what did Eva change

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>>14999538

Nothing. It changed nothing. we've always had dark themes, psychological and religious imagery and more "serious" mecha shows.

Eva didn't change shit.

>>14999538
Terrible, unlikable waifus became the norm

>>14999579
every time somebody uses Ideon for their shitposting it makes me want to watch it less

was this part of your plan?

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>>14999581
hell yeah it was.

Before eva there was nothing but robots and sentai stuff for children to watch in the morning. The only good anime of the time I remember were takahashi's works, orange road, votoms and yawara.

Then eva came out and changed everything. If not for her, the late night anime scene wouldn't flourish as it did and anime would to this very day be made only with kids in mind and not the more adult viewership. In just a few years after eva we've got more good anime than there was ever made before it.

>>14999590

Bait?, or.............

Anime has had adult viewers in mind since the mid 80s when the OVA boom came, and Eva was made for teenagers.

>In just a few years after eva we've got more good anime than there was ever made before it.

Not really. The late 90s was better than now, but it was'nt as good as any time in the 80s.

If anything Eva is the well done fanfiction of an 80s mecha fan. It is good because of what it shares with those shows, not in what it diverges from them with ( too much SOL/high school shit).

>>14999595
>OVA
Eva changed TV anime, anon, not OVA. They already knew they had autists who'd pay money to watch their OVAs, Eva showed that you could run a TV program that wasn't aimed at selling toys to kids and it still be successful.

>The late 90s was better than now, but it was'nt as good as any time in the 80s.
>Bait?, or.............

>>14999580
Doesn't Macross 7 predate Evangelion though?

>>14999538
Evangelion had no real impact on anime or mecha as a genre. The largest influence you could reasonably claim is that Eva helped popularize evening time slot anime in a time where anime was mostly put into early morning time slots. Was it popular? Yes. Did it change anime? No.

>>14999590
>Eva
>late night
It aired at like 7pm. And there were decades worth of anime aimed at older audiences before Eva.
>The only good anime of the time I remember were takahashi's works, orange road, votoms and yawara.
>In just a few years after eva we've got more good anime than there was ever made before it.
Okay, you're trolling.

tl;dr
>Eva didn't change anime or mecha and it didn't do anything new
>Eva was popular, helped pave the way for more evening anime as the OVA format was dying

>>14999597

Eva instead sold waifu dolls, cups, and everything under the sun, in order to make its designated profit.

It was'nt just OVAS, it was since the OVA boom that you could make anime series oriented at an older audience. And again, Eva was a show for 14 year olds, not adults. Most mecha anime in the 80s was predicated on the idea that you would get the 16-25 crowd into your show, Eva actually shot a bit lower than that.

>>14999623
>Eva instead sold waifu dolls, cups, and everything under the sun, in order to make its designated profit.
Except it easily sold profit without the merchandise as an anime original series, but that's beside the point. The merchandise was a result of the of its popularity, the show wasn't the a toy marketing commercial like many TV anime had become.

>Eva was a show for 14 year olds, not adults
Except everyone and their dog watched Eva back in the 90s. It came at a time where its sentiments resonated with everyone from 12 year olds to salarymen. It basically brought new life to anime during a recession where anime's future wasn't certain and the entire city of Akihabara essentially exists because of Evangelion.

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Nothing, of course. We all know everything was already invented before Evangelion and all it did was piggyback on the fame of much better works, resulting in their unjust obscuring. Evangelion has had absoluteley no influence on anything. In fact, Evangelion doesn't even exist. What you think of as Evangelion is actually a type of illusion, which, much like optical illusions do, create an object where in fact there isn't one through the complex arrangement of other things. Evangelion is that on anime form. The man known as Hideaki Anno is actually an actor paid by the Japanese government to say the most ridiculous things in an attempt to convince foreigners that the mass delusion known as Evangelion is in fact something important, which, as my Japanese friends tell me, is not the case.

How is Eva different from Mazinger other than the psychological aspect that Eva tried to present?

I know Gundam is different just from the military aspect that was introduced, but there isn't much changed for Eva.

>>14999538
Mecha design. The ectomorphic, gangly, noodly, tiny-waisted, hunchbacked, humanoid protagonist mecha was definitely a rarity pre-Eva compared to the designs that came after it.

In other news, I'm full of shit.

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>>14999647
The much more sci-fi approach? The commentary on otaku and anime? The aesthetics? The general attittude of the show? Its message? Pretty much everything about how the robots are handled? Its existentialist and psychological aspects which are kind of a huge deal? Its main characters? The motws? Being an anime original vs a manga adaptation?

Did you just pick the first show that came to mind or something? Because Eva is like a 180 turn from something like Mazinger. You go from the robot being an empowering element for the main cahracter to being a horrible, dominant presence in his life.

>>14999679
I agree with a few of those points but I'd say that Eva was a step away from science fiction.

While Gundam seems goofy now, it's very in-touch with the vision of western futurists in the 1970s. Evas are handwaved as something something dead mom.

I'd say the big shift is from marketable mecha (show sells kits and toys) to marketable characters (show sells waifu crap).

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>>14999651
>In other news, I'm full of shit.

You can say that again.

It made the Rei clone a big thing.

>>14999689
I meant in comparison to Mavinger. But still, the way Gundam and Eva approach is completely different either way. Eva is much more about the conceptual and strange aspects of it (like in Ultraman) than the social ones like Gundam.

>Evas are handwaved as something something dead mom.
Mobile Suits are handwaved even harder through Minovsky particles and Newtype magic. No, that they give you a detailed explaination doesn't make it less ridiculous. At least Eva runs with it throughly and turns its mecha into proper monsters. And exposes the hardships of communication in a non-infuriating way.

>>14999538
Lanky robots?

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>>14999538
>what did Eva change about anime?
Making more Beta faggots MCs
A shiton of Rei clones

>>14999538
After Eva, every anime and their mom had to have a school setting, regardless of what kind of themes or characters were in it. Uniforms became the norm.
Paranormal and conspiracy elements became standard elements to spice up any story aimed at a more "mature" audience.

>>14999538
I would say it proved anime by otaku for otaku can be extremely successful. It set a trend that you didn't necessarily have to make something new, but repackage old otaku shit as a new experience despite being almost entirely derivative. It paved the way for stuff like TTGL.

>>14999679
Eva is literally just Ultraman, devilman, and Mazinger all blended together with a main character that embodied all of Anno's personal issues. This has more or less been confirmed by Anno countless times.

>>14999737
Nagato is ok though ;-;

>>14999538
A containment anime show for normalfags/casuals? It serves its purpose with distinction.

>>14999835
Evangelion is one of the most mainstream anime ever created. It's anime 101.

>>14999737
> A shiton of Rei clones
thank you based master anno solely for this

>>14999835
Yeah, because Gundam is sooooo original. Did you know that Tomino actually fully conceptualized it while in a coma, and when he woke up didn't even know that anime had already been invented?

Fuck you. Everything has influence. That is not a complaint or valid criticism.

>>14999538

Eva changed the balance of a bunch of tropes and franchise structures going forward. It didn't really inventing anything from whole cloth that never ever existed before, but it did present a formula and some ideas in such a way that they became more popular going forward.

Anyone who tries to boil down Eva's impact to absolutes is going to fail, which is why you usually see trolls do it to create easily defeated strawman arguments.

Instead, Eva's impacts can be roughly described in three veins:

The first is the most obvious: following animes that tried to piggyback on Eva's success by aping large parts of it. Sometimes this even worked, lots of people liked Eureka Seven and Fafner because while they can be described as Eva-clones they are still good shows. Other attempts... not so much.

