Development of AC MS

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I mean, they're the best part of the show, but fuck if they make any sense in the setting.

>>14605279

They were probably developing new suits as a way to spend money, because it's in the budget and if they don't spend it their budget will just be reduced, so might as well fund some new suits, even if the old ones are fine. Oz and others (like Relena's dad) knew Operation Meteor was likely at the start of the show too, so they might have been preparing for that fight.

What's funny is that AC has no Minovsky analogue and Noin uses a laser from a low flying plane to destroy several Virgoes and help Heero at one point mid show, proving a plane is superior to suits even in show. There's really no good reason given for their development or superiority, to the point they'd come to dominate the battlefield. It just happens.

>>14605332
so if anything, Wing is a story about porkbarrel spending

>>14605279
Because they fucking could.

Tallgeese proved too powerful for their needs, and thus dumbed the design down into Leos and the hover "guncannon" expies, as well as specialized the rest.

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>>14605463
I understand that the Tallgeese was the prototype, I just don't get where the need for that prototype came from. It's basically just a footnote in the AC timeline -- "AC 175: The Alliance begins developing mobile suits" -- but there's no reasoning behind it in-universe. Pretty much all I can glean is that they wanted to show off.

>>14605561
Governments have done dumber things in dick waving contests

>>14605561
Noin said at one point that they were made because people fear large machinery but admire it at the same time. They were made humanoid because it made the battle look more human. This was explained in series.

>>14605655
Like going to the moon.

>>14605684
One of these days, America. Bang, zoom, straight to the moon!

>>14605676
To add to that, this sounds retarded by our world's standards, but in AC's alternate history where kids are basically indoctrinated into a military mindset from a young age that reveres the concept of battle and honor on the field, fighting in a giant war machine that essentially works like an extention of the will of the person piloting it might be a huge morale boost.

What better way to sway the hearts and minds of the soldiers than to give them a war machine they can look at and relate to on a anatomical level?

>>14605854
That shit would be a huge morale boost even in our standards.

Imagine if America dropped a giant, red white and blue mecha piloted by a badass patriotic Paragon into Vietnam that blared speeches about freedom while punching Vietcong.

>>14605279
The world of AC is very different than ours. In it the European nobility never disappear, probably the republican movements of the 19th and 20th centuries never took place. Or they were at sometime reversed.

However warfare developed along the same lines as our own, tanks, and missiles could win the day, making knights and the nobility obsolete. So what they did was create MS to bring personality back to warfare. A bit like how planes were at first at the start of WW1.

In the history of Japan and Europe knights hated that masses of barely trained peasants could defeat warrior elite with guns (or longbows in the case of Agincourt) MS allowed this to be reversed in a way. A single highly trained warrior could pilot a giant suit of armor.

Also keep in mind that for the most part the Earth's Sphere Alliance controlled Earth and the colonies and was more or less at peace, the MS also acted more to shock and awe the populace with how strong the Alliance was.

>>14605279
>>14605332
>>14605463
The Tallgeese could have been created for use in subjugating the colonies. Think about it, AMBAC is always a plus, and if its based of colony worker suits, it probably has manipulators which would allow it to interact with the colony.

The continued development might have to do with the rebels like the Maganac Corps (which is stated to be one of numerous such groups) who have their own independently developed mobiles suits which are stated to be better than the Leo.

>>14606158
>Also keep in mind that for the most part the Earth's Sphere Alliance controlled Earth and the colonies and was more or less at peace
Been forever since I last saw Wing, but what was the colonies beef with Earth again? Also how/why are the colonies there in the first place? Wing-verse didn't strike me as being that suped advanced, probably didn't help that nearly the entire series took place on earth.

>>14606321
Several Earth nations build colonies in space (so basically each colony is ethnically different from one another a Euro colony, a Chinese colony, an American colony etc). Some disease breaks out on Earth which I guess hurts the economy meaning that Earth nations halt space development. Colonies become autonomous. Later some massive war breaks out on Earth and more people flee to the colonies. Earth Sphere Alliance is created to ensure lasting peace and almost all countries on Earth join it.

The colonies were basically forced to join the Earth's Sphere Alliance (which is Earth-based), they tried to break free and their revolt was severely crushed. After that communication between colonies was banned and they were kind of each isolated with their only contact being with the ESA.

One of my favorite parts of Wing is all the coups and revolutions that take place, the only problem is that is supposed to all happen in the course of a year and like every character is 15 - 23.

>>14606321
The supposed point of Operation Meteor was retaliation for the Alliance's oppression of the colonies as well as to avenge the assassination of the political leader Heero Yuy (who the pilot was codenamed after).

>>14605279
Weren't mobile suits basically designed by the Romefeller Foundation to fuel their neo-Chivalric ideals of war?

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>>14606686
yes as explained in episode 14

>>14606550
and then they retconned it into a botched power grab by a secret wealthy colonial society that existed and somehow had communications between colonies during the time when shuttles and communications between colonies were banned and policed

>>14606686
yes, which in my mind has been the only rational reason for MS to exist in any Gundam series.

>>14606754
>>14606733
>>14606686
>bunch of old white fