Why won't people accept the fact that Macross F is a great show?

>>14837235

I eagerly anticipate a thread where people accuse Frontier of several things while ignoring those things are present in other shows. The fun new one for me is people saying Frontier's cast hit every major fetish so as to draw in max viewers, which it did, but then acting like Delta is better because it avoided that. Which it absolutely didn't. Even 7 put in a lot of character bait in the form of Jamming Birds, the bridge bunnies and so on.

Because it's not. F movies are great movies though

>Why won't people accept my opinion as fact?

>>14837235
>Why won't people accept the fact that Macross F is a great show?

I love Macross Frontier, 7 and II.
So I guess I'm kinda strange.

Because even by anime standards, it is far too cliche and predictable for its own good.

>>14837235
It hovers somewhere between terrible and mediocre. All flash, little substance.

>>14837250
The problem with Frontier is that it tried too hard to pander to everything at once while doing drama and comedy at the same time and coming off as obnoxious and awkward because of it.

>>14837301
That's your personal taste. Good for you.

All of you who enjoy Frontier, God bless you. May you all live long fulfilling lives, but Frontier is shit.

>>14837305
This.

>>14837423
If they wanted to be cliche and predictable, wouldn't Alto have ended up with Ranka? Who could have predicted that the gay dude would be a badass or that Grace was evil?

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>>14837437
Gay guys have higher batting average in /m/.

Anyway, Frontier movies >>> Frontier TV.

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>>14837235
Because people keep feeding the trolls.

>>14837235
Frontier was a very fun and enjoyable show for me,but in a more objective viewpoint there's a lot that could be fixed.

The love triangle felt pretty onesided (though not as much as Delta's, nowhere near as much as Delta's)
The CG was alright, but it could still be pretty jarring at times, In my opinion it would've been better for the studio to take an approach to it similar to Fafner.

The story was decent, nothing particularly bad, but nothing too notable about it either, it was basically Macross' SEED, and by this I mean that it just takes the original series' tale and modernizes it.

It's Sol elements could've been handled better
having them attend a highschool while being in a mercenary group was unnecessary and just added in for the sake of having a highschool setting.
It would've worked better as a military academy.

It has decent characters, but they all fell into some trope, none of them had a unique twist to their personalities, or development.

Frontier just plays it extremely safe, it's a good show, but I can't say it does anything more than that.

>>14837437
>Alto have ended up with Ranka?
no because it was a rehash of Macross, so the younger girl had to lose.

>>14837476

If it was a military academy Ranka and Sheryl couldn't have transferred in to try and be closer to Alto. That aside though it doesn't have a highschool setting. It has a colony setting. That colony has a highschool, but it barely features. It's only given focus in one episode, and even then it's only for about half the episode.

On the whole I do agree with it, I just find it weird that people keep acting like the flight school was a major element of Frontier when it was an incredibly minor one in reality.

Sheryl is best Macross girl.

I still havent finished it. I just couldnt get into it. The last Macross I enjoyed was Plus, I havent even started Delta. It wasn't bad or anything, I just couldn't get into.

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>>14837235
The Messiah is unironically one of the best VF designs Kawamori has ever done.

Because it isn't

>>14837235

Because its not. The cast was largely terrible (because it was a checklist) as was the plot (what little there was). While it did some things well like world building it did many more poorly.

I'm sorry high schoolers who have jobs in a PMC is just pants on head retarded not to mention the heir of a major defense contractor is a PMC pilot and a student. If he wants a Valkyrie his dad could give him one.

The Valkyries (usually my favorite part) are far from the best looking the series has had the 24/25/27/29 all those silly packs its just so massively over designed. I would take a VF-11 over the VF-25 from a visual standpoint.

I only watched the series/movies all the way through twice and I will probably never do a third time. F is the third worst TV series in the franchise and D is 4th.

But I love every single Macross. Even II.

>>14837832

Wasn't Luca in SMS as an intermediary and doing it on behalf of NUNs or something?

>>14837835
me too.
even Delta wasn't bad.

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>>14837235
Because the show is just panderbait for people that like to be bombarded with anime cliches and tropes.

The movies were better. They cut the fat that weighed down the TV show and deliver better action sequences and set-piece moments. Also, the movies don't kill off one of the better characters.

contrarianism and oldfagism

>>14837235
I'm not a huge fan of it. It is one of the better entries into the series in my opinion. I prefer the movie version than the TV show, though.

>>14837918

I feel like I might be the only one who preferred the tv show to the movies, but then again, I detest the stupid "fated lovers" bullshit the movies introduce by having Sheryl and Alto meet as kids and Sheryl fall in love with him then.

>>14837953

count me for tv as well. Sky end plus that final episode medley was just too awesome even against the surfing Quarter barrage

>>14837850
Delta was shit.

>>14837886
The movies were prettier but they made the story worse and threw out any semblance of character growth.
Also they killed Brera off in the most steretypical, cliched way.

Better than Delta at least

It is a great show, there's just a lot of things that suck about it. Anime tropes and cliches, second worst triangle in Macross(first is Delta), slightly rushed romance, completely unecessary high school setting (Alto is a pilot why is he in school?), panty chasing episode, samey songs, Alto being a faggot, and one of the worst endings in the franchise.

>>14837250
Why do people even watch anime if they hate idols or tropes?

Frontier is Japanese fun.

>>14838155

7s triangle is objectively worse than either, and I say that as someone who likes 7. You wouldn't even know it was supposed to have a triangle if the official artwork didn't always feature it in a way the TV show itself never did. Also, Frontier did not have a high-school setting. I feel like that second part could be a Frontier thread mantra at this stage.

>>14838155
You definitely came into this show wanting to hate it. No one to blame but yourself.

>>14838168

>You wouldn't even know it was supposed to have a triangle if the official artwork didn't always feature it in a way the TV show itself never did.

I'm pretty sure that makes 7's the best triangle.

>>14838175
But I dont hate Frontier you idiot. In fact I think it's the second or third best Macross.

>>14838213
I don't see the logic there but 7 has the worst romance next to Plus. SDF, Frontier, and Delta handled their romance better.

>>14838165
Basically all the people complaining about
>anime cliches
are the people who only watch stuff like MD Geist.

>>14838298
Yeah I'm as much of an elitist faggot and plotfag as the next guy but there's nothing wrong with FUN.

And that's what Macross Frontier was.

God tier
>
Good tier
>SDF Macross
>Ai, oboete imasu ka?
>Macross Plus
>Macross 7
>Macross Δ
Bad tier
>Macross Frontier
>Macross II
Eyecancer Awful Tier
>Macross Zero

>>14838298

Yeah. Of the main cast, everyone may fall into an archetype, but none of them are JUST the archetype. Everyone has at least some other shit going on.

You know what that makes them? Characters. If you have written a character that doesn't fall into any cliche, archetype, trope or any other buzzword you want to use, it is far more likely that you have written something so fucking stupid no one else was dumb enough to print it before than you are to have written the best thing ever.

Originality is novel, but there are lots of things that are original that are fucking terrible.

Like, Consider Phlebes. First of the Culture series books. Its incredibly original, and does a lot of new and interesting stuff or puts a new spin on old ideas. As a book it sucks. The writings is padded and repetitive, action scenes can get so chaotic that I find myself skipping whole pages of it see what the outcome is rather than reading the nonsensical play by play, the characters are literally too dumb to live with such alarming regularity that I can't imagine how any of them survived long enough to make it to the start of the book, and in the end nothing matters because everyone dies and the other side wins the immediate mission but the immediate mission never really mattered on the larger scale anyway. As a scifi nerd I can say that the original ideas were good, but that alone wasn't enough to make it a good book.

I probably enjoyed Frontier more than most but calling it great is a huge exaggeration.

>>14838351

Wrong thread, dummy. Use the catalog next time.
>>14825544

>>14837953
>the movies introduce by having Sheryl and Alto meet as kids
they were cute though.

>>14837235
>the series gave more emphasis to musicshit, solshit and stupid idols than to action, pilots, battles, mechs, conflicts and romance.
>highschool setting, moeshit and solshit
>The two main heroines were stupid idols focused on music shit and be a fucking stupid idolshit
>Alto is one of those typical bishounen guys (that looks more like an woman) that are found in practically every yaoi manga.
>Alto is a faggot that it has no interest in women
I agree with you, Frontier is the worst series from the franchise, which not only killed the franchise, but also introduce an unacceptable degree of unnecessary elements to genre, thus encouraging other series so to use them in the future, besides attracting the worst fandoms and cancers already existent in other genres, thereby starting the destruction and devastation of the traditional mecha fanbase.

>>14838705
>I hate idolshit the post
Yeah, we get it you sperg.

>>14838872
>I love idolshit the post
Yeah, we get it you sperg.

>>14838378
>Like, Consider Phlebes
Yeah. I consider the whole Culture series to be a bunch of really interesting ideas written very poorly. Of course, that's always been a rather common problem with big concept scifi- great thinking, shit writing.

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>>14837235

>>14837622
>Sheryl is best Macross girl.

+10000000

>>14838705

> Alto
> no interest in women
> Makes out with Sheryl half a dozen times
> Goes on dates with her
> Is flat out dating her by the end
> Is implied to have had sex with her
> Has the most serious relationship of any Macros lead by a country mile considering the rest confess at end of show, if that (looking at you Basara)
> no interest in women

That aside, I think I'm just going to start saying SDF and Delta both have a restaurant setting while 7 takes place in an apartment. Also, 7 was the first one to put the focus on music and put less emphasis on the combat. It wasn't idol music, but it still happened.