The second is the characters. Eva didn't invent most of is character archetypes, it just subverted them or took them in new directions. But there are a bunch of shows, post Eva, that basically just tried to lift Eva's characters wholesale and rehash them without actually putting in any of the work that mad Eva's characters good in the first place. Beta MCs that don't have the backstory and justification that made Shinji viable, bitchy Tsundere's with pigtails that don't have any of Asuka's conflict or depth. Rei is the odd one out, in that Rei clones are more obvious and easy to pick out than Shinji or Asuka clones, but at the same time a lot of Rei clones turned out to be better than Rei herself (Nagato, Eureka, etc) because they actually got development and focus whereas Rei, after Asuka shows up, almost disappears from the show until right near the end.

>>15000065

The third is merchandising. For a long time, Mecha shows lived and died on their toy lines, which is why everything in Gundam was designed by a toy company. The toys came first, the plot came second. The characters almost didn't matter, at least from a merchandising perspective.
Eva really pushed its characters above its mechs. Even now, the amount of figures of Rei and Asuka in different and more baffling costumes faaaaaar outstrips the meager offerings for the Evangelions themselves. The mechs were not designed with toys in mind, which gave them a distinct profile and appearance, and the characters are what took off. Eva certainly accelerated, if not started, the trend of putting way more focus on character designs. To the point that, these days, its not uncommon for characters to have more effort put into their unique design than anything about their personality or plot contribution. Gotta sell those figures, man.

Examples of all of these exist, in some form, before Eva. But the success of Eva changed the emphasis and proliferation of it. Just like sequels and superheroes existed before Iron Man, but the success of the MCU has warped Hollywood into a machine that craves megafranchise cinematic universes and superhero blockbusters.

>>15000069
>Gundam
>Toy first

Gundam 79 came before its toys

Everything after that was a commercial

>>15000102
You're forgetting the production process. Toy design was kept in mind through the whole process resulting in changes that Tomino is well known for hating. If you look at the original designs for the main suits, back when it was still called the Gunboy, they look like mediocre 70s toys through and through. Tomino saved the designs but still had to make toyetic concessions.

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>>14999538
fuck off Asuka is a generic violent tsundere bitch who is always physically and mentally abusing without any reason of the generic beta harem MC called Shinji

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Anonymous 12/07/16(Wed)20:04:46 No.15000146
>>14999679
>The much more sci-fi approach?
I don't know what that means.

>The commentary on otaku and anime?
Which was?

>The general attittude of the show?
Which was?

>Its message?
Which was?

>Pretty much everything about how the robots are handled?
You mean how they bleed when cut in half? Anno admitted he took that from Mazinger.

>Its existentialist and psychological aspects which are kind of a huge deal?
See my question above. Sans the psychological aspects. Existentialist how?
>its main characters?

Well, Shinji is a bitch and Kouji is a badass, but Sayaka isn't much different from Asuka and Professor Juuzo still had that asshole persona about him that's no different from Gendo.

>The motws?
How is Eva's MOTW different from Mazinger? Help me here.

>Being an anime original vs a manga adaptation?
That's just a format, and the TV anime wasn't a manga adaptation. It was more like an alternate reality.

>You go from the robot being an empowering element for the main character to being a horrible, dominant presence in his life.
Mazinger is both an empowering element and also a horrible dominant presence. It's literally a Demon God.

>Did you just pick the first show that came to mind or something? Because Eva is like a 180 turn from something like Mazinger.
If you actually explained how. Mazinger clearly has some Devilman traits which is what Eva was inspired by.

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>>14999679

>>15000153
You saying
>Which was?
>What?
>Please explain?
doesn't actually invalidate any of his points moreso than it does display your own stupidity.

>Everything about how the robots were handled boiled down to "they bled" which means the everything was stolen from Mazinger
Yeah, stupidity.

>>15000052
No need to get so defensive, unoriginal doesn't mean bad. Yes, there is something influencing almost any form of media but it's about how blatant it is, does it improve on the message, or did it put enough of its own spin on it to stand out. Honestly Eva is extremely derivative of its influences, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. It knew what it was and for the most part delivered.

>>15000225
I'm not offended because you're wrong in listing the influences, rather it's the hypocrisy in doing so as if it doubled as some sort of valid criticism, as if it wasn't something that, and I cannot stress this enough, literally every single person who has ever created anything, ever, has done, and as if saying it about Eva should disparage it in any way.

So fuck you for doing that.

Anything past that and we'll just have to disagree, because Eva is definitely among some of the best anime that took it's influences and made something better, or at least newer, out of them.

>So specifically, what did Eva change about anime?
Instead of ripping off Gundam, people were more frequently ripping off Evangelion

That's about the long and short of it

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>>15000211
>doesn't actually invalidate any of his points moreso than it does display your own stupidity.

So, asking someone to explain his positions instead of just throwing around vague words and phrases is stupidity? OK.

>Yeah, stupidity.
Then please explain how Eva handled giant robots different from Mazinger.

Just saying it does isn't enough.

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Literally all he said that Eva did a 180 turn on Mazinger. In what way? The psychological aspect? Which I already acknowledged.

And the psycho part only came into effect in the second half. The first half of Eva was just average generic MOTW.

What do these episodes involve that Mazinger doesn't? Teamwork? Check. Angst? Check. Dumb big giant robot battles? Check. Life situations like high school and love interest? Check.

>>15000251
First of all, nothing is being proven or disproven in this conversation, no consensus will be reached, and if no matter what anyone says you know that your position will remain, "see, it is just the same as Mazinger," then this is mostly pointless.

Are you seriously asking because you want to know? Do you seriously need someone to explain these things to you?

>>15000256
Yes, you figured it out.

Every single piece of media is the same. There is no difference. Congratulations!

>>15000258
I asked how it's different and all I got was it's different because I said so and don't bother me about it.

I can see how Gundam is different but Eva is of the same mold as Mazinger which are realiant on robot porn and high teen drama.

Gundam is 180 but Eva is just a more condensed Mazinger with some psycho aspects. That's literally it unless you want to tell me otherwise.

>>15000274
I feel like I'm being asked how The Lord of the Rings and Conan the Barbarian are different here.

I mean, they both have swords and magic, right?

>>15000239
>>15000258
>>15000261
The burden of proof is on you, friend. You are making claims that require being backed up by facts, logic, or examples but you out right refute doing so and demand people take your word at face value. You are discarding the notion of any discussion or debate because people will "unreasonably just say that's proof of the counterargument." This is coming off more as you don't have any such argument to put forward than anything else.

Sorry friend, but unless you tell us WHY what you claim is true then you are just going to come off as an over defensive fan who cannot accept any criticism of Eva. Hell this isn't even much criticism, people are just saying it's NOT some huge ground breaking series in terms of content or writing. I would say >>15000065 and >>15000065 are the posts that best explain what it changed or influenced in the anime industry.

>>15000280
I don't know much if not anything about Conan. I was too young for it. Please explain how they're different.

>>15000284
No criticism has even been offered besides "I don't like it, it influenced nothing, it's unoriginal."

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>>15000292
Wait, really?

>>15000284
Funnily enough, I wasn't even criticising Eva. All I asked was how it's different.

>>15000284
Oh, and one more thing, I'm not even trying to defend Eva here, or claim that it did influence things, I'm just saying that most of what people are saying here is bullshit.

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>>14999538
Now we have a shit ton of rei clones and angry red haired bitch became a meme.

