Space Fleets

Go watch Legend of the Galactic Heroes.

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>>14738207
are they copying this scene?

>>14738245
"fleet opens fire from afar at an angle and ordinance passes by up close" is pretty generic

>>14738207
Legend of Galactic Heroes is mostly about fleet battles.

Heroic Age has space fleets of human battleships fighting Bugger space planetoids and Silver elf ships. And they use the power of their fleet to turn Jupiter into a new sun.

Glass Fleet is, as you'd expect, about a glass starship fighting fleets of other starships and putting together a resistance fleet against the neo-Catholic Space Nazi Church.

Tytania is by the same author as LoGH and infamously unfinished, but it has the same sort of big fleet battles and silly strategies used by the lazy admiral/hero. It's much more neo-Baroque than LoGH though, since everyone lives in the Galactic Empire, even the democratic planets. Also has the most badass title in space history: The Landless Lord.

Gankutsuou has a space fleet invade the Earth.

>>14738233
>>14738264
LoGH has terrible space battles though.

>>14738330
I'd say they were hit-or-miss. It basically comes down to whether or not they depend on an arbitrarily two-dimensional battlespace, and whether they involve things you can't buy things like the Iserlohn Corrider, super-dense asteroid fields, and currents of space debris.

Captain Tylor

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Crest of the Star / Banner of the Star

I don't remember a part where a single ship have ever been at advantage (or survived) an attack from several ship, even smaller.

BotS even start with our "heroes" as part of a formation of small ship doing hit and run tactics against a bigger ship.
And a big, big battle has them being minesweeper mook in a battle between thousand of bigger ship.

>>14738207
In Gundam they deliver the mobile suits.

>>14738207

Macross ships can be quite efficient occasionally - as long as it's not a Spacy warship, in which case you can kiss that ship and every other warship within the same star sector goodbye unless any one of them are either an Uraga or Macross-type. The issue is probably less of "it sucks" and more of "we don't have time for fair depiction for everything, just show it blowing up." I don't know if Delta has broken that mold yet.

Their mook ships behave like their main and AA guns are human-manned with iron gunsights, and as expected, are about as accurate as what one would expect it to be against hyper-evolved space bugs or cutting-edge interplanetary/interstellar fighters.

It's mecha series, not ship combat series.

You want space fleet, you are gonna have to watch Star Wars.

>>14738769

You are mostly right, but while we see a bunch of onscreen Spacy ship deaths, its strongly implied that while taking losses they are actually holding back the worst of it.

Think of the first fight of Frontier. We saw them lose a bunch of fighters and a couple of battleships to one-hit kills against a swarm of Vajra. But only a few Vajra (a couple of the drones, and one big red) actually broke through to Island 1. We know that there were more bugs than that, not just because we saw them but because some of them nested in the recesses of one of the ships during the battle.

That means that the generic spacy ships, while not overwhelmingly victorious, were fairly effective overall.

> I don't know if Delta has broken that mold yet.

Delta has shown some really poor choices in regards to where to dedicate its screentime overall. In a multiplanetary war between two galactic factions, the only time more than 10 fightercraft exist total in the war is when they want to show the Windies blowing up something. We have seen non-elite knight windie planes a grand total of twice in the whole war, which means that the whole of Delta platoon has been shown to kill exactly one windemeren pilot in the past 24 episodes, a nameless winidie grunt that was Hayate's first (and so far only) kill. Because the windemeren pil characters have exactly as much plot armor as the protagonists do. More, actually, given recent events.

>>14738330
The 3rd dimension is overrated.

To be fair to Macross, fleets of regular warships aren't that important in the grand scale of things. Those ships are relatively cheap, they get blown up in hordes, but they get the job done eventually.
The ships that are important on their own are the Macross-class ships, and those aren't cheap.

As for fleets, the only fleets that are important in Macross are the colony fleets, and only because they carry a fucking city and are self-sustainable ships that can build shit as they go on top of having a Macross-class leading the fleet.

>>14738985
Okay to be completely fair, if you are orbiting with any sufficient velocity, you are:
1, visible from millions of miles away so any fleet can orient themselves towards you
2, Unless you are fighting at some insane point like a lagrange area, your orbital velocity will force you to more or less engage on your already moving path.
3 LOGH is generally pretty good in terms of it's science, out of ten it sits firmly at a seven or eight, but it's not Planetes, it's about political systems not the function of a beam cannon

>>14738958
>kill exactly one windemeren pilot in the past 24 episodes

Does forcing that other guy to overexert himself count?