I'm fine with Frontier for the most part, but the thing that gets my goose is the whole Klan turning into a prepubescent child with a totally different stock tsundere personality when she miclonizes thing. Just seems like a really forced excuse to shove a loli character in, especially when you've already got Ranka.

>>14839497
>That aside, I think I'm just going to start saying SDF and Delta both have a restaurant setting while 7 takes place in an apartment. Also, 7 was the first one to put the focus on music and put less emphasis on the combat. It wasn't idol music, but it still happened.

Did we watch 2 different franchises ? Because SDF is basically the coming of age of a girl that wants to be a singer, does a beauty pagent, ends up being a celebrity idol and film actress. And whose music puts an end to an intergalatic conflict. I don't know about you, but music is the fucking core of SDF. Take that away and you have nothing left. Seriously nothing left. A bit of valks here and there, a second rate love triangle. But everything revolves around Minmay and her music.

>>14839504

I think we must have, because while that's certainly an element of SDF it wasn't the whole or the core. The core was Hikaru and his decision to join the military as well as growing up and having to decide if he wanted t chase a fantasy or not. It's still not the whole and the action and Minmei is more than a little bit on the side, but it's more true than Miner's story being the whole of what I watched.

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>>14837235
Because it's nothing but trash.

"Interviewer: So we're planning a page for fans who don't know you (Itano) or the original Macross.

Itano: Macross Ace (the magazine this is in) is a damned bishoujo character magazine isn't it? I call it "retarded", though. Retarded character moe magazine. I think Macross (the original) was popular because of its balance, 1/3 each of cute girls, robots, and songs. But now they say mecha won't sell, robots won't sell, so they turn it into a character-based anime AND they want the fujoshi. I hate the stench of that sort of thing and so actually don't want to be in any magazine articles related to that bullshit, but I said I'd cooperate if they let me badmouth shit and here I am.

Interviewer: I... see... (tears)

Itano: I DID watch all of Macross F. It's not fair to badmouth something without seeing it (chuckle).
So, like, there's one bit where a sniper in space mounts himself on an asteroid, right? But by doing so half his field of vision is gone. And asteroids aren't stationary so his aim is going to be really unstable. And then they use sniper rifles at point blank range? I notice this sort of stuff, you know.
It's well-drawn for a TV show and they were trying, but the relationships were half-assed and the heart of the drama is way too messy. Last time we had Minmei become a human failure, but this time it was the main character (laugh). People who like this rubbish have a totally different sense from me, so I'd really be happier if they didn't know who I was at all (laugh)."

>>14839502
I wish it had been Klan and Ranka competing for Alto's heart. Because we know that if it had been Klan and Sheryle Klan would've been treated like Mirage.

>>14839578
>I wish it had been Klan and Ranka competing for Alto's heart. Because we know that if it had been Klan and Sheryle Klan would've been treated like Mirage.

Jesus, Klan and Ranka ? That would have been classified as a Macross moe-fest. Thank God, there were at least 2 adult female characters, Sheryl and Cathy (although Cathy is irrelevant to the triangle). Klan was always a moe joke.

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Ehh Frontier is fine, but it's the movies that are great.

>>14839589
>Ehh Frontier is fine, but it's the movies that are great.

The movies would have been sublime had they (Kawamori et al.) had the courage to actually kill Sheryl. As it stands the movies are certainly a bit better than the tv series but that is it.

>>14837832
>I'm sorry high schoolers who have jobs in a PMC is just pants on head retarded not to mention the heir of a major defense contractor is a PMC pilot and a student. If he wants a Valkyrie his dad could give him one.
Dude do you even Macross, most of the Macross cast are young. Hell wasn't Misa just 19 years old during Macross, and just Mylene 14? Hell in one of the episodes they literally say that a person is considered an adult in Frontier at 17.

>>14838012
If you mean Ranka, her character was one of the most frustrating things about the TV series.

>>14838705
The highschool barely shows up though, calling it a setting is a great exaggeration.

>Alto is a faggot that it has no interest in women
Alto chased after Sheryl because he was interested in her, the only reason you can claim him to be disinterested in women is because he didn't want to fuck Ranka.

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>>14837235
>there are anons here that didn't buy the movie set that included english subs

>>14839784

This is a precedent set by the first series through background dialog. In episode 3 two officers are commenting that they have several squadrons of Valkyries aboard the Prometheus, but no pilots (all hands lost during space fold). Whatever age restrictions the Spacy may have had were eliminated by necessity onboard the Macross; and since that ship essentially became the Ark of humanity, that norm was carried onwards.

>>14839973
Damn. I jelly.

>>14840120

It also makes sense that, even ignoring the provisions used during Space War 1 itself, humanity would be forced to grow up fast in the aftermath. First humans needed to populate like crazy and reclaim a totally destroyed Earth, that's a situation without a lot of comforts to coddle you into your 20s. And after that, humans spreading out to colonize other worlds would have to make do with hard choices in rough beginnings far from help.

By the time that the NUN stabilized into what we know and love, young people have had to be doing adult jobs for generations. Its the new normal. Especially given just how little time has really passed since SW1 on the timeline.

>>14839784

I do Macross and the original SDF was a completely different situation they had no pilots versus a massive colony fleet and a already fully stacked military so a PMC employing school children is again STUPID same for delta

>>14841153
Not a single person in the Delta cast is a highschool student.
The youngest is 18, or in the case of Mikumo, 3.

>>14841160

That's not actually true. Freyja is only 14 at the start of the show and turns 15 in one episode, which is an actual plot point. Reina is also apparently only 15, while Hayate is only 17. On the Windermere side Theo, Xao and Bogue are probably late teens too, while Heinz is 11 if I recall. Yea, yea, aliens. They're still teens and both look and act it since the life cycle of Windermereans is identical to base humans until 30s.

>>14839564
Name three good shows Itano has directed/created.

>>14841649
Angel Cop is better than any Macross other than SDF

>>14841153
Hikaru and Misa were both teenagers and Max was also very young. It wasn't like they had a choice either, so no having teenagers running things is nothing new.

>>14841160
Freyjya is 14.

>>14841683
I thought Misa was like 22 or something? Literally an old hag.

>>14841694

19 according to Macross Compendium, though 22 or so would make more sense given much of her attitude and story yea. Anime ages again I guess.

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Jesus Christ, moe fags and idol fags are autistic comedians

>>14841729
Fuck off anon, "MOE SHIT" was the cancer that "KILLED" the franchise

>>14841683

Again based on the situation in SDFM it was acceptable but its not acceptable in F. The fleet is not short of pilots and has millions as opposed to 50,000 citizens to draw from, children should not be going to war in F.
Battlestar Galactica remake dealt with this as well they needed new viper pilots eventually.

Compounding the fact is a PMC (a corporation) is hiring children who are actively attending school to fight wars. Its just stupid on every level.

>>14841806
Hikaru was 16 when he joined the military and Earth was still alive at the time.

>>14841687
Freyja is 15 actually and in human years she's probably in her late 40s.

>>14841806
Considering how much peril they seems to find themselves in why the hell would they raise the age restriction for joining the military?

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>>14837235
>Macross F is a great show

"Great" is a strong word. I'd rate it a 7.5/10. The production value is there, but it was too mainstream for it to be remarkable. I hate to be the guy to throw around buzzwords like "panderbait" and "moeshit" although it unfortunately applies to Macross F. I can't hate on it for being financially successful because of that. It's very by-the-numbers and it to its credit it does it well. The thing is that I just can't find anything that makes memorable.

I do like the movies a little more, though. They cranked up the production value just a little bit more and compressed base plot line that while making changes to certain plot elements to make it more interesting (and if you've already seen the TV run, you might welcome the changes so as not to consider it as just another compilation movie). Overall I think the movies are simply a better version of the Macross F story.

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>>14841806

But how will teenage boys self-insert if they only used adult professionals with actual training instead of randomer underage male high schoolers that are <4% of the population?

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>>14837235

>>14842129
Basara was a rock star who actively told the military to fuck off.
Mylene was a 14 year old.
Veffidas is some mysterious Zentradi streetfighter/drummer.
Hardly professionals.

>>14842129
They've shounen, ecchi, harem to do this.

>>14842134
I like how it says the pictured characters killed the franchise while including Minmay who was in the original Macross.

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>>14842134
>The cancer that killed the Macross franchise and the mecha genre

Sharon Apple is the only good idol according to that image

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>>14842134
Damn I always knew SDF ruined mecha. Now I know thanks to this image.

>>14841856

See >>14841531, and in human years she's 15 too - because Windermereans don't really age differently from humans socially or biologically until the point they die. The only major difference is that they get stabbing instead of wrinkles, but equivalent ages until the late 20s at leadt tend to act the same.

>>14842473
I'm pretty sure we all know this but it's fun to think that Hayate hooked up with old woman. The show should have played with this idea imo.

>>14841853

They weren't on Earth you retard they were trapped on a ship with 50k civilians and a critical shortage of pilots and a much smaller pool of candidates. So beggars cant be choosers its serve or die.

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>>14837622
>>14839413

>>14837953
Me too

Is this really /m/? Why do people even respond to this retard? Absolute majority of mecha anime has young (as in school highschool age) main characters. The age of main character matches the age of target audience (physical or mental).

Frontier has older cast than half of the gundams out there. SMS used highschool students because they were more talented than old guys, simple as that. It's more realistic than town built inside Macross and all other bullshit they pulled in SDF.

>>14837235
>Why won't people accept the fact that Macross F is a great show?
Because it's mainstream and popular.

>>14843890
>realismfags
You were already BTFO by Itano moe retard >>14839564

>>14843918

Like anyone pays any attention to his hypocritical ramblings.