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>>15000294
They made a simple claim and arguments have been made as well as citing series that have influenced it note for note. The onus is now on you to disprove our arguments or convince us that your argument has merit.

>>15000294
Read my post dumbo. I only asked how it's different and you acted like an insecure fanboy.

>>15000298
I never watched Conan in my life before. Please explain.

>>15000306
Read my post. All I asked was how It's different. First time poster and I already get fanboyism.

>>15000294
That's the funny thing, very few people here have. All anyone is saying is it's not an original show, even admitted by the director. It's similar to when people start complaining that spiral energy isn't ripped off Getter Rays, when the creator openly admitted it is in an interview.

eva validated otaku by having a massive otaku make a fanservice anime. thats also why americans think eva is so important. they arent otaku so they dont understand why it wasnt that important. its just anno revisiting the things he loves

>>15000311
Disprove? Onus? Motherfucker, what do you think is going on here?

Eva has influences. Everything has influences. This is not a bad thing. This is a good thing. Pointing out these influences does not count as criticism.

Sometimes, when people are talking about Star Wars, I like to walk over and loudly say, "Sergio Leone." If someone ask, "Like the Dollars Trilogy?" I respond with: "Akira Kurosawa." Then, when someone brings up Seven Samurai or Yojimbo, I whisper: "Red Harvest."

Basically, suck my, or Joseph Campbell's, dick.

>>15000314
>I never watched Conan
>watched

>>14999679
Okay answer me truthfully. Did you fully watch Mazinger Z?

If you're claiming it's different, then you must have watched it. You're not Clawshrimpy, right?

I assume you did, so do explain how it's different from Mazinger.

>>15000341
Do you realize how fucking insane the argument you're trying to making is? Do you know what a fallacy is?

And I want to be clear here, I am not the poster you're quoting.

>>15000333
Wow you sound like one hell of a conceited asshole. Listen friend, reread the OP
>Often I hear people say that Evangelion had a massive influence on anime. But they never mention how it changed anime or any explicit examples of shows inspired by it.
>So specifically, what did Eva change about anime?
And it didn't CHANGE anything outside of certain details like the above post one anon explained. In the writing department it's near note for note copies.

>>15000353
Compare and contrast you dumbo.

How are you going to know what's different if you're not even willing to investigate the contents of one?

Did you at least even finish high school?

Evangelion influenced nothing, it's a fake show, it doesn't even exist

Evaneglion may not have directly influenced any shows, but denying its cultural impact in Japan is asinine. It basically birthed the modern Otaku industry, i.e. Akihabara.

>>15000354
Yeah, but see, I'm not arguing whether it did or did not influence thing, or whether it was or was not influenced by other things.

I'm saying pointing out things like
>It's just Devilman. Plus Ultraman. And Ideon, of course. Oh, and Nausicaa. Don't forget Gundam. And Mazinger, Godzilla, Skull Killer Jaki-ou, and a billion other things.

>It's just all of those things at once, it's so unoriginal.

That's bullshit.

>>15000369
>but denying its cultural impact in Japan is asinine
Please point when that happened.

All I asked was how it's different from Mazinger and all I got was a bunch of fanboys screaming at me for daring to ask about the difference.

The best part is, they didn't even watch Mazinger, so it's not like they have any authority in saying what was so different.

>>15000371
Then you have to explain how it took all those influences and turned it into its own thing, like what Star Wars did.

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>>15000380
I don't have to explain shit to your stupid ass. Fight me in real life.

>>15000298
You still haven't explained even one thing about how Conan and LOTR are different.

Just saying they are is not an answer. Otherwise I might as well just call native americans indians without investigation and call it a day.

>>15000385
>I don't have to explain shit
Which is code for "I don't want to explain shit because I can't", most likely due to a lack of actual argument in the first place.

>>15000389
All I'm seeing is that you're too stupid to work it out yourself.

>>15000394
As if, even for a second, you had an argument of your own.

>>15000396
>All I'm seeing is that you're too stupid to work it out yourself.
Which is code for "I don't want to explain shit because I can't", most likely due to a lack of actual argument in the first place.

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>>15000405

>>15000403
>As if, even for a second, you had an argument of your own.
I don't need arguments. You're the one claiming they're different.

And even if I had an argument, it certainly would be way better, considering I actually watched both Mazinger and Evangelion so If I have to make an argument, I'd be in a way better position to do so.

To me you're just dumb fanboys who can't back up anything you say. You're like a version of Clawshrimpy who loves Eva.

>>15000405
Neon Genesis Evangelion was the vanguard for anime as an intellectually viable medium, for anime that take their audiences serious with challenging themes and ideas, and for the wave of anime merchandising that has been a staple of Japan for the last 20 years. These factors have left a lasting mark on both Japanese pop culture and Japanese culture as a whole.

A central hurdle in understanding the true significants of Neon Genesis Evangelion on Japanese culture (pop or otherwise) is that, as outsiders and as (most likely) individuals that were not active members of Japanese pop culture prior to 1995, we do not understand what Japanese pop culture was like in a world without Eva. To oversimplify the issue, every show since Eva has benefits from the feats Eva was able to pull off. It changed the game.

The take away point here is that Eva was a forerunner in anime series being constructed with intentionally intellectually challenging themes and ideas while also being very popular. Eva didn't compromise its narrative in order to appeal its audience, and Studio GAINAX trusted its audience to be able to handle Eva. Certainly Eva was not the first work of Japanese animation to be intellectually challenging or to take its audience seriously. However, it was the first to really succeed at captivating an audience and proving that its level of narrative structure was commercially viable.

(I would like to make a side argument: commercially viable =/= ran financially well. For one, anime production is very expensive. Additionally, GAINAX's finances were not run by a trained accountant and they had notorious financial issues involving running out of budget for Eva in the production stage, in addition to facing tax fraud charged later on).

>>15000421
cont'd

The background of Studio GAINAX cannot be ignored in this discussion either. Eva by itself is a memorable show, but GAINAX did (and does) everything in their power to capitalize on that memory. Studio GAINAX was founded by a group of nerds (proto-Otaku really) that cut their teeth on making fan films and fan merchandise. Studio GAINAX's founders are arguably the reason Japan's merchandising market for anime, manga, and video games is so successful. They were responsible for General Products, the first successful store to sell licensed movie merchandise in Japan. They made vinyl toys and prop replicas, such as Godzillas and Kamen Rider masks. (For more on this, I highly recommend Yasuhiro Takeda's The Notenki Memoirs: Studio Gainax & the men who created Evangelion (2005)). To link more to how important their role was, these men also started the original Wonder Festival.

With this background, GAINAX was perfectly poised to capitalize on the popularity of Eva and on the emerging economical power of the otaku sub-culture. In Japan's stagnate economy, not a lot of people are willing to shell out their hard earned cash. That is, except for niche groups eager to obtain the objects of their obsessions. GAINAX capitalized economically on this by marketing goods to the otaku sub-culture that were so enamored with Eva, paving the way for every series since to do that same aggressive merchandising.

>>15000416
No, I never claimed Mazinger was different than Eva. Someone else did. I just called you stupid for not being able to realize it on your own.

Like I said, Eva has influences. Did it use those influences well? That's an opinion, and I can't convince you of an opinion.

There is no "evidence" and you're coming across as more autistic than Kamille with your insistence that there should be.

>>14999538
>>14999597
I didn't see many of the "withdrawn" or "otherworldly" female character types until after Eva. Specifically the Rei type, where they are quiet and very obviously a critical component to the "bigger" story picture.

