What did Cima do wrong?

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>>15087772
Why the fuck is she so young looking in that art?

>>15087774
She was only 35 in 0083.

>>15087777
>only 35
That's like a billion years old in anime years.

>>15087777
Yeah, and that art makes her look ten years younger.

>>15087782
Unless you are a billion years old, then you look like either a teen or younger.

>>15087774
She still has stress lines in both images.

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interesting to note, Cima's "age lines" get more pronounced in some works

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>>15087797
Where as in other works the age lines don't exist.

>>15087772

Cima's task force was in charge of subduing the population of one of the colonies of Side 2 during the One Week War. She had been told that the canisters of gas equipped to her squadron was highly potent sleeping gas that would render the colonies population unable to fight back. In reality however, she was carrying a biological weapon known as G3 Gas, which proceeded to spread into the colony and slowly and horrifyingly killed the entire population of the colony [Estimate to be roughly 12-15 million within the colony at the time]

Technically, Cima and her unit did not do anything wrong by their own decision, however they were tricked into pulling the trigger on a bio weapon that was labeled under war crime regulation. After her own home colony of Mahal is revised into the Colony Laser, she is left homeless and her own commanding officer proceeds to pin the entire G3 incident on her, making her ineligable to join the escape fleet to Axis at the Granada Karma relay point.

Soon after being exiled from Zeon, she and her crew of marines would become pirates and would assault civilian and military vessels from both the Republic of Zeon and the Earth Federation until eventually being called upon by Delaz to aid in his insurrection, however at the same time she had been approached by Jamitov Hymans faction about having her crimes absolved in return for aiding in destruction of the Delaz Fleet.

Basically in 0083 she served as a mole to the Federation, first by attempting to leak the Naval Review assault information to Wayat Greens fleet, which failed due to the intervention of the Albion, then was integral to prepping the colony drop plan for Jaburo, which was originally planned to be destroyed by the Solar System II under Basks command. She had completely betrayed Zeon and sold her loyalty to the most corrupt elements of the Federation. Had her unit managed to survive, they very well could have become one of the initial mop up task forces.

>>15087800
what fuck the

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>>15087797
>>15087800

>>15087868
So, to sum it up.
Side 2 incident: not at fault, blamed anyway
Post exile: became a pirate, while I can't condone it, I can understand it (finding a port to resupply would be nigh impossible)
0083: Everything was the Albion's fault, and Kou murdered an innocent woman in cold blood.

If she had survived, and the Feds had honored their deal, would Cima have joined the Titans or just retire?

>>15087902
>If she had survived, and the Feds had honored their deal, would Cima have joined the Titans or just retire?

Even had the Federation honored the matter of absoloving her of the crimes of One Year War, Jamitov and Bask would have had more than enough dirt to keep her unit under their heel, thus trapping her as a tool for the Titans. Given her units talent, they could have very easily survived up until Zeta Gundam as long as they were not used an example in the Titans mass Zeon purge from 0084 to 0085.

On a side note, in the Gihrens Greed series if you are playing as Revil, you have the option of absolving Cima of all of her crimes in return for her fleets aiding in the destruction of the colony. Cima and her unit become completely free to live as they see fit at this point, and personally decide to remain with the Federation from that point forward, even rejecting the Titans and personally standing with the Federation and even A.E.U.G if the Federation chooses to merge with them. If you play your cards right, you can have multiple situations like this occur.

Absolve Cima of her sins: She and her crew join the Federation as loyalist under Revils command. Revil loses positive alignment as a result.

Prove yourself to not be a corrupt asshat like Jamitov and his crew: Scirroco chooses to join the Federation under Revils command. No alignment is lost.

Agree to destroy all data on Cyber Newtypes and to put the survivors of the project out of their misery without further experimentation from Augusta: Zero Murasame rejoins the Federation from the Titans and also manages to steal data on the Psycho Gundam for Federal use.

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>>15087772
She a traitor and died as a traitor deserves. Impaled and staring in many scat doujins.

Titans would have likely killed or betrayed her eventually, they would know a leopard doesn't change it's shorts so easily.

Literally nothing, and I'm not even joking. She would have saved lives.

She is portrayed in a seemingly negative light, whereas people talk about Gato's "resolve" and "honor" when he's actually one of the worst, or most "evil" people in the franchise.

>>15088487
How is Gato's "evil" again?

