How long did it take you to realize that the androids in DBZ

>>15301577
>robo-vampire
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPFYwKC_JDc

>>15301577
How long did it take you to realize that the Androids are cyborgs, not androids?

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>>15301577
Only 19, 20, and maybe Cell though I'd think he could probably be considered something else given how he drinks the whole person, not just their energy/blood.

>>15301608
This is actually higher budget than I expected.

>>15301577
Hey yeah, now that you mention it 19 does look like Chiaotzu, and he is a chinese vampire.

>>15301716
#16 and #19 are completely robotic. #16 however was based off #20/Dr. Gero's dead son and he still posessed at least his biological brain, #17 and #18 are cyborgs who are humans who had nanomachines literally injected into them with some minor genetic alteration.

>>15301761
Cell has no robotic parts.

>>15301875
>#16 however was based off #20/Dr. Gero's dead son and he still posessed at least his biological brain
Only his looks are based on Gero's son. He's a complete robot.

>>15301886
You're a complete robot.

you ever noticed how all the androids...have blue eyes?

>>15301793

IIRC 19 is based on a doll. Either way, a vampiric robot just sounds wierd if it's absorbing anything other than electricity.

>>15304611

Cell has purple eyes.

>>15304992
they're Ki vampires.

Ki vampires are a classic martial arts story archetype.

It's easy to say that Ki is just a form of bio-electricity.

>>15304611
chink vampires traditionally have cataract

>>15304611
Ever notice how 18 is kinda shit at fighting after her saga?

>>15301608
I had never seen this. Thank you for bringing this into my life.

>>15305051
Every character who isn't named Goku or Vegeta is kinda shit at fighting after their saga.

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The Cell Saga is the absolute prime of DBZ, even if the Frieza Saga was better.

The Cell saga is garbage as it's when Toriyama stopped actually putting thought into things before drawing them, which is why the nature of the androids was so confusing and ill-defined at the time, not to mention all the timeline fuckery that was an obvious result of Toriyama just going ahead with a fucking time travel plot without putting an ounce of thought into how it was supposed to work first. Now years later he shat out all this after-the-fact information like Gero's son and 17 and 18's real names and background, which is all fucking shit.

>>15301608
Dammit dorkly

>>15305078
It's really not, it has some of the worst writing

>>15305091
>The Cell saga is garbage as it's when Toriyama stopped actually putting thought into things before drawing them
No, Toriyama and most writers for Jump have very little planned out as they write their stuff. The issue with cell saga is it was plagued with editor meddling, so enemies are introduced them dropped immediately until it becomes some hackneyed attempt at the escalation that we saw in Freeza Saga.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwFPSsgyS6k and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwFPSsgyS6k are some other Robert Cop / Hopping Vampire movies

https://youtu.be/QA6p86q2M6E
whoops

sage for 2x

17 and 18 had unlimited energy, but their strength was fixed. they couldn't ever get stronger.

>>15305091
>The Cell saga is garbage as it's when Toriyama stopped actually putting thought into things before drawing them, which is why the nature of the androids was so confusing and ill-defined at the time, not to mention all the timeline fuckery that was an obvious result of Toriyama just going ahead with a fucking time travel plot without putting an ounce of thought into how it was supposed to work first. Now years later he shat out all this after-the-fact information like Gero's son and 17 and 18's real names and background, which is all fucking shit.

The only true dragon ball is the first saga. Anything after that is a pure waste.

>>15305091
>It's a "my reading comprehension skills are below DB's target audience so I'll say its shit"

>which is why the nature of the androids was so confusing and ill-defined at the time
Its pretty clear and gets consistent treatment throgout.

> the timeline fuckery that was an obvious result of Toriyama just going ahead with a fucking time travel plot without putting an ounce of thought into how it was supposed to work first
The only plothole in the cell saga's time traveling is Cell (the one we know and love) saying Trunks defeated Freezer on his original timeline.

>Now years later he shat out all this after-the-fact information like Gero's son and 17 and 18's real names and background, which is all fucking shit.
Toriyama contradicts himself a lot, including his interviews, but literally nothing about that trivia contradicts anything stated, just expanded upon it, what's even wrong with 17 and 18's real names?

>>15309088
IIRC its stated on the fullcolor edition they can. Which makes sense as they're enhanced humans, they can get stronger the same way humans in DB(and real life really) can.....which in that universe of course, doesn't amount to much.

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>>15301608
Kung Faux version of this when?!

>>15305078
The Cell arc was the most boring, by far. The Buu arc was the best of the 'Z' era because it remembered that Dragon Ball should be funny, and frankly the Great Saiyaman filler episodes are the best thing the franchise ever produced.

>>15310520
Driver's License is GOAT fill episode.

>>15301761
Goddamn, Momma 18 is adorable.

>>15310520
>I need silliness to have fun

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>>15310520
Buu was the best because Vegito was the best. Just the best

>>15310520
To be honest, the Cell arc was a slog because of how predictable it was going to be.
You knew what they had to do, THEY KNEW what they had to do, yet they fucked up anyways, because the plot needs to progress.

