Mobile Suit Gundam SEED and Destiny

>>15002046
>Gundam Uno
What Is It?

>>15002190
It's how 0079 is known by in Pablo's land.

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remember

Gundam (0079) is Showa stupidity
Gundam Seed is Heisei stupidity

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Firstly, why has this happened?

>>15002046
>I like the fights
Most of the fights in this show were Gundams flying around circles shooting their pew pew lasers, they couldn't deliver on any worthwhile action because everything was the same stock footage

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best gundam in CE universe.
not strike gundam or astray gundam

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mexican novel

>>15002046
>Instead of relative neutrality, they frame Kira and company as our peaceful heroes, Shin and the rest as misguided antagonists. Shin believes in the Destiny Program for no good reason. Kira has learned absolutely nothing from this journey.
This bugged me more than everything else wrong with Destiny.

You know those horrible fanfics where the author tries to 'fix' a series, by making their favorite character into an unstoppable Mary Sue who can do no wrong and wins at everything? That's the last quarter of Destiny.

Yet despite this, the writing is so sloppy that:
>Kira allows an international terrorist to get away away
>Said terrorist kills millions of people
>Kira sits back and does fuck all while ZAFT take out said terrorist

>>15003965
>not liking strike

fuck off outta here

>>15003943
I still think Kira was meant to be kill here and Shinn was meant to have taken over as MC.

But Kira sells more so he gets plot armor.

>>15003046
>Gundam (0079) is Showa stupidity
>Gundam Seed is Heisei stupidity

Translated into English ?

>>15005168
Anon might be referring to the first two eras of the Godzilla films.
Showa era Godzilla films were made between 1954–1975 (MSG came out in 1979).
Heisei era Godzilla films were made between 1984–1995 (SEED came out in 2002).

>>15005162
>Shinn was meant to have taken over as MC
I thought Shinn was still the MC at this point? Kira takes the MC role once he gets the King Hell God Emperor Freedom.

>>15005181
Kira sort of took over the moment he got vanilla freedom back.

>>15005064
These always make me laugh.

>>15005201
That's actually the point in the show where Shinn has the most focus. The initial 11 or so episodes are Athrun's show. It's during the earth battle stuff, most of them post-Kira getting back into Freedom, that Shinn gets most of his development and focus, and Athrun just stands around without doing anything for a long time.

Kira only gets about two episodes from his points of view (the one where he gets the Freedom and the one where he scouts Lacus to space) during this period..

>>15005277
Athrun's trying to be the mentor character, but he's messed up from the last war that he can't do it.

In fact, he really helps Shinn get worse.

>>15005158

Oh yeah. It's kinda fun reading those at times, especially when those fanfics begin shaping up how the community views the show itself. Stuff like Ranma's mother being obsessed with having grandchildren, or Konoha residents routinely beating the living shit out of Naruto before the story starts. Like, it's amazing how the lines blur at times and people will recite fanfic over canon.

Destiny just feels like it didn't realize what it was saying, implying or how it came off. The whole mess you mentioned? Considering that in the manga Kira tries to shoot down the shuttle too, how in SRW Z they say if people die as a result of his actions then Kira's hands aren't clean, or even Saji's arc in 00s2 over the A-Laws slaughtering Katharon guys because of him, I can't help but feel that this became the moment a lot of people just went "fuck this guy."

>>15005162

No. At that point they were well aware Kira was going to survive to pilot Strike Freedom (which had first been advertised in magazines around episode 20ish, well before hand) and anime production schedules mean it's impossible for them to change their mind and redo episode 35 to have several scenes showing his survival in a weeks time.

At no point in Destiny did they ever seriously consider killing Kira off. They DID think about it during production of Seed, but that was decided against well before the end of production of the series, and long before Destiny was even an concept.

>>15006099
>anime production schedules
Is there any truth to the rumor that, towards the end of the series, they were so far behind schedule that they had to deliver the tapes to the TV studio less than hour before the episodes were due to air?
I agree with the rest of your post.

>>15005875
>Destiny just feels like it didn't realize what it was saying, implying or how it came off.
Then there are the fans who just swallow what the show presents without realizing what it really implies.
I have an acquaintance who LOVED Kira coming back and becoming the MC of Destiny. Because the show suddenly treated everything Kira did as being 'the right thing to do', he also believed that everything Kira did was right (kidnapping the leader of a sovereign nation, turning up to battles he wasn't involved in and shooting at both sides, the letting-Djibril-get-away incident).
Said acquaintance excuses the Djibril incident, yet somehow developed enough mental gymnastics to condemn Shinn and Saji for similar events.

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>>15003965
good fucking taste

>>15006208
>Said acquaintance excuses the Djibril incident, yet somehow developed enough mental gymnastics to condemn Shinn and Saji for similar events.

I know the type. Kira can do no wrong while Celestial Being are mass murderers for doing the exact same thing. 00 even points out that for the most part, CB doesn't kill unless it is viewed as necessary.

> Ahh, but Kira lets people walk away. It's insane for 4 guys to think they can change the world. Saji joining CB makes no sense.

And this is a guy who thought SEED was the best series.

>>15005168
Japanese calendar system works off of the current emperor Showa era was Hirohito's time as emperor when he died and the new emperor got enthroned it switched to the heisei era it's used in media to compare older versions of things from their newer variations I.E. Showa Godzilla and heisei Godzilla or Showa riders and heisei riders

>>15006208
>Is there any truth to the rumor that, towards the end of the series, they were so far behind schedule that they had to deliver the tapes to the TV studio less than hour before the episodes were due to air?

I've never heard of that one. But the original episode 41, the clip show that's just Kira and Athrun recapping the last 5 episodes or so was done because they were so far behind they would miss deadline if they didn't toss in a clipshow they made the day before. Apparantly they had to call in Kira and Athrun's VAs last minute too.

It wasn't even on the original schedule listed about a month prior. And sure enough it was the only recap ep that Remaster cut out.

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Shinn was a good girl

>>15005284
>Athrun has doubts about his role in Orb
>Runs back to ZAFT, now has doubts about his role in ZAFT
>Too messed up mentally to mentor Shinn properly

>Athrun resolves his doubts about his role in Orb
>Never joins ZAFT
>Never mentors Shinn at all

Athrun was never going to mentor Shinn, issues or not.
It bugs me that some fans, and the show itself, treat Athrun beating Shinn in the finale as a wise mentor putting his wayward student in place. In reality, Athrun was never a good mentor to Shinn (for understandable reasons). Likewise, Shinn had no reason to have doubts about fighting/killing Athrun, the writers just needed an excuse for Shinn to be crippled by PTSD.

>>15007073
>Likewise, Shinn had no reason to have doubts about fighting/killing Athrun, the writers just needed an excuse for Shinn to be crippled by PTSD.

That he at least had reason for. Regardless of his shitty mentoring, Shinn knew deep down Athrun wasn't a bad person, thanks to him trying to saving him way back in Armory one, and risking almost certain death trying to lessen the Junius Seven damage even a bit more.

So Shinn being told out of the blue that he's an evil Logos spy and must be killed understandably shakes him up.

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>>15007073
Did Athrun even tell Shinn the pilot of the Freedom was his friend? I'm having a bit of a memory lapse here. People give Shinn hell for acting cocky after taking Kira out and taking out Athrun, but that's ignoring a bunch of crap.

> Kira's actions up until that point were terrorist in nature. He wasn't innocent and the Minerva going after the Archangel wasn't evil. It's him facing the consequences of antagonizing a military faction.
> Kira had also killed members of the Minerva to save Orb soldiers. You'd think more of the Minerva would give him hell for that. But no, Athrun just gets to rant about how great Kira was presumably in front of friends of the people he's killed.
> The show constantly shifts tone on the Shinn/Athrun dynamic. Sometimes Shinn is respectful to Athrun, other times they're at each other's throats. Yet people give Shinn hell for trying to kill his "friend." It makes sense that Shinn would listen to Rey and Durandal over him, because he's on better terms with them. Never mind to Shinn's knowledge, Athrun was pulling shady shit.
> How much of Athrun's advice ends up being hypocritical? "War isn't about being a hero" says the guy who changes sides to suit his morality. Even DWG2 called him out on being self-righteous and he gained a reputation for being untrustworthy among the Japanese.

Sigh. The sad part was Athrun was one of my favorite characters in SEED, one I felt the series didn't ruin (Kira after he gets the Freedom) or kill off (Natarle and Flay). Not the best, that would be Yzak, but a character I still liked. Then Destiny fucking happened.

>>15007171

He does but Shinn never really seems to care or react to it, which is fair enough since he's got no reason to like Kira, but you'd think he wouldn't tell Athrun that he expects him to be happy he killed his friend. Especially when Athrun at first just tries to bite his tongue and leave the room without saying anything but Shinn follows and demands Athrun praise him for his win, and gets pissy when he doesn't.

However I guess it's possible Shinn just assumed they were former allies in a military business sense only and not that the pilot was Athrun's close personal childhood friend.

Still though the crew of Minerva show an unusual lack of interest in the fact that the legendary saviors from the last war are opposing them.

>>15007209
>Shinn follows and demands Athrun praise him for his win, and gets pissy when he doesn't
IIRC, Shinn said he wanted to 'avenge' Athrun's defeat, when Freedom turned the Savior into chop suey. Still, Shinn was letting the victory go to his head during that scene, which I imagine was the whole point (Rey/Gil inflating his ego, to turn Shinn into their loyal attack dog).

>>15005158
Here's the thing. I think the best way to view Destiny is to take it's whole message of "question your leaders instead of blindly following them" to heart. Don't just go along with what the show's narrative tells you. If you find what Kira and his friends are doing so questionable, then that's good. I personally view him as a fallen hero because of Destiny. You're doing the thing the show wants you to do, rather than just blindly eating up the story that they are the saviors of the Cosmic Era. In a way the seemingly hypocritical nature of the story actually reinforces the intended moral, just there are still people missed the point, mindlessly parroting the moral while not thinking about the implications of the Archangel's actions.

I don't really like this though and it doesn't win me over to saying Destiny is a 10/10. It feels too... easy. Like this excuses a bunch of the show's plotholes and the weaknesses of the writing under a blanket response of "you're supposed to question whether Kira is doing the right thing." Not all, but a bunch of them. It's like saying G-Reco is intentionally difficult to understand, but I'm willing to give Tomino more slack than the guy who said

>After all, anime's war is only a fashion. I read newspapers like Mainichi and Asahi, but anime isn't really serious. They call it "anti-war discussion", but can't comprehend it because it's hard. With my son, I only discuss war on the level that it is bad

And that the message of SEED was

> If it's boring, please turn off the channel. Isn't it funny when people still watch it even after they call it boring. *laughs*

>>15006293
>Apparantly they had to call in Kira and Athrun's VAs last minute too.

That had to be annoying for them, especially if they had other plans at that time.

>>15007272
>Like this excuses a bunch of the show's plotholes and the weaknesses of the writing under a blanket response of "you're supposed to question whether Kira is doing the right thing."
>>15005875
>Destiny just feels like it didn't realize what it was saying, implying or how it came off.

Given the shitty writing, especially in the second half, I'd argue that this message is there, but completely unintentionally.