>>14837622
No that's Basara

>>14843355

Not him, but it's probably a legacy of the unification wars. Shin and Edgar were 18 and 19 respectively and seemed to be experienced pilots of some time despite their age. A few years later when SDF takes place two of the bridge bunnies (Kim and Shammy) are only 18, while Misa is only a bit older at 19. The other main bridge bunny isn't given an age, but doesn't look much older and the three girls assigned to the pin point barrier and doubling as bridge bunnies all look about the same age. So while Global, Claudia and Roy all have reasonable ages, 7 staff members on the SDF-1 are almost certainly under 20, and that's before they leave Earth and get involved in a conflict with the Zentradi.

A couple of decades later in 7 Mylene is supposedly an adult with a drivers licence whom Millia is trying to arrange a marriage for at age 14.

The setting just trends young, presumably to be more relatable for the intended audience in reality, but it's explained in universe by the occurrence of a couple of devastating wars that nearly wiped humanity out. They're much more widespread by Frontier, but the precedent has already been laid down and society operates off it still. Alto, Michael and Luca are in school, but it's a flight school with a focus on EX-Gear and presumably acts as a filter for the military. Alto was asked to be a pilot due to skill, while Luca is one because he acts as a corporate link and leaks info to NUNs if I recall.

Oh, and looking up Edgar made me aware his second name is La Salle and he's probably Claudia's brother. Which I had not known. That's kinda neat.

>>14837622
>Sheryl is best Macross girl.
NO, Sheryl and Freyja are the characters more overestimated from macross franchise

>>14843890
Are you a spic? Or a gook?

It's a very solid show. It's very by the numbers and did everything in a very safe and inoffensive way, Granted, it has its share of problems, but the execution was great for the most part, and when it gets good, it gets real good.

Also helps that VF-25 is the second sexiest thing Kawamori has designed other than the 19 and Sheryl being best girl. And It has the my favorite finale/climax sequence out of the series IMO.

>>14842134
>Basara

10 out of fucking 10

>>14844114
No not really. Truth be told, their are only 3 best girls in Macross and that's Misa, Sheryl, and Freyja. Even if you don't like them, they're best by default because the other main girls are fucking garbage.

>>14844675

Freyja is garbage too. As is any list that doesn't include Millia.

>>14844701
>Freyja is garbage
Sure if you're an idiot.

>>14844701
Why would Millia be on a list? She's never been an MC and all she's got going for her is being a good pilot and nice tits. Sheryl and Freyja are better than that. Misa is best though.

Did Delta kill Macross?

>>14845203
No.
When did disliking something suddenly mean its a commercial flop

>>14844850

Because his list wasn't "best main character females of Macross", it was "best girls of Macross" - which isn't limited to main characters. And Millia is certainly not limited to piloting and tits in 7, where she displays a lot more character as Mylene's mom, trying to set her daughter up, training Basara, being Mayor, singing because she has the cold and so on.

>>14845203
No. I hope they learn a lesson from delta though.

>>14845209
When most fans dislike it?

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I was about to write out my opinion out.

Then, I realized that I do this in every thread related to Macross Frontier. Why? Because you fuckboys dig the conversation up and go through its motions. One will state it is shit through and through, another will say it's okay, and yet another will say it's the best of the franchise. We will argue about whether or not Sheryl or Ranka is best girl, one argument being Sheryl is a slut, the opposing argument stating Ranka is tiny bitchy dumb girl. Then some smug cunt decides to be a contrarian and bring up pink-haired bitch from Pixie Squad. Then the giantess fags will come in and spam picture of Klan Klan, and following that, the loli fags will swoop in and spam loli klan klan.

I could follow the motions as well. I've it boiled down to a goddamn recipe: tv show okay, movies great, Sheryl best, animation is good, ect.

But I won't. This wastes too much of my fucking time.

I'll just make a review like every other fuckboy on the internet. I'm going to analyze the shit out of the series and the movies. I will finally get around to reading the translated interviews with Kawamori.

I will go through this fucking show step by step, centimeter by centimeter so that when the time comes, I won't have to write an essay or engage in some pointless debate.

All I'd have to do is link my fucking video and get back to something productive(or at least fun), knowing that my opinion is heard.

You guys have developed the new definition of insanity: Discussing the same topic in the same fashion and in the same sequence verbatim, and doing so with such vigor as to imply you actually think this is an enlightening and worthwhile topic to discuss.

Have some fucking Klan.

>>14845634
Do they?
You can't use /m/ to measure reception of anime.

>>14845203
>>14845209
>>14845634
>>14845834
Did it make fucking money or not? That's what matters.

>>14845203
>Did Delta kill Macross?

No but it killed a lot of the autistic Macross fandom.

>>14845634
>When most fans dislike it?
/m/ is not the entirety of the macross fandom.

>>14845845
It didn't.

>>14846011
proof a doodle doo

>>14845845
We don't know yet, but given the fact that there are 5 idols, 6 variable fighters, and at least 4 more figmas to release, not to mention that many times the amount of non-figma, non-plamo merchandise like dakis, books, manga, etc to be made of Delta, I say it'll be the most fucking successful Macross ever.

>>14846022
Manga isn't selling for sure. Neither is the game or the models. Delta is a flop.

>>14846086
I repeat, do you have proofs, numbers, hard data to back this up?

>>14846086
>Neither is the game
I can confirm it. So far Delta's PS Vita game sold 0 (zero) copies. What a flop!

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>>14837235
I wouldn't say "great", but it's definitely a good and highly enjoyable show that had a clear end goals and a clear idea about how it was going to develop the story and characters to get there, which is more than you can expect from most anime.

I think people don't like complementing Frontier because A) it's a modern anime that many watched live rather than watched long after it aired B) it's an anime they watched on 4chan, so nitpickers always blow things out of proportion. Things that people insult Frontier of (and not just Frontier, but any show that's aired or is airing in the age of the internet), they'll quick to forgive for older shows. C) It's highly popular.

>>14846022
>most fucking successful Macross ever.
There is no way Delta is commercially more successful than Frontier. More idols and variations of the same VF =/= more sales. Frontier was fucking huge, it was everywhere and it had shitton of merch too. Frontier sold 5x more BD/DVDs, 1.5x/2x more CDs (wk1) for its 2 albums, Frontier TV had 6 singles compared to Delta's 2. We don't have numbers for merch and shit, but Delta's figurines don't do really well in amazon rankings.

>>14846436
Delta's DVD/Blu-Ray sales aren't even half of Frontier's. And isn't getting half as much products as Frontier did either.

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>>14846436
Frontier was so popular it literally had it's own jewelry collection.

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>>14837235
I'll agree with great but it could have been even greater.
Even if the younger cast isn't a problem, their pandering to certain tropes greatly damaged the plot and the spacing.

To give subjective & personal opinion :
> Getting rid of the "moe" Klan and switching their relationship problem would have prevented it to look like pedobait
> Getting rid of the absolutely pointless "Sheryl at school" fanservice episode would have cleared a whole episode so the ending didn't need to be rushed.

There's probably another thing I missed but those would have made a big difference.
Aside, it didn't help to remake two movies of the stuff, pure pandering. It's like their only point was for the shipping
The original leaving on Alto NOT decided on one of the girl was pure genius ! The girls don't even ASK for him to choose ! They just want to win !
(Polygamy end is win !)

Girls are icky so Frontier is shit.

Good thing there are no girls in the animation masterpiece that is SDF.
I should watch it some day.

>>14847055
No, the movies was made because they wanted to explore more parts that they never got a chance to in the TV series.

The problem with the TV series is that they got too distracted with Ranka's "rise to fame" subplot that they put everything else on the back burner.

Beyond that it was confirmed years ago that there is no harem end. Or at least not one including Ranka.

>>14841806
Mylene Jenius got her drivers license at 10 along with her red sports car bought by daddy Max.

At age 14 Milia is nagging her with marriage interviews.

Remember only a million humans survived Space War 1 and they had to repopulate with cloning and baby making making. Shammy had 11 kids herself. They even had to stop cloning in 2030 as kids were having hereditary diseases.

Gamlin was 15 when he first began training as a military pilot.

A VF racer in Macross the Ride started his career when he was only 13.

Earth humanity do not have the numbers to coddle its young to maturity as they need a labor force as they were almost rendered extinct. Unlike the other races Earthers do not restrict their population on one homeworld. Their survival strategy is make as many colonized planets there is so nobody can get all of them.

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>>14847164
You are talking of a totally fictional setting with alien and teeenager pilot yet I see no flaw in your logic.

>>14847130
I did say the spacing was bad (could have got rid of the Miss Macross as well) and the "harem" thing was just me joking. But it was goddamned time a show don't ship a character just because the tropes will sell better.
No wonder the movies went overboard in the other direction to compensate.

>>14847202
From what I remember despite initially the Ranka was the character that was more heavily marketed, she initially got a lot more merchandise and magazine spreads during the tv series. Hilariously and ironically enough though, Sheryl ended up being vastly more popular despite not being pushed as hard. But Ranka was initially expected to be more popular that much is obvious. Kawamori ultimately decided not have Alto choose simply because it couldn't fit in the scene.

The movies weren't any more overt than the anime, they just had less time to tell the story, and remember the anime especially since Sheryl and Alto aren't the type to fall in love at first sight.

>>14847055
>> Getting rid of the absolutely pointless "Sheryl at school" fanservice episode would have cleared a whole episode so the ending didn't need to be rushed.

The point of that episode was to introduce Ai-kun, who would end up saving all of humanity from the Vajra.

>>14846636
probably because I'm a westerner, I cannot imagine a show like Macross being so popular in the west it warrants its own jewlery line.