>>14739107

No, because they had no knowledge of it or influence over those events.

If they had KNOWN that there was a weakness there and exploited it to their benefit, that would be one thing. But it was, essentially, dumb fucking luck that he went down completely independent of any of their actions.

>>14739042
Totally agree, the science in LoGH is all about making the warfare napoleonic, and it goes about this in a VERY straightforward manner. I don't really accept criticism about it not being very sci-fi/ anything resembling space battles, because it was always trying to achieve something different.

>>14738769
Delta is terrible anyone not Xaos or Knight does nothing and the MC's have come down with a severe case of wing clipping because they care about the brainwashing super assholes more than their own side.

Every fleet scene has been like 5/7 Knights soloing the fleet.

>>14739157

I was okay with wing clipping when fighting the var'd soldiers, because that was legitimately not their fault that they got mind controlled. Its a bit naive, but I can understand it.

I cannot, for the life of me, imagine why Hayate has passed up the chance to shoot down actually Windemeren pilots twice now. Freya a cute, but he has absolutely no reason to think of them in anything approaching a positive light. They are either attacking civilians, shooting at his friends, mind controlling innocent people and breaking of families, trying to execute his waifu for treason, or PUNCHING HIM IN THE FUCKING FACE OVER AND OVER.

Even Basara wouldn't put up with this level of shit. If we were given some kind of reasoning for why Hayate inexplicably cares so much about sparing their lives that would be one thing, but honestly Arad should have slapped Hayate around for not shooting to kill by now, because the enemy is sure as hell doing the same to him.

>>14739273
Japan loves pacifist MCs and UNDERSTANDING, for some reason.

Probably because the last time they were aggressive they got two nukes dropped on them and were about to be spit roasted by the Russian and American militaries.

>>14739293

I'm convinced its to enable a forced 'we have to team up against the greater evil!' ending against Roid and his plan, which the writers were worried wouldn't work if the fighting between the two squads has been more bloody.

They needed to keep things casual enough that they can join forces in the final episode.

Which is a different kind of dumb. It can be done well, but its been so goddamn telegraphed that this is how the show is going to end I can't imagine the payoff being satisfying.

>>14739293
it's because American emasculated them with the bullshit constitution. if they hadn't they probably would have started another war with China or best/worst Korea in the 70s after licking their wounds.

>>14739273
This no killing crap is annoying in an MC yet it looks like all of Xaos is doing it. Has any of them outright downed a Windie other than drones or the one guy Hayate gunned down at the start to save Mirage?

>>14739293
Japan "loves" it because it's still under American influence.

It has to pretend its a nice boy.

Now that America influence is waning, more and more shows are becoming edgy.

>>14739343
that is incorrect.

if anything the proArticle 9 people are the ones that want to kick the Americans out and suck China's balls and realign with asia while it's the pro-american LDP that wants to tear down article 9.

>>14739355
LDP is only pro-american when american military give them aids.

Now LDP tears down Article 9, they can become independent of USA and now are supporting Russia.

>>14739396
>friends with russia

Not when Russia is friends with China and still has the Kurils. Again the Japanese left are the only the majors ones that advocate closer relations with Russia.

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>>14739396
>they'll be independent of america
we're not leaving.
when it comes down to it, they'll choose us.

>>14738207
the fuck are you talking about? the Frontier fleet managed to find a planet

>>14739455
Not true, Abe, PM of Japan and leader of LDP, has been courting Putin for months now.
http://www.voanews.com/a/why-is-abe-seeking-better-ties-with-russia-putin/1850393.html
He realizes he needs Russia on his side if he wants a chance against the chinky.

>>14738340
Where do you stand on Yang Fleet v. Eleventh Fleet?

>>14738656
Yeah, but BoTS is all about human inferiority, not humanity fuck yeah.

>>14739326
Messer tried to kill Keith.

>>14739326
Hayate nearly killed Keith, so there's that.

The shots were going for the cockpit, just didn't kill Keith.