Who is the best "Rei" before Rei was Rei?

>>15000371
>It's just Devilman. Plus Ultraman. And Ideon, of course. Oh, and Nausicaa. Don't forget Gundam. And Mazinger, Godzilla, Skull Killer Jaki-ou, and a billion other things.
Said no one in this thread. People have stated 4 series: Mazinger, Ultraman, Devilman, and ideon. 3 of which Anno OPENLY admits are huge influences or where he just flat out admitted "yeah i took the idea of them bleeding from Mazinger."

Your own admittance about what you do when you hear people say what they like proves you are a pedantic contrarian who rather look down your nose than make an argument.

The only person being pigheaded here is you. This thread wasn't ABOUT criticism, you just keep taking calling something not influential is akin to criticism. When it comes to concepts or ideas put forward in Eva, nothing was new.

Yes everything has influences, but it's about how they put their spin on it or introduce new things to the concept but Eva DIDN'T really do anything of the sort.

>>15000423
cont'd

Now I couldn't imagine a Japan without readily available merchandise for popular shows or franchises (or even the less popular ones). A few months ago Lupin III characters were adorning canned coffee at 7/11, and now there is a whole Evangelion campaign going on. Merchandising of anime goods has spread into all aspects of Japanese life. Pokemon characters are in math textbooks for Elementary schools, everyone has some anime character on their cellphone strap or keychain, and Doraemon is an ambassador for Japan. I would argue that this all started with the success of Evangelion and its crack team of merchandisers.

Jumping back a second, Dr. Galbraith pointed out that Eva was also the vanguard in anime being taken seriously as an intellectual, philosophical, and socially valuable medium. I think this may be the crux of many arguments for Eva's cultural significants in Japanese culture. Whether you agree or not, Japanese scholars at the time saw Eva as a banner they could raise to argue that anime as a medium was just as academically valuable and socially significant as live-action films or literature. This moment was a true watershed for Japanese pop culture, much like the birth of film theory in the west. Eva elevated Japanese animation from a pass time for children and weird obsessed adults into an equal to the films of Kurosawa or the texts of Natsume Soseki. (I am not comparing Evangelion to Seven Samurai or Kokoro, I mean to highlight that now, thanks to Eva, anime could be discussed and valued in the same way).

To me, all of this makes Neon Genesis Evangelion absolutely significant to Japanese Pop Culture and most definitely shows it has had an impact on Japanese culture as a whole.

>>14999580
>I've never watched an anime that didn't have robots in it, but let me pretend to be an expert on the history of the industry.

>>14999538
Series like RahXephon and the second season of Big O were clearly trying to ape the same shit. This isn't up for debate. Get over it.

>>15000428
Cant argue with any of this. Good job.

>>15000427
This isn't the only thread where people figure out every reference in Eva to use as ammo for how unoriginal it is.

Everyone knows the influences already. There isn't any denying that. This thread wasn't about criticism until people started saying things like
>It influenced nothing
>It's basically fanfiction
>It's derivative
And so on. That is criticism, or, at least, thinly veiled criticism.

I'll give it to your straight: If you think Eva is indistinguishable from Mazinger, then you are retarded.

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>>15000447
But they both have robots and sometimes the main character cries and doesn't want to pilot his robot.

Eva didn't change anything, obviously. But of course In another thread I'll go on about how every mecha protagonist was hot-blooded and badass and never gave up before the big bad Eva boogeyman came along and ruined all anime forever.

>>14999581
But he's right. Everything that Eva did 'first', Ideon had already done.

Originality is oversold anyways. Eva was an enjoyable show with good visuals and nice fights. Why can't we leave it at that?

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>>14999538
EVA attempted to have characters that actually had inter-character relationships that went further back than episode 1, and deeper than blood ties or childhood friendships, coupled with themes that went higher than "X Villain is going to destroy Y place with Z McGuffin," -all under the ruse of actually being the shallow versions of those elements which it was attempting to subvert. This is not to say that shows didn't have dark themes, edgy kids, or alternative robot designs before EVA, but EVA was trying to do it all differently; using tropes as ground-work to be built upon and/or subverted (depending on who we're talking about), and building a world that goes further forwards and backwards, which is never actually shown in the show, but alluded to through dialogue and very brief flash backs/forwards. It's success was mixed, and benefited heavily from the social climates of the 90s, but whether or not you think it's overrated (which it usually was) or underrated (which it often is), it's influence is unmistakable: every anime studio everywhere trying to be dark and edgy to get the EVA audience, which generally worked enough to propagate the process for a solid 20+ years, because the only people dumber than production executives is the general audience.

Ultimately, it did about as much harm as good in the short run, but I think it'll be appreciated more in long-run. It spent a good while being drastically over-rated, and is now the ire of every contrarian that's ever looked twice at the anime market, but it is both good and influential, and ultimately I think the medium of animation will benefit from it's existence.

>>15000424
>I just called you stupid for not being able to realize it on your own.
Realise what?

>Like I said, Eva has influences. Did it use those influences well?
I'm not even talking about that.

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>>15000428
>>15000423
>>15000421

>>15000421
>for anime that take their audiences serious with challenging themes and ideas,
Such as?

>and for the wave of anime merchandising
Actually I was asking about the content, not about the toys and waifu pillows that were made as a result of the show.

>we do not understand what Japanese pop culture was like in a world without Eva
I grew up on manga, what did I miss?

>intentionally intellectually challenging themes and ideas
Such as?

>Eva didn't compromise its narrative
What was it supposed to compromise?

>trusted its audience to be able to handle Eva
What couldn't people handle before?

>intentionally intellectually challenging themes
Such as?

>take its audience seriously.
Example?

Seriously, what the fuck are you talking about?

>>15000423
>GAINAX was perfectly poised to capitalize on the popularity of Eva
I spell copypasta but I'll play along.

By the way I wasn't here to say that Eva didn't make money.

>paving the way for every series since to do that same aggressive merchandising.
So you're saying that anime producers became greedy fucks?

>>15000428
This is a ruse. What does this have to do with Eva the actual show?

>>15000566
>Empty pseudo-questions: the post.

>>15000476
>EVA attempted to have characters that actually had inter-character relationships
Isn't it the job of anime producers to have a semblance of relationships between characters?Why is this surprising?

> and deeper than blood ties or childhood friendships
How do you go deeper than blood ties or childhood friendships? Do you simply mean the act of loving?

>coupled with themes that went higher than "X Villain is going to destroy Y place with Z McGuffin
What are these themes that Mazinger didn't have?

>all under the ruse of actually being the shallow versions of those elements which it was attempting to subvert.
I don't understand. Please explain.

>This is not to say that shows didn't have dark themes, edgy kids, or alternative robot designs before EVA, but EVA was trying to do it all differently
How?

>using tropes as ground-work to be built upon and/or subverted (depending on who we're talking about), and building a world that goes further forwards and backwards
What?

>but alluded to through dialogue and very brief flash backs/forwards
I think it's normal for anime to have flashbacks. Wasn't that a thing before Eva?

>It's success was mixed
>It's

THIS IS A MISTAKE. CORRECT YOUR TEXT YOU DUMB THIRD WORLD NIGGER. REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

http://www.its-not-its.info/

>>15000476
>it's influence is unmistakable:

http://www.its-not-its.info/

>>15000476
>I think the medium of animation will benefit from it's existence.
I think you will benefit from a grammar school.

http://www.its-not-its.info/

Holy fuck, any doubt that this idiot was a troll has all but evaporated.