Is it in a sort of "geek chic" way, were only those geeky people wear it and that's who its sold to? Or was my giant robot cartoon way more popular than I think it was?

becvause Frontier had a deal with fucking pizza hut.

what kind of world do we live in?

>>14847055

The "Sheryl at School" episode was both not an entire episode and not actually pointless. It's only about half an episode at most for a start, with Ranka's at the time seemingly hopeless career, meeting Ai and so on taking up some of the episode, along with Leon being mysterious and other things. It's also used to establish Sheryl as kind of stubborn, since she wants to learn how to use EX-Gear and doesn't take instruction well, and refuses to let others help her when chasing Ai and more importantly her decision to enroll is an obvious step up in her attraction to Alto and played against Ranka also enrolling that episode, over shadowing her quite literally at that moment - especially when Ranka's tv spot is cancelled in favor of a Sheryl thing later in the episode. She has arranged encouters with Alto prior to that, but enrolling in his school and then spending as much time as possible learning the things he does is a step forward. While the events don't have to set at the school, that step has to be there in some fashion regardless.

>>14847265

Alto did choose though. There wasn't a scene where one of them asks him to choose and he throws a pokeball at their heart while going "X I choose you!". or something like the Ranka scene in the movies where the decision is made overt at the climax, but when he finds out Sheryl is dying he promises he'll stay with her to the end and then in the next episode he promises to stay with her again after they have a candlelit dinner he prepared and he complains about how hiding their relationship is kind of awkward - in a scene shortly before hand another NUNs pilot asks if he's dating Sheryl and he changes the subject. Even before that point their attraction is mutual and they get pretty flirty and close at times.

>>14847400
>becvause Frontier had a deal with fucking pizza hut.
Pizza Hut had deals with Code Geass and Hatsune Miku.

>>14847415
is Pizza Hut the most weeb of restaurants?

>>14847418
No, anime is just much less niche in japan.
McDonalds did do this commercial.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5e-zAljAgqs

>>14843918
I make up my own mind. Wish more folks did rather than following trends.

JesusBuddhaSithis can give an interview on how much hesheit hates Macross Frontier and it wouldn't change a thing.

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>>14847415
And fucking MariMite of all things.

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>>14847392
Yeah, I'm sure you couldn't introduce a recurring cute animal in any other way than to make it carry Sheryl's panty around.
Wasn't there a point made about childish tropes pandering ruining the themes ?

>>14847408
Meh, I give you that it was half and episode. It's not the only thing at fault for the spacing but it definitely participate to the "fetish pandering" that is seen as its main problem.
As said, there is many way to convey something and some of them are both shorter AND more efficient at that.

I should stop rambling on that frigging shipping but Japanese-culture speaking Alto and Sheryl both putting "Its complicated" on their Facebook page is as alien as saying he didn't choose.

>>14847392
>who would end up saving all of humanity from the Vajra.
How? Gunning the fuck out of the head vajra queen is what saved them

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>>14847471
>Wasn't there a point made about childish tropes pandering ruining the themes ?
No

>>14847471

I have no idea what that last part even means. Are you saying they both backtracked on their resolutions and actions in episodes 22 and 23 at some point? That their ending is somehow alien to Japan?

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Can we all agree that at the very least Ai-kun would make the best tyranid player? I mean he did break away from a hivemind.

>>14847471
>pandering
>pandering
The whole Frontier is pandering. Pandering to idolfags, to mechafags, to waifufags, to romancefags etc. It's not like they went out of their way to include that highschool episode, it's part of Frontier's setting. They are all on a peaceful colony ship living their normal lives. And overall half of an episode of pantsu chasing is no different than half of an episode of pointless Vajra exterminating. Frontier never tried to be purely serious action/politics anime aimed at hardcore mecha otaku. It's casual anime for casual auditory. And SoL elements are integral part of Macross since SDF.

>>14847488
You are reading too much in their resolutions and actions, I'm just saying Alto & Sheryl lack of Overall commitment is so far from what japan is used to acknowledge as a "I choose you !" shipping that it count as "didn't chose" for them.

I'm French, out of all the kinky archetype we get stuck with, a one-night stand between close friend that don't result in a couple is nothing to bat an eye. But from all I heard from Japan...enough said.

>>14847492
Actually I would love to see Ranka keep it as pet... as he evolve into the super-archnotank of the first episode.

>>14847547

Alto literally says that hiding they're dating is awkward as they prepare (and shortly afterwards have) a romantic, candle lit meal and they spend at least two episodes and two separate nights together while talking about staying together till the end. There's not really any reading in to it to do - that's about as blunt as you can get. Especially when they have other things it's easy to see as dates before that point, kiss on a couple of occasions and flirt several times, all lending credence to the fact they fancy each other and aren't just friends.

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>>14847492
Only if Pitz is the best tau player

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>>14847538
I'm not dissing the younger cast that led them straight into schools, or the Macross recipe "Mech + Idol + Triangular love".
All I'm saying from >>14847055 is that their choice to insert some superfluous/downright bad tropes led to everybody severely underestimating it as "moe bait", let alone pedobait.

SDF Macross was grittier and didn't knew its own style, or "recipe". It tried to be an anti-gundam and ended into something of his own.
DYRL Macross is the recipe straightened into one epic resume
Macross 7 is a parody that assume itself but was overall too crazy/adult for people to find something strange
Macross Plus was gritty and adult as hell
Even Macross Zero ended up looking gritty, if not for the Ecology-hammer.

TL;DR
Macross Frontier clearly deviated from expectation. It was GOOD, but all I said is that it could have been "better(TM)Do-not-steal".

>>14847590
>SDF Macross was grittier
And stopped reading right there. No one would use this word unironically in Macross threads. People using it either trolling or downright stupid.

>>14847538
This.

It's not really a show for /m/, and it wasn't trying to be.

I like the pandering, I like the loli stuff, I like the idol shit, I like the highschool setting. I would not be watching anime if I didn't. It's a very Japanese show.

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>>14847569
Okay, okay, I still consider that far from japan's "definitely shipped" cliché but I do agree with you that for all intent and purpose -even in an European way- they are frigging dating.

We've passed the point where the details where relevant to me, also, I'm European, I should be sleeping right now.

Pict unrelated to whatever.

>>14847597

It didn't have a highschool setting. It's setting included a highschool that occasionally featured, but it's setting was a colony ship and a frontier of the Macross universe at the time - not a highschool.

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>>14847596
Anon, that's not because it wallowed in childish joke and giant fish that 80% of it wasn't trying to one-up "gundam" with alien invader destroying Earth, the survival of humanity.
I'm not even defending it, to me SDF is just the flawed prototype to Macross as a franchise.

Why do I bother anyway, next there will be a Macross with chibi character and some fans will become the new fanbase

Good bye everybody

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>>14847643
Is Basara the most overpowered character in the Macross Universe?
When your willpower and ANIMA SPIRITIA exceed even that of the canon Top Guns like Max and Milia, you gotta be something special.

>>14847654

He probably is. Someone should make a webm of him controlling a standard civilian model VF-1 two seater in episode one using the same acoustic too, since that always seems to be forgotten when talking about stuff he's done. He gets blown up in that one, unlike the VF-19, but because the unit isn't protected against the harmonics of the space whale's or something if I recall.

>>14847637
Macross is at it's best when it's crazy and wierd. 7 and Delta each had crazy concepts that could have made a perfect show if not for their individual problems. I had more fun with 7's second half and Delta's first half than anything SDF and Frontier did.

>>14847821

I can't say as I really found Delta all that crazy from episode 2 to episode 13. The first episode is crazy in several ways and I loved it. Even the following dozen episodes downplayed a lot of the more polarising elements though. By episode 6 it might as well be a different show, since I think that's the last time Hayate does the Immelman Dance, and that's the last remnant of crazy remaining. Even before them those parts were thin on the ground though.

>>14846089
Scramble, out in a few days, has an amazon rank of 45 for the limited edition version. That looks pretty bad to me. The amazon rankings for the mangas that were released last month were low too.

>>14847874
Oh this guy again, to you maybe but most of us liked it up until 13 and maybe 16. It was a fun show up to that point.

>>14847927

I think you might find that your most of us comprises less people than you think. If you did enjoy it then good for you. Doesn't mean me not sharing that opinion is less valid or can't be voiced though.

>>14847408
When I say choose I mean having Alto outright reject Ranka.

>>14847547
As far as Nips were concerned though they acted like a couple and were together.

>>14847821
Delta wasn't very crazy though, it definitely had less craziness than Frontier 7 and even SDF.

>>14847946
>I think you might find that your most of us comprises less people than you think.
No not really. Threads were more active in the first half as well. Sales were stronger. It was generally well recieved before it got boring. Never said your opinion wasn't valid either.

>>14847968
>less craziness than SDF
Son.....

>>14847982

People watching more during the first half doesn't mean they like the first half. I discussed the first half quite a bit, and was even pretty positive about it at the time, but the more it went on the lower my opinion got and when I realised a lot of the setup of the first dozen episodes wasn't really going anywhere I soured on it because it meant that setup was only a promise of cool. I enjoyed it when I thought that promise was going to be followed up, but not when I found out it wouldn't. It also made me think about how much of what I liked in the first few episodes was just momentum coming off the premiere.

>>14848001
Here's the thing. They actually did like the first half. Hordes of anons said the first half alone could have been fantastic if not for the second half. Some even said it could have been stronger than Frontier if it ended there. How did you miss this?

>>14848001
Opinions of the show were consistently high up till the last few episodes.
And even then, there was an almost equal split of people liking it versus people disliking it.

>>14847968
SDF's pinnacle of craziness was the majestic space tuna. Im not sayig it's gritty but it certainly wasn't crazy.