>>15310661
The Cell arc WAS unpredictable because of all the sudden plot twists that made it so you can never guess what happened next. And I'd take the the characters being fuck-ups through there own flaws that help make Cell stronger over the doing stuff and being completely ineffective against the Saiyans and Frieza until Goku shows up to Kaioken/Super Saiyan his way to victory.

>>15301608
oh hell yes, are we godfrey ho posting on /m/ now?
about time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZHb0i6jDSc

>>15310728
I rather Goku doing things rather than him constantly telling me that Gohan is perfect and how much I should like him more than Goku. Gohan is extremely boring and I didn't enjoy how the Cell saga attempts to set him up as the new protagonist.

>>15310772
Gohan is better than Goku person wise.

>>15310728
I think the Cell Saga is why they're trying to push Tien more. He actually didn't job during Resurrection F and he's one of the main characters of the current Super arc.

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>>15310737
>>15301608
what would he pilot?

>>15310915
Yes and because of it he is worse character-wise

>>15305061
krillin have a saga?

>>15310520
I honestly found the Buu saga unbearable because they fight the same annoying asshole for like 60 episodes and the comedy elements just provide a massive mood whiplash to themes like, I dunno, fucking genocide.

It worked a lot better in the original Dragonball when the stakes weren't that high. Sure, people died, but "people" didn't mean "the entire goddamn human race".

>>15301886
I meant that Gero contained his original brain, #16 was completely robotic/mechanical but designed to look like his long dead son.

>>15310772
>telling me that Gohan is perfect
Thanks for proving you didn't pay attention to anything involving his character at all.

>>15310915
Except you can't write a satisfying story around Gohan. Goku and Vegeta's flaws (Niavete and Ego along with fight-addiction for both) can be used to set up stronger foes and challenges to overcome.

Gohan's character flaw is his laziness concerning training, which means to have him be the top guy he has to have power-ups drop into his lap (which is lazy writing and invalidates all the other characters even more than they were already)

>>15314713
Laziness never factored at all in a trait with Gohan's character until the very last story arc of Dragon Ball's original manga. And even then his struggle against Buu wouldn't have been altered in the least because he'd still need to get his potential unlocked from the previous elder/old Kaioshin.

Goku and Vegeta are both one-trick ponies themselves as far as their personalities and behaviors go.

>>15314194
>It worked a lot better in the original Dragonball when the stakes weren't that high. Sure, people died, but "people" didn't mean "the entire goddamn human race".
Except Buu Saga was extremely self aware to the point it mocked the time chamber, created SSJ3 essentially as a joke, and pointed out that death was a minor inconvenience at this point as long as they win. Buu saga knew to have fun, freeza saga still has a lot of fun in it, cell saga is the only saga that takes itself so seriously no lightheartedness is allowed. The only other arc I can think of with no lightheartedness was saiyan saga, because even king piccolo arc have some levity.

>>15314695
Explain yourself, because Gohan is a terrible character. We go through two arcs where they talk about Gohans potential that didn't add up to much outside the one headbutt against Vegeta. Gohan literally is treated as the golden child since they Have Goku incessantly talk about how strong Gohan is, how he's stronger than Goku, and how he's going to save them from Cell. Gohan starts the fucking saga not being able to go SSJ yet by the end is the strongest one. Gohan is a terrible character that was mainly pushed to appeal to children who were reading/watching Dragonball and didn't have a kid character to relate to now that Goku was an adult.

>>15315180
>Explain yourself
Already did.
>Gohan is a terrible character.
That's like just your opinion, aspie.
>treated like a golden child
Gohan's potential has nothing to do with his personality or role as a character in the story or setting. How are you this stupid?
>Gohan was pushed to appeal to children
The entire fandom is aimed at children right from 1984, you stupid new wave dipshit.
>because Goku was an adult
God damn you are a moron. I like how you pulled this claim out of your ass completely groundlessly.

Just now

>>15315681
So you have no real response to back you up. Gohan has next to no character growth or development throughout the entire Cell saga due to his main growth period being off screen in the stupid time chamber. Really the only ones with any growth or character development at all are Trunks and Vegeta.

Gohan all around as a character is incredibly weak and doesn't really receive much characterization at all until the Buu Saga. Prior to that his only display of any character was on Namek and all it wasn't really much, he just was another member of the good guys but he neither does anything noteworthy nor does he have any notable interactions.

Gohan being shoved in so hard in the Cell saga is awkward to say the least since its just Goku, and by extension Toriyama, telling us how great Gohan is for no real reason.

>>15315706
So you are inventing facetious nonsense to buoy your subjective arguments? Neat, no wonder all you can spout is nonsensical non-seqiutur arguments and try to character assassinate Gohan while inventing shit up from out of your ass.

"His growth wasn't foreshadowed"
"He had no good development"
"Toriyama was shoving him in our faces"

Literally buzzwords. Go back to your shitty general in the /dbs/ quarantine threads on /a/, you mongoloid and please kill yourself.

