Amuro Ray: Hero or Histories Greatest Monster? Rewatching 0079

>>15006946
still better than Murderzuki

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>>15006946
>why is Amuro such an asshole?

You'd have to indulge him some slack. He's a teenage boy caught up in the middle of a war watching people around him. Plus all the newtype BS he's going through and the only people who can relate to are either dead or tryng to kill him. And that's to say nothing about watching his home get destroyed and the mommy/daddy issues he had to deal with along the way.

>>15006946
Genuine question, and not a dig at you OP: Did you watch SEED prior to this?

>>15007032
I've never seen either SEED series.

>>15006946
A damn fucking Canadian who got lucky

>>15006950
no

Looking bad at 0079 I have to say that Amura was indeed a little biatch.
People will say "you have to understand the situations he was in and the world he was living in" however you can say that for any MC in any gundam series.

>>15006946
>shoots fleeing soldiers in the back
>shoots completely unprotected soldiers with the gundams weapons

So? They're Zeeks.

>>15007080
A lot of Gundam mcs are trained soldiers, the one's that aren't are usually brats like Amuro

At least he was better than all the main gundam pilots in Seed, who I think have the highest confirmed kill rate despite all being varying levels of "pacifists". Amruo just wanted to get the fuck out.

Still it would be funny if Amruo was replaced by someone like Io Flemming

>implying you weren't/aren't a entitled teenage dipshit

Now give him the most advance weapon of his time and the weight of half the entire human race.
Anyone would crack.

>>15007080
>you can say that for any MC in any gundam series.

Yes, but most of them were even bigger dipshits and mary sues than Amuro ever was.

>>15007118
This.

The reason why I asked >>15007032 earlier is because Kira (and I guess Banagher) are anomalies: Civilians who are unusually good at piloting (I know there's good reasons for both of them, but they don't explain those straight away), but are also non-bratty people that want to avoid bloodshed. They set a particular expectation of MC behavior for viewers that watched SEED or Unicorn prior to the UC works.

>>15007188
>who I think have the highest confirmed kill rate
Did we ever count this out?

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>>15006946
>shooting enemy combatants isn't ok just because you have better firepower and armor

>>15007239
I don't remember the exact count, but I think it's something like:
>Amuro: 130~150 (across MSG, cameos in Zeta, CCA)
>Uso: 150~160
>Kira: 90~110 (across SEED and destiny)
>Shinn: 120~130
I'm not sure if Kira's 'disables' count as kills, or if they counted suits/vehicles destroyed vs # of lives lost (aka 'beat Suzaku's high score').

>>15007080
>Looking bad at 0079 I have to say that Amura was indeed a little biatch.
>>15007118
>the one's that aren't are usually brats like Amuro
>>15007235
>Kira (and I guess Banagher) are anomalies: Civilians who are unusually good at piloting (I know there's good reasons for both of them, but they don't explain those straight away)
Yeah, and I think this is where Amuro's brattyness wears thin; Unlike Kira who due to being a Coordinator was literally the only one who could pilot the Gundam (or even Banagher gene lock, but the whole point of the Unicorn and La+ program is to find someone worthy of the Box), Amuro... didn't really NEED to pilot...

Yes, he was one of the best pilots on White Base, but he wasn't the ONLY one who could operate the Gundam, let alone a Mobile Suit.

>>15007268
>Amuro... didn't really NEED to pilot...
Early on he more or less had to. He was one of the few able-bodied people left on board the White Base, and by virtue of climbing into the thing he was the one with the most experience piloting it. He was made to pilot early on because of circular logic; Amuro pilots the Gundam because he has the most experience piloting the Gundam because he pilots the Gundam because he has the most experience piloting the Gundam, ad infinitum. Hell, he was a damn good pilot even early on; surgically stabbing a Zaku through the cockpit so that the reactor doesn't blow another hole in the colony is an impressive feat.