Kira and his team did nothing wrong.
When you have a war that involves two sides who, at the end of the day, aren't so different to each other, then someone from the outside has to step in.

Yes, many of his actions would be labeled as unjust, but those are the risks you have to take.

>>15007728
>Kira and his team did nothing wrong.
>many of his actions would be labeled as unjust
I don't understand how you're able to contradict yourself in only three lines.

>>15007737
More like I can see both sides, but if that comes off as a contradict then so be it.

>>15007728

I think you worded that wrong. What you probably meant is that some of his actions could be labeled as harsh or cruel.

>>15007985
Maybe I did.

>>15007994
See, this is what we were talking about. You're saying Kira did nothing wrong, giving a reason why they were justified. But do you really understand what you're condoning? Terrorism, theft, kidnapping, use of illegal weapons, spying on everyone, never attempting diplomacy and ultimately becoming world police. A group like Kira's would be scary as hell in real life, not too far removed from Celestial Being.

And even your justification falls flat. Kira wasn't trying to break up the war, he was fighting for Orb's sake.

>>15009204

Funny thing is Kira and co do talk about being afraid the war is gonna turn out like Seed again and they have to stop it, complete with Kira getting Le Cruset flashbacks, but nothing really comes of that and they continue to prioritize getting Orb on their side.

>>15009204

I don't think anyone is suggesting Team Kira didn't do alot of illegal stuff, but that doesn't make them evil by default either.

Celestial Being turned out to be the heroes to save the day in the end despite being a very illegal terrorist group. Same with the Wing boys, AEUG, Kira and co in the first Seed, in fact Gundam shows where the good guys aren't a bunch of renegades seems to be the minority.

Should we use meme magic to make that third SEED series concept from a couple of threads ago happen?

>>15009423
Stargazer was sick

Stargazer Enterprise when

>>15002046
Still a better series than 00

>>15009437
Stargazer was an OVA, I mean an actual third season or even movie. I might post what stuff I had down so far for it

>>15009447
If I have to hear that pink haired cunt sing one more time I will blow my fucking brains out.

If there is another season there better be a solid fucking timeskip

>>15009449
That is what I envisioned actually. The basics are this

>Takes place in CE 99
>Main character is on quest to find his parents
>during this a huge war is going on that's been sparked by a new rebel faction
>Main character joins said rebel faction
>Main's name is Hikaru Bannou
>at around halfway through the series a bombshell is dropped as to who Hikaru really is and what his actual motivations are
>First suit he uses is the Strike Drei, suit is capable of producing afterimages that have their own mass.
>First suit is destroyed when it's shot down in the air and sinks to the bottom of a lake
>Mid season upgrade uses a new incredibly volatile weapon known as the Icarus system, as well as dragoon swords that can all be directed at single targets
>Another suit developed using the same system is introduced, suit is known as the Gundam Everlease/Iblis
>Final battle sees Hikaru fight to the death with Kira until both their MSes are destroyed and they have to resort to hand to hand combat while in a frozen wasteland

>>15002046
>From what I heard
Well at least you're admitting you haven't seen it.
SEED does have a lot of call-backs to the original Mobile Suit Gundam, but calling it a remake is ridiculous. Yes, it has
>mono-eye attacks secret mobile suit installation in neutral colony
>masked enemy commander
>civilian drafted to operate Gundam
>inexperienced crew with "You're highest rank so you're captain now"
>asteroid base with asshole commander
>re-entry battle
>desert arc with cool enemy commander
>federation uses protag ship as a decoy
>federation rolls out MP versions of protag's first Gundam
>WMD lasers
And that's about it.
Kira's best friend being in the enemy faction, the entire premise of genetic engineering, the resultant situation of everyone seeing the protag as "one of them", Fllay's manipulations, Lacus's political activism, everything about Orb and the Astray line, the politics behind Morgenroete developing the Gundams for the federation, the politics behind (and social ramifications of) the N-Jammers, the bio-cpu or whatever the first extended were called, the connection between Rau and Kira, and probably several other things that I'm forgetting...none of that is even remotely hinted at in Mobile Suit Gundam. There are FAR more differences than similarities, the "it's just a remake" is the battle-cry of UC purists who want to trivialize the success of SEED.

That said, the inclusion of cut-and-paste copies of UC mobile suits in Destiny was utter bullshit. Destiny did rip a bunch of pages from Zeta's plot, maybe more so than SEED did with MSG, but still calling it a remake is a really big stretch.

>>15009606
>calling it a remake is a really big stretch
I'd call SEED a '21st century reimaging of MSG'.
UC purists will call that a con, but personally, I see it as a solid base to delve into all of the aspects that you mentioned.

I'm not sure if you could make the same comparison between Destiny and Zeta, if only because Destiny turned into a train wreck at one point, yet the train just kept going.

>>15009866
This was a pretty stupid move from Shinn.
Sure, he didn't know that much about Kira and Athrun's relationship, but you still shouldn't gloat about a victory.

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no incest

>>15007171
> The show constantly shifts tone on the Shinn/Athrun dynamic.

So IT IS just like any Tomino Gundam ever made?

>>15010692
Athrun should be able to keep his emotions in check, and if he had anything to say about anyone not liking, or wanting to take down the Freedom, he missed that chance when he decided that he would rather mope around the ship than try to develop any relationships with any of his crew.

It wasn't that long ago when Athrun was preaching to Shinn about how he shouldn't have had any pity towards Stella, since she's the enemy! So where does Athrun get off being mad at Shinn for taking down Freedom?

Even if Shinn didn't have a personal stake in it, it doesn't change the fact that they were ordered to take down the Archangel anyway! So what, were they not going to do it, because Athrun says not to?

And here's the kicker! If Athrun was so worried about Shinn taking down the Freedom, he could have just used his FAITH badge to commandeer the Impulse before Shinn even got out there and tried to do something about it from there.

Man, this show is a fucking trainwreck.
>>15012343
Try harder.

>>15009866
Shinn a shit

>>15012442
>Athrun should be able to keep his emotions in check

He did. He kept his mouth shut and tried to leave without saying anything. Shinn chased him down and insisted he should be happy about his win and demanded praise, which started the whole fight.

>>15012928
Athrun was standing with everyone else. If he was that upset, he should have stayed in his room.

Even if, he has no right after all his preaching about not letting your emotions get the better of you.

>>15012928
>Shinn chased him down and insisted he should be happy about his win and demanded praise, which started the whole fight.
I thought Shinn wanted praise from Athrun, because the former thought he was avenging the latter's defeat at the hands of the Freedom about ten episodes prior. Athrun didn't say much about his prior history with the pilot of the Freedom, so Shinn had little reason to expect Athrun being upset about what happened. This doesn't EXCUSE Shinn's gloating, but it does explain his behavior before and after getting slugged.

>>15012442
Athrun never used that badge, did he?

>>15012297
Destiny ruined Cagalli so hard. She didn't even get to shine in her custom mobile suit gifted from her 'father'.

>>15009408
>I don't think anyone is suggesting Team Kira didn't do alot of illegal stuff, but that doesn't make them evil by default either.
The Clyne Faction is the 'least worse' option of the three main powers in Destiny, the problem is one of perception. The show expects us to treat them as do-no-wrong heroes, and overlook some of their shadier actions, and the problems those actions cause (kidnapping Cagalli creates a power vacuum in Orb that puts the Seirans in charge, Archangel's interference leading to Djibril getting away, etc.). Most of the anti-Kira/Lacus backlash could've been avoided if Lacus was presented as an amoral leader/politician with very good PR, like Durandal, or arguably Lelouch.

>>15014898
>I thought Shinn wanted praise from Athrun, because the former thought he was avenging the latter's defeat at the hands of the Freedom about ten episodes prior. Athrun didn't say much about his prior history with the pilot of the Freedom, so Shinn had little reason to expect Athrun being upset about what happened.
Can't be. During the scene where Shinn and Rey are devising ideas on how to fight the Freedom, Athrun has an argument with them and insists that Kira and the Freedom isn't their enemy. He even refers to Kira by name and not just as the Freedom. Athrun is clearly being upset about Shinn and Rey planning battle tactics against the Freedom.

>>15012442
>It wasn't that long ago when Athrun was preaching to Shinn about how he shouldn't have had any pity towards Stella, since she's the enemy! So where does Athrun get off being mad at Shinn for taking down Freedom?

Just another part of Athrun being a hypocrite.

>>15014928
I forgot about that. Okay, Shinn's just being a little shit then.

Still, you'd think Athrun would use that FAITH badge of his at some point.

>>15014898
>The Clyne Faction is the 'least worse' option of the three main powers in Destiny, the problem is one of perception. The show expects us to treat them as do-no-wrong heroes, and overlook some of their shadier actions, and the problems those actions cause (kidnapping Cagalli creates a power vacuum in Orb that puts the Seirans in charge, Archangel's interference leading to Djibril getting away, etc.). Most of the anti-Kira/Lacus backlash could've been avoided if Lacus was presented as an amoral leader/politician with very good PR, like Durandal, or arguably Lelouch.

Heck, I'd be more willing to accept them as is if the show would stress the correlation more. Have Kira be this attempted paragon, but also don't shy away from the consequences of his actions.

This is a reoccuring problem I have with Fukuda-Gundam, where they try to set up this moral ambiguity but then the plot twists itself into comic book heroics. SEED said people had no reason to fight while ignoring the actual reasons why the war broke out (provided by the official timeline), instead trying to say it was all racism. The war ends up being set up by Liquid Snake so that mankind will be wiped out, and then in Destiny it's shadowy conspiracies that caused it rather than "The issues weren't resolved in the last war and continued to be a problem that needed to be addressed". You have Lacus/Kira doing some questionable shit, but the show tries to paint anyone who disagrees with them misguided. It's almost like SEED should be stamped by the Comics Code Authority after a certain point when it spent it's first part trying to be morally ambiguous.

>>15016670
delete this

>>15016384
Shitty subs

>>15005162
But Kira 2.0 did die.
Lacus released Kira 3.0.

>>15002046

> Gundam Seed Destiny starts out as a remake of Gundam Seed, disguised as a sequel.

For all it's faults I don't think that's accurate. It becomes a shallow retread of the already pretty shallow SEED in it's later stages, but it doesn't start off as one.

> but too much is familiar. Athrun is back with ZAFT and fighting against Kira, Kira is still trying to force peace

These two things never happened at the same time in SEED for instance. By the time Kira is trying to force peace (not that he's nearly as bad about it in SEED as in Destiny) Athrun has left ZAFT and is looking to join him after only an episode or two.

> Shin loses a friend and a lover (you don't believe either relationship, but regardless...)

I'm pretty sure Stella was supposed to be someone Shinn viewed as a surrogate younger sister to replace his dead one, and her death is supposed to be like losing her all over again. Not a friend or lover.

> He's like an anime Superman, powerful and virtuous, but narrow-minded and immature
> Superman
> narrow-minded and immature

Those aren't two descriptors I normally see next to Superman.

>

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Shinn best guy

Kira is the best gundam MC

>>15005875
Excuse me, Sir, but you are stubborn!

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I'll be honest, I really enjoyed both SEED and SEED Destiny, and I consider that they are my favorite Gundam series. But man, they are flawed as hell (especially SEED Destiny).