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>>15315706
>Gohan doesn't really receive much characterization at all until the Buu Saga.
Why are you lying this much, anon?

>>15315712
Make your shitposting less obvious.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, show me one scene of character growth or anything meaningful to the character of Gohan as a person in the Cell saga that isn't his suddenly being the strongest in the cast/father son Kamehameha. Because outside of that Gohan is a fucking nonfactor the entire stupid arc until Goku tells us Gohan is going to beat Cell.

>>15315725
Just because you being called out for being a shitposter doesn't make another poster a shitposter, kiddo.

I'll give you no benefit of the doubt since your fishing for the (You)s here. You don't know what characterization is, you don't know what development is, you are talking completely out of your ass, and you are constantly exaggerating lies to perpetuate a false narrative of Gohans' character. You are too stupid even to understand how literary devices work in a story as simple as Dragon Ball aimed at elementary grade children.

I already said so earlier and I will repeat it again: go back to your shitty containment threads in /dbs/ on /a/ or kill yourself. Either option is fine with me, cancer.

>>15315733
Again, name one notable character interaction that Gohan had the entire arc. Sage since I basically had to repeat myself.

>>15315741
Again, you are too stupid to bother repeating one's self over so once more: go back to /a/ or kill yourself. Not a hard concept for even someone as mentally deficient as you to follow.

>>15314713
Gohan isnt lazy though, he doesn't give a shit about training. If he did and didnt train then he'd be.

>>15315180
>created SSJ3 essentially as a joke
It wasn't a joke though, the point is to show that what worked in the two ptevious arcs wont cut it now.

>cell saga is the only saga that takes itself so seriously no lightheartedness is allowed.
Its well written enough to feel that way but cell's design would be seen as a parody in just about any other context.

>>15315681
>the entire fandom
You mean the manga/the franchise, the fandom doesnt have a target.

>>15315741
Why are you switching the goal posts? You originally claimed you can't write a "character like Gohan satisfyingly" then switched tracks to claim Gohan is some kind of mary sue style character.

I'm >>15315720 here, and I'll ask again, why are you lying so much about his character? He's introduced a sheltered child whose mother is over-protective of him. He's forced to go through hell in survival and combat/martial arts training by Piccolo for a year by his father's *technical* killer to face the Saiyans, after that he's among the first of the Z Senshi to jump at a chance to go with Bulma and Krillin to Nameksei to find the Dragon Balls and wish back their dead comrades back to life.

And even after that in the Android/Cell Saga, we're given constant reminders in the manga about his potential as being Goku's son on top of the repeated statements about the power of Saiyan-Human hybrids/half-breeds, the side-story with Future Gohan being the strongest fighter in Trunk's alternate timeline even with one-arm, and Goku and the others all recapping on Gohan's potential and power for his age being insane even compared to what his father did.

Goku puts all his bets on Gohan because Gohan's "explosive anger" and raising his power through his latent potential has been a thing time and time again constantly narrated and set up with his character from his first introduction in the story.

You can not call this bullshit when its there consistently from the get-go by Toriyama. Hell we don't even see anything about Gohan wanting to be a scholar pre Buu Saga time-skip besides a single chapter cover sub-title in the manga. And this was done because more fans still insisted on bringing back Goku as the main lead despite the Buu's Saga and Cell Saga's themes being about the "new generation" i.e. Gohan, Goten, and Trunks.

>>15315762
More or less, yes. DB has always been aimed at children.

>>15315758
Its always funny that a lot of people take issues with the Android/Cell Saga being so serious, much more dramatic, bleaker, and toned as a darker story when the entire switch from the more satire-based and gag humor themed story of DB's Part 1's dramatically did the same thing with the King Piccolo Saga where we have this evil "demon lord" guy running around blowing up cities and murdering people willy nilly.

>>15315779
>More or less, yes. DB has always been aimed at children.
Db!=db fandom

>Its always funny that a lot of people take issues with the Android/Cell Saga being so serious, much more dramatic, bleaker, and toned as a darker story when the entire switch from the more satire-based and gag humor themed story of DB's Part 1's dramatically did the same thing with the King Piccolo Saga where we have this evil "demon lord" guy running around blowing up cities and murdering people willy nilly.
Some people think its cooler to bash dbz and giving db a pass. Others just bash db altogether. Dont try to make sense of hipsters, I already gave up on it.

>The only canon full blooded female Saiyan
>comes from another dimension
>She's going to job in her only fight and quickly be forgotten
Its not fair!

>>15315789
You are being pedantic or intentionally obstinate. The entire run of both Part 1 and Part 2 of Dragon Ball is the same story. "Z" is just the adaption of the second half of Dragon Ball and slapping a new title on it to give the anime a distinctive identity from its predecessor.

>>15315797
Are you talking about Fem-Broly?

>>15315789
DB and DBZ are literally the same story. After the 23rd Budokai arc and Goku finally winning the World Tourney against Piccolo Jr, there's a 4 year timeskip and that's when the second half of Dragon Ball aka Z starts in the manga.