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>>14739326

>>14738958
Why couldn't a Zentraedi main fleet just turn Windemere into space dust because they hate the protoculture and anyone trying to take up their mantle? (aside from MUH BARELY SENSIBLE PLOT)

>>14741299
I don't remember fleets of zentradi doing that

>>14741075
I can barely remember it (finished Episode 110 weeks or a month ago). I read through the Battle of Doria on Gineipaedia and it didn't trigger many memories. I was probably fine with it. I vaguely remember wondering if the show was inconsistent by sometimes portraying one fleet between two other fleets as in the disadvantage (we're surrounded!), and other times portraying one fleet between two other fleets as in the advantage (we've divided the enemy into smaller segments!).

>>14741317
it depends on various factors, and how the pace of the battle is going

disrupting their formation by plowing a wedge through the enemy fleet while they're still pointing at where you used to be

vs

having enemy guns pointed at you from all sides and not being able to move quickly enough to escape

not the same thing, of course

>>14741299

IIRC uncontacted Zentraedi are typically ordered to stay away from and not to initiate contact with miclone star systems. They are forewarned of culture not because they hate it but because the ancient orders left to them by the Protoculture tell them to not to mess around with miclone races - presumably because it gets in the way of them being genetically-engineered soldier species.

The whole shebang with the original Macross was because humanity was using a restored Supervision Army destroyer while bounding about the solar system (a Meltrandi gun destroyer if talking about DYRL), specifically one that Britai was ordered to find, log, destroy if not yet done, and report back to Bodole Zer's main group about. They wouldn't have given two shits about humanity if the gun destroyer had never crashed on Earth.

>>14741317
You can compare line of battle formations between 1660 and 1810. Nelson reintroduced "breaking the line" as a tactical innovation despite the fact that in 1660 the unified line of battle was the secret weapon that allowed the British to defeat the Dutch navy when they scattered and tried to engage British ships individually.

>>14741459
How did that order even make any sense? Britai spent thousands of years chasing this dinky rinky little destroyer with a massive fleet? Why?

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Just saying, it can be difficult to say "The fleet did nothing" when a show only consist of a few ship (each extremely important).
But I wish we stopped bundling the Space-carrier and the Space-battleship into a single ship.

>>14741494
another guy here, Britai could be seen as an exception or a different interpretation of the order.

1st : They didn't knew it was miclone before breaking in it to study sound-wave that incapacitated their zentran/meltran.
Then, either you take the order as "Ok I have to obey it blindly"
Or you take it as "not an order but a warning, let's study this threat so we can keep on being better genetically-engineered soldiers"

It also depend if you take the movie DYRL meltran/zeltran as a in-universe movie, as what actually happened, or mix it with the SDF Macross series just for the sake of entertainment.
To me Macross is one of those series that stopped caring about canonicity and just use whatever their universe as to make our 3 kinks : Pop Singers, Itanos-circus powered battle, and love triangle.

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>>14741494
>How did that order even make any sense

Because their standing orders from the last of the Protoculture, apart from "kill all the Supervision buggers", was to never initiate contact with other sentient species, a policy of no-interference. Zentraedi holdings on the planets of other species might even attract Supervision Army remnants who then proceed to annihilate the nascent species just as collateral while duking it out with the Zentraedi.

>Britai spent thousands of years chasing this dinky rinky little destroyer with a massive fleet?

Fragments of the Supervision Army are still at large throughout most of the Macross series. This particular gunship crashed on Earth in 1999; by all reasonable assumptions it was very much an active warship until then. Britai's unit only picks up the vestigial energies of the destroyer's space fold; his dialogue in Ep1 implied that he was picking up an old signal, echo, shadow, whatever the term for imprints of old and long-ceased signals are called, if such a term actually exists, and that he didn't actually expect a gun destroyer to hide on Earth for 8 whole years. He could have just picked up the signal ten minutes prior.

He also first showed up with only a handful of warships, and was gradually given more as the series went on. He wasn't some supreme fleet commander right at the start. Even at the end, Britai's fleet of 1.2k ships is considered small, relative to what Bodole Zer had (over 4 million ships).

So, no, Britai didn't chase a destroyer for millennia; he didn't have the might of an entire fleet behind him always; Zentraedi don't go around wiping planets of life, they actively endeavor to keep their distance; they don't hate the Protoculture; and there is no "mantle", humanity just happened to be the first one up and running in the wake of the universe's longest war and following clean-up operation.