But what I enjoy out from that is seeing all these threads about SEED Destiny, and people pointing out all the different views and problems it had. And also these threads teach me more of what happened during it's production and behind the scenes tensions.

So thank you for these threads.

>>15005064
Mexicans can read and write now? When did this happen?

>>15002046
A series that was written as a fanfiction writers wet dream of author self-inserts, with plot created by someone suffering from a brain tumor, has issues with the story?!

SHOCKING! THE PEOPLE WILL GO ABSOLUTELY MAD FROM THIS REVELATION, I SAY!!!

>>15018232
Careful with those buzz-words. You could swarm yourself.

>>15014898
>kidnapping Cagalli creates a power vacuum in Orb that puts the Seirans in charge
To be fair, the Seirans were basically already running Orb since Cagalli had a Morosawa-related personality and competence removal somewhere along the way, at the very least post-Junius Seven drop.

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Seed is like a hentai

>shit animation
>shit voice acting
>high-tier tomino-esque autism

>people still like, and are willing to talk about SEED

why

>>15017892
good taste anon

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chaos deserved better

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>>15019468
I don't understand how Luna is essentially a stick figure, compared to what we got (>>15019172) in SEED.

Fan art does Luna far better justice than the show itself ever did.

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>>15021177
here

>do nothing wrong
>still get shit on all the time
Being Shinn is suffering.

>>15020406
Thank you, anon.

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King of Cuck

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>>15021719
>Cuck

>>15020445
i agree

>>15022238
>Slept with Talia during his first night onboard the Minerva
>Talia is married with a son at that point
Now if Kira cock blocked Gil from hooking up with Talia, then you'd have an argument.

>>15023899
He needed a reminder of that Talia ass.

>>15023899
>>15023981
Talia was an slut

I like it.

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>>15021177
Luna is such a beauty.

>>15025351
That's good to hear!

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>>15023899
Lacus a cunt

>>15027984
>At here, we can see the Ultimate Coordinator growing a third hand, to improve his bitch slapping prowess

Destiny was not as bad as people say. People only trash it because it had a lot of potential to be good, the problems are narrative inconsistencies, characters acting stupid for no reason, a really weak main character and my personal biggest peeve, the most skewed battles ever, i gave it a 4/10

>>15026581
Luna is muh Athrun

>>15030102
This. Destiny wouldn't generate as much discussion more than a decade later if it was just irredeemly shit.

>>15007728
>but those are the risks you have to take.

Then why are Kira and Lacus the only ones allowed to take those risks?

Why is it when Kira does something horrendously wrong, he's just a well-intentioned good guy "taking risks" to do the right thing, but Shinn/Rey/Durandal/ZAFT as a whole take the exact same kinds of risks, it instantly makes them evil?

How are the Archangel characters any more moral or justified than the other characters they're attacking?

Why are you such a bigoted crock of shit, Anon?

>>15031734
Destiny always generates discussion because it's bottom of the barrel shit that transcends into subdimensions of shit. It's not irredeemably shit; it's profoundly and unbelievably shit. People still trash the show not just because it's bad, but because it's an ongoing postmortem into understanding how it manages to be so bad. It also had to do with how Fukuda--more than other Gundam director by far--continuously pumps out new versions of the same shit to come up with new excuses blindingly defend his self-insert characters in retrospect (i.e. adding to its atrocity).

It's the kind of narrative mess that leaves you scratching your head trying to understand how could this have been produced by a professional studio with a AAA budget, by grown adults, and none of them seemed to realize the mindboggling hypocrisy they were spewing on screen. It would be one thing if "heroes" were intentionally supposed to make you feel ambivalent like >>15014898 , but that was never the case at the end of the show. The SEED cast are clean as a whistle golden age heroes with trendy J-Pop themes and awesome victory poses you're supposed to be rooting for all of the way, and everyone else in the show are just savage sacks of garbage standing in their way who you're supposed to think deserve to be pummeled into submission.

You could TRY to make shit that was as awful as this, but even that would be an improvement by default because the whole tone deafness would be intentional.

>>15031817
>everyone else in the show are just savage sacks of garbage standing in their way who you're supposed to think deserve to be pummeled into submission

I've once discussed Destiny with someone, who said something like
>Kira is so amazing, the way he disarms all of his opponents without killing them, unlike that angry faggot Shinn
then about thirty seconds later said
>Kira should have killed that idiot when he had the chance
The show, and some of its die-hard fans, exhibit an astounding lack of self-awareness.

That being said, it's a good litmus test when dealing with mecha fans. Anyone who thought Kira was 100% justified and in the right at the end of Destiny probably lacks the ability to see things beyond basic appearances, and will likely be easily duped later in life. Of course, replace "Kira" with "Durandal" in that previous sentence, and it still holds, I just haven't seen anyone seriously argue Durandal was justified like I've seen many people argue Kira was justified (>>15007728).

>>15031794
>but Shinn/Rey/Durandal/ZAFT as a whole take the exact same kinds of risks, it instantly makes them evil?

Because they are?
Maybe not Shinn, because he was basically being used by Rey and Durandal, but those two knew exactly what they were doing.

And Durandal wasn't even that bad originally, it's only when he revealed the Destiny Plan to everyone that he was considered the enemy.

>>15032103
It bugs me that Durandal revealed the Destiny Plan before he had actually wiped out any potential opposition (Orb and Lacus). All of his other plans work brilliantly, and get the world wrapped around his finger, but said plans just go retarded whenever the pink-haired one is involved, almost like she thwarts them just by existing.

>>15031817

> Destiny always generates discussion because it's bottom of the barrel shit that transcends into subdimensions of shit. It's not irredeemably shit; it's profoundly and unbelievably shit

If that was the only reason people would still be discussing AGE. Instead most people grew bored of discussing it mid show and what discussion there was by the end stopped almost as soon as the show finished. It's close to a decade newer than SEED or Destiny, yet gets a fraction if the discussion.

>>15032100

> I just haven't seen anyone seriously argue Durandal was justified

There's been avoid few people over the years have argued it in my experience. You can claim none of them were serious, but many of them get awfully contentious for people apparently not serious in their argument.

>>15032103

> And Durandal wasn't even that bad originally, it's only when he revealed the Destiny Plan to everyone that he was considered the enemy

Viewers were calling Durandal as the main villain since literally the first episode. Not just because he had Char's VA either, though that certainly helped, but because he spent a good bit of his screen time giving sly eyes and because even in the first episode he's the prime candidate for orchestrating the Gundam theft. A candidacy that didn't lose steam over time since no one else is ever suggested as the possible source.

>>15032103
>but those two knew exactly what they were doing.

Based on what? The fact they were retaliating against a genocidal enemy and they don't agree with Kira's "Hurrr preach peace and understanding and it will go away on its own" mentality?

>>15032197
>A candidacy that didn't lose steam over time since no one else is ever suggested as the possible source.

Djibril.

Djibril orchestrated the Gundam hijacking that killed ZAFT personnel so Djibril's faction could start out with Gundams. If that explanation is too normal for you and it MUST wrap up into some larger conspiracy, then I have no fucking clue why you're not also insisting the Gundam jacking at the beginning of SEED must have been secretly orchestrated by someone on the Earth side, or Lacus stealing SF and IJ later in Destiny must have been orchestrated by Durandal in a nonsensical gambit against his own supposed evil scheme.

>>15032419

There's a pretty important difference between the theft at the start of SEED and the theft at the start of Destiny that you appear to be forgetting: the one at the start of SEED was a full on attack and theft, while that in Destiny is a black ops hijacking with no explicit attack until after the units were already used.

In SEED, ZAFT coordinate a battleship and mobile suit attack on Heliopolis with a ground team that have infiltrated the colony, and even then the ground team have to intercept the Gundams mid-transit, very publicly killing a large contingent of guards in a battle before they can get the Gundams. And the Strike is there with the other Gundams. Kira just gets to it with Murrue before Rusty can since he dies in the battle to take the Gundams. The battle is so big it endangers the whole colony.

In Destiny the three Extended not only infiltrate the base the units are stored at, but have inside help to do so, being picked up and transported on to the base by base personnel. Once they're there they have the access codes for both the hanger the units are in as well as for the Gundams themselves (GUNDAMs I guess). There is no public battle, and the only people they kill are the people directly guarding/working on the units. Not only is Impulse conveniently stored away from them while Shinn is reporting for duty at just the time the units are being stolen but the three Extended aren't even aware Impulse exists and think there's only 3 GUNDAMs to steal.

It'd be flat out impossible for Djibril to do all that without some high ranking inside help to get him the base escort and codes. So no, I don't believe for even one second it was him. There's a reason Durandal was presented as shady even in the very first episode, and it's because he's by far the most likely candidate for orchestrating the Gundam theft and kicking off the conflict within Destiny.

>>15032554
>>15032419

Ok seriously the Earth Alliance who were infamous for launching nukes. Creates a state of the art warship with cloaking features sneak past the entire ZAFT defenses hijacks the Gundams.

Why the hell did they not launch nukes and knock out a massive part of the ZAFT Military again?

>>15032564

Because it was a black ops operation and launching nukes would only complicate it and make it more prone to failure? And they wanted better technology so they could launch nukes using said technology with greater chances of success later. They held off on nuking now to nuke later.

>>15032574

How the hell would it complicate things to launch nukes after they had retrieved the new mobile suits, The ZAFT military was in complete disarray now was the time to strike and deal one hell of a blow they most likely would not be able to afford.

>>15032583

Well for one thing mirage colloid has a timer on it's use as far as I know, so it could only stay invisible for so long and would have to make itself visible and leave before that time ran out, or at least close to it. For another, you can't activate mirage colloid and phase shift at the same time. So even if they stayed invisible following the theft and unit retrieval to launch nukes, then all ZAFT would have to do is track the nukes and they could destroy the Girty Lue. And even if they got a wave or two off before the tracking and after retrieval ZAFT has proven pretty good at shooting down incoming nukes. They've done so in far greater numbers than one ship is likely to be able to put at one time before. Unless they had an entire fleet of invisible ships attacking without warning or maybe even invisible nukes (which may be impossible since we don't know the limits on size for mirage colloid weapons to my knowledge) then it's just not a good way to attack.

Durandal's plan seemed to be:
>Let the EA/Logos attack first, so they look like assholes.
>Build good PR by acting diplomatically: Don't retaliate, only deploy forces in 'self defence', and provide aid to war victims, regardless of Natural/Coordinator status.
>At some point, eliminate Kira/Lacus, to prevent them from interfering.
>Piss off Djibril, so he continues to look like an asshole.
>Unveil the truth about Logos, and watch the general public turn on them.
>With the general public now on your side and willing to accept you as their leader, wipe out Djibril and any other opposition.
>Become the beloved and unopposed ruler of all of mankind.
>Unleash the Destiny Plan.

>>15032419
>Kira's "Hurrr preach peace and understanding and it will go away on its own" mentality?
Durandal's plan appears largely independent of Kira's philosophy. The latter is simply a potential obstacle that Gil wanted out of the way, which didn't happen because Shinn sucks at stabbing cockpits. Kira's mistakes are assuming:
(1) The fact that he beat ZAFT via military force justifies his philosophy.
(2) That his philosophy would fix the problems that ultimately allow psychos like Azrael/Djibril/Durandal to gain power in the first place, short of Kira strongarming foes into submission.