>>15315807
Yeah, I guessing she's going to job so everyone can get a sense of the power scale. A Legendary Super Saiyan can't compete with a Super Saiyan God.

>>15315797
>super
>canon
Stop

>>15315807
>>15315821
>explaining the obvious
I fucking know they're the same you retards. Tryhards don't. If you havent seen tryhards making baseless complaints about dragon ball you clearly havent been on enough db discussions, including this thread.

>>15316004
>Super
>not canon
Wrong.

>>15316354
It makes direct references to non canon material. Its not canon.

>>15316435
Not how it works. If they say it's canon then it's canon and no amount of """logic""" or """rules""" you try to apply can ever, ever change that, no matter what. They can snap their fingers and say GT is canon tomorrow if they so wish and you can do nothing about it.

>>15316435
I need some citations

>>15316449
>Not how it works.
That's literally the point of the concept of canon.

>If they say it's canon then it's canon and no amount of """logic""" or """rules""" you try to apply can ever, ever change that, no matter what.
>logic doesn't matter
At least you're honest on being an inconsistebt retard, but if you don't like logic go back to your prefered safe space. They haven't said its canon and even then if it makes references to other material that'd make said material canon. Which, among other things, would mean the manga is canon.

>They can snap their fingers and say GT is canon tomorrow if they so wish and you can do nothing about it.
Ok, we'll see when it happens. Actually the reason gt can't be canon is the same as to why super isn't anyways.

>>15316460
Watch super. Literally the first episode on where filler characters show up.

>>15316464
The manga isn't canon*

>>15316471
Like fucking who?

>>15316512
Satan's apprentices.

>>15316435
>>15316460
Toriyama is literally the head planner of the show as well as writer. In comparison with Super using GT, it used him for nothing except some character designs.

Toyotaro's manga is also less official then the anime. DBS anime is a continuation of DB.

>>15316519
God, you're autistic

>>15316524
Toriyama looks over Toyotaro's rough drafts

>>15316464
You are an idiot. Even the wikipedia page with the sources links back to Toei and they have told us that Toriyama is the storyboard director as well as a show writer.

Super is canon because of this.

GT isn't because it didn't use him for anything other then character designs.

And their exact words are "this is the official continuation of Dragon Ball's story from Akira Toriyama". If they use filler or anime original characters from Z that weren't in the original manga, all it does is make those characters properly official.

>>15316533
Toyotaro also admits he "fills in" the gaps with his own shit, while Toriyama directly supervises the anime. The DBS manga is literally stated to be an advertisement and companion piece for the anime.

>>15316524
>Toriyama is literally the head planner of the show as well as writer. In comparison with Super using GT, it used him for nothing except some character designs.
And? It still references non canon material. "Toriyama is behind it in some way" wont cut it. Is as valid as sayin gt is for usibg some of his designs.

>Toyotaro's manga is also less official then the anime. DBS anime is a continuation of DB.
>less official
That's how it works. If something is authorized by the ip holders its official, its not a measure.
Dbs takes elements from z ( or arguably kai) but not the manga, therefore not being a continuation of it. Thus, in order for super to be canon the original manga shouldn't be. Which makes no sense.

>>15316525
Not an argument. The entire db fanbase was like this before they had to accomodate their criteria for super.

>>15316536
>You are an idiot. Even the wikipedia page with the sources links back to Toei and they have told us that Toriyama is the storyboard director as well as a show writer.
>Super is canon because of this.
No, just toriyama being there doesnt cut it already explained why.

>GT isn't because it didn't use him for anything other then character designs.
By your own logic, gt should be canon.

>And their exact words are "this is the official continuation of Dragon Ball's story from Akira Toriyama". If they use filler or anime original characters from Z that weren't in the original manga, all it does is make those characters properly official.
Learn what official means. If shueisha didnt sue the creators of those characters means they were always official. Whay you might mean its cajon, which, as said, makes z canon, making the original manga not canon.

>>15316539
>And?
Toriyama > you.
>Kai
Doesn't even fit into this at all. So let's recap:

- Toriyama is directly supervising and writing DBS anime's story
- Which is stated by both him and Toei to be the official direct continuation of DB's manga story
- Toyotaro's manga is only roughly "overlooked" by him and Toyotaro is largely doing his own thing

DBS anime is canon.

You clearly don't know what "official" versus canon means. This is a complete 180 from what Toei does with Saint Seiya. Just like for example with Saint Seiya and DB, Toei completely owns the license and management of both franchises in animation, they don't hold ownership of the source material.

>>15316545
No, because GT has Toriyama doing nothing but character designs. In Super, he's writing the fucking story. How are you this stupid?

>>15316545
>>15316539
No one cares what kind of mental gymnastics you are going to make here to dismiss it. The biggest difference between GT and Super is with Toriyama's involvement and cooperation with Toei in writing, planning, and supervising Super's story where he didn't do anything with GT.

You even tried to dismiss sources from japanese official site that we have linked about how they directly specify on Toriyama's involvement in the new project. This is beyond autistic reaching.