Calling Amuro a whiny brat trivializes his experiences; the kid is essentially guilt-tripped into piloting because, thanks to circular logic, he's the best chance the White Base crew and civilians have to not all get killed. So he pilots and is forced to see and do bunch of fucked up shit at a young age, but somehow despite this, piloting also becomes one of the last few means of self-affirmation Amuro has. So even though he complained a lot about about having to pilot, Amuro snaps when he overhears Bright talking with Mirai about replacing him. Taking away the Gundam from him would almost invalidate everything he had done to up to that point; why did he have shoot a guy and ruin his relationship with his mother. why did he have to kill so many people, and why did he have to do dangerous things like fight against one of Zeon's top aces, perform unassisted reentry, and protect the White Base against swarms of North American Zeon forces, if someone could have just taken his place? Part of Amuro's deserter arc is him having to confront the fact that fucked up things happen in war without regard for who they happen to, and that people have to continue on. He's not the only one who can pilot, but he ends up having to anyway, and a large part of his character growth is him coming to terms with why.

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>>15006946

He redeemed him self in Captain of Cosmos

>>15007118

>a lot of Gundam MCs are trained soldiers

In sidestories and supplementary material, maybe.

The only mains with any sort of military training are Shinn, Uso, Mika, I guess Asemu, and maybe Garrod if you squint.

Having MS know-how is something a lot more characters have, Kamille, Judau, Flit, whatever else, but only a sparse handful are actual soldiers or soldiers in training before they even claim their respective Gundam for themselves.

>>15007385
>Early on he more or less had to. He was one of the few able-bodied people left on board the White Base, and by virtue of climbing into the thing he was the one with the most experience piloting it. He was made to pilot early on because of circular logic; Amuro pilots the Gundam because he has the most experience piloting the Gundam because he pilots the Gundam because he has the most experience piloting the Gundam, ad infinitum. Hell, he was a damn good pilot even early on; surgically stabbing a Zaku through the cockpit so that the reactor doesn't blow another hole in the colony is an impressive feat.
Okay, I'm going to admit that I am a massive newfag, and haven't watched the original Gundam.
My friend claims that the Gundam has a learning computer, and that at any time, they could've replaced Amuro, using the computer's data to replicate his skills. Is this true, or an exaggeration?

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>>15006946
>Histories Greatest Monster
Funny you would say that, because that's the manga version.

>dat expression on Bright and Fau-brow's faces.
http://korokobo.michikusa.jp/gundam/GUN_01.html

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>>15007657
So scary they had to censor off this panel in the reprints.

>>15007649
exaggeration Cause even though the Gundam has a learning computer it can't pull off the precise movement amuro can your friend may be think of crossbones where a ai is made using amuro's piloting skills from the oyw but that's like almost 100 years in the future

>>15007649
>at any time, they could've replaced Amuro
Not with the pilots they had on the White Base, not at the same efficiency though. All of the other potential pilots were newbies as well and generally worse than Amuro. The computer learns attack patterns, not direct skills, you still need to pull off the actual thing.

Also, Amuro was an emerging newtype of a strenght none of the other white base pilots were, at the end of MSG, those newtypes powers meant that he could go on whole massacres, shooting a dozen of ms in a couple of minutes without breaking a sweat, only a handful of pilots who were also newtypes could pose him some issues and they were usually blown to bits all the same. Hell at the end the gundam couldn't keep up with Amuro skills at all.

Anyone could have managed the gundam, especially Kai and Hayato who were using the guntank and guncannon (the other ms units), but none of them could have pilot the gundam like Amuro did.

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>>15007657
>http://korokobo.michikusa.jp/gundam/GUN_01.html

jesus christ bright calm the fuck down

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>>15007679
This version of Bright-san is not to be messed with...

>>15006946
There's nothing wrong in shooting people in their backs or if they're unprotected.
>shits on anybody trying to serve him food or nice advice
>deserter
You forgot one thing: he has killed the best girl.

>>15007666
>exaggeration
>>15007667
>none of them could have pilot the gundam like Amuro did

That's what I was thinking. Friend thinks Amuro is overrated, and was trying to argue that 'the computer was doing all the work, Amuro was the warm body needed to make the Gundam move'.