>>15032419
>The fact they were retaliating against a genocidal enemy and they don't agree with Kira's "Hurrr preach peace and understanding and it will go away on its own" mentality?

Pretty much.

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>>15032554
>>15032554
>but have inside help to do so, being picked up and transported on to the base by base personnel.

But what are you basing this on? How do you know for an indisputable fact that they were helped by secret Durandal plants, and that's the only likely explanation? We see the Extendeds being transported by nobodies in ZAFT uniforms. Said nobodies open all the doors with programmed pass cards that could be stolen/looted/cloned a million different ways, not through obscure input codes that only *~secret elite insiders~* could have memorized.

Halfway through SEED, Athrun's team sneaks onto Orb dressed up as Earth techs with fake IDs and go snooping around the hangar. Does that suddenly mean, oh my God, Athrun was an EA insider all along? Were his team sleeper agents for Azrael the entire time? No. It means they're spies using a disguise.

>>15032554
> Not only is Impulse conveniently stored away from them while Shinn is reporting for duty at just the time the units are being stolen but the three Extended aren't even aware Impulse exists and think there's only 3 GUNDAMs to steal.
For fuck's sake. The first episode of SEED starts with Athrun attacking a colony where his long lost best friend JUST HAPPENS to be also living, and said best friend JUST HAPPENS to wind up piloting the only unstolen Gundam opposing him. Are you so fucking caught up in trying to villainize Durandal that you don’t know what you’re watching anymore? You're taking melodramatic turns of fate that this show loves throwing out ALL THE TIME and forcefully trying to say this one time in Destiny--and at no other time--there must be a deliberate evil conspiracy afoot.

>So no, I don't believe for even one second it was him.
Of course you don't, because admitting it would take the wind out of your sails and cripple your argument justifying Kira's actions.

>Durandal was presented as shady even in the very first episode
How?

>and it's because he's by far the most likely candidate for orchestrating the Gundam theft and kicking off the conflict within Destiny.
And there you go making outrageous claims with nothing to back it up again.

>>15032675
>>15032675
Lacus's plan seemed to be:
>Leave a massive power vacuum at the end of SEED and hide yourself from the public eye while you know an unstable leadership will take over.
>Likewise do nothing while Orb reels from Uzumi's mass suicide knowing Cagalli is emotionally incapable of doing jack shit on her own
>Wait for the first new conflict to break out on either side
>Use your established extensive Terminal connections and secretive chain of command to steal some new suits and perform a false flag assassination attempt against yourself to frame the other side, knowing your lapdog superhuman husbando with the shiny new illegal nuclear weapon you rebuilt him will never allow the attempt to actually succeed.
>Send your friends (i.e. manipulated cronies) into war under the pretense that they're just trying to keep the peace and they were shot at first.
>Your sporadic actions cause the war to escalate even faster
>Orb goes to shit and needs your shady underground help
>ZAFT goes to shit and needs your shady underground help
>When someone does something to villainize YOU (editing news feeds, labeling you as dangerous and unpredictable extremists, trying to arrest one of your other cronies for questioning), fall back on a lazy catch-22 by saying it proves they were conspiring against you to begin with.
>Continue to hide under a fraudulent guise of neutrality until the war ends with Side A completely eliminating Side B for you.
>Come up with flimsy physical evidence out of nowhere to plant all of the world's hatred on Side A's only remaining leader
>Send in lapdog husbando to assassinate that guy.
>All of the cards fall into your deck. You take over space with a PR spin making you out to be an avenging hero who would never harm a fly. Your cronies take over Earth through Orb being the only Earth government left.

See that? I can pull conspiracy theories out of my ass to sloppily retcon Lacus as the main villain, too. That doesn't make either of us right.

>>15033514

> How do you know for an indisputable fact that they were helped by secret Durandal plants

I don't know for indisputable fact. Nor did I ever claim to. Only that the fact they did have those things indicates likely inside help and that together with other things makes him the most likely suspect.

> and that's the only explanation

Then provide another explanation for how even low level nobodies would have access cards to the Gundam hanger.

> Halfway through SEED, Athrun's team sneaks onto Orb dressed up as Earth techs with fake IDs and go snooping around the hanger

Hey remember all the sensitize and top secret data they found while in Orb? Yea, me neither. They struggled just to confirm that the Archangel was even there and saw absolutely nothing of value because their disguises and IDs could only get them so far. The only reason they even knew the Archangel was there in the end was because they happened to run in to Kira.

>>15033516

> melodramatic convenience

The Impulse being stored elsewhere was only one piece of evidence, that on it's own wouldn't mean shit. Not even when put with Shinn just happening to have orders to be on duty just when the theft is happening. It's only really incriminating put with other evidence.

> cripple your argument justifying Kira's action

Never mind such an argument, don't intend to start. You can take your strawman elsewhere.

> How? (referring to Durandal's shadiness in episode 1)

He had Char's VA, he constantly made squinty eyes and looked like he was planning something, he showed no real shock at the explosions on the base and his conversation with Cagalli was fairly loaded with undercurrents that he wasn't being entirely straight.

> but that's not incriminating

No, it isn't. Hence why I used the word shady. And if you go back and check message boards from 2005 just after episode 1 aired you'll see people commenting on all those and how they think he's the big villain. Which was my main point.

>>15033613

> outrageous claims with nothing to back it up

Besides the stuff I listed and that you dismissed you mean? It's all circumstantial evidence, and it's more than there is for anyone else. Including Djibril. Who you'd need a fairly complex conspiracy theory to implicate too by the way, since you'd have to explain how he got sensitive information and explain why he ensured debris would fall to Earth and so on.

>>15033525

Lacus could have taken over the Plants at the end of SEED since she had just as much public support then as at the end of Destiny. You don't need to invoke any of that conspiracy to explain it, you need a conspiracy to explain why she refused. Her taking over is still stupid, but it'd have been stupid and possible at the end of SEED with the exact same result regardless.

>>15033617
>Including Djibril. Who you'd need a fairly complex conspiracy theory to implicate too by the way, since you'd have to explain how he got sensitive information and explain why he ensured debris would fall to Earth and so on.

But that's the point I was making. Djibril takes just as much strenuously connecting dots and mentally bending over backwards to say he's the show's villainous mastermind as it does for Durandal, yet you're still sticking to your guns Durandal is the "only likely" candidate. Because Kira says so.

You know what, though? Fuck that. There's situations in the show where it's MORE easy to say Djibril was the one conspiring all of the other sides under his thumb that it is for Durandal. Orb gets invaded at the end of the show because it's turned into a safehaven for escaped war criminals. We know Djibril manipulated this because we know for a fact Djibril heads LOGOS, we know for a fact LOGOS are the shadowy organization putting the Seirans in power, and we know for a fact the Seirans are what drives Orb to become a belligerent anti-PLANT shitshow in the war. But we're supposed to believe Durandal was actually the one manipulating Orb all along and that justifies adding a retroactive evil smirk in the SE versions, because... Durandal tricked Cagalli into letting the Seirans take over? Did he put one of his secret agents in Orb to persuade Cagalli that we never see and the show never even alludes to? Did he use psychic powers to brainwash Cagalli into making all of the stupidest decisions possible that he knew would drag Orb into war? What?

>>15033613
>No, it isn't. Hence why I used the word shady. And if you go back and check message boards from 2005 just after episode 1 aired you'll see people commenting on all those and how they think he's the big villain. Which was my main point.

And I guarantee you I can dig up Gundam 00 posts from 2009 where people were speculating Aeolia must be the evil big bad. What difference does that make? Does that mean I should praise Ribbons for rejecting his plan and shit all over the Ptolemy characters?

>>15033744

> Because Kira says so.

The only time I mentioned Kira was to say I wasn't trying to justify him. I haven't used his reasoning to explain anything.

> There's situations in the show where it's more easy to say Djibril was the on conspiring

Of course there is, because he's a villain too. He's obviously going to responsible for at least some of the bad shit going on in the show. Otherwise he wouldn't be a villain. The only one I've mentioned or debated is the Gundam theft in episode 1 though, and saying he's responsible for bad shit later doesn't make him responsible for that. If it did, then Durandal would be just as likely on that argument alone.

> What?

Good question. I'm asking myself that as I wonder why you're trying to bring up other bad shit in the show to explain the first episode, which is all I've talked about.

>>15033799

The difference is that people were right about one and wrong about the other. Pointing out that sometimes foreshadowing can be laying a false trail to throw people off the track doesn't mean that foreshadowing can't also be there for good reason at times. And it was in Durandal's case. You might also consider that while Aeolia wasn't the big bad he was a conspirator and responsible for quite a lot of conspiracy.

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>>15033525
Lacus is really deceptive when you examine her.

> First time she steps on the Archangel she takes this bubbly, innocent persona (much like she has when she's Athrun's fiancee) to appear harmless. Once she's back in ZAFT hands she shows off just how on the ball she is.

> When Kira awakens in the PLANTS, Lacus's friend the blind priest says he found Kira in his prayer garden. Not only does this exclude Lowe's actions in Astray, it doesn't even sync up to the flashback show with Kira lying in the road in front of his house. This preacher also helped steal the N-Jammer Canceller-equiped Dreadnought Gundam to hand over to the EA in order to end the energy crisis.

> Show tries to paint Lacus as raising orphans for the two years between the shows. Supplimentary materials talk about how she founded a spy organization funded by Cagalli, who distribute stolen data to all factions (which, when you think about it, would weaken the peace). Said organization also stole equipment for their own use, including weapons banned by treaty, and backed Lacus's war effort.

> Once she becomes chairwoman, hands out promotions to her friends. Nepotism.

Lacus manipulates her own image to suit her needs. This may be why Fukuda says only he and his wife understand her.

>>15033885
>The difference is that people were right about one

After the author changed his mind about who the main cast was and had some kind of backstage temper tantrum so he could turn the new cast evil and have his self-inserts hijack the show.

>>15033909

Which doesn't actually mean he changed his mind about who the villain would be.

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>>15033913
The thing I'll never understand about this mindset is you don't think the Archangel characters were supposed to take over as the amazing badass heroes, but you're still insistent Durandal was always supposed to become Emperor Palpatine by the end. So where do those two concepts intersect for the Minerva characters? If they just become "the other guys" to join the Archangel side to fight Eeevil Durandal before the final battle and get absorbed into the already endless barrage of supporting heroes who worship everything Kira and Lacus say with no viewpoint of their own, you're really actually shitting on them and stunting their character growth just as badly as the ending we got (and yeah, that Super Robot Wars version makes a FEW improvements to a script that was totally and utterly full of wrong to begin with, but it gets far too much hype as the end-all "definitive" version of Destiny that fixes everything like people applaud it as).

If you want to not treat the new cast like garbage, you need to either 1) have THEM convince the Archangel why they should join THEIR side fighting the LOGOS collective, or 2) have both sides continue to fight through the end as equal ideological rivals, and not as batshit polarized comic book superheroes vs. Saturday morning supervillains, with the finale at least ending in a draw (if not letting the new guys get some kind of slight upper hand).