>>15316545
Why would gt be canon? The only thing Toriyama did for it was:

- draw and illustrate rough concept art for Goku and Vegeta's "Super Saiyan 4" forms
- draw and illustrate rough concept art for the Shadow Dragons
- design Baby Vegeta

That's all he did in GT.

>>15316550
>Toriyama > you.
When did toriyama say i'm wrong?

>Doesn't even fit into this at all. So let's recap:
I said arguably, as the filler regerferences were also to stuff in kai.
>- Toriyama is directly supervising and writing DBS anime's story
>- Which is stated by both him and Toei to be the official direct continuation of DB's manga story
>- Toyotaro's manga is only roughly "overlooked" by him and Toyotaro is largely doing his own thing
Except its not the continuation if the manga, as proven. Address this.

>You clearly don't know what "official" versus canon means.
Yes, I do, you are ignoring it.

>This is a complete 180 from what Toei does with Saint Seiya. Just like for example with Saint Seiya and DB, Toei completely owns the license and management of both franchises in animation, they don't hold ownership of the source material.
....so? Toei makes super so it wont help your point.

>No, because GT has Toriyama doing nothing but character designs. In Super, he's writing the fucking story. How are you this stupid?
The "toriyama was involved" argument should be applied fairly to both. You are being inconsistent with yourself.

>>15316554
>No one cares what kind of mental gymnastics you are going to make here to dismiss it. The biggest difference between GT and Super is with Toriyama's involvement and cooperation with Toei in writing, planning, and supervising Super's story where he didn't do anything with GT.
>mental gimnastics
The argument is clear. If "toriyama was involved" were enough, it applies to both. " toriyama was involved" is not enough to prove something canon. I'm just repeating what you're saying.

>You even tried to dismiss sources from japanese official site that we have linked about how they directly specify on Toriyama's involvement in the new project. This is beyond autistic reaching.
Did you even watch super?

>>15316557
I'm not saying gt is canon. It isn't. But the reasoning behind super being canon also allows gt. You have to use an argument larger than "toriyama was involved".

>>15316562
Its a continuation of the manga since Toriyama directly created, wrote, and supervises both Battle of the Gods movie and the DBS TV anime series. Those links are there on the wikipedia article, go read them.

>Toriyama was involved argument should be applied for both

Are you illiterate or just ESL? GT he doesn't give a shit except doing doodles for some character designs, he did this for all of the non-canon DBZ movies (1 through 13) that doesn't make them canon. Same with GT, but with Super, he's writing the fucking story.

So again to recap:

- you have no idea what you are talking about
- you don't know the difference between canon vs official
- you are trying to make a nonsensical equivocation fallacy to downplay why Super is canon and why GT is not
- you are a very stupid poster

>>15316570
>>15316562
Go away retard.

>Super allows GT to be canon.

Again, go away retard. Writing and supervising Super's anime story >>>>> doing illustrations and no other creative or otherwise control over the story does not make GT on the same footing as Super.

>>15316570
>comparing someone writing a story with the same person just doing design work for it
That doesn't work. In fact this sort of dishonest comparison makes me think you aren't a reject from /a/ but rather one of the /v/ermin posters instead.

>>15316571
>Its a continuation of the manga since Toriyama directly created, wrote, and supervises both Battle of the Gods movie and the DBS TV anime series. Those links are there on the wikipedia article, go read them.
Whatever was said was contradicted by the actual show. The show takes precedence over anything about the show. If toriyana appears now and says super had one opening, that wont delete the new one from existence.

>Are you illiterate or just ESL? GT he doesn't give a shit except doing doodles for some character designs, he did this for all of the non-canon DBZ movies (1 through 13) that doesn't make them canon. Same with GT, but with Super, he's writing the fucking story.

So you get to decide what amount of involvment means canon,?


>- you don't know the difference between canon vs official
Ok, why didnt shueisha sue toei for making a ln apparently bootleg show?
>- you are trying to make a nonsensical equivocation fallacy to downplay why Super is canon and why GT is not
No, you're just being selective on where you apply your logic.

>>15310728
>The Cell arc WAS unpredictable because of all the sudden plot twists that made it so you can never guess what happened next.

>What's this? Our hero is able to defeat the villain

>Surely he won't fuck up in such a way that they are allowed to grow stronger

cell saga in a nutshell. They could have killed cell like 10 different times but fucked up all of them

>>15316583
>So you get to decide what amounts of involvement means canon?
Are you really stupid enough to compare someone doing simple designs with someone doing the actual story boarding, drafting, and assisting the screenplay adaptions of his script?
>OK (non-sequitur)
Neat.
>No, you're just being selective on where you apply your logic.
Of course, because I'm not an idiot. You are the one trying to equate a man whose stated his involvement as well as Toei endorsing it on Toriyama writing and supervising DBS as a direct continuation and sequel of the original manga he authored. And you are trying to ignore this by invoking him simply doing art work for GT, which distinctly contradicts both Super, Battle of the Gods, and the original manga.