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>>15000421
>>15000423
>>15000428
>>15000476
Cool story but I didn't ask you about the influence of Evangelion. You just typed all this pseudo nonsense answering to no one.

ALL.

I.

ASKED.

WAS.

HOW.

DIFFERENT.

EVANGELION.

WAS.

TO.

MAZINGER.

All you could have told me was that Eva is purple and green and iwhile Mazinger is a combination of white, red and blue, and that would have satisfied me in terms of differences.

Holy shit that was retarded, anon. Sincerely, it was. I do hope it's copy pasta otherwise I genuinely fear for your mental health.

>>15000651
Evangelion is different than Mazinger you massive homosexual.

>and iwhile
Maybe you should ask for a dictionary for Christmas.

>>14999581

What shit post? You asked a question, don't bitch because you don't like the answer.

Really seems like the wost thing you can tell an Eva fag is that they're not special

Waifu statues got way more marketable

>>15000656
a keyboard typo isn't the same as wrongly using English words.

One means you simply missed the keys, while the other means you have a fundamental misunderstanding of English grammar.

>>14999579
This is actually true.

However, think of Eva to what Mecha turned into like what Final Fantasy IV did for JRPGs.

Did it do everything Dragon Quest did before? Yeah, and in some ways better.
Did it still kick shit off? Hell yes.

>>15000421
>>15000423
>>15000428
You aren't saying that all the 80s anime built for hobby and modeling otaku "didn't take its audience seriously". Because you'd be dead wrong.

In fact you mention
>Eva was not the first work of Japanese animation to be intellectually challenging or to take its audience seriously

And this sums up everything you just typed:
>However, it was the first to really succeed at captivating an audience and proving that its level of narrative structure was commercially viable

>captivating an audience
Bullshit, anime wouldn't exist period if it couldn't 'captivate an audience', so this sentence is so generic as to be meaningless. Claiming that Eva was the first to do this is dead wrong. Do you think that fucking 75-episode Dougram 'couldn't captivate an audience' before Eva?

>proving that its level of narrative structure was commercially viable
So this is what it comes down to. Screw all the intellectualism and originality, because you yourself threw that out the window. Everything boils down to money. Eva made money, eva became popular, and failed to do anything else. It gave us this so-called 'anime merchandising', and woo-fucking-hoo, now we have body pillows and doujinshi. Happy?

Anime was fine before Eva. In fact, it was great before Eva. We had anime - and specifically mecha! - videos and model kits and hobby magazines. Hell, we had MD Geist and Mecha Press in the states before Eva. Then eva comes, and now what? Nothing new appeared conceptually.

We still have magazines, toys, and video tapes. Now, it's merchandised out the ass and raped for profit motive. Happy? It's widespread, but widespread != socially valuable. See McDonalds and Pepsi. In fact, outside of Studio Ghibli, most anime is actually looked down upon by foreigners. Anyone on the street has respect for Citizen Kane; do you really fucking think they share that respect for boob-flashing fourteen year-old pigtails inside a big red robot?

>>14999737
kuuderes are best in bed

>>14999600
>The largest influence you could reasonably claim is that Eva helped popularize evening time slot anime in a time where anime was mostly put into early morning time slots. Was it popular? Yes. Did it change anime? No.
This, mostly. After Eva, we did see a lot more series using pseudo-meaningful symbolism in the same way Eva did. Was Eva the FIRST? No, but it really kicked up the trend for a while.

>>15000421
>Neon Genesis Evangelion was the vanguard for anime as an intellectually viable medium, for anime that take their audiences serious with challenging themes and ideas, and for the wave of anime merchandising that has been a staple of Japan for the last 20 years. These factors have left a lasting mark on both Japanese pop culture and Japanese culture as a whole.
You dumb nigger, this shit was going on for YEARS before Eva started. There's always been "serious" intellectual anime, and there's always been mass merchandising. Lots of directors and creators had to constantly deal with the prospect of merchandising actually shaping their shows. Like Tomino with Gundam, the toy colors of RX-78-2 literally are the result of marketing appeal.

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>>15000137
>fuck off Asuka is a generic violent tsundere bitch who is always physically and mentally abusing without any reason of the generic beta harem MC called Shinji
perfect

>>14999538
EVA only popularized certain things that up until then where mostly in the fringe.

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>tfw people think eva covered serious themes

Oh yeah? Where were you when Great Mazinger (1974) actually touched upon racial tensions?

Those are real themes, not some teen's urge to fap to comatose chicks.

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>>15001353
Here's an actual classic Tsundere, from fucking Mazinger.

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>>15001389

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Great Mazinger also raised awareness about pedophiles during a time when children abuse was often unreported.

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Also has some bits about domestic violence.

Real world themes here, none of that Evangelion fakeness.

>>15001389
>>15001397
>>15001402
And none of these ideas came from Nagai, you should add.

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Eva so ORGINAL XD

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>>15000153
>I don't know what that means.
There's no talk of dirac seas in Mazinger.

>Which was?
Pretty much all of the show. Asuka and Rei are deconstructions of what otaku want out of their female characters and how it's ridiculous.

>Which was?
Deppressive.

>Which was?
You can't love others without loving yourself, and without separation there are no others or you to love.

>Sans the psychological aspects. Existentialist how?
There's no sans the psychological aspects. The last two episodes of the show are about their psychology. If you need this spelled out or how Eva discusses themes of identity and being then you should probably just rewatch the show.

>Sayaka isn't much different from Asuka and Professor Juuzo still had that asshole persona about him that's no different from Gendo.
Now you're just being reductive. I'm not going to explain the characters to you.

>How is Eva's MOTW different from Mazinger? Help me here.
Are you being obtuse? Do you remember the Angels having a boss or forming an empire? Or being machines?

>That's just a format, the TV anime wasn't a manga adaptation.
That doesn't make it the same. Eva was an anime that came out of a studio of animators and not a big company adapting or collaborating with the work of a mangaka. They're completely different conditions.

>Mazinger is both an empowering element and also a horrible dominant presence.
Yes but Kouji has a choice. He can use his power for good or be consumed. Shinji doesn't have anything. He has to pilot a thing he doesn't understand and for which everyone hates him, or the world dies. He gets guilt tripped into pilotting. He gets hurt physically and emotionally because of the Eva. There're no positives. Eva isn't a demon because it's cool.

>If you actually explained how.
Explaining how would be explaining the show point by point, like you had me do. Because they're completely different.

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>>15001412
Why should I add? I'm clearly talking about Toeizinger which is its own thing, not Nagai.

Why does /m/ hate EVA so much again?

>>15001419
>There's no talk of dirac seas in Mazinger.
So? Nagai has explored a lot more sci fi themes than Anno, jus going by the number of actual sci fi mangas he did, which is numerous. Just because he didn't explore one doesn't make Eva more "sci fi". That's stupid.

>Asuka and Rei are deconstructions of what otaku want out of their female characters
Maybe for Rei, but there's literally no difference between Sayaka and Asuka. Please explain how they're different.

>Which was?
Are you saying that the Mazinger trilogy wasn't depressive? The body count is far higher considering plenty of episodes end up with people dying. The execution was different but plenty of 70s shows were depressive in their own way. Another comes to mind is Zambot 3.

>If you need this spelled out or how Eva discusses themes of identity
The very nature of anime is about identity. The chosen hero, the chosen pilot, the chosen warrior, the underdog, it's all about identity.