>>14846452
Just wait a few years. Delta will get more CDs and singles out, they just need to record more because they essentially have two idol groups to manage. And we don't know what Delta BDs will sell, we only have preorder numbers. Not to mention, a lot of money will come from streaming Delta in China.

>>14848053
>last few episodes
More like since episode 18.
>equal split of people liking it versus people disliking it
This is objectively bad.

>>14848068
Max had a knife fight with Millia after which he married her.

>>14847896
Well it's a PS Vita game. Nobody cares about Vita.

>>14848097
The first Blu-Ray is already on the market and it sold less than Frontier's. By this time Frontier also had more singles and two artbooks announced.

>>14847988
At the time just about everything that Macross did was crazy. The Giant aliens needing a transforming mecha to fight them. Everything about the Zentradi. Music being what ultimately stops them.

Don't be fooled by the fact that it's become the norm for Macross but for it's time Macross was insane.

>>14848121
I'm sure real life marraiges resulted from knife fights.
>>14848097
Delta sells fine but it won't reach Frontier's level. It can't be helped.

>>14848165
Other anon was trying to argue that Delta would eventually get as popular and successful as Frontier, but it's been apparent for a while that that's not going to happen.

>>14848237
I don't think any Macross will ever sell as well unless they pander as much as Frontier did. And get rid of the internet to avoid download.

>>14848271
If anything I think that the downloading was more rampant when Frontier aired.

>>14848261
>only <1000 humans surviving at the end

There were like 40,000 survivors on the Macross, and about a million on Earth.

Which is still pretty harsh but a long way from 1,000

>>14848300
There were survivors on Earth? What the shit!?!

>>14848350

Two of the Grand cannon complexes, either abandoned, non-functional or just not used, became shelters. The one at Alaska that fired is the only one used as a weapon.

Survivors were also scattered about at the moon/Mars bases. Presumably, the Zentradi didn't enact a total burn of all human assets until very late into the war, Earth's surface probably being the first on the receiving end.

>>14848368
suuuuuure

>>14848331

Are you forgetting about the civilian population on the Macross in addition to he crew? There were 40,000 of them left, compared to the 60,000~ there were when the Macross first folded away from Earth. They didn't die during that final battle.

Also a million survivors is 0.015% of the human race. It ain't a lot!

>>14846022
anon are you baka?
releasing more merchandise doesn't matter if no one buys it

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>>14847400
There were headphones and a fashion line for girls too. Frontier was ridiculously popular.

>>14847654
Yeah he is. He can sing to vajra, windies, whales, move moutains and lots of other good shit. It's a good pilot too.

We're not getting a Delta movie are we? This hurts, I really wanted to see more dancing battroids and HayaFre.

>>14848789
Kawamori isn't interested in making a movie.
He said the war would be resolved by Heinz stopping the hawks and Lady M pulling strings, which is as boring as boring can get.
He only expressed interest in doing a Wright OVA.

>>14848867
An OVA featuring a spooky special ops dude with a VF-22 would be alright by me

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>>14848661
So does Delta.
http://www.pc-audio-fan.com/news/pc/20160323_80472/

>>14848878
They look better quality too, compared to the Frontier ones.

>>14848867
Well it doesn't have to be a sequel, it could be a retelling. Hell just make the story focus on Freyja and Hayate like how Macross E only focused on one pilot and one idol.

>>14848271

Well Delta pondered even harder than Frontier. Or do you honestly think the Aerial Knights and Walkure aren't all designed to pander to different groups?

>>14848898
Aerial Knights=Bishounen
Walkure=Idolshit

Frontier panders to both these along with other crap like lolishit. Don't get me wrong, I like Frontier more than Delta but let's not lie to ourselves.

>>14837235
Because it is merely a mediocre show at best.

>>14848924

Frontier might have pandered to a broader range, but it didn't pander to any of them as deeply. The Aerial Knights alone have 6 different types of fujo fuel. And Arad and Ernest are pretty good fujo bait too. The show also might not have a loli, but it has a shota among other things, so yea, I don't buy the idea it didn't have as much diversity in pandering either frankly.

>>14837606
They might have spent little time at the school, but they sure as hell wore the dumb looking uniforms as much as they could just to make sure you don't forget that the show has a highschool. It feels like a shoehorned last minuted detail.

>>14837832
>The Valkyries (usually my favorite part) are far from the best looking the series has had the 24/25/27/29 all those silly packs its just so massively over designed. I would take a VF-11 over the VF-25 from a visual standpoint.

Glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. The same shitters who fap to shit like Exia are probably the same ones who also do it to the 24/25/27/29

>>14848952
Only the 27 and 29 are overdesigned and ugly.
The actual VF-25 looks good imo, and we never even see the YF-24 outside of a brief glimpse of a schematic in one episode.

>>14848934
What isn't pandering according to you?

>>14848975

Ask the people who insist every single element of Frontier is pandering to someone. Gramia, Messer and a few other characters probably aren't panderbait in Delta, but I could just not know about whatever fetish they cater too.

>>14848979
>Messer
>not panderbait
What are you smoking
He's literally the cool handsome dark ace character with a mysterious past, I'm quite sure fujos and or gay people are being pandered to there.

>>14848952
VF-11 will always be my lovely planefu.

Why was Delta made so cheaply?

>>14848943
Alto mostly wore his SMS uniform.

>>14849121
You can hand draw all mechas, spend shitton of time on backgrounds and fluid animations like in g-reco or you can hire one person to do all your 3d models and use series of still shots instead of animation like in Delta. If BD sales are almost the same why spend more?

Also if you check anidb/MAL you'll find out that in parallel with Delta Satelight was making another anime. Spring - Ragnastrike Angels, Summer - Scared Rider Xechs. Also they were helping with in-between animation for Joker Game and Rewrite. That's a lot for a studio with only 100 employees.

>>14849180

It seems like a nonsense complaint and just looking for something to complain about even if he didn't, since the uniform is pretty plain (it's really just a rather plain shirt and tie), and Alto, Michel and Luca are the only characters of any importance who would conceivably wear it. Ranka, Sheryl, Ozma, Klan, Geoffrey, Grace etc aren't going to be wearing it.

>>14837235
But I already did it anon

>>14848975

Making characters that no one will enjoy. Ugly character designs with irredeemable and unengaging personalities. People that, every moment they are onscreen, you are bored out of your mind and you wish you were watching someone else, anything else at all.

A whole cast of characters like that. Only then can we be sure that no one is being pandered to, and can declare Macross saved for true fans of patrician taste.

>>14849744
>Making characters that no one will enjoy
Klan pandered to lolifags and they enjoyed her.

>>14849835

So obviously Klan was not unappealing enough. We need characters that NO ONE will find any kind of appeal to or enjoyment in.

Only then can /m/ be happy.

>>14849856
Sounds like Plus. Plus had no enjoyable characters whatsoever. Same with Zero. Macross II too.

>>14849744
It's funny. I actually watched SDF Macross.

It was not manime. It pandered. It had human relationships. But I guess most of /m/ put it on fast forward outside the battle scenes.

>>14849972

Yep. /m/'s pandering buzzword is the equivalent of a /tg/ meme called 'dies to removal'.

Basically, the argument goes that any card you can play in Magic the Gathering that can be destroyed by another card is a shit card. It doesn't matter what the card does or how good it is, I can call it shit by saying that it 'dies to removal'. So the only cards that can't be dismissed out of hand with a copy-pasted unilateral response are cards that can't be countered, can't be blown up, and can't be targeted by anything. A few cards are one of those things, nothing ever printed has ever been all of them.

Bringing this back to anime, there is literally no show ever made that isn't """pandering""" to someone. Even LotGH panders to scifi nerds and fans of napoleanic combat or operatic storytelling.

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>>14849938

>Sounds like Plus. Plus had no enjoyable characters whatsoever.

Yeah well I thought your MOM was an enjoyable character last night.

>>14849121
>Why was Delta made so cheaply?

It wasn't.

>>14850213
I liked Delta but you have to admit its budget was definitely limited. Reused 2D and CG animation, quality, no more Immelmann dance, not enough missiles, etc. I know previous shows were subject to these problems too, but Delta pushes it by reusing animation from Frontier.

>>14850029
>dies to removal
>a /tg/ meme
>not just a Magic meme period

What's next you're gonna tell me they invented storm crow too?

>>14850228

No one invented Storm Crow. Storm Crow was discovered, perfectly preserved, among the dead sea scrolls. But apocrypha hints that Storm Crow ancient even back then.

Who made it remains a mystery, and its purpose wasn't really understood until Magic the Gathering was made in the late 20th century. It was only then that all of the pieces fell into place, and people realized that what had been left for us by some unknown prophet or forgotten god-king was the most overpowered magic card ever conceived.

>>14850029
Every commercial product has to pander to an audience.

We don't recognise it as fanservice anymore because it's so tame but Minmay wore some revealing stuff for the 80s.

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Oh come on, as if nobody understand why pandering is something special and usually bad

def "Pandering" : gratify or indulge (an immoral or distasteful desire or taste or a person with such a desire or taste)
emphasis on :
> immoral
> distasteful
> person with such a desire

highschool tropes were nowhere immoral, distasteful and went along anybody.
But one look at Klan Klan and you know the only public remotely interested are pedophile.
And that's how Macross Frontier lost a lot of value

>>14850360
Subjective. Pandering only has a negative connotation if you are not the target audience.