>>15088503

He's a political fanatic who idolises Gihren and Zeon, despite not actually knowing that much about Gihren beyond the public persona and never questions or doubts either the nation or ideology of Zeon or any plans or orders he's part of. He was part of a faction that dropped colonies and gassed civilians and then when they lost started a new war and dropped another colony because he was zealous in his belief in Zeon. He's evil in the way most any Nazi was, and would be declared so by something like the Neuremburg trials if UC had an analogue, because he just follows orders and that's not actually a defence or excuse.

Mind you, I don't think Cima or most Zeon characters are any better - but Gato typifies it really, and his belief and honor are almost his defining traits. Mostly because they're his only traits.

>>15087772
for trusting Zeek's ideals.

>>15087868
> Cima and her unit did not do anything wrong by their own decision
for a soldier that have no idea of their weapon & equipment capabilities; blinded with MUH IDEALS at the same time, the blame is on them naturally.

you can't give soldier a handgun range weapon & order them to kill enemy at a sniper range or beyond, they sure be in riot mode as it was illogical.
not to mention soldier usually trained with weapons to know the capabilities of it & they'll make use of it into battlefield later. because information is power.
BUT if you infuse them with propaganda shits like wunderwaffe & IDEALS, they'll be like "LET'S DO THIS MOTHERFUCKER!" with the handgun range weapon , no matter the situation in.

the main point is soldier should have acquire the actual info on their armaments before into battlefield, not deceived by ideals or whatsoever because lack of actual information into battle is bad.
DIN DU NUTING WURONG because own decision? probably. but DIN DU NUTING WURONG because lack of knowledge? totally wrong.

>>15088553
What the heck?

Gato actually fought for Zeonic belief of freedom for the spacenoid and against the corrupt EF government.

How is that evil?

>He's evil in the way most any Nazi was, and would be declared so by something like the Neuremburg trials if UC had an analogue
This is retarded, most nazis aren't even "evil".

>>15088635
>Gato actually fought for Zeonic belief of freedom for the spacenoid and against the corrupt EF government.
>How is that evil?

I dunno, being willing to kill millions in the name of a genocidal lunatic is a fairly morally questionable act.

>>15088639
Not really morally questionable act at all, considering it's to save billions more.

The Allies also saves millions of "nazis".

>>15088635

Because he accepted with no apparent questions or remorse that mass slaughter of Spacenoids was a good method of achieving Spacenoid freedom. A freedom some of them already had.

It's not his cause that's evil, it's his unquestioning dedication to it and actions in the name of it that is. And while most Nazis aren't evil, the common perception of them and summary of their actions and cause is that they're evil. Therefore most Nazis are thought of as evil. And Gato is evil in the same way.

Additionally, most of the higher ranking ones caught after WWII were declared as such through the Neuremburg trials for the reasons I stated: that following orders is not an acceptable defence or excuse for doing inhuman things.

>>15088659

> You want me to help kill this one guy to save those two?
> There's no reason to question the morality of that at all

>>15087772
Killed an endangered species to make a blanket

>>15088662
>Because he accepted with no apparent questions or remorse that mass slaughter of Spacenoids was a good method of achieving Spacenoid freedom.
Because it is undeniably so, without the defeat of the EF, there can be no freedom.
>A freedom some of them already had.
Like free of EF's taxasion or laws?
>It's not his cause that's evil, it's his unquestioning dedication to it and actions in the name of it that is.
That's not being evil, that's being dedicated, and this time it's a good cause.
>Therefore most Nazis are thought of as evil. And Gato is evil in the same way.
So they aren't evil then.

>Additionally, most of the higher ranking ones caught after WWII were declared as such through the Neuremburg trials for the reasons I stated: that following orders is not an acceptable defence or excuse for doing inhuman things.
And the Nuremberg trial was a kangaroo court, where accusers freely accuse and the defendees are tortured, these men can do nothing and get accused everything.

>>15088659

And who are the 'billions'?

The billions that Zeon killed or the billions who want nothing to do with their cause?

>>15088667
>This guy is oppressing the other guy
>the other guy still sides with this guy
Ergo, it's better to kill him and the oppressor so you can free yourself.