>>15007716
> 'the computer was doing all the work, Amuro was the warm body needed to make the Gundam move'.
That's more Kira's thing.

>>15007716
>>15007743
At the beginning, Amuro certainly relied on the Gundam's superior armor and weaponry, but even at the last third of MSG0079, he was already too good for his suit.
By Zeta he could handle advanced suits with even a grunt suit. Amuro is just one of the strongest pilot in the UC (and probably in the entire franchise) and though he doesn't have the strongest newtype powers of UC, he still has them at a pretty high level.

What is your friend's favorite series...? if SEED it's obviously too good to be true.

>>15007752
>What is your friend's favorite series...? if SEED it's obviously too good to be true.
Nailed it.
'Kira is the best Gundam protag, but only because they didn't make the original series about Char'.
'Amuro is overrated, Kira is better'.

>>15007268
>Unlike Kira who due to being a Coordinator was literally the only one who could pilot the Gundam
This is just such a bullshit excuse to restrict the gundam use to him. I mean, they try to develop mobile suits to fight ZAFT's coordinators but only a coordinator can program and fight effectively in it... Genius really.

>>15007766
Remind me, did Kira help write the OS that eventually allowed EA/Natural pilots to control mobile suits?

If so, did Kira inadvertently PROLONG the war?

>>15007782
Yes he did when on Orb he helped them improve the os of the Astray (iirc), or whatever very first grunt suit Orb launched, manned by the three girls. Then the os was copied by the EA.

Kira had more or less no moral or political views, he was pretty much a "violence is bad xcept when I do it cause I can control the amount of damage I do because I'm super gifted" type.

>>15006946
>Histories Greatest Monster?
How can you even ask this question of Amuro when Gihren Zabi is in the same story? Girhen ordered the execution of billions of civilians with the Three Second Warning. He is the person most directly responsible for the death of half the human race during the One Week Battle.

Besides, Jamil Neate is way worse. His actions led to the mass colony drop that killed 99% of Earth's 10 billion inhabitants. But at least he's not Shinn.

>>15007825
>Besides, Jamil Neate is way worse.
It's not like he decided by himself to get in the GX and fire on the colony. He was in because he was one of the few to be able to use the Flash System. Besides, he did tried to stop the colony drop... by destroying colonies sure but still.

Not to say that Jamil is pure as snow and he is shown to be quite fucked up by the guilt, but he is not on the same plan as Girhen. Little hands and soldiers can't be said to be innocent of the orders they carried, but it's not like he was in because he wanted to actively kill billions of people, contrary to Gihren or even Char for that matter.

>>15007840
>He was in because he was one of the few to be able to use the Flash System. Besides, he did tried to stop the colony drop... by destroying colonies sure but still.

Also, it's pointed out (in series (by Katokk, whose family were on one of those colonies) that the people in those colonies were probably already dead when the SRA used them for their mass colony drop. If they were anything like the Zeon they were based on, then the SRA likely gassed them all first.

>>15007637

If you're going to count Uso there's no reason not to count Kio. Or Heero, Setsuna and Bellri for that matter, one of whom has definite militia training and experience while another is a supersoldier and probably has direct combat experience and possibly performed some assassinations as well as both having training for mobile suits.
Loran has mobile suit training and experience too, though probably not much and has no military training or experience.

So the ones with military training from main shows are more like Heero, Shinn, Setsuna, Asemu, Bellri and Mikazuki.

And the ones without are Amuro, Kamille, Judau, Seabook (I'm assuming F91 counts as a main entry even if it's not a show), Garrod, Loran, Kira and Flit.

While Uso, Domon and Kio are kind of exceptions, since Domon wasn't in a war in the first place, but a sports tournament while Uso and Kio had virtual training but not military training as such.

So you have 8 without military training to 6 with it and 3 exceptions when confining it to main entries. I wouldn't say it's a lot personally, but it's a third of them and nearly as many with as without.