In either case, you're fucking it up and doing all the new characters a misjustice when you make Durandal stop being a morally ambivalent mentor and start acting like a moustache-twirling supervillain exploiting his mindless pawns for no reason. All you’re doing is overprotecting the old characters.

>>15034000

> In either case, you're fucking it up and doing all the new characters a misjustice when you make Durandal stop being a morally ambivalent mentor and start acting like a moustache-twirling supervillain exploiting his mindless pawns for no reason.

Has it occurred to you that Murosawa isn't particularly adept at writing morally ambiguous characters, or that she didn't want to, or at least know how to do justice to the old cast but was mainly concerned with overprotecting the old cast?

I don't know that the Archangel cast were or weren't supposed to take over, and really, I don't actually care, because I don't like Destiny enough to think about or investigate things that much, but I do know she's not a particularly good writer and that she doesn't seem to want to write moral ambiguity even regardless. I also don't think Durandal being a villain is depedant on one outcome or the other, and that regardless of whether Kira was the main character all along or simply supplanted the existing one there's room for multiple bad guys and plot threads in the show, just like SEED had.

>>15034025
>or that she didn't want to
They why did she even try?
Why didn't she just portray Durandal as Patrick 2.0 straight out of the gate, foaming at the mouth opposite to Djibril?
Why did she position the new cast closely around him at a point in the show where we're supposed to *like* the new characters, if he was always supposed to be so evil?

>but was mainly concerned with overprotecting the old cast?
Yes, and that was her failure as a writer. That's the reason why Destiny earned all the harsh criticism it gets to this day. Why are you still defending the show when you're pointing this out.

> because I don't like Destiny enough to think about or investigate things that much
Then WHY DO YOU CARE when people shit all over it? You're saying it doesn't matter to you, yet you're compelled to remind us Kira did the right then because Durandal was always an evil nasty man who had to be stopped.

>>15034083

> Then why did she even try?

Who says she did? Just because Durandal's full evil wasn't revealed straight away doesn't mean he was meant to be morally ambiguous. There was nothing morally ambiguous about Rau, but he was quiet and efficient until about episode 40 too. Not revealing someone as frothing at the moment right out the gate doesn't mean you're going for moral ambiguity, only that you're going for mystery.

> and that was her failure as a writer.

I agree. I'm not sure why you think that was in debate at any point either frankly.

> Why are you still defending the show

I'm not. I haven't done so even once, unless "pointing out that a certain character was painted as bad from episode 1" is defending the show. In which case your definition needs adjustment.

> WHY DO YOU CARE when people shit all over it?

I don't. I haven't argued once that you shouldn't.

> yet you're compelled to remind us Kira did the right thing

Again, the only time I mentioned Kira was to say I wasn't justifying anything he did. I don't care what Kira did or didn't do. I'm not defending his actions in the slightest. I'm not sure how much clearer I can make that.

> because Durandal was always an evil nasty man

That isn't mutually exclusive with Kira being good, bad or indifferent. Saying one character is bad isn't equivalent to saying another character who opposes him is good.

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>>15034112
You are the most proactive apathetic motherfucker I've seen in my life.

>>15034128

I'm apathetic on the subject of Kira. I don't mind pointing out that Durandal was probably behind the Gundam theft I'm episode one of Destiny.

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>>15034083
>Why did she position the new cast closely around him at a point in the show where we're supposed to *like* the new characters, if he was always supposed to be so evil?

Perhaps the original idea was for the new characters to turn against Durandal in the end? We don't know what the original gameplan was, so for all we know they could have switched sides later on.

Here's the thing, is this the writer's fault or the director's? Fukuda does, on paper at least, have the say in what direction the show goes in. Considering this guy's comments at the end of SEED about the seriousness of anime and SEED's relationship with the super robot days of old, I say it's more likely that this mess falls into his lap. After all, pic related.

My impression is that he's a guy you have to keep on a leash, otherwise he'll go in some very questionable directions. Unfortunately, their grip slipped somewhere and he ran off on his own.

>>15034152
Cross Ange is the reason I wish so badly GSD had been made in the Twitter era. Seeing Fukuda's weekly Kira rants would have given us so much insight into what goes on in his crazy mind, and it probably would probably shut up a lot of the show's defenders.

>>15034166
About 6 months late, I know. But I don't think it would have helped much considering how poorly translated old interviews were. That and the whole "Japan loved SEED Destiny" thing persisted despite there probably being a lot of negative discussion on forums over there. Hell, most people don't know that Gundam fans wrote the original SEED off as childish back in the day.

>>15034206
Yeah, but it still would confirmed so many things. When Cross Ange was airing, Twitter was where Fukuda just straight up admitted Tusk was supposed to die several episodes before the finale in the original script, and Fukuda lobbied over the show's actual director to keep Tusk alive so he could be Fukuda's next cool badass self-insert role model. Even kind of bragged about it. Right after the episode aired.

Imagine the shit he would be rambling about while Destiny was airing for a whole year.

There seemed to a geniune, but poor attempt at a "Who is really right here?" kind of thing once Kira shows up, with them jerking Durandal between "Maybe he isn't so bad, oh wait he's evil after all." before deciding that "Hah of course Lacus and Kira were the right ones"

Problem is Fukuda seems to think the audience is alot stupider than they actually are and they have aspect of genre savvyness whatsoever. Like people would seriously think Kira died even though he already had a highly promoted new mech coming.

Even in Cross Ange he seems geniunely confused that the reaction to the Tusk thing wasn't shock and surprise at seeing him somehow survive but instead wanting to know how he did so. Like he doesn't know people expect main characters to survive situations like that because of course they will in a fictional story and the important thing is to make sure it at least makes logical sense as to how.

>>15034740
I think the thing is Fukuda doesn't take storytelling seriously. He just wants things to be enjoyable, so he's fully willing to pull something out of his ass to make things work because he feels it will give the audience a better ride. This can be a nice approach depending on the show, but falls on it's face when attempting a serious work.

>>15034152
>Jutso
is that Naruto?

>>15034206
The Japanese SRW Wiki has what's basically an essay on everything wrong with the Destiny Plan.

And apparently Requiem was an idea taken from another show.

>>15034152
In this case, both.
The writer shouldn't be writing like an amateur or rushing scripts, because when you take a good look at it, the whole thing falls apart. The director should be taking the reigns and control of the situation. To this very day Fukuda defends every action his wife made. Now, on one hand, it shows that he loves her a lot, and that's kind of cute.

But on for the more blunt hand, that makes for a shitty show. "Her scripts were approved without changes every time" is just another way of saying "we throw in the first draft no matter what" I can't think of any writer off the top of my head that's good enough to have a first draft with no problems.

I mean, the idea is that the Second Battle at Orb is supposed to remind you of the one in the first series, BUT when you think about it, it's ultimately a pointless battle, even more so than the first one, because Orb is harboring a member of LOGOS because of a bunch of corrupt Orb politicians. You would think that NOW would be the nice time for a coup, but no, everyone literally watches and waits for it to happen until Cagaili shows up. Okay, great, the old Cagaili is back. What does she do? Charge into battle! Nobody tries to call off the battle, hell, nobody even thinks of looking for Djibril until Kira kicks her off the battlefield.

>>15036342
I wish I could understand Japanese, I'd like to read through it.

>>15034782
Pretty much. Like his thing in CA with Tusk. "How he survives isn't important, but he has to be there or else Ange will break down, so HURRAY he's alive again!"

And of course "And then they fucked for three days straight".

>>15036342
Yeah, not surprising. SEED's first arc played very close to Cyber Formula's and Rau ended up being a clone of Liquid Snake complete with his own "man who makes the impossible possible."

>>15036368
I mean, think about it. If we're trying to say that Shinn is wrong for his assessment of Orb, this scene shouldn't be playing out like this. Cagaili should be trying to call for it to stop as soon as she regains control of the country and fight after ZAFT refuses to listen. Did she even know where he was once she got there? No, it's time to fight for Orb! It's exactly what Shinn was talking about at the start of the series. Orb's at the brink of another war, and instead of packing these corrupt assholes aside and trying to avoid a battle when everyone in the room KNOWS they're wrong and leading Orb towards ruin, everyone sits and tweedles their thumbs, grumbling "but muh duty"

And considering how on the nose this series likes to be, there's no like where some ZAFT grunt snickers about how they're just using Djibril as an excuse to attack Orb or some shit like that. As soon as he's gone, they leave.

So at the end of the day the entire battle was to protect a terrorist! OOPS! They could write it so ZAFT is more objectively in the wrong, but since the script is rushed and lacking in details, they don't. It doesn't help that he goes on to chop up a few PLANTS right afterwards either.

The series portrays Orb as the downtrodden goodguys, but they played a direct hand in getting Djibril to the moon. If you're not trying to be gray, then don't have it play out like that.

>>15036390
One side argues genes determine everything while the hero argues against.

>>15036384
>Pretty much. Like his thing in CA with Tusk. "How he survives isn't important, but he has to be there or else Ange will break down, so HURRAY he's alive again!"

The strong, "empowered" woman needs her man beside her to properly function.

It's been months and I'm still laughing.

>>15036342
>The Japanese SRW Wiki has what's basically an essay on everything wrong with the Destiny Plan.
Link?

Just stopping by to remind you all that Gundam Seed and Destiny are literally perfect as anime products.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuxho88GB9I&spfreload=10

>>15034740
There's stuff I still can't figure out, like how the scene where Meer/Durandal gives Saviour to Athrun is literally the same scene as when Lacus gave Kira Freedom in the first series. It's the same set, the same camera angles, the same sorts of motivational dialogue, and the same launch sequence.

What was he trying to say here? Was he depicting Durandal/Meer as the show's Neo-Lacus and Saviour as Neo-Freedom at a point in the show where you're supposed to see them as inspirational figures, before he did a complete 180 on who the audience is supposed to relate to?

Did he never do a 180 and he was actually trying to depict Durandal/Meer as Bizarro-Lacus to compliment Saviour as Bizarro-Freedom?

Was there never any meaning behind it at all and he just recreated the entire scene verbatim because he thought it looked cool the first time?

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Is this permitted?

>>15038366
Yes.

>>15037317
Given how many scenes from Cross Ange are blatant recreations of scenes from SEED and Destiny, it's probably the latter.

>>15039319
>Cross Ange
it was yuri hentai

>>15037317

I think it was just easier to retrace the animation and that's literally all there was to it.

stop talking about kair holy shit

>>15019172
Bit Flay was a good girl

>>15016929
Shinn was a shit

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Ah brings back memories.

Is Destiny some secret masterpiece that we are all blind to?

I'd like to think so since Seed 1 is one of my favorites but I can't delude myself into seeing it like that

>>15041684
One of the morals of the series is supposed to be "don't blindly following your leaders." Considering the amount of discussion over the nature of the returning casts actions, I'd say the show is unintentionally non-hypocritical.

The Minerva cast provide another way of looking at the SEED characters actions from Kira's self-righteous, Orb's hypocrisy, Lacus's secretive nature and Athrun changing sides to suit his feelings. Like, imagine what would have happened if MGS 2 had ruined a lot of peoples' perception of Snake (you're still playing as Raiden though). That's Destiny..