>The realest 100% canonest of them all
Original Dragon Ball Manga, BoG, RoF

>Everything else
Who gives a fuck, there's like 100000 other possible ways things can go

There's Xenoverse then there's Heroes then there's Super Anime then there's Super Manga and so on

Everything differs but it's "canon" to itself and that's it

I'll never understand why you spergs take Dragon Ball so damn seriously when Toriyama has said a gorillion times he was literally making up shit as it went

>>15316593
>Are you really stupid enough to compare someone doing simple designs with someone doing the actual story boarding, drafting, and assisting the screenplay adaptions of his script?
Both are involvement. You cant arbitraitly draw the line on how many involvement means its canon so you have to say something bigger than just "he was involved", as that count for gt and the movies. An example of this is your wikipedia quote which I contested in the part of your post you didnt quote. If you win that part you'll have proof bigger than just toriyama being involved. So hold this line of discussion if yu want, its secondary to the main issue.

>>No, you're just being selective on where you apply your logic.
>Of course, because I'm not an idiot. You are the one trying to equate a man whose stated his involvement as well as Toei endorsing it on Toriyama writing and supervising DBS as a direct continuation and sequel of the original manga he authored. And you are trying to ignore this by invoking him simply doing art work for GT, which distinctly contradicts both Super, Battle of the Gods, and the original manga.
Super also contradicts the original manga and makes references to explicitly non canon stuff. If this proves gt is not canon so does for super.

>>15316605
While I mostly agree, I dont mind people taking canon seriously as long as they're consistent.

>>15316605
Why are you bringing up games and other stuff that has no importance to Toriyama's works?

>>15316607
Except he can, which I agree with that anon on. There is a fucking huge difference between just being commissioned to do art work on a sequel that Toei created and mandated with no input from Toriyama and collaborating on another project which he directly supervises and writes the story for it.

You're crazy.

>>15316620
>there's a huge difference
Agree. And where do you draw the line?

>>15316628
Between the original creator doing the story for a new work. When Toriyama or anyone else gets a sequel to their work and goes "Yeah I'm down with writing and directing how the story will pan out from start to finish", it says they have more involvement and interest in the work then just being paid to do illustrations or designs.

Here's another example to hit home that belief: Kurumada is the creator and author of the Saint Seiya manga as well as its sequel Next Dimension. Toei owns all licenses to Saint Seiya as they do with Dragon Ball when it comes to animated works. Kurumada was involved with advising on Saint Seiya Omega, which is an anime-only sequel to Shingo Araki's version of the Saint Seiya anime.

But it fluff wise does not exist in Kurumada's manga universe. At all. In relation to this, Shiori also got commissioned to make a prequel to the original manga set in the 18th century during the previous Holy War but as soon as Kurumada decided to do ND, he told her she had "free reign" to do whatever she wanted because he wasn't going to supervise it and its considered for LC to be non-canon as a result. Unlike that, Okada is constantly supervised and involved with Kurumada directing him on Episode G and Episode G - Assassin, which is the main reason why ND has so many hiatuses. So when guys like Kurumada or Toriyama care enough to say "this is how it should go, this is what they would do, this is where the story is going", it seems pretty blatant to me where a work should stand.

>>15316658
Now that's an actually good attempt at making a point. This is actually trying to say more than just "he was involved".

>>15316620
>games
>no importance to Toriyama's works
In most cases that's true, but Dragon Ball Online's backstory, setting info/world building, and key characters were created by him, and before Battle of Gods happened it was being marketed as a continuation of the manga.
It's likely out of the window now, but it's still a look into the kind of ending Super may be leading towards.

>>15316671
Literally none of the video games are canon.

>>15316658
>>15316668
Pretty much this.

>>15316671
DBO is I think the only potential exception yeah.

>DBS ending
Let's be honest, Toei is going to milk this for years and not let it end any time soon.

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>>15316690
>Let's be honest, Toei is going to milk this for years and not let it end any time soon.
Oh definitely, but if they ever grow the balls to actually progress the timeline at all and have characters age, we may see some things from DBO show up like Krillin and Tien opening their own martial arts schools.

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>>15316716
There's still at least plenty of stuff to explore. I have a feeling one of the reasons Toriyama wanted this whole "multiverse" concept was to explore the settings more around the *world* of the story which got hijacked into a constant battle-adventure drama.

There's so much potential with the alternate timelines, different universes, mystical beings, the Super Dragon Balls, etc...And if its like DBO then maybe we'll see Gohan do the whole Grand Research thing with Ki that makes everyone able to use it except martial artists. Also always loved Toriyama's mechanical illustrations and drawings.

I am very glad by the way Gohan is getting swole again since after the shit with Freeza/RoF arc.

>>15316690
I doubt super is gonna last as long as z or one piece. It wont be short, sure (already isnt for anime standards) but I dont think they're extending it THAT much. Probably 3 more years tops. Or till they finally get something that can fill toriko's spot.

>>15316774
I feel pretty confident Super will go over 200 episodes at minimum.