>Now you're just being reductive.
See above. Considering Sayaka appeared in a lot of episodes than Asuka, she's actually more developed as a character, but their personalities are of the same Tsundere type.

>Are you being obtuse? Do you remember the Angels having a boss or forming an empire? Or being machines?
Are you? Ever heard of the Mycenaean Empire? Ever heard of mechanical beasts?

>They're completely different conditions.
My point was that the Mazinger anime was an adaptation of the CONCEPT of Mazinger. The various mangas ran concurrently and they were their own thing with their own ideas and stories.

>Eva isn't a demon because it's cool.
As far as I know, Eva didn't destroy the planet like the early 90s Mazinger did. Mazinger is literally a demon, that's what its name is.

Ma + Jin = Demon God.

As far as I know, Anno only chose the name Evangelion because it sounded cool. So now you're going to deny everything Anno said?

>>15001441

we don't. We just hate douche bag poser intellectuals who see Eva and then make all sorts of crazy claims about it's accomplishments without doing any proper research.

>>15001419
>Explaining how would be explaining the show point by point, like you had me do. Because they're completely different.
Considering that you think Asuka is totally different from Sayaka is already indicative of your poor knowledge of the material.

>>14999737
Rei is a Chirico clone.

>>15001191
>In fact, outside of Studio Ghibli, most anime is actually looked down upon by foreigners.
Why the fuck does this matter again?

Who the fuck care what foreigners think?
>Anyone on the street has respect for Citizen Kane; do you really fucking think they share that respect for boob-flashing fourteen year-old pigtails inside a big red robot?
Most people haven't even watched Citizen Kane, they just like it cuz people say it's the best movie ever.

>>15001448
This thread sounds like it's hating Eva for me.

>>15001411
Well, yeah, Eva tells the world about the crimes of communism, and that's infinitely more than real than any of this shit.

Even if you hate Evangleion, hate what its become, or hate what has resulted because of Evangelion, you cannot deny the impact it had on the industry.

The fact there are people on /m/ who vehemently deny any and all evidence of that fact just goes to show how far /m/ has fallen.
This is the first time I'm going to use this term on /m/, but y'all are newfags.
Peace out.

>>15001419
>Yes but Kouji has a choice.
He had a choice to either become a god or a devil, he didn't have a choice when it came to piloting the damn robot.

If Shinji doesn't pilot, the world dies, well what the fuck do you think will happen if Kouji didn't pilot? Dr.Hell and the Mycenaean Empire would fuck the Earth up.

In fact, we already know what would happen if Mazinger lost control. It's all been detailed most recently in Shin Mazinger ZERO. ZERO fucked the world over so many times and the world had to be reset over and over.

Piloting the giant robot has never been a choice. Getter pilots were literally forced into piloting Getter. Where was the choice here? In fact, none of the pilots I know from most 70s robot shows had a choice when it came to piloting. Don't make special excuses for Shinji's situation.

You think everyone hates Shinji? What about Kappei from Zambot 3? The populace hated the robot and they thought it caused more trouble than it was worth, not to mention the ultra depressing ending. Or what about Grendizer where children are brainwashed to hate the hero?

Both Tomino and Nagai have done it all before Eva minus the psychological aspects and pretty symbolism which I said already is new in Eva.

>>15001465
Dude, /m/ has hated EVA ever since the board is formed since /m/ blows Tomino here and Tomino doesn't like EVA.

>>15001411
and yet it's barely remembered for that.
Impact takes longevity into consideration.
Evangelion is remembered for its statements on society and human interaction.
Mazinger is remembered for having a famous giant robot, and making the rocket punch famous.

>>15001469
That interview from 2000 really gets more clout than it should. Most of it has already been proven to be born from ignorance on Tomino's behalf.

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>>15001465
I don't care about impact. Even shitty shows have huge impacts all the time. All you fags are saying is that Eva had revolutionary content, which it doesn't, as even plenty of its ideas were bare bones (sans the psychological aspect), and even 70s robot shows explored more than what Eva even attempts.

You're the literal newfag here. Come back here when you actually watched anime before 1995.

>>15001476
Tomino doesn't really give a shit but /m/ does because /m/ hopelessly sucks Tomino's cock.

>>15001476
>Mazinger is remembered for having a famous giant robot,
It's famous for merging the Japanese spirit and identity with giant robots.
Mazinger is the Godzilla of mecha anime.

>>15001476
>Impact takes longevity into consideration.
I think I already said I don't give a shit about impact.

You claimed that Eva has revolutionary content. It doesn't, except for the merging of psychological themes with the mecha genre. That's the only thing I can think of that it brought to the table.

You also have to remember that Evangelion is a relatively new anime, so factor this in in your "impact" equation. Mazinger was famous for various things which Toei did right for the time, not just rocket punch and durr hurr giant robots. What the fuck do you think the soul of chogokin was? It opened up the market for merchandise way before Eva ever did with its waifu pillows.

Astroganger came just before Mazinger and faded into obscurity, so just having giant robots wasn't a reason for its popularity. In fact, giant robots in the early 70s was CONSIDERED STALE, and publishing houses advised Nagai against it, after 2 decades of Atom and Tetsujin.

>>15001483
How is that honor not given to Tetsujin28?
Tetsujin was incredibly popular even in the United States, long before Mazinger.

>>15001490
I didn't claim anything. I just butted into the conversation because you made a stupid non-point fueled by fanboyism and misguided hatred.

>>15001493
Because Shotaro and Tetsujin are two separate entities.

Mazinger is the fusion between man and machine and it becomes an extension of Kouji's spirit.

>>15001478
Barely and shallowly.
In that case what you're saying is that Eva did what older shows attempted to do, and did it better.

>>15001497
It's not "fanboyism". Evafags are the one with the dumb fanboyism and throwing bullshit claims around.

>>15001498
Shotaro and Tetsujin are most definitely not separate entities you jackass. Alone they are powerless, a huge point made in all iterations of the show.

>>15001503
Nope. I'm saying that Eva doesn't attempt plenty of ideas that 70s shows do.

>and did it better.
No, Eva didn't attempt them.

You're the one claiming that Eva did more. I'm saying it didn't. The only thing it did more was the psychological aspect, but the rest of it has the same basic premise and ideas.

>>15001505
No Evafags here.
Several times its been made a point that even people who hate Eva cannot deny the impact that it's made. Which is the entire point of the thread.

Most arguments against have cited inspirations, which is besides the point. Especially when everything's been inspired by something.

>>15001506
>Shotaro and Tetsujin are most definitely not separate entities you jackass

Except they are? Holy shit did you even watch it? There's a boy, and then there's a giant robot and he's not inside it. No, it doesn't change the fact that just because Tetsujin is also known as "Shotaro" somehow means they are the same entity.

Fucking hell get an education you dumb hispanic fuck.

>>15001512
>Which is the entire point of the thread.
I don't give a shit about impact. I think I made that clear.

I'm only responding to the buffoon who thinks Eva and Mazinger are totally different, but can't even explain why.

Like how Asuka is a deconstruction tsundere, and how Sayaka isn't, even though their personalities are the exact same, even when Asuka talks about Kouji in Super Robot Wars, it's no different from when Sayaka talks about him.

>>15001518
>deconstruction
Back to Tvtropes you go.

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will you people still be having this thread bi-weekly for the next 19 years? you've already got a streak going on

>>14999538
>So specifically, what did Eva change about anime?

Let's see:
>high school setting
>generic beta Harem MC
>generic high school drama
>stereotyped heroines
>yuri
>waifufag pandering
>other bullshit

YEAH, Evangelion has brought cancer for mecha genre.