>>14848934
Not necessarily it just reached a broader range but to areas it didn't pander to. For instance despite the fact that Alto and Mikhail are pretty boys they actually didn't pander to the fujo crowd. You could see this from the one picture they had together and it was a parody picture, it wasn't until after the TV series was over that they began to pander to fujo. Then there's also Klan who was also more of a parody of a loli character archetype rather than an actual loli, she was also by and large mostly absent from marketing during the TV series. Most of the pandering in Frontier came from Ranka. It wasn't until after the TV series ended that they started using the rest of the cast for pandering. Case in point Sheryl, Sheryl was ridiculously popular among both male and female viewers, that's why she got her own clothing and jewelry line. Hell the whole reason why the Pink Monsoon single even exists is because of her popularity.

>>14850480

Yep. Though I would add a second caveat that it becomes pandering if the thing was included to target those audiences and doesn't have anything else to prop them up in the narrative BEYOND that appeal.

For an example in Delta, look at the '''relationship''' between Maki and Reina. Basically every scene they are in they are eyefucking each other or interlocking fingers or otherwise just being obvious yuribait. Like, to the point that it almost becomes annoying. But for all the time they spent shoving the fact that "this is the yuribait couple, yuri fans please latch on to this" in our faces, there isn't anything there. I don't just mean it doesn't devolve into onscreen lesbian porn, because duh, but we see no real chemistry between them aside from the fact that they refuse to leave each other's sides. They hang off each other so much they are basically joined at the hip, but they don't actually have any meaningful interactions. Even from an external perspective, no one else ever comments on how they are acting nor does any dialog address it. If you told the animation team to go back and redraw their scenes so they stood a couple feet further apart from each other, they would just be friends. Its entirely a visual loaded pandering method that doesn't interact with the characters or narrative on any other level.

Even in flashbacks, when they did not have this weird relationship, they don't really have anything going on. They don't like each other, and then Mikumo shows up, and then they like each other and... thats it. Such mystery. Great Backstory. Wow.

That's an example of pandering even if you are the target audience. You might not mind it if you are, but you break it down and there isn't really anything else going on for those characters. Hell, you could remove Maki from the show entirely and with the exception of like two minor scenes nothing would change. At least Reina contributes (kinda?) by hacking shit.

>>14850485
>Alto and Mikhail are pretty boys they actually didn't pander to the fujo crowd
Alto crossdresses.

>>14849232
Then they shouldn't bother making a Macross in the first place. Fuck Satelight.

>>14849232
>or you can hire one person to do all your 3d models and use series of still shots instead of animation like in Delta.

lmao if you're seriously dumb enough to think this is true

>>14850727
The thing about one person creating all the CG mecha models for Delta is a real fact, retard. There is a difference between creating a model and creating animation with that model.

>>14850676
But no more than you'd expect from a traditional actor. Peking Opera and Kabuki still use men for all roles.

>>14850676
Alto is a traditional Kabuki actor you uncultured swine. And he doesn't cross dress in the TV series.

>>14850846
>>14850902

And lets not forget that he left that role behind. Its not like its something he actively sought out.

Even in the movies, I got the impression he only wore the dress during the jailbreak because sneaking in the skirt-jets was more practical than attending the concert wearing EX-Gear without throwing up red flags.

>>14850598
The sad thing is Delta didn't bother to do anything meaningful for any of its characters. Why did the director allow this?

>>14851467
Because their names weren't Hayate and Freyja.

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>>14850485
this >>14850598

>>14850902
>Alto is a traditional Kabuki actor you uncultured swine. And he doesn't cross dress in the TV series.

That's not something I would have put as pandering myself because of how it wasn't forced into the narrative for no reason. Also a good thing to remind people that Kabuki actor were a things.

It's the rest (one ex : Klan Klan) pandering to moe's fan or jarring panty-chase that dragged down the expectation to the point where Alto "looked like" another bait forced into the show.
The most damage that pandering did was certainly done to Klan Klan, going from a characters you want to care for to a pedobait you don't want to be seen liking.
One can claim that this "anomaly of genetic tech" was a deeper message about looking beyond the appearance, but it was way too ham-fisted to achieve that.

Macross Frontier was good.
But it could have been awesome.

>>14851819
Wait, just because there was a loli that wasn't even a loli, you think that made the show worse?

>>14851819
Klan being a loli did have a reason to it, her stature came from a disease and was the reason why Mikhail wouldn't act on his feelings for her. Also it was the reason why Mikhail died, because if Klan didn't have that disease then she wouldn't have needed to macronized in order to fight she could have just put on an ex-gear like everyone else.

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>>14851824 >>14851870
I'll direct your attention to :
> One can claim that this "anomaly of genetic tech" was a deeper message about looking beyond the appearance, but it was way too ham-fisted to achieve that.
I'm not saying there was no explanation but that it was clearly pandering to moe & loli fan (it was a big thing at the time, moeshit was a common buzzword and Macross F certainly didn't invent it)

I'll do the devil advocate : keep the younger looking Klan Klan, flatchested if you want to drive the point home. There was more to Mikhail not replicating her feeling than her appearance, capitalize on that (Remember his sister, no wishing to follow her step). You can even play up Mikhail own Ego of being a wannabe womanizer (as long as little-Klan do not fit sexy goddess), she even already fit the "childhoods friend/sister" tropes.

At this point you could even avoided her cloning-diseases entirely and the plot would work better. Her childish attitude would have made more sense if she couldn't ignore it made her look like an actual kid, and Mikhail would only have had more to regret.

No matter how you look at it, even if the author "honestly" believed the accidental-loli would be great, it still ended like direct pandering and the show suffered from it (or at best the fanbase shifted toward more otaku). It's not like anybody was asking for Macross Plus all over again.

Aside,
> because if Klan didn't have that disease then she wouldn't have needed to macronized in order to fight she could have just put on an ex-gear like everyone else.
You forgot she can and did pilot a Variable Fighter even in her loli form. Her fighting ability have no relevance to the problem. (in fact I think most prefer her as a Macronized goddess of war so having her pilot a VF could be seen as a mistake)

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Anime without loli is like rap music without niggers.

Now I don't particularly like niggers so I don't listen to rap. Why are people still whining about lolis? It's 2016.

>>14851962
But she can't use an EX-Gear in that form and they were in doors so her being able to pilot a variable fighter is useless.

>>14837235
Because I was under the impression that a show had to be at least good to be great. I wouldn't really rate Frontier higher than 'okay'.

>>14850676
>Alto crossdresses.

No he doesn't. He's the 21st century equivalent of 16th century English Shakespearean actors. There is no sexual component to him being a kabuki actor. Now had Frontier stated Alto loved dressing like a girl 'cause it's his sexual fantasy you'd have a point.

>>14850240
>We don't recognise it as fanservice anymore because it's so tame but Minmay wore some revealing stuff for the 80s.

Minmay was nude in the first 3 or 4 episodes of SDF Macross. Remember the shower scene ? Full body nudity. Take that for a children's show. Today it would be considered hentai by the ANN shitposters of the world.

>>14852081
Sorry, but only people with taste are allowed to participate in this thread.

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>>14852068
Oh I see what you wanted to get at. You didn't need a loli to justify that sequences, just the urgency and the need for heavy force was sufficient, they could have come up with an EX-gear and still needed more.
Hell ! I could wrote a dozen different variant of that scene and carry the same point without a loli fetish at any point.

Beside,
> and they were in doors so her being able to pilot a variable fighter is useless
And yet they intended to get away with her macronized. You are missing the point, her loli-disease simply brought nothing to the scene. but you'll hear plenty of people who understand Mikhail's rejection because it is pretty justified to "not be into loli"

There's just no justification, pandering to shitty cliché may have attracted a new fanbase but you lost something in exchange.

>>14852186
Your brain is damaged by this site beyond any salvation. Your posts reeks with fedora level desire to show your "patrician" disgust with everything mainstream.

Klan was like 1% of the show.It's the same level of nitpicking as your retarded complaint about school episode. You complain about appearance of an absolutely secondary character and claim it made the show worse. So if she was the same character with the same role and personality but with more mature look it would change everything? How is her loli appearance drastically different than typical sexy fappable character which is present in every single fucking anime? Also Ranka is flat and looks a little bit childish too so she actually appeals to lolifags.

Your assumption that Klan was created to attract new fanbase is beyond retarded. She barely even appeared in the first half of Frontier. And more importantly Frontier's target audience was typical otaku fapping to cute girls even without Klan.

>but you lost something in exchange.
You're probably have at least 20 posts in this thread yet you sitll didn't explain how exactly it made the show worse. "It's pandering and it doesn't pander to me".

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>>14852087
Ha ha and Minmay was 15 iirc.
Nihon Koku banzai.

Well unless you watch Robotech or an American translation. I'm sure her age got bumped up!

>>14852186
>just no justification
>a new fanbase

Think that through for a moment. Loli is huge in Japan and makes a lot of money.

Is there a neoGAF for anime? I think it would suit you well.

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>>14852228
Insult, personal attack, exaggeration, you've been way more overdramatic than I ever was.

Since you sound like as if I "insulted your waifu" I can only suppose you are the kind of "typical otaku fapping to cute girls". Of course you won't see anything wrong with your taste. This otaku's obsession is exactly why newer series have been continuously loosing creativity to fetish pandering.
And what of the exception ? Ranka was the obvious antithesis to Sheryl. Listening to you if something is acceptable once, there's "no difference" making all the cast ridiculous archetype (I haven't even mentioned Luca)

You just don't seem to realize how artificial and jarring it is to force a loli in a setting that could barely acclimate one, or half an episode of panty-chase. And I'm saying that with Macross 7 in mind

Anyway, I'm not going to waste any more time reexplaining you, I've only got 8th post before, many other anon noticed the pandering.
You are part of the otaku fanbase ? Great for you, for us, we expected better. Sorry if we insulted your taste.