>>15088635
Let's point out an irony: Gato & Delaz stole the GP-02 because it could shoot nukes and technically, that does violate the Antarctic treaty BUT Gato thinks it is just & right and sees no problem in being the one to violate the treaty by actually using the nuke. While "evil" may not be 100% correct, Gato isn't anywhere near a good or neutral standpoint since his blind fanaticism makes him rationalize that his actions are in no way bad because it is in the name of Zeon.

>>15088674
The billions who want freedom or nothing to do with the EF.

>>15088673

I'm pretty sure you're the same anon who posts like he's a real Spacenoid and anything is worthwhile because "muh One World Order" and thinks warlords are the greatest form of political rule so I'm basically just going to ignore you because discussion with you is fairly worthless, but

> Like free of EF's taxasion or laws

Yes. Zeon and Riah both were completely free of those things.

>>15088681
Gato is just using the EF's weapon against them.

They broke the rules, thus they deserve to be bled by those very same rules.

>>15088682

Hm, well, we don't see many of those outside of Zeon's ranks. Maybe they were unfortunately among the millions of Zeon's own people that they killed through wanton gassing and nuclear exchanges.

Tragic.

>>15088683
The very same.

>Yes. Zeon and Riah both were completely free of those things.
How about other colonies then?

>>15088687

Why do you think I used the word "some" in the first place?

>>15088686
If they don't want to be free, then they can serve as steps for us to be free.

Down with the EF! Down with the NWO!

>>15088688
The fight for freedom rings on then.

To a world where every colonies have their own faction and government, and is no longer subjected to the EF/NWO.

>>15088689
>These people don't have the problems we have
>WELL WE'LL MAKE THEM HAVE PROBLEMS BECAUSE FUCK THEM

>>15088694
They have problems as well, they just accept it.

I don't.

>>15088689
>>15088693
You mean in the Late UC where the colonies were said to either fight each other or be embroiled in perpetual civil war?
The idea is hilarious because it boils down to "We don't want to be fucked over by a unified government on Earth, we want to be fucked by a unified government in SPACE!"

>>15088698
Please Stop sameffaging. Why are you doing this?

>>15088703
Autism is a hell of a thing.

>>15088702
Yes, rather that than the eternal spacenoid vs EF rebellion.

Wars would be a lot smaller and more like skirmish because the factions are smaller, and they respect the balance of power.

>>15088705
So, even though depictions of this have the colonies getting trashed or flat-out having areas ruined (far worse than anything done in the wars with the EF) this is a-ok since the EF isn't involved other than letting a colony's personal task force dock at their bases.

>>15088038
>staring in many scat doujins
>staring

Why would she watch such things?

>a leopard doesn't change it's shorts so easily
>leopard
>shorts

U wot m8?

>>15088715
In the war against the EF, entire colonies are destroyed, just fucking blown up.

Nothing the skirmish in late UC can compare.

>>15088723
>entire colonies are destroyed, just fucking blown up
By the spacenoids so they can slam them into Earth. It's harder to slam a colony into another colony.

>>15087772
She died.

>>15088727
Thus, war becomes less devastating when it's spacenoid vs spacenoid, and no EF involved.

>>15088736
>war becomes less devastating when it's spacenoid vs spacenoid
Technically more since Colonies would become a battleground more often since to attack their enemies directly they'd have to assault a colony
>no EF involved
This has no effect on being alright with slaughtering your own people just to get one shot at your enemies.

>>15088751
>Technically more since Colonies would become a battleground more often since to attack their enemies directly they'd have to assault a colony
Not really, as long as the colonies stand, they can be rebuilt, and as said, the force would be much smaller.
>This has no effect on being alright with slaughtering your own people just to get one shot at your enemies.
There's no future without war and conflict, but we can keep war and conflict small by splintering the powers.

>>15088756
I mean, if you only care about the colonies as in the buildings and not the people. Which in fact is what happened! They'd slaughter everyone in a colony, toss their corpses out, and then just rebuild.

>>15088764
Without colonies, everyone would be dead.

I value human lives, but a colony is more valuable than a group of people.

>>15087772
Cima lied, Zeon died.

>>15088771
>having a house is better than having people to live in it!

>>15087772
>>15087868
>>15087902
>>15088602

I'm surprised no one here has posted this video of the incident with Cimas team. Heck there is even a cameo of Shiro Amada from 08th MS team.

https://youtu.be/E2I-tEfQxFk?t=169

>>15088795
Opps posted the wrong time, here it is again:

https://youtu.be/E2I-tEfQxFk?t=169

>>15088771
Good: Slaughtering everyone to take their colony.
Bad: Not.

>>15087772
Nothing. In fact, she and her crew were needed to stop the colony drop from happening.

But cuckboy Kou had his fee fees hurt after Cima accidentally killed Burning, and decided to act out of petty revenge and kill her. Allowing Operation Stardust to suceed.

>>15089065
So it's all Kou's fault that millions died, the Titans were formed, and the Federation suffered massive internal corruption.
Why was he the protagonist again?

>>15089359
Because carrots

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>>15089368

>>15089359
Operation Stardust was a "semi" success the moment the Solar System II failed to destroy the colony, nothing short of a nuclear assault would have stopped it from falling on target, and the last time the Federation tried to blow apart a colony in that manner, it ended up killing hundreds of millions in North America, Africa, the Middle East and the biggest colony shard falling onto Sydney.

Cima's unit was in full retreat mode to relink with Basks forces when Kou ended up intercepting and destroying them over the hissy fit of Burnings death.

The funny thing about Operation Stardust though was how Gato fucked it up at the end. The colony was completely on route to fall, while not directly onto Jaburo, close enough that the base would be crippled. Gato chose to modify the course into North America to send a political statement against the Federations citizens. Had the colony managed to fall on Jaburo, Jamitovs death may have avoided the Titans formation at all, including leaving the Federation far more crippled as a whole.

>>15089433
I thought the whol point of Stardust was to starve the fedration of it's food supply and that's why the colony was going to fall on North America.

>>15088602
How was she supposed to know it wasn't a sleeping gas. She's not a chemist.

>>15089359

To be fair, they kept the albion completely in the dark about their deals with Cima. Just a call, a single call would've been enough to prevent the albion for messing up with a perfectly good plan to stop the evil zeeks and atone a fleet of wronged warriors.

>>15088553
>would be declared so by something like the Neuremburg trials if UC had an analogue

I wonder what happened to Zeons POWs

>>15089457
That was Jamitov and Bask's doing. They wanted Stardust to succeed so they could have a reason to create the Titans.

>>15089459
Either repatriated or sent into forced labor.

>>15089441

Its still debated to this day, however many sources point to the fact Delaz had been intrested in hitting Jaburo the entire time while Gato had a moment of foolish idealism that led him to attack North America.

Destroy Jaburo: Kill the Federations command structure.

Attack Food supplies: Federation raids Side 1, 2, 4 and 5 for their food and water supplies, quickly using the North America attack to justify any and all forced security of colonies.

>>15089463
Bask was supposed to destroy the colony with the Solar System but he panicked and fired before it was fully charged. Stardust actually falling was not according to keikaku. Jamitov capitalized on it anyway, but it wasn't actually the plan.

If the Solar System shot had succeeded in destroying the colony, Bask would have been seen as a hero that saved the earth from insane spacenoids that need to have their shit kicked in before they try this again.

>>15087772

Cima was a moron.

> Believe in Zeon and sign up
> Zeon betrays you
> Okay, fine, it's only once and they only made me and all my men mass murderers - that's no reason to question the cause, defect or do anything drastic. Sieg Zeon!
> Well that's pretty tragic but her continued loyalty is a little weird considering she's supposed to have PTSD about the event
> Oh, they betrayed me again
> They just destroyed my homeland though, that's okay. I mean betraying me twice doesn't make a pattern or anything. I still believe, Sieg Zeon.
> Tragedy isn't really as stark now show
> They betrayed me a third time
> Oh nooooo, now they won't even let me be part of the cool Zeon kids club
> Sieg Ze...wait, guess I can't do that
> Guess I'll turn on them now

She was betrayed 3 times in a 5 minute backstory. Once is tragic, twice dilutes that and makes it seem more like an issue on her part but three times is just plain comedy, not tragedy. And no "but I couldn't leave, no-one would have me" isn't an excuse, because (a) the show didn't really establish that she considered leaving but didn't, only that one defector was found and (b) the choice between staying with a side that has betrayed you and made you in to something you apparently hate and a side that might fuck you up shouldn't be a choice.

Putting that aside though, her not leaving because she fears the EF will execute her is dumb as balls anyways. Factions adore defectors in war, especially if they can bring materials or knowledge with them. Even if Cima and her squad couldn't bring that though, they could still be double agents to help guarantee their safety. It's a risk, but Zeon has already betrayed her, so why she'd care about that is rather mysterious frankly because staying with them is also a definite risk.

Cima's story was meant to be tragic, but they got heavy handed and greedy (as well as stingy during editing) and it went so far over the line it just become idiotic.

>>15089602
I don't know, you can make anything sound like that if you oversimplify it.

>>15089653

Then re-complicate it and show me where the remaining tragedy is. I think the decision to make her so tragic she was betrayed three times and only decided to turn sides years later is what made her silly, but I could be wrong.

>>15089708
There wasn't really three betrayals. Betrayals of trust, maybe, but until they kicked her out they hadn't really completely betrayed her. If we knew as little about Char as we do about her, it wouldn't be hard to make it sound the same (no, I'm not saying it's the same thing, just the original point: it's easy to oversimplify things).

>>15089742

Are you saying that Cima getting PTSD from gassing fellow spacenoids and still having that 4 years later isn't something she'd consider a betrayal? I think the complete destruction of your homeland by your own side (I don't recall anything about the people being saved either) would also be more than a betrayal of trust for most people.

>>15089790
I recall her Side was used to make another weapon, and all of her and her crew's families were displaced and they had not kept record of where they were sent.

>>15089790
No, you're definitely right - it is. We just don't know all of the details in depth. I'm basically just giving the entire situation the benefit of doubt.

>>15087793
>stress lines

?

>>15088038
>She a traitor

For not seeing fit to show loyalty to the establishment that set her up and then stabbed her in the back for it?

>>15088553
I'm more put off by his and Delaz's hypocrisy.

>>15088602
>not knowing how the "need to know" basis works

It's like you've never served in the military!

>>15090058
there's some case like "hey soldiers, you need to do that mission & that's ALL you need to do & know." but soldier's ain't a machine. not a complete machine, yet.
& that's why there's soldier refuse the mission, or accept job & later gone rouge against anyone when mission gone haywire.

when Cima accept the mission with her brain gone full MUH IDEALS, without any second thought & later get the shits splat right on her fucking face, i'd say it's misfortune of her birth, as well her trust into zeek's ideals.

Looks like a lot of clarifications are needed in regards to the motives and objectives of Operation Stardust.

>>15089511
>>15089500
>>15089433
>>15089500
First off, a colony drop on Jaburo would have changed nothing. The big misconception is that destroying Jaburo would have somehow crippled the Federation post 0079. When by then they would have spread out their command structure and along with military production and R&D. It would have been a death blow during Zeon's War for Independence because the Federation was already being pushed back by Zeon's blitzkreg where they wiped out the Federation aligned side which included their space GHQ at Side 1. Second, it would require a sizeable force like Zeon possessed at the time to actually capitalize on the chaos that a colony drop would create. The Delaz Fleet for all their moxie and patriotism would not be able to do that and it's not like the Federation would decide to suddenly lay down their arms in 0083 just because they see Jaburo go up in a giant fireball. It's simple critical thinking based on the situation and size of forces.

Furthermore, even though the operation was leaked and it was planned to have the colony destroyed. Jamitov and the Federation command would have already evacuated Jaburo by the time it hit, as seen by how completely calm they were regarding the drop and them dumping general Jet Black to fend for himself at the base after having him arrested.

Furthermore the Solar System II failed not because of Bask, but because Gato was able to destroy the ship that controlled the array while it was firing, so it was not able to fully focus on the colony


The reason for the drop on North America was to disrupt the growth of the Federation to buy time for the next group of revolutionaries to come forward and carry the banner of independence against the Federation. Granted that was during Haman's short live trek back into the Earth Sphere with Axis before she retreated back to the Asteroid Belt.

>>15090212
So the famine on Earth was just a side effect of the colony crashing into the North American continent?

>>15087772
She didn't check the Gas

>>15088038
>betraying the FUCKING NAZIS
>after they've already hung you out to dry
>a bad thing

>>15090267
Disrupting the growth of the Federation and reigniting the desire for spacenoid independence were the main objectives. The former was to buy time for the latter to build up.

>>15090184
She was lied to. How is she going to check the weapons she has? Just crack open the shells and get a good whiff of it to make sure its a sleeping agent and not death gas?

>>15090315
How is she suppose to? She doesn't have a lab at her beck and call to test the chemical composition of her weapons.

Too much fiber.