YEAH, Evangelion is one of the three shows responsible for destroying the mecha genre and his fandom, the other two are:
1) Escaflowne a shit generic reverse harem that has as its main protagonist a shit generic high school girl focused on a generic shoujo drama romance with multiples shit generic shoujo bishounens.
2) Macross 7 with its asexual protagonist, multiple shit idols and moe shit, giving much more emphasis to music and shit idols than to action and mechs.

>>15001515
Anyone can pilot the Mazinger, just like anyone can command Tetsujin. But its Kouji and Shotaro who have shouldered the responsibility of such power.

Inside, outside, does not matter.
The fact that Shotaro charges into battle alongside Tetsujin is proof enough that they fight as one.

Mexican or not, you're a dumbass for thinking otherwise.

>>15001518
If you don't give a shit about impact, then get the fuck out of the thread discussing impact you imbecile.

Also about how Eva is a demon not because it's cool, but Mazinger is a demon because it's cool, and forgetting that Nagai actually named Majinga based on Ma Jin = Demon God (And Mazinger can actually be written with Kanji) and conveniently forgetting that Anno named his mecha Evangelion because it sounds cool.

Just go read the Nagai and Anno interview. It proves that Anno is actually not at as thoughtful as Nagai when it comes to the ideas he's writing about.

Good example;

Nagai's reaction to horrific scenes in his own manga = He does it to show the world can be fucked up

And all Anno was thinking about was how to get kids to vomit, literally.

All I can say is that Eva isn't any more deep and meaningful than Mazinger. Of course, it's a more condensed Mazinger with a lot of unnecessary fat removed, but it was made in the 90s, at a time when anime was already leaner than what they were in the 70s.

>>15001529
>If you don't give a shit about impact, then get the fuck out of the thread discussing impact you imbecile.
How about YOU fuck off retard?

This thread isn't simply about "impact". It's also about retarded fanboys making absurd claims about the show.

I'm only responding to those retarded claims. It's none of your business faglord.

>>15001529
>Inside, outside, does not matter.
>The fact that Shotaro charges into battle alongside Tetsujin is proof enough that they fight as one.

You're an idiot. Do you know what the fuck an army is? It's the same concept you dumb fuck. Yes, OF FUCKING COURSE YOU FIGHT AS ONE YOU DUMBASS, THAT'S HOW YOU WIN ACTUAL SKIRMISHES.

But you know, when they're not fighting, these individual soldiers are... guess what????

INDIVIDUALS.

Holy.

Fucking.

Shit.

You're dumb. Don't ever reply to me again you fucking baboon.

It went back to the good ol days of early Gundam and Ideon.

>>15001592
That's real funny seeing as it takes most of inspiration from pre-Gundam mecha manga that Anno grew up with.

>>14999835
>I would say it proved anime by otaku for otaku can be extremely successful.

But that was literally what Macross did in the 80s( it started off as a Gundam parody by nerds), they even got the DYRL movie which was a huge milestone in success and production values.

>Neon Genesis Evangelion was the vanguard for anime as an intellectually viable medium, for anime that take their audiences serious with challenging themes and ideas, and for the wave of anime merchandising that has been a staple of Japan for the last 20 years.

>However, it was the first to really succeed at captivating an audience and proving that its level of narrative structure was commercially viable.

Gundam already did that, as did Macross, as did Dougram.

>>15000468
I agree.

>>15000476

>EVA attempted to have characters that actually had inter-character relationships that went further back than episode 1, and deeper than blood ties or childhood friendships, coupled with themes that went higher than "X Villain is going to destroy Y place with Z McGuffin,"

Gundam,Macross, and Dougram all did that.

The West's idea of Evangelion is far, far greater than the actual reality of the show (franchise) in Japan.

I blame late 90s anime clubs, Adult Swim, and Newtype magazine/blogs/word-of-mouth hype, where everyone spews the same "it changed anime, anime can come on late at night now, it was a cultural zeitgeist" lines, because that's what they've heard and they read a really long forum post explaining why, by someone who has no idea either.

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>>15001389
>>15001402

2deep

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>>15001416
heh...

>>14999538
the one influence it did have is making people ask stupid questions like this online.

>>14999538
It didn't change anything. It set a standard for people to follow or copy, but it really didn't chang ethe industry all that much

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>>15001506
>>15001515
That depends on the version of Tetsujin 28, otherwise you're talking about either the original manga or the 2004 series.

>>15000867
Or they're phoneposting.

You do realize a lot of autocorrects love to mutate its into it's, right?

>>15001446
>Nagai has explored a lot more sci fi themes than Anno, jus going by the number of actual sci fi mangas he did, which is numerous.
And? This isn't about them. This is about Eva and Mazinger. And Eva deals more with science (or the pretense of it) than Mazinger. You don't get quantum physics or huge industrial complexes in Mazinger, do you?

>Please explain how they're different.
No, you explain how they're the same. Explain how Sayaka pilots Aphrodite out of an inferiority complex based on abandonment issues and has conflicting feelings about Kouji because him being a pussy doesn't fit her persona but she's still attracted to him.

>Are you saying that the Mazinger trilogy wasn't depressive?
Sad isn't depressive. Nor is tragic or futile. Evangelion is about depression, not about giving you depression.

>The very nature of anime is about identity.
Get the fuck out of here.

>The chosen hero, the chosen pilot, the chosen warrior, the underdog, it's all about identity.
No, that's just a bunch of cliches and commonly used tropes. Animation is much more than that.

>Considering Sayaka appeared in a lot of episodes than Asuka, she's actually more developed as a character
Yes, that's exactly how it works.

>Ever heard of mechanical beasts?
Yes, MECHANICAL beasts. Which the Angels aren't. That's my point.

>My point was that the Mazinger anime was an adaptation of the CONCEPT of Mazinger.
So? They are still different.

>Anno only chose the name Evangelion because it sounded cool.
It's not about the literal name you dense motherfucker. It's an allegory.

>Eva didn't destroy the planet like the early 90s Mazinger did.
Have you not watched the End of Evangelion? Plus, are you going to bring up all of the Mazinger franchise? Even those that came after Eva?

>Shin Mazinger ZERO
Oh, yes you are. You're going to talk about a manga where Eva is referenced DIRECTLY at that.

>>15001467
>He had a choice to either become a god or a devil, he didn't have a choice when it came to piloting the damn robot.
THAT'S WHAT I JUST SAID

>If Shinji doesn't pilot, the world dies
And if he does, it still dies. That's the difference.

>What about Kappei from Zambot 3?
What about you stick to one show?

>>15001531
Look man, if you're going to ignore my points, then just don't bother replying. You don't want to like Evangelion? You want to think it's unoriginal or whatever? Fine, it's your life. But don't waste my time. I feel no obligation to convince you. Just don't make claims then ask others to refute them only to cover your ears.