>>14851870
>was the reason why Mikhail wouldn't act on his feelings for her
Poorly thought out forbidden love plot, because Michael could just macronize himself. Problem solved.

You know, I wonder what other genetic screwups happen with micronization/macronization. Klan is an obvious example, but Exodel micronized once and came out the other side looking like broccoli, with a serious concern that micronizing a second time could kill him.

>>14852304

> half an episode

The panty chase was about 90 seconds long. About 3 minutes if you include all the time that cut to other stuff between when the chase started and when it ended. And more importantly, there wasn't one single piece of family service in that entire segment. Not a party flash, not a butt shot, no cleavage - nothing. It was silly, but acting like it's half an episode is silly too. The entire school segment was half an episode. The chase was a fraction of that.

>>14852304
And your post once again is filled with nothing but buzzwords from typical "manime" thread. You can try trolling facebook and MAL with those kind of arguments, but you're 10 years late if you want to use them here.

>You just don't seem to realize how artificial and jarring it is to force a loli in a setting that could barely acclimate one,
How is it jarring? What's bad about strange body anomaly in a fantasy setting with aliens? You still didn't explain it. And you can't explain it. You just learned that everything which has moe, fanservice and cute girls is bad. It's bad because someone said it. And you need to hate every manifestation of it just to fit in. You even used "we" two times believing that the whole community on this board shares your retarded views.

>>14852304
Not that anon but, Ranka and small Klan look like they're about the age though. Also Ranka was also designed to pander to Lolicons and that's nothing new for Macross.

The panty chase wasn't the whole episode. Also you're speaking for yourself since even SJWs aren't offended by it.

>>14852429
>You just learned that everything which has moe, fanservice and cute girls is bad

Christ if this were true almost all anime is bad. Including SDF Macross.

>>14852429
It seems that his main complaint is how things don't fit his fanfiction.

>>14852418
Hey... we've got that argument before, if those "90 second" depend of half the episode, you can get rid of both unless the school was somehow vital.
Introducing the cute Varja ? Bet we didn't need. All child don't have Attention Deficit Disorder.

Frankly all I'm still willing to discuss is this : Many criticized the younger cast and the spacing around the ends, "too fast". If we cut on pointless pandering (and "magic happen") we solve both.

>>14852429
> manime
Your otakuness is showing. I didn't even know that slang and you would look stupid if you actually knew what the hell I do watch rather than inventing me a strawman past.
Oh and stop projecting, it's not because you personally have a lolimoe fetish that everybody else is forced to be ok with it. Are you going to bargain to have half the community with you next ? How is that any different from what you accuse others.
If you keep being that defensive of your taste there's no point in discussing personal opinion.

Reminder that I liked Macross Frontier, overall.

>>14852552

I don't know why you're putting 90 seconds in inverted commas like it's sarcastic, but regardless the school bit isn't necessary for introducing Ai, and could possibly be gotten rid of altogether - but you'd still need some way to show Sheryl stepping up her attraction for Alto, from chasing him down to get her earrings back and no other reason honest, to arranging to meet him in his every day and finding out about him. The school section also illustrates more of her personality when she has trouble accepting help in using the EX-Gears and so on. If you don't want to discuss it, fine - that isn't pointless pandering though, and is a necessary step in the evolution of their relationship. The panty chase isn't necessary, but again it's only a minute and a half long and there's absolutely no fan service in it, so cutting that wouldn't save shit.

>>14852552
>Your otakuness is showing
>you personally have a lolimoe fetish
I haven't seen anyone using this as "insults" since forever. I'm not even a fan of loli characters, but I'm not deluded retard who watches otaku-targeted anime and pretend it's something else.

>>14852552
You're complaints are all bullshit purely because those things were integrated into the characterization and world building and in universe it wasn't always a positive thing and also not prominent. This makes makes all of your complaints boil down to one thing, you don't like it because it doesn't fit your vision of what the series should have been according to you.

>>14852552
If you hate Otaku culture so much then why are you even watching a series from a franchise that got its start as Otaku bait? Hell forget Macross with those views you probably shouldn't watch anything in the mecha genre at all.

>>14852627
Nah he shouldn't be watching anime at all.

He's like a Muslim running a nightclub telling everyone who orders alcohol that they're going to hell.

Unlike what you all seem to be raging on (if plural) I never held the argument that anime cliché or highschool cliché even had no place in Macross. I put 90 second in bracket because to justify 90s of chase you can need 10 minutes of setting. If you take it out, the preparation is meaningless and you can use it differently.
Time and spacing are extremely malleable in animation, you should know it.

So what now ? I'm persecuting all otaku ? How wait, no I'm supposed to be one anyway just for watching anime.
Big new : Not all otaku care about loli moe fetish, some of them can actually separate loli from "just a cute flatchested girl" and some of them even recognize why it can be a bother to see some cheap tropes forced in.

If there's an error being done here it's expecting some overly defensive fan to reflect on something they liked and not assume it couldn't have been more perfect.

My word for you : "Dudes, chill"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mQScjlXbBE
I'm out.

>>14852796
The only person who seems to be upset is you whose offended by the mere thought of fanservice.

>>14852796
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mQScjlXbBE
>CollegeHumor
Yes, get the fuck out.

>>14852796

Except it had about 30 seconds of setup that consisted purely of them entering the locker room, Sheryl opening her locker and Ai shooting off. The rest of the segment in the high-school does serve as indirect setup, but it serves a dual purpose in that regard and while it does set up the joke chase, it's primary purpose is the aforementioned evolution of Sheryl and Alto's relationship along with insight in to Sheryl's character. So you can extend that 90 seconds by a little at best.

>>14852796

Literally no-one is saying Frontier is perfect, only that the panty chase or loli Klan wasn't a major problem. And there's a big difference between those two positions.

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>>14852796
Kill yourself "please".

>>14851962
It's interesting that you'd post a screenshot that has Nanase in it, because she's an example of Frontier actually avoiding pandering: she's the first character we see in the show, and she's a meganekko with huge tits, but she actually appears very little and the ship teasing she has with Luca doesn't really go anywhere.

>>14853724
>the ship teasing she has with Luca doesn't really go anywhere
Except it gets super creepy on his end after she was hurt in the last couple episodes.

>>14853749
Ruka visits her at the hospital and talks to her regularly like anyone who has a loved one in the hospital would. The worst he does is kiss her.

Wow, how creepy.

>>14852179
>counting Frontier as anything better than average
>having taste
Pick one.

>>14854010
I'm sure you can name 5 mecha shows you consider to be great.

The only Macross I don't really care for is Zero. Delta wasn't that great either, but it might grow on me. Frontier was quite good I thought.

>>14839973
How much did that cost you?

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>>14837235
f=moeshit

>>14854241

About $150 from memory.

>>14839973
I had no money back then.

I have money now but I don't want to buy that shit. I'll probably buy a really expensive, out of production Chogokin Variable Fighter next year though.

>>14839586
Klan is an adult, and she's a giant besides. I don't care for loli Klan myself, I just want a Macross where the hero actually does get together with the giant alien space woman instead of running away from her looking at you, Basara.

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>>14853724
> Insert character with specific & prominent fetish
> her only point is to tease viewer and another walking cliché
> it's to avoid pandering

Yeah. Right. Keep believing that
It was funny when she outbreasted all Miss Macross

>>14855109
I thought you said you're out.

>>14854995
You mean Emilia right?

Can you believe by forgetting the Immelman dance they missed out on an opportunity to make Dance Dance Revolution with battroids?

>>14837270
I can't understand this, F was ok, but the movies were fucking trash for me.
All that Sheryl fake death was one of the worst thing I have see.

>>14844701
Freyja being hated is inevitable, writers are imbeciles.

>>14862149
But people like her. She was the main reason people watched Delta at all. You're an imbecile.

>>14857741
They fucking dropped the dancing battroid pretense past the first few episodes.

>>14862255

Does that make the converse true? That she's the main reason that anyone who isn't watching isn't watching because of her? Is she the reason it's home media sales are tanking then?

>>14865201
>that anyone who isn't watching isn't watching because of her?
You idiot, people stopped watching because the show got boring from all the damn exposition. You can't honestly believe Freyja is the sole reason for it's low ratings.

>>14865648

No, then why should I believe she's the sole reason anyone's watching?

>>14865648
>low ratings
Speaking of low rankings. If you check anibd/MAl you'll see that Delta has very bad rating there. But these ratings right now are higher than they were after the first 5 or 6 episodes.
Lots of people gave it negative score after preview episode because of "magical girls" and "AKB48 style idol group". But anyone who watched at lest few episodes would probably agree that Freyja was the best part of Delta.

>>14865685
Do you know the difference between main and sole, retard?

>>14865691

I'd like to remind you that you were the one to indicate she wasn't the sole reason first (>>14865648) - I just followed your wording. Let me rephrase it to match my question in >>14865201 though, just to assuage your hurt feelings. Is she the main reason people stopped watching? And why should I believe she's not the main reason if you're going to insist she's the main reason that people watched the show?

>>14865699
>you were the one
I'm not that anon, retard. Isn't it obvious from the fact I quoted his post?

>Is she the main reason people stopped watching?
I think this anon already answered you >>14865648.

>And why should I believe she's not the main reason if you're going to insist she's the main reason that people watched the show?
Are you completely retarded? Did you know how logic works? Did you even finish the school? Go learn what sufficient and necessary conditions are.

>>14865714

Nothing that you or the other anon typed about Freyja being the reason people watched the show has any basis in logic - so why should a question regarding if that she was the reason that people stopped watching have any basis in logic?