>>15316774
DB is such a huge cashcow, if Toei can get away with it they'd have it run for 10 years. Even when DB/Z had ended its run and GT long over, it consistently pulled huge numbers with its merchandise and at Jump Fiestas even when OP was at its height.

They're gonna squeeze every drop out of it and I feel like will keep Super around for years on years.

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>>15316802
>They're gonna squeeze every drop out
Considering this, I'm surprised they haven't tried any animated spin-offs yet. The end of the Future Trunks arc was the perfect chance to do such a thing, maybe doing something Time Patrol related even, but they just dropped him entirely instead.

>>15316827
Imagining getting an official anime-spin off that directly ties DBO/Xenoverse with Super would be fucking amazing.

>Future Trunks as a Time Patroller
>With the PC Protag
>Getting into wacky occassionl adventures with different realities and alternate universe counterparts of themselves and the rest of the Z-Senshi
First arc could even be like more /m/ related with them ending up dealing with Mecha Cooler going crazy or something.

>Zamasu
Aside from the Future Trunks/Zamasu Saga ending being terrible, I absolutely loved that arc. Especially Goku Black who was amazingly smug.

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>>15316848
>First arc could even be like more /m/ related with them ending up dealing with Mecha Cooler going crazy or something.
>timeline where the spaghetti star assimilates a time machine
>starts fucking things up everywhen and creating Mecha clones of multiple other villains
Easy setup for an arc, and the origin of said time machine could become the focus of the second arc.

>Aside from the Future Trunks/Zamasu Saga ending being terrible, I absolutely loved that arc.
Agreed. Really looking forward to seeing how the manga handles it. Hope Toriyama and Toyotaro can handle the ending a bit better than Toei did.

>>15316827
Actually, the whole space patrol thing WAS a manga spinoff, with Bulma's sister appearing there. DB Cho tries somehow to tie everything canon together.

>>15316848
The thing about Xenoverse is that it rewrites the main continuity up to at least Bills battle which is featured on Super itself rendeding it out of continuity. Also, it states Slug and Turles are from alternative universes, therefore there being nameks, saiyans, Goku and his friends on those which contradicts the stated fact that U6 is the most similar to U7. Then there's the rules of how timelines work stated in Black Goku saga which aren't really alluded to in XV(or in Super, like a new timeline is created and the Time Kaioshin doesn't appear to give a shit). Not necesarilly plot holes but the patchwork required to make XV+Super work is, I feel, too big.

>Aside from the Future Trunks/Zamasu Saga ending being terrible, I absolutely loved that arc. Especially Goku Black who was amazingly smug.
I hated it. When that arc was good, it could get REALLY good(like Mafuba being relevant,Zamasu's character or Vegetto fight), but shit like normal weapons being so useful, the outright deus ex machina ending with trunk's unexplained transformation and the, imo, unnecesary overcomplication of the lore about timelines drag it down.

>>15316913
He said Time Patrol, not Space Patrol.

>DB Cho tries somehow to tie everything canon together.
Not really, the Jaco manga fits perfectly if you ignore Bulma being surprised at aliens in saiyan saga. Dr Slump, given its nature, doesn't need to fit(and already appeared on the original manga).

>>15316920
Biggest issue to me was Trunks Super Saiyan God rage form thing not stemming from his mother's murder but just him going "no I'm done with this shit" was hugely anti-climatic as much as how dumb and stupid the Spirit Bomb sword bullshit was.

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>>15316913
Time Patrol is a seperate thing from the Galactic Patrol.
TP was created by the Supreme Kai of Time to stop people from fucking up and splitting timelines like Trunks did back during the Androids arc. Trunks is recruited to lead the patrol as penance for all the shit he caused.
It was first created by Toriyama for Dragon Ball Online, but has been reused in DB Xenoverse and DB Heroes since.

>>15316932
Even if it stemmed from his mother's death makes no sense. You don't access god ki by rage alone. And even then, why didn't the rage of all the shit the androids did awaken it?
The writing is on par of an old DBZ movie without having the excuse of it being 40 minutes long.

>>15316920
To be honest, I think they treated all the movie villains from Z as being AUs because those compared to the anime/manga continuity are only given rough estimates of where their "set" in during the current arc.

Dead Zone was right before Radditz's arrival, movies 2 and 3 are set in an ambiguous period between Goku's training with King Kaio in the afterlife and before Vegeta and Nappa's arrival, movie 5 was set during the final fight between Goku and Freeza when he got the Super Saiyan form, movie 6 before the Android arc, ect...The funniest thing to me is how much Toei and DB games still shit on GT.

But I think the biggest issue here is that the whole schematic and design of how time travel and alternate timelines work in Z was worked into the Time Patroller concept only to be shattered by revelations in Super.

>>15316952
>To be honest, I think they treated all the movie villains from Z as being AUs because those compared to the anime/manga continuity are only given rough estimates of where their "set" in during the current arc.
The thing is that them being an AU doesn't fit with the multiverse lore, since the multiverses in Super aren't like the multiverses in, well, Multiverse, where they work like DC or Marvel(alternative versions of the adventures of the main heroes, with some exceptions here and there), they're completely different things.