>>15041718
Interesting idea. Sometimes I like to imagine that Destiny was intentionally written as some sort of 'original cast gone wrong' story with Kira forcing his desires on others and Lacus becoming space queen. In that perspective, it's rather fascinating.

If a 3rd Seed happened, it could be some kind of redemption of the original cast, or their defeat. Then Destiny would make a good middle chapter where things go horribly wrong.

But it's not intentional stuff, sadly, and there is no 3rd Seed to take it in a direction that nobody would think of.

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>>15041684
Of course it is!

>>15041792
Why does Lacus always suddenly have Meer's body type when she's in that outfit?

>>15041972
Because magic.

>>15041755
That would be the best way to make a third series. It really would. But like you said, their fall from grace was in all likelihood unintentional. After all, going back to CA remember what Fukuda did on Twitter after it ended?

Basically, people were pointing out Ange left the Mana culture to suffer while she and her friends fucked off to their little cafe. People pointed out how awful that was and what was Fukuda's response? He made up something unsupported by the show (that older lady checks in on the Mana Culture from time to time) to try and ease the criticism. The man really doesn't think about what his works actually say.

>>15041792
delete this

>>15036502
https://srw.wiki.cre.jp/wiki/%E3%83%87%E3%82%B9%E3%83%86%E3%82%A3%E3%83%8B%E3%83%BC%E3%83%97%E3%83%A9%E3%83%B3#.E5.95.8F.E9.A1.8C.E7.82.B9

>>15042698
tks based anon

>>15003943
all dat quality
>>15038366
rape?
>>15005064
>mexican novel
yeah, María, la del barrio 2.0

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>>15002046

GUYS I FOUND PROOF THAT KIRA IS GAY FOR ATHRUN!!!!!! LOOK HOW HARD HE IS FOR ATHRUN! LOOK AT HIS LARGE FUCKING BONER!

>>15041972
Does lifting heavy make you bulky?

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>>15043453

>>15043453
>>15043558

Okay, at least bi.

>>15042104

I think it's more he just doesn't expect people to care about stuff he doesn't care about or think is important.

Even back in Seed he was taken aback and had to BS up an answer when people asked him where the druggies came from, because they were just guys for Kira to fight now that Athrun's group wasn't the enemy until Rau was ready for his big final battle and he didn't expect people to really care.

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well, Lunamaria a child

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>>15002046
24 episodes in I can safely say Flay is a bitch

>>15044295
Congratulations, this proves that there is no need to create a new stupid thread to ask or comment about a series who already have a thread.

>>15044295
Give it a couple more episodes and then you'll realize that Flay is the best SEED character.

>>15044223
Meyrin a cute.

>>15044334
anon, she was a slut

>>15044587

Nothing wrong with that.

>>15044587
She really is.
Basically she was a well-to-do politician's daughter who was the popular girl in school. Held court with her gaggle of friends. Then suddenly all that is destroyed, her dad killed in front of her, and she's stuck on a ship in the middle of a war. Instead of stepping up like most of her classmates she flips the fuck out and goes all Blue Cosmos, and spends her time bitching and sulking. Then finally she gets so vengeful against Kira she kind of snaps, fucks him and starts manipulating him to fight 'for her' to make up letting her dad die. And when Cagalli comes along she gets insanely jealous, only to end up watching Kira 'die', and being thrown right back into the lurch of being a powerless know-nothing, palmed from person to person as som shellshocked doll, until she finally gets blown up.

>>15044625
>>15044295
She looks a lot like a hentai heroine

>>15002046
was it really that shit?

>>15045223
This dumb meme again

>>15045855

Gundam SEED & SEED: Destiny are dogshit anon.

>>15045855
Opinions you don't like aren't memes, fuckface.

SEED was my first Gundam series

>Gundam Seed HD Remaster
>HD Remaster OP1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPQ_YOWgay8
>HD Remaster OP2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woLN-7SRne0
>HD Remaster OP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayF0x7E1E_8
>HD Remaster OP4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxl_uEKVark

>Gundam Seed Destiny HD Remaster
>HD Remaster OP1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-y5RH_s0dHI
>HD Remaster OP2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woLN-7SRne0
>HD Remaster OP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af0i6Ba4JFk
>HD Remaster OP4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCxAmLsv2Bc
>HD Remaster OP5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7nI7qEXM_0

>>15047604
Ignited will always be the best one.

>>15044295
>Flay
>used goods
30 % of the value of the investment for
the acquisition of used goods

>>15047604
You put Destiny's 2nd OP in Seed's 2nd OP spot too.

>>15047604
>>15048074
>>Gundam Seed HD Remaster
>>HD Remaster OP2
https://tune.pk/video/4916182/1080p-moment-gundam-seed-hd-remaster-opening-2

>>15047604
>>15047799
>Mobile Suit Gundam Seed Destiny: 4chan's Cut
>Shinn's family getting blown up
>Ignited
>Armory One Incident
>Junius Seven Incident
>Kira gets back into the Freedom
>Ignited again
>Heine appears
>Heine dies
>Shinn meets Stella
>Berlin Incident (Destroy Gundam)
>Impulse vs Freedom
>Shinn gets the Destiny
>Shinn wrecks Heaven's Base
>Shinn wrecks Daedalus Base
>Kira appears at the last minute to shoot Durandal
>Kira meets Shinn to say 'let's be friends'
>Ignited ED, because why not

>>15014898
>Destiny ruined Cagalli so hard
dear god it did
"CAGALI IS CRYING BECAUSE YOUR GUYS ARE FIGHTING

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>>15049761
Cagali is 10/10

>>15050455
Cutie!

>>15049761
>>15050455
>>15050603
>Write two compelling, and one decent, female characters
>Kill one
>Ruin the second
>Make the lamest one the most important, then strip her of anything actually interesting about her

It's a miracle we somehow got the Hawke sisters out of that mess. Maybe Flay and Cagalli's spine were blood sacrifices to summon those two...

>>15050455
Cagali was a cunt

>>15044625
Finally another anon who gets it.

Fllay is the saddest and most tragic female character in the franchise. People can't see it through their own hate though.

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>>15050821
>It's a miracle we somehow got the Hawke sisters out of that mess.

Indeed.

>>15051143
Why is it better to sleep without underwear for females?

>>15051149

It's better full stop. Either gender.

>>15049761
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAng6_0bel0

>>15044295
It's so fucking weird how her bra looks like it's in a different plane of animation existence from the rest of her body, and everyone was speculating it was last minute censorship for the webcast and she'd be full topless in the Blu-Ray, but then the Blu-Ray came out and it's still... that.

>>15051149
Yep

>>15036396
Remind me, why does Shinn specifically hate Orb for what happened to his family? It's been a while since I've watched the show, and most discussions about it amount to Kirafags saying "Shinn is a shit, and everything he says is wrong".

>>15053285
He thinks Cagalli and her father are high and mighty shitlords who sacrificed the safety of its citizens by upholding their sovereignty and refusing to bow down to the EA.

Specifically because while Orb's leaders are the ones who spoke of ideals and pissed off the EA, only the civilians suffer while the leaders are safe in their protected bunkers.

>>15053414
Uzumi was a retard.

>Sir, the EA wants to use our mass driver! If we don't comply, they'll attack us!
>Okay, here's the plan. Wait for the EA to land right on our doorstep, fight them in our cities while our populace is still evacuating, hope that a ZAFT ace in a prototype mobile suit drops by to help us, and then our entire leadership structure barring my hotheaded daughter will blow ourselves up.

>>15053414
While what the leaders DID do was retarded (blow themselves up, a la >>15053637), you can't call that 'safe' by any stretch of the imagination.

Hell, in the original version of SEED Orb's civilians were evacuated days before the EA fleet arrived, making Shinn's family waiting til the last second either a shitty retcon or a gaggle of retards. I bet they spent that whole time looking for that stupid phone.

>>15053644
>While what the leaders DID do was retarded (blow themselves up, a la >>15053637), you can't call that 'safe' by any stretch of the imagination.
Oh, looks like I had it wrong. I thought Uzumi was the only one who killed himself in that explosion.

>Hell, in the original version of SEED Orb's civilians were evacuated days before the EA fleet arrived, making Shinn's family waiting til the last second either a shitty retcon or a gaggle of retards.
I only have the remastered series on hand, but the dialogue in episode 36 says two days of time were given for Orb to accept the EA's demands or be attacked. The EA was expecting to have to take Orb by force so they already had a fleet on the way. They even opened fire at the exact minute that the two days of time were up. Given the sequences of events in the episodes, it seems that at most there would have been maybe just over a day and a half of time for civilians to be evacuated. It's not impossible that there's still some stragglers, consider how little time there was to evacuate what must have been a few million people.

>>15053414
>>15053698
Orb's leadership thumbed its nose at a belligerent superpower with a bone to pick, resulting in a bloody invasion instead of an annexation then offed themselves, thus absolving them of any need to actually handle the consequences of their actions. The point still stands.

It's not a GOOD point really, it makes no sense that Shin has particular beef with Orb and not, say the EA, given how they were the ones actually doing the invading, and if Orb had rolled over with no fight at all, their Coordinator citizens would have been completely fucked when the new management took over.

But then on the other hand Shin is a teenager with a heap of emotional baggage, no-one ever put him in charge of being reasonable.

>>15053644
>MY MOBILE PHONE D:
Why did Shinn run off to grab it? Seriously, what was so important about that phone?

>>15053728
Shinn obviously has a problem with the EA, it goes without saying.
The difference is that nobody expects him to hate ORB, the country all of the old protagonists flocked to.

>>15053728
>and if Orb had rolled over with no fight at all, their Coordinator citizens would have been completely fucked when the new management took over.
That's the big thing there; were they really expecting the Blue Cosmos-infested EA to be good landlords in a Coordinator-friendly nation? Orb made a lot of dumb mistakes in that battle, but it probably beat the alternative for a lot of their citizens.

>>15053644
>>15053733

Technically, Mayu (Shinn's younger sister) dropped that phone as the entire Asuka family were racing to escape. Shinn rashly volunteered to get Myu's phone, but as he did, Mayu and their parents got killed.

Despite all it's talks of neutrality, Orb violated it on multiple occasions during the war. Even Uzumi is guilty of this. There are provisions in the peace treaty which specified Orb was not to give military aid to either ZAFT or the EA in the future, so I'm willing to bet it went public that Orb built the original Gundams for the EA.

Shinn's family believed in what Uzumi was saying, so that and the loss of his family makes a pretty solid case for why he hates Orb. Not to mention Uzumi blew himself up, escaping from any personal fallout. And when Cagalli comes in talking about how wrong ZAFT is being for building up it's forces,, she's not going to win him over.

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>>15021181

>>15053809
I think the issue is that Coordinators would probably have a better chance of escaping if they were just evacuating while the EA was moving in, rather than trying to escape while there's fighting going on. I think the EA would have been a little busy setting up than going Coordinator Hunting.