>>14865725
You're trying to say that if
(a) Freyja was the main reason people watched Delta
then
(b) Anyone who isn't watching isn't watching because of her

This is literally your post >>14865201. And there is no way you can deduct (b) from (a). You're trying to make completely incorrect material inference here. Now fuck off.

>>14865751

No, I'm asking if that makes the opposite true and only supposing it might be based on the statement in >>14865201. Hence why >>14865201 had question marks. And you can fuck off yourself. I don't really have a reason beyond you being a prick, but I'm pretty sure I don't need one.

>>14865761
>Hence why >>14865201 had question marks
OK, then answer is no.

>>14865773

Then what makes you suppose she's the sole reason anyone watched the show? As opposed to the fact it's a Macross show and has brand name recognition so it has an audience built in regardless of quality?

>>14865780
>Then what makes you suppose she's the sole reason anyone watched the show?
I already told you to go and check the difference between sole and main, retard.

And again, I'm not that anon. So instead of trying to find logical fallacy let's return to the original point. People love Freyja and this is generic consensus I saw from various /m/, /a/ and mwf threads as well as from tweets, art and newtype polls. And again from the same sources I saw that majority of negativity for Delta comes from factors not directly related to Freyja.

>>14865805

> it's true from my experience therefore it's definitively true

That's not a logical argument. No more so than me saying I've seen plenty of people blasé about the character and watching more because it's Macross than for any particular element of the show.

>>14865841
You mean people with the mentality of typical robotechfag and with generic complaints about idolshit and magical girls? Yeah, I already mentioned them in >>14865691. They disliked Delta from the very first episode and Freyja on her own has very little to do with it.

>>14865847

So everyone who doesn't agree with your viewpoint can be dismissed in some manner? How very convenient. I'd point out it's probably not nearly that simple but you seem happy to believe it is so I doubt it'd make a difference.

>>14865863
You can always prove me wrong by linking a post from any board, forum or blog. But you can't.

>>14865962

I could just point you to here, on this board and ask you to read any thread (including this thread) about Macross Delta. Sure, there's been a few posts about people liking or loving Freyja, but there's also been just as many in any thread you care to name apathetic or actively disliking her. Or providing reasons other than "magical girls and idols" for disliking the show and/or Freyja. But you'll dismiss anything that you don't like as not counting for whatever reason you want, so I won't.

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>>14865962

>>14865985
>there's been a few posts
>there's also been just as many in any thread you care to name apathetic or actively disliking her.
Sure, friend. I followed probably 80% of delta threads on both /m/ and /a/ and I can guarantee you it's bullshit. We even had regular strawpolls here. While not every single person, but still majority of 4chan Delta viewers likes Freyja.

>>14866049
Majority of viewers actually liked Freyja since the first episode. She just became more likable as the show went on. There's simply no denying that. She was the best part of Delta, second is her chemistry with Hayate.

>>14866049

If there were strawpolls they were probably on /a/ then, since I certainly don't recall any here. And while I'm not going to claim I was in every thread, or even probably 80% of them, I was in more than I wasn't and would have seen at least one if there were multiple here.

I'd also suggest most of the love is on /a/, since there's certainly not been an overwhelming amount of it here (or ADTRW, the only other forum or message board I frequent that might discuss it). That's not to say there isn't some, but there isn't a huge amount of it. Not even in this thread.

>>14866185
You can always check archives and count all the post vs/against Freyja:
http://desuarchive.org/m/search/text/freyja/start/2016-04-01

Funny thing is that while looking though page1 I found your previous posts. You're >>14818707, >>14818895, aren't you? You're just retarded Freyja hater. Those posts are so fucking stupid and no surprise everyone calls your bullshit and literally no one supporting you in that thread.

Just fuck off.

http://www.strawpoll.me/11305142/r

>>14866334
>Windermere plot
>26 votes
I hope those are missclicks

>>14866390
It didn't seem bad in the beginning. We thought they would attempt space genocide since Roid is essentially a space Hitler. Some even speculated he would expand the windermeran lifespan by draining the lifespan of the other races. That was until the last couple of eps though.

>>14866255

I did check out the archives, or at least the first handful of pages which is all I could be arsed to check out. And for a start, most mentions of her are just mentions of her while discussing the show - no feelings given one way or the other. The split between positive and negative feelings expressed in those first few pages is pretty even though.

As to the deleted posts you linked to? I've no idea what they are, since they're deleted, but I find it no surprise that you dismiss any opinion that you don't like as being invalid in some way. Which is funny since I didn't even express a massive dislike for her - just doubted that people watched the show mainly for her.

As such, go fuck yourself.

>>14866334

I really hope this isn't you attempting to prove your assertion people mainly watched for Freyja, since even linking Freyja and Hayate via their relationship they still come second to the music. And don't fare much better than the mechs in the polling.

>>14866711
>I did check out the archives, or at least the first handful of pages which is all I could be arsed to check out.
Did you really take that advice seriously? Also it's even because majority of negative posts from first two pages are yours. Or are you so retarded you can't recognize your own posts?

>As to the deleted posts you linked to? I've no idea what they are, since they're deleted
Even in that thread you were called out to be a shitty newfag. Go back to SA and never return.

>>14839564
Itano is a prick, what's new?

>>14866748

Oh, I forgot: any post you don't like is automatically mine. Or a Robotech fans. Or someone who hates idols and magical girls. Or who hates genki girls. Or we're all one and the same. So you can dismiss all negative opinions at once. Including a strawpoll with several hundred votes. How about you just accept that not everyone likes Freyja or was watching the show mainly for her and shut the fuck up?

>>14866880
How about you go the fuck out back to SA and never come back? Those are literally your posts, both from page 2: >>14818707, >>14818895. Your retarded posting style is pretty unique. And obviously a strawpoll is a better indication than opinion of one retard like you.

>>14866901

Again, those links aren't active, even in the archive - so I've no way of actually looking at them. And while a strawpoll might be more indicative than a single anon's word, posting one with more people voting for the music as being the reason they stayed doesn't help prove people stayed mainly for Freyja. So again, nah, fuck you.

>>14866923
>Again, those links aren't active, even in the archive
Yes, I know that you're a total newfag, no need to repeat it. But it's depressing that you're so mentally retarded you don't know how to use search field in archives (which I even linked to you) or at least use basic Ctrl+F.

>>14839564

You know that interview was fake, right.

>>14866953

It's amusing that you keep avoiding addressing that the poll posted didn't actually support your view. And trying to lump everyone that disagrees with you in to one samefag so you don't have to address anything. Even people whose only point is that maybe most people didn't watch the show for the same reason you did.

>>14866984
>trying to lump everyone that disagrees with you in to one samefag
I even told you how can you find those posts. Here's the direct link for complete imbecile like you: http://desuarchive.org/m/thread/14815545/#14818707.

>>14866975
It's not. You can easily google the scans.

>>14867008

That's nice. Now, about that poll. The majority were watching for the music, not Freyja according to it.

>>14867046
That poll isn't asking what were people watching for, but what they liked. Some people dropped the show, but still liked the music.

And that your post I linked is a proof that you're just extremely butthurt Freyjahater who can't accept the fact that you're in overwhelming minority. Again, /m/, /a/, 2ch, mw and mechatalk forums liked Freyja. Check both 4chan and 2ch archives, read the forums, read comments on anime related sites.

Also I'm tired so don't expect any response from me. I'm glad this thread has passed bump limit.

>>14867046
The majority likes the music whether they watch the show or not. The majority of Delta's viewers stayed for Freyja.

>>14867042

You'll have no problem linking or posting them here then.

>>14867080

It funny you assume I hate Freyja when I've yet to say anything bad about her. And that you post a poll to support your position, and then argue it's results when it's pointed out that it doesn't in fact support your position.

>>14867097
>It funny you assume I hate Freyja when I've yet to say anything bad about her
>Freyja being hated is inevitable

Why do you deny being the overwhelming minority then?

>>14867237
>overwhelming

I meant underwhelming. I'm going to bed.

>>14867237

Oh hey, thought you were gone. Also not me. Which I would have thought you'd know since you are so sure you know my posting style.

>>14867935
I'm not >>14867008 anon. But even if that first post wasn't you, it doesn't explain why you're denying Delta's viewers staying for Freyja. It's pretty obvious you don't like her by doing so.

>>14868036

> if you don't agree that a particular main character is the main draw of one show then you must hate that character

Not really no. Thinking it's possible people like the show for other reasons has nothing to do with my feelings regarding Freyja's character. There's no definite relationship between those two things. Just like there's no logical reason to go "You don't think Freyja's the single best thing about the show? Then you hate Freyja." Not thinking she's awesome isn't the same as hating her.

>>14868133
>Thinking it's possible people like the show for other reasons has nothing to do with my feelings regarding Freyja's character.
Then why deny that the majority stayed with the show for her? It's a simple question, anon. It's obvious that the majority of 4chan viewers here watched because of her which is what the poll other anon gave sorta proved.

>>14868586

Because there's no proof of it and posting a poll whose top result is that people liked it for the music doesn't count as proof that people stayed for Freyja. Not even if Freyja and Hayate's relationship (as opposed to Freyja herself) places second. Which is a simple concept.

>>14868616
The poll is made up of votes from 4chan users and anyone with a brain can figure out that watching the show isn't required to listen to the music. So Freyja or her relationship with Hayate is the biggest reason people stayed. She is the MC of the show after all.

>>14868693

Anyone with a brain can also figure out that just because you can listen to the music separately doesn't mean you will, and that watching the show gives the music extra context just listening to it doesn't offer.

>>14868721
>just because you can listen to the music separately doesn't mean you will
But people who dropped the show did just that.

>>14868758

Now prove it. Beyond just some anecdotes about how lots of people have said so so it must be true I mean.