>.The funniest thing to me is how much Toei and DB games still shit on GT.
>this meme is still a thing
Nobody ever shat on GT in any way, including Toriyama. GT and most of the anime only content in DB are treated with lots of respect, specially if you compare it with filler/movie villains on similar shonen franchises. The only comparable thing would be Saint Seiya.

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>>15316952
>The funniest thing to me is how much Toei and DB games still shit on GT.
But they don't. Hell, the games treat SS4 as on par with the god forms even.

>>15316966
>The thing is that them being an AU doesn't fit with the multiverse lore,
It does fit with how alternate timelines work though.
Timelines and universes are seperate things entirely in DB, as shown when Zeno erased everything in Trunks' timeline, but everything still exists back in the normal timeline.
The movies are just alternate timelines, not different universes.

>>15316992
>It does fit with how alternate timelines work though.
AU=Alternate Universe, not alternate timeline.

>Timelines and universes are seperate things entirely in DB
They're always a different thing, timelines and universes are conceptually different. We didn't need Zeno at all to know this, even if the way timelines and universe are connected is not the intuitive one.

>The movies are just alternate timelines, not different universes.
The problem is that there's 6 timelines at the end of Black Goku saga, all of which have some sort of canon content, therefore making at least some of the movies not fitting in, if not all of them. I'm also gonna check if I can find whether XV2 states they're from alternate timelines or niverses.

>>15316992
>>15317009
Just checked and I only found a mention of Mira and Towa recruiting people from other timelines, though never said explicitly for Slug and Turles, so I guess in XV is a timeline, not an AU. Which still doesn't fit super.

>>15317009
>The problem is that there's 6 timelines at the end of Black Goku saga
7 at least.
>Main timeline
>Trunks' timeline
>Cell's timeline
>Main timeline but without a Cell from the future, leading to Cell timeline's Trunks using the deactivation remote to defeat his Androids
>main timeline where Zamasu steals Goku's body
>new Trunks' timeline created for Trunks and Mai to live in
>timeline created by Universe 12's time travel

>>15317064
>timeline created by Universe 12's time travel
Which was this?
Also, which timeline does the Trunks Cell mentioned to Piccolo come from?

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>>15317072
>Which was this?
Dunno, but Super mentioned that Universe 12 were the first mortals to successfully attempt time travel, so there must be at least one extra timeline out there somewhere, if not more.
>Also, which timeline does the Trunks Cell mentioned to Piccolo come from?
The one he killed for the time machine? Cell timeline. He goes to the main timeline w/o a Cell, gets the remote, goes back to his timeline, destroys the Androids with the remote, and then Cell kills him and steals the time machine to grab the Androids from the main timeline.

>>15317096
>The one he killed for the time machine?
No, when he talks to Piccolo, he tells him on his timeline, (what we're calling Cell timeline that is) when Freezer arrived Trunks showed up and killed him, just like happened on the main.
This Trunks isn't the one of Cell's timeline (Trunks wasn't even born yet) and is never clarified in the manga which he is. Most people say its from a never shown original timeline(as its the only one that doesn't require anyone from the future arriving and is definitely not the Trunks on Trunks's timeline) based on how in Super is stated this whole thing started with his original travel. This Trunks is thought to be the one that's part of Time Patrol in online(i recall seeing a source on this last thing but not sure where).

>>15317125
Ah, I forgot about that one. Yeah, I guess there's 8 timelines minimum then.

>>15316658
Wait, Kurumada works with Okada and Ep. G?

>>15317267
Yep. Confirmed in Shonen Red interviews when G was still running before it ended that a major reason for so many hiatuses and breaks on G and ND was due to Kurumada supervising the story on G.

>>15317136
The thing is that in Super 6 time rings are shown, so there's 7 really. They really should release some sort of official explanation.

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>>15310549
Yes, that one is right up there as well.

>>15305091
>this nigga actually thinks Shonen Jump stuff is "thought out" ahead of time
Go back to where you came from you know-nothing

>>15310619
>hasn't seen or read anything before saiyan saga
Fuck offffff

>>15314194
>the comedy elements just provide a massive mood whiplash to themes like, I dunno, fucking genocide.
THIS THIS THIS
It's the entire reason they came up with Super Buu, to fix this. Fat Buu turning whole cities into candy and eating them was fucking disturbing not funny

>>15315789
>>More or less, yes. DB has always been aimed at children.
>Db!=db fandom
Oh my fucking god go the fuck away /v/tard nobody wants you here that's the most pathetic cop out especially considering the actual DBZ fandom at the time WAS KIDS INCLUDING YOU AND ME

>>15316435
You're definitely a newfaggot if you think Canon means fuck all to the Japanese
It's like, the first rule of Gundam threads

>>15301608
Kino

>>15318172
>not having adhd mean you didnt read before saiyan saga

>>15318189
>its wrong too use words correctly
Tumblr is the other way kid

>>15318191
When did I even say that? Why aren you replying to that specific post instead of, you know, the tons that imply they care about canon?