The interesting thing about Shinn being from ORB and thinking that way, because it puts the situation in another light. You get to see it from the perspective someone who doesn't have the power to go out and fight, and maybe not everyone is too interested in dying for their ideals. You can't really answer it with "HEY SHUT UP, WE FOUGHT BECAUSE WE THOUGHT IT WAS THE BEST COURSE OF ACTION EVEN THOUGH WE COULDN'T WIN".
There's no real right answer are, and the fact of the matter is that people get screwed over in a war, and you really can't say anything to them other than "Well, sorry"

But since this is CE, especially when they're being sloppy about the writing, there is an easy answer: SHUT UP SHINN, ORB IS GOOD

>>15053414
>>15053637
Did Orb ask ZAFT for help when the EA were about to invade? I know Athrun showed up, but that was entirely coincidental.

>>15053733
>>15053825
Shinn impulsively getting the phone seems to be part of his 'big brother' instinct. To me, Shinn isn't inherently a bad person, it's just his shitty behavior is ignored or even praised, while any acts of good he performs tend to backfire in some way.


>Be a good big brother and get your sister's phone
>Family gets blown up

>Try to stop Junius Seven from hitting Earth
>LOGOS are able to blame ZAFT for the incident anyway

>Save people being enslaved by the EA
>Get slapped by Athrun

>Return Stella to Neo to save her life
>Stella gets put into the Destroy Gundam, then gets killed by Kira anyway


>Tell off Cagalli and Athrun on multiple occasions
>Rey always has your back

>Act like a prick in general
>Rey, and most of the Minerva's crew, still praise you because you took out 15 enemy mobile suits in the last battle

>Break military law by releasing Stella
>Durandal gives you a full pardon

>Destroy the Freedom, and almost kill Kira, despite Athrun's objectons
>Rey tells Athrun to STFU, Durandal gives you a medal and a promotion

>Massacre the remnants of the EA at Heaven's Base and Daedalus Base
>More medals, more commendations

Kira had good substitute parental figures on board the Archangel (Mwu/Murrue/Natarle) to look up to, and set him straight. It's a shame Shinn didn't have that on board the Minerva.

>>15054336
Cute!

>>15045223
>UMM ISNT THIS TOO VIOLENT FOR KIDS???

Stopped reading right there

>>15054853
>Did Orb ask ZAFT for help when the EA were about to invade? I know Athrun showed up, but that was entirely coincidental.
Nope. During the 48 hour period, ZAFT tried to contact Orb through their closest major base which was Carpenteria, but Orb refused to speak with them.

What does /m/ think of Lacus? I have seen her described as villain, mary sue and also absolutely perfect online. I found her kind of creepy in how omnipotent she seemed.

>>15053414
>>15053728
>>15054309
>>15055045
How the hell does Orb's neutrality actually work? It sounds like they tried to pull an Anaheim, but got caught out.

>>15055135
She's perfect!

>>15055236
>but got caught out.

The problem is the writers never let it be depicted that way. Any time someone "calls out" Orb's elitist hypocrisy (which does legitimately exist), they're only doing it because they're being evil or manipulative.

>>15055236
Orb is the sort of neutral where they loudly proclaim themselves to be neutral and make a big deal of it, then immediately collaborate with one or both parties and then act genuinely shocked and offended when this lands them a thrashing.

>>15055135
To be honest, I just found her boring as fuck. I mean, if you think about it and dig a little you can find all those fun details and spin a theory out of them, but on screen? She's a non character. We see nothing about her as a person (including personal interactions with other characters), she's only ever shown in the context of being a plot device, either to drive conflict (at first), to give canned speeches about how was is bad that have all the intellectual depth of a paddling pool, and to immediately convince anybody that isn't designated a baddy to come round to her side.

You found it creepy, but I couldn't even suspend my disbelief long enough to do that, I just found it dumb. Realistically her words wouldn't convince a 12 year old, yet civilians, leaders and soldiers (on both sides!) drop whatever they were thinking and do what she says because the writer waves their hands and make it happen. It's sloppy to the extreme.

>>15055135
In short, what this anon said: >>15055906
Lacus is a poorly written Mary Sue peace princess, and any attempts to explain how she's so influential, or how she pulled the Strike Freedom out of her ass (Terminal), just make her (probably unintentionally, given the writer) look like a scheming villain who's barely better than Durandal.

One of the thing I LIKED about Marina in 00 is that most of her actual peace princess activities just outright failed, because realistically only powerless people who peace would listen to a powerless peace princess in a Gundam series, and that was in an AU with less open hostilities than the Cosmic Era. Marina's real impact was her influence on Setsuna's philosophy on war and life in general. Lacus DID fulfil a similar role for Kira for about an episode or two, until the Mary-Sue-Lacus-solves-everything train went full speed ahead off a cliff.

>>15054853
>Kira had good substitute parental figures on board the Archangel (Mwu/Murrue/Natarle) to look up to, and set him straight. It's a shame Shinn didn't have that on board the Minerva.
>Cue Super Robot Wars Z

>>15056711
Marina practiced actual pacifism and she stuck to her beliefs no matter what. To me, that's more strength than a hundred Kiras.

>>15053644

I think it's the latter. If I remember they were one of the last people out and his parents lamented not evacuating when first given the order because it wasn't until EA actually started dropping in and shooting that they realized it was serious.

>>15054853

Zaft offered, and Yzak in particular really wanted to jump in and fight EA.

Uzumi refused since he figured if he allied with Zaft for help he'd just be exchanging Azrael for Patrick Zala as their new evil overlord and he'd be tossing his natural citizens to the wolves instead of the coordinator ones and either way somebody would lose.

However this probably would have saved Shinn's family so HE would have been happy at least.

>>15055236

Effectively it means they aren't part of the EA or Zaft, and allow coordinators to live on an earth nation without persecuting them.

But then some of the higher ups tried to work with EA on the side in exchange for reaping some MS tech for themselves, and problems spiraled out of control from there.

Uzumi wasn't one of them, but he ended up having to take the blame.

That being said, Azrael would have invaded regardless because he just wanted all of earth to fall under Blue Cosmos's coordinator genocidal ways. He doesn't even mention that a few guys worked with them before, and pretty much says to his captain he was gonna invade and start shooting the place up no matter what Uzumi did because he wanted to test out the druggies.

>>15009423
Wanting an even shittier ZZ.

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>>15044295

>>15057221
>Shinn needed the help of other series characters just to become better

That's how messed up he would become.

>>15058205
>That being said, Azrael would have invaded regardless because he just wanted all of earth to fall under Blue Cosmos's coordinator genocidal ways.
If that was the case then EA would have annexed Orb and integrated it into their alliance, but they didn't. Despite having military superiority, they withdrew from Orb and let them remain independent.

>and pretty much says to his captain he was gonna invade and start shooting the place up no matter what Uzumi did because he wanted to test out the druggies.
I don't remember that at all. In the dialogue of episode 36 at about 13 minutes in, Azraek says he was worried that Orb would cave in to their demands, implying that he wouldn't have been able to attack them.

>>15059528
>>15057221
>>15054853

You know who would've made a good mentor for Shinn?

Kira. Not kidding. By Destiny, he would've had enough patience to put up with Shinn's raging long enough to calm him down, or just kick his ass with zero warning when pushed too far.

Athrun was the worst possible mentor for Shinn at that point in time, and it wouldn't surprise me if Durandal lured him back to ZAFT with this in mind.

>>15059586
I would have said Yzak. He's already gone through the process of being an angry little shit and realising what a cost that can incur and become much calmer (though no less grumpy), and I could see him seeing a bit of himself in Shinn. He also wouldn't put up with any crap.

>>15043453

Guys, no one is gonna comment about Kira's hard on?

>>15060166
Dearka gave Shinn advice in Srw L that led to the Minerva working with the Archangel.o

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best girl

>>15061838
god bless rentb

>>15061838
Within a broader framework, therefore, the disastrous consequences of anabolic agents on young people endeavouring to mimic their idols

>>15060508
Kira is gay

Are the Special Editions worth a watch?

>>15064990
yeah

>>15014898
>Destiny ruined Cagalli so hard. She didn't even get to shine in her custom mobile suit gifted from her 'father'.
You can't ruin was was bad to start with.

Her combat experience in Seed was: running around with a bunch of angry Muslims (which almost got her killed), piloting the Skygrasper twice (and getting shot out of the sky both times), and finally piloting Strike Rouge at the last battle of the series (where she shot like, one grunt, a group of nukes, and then got bailed out by Yzak).

Hell, when Rouge is getting ready to sortie, someone announces over the loudspeakers that the pilot is a rookie and that the support AI needed to be on at all times.

There's a reason Daddy's gift to her returned fire without actually doing anything.

>>15043453
>>15043558
>>15060508
That's not a hard on; the Ultimate Coordinator's penis is just that massive even when flaccid. It only looks like one because those pants are struggling to contain his girth.

>>15065369
>Hell, when Rouge is getting ready to sortie, someone announces over the loudspeakers that the pilot is a rookie and that the support AI needed to be on at all times.

lel, really?

>>15019172
excessive and pointless fanservice

>>15006654
>Shinn
Children or youths become rebels without a cause, with emotional instabilities and a future harmed by habits of waiting for the future.

>>15002046
I love it. Seed is my favourite Gundam series

>>15069884
Are you kidding or are you being serious?

>>15002046
Is there any difference between the normal and remaster versions?

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>>15070058
>Is there any difference between the normal and remaster versions?
yeah, the difference in quality is absurd.

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>>15070116
Exactly

>>15065372
>the Ultimate Coordinator's penis
Okay, but does Kira bite?

>>15070116

lol jesus fuck Athrun got a 5head

>>15002046
What were the plot inconsistencies/holes in Destiny?

>>15070555
Other anons could probably explain half of these, but...
>How did Mwu survive the end of SEED? We saw his helmet floating in space. A: Mwu's death was retconned due to his popularity, as was Andy's earlier in SEED.
>How the hell did Lacus get the Strike Freedom? A: She has actually has a secret spy organization that steals shit from the EA and ZAFT.
>Why does Athrun rejoin ZAFT, forgetting all of the character development he had in SEED?
>Why can Destiny's shield block THREE plasma cannons fired by the Destroy, but not ONE smaller plasma cannon fired by the Strike Freedom?
>Why don't Kira and friends feel any responsibility for letting Djibril get away?
>Why don't Kira and friends do anything against the EA? They only fight ZAFT.
>Why are Shinn and Luna dating AFTER HE KILLED HER SISTER? A: They were friends back from their academy days, and throughout the series one of them would express small hints of jealously whenever the other showed interest in another person. They had a thing for one another, but the emotional outburst of Meyrin's 'death' pushed them together. The Special Edition movies actually cut the Athrun/Luna scenes in favor of Shinn/Luna scenes.
>If Rey was so intent on being Rau's successor, how come just one five minute conversation with Kira, his most hated enemy, completely changed his outlook on life, and led to Rey shooting Durandal?
> If Talia ditched Gil because they couldn't have kids, and Talia eventually had a son with another man, why did Talia choose to die with Gil, abandoning her son in the process?

And of course, the big one:
>How did Kira survive the Freedom's explosion?

>>15070058
For Destiny you'd want the remasters though.

I'm planning on watching SEED as well as Destiny. I'm strangely excited to get pissed off as soon as I start Destiny.

