 bunch incident?
Actually, yes; the deliberate massacre of Bunch 30's population was not general public knowledge, so much so that Emma, a high ranking Titan herself, was never made aware of it.

Or the fact that Kamille knew about the AEUG when he never had any affiliation with them until he met up with Quatro's team?
The issue isn't the basics because the basics weren't top secret; it's Haman. Haman is the one that tried to grab power, but the bread and butter of this argument is that in ANT, Neo Zeon is never formed and her power play more or less comes to an end, unless some wacky side story exists that shows how Char came to power in that version, which it doesn't, outside your own head.

>Furthermore thinking people would celebrate the destruction of A Baoa Qu shows your incredible short sightedness.
Even if they did, and aside from a few Zabi hardliners, they probably don't this doesn't answer the core question of why anyone but Zeon should care.

>You underestimate people's desire to know.
You overestimate their ABILITY to know, which still doesn't answer my bloody question; what "brazen actions" is Char referring to? The best part is, you actually have the answer right in front of you; you just don't like it.

>You'd be a fool to think that destroying A Baoa Qu was a good thing because it robs Zeon of their only forward base to defend itself.
From who? The Titans, who were already allowing them to exist?

>Or the this assumption that it only matters during Zeta what people knew.
Considering that it's all that happened (actually less) in ANT, yes, it's all that matters.

>because you don't consider Haman's show of strength
To who? The AEUG? The Titans? The Sides at large didn't even know who or what she was until ZZ?

File: best ZZ reporting in.jpg (18KB, 226x305px) Image search: [Google]

18KB, 226x305px

>>15422533
>Again, you make the huge assumption that the Earth Sphere and colonies would be unaware of Haman's actions 6 years after the Gypes Conflict
They probably do by that point, but you still haven't answered my question; why would they care? Haman did NOTHING in the ANT timeline, Axis's inhabitants, numbering at approximately 30,000, are not NEARLY big enough for the inhabitants to create a serious refugee crisis in the context of UC Gundam where the average population of a colony cylinder is in the millions. and the Republic of Zeon isn't influential enough for A Baoa Qu to matter in terms of defense, since they know they are a Federation puppet anyway. The Titans taking over was just them being more honest than usual.

>15422533
>And what would make her be ignorant of any of the actions of the Titans and Haman even if the First Neo Zeon War didn't occur?
The Titans? Probably, but Haman? Haman didn't affect anything BUT the AEUG and Teetans.

>Again, you make the flawed assumption that Haman actions didn't become public AFTER the Gryps Conflict
You make the assumption that anyone has any reason to care in a world where the First Neo Zeon War didn't happen. Again, Haman was entirely harmless to anyone that wasn't Titans or AEUG in ANT.

>Based on what we see, there wasn't a widespread effort to censor and suppress information like with the Delaz Fleet action's in 0083. Char's rise to power would have happened either way for both timelines.

Not only is there a widespread effort to suppress information and subvert the AEUG in the process; it's a fucking plot point multiple times throughout the show. Kamille merely knows that the AEUG exists, but doesn't have a handle on what they actually are until Char gets ahold of him, Amuro has NO idea what's going on, and Katz

File: elle.jpg (251KB, 717x1012px) Image search: [Google]

251KB, 717x1012px

>>15422604
>As for what happens to Haman after she leaves the Earth Sphere? It doesn't matter, what if you really want to know? Leave that to a future side story. Truly the genius of Tomino.

In other words, your wacky-ass headcanon, as >>15416821 pointed out.

>tfw Black_Nazi is too BTFO to even respond anymore

>>15401624
This

>>15401616
Bad model.