>15000476
>>EVA attempted to have characters who would the best self-insertion characters for otakus and losers that went further back than dating sims, and more retard than a person obsessed with 2D fictional characters or retarded passion between retarded otakus and 2D fictional characters. coupled with themes that went shallower than "X violent tsundere heroine is going to physically and pisologically abuse the Y Beta harem MC with offenses, punches and kicks''. -all under the ruse of actually being the shallow versions of those elements which it was attempting to subvert. This is not to say that shows didn't have childlike themes, stupid kids, or generic robot designs before EVA, but EVA was trying to do it all differently; using cancer and generic tropes present in other genres as ground-work to be built upon and/or subverted (depending on who we're talking about), and building a world that goes stupid and generic, which is never actually shown in the show, but alluded to senseless and repetitive violence from a generic violent tsundere heroine against a generic beta harem MC. Carcinogenic factors and stupid phenomena occasioned by EVA ended up restricting the development of the mecha genre in 1990s. But whether or not you think it's overrated (what forever it was) or godlike (which it forever was), it's influence is unmistakable: every anime studio everywhere trying to be generic and stupid using generic stereotyped characters, high school students, Drama high school, academy, waifushits, tsunderes, kuuderes, beta harem MC, waifufag pandering, and other cancer to get the public evafag late, which generally worked enough to spread cancer and destruction destruction more than 20 years because people only Dumber than production executives is the general public.

I agree

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>Eva ripped off Ideon meme again

If Eva is a rip-off of something it's western literature you animefag retards

Everything the Japs did is a copy of western ideas

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>>15001518
>I'm only responding to the buffoon who thinks Eva and Mazinger are totally different
Is that why you're talking about shows beside Mazinger that beat Eva?

>even when Asuka talks about Kouji in Super Robot Wars, it's no different from when Sayaka talks about him.
You're going to cite a crossover franchise? Really?

>>15001441
I don't even know at this point. I'm not really sure where these people that Evangelion is the most revolutionary thing since bread are supposed to be. Nobody gives a shit about saying anime is for adults nowadays, it's not the goddamn '90s. At this point it seems /m/ doesn't like Eva because it's part of its identity, much like how /a/ still has waifu wars about Asuka and Rei despite the fact it's been done a million times. Evangelion is a story about repetition, innit.

>>15001441
Because Evangelion is Evangelion to the public, not "a mecha show". Evangelion is the mecha show that made it, so /m/ is resentful of it.

It's like the same folks that like to shout "MADOKA WAS THE FIRST TO ADD SOME DARKNESS TO THE USUAL GLITTERY NATURE OF THE GENRE", while ignoring Sailor Moon or Princess Tutu.

Or watched Gurren Lagann, and thinking that it did it first.

>>15001905
>What about you stick to one show?

What about you paying attention to the actual point. More shows doing this shit means that Eva is less unique. These things where common.

>>15002014

Gundam did'nt "make it" ?

>>15001903
90s Mazinger is pre Eva you dumb shit

>>15002039
This isn't about "most shows", YOUR point was about Mazinger. Don't move the goalpost.

>>15002049
ZERO is, you petty asshole.

>>14999538
It turned pretentious sekai-kei endings into a trend.

>mfw the FUCKING KANCOLLE MOVIE HAS A PRETENTIOUS SEKAI-KEI ENDING

>>15002040
Not in the West.

>>15001518
>I'm only responding to the buffoon who thinks Eva and Mazinger are totally different, but can't even explain why.

exactly.
Mazinger is a true mecha action series for true mecha fans

Eva is a generic harem shit focused on waifufag pandering disguised as a mecha series for retarded children, weebshits and faggots.

>>15002057

Eva isn't quite normy anime though, not in the way DBZ or Death Note is. Eva happens to appeal allot of people who don't like the mecha genre, all western otaku know it well enough, but it never became a huge commercial success in the west like it did in Japan.

>>15002055
i don't see how kancolle can be called sekaikei

>>15002104
Exactly. Eva is a "classic". It's not niche or popular.

>>15002054

THE THREAD is about Eva, retard.

>>15002244
Don't move the goalpost.

>>14999598
>Implying Gamlin isn't the greatest waifu

>>15001525
>1) Escaflowne
Has there ever been a Shojo Mecha other than Escaflowne SINCE Escaflowne though?

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An opinion :
"Evangelion had a massive impact"
And that's all you can still recover about it because we now live in a post-truth era. Every source of information that are modifiable or not sufficiently unique have now been corrupted or drowned by half-truth or lies with the appearance of truth.

For example I bet you believe that Earth orbit the Sun. It doesn't.
...if you are a smartass who insist on using more a accurate description, like "both orbit the same barycenter as the sun is also attracted by the various planets' gravitational pull", which is only slightly less inaccurate. You can thank cracked.com for this mostly useless trivia.

>>15002996
>cracked
opinion disregarded, thanks for playing

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>>14999737
Rei is a clone of a clone.

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>>15001456
MUSERU

And then Asuka got choked out instead.

>>15001456
And a shitty one at that.

DESU Chirico is one of the few stoic protags that aren't just there, or come off as completely unbearable to me.

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>>15002996
>muh past was monolithic
You know you're the first step in the birth of traditionalism, right? Go cry about the death of God somewhere else.

>>15000443
Youre fucked in the head, just letting you know m8

I think it's more of a "magician trick". Just like a magician tricks you into believing you have witnessed something marvelous when it fact is something mundane with good presentation, Anno takes a couple of shallow ideas and presents them to you with a lot of fanfare and "dirac seas" (lmao).
There's a lot of dumb people in the world, you see. To that people, a message so obvious as "you cannot love others if there are no others" can come as deep and enlightening while it is not. Just because their own idiocy prevented them from realizing such a fact before.
Some people who are a little smarter can, intuitively, disgegard evangelion as stupid without realizing why. It just "doesnt click together" to them.

That's the problem with Evangelion. Yes it treats a couple things superficially, but it doesn't even get to question what is love (no pun intended with that lame song), what role does it serve, what does it mean to love or feel loved... character's don't even evolve around that. No, it just toss a couple of concepts such as "you can't love or be loved until you love yourself" and "individualism/individuality is the root of love" (pretty antithetical but ok, an idea that can be can be entertained, see Ayn Rand for both concepts), and waves them around constantly, without ever deepening into them and making them evolve.
It misses a lot of potential of what does for each character means to be loved, for example. Another problem is that Anno probably tried to talk deep issues while also trying to make his sci-fi coherent and hard, which definetly made him fail at both.

So a bunch of dumb lonely otakus will obviously swallow that pile of shit willingly, because it appeals to their feelings. Hell, they might even be smart people but be so down their spiral of sadness anything that questions love and suffering will make them deceive themselves into liking it as "deep".

/lit/ rant over.

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>>15005911
All you've done is parade around how much smarter than the hypothetical dumb otaku you take yourself to be. All you say is "this is obvious", "you're getting tricked", "some people (i.e. me) know better".

At the same time you are confused by a supposed contradiction (based on you thinking that Evangelion is about individualism and that individualism isn't antithetical to collectivism), you think issues are deep of themselves, you think is anything but "a magic trick", and you think Evangelion isn't constantly talking about what being loved means for the characters.

You take difficulty to signal importance. You think things need to be "deep" to be worth discussing, or that "deep" things are necessarily unobvious. You do have one good point which is that Evangelion falls short and never puts its understandment into practice.

You're a pseud, sir.

>>15006197
*individualism is
*art is anything

>>14999538
Basically, the idea that you can make a giant robot anime with barely any giant robot action.

>>15008793
>what is Patlabor

>>15002996
It is imperative that you kill yourself.

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>>15001925
>Eva is a rip-off of western literature
Damn right.

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>>15012165

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>>15012165
>>15012169

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>>15001456
This

Lotta useless wank in this thread. Here's the actual bottom line: Eva didn't change much in terms of content, what it influenced was not the content but the TONE of anime to come. Eva was full of artsy crap, and artsy crap in anime suddenly became popular right after Eva. It was the point where anime stopped just having fun and started being 'mature animation for mature adults such as myself'.