>>15071374
watch the remastered version

>>15071229
>Why does Athrun rejoin ZAFT, forgetting all of the character development he had in SEED?
He believes Durandal's shit at first. Also, the first thing The Federation does after the fall of Junius 7 is to try to nuke ZAFT, when it wasn't their fault.
>If Rey was so intent on being Rau's successor, how come just one five minute conversation with Kira, his most hated enemy, completely changed his outlook on life, and led to Rey shooting Durandal?
Being a clone of Mwu, he was so convinced he had to follow the same path he never actually considered the other option. Actual reason: it was the last episode, the staff had to wrap-up things fast.

>How did Kira survive the Freedom's explosion?
The Freedom never exploded.

>>15071229
I think you're overreacting to a small problem

>>15071374

You probably won't. There's not much to really rage at till a dozen or two episodes in. It waffles between mediocre and boring for a lot of the first half.

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my favourite character

>>15073518
Yzak, Dearka or both?

>>15051302
6 second summary of why Mu got the Akatsuki.

>>15054336
Everyone thought that that little display was for Athrun. It was really for Shinn. Luna was playing the long game, and it paid off (except for the time Shinn went 200% MAD and almost stabbed her, but then Athrun intervened, so maybe...)

>>15059528
It does speak volumes about:
(a) how messed up Shinn is mentally, and
(b) how poorly his friends and crewmates onboard the Minerva supported him, if they weren't outright manipulating him for their own agendas.

>>15065369
I like how Cagalli was so useless in the Akatsuki, that Shinn almost did more damage to himself (via the beam reflection BS) than Cagalli had any hope of achieving.

And despite how retarded destiny was, I still prefer to have it dozens of times more in games such as srw and gundam related ones than vanilla seed, the units are more interesting.

>>15073528
>Yzak, Dearka or both?
Yzak

>>15073993
Pretty much.
Shinn had some shit friends.

>>15075118
but Shinn was also a shit

>>15075164
Negative feedback loop. Shinn acts like a shit, his shitty friends don't call out his shit, Shinn continues to act like shit.

He's a 15-year-old who lost his family in horrific circumstances, then suddenly finds himself getting his dick sucked constantly because he's REALLY GOOD at killing people that don't have plot armor. It's a miracle that SRW Z 'fixed' him.

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i liked him

>>15059279
Flay was very compassionate and understanding.

>>15003943
How did Kira comes back to life after being vaporised?

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>>15076670
Fukada is an expert in this subject, showed us how to use these plot holes in order to achieve its purpose.

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>>15076776
You're forgetting one.

>>15076857
Delete this

>>15042698
I like how if you go to Kira's entry, they talk about how childish he was in Destiny.

>>15076670
He simply wasn't vaporised (in the Destiny fight).
I think his survival during SEED when the Aegis blew up to his face was much more improbable.

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Why is the world so cruel?

>>15078734
Because the world was written around Kira.

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>>15077897
no.

>>15002046
Most problems with SEED Destiny are fixed by SRW Z and SRW L.
Fukuda and Morosawa are so bad that literal fanfics are better than the shit sandwich those two presented us with.

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>>15079157
No, they really aren't. The SRW versions are an improvement but they're still pretty broken in their own ways.

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>>15079404

>>15079404
>>15079541

STAHP KILLING TEH FUTURE!!!!!!!! REEEEEEEEEE!

>>15079404

Technically it sort of does part of that as well as Minerva is able to convince AA and Orb to actually help them against Dijbril and Requiem rather than fight them to keep Djbril safe (but he still gets away) and then ignore Requiem entirely.

They don't hop on team Lacus until after Durandal goes full overlord.

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>>15070116

Hairline on point

>>15079556
This is after Durandal tries to kill Athrun for literally no reason than to appear cartoonishly evil in SRW's continuity.

This version of Athrun still has Saviour Gundam,
This version of Athrun actively HELPED during Operation Angel Down.
This version of Athrun never screams at Durandal out of bigoted "B-b-but muh fwiends" paranoia, or does anything that would seriously warrant sending guards to his room.
This version of Athrun would have probably taken Legend Gundam as his upgrade if Durandal asked him.

But nope. The base is going to go into full panic mode hunting down Athrun on totally fabricated suspicions of nothing because herp derp Durandal is evil and the anime's script dictates he has to act this specific way at this specific point in the story. We're "changing" Destiny to fix it's problems, but we're not really _changing_ it.

Even looking at him as a stone cold villain who always covers his tracks with slimy PR, Durandal's actions make no sense here. Why give yourself away and try to randomly kill someone who you've already won over and is only an asset to you?

SRW is actually more forced and retarded than the anime in certain degrees.

>>15079541
What is this, an Athrun for ants?

>>15079614

There is a in game reason for that. Athrun lies to Durandal about meeting Kira earlier (because he can't completely dismiss the idea that maybe Durandal did try to kill them unwarrented so he's hestiant to let him get any closer) and eventually gets found out about that.

Athrun still has doubts about Durandal, he's just able to keep his mouth shut and mostly keep it to himself rather than freak out at him. But Durandal isn't really fooled and takes the chance to get rid of him when Minerva is alone at a Zaft base to retrieve Destiny and Legend and nobody would be around to argue in Athrun's defense.

Durandal's still the bad guy because his end game will never ever fly in any SRW. It's only Shinn they're willing to salvage. All they really do with Durandal is make sure he's properly confirmed to be evil rather than forgetting about it and assuming people won't care because Kira opposes him.

>>15079655

Yes. LOL

>>15079735
>Durandal's still the bad guy because his end game will never ever fly in any SRW

How do newer SRW games portray Celestial Being's "Let's all mindrape people with magic pixie dust at gunpoint to force them to be peaceful psychics and end war" endgame?

>>15079763

Well since war never ends in SRW (so they can make sequels) they mostly ignore it, much like EW's "and they never had war again" stuff.

Typically the ELS are calmed down and that's it. Setsuna doesn't leave, they don't do the flashfoward and instead it's hinting as a potential future that might come to pass.

>>15079790
>they don't do the flashfoward and instead it's hinting as a potential future that might come to pass.

But do the rest of the crossover heroes villainize CB for pursuing that future? Do they turn CB into terrible badguys you're supposed to hate at the last minute and go to war with them to prevent Innovation?

What's soooo wrong and unsalvageable about the Destiny Plan if they're going to let something equally invasive and potentially dangerous to humanity like the Innovation plan fly?

>>15079822

No because "maybe people will become innovators and achieve peace in the next hundred years or so or maybe they won't" isn't "Everyone do what I tell you to now or eat death laser."

>>15079157
I honestly preferred L's retelling, because Kira actually helped Shinn out with saving Stella, and they, in turn, helped faked the AA's destruction.

Also Shinn and Athrun part ways as actual friends when the latter goes with AA post-Orb.

>>15079932
>"Everyone do what I tell you to now or eat death laser."
When you put it like that, I'm not seeing that much difference between Durandal at the tail end of Destiny, and Kira during the middle section.

Oh wait, there is: Kira isn't serious about using his lasers, which was okay until Shinn started abusing loopholes.

This thread got me thinking.

Why the hell would the EA find Mwu, operate on him and tell him that he's Neo? I know that they DID, but the question is why? They found him in the middle of space, half/mostly dead. So either they were really eager to test out this new technology, or they recognized him for who he was. But if the was the case, then why the hell would they put him in a mask?

But putting that aside; if they're THAT good at installing fake memories into people to the point that they'd give them rank; WHY have the Extended project in the first place

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>>15080524
Maybe Fukuda just really wanted to make his own version of Viper (while completely failing to grasp the point of Viper and making me hate his guts even more).

>>15080273

> Durandal: You don't want to bow down to me as Supreme Leader and force everyone in to a caste system based on genetics? Then let me just laser thousands, if not millions of people whom neither of us consulted and weren't in any way involved to force your hand?
> Kira: Oh, you're fighting and won't stop? Then I'll just make you stop
> there is no difference in scale or intent between these two things

>>15081494
And like every Kira numbfuck denialist ever, your argument is fundamentally flawed because none of that ever actually happens in the context of the series.

Durandal doesn't fire at whoever he feels like just because they don't like his ideas. Scandinavia rejects the Destiny Plan WITHOUT throwing themselves into instant hostile military action against him, and he never points Genesis at Scandinavia.

Durandal fires at parties he has every justifiable reason to fire at when they insist on dragging the world into war against him when literally no other faction is asking for war. He needs to end the fighting as quickly as possible before he can even propose the Destiny Plan as a peacetime solution.

The ending tries to brute force ignore the fact Orb is--and always has been--the aggressor of the situation by crying bawwww b-b-but Durandal and expecting the audience to blindly side with waaaah muh xenophobia.

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>>15081631
forgot my pic btw

>>15081631

I don't actually think Kira is perfect and right, I just recognize that there's a clear difference in scale and intent between Durandal and Kira, so you can drop that strawman. Durandal fired on people who didn't want to just stand by and let him take control using a gun, killing lots of univolved people in the process. Durandal was also never particularly innocent frankly, even if Kira and Lacus' suspicion of him needed more confirmation before they fought him and trying to play him off as innocent and just being bullied by Orb because the writers didn't like him is disingenuous.

>>15081647
>Durandal fired on people who didn't want to just stand by and let him take control using a gun

A gun he was never using until they attacked him. A gun they didn't even know he had until they were stampeding through his front door.

>killing lots of univolved people in the process.
You're describing something that squarely falls back on Kira and Lacus fault. They're so clueless and so monstrous that they drag the rest of civilian Orb into the fray with them (turning the entire country into a target in the process) just so they can make everyone watch what amazing heroes THEY are when they force Durandal to retaliate against them.

>>15081675
>A gun he was never using until they attacked him. A gun they didn't even know he had until they were stampeding through his front door.

He turned on the EA remants first when they also refused the plan. That's how Orb knew he had repaired it in the first place, since the entire first plan of attack was to blow up Requiem first.

Who else still has their subs from 2005 on discs?

>>15082320
Ea said they wanted to negotiate but then sent an entire fleet towards the Plants. Considering how genocide happy they have been shown to be all throughout this series, you really think there was no threat of an entire fleet of those guys coming within spitting distance of Zaft?

>>15081631
The Destiny Plan is pretty stupid though.

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>>15082320
>He turned on the EA remants first when they also refused the plan

I can't add anything to this other than exactly what >>15082967 said. It doesn't matter what your true attentions were or how Durandal may have misinterpreted them. You don't send your entire armada straight toward the leadership of a faction you were JUST fighting in a war of genocide 10 minutes ago.

>That's how Orb knew he had repaired it in the first place, since the entire first plan of attack was to blow up Requiem first.
But it wasn't. Orb's first plan of attack was to attack Durandal when he was the only one giving a shit about Djibril and Requiem. They were already on their way and it didn't make a single difference what Durandal did next. The show literally gives you a scene where Kira and Athrun high-five like a pair of psychos and talk about how they want to go to space to "stop the Chairman" while hundreds of thousands of PLANT civilians are actively burning and screaming in the background.

They accuse Durandal of being a corrupt meany man trying to play everyone for fools, they attack him based on their delusions, and then when he shoots back, they go "Ha ha! That proves we were right all along!" That's the definition of delusional.

>>15083562
You're comparing it to a totalitarian regime dominated by two bigoted teenage girls tho. ZAFT victory would have been the more sane outcome.

>>15084291
*true intentions