>>15007649
>My friend claims that the Gundam has a learning computer, and that at any time, they could've replaced Amuro, using the computer's data to replicate his skills. Is this true, or an exaggeration?
>>15007666
>exaggeration Cause even though the Gundam has a learning computer it can't pull off the precise movement amuro can
>>15007667
>Not with the pilots they had on the White Base, not at the same efficiency though. All of the other potential pilots were newbies as well and generally worse than Amuro. The computer learns attack patterns, not direct skills, you still need to pull off the actual thing.
To be fair, the Learning Computers data was used for the GM, allowing the EFF to create a decent Mobile Suit Core out of a large number of greenhorn pilots as opposed to Zeon's dwindling supply of veterans.

>>15006946
>Histories Greatest Monster
>That guy who willingly put himself in between a giant rock size of Texas
>That guy who tries to save the human race and the very government that despises him
>That guy who is one the most prolific newtype in history who believe in humanity above else
>Monster

>>15007716
The learning computer is a "Learning" Computer. It basically record every combat data the Gundam went trough and the Feds using it to basically install mini Amuro's inside all the feds GM. Fast Forward nearly 60years later Amuro Ray's combat data were used by the Jupiter Empire in an attempt to defeat the Federation

The thing 1v6 gundams including an older Judau Asta and beat the living crap of everyone cept for Tobia and Judau who manage to trick it and destroying it before it can be mass produced

>>15007743
Not quite, since Kira programmed the computer himself he still gets legit partial credit for whatever it does.

>>15008465
>spoilers
And just think, that was using only the core fighter's data on OYW Amuro.

>>15007080
>>15007118
>Teenager tech geek
>Forced into military ship and service out of circumstance
>Home blown to shit
>Have to figure out to use secret military death machine
>Day to day back to back fighting over a period of weeks, then months, brief respite in between battles
>Stuck on a ship with a bunch of nobodies, overbearing military guy, the school asshole, and a bunch of uppity refugees and children
>Everyone relies on you do it because noone else is good enough and likely everyone will be killed if your very small team fails
>If you're not fighting you have to help rebuild and repair the MS and the ship
>Start to develop fucking weird psychic powers and hear voices in your head
>Shitty hamburgers for dinner

That's a hard life

>>15006946
>"Oh I'm such an entitled baby all I do is pilot a war machine against my own will in a war I don't really believe in!"
kids these days

>>15007248
I can already guess his favorite anime from that.

>>15008666
>>15008785
Do you think that Amuro ever lays awake in bed, incapable of sleeping, thinking about all the people he killed? If they had family? If they had friends? If they were truly evil or just had the misfortune of being on the wrong side of the Gundam's Beam Saber?

>>15008392
>Ignoring the fact most GM aces were also Fighter Pilots.

>>15008465

> giant rock the size of Texas

I hope you're not referring to Axis here, because Axis isn't even close to that big. That's hyperbolic by orders of magnitude. Axis is maybe 12 or 14 miles wide at it's widest point. Austin, Texas alone is far bigger than that at something like 700 square kilometres. The university in Austin Texas is bigger even.

>>15006946
>Amuro Ray
>History's Greatest Monster

Butthurt zeek detected.

The OYW is over. Fuck off to Axis or something.

>>15009344
>12 or 14
>Texas alone is far bigger than that at something like 700 square kilometres.
Anon use the same units of measurement.
Axis is about 23 kilometers by your guess, and Texas is about 260,000 miles.

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>>15009302
He should have had such night at least once.

>>15009379

I used the first measurement I found online for Austin. The difference in measurements isn't enough to confuse most people as to the scope in size difference given the variance in numbers.

>>15009413
That's no excuse for inconsistent measurements.

>>15009478

Laziness isn't an excuse, it's a reason. It's not a good one, but it is still one. And not one I intend to rectify. Since I'm lazy.

>>15009398
FUCKS SAKE why does everybody in The Origin have such goddamn long faces?

>>15009527
they bred with horses

>>15009672
...That DOES explain why half of them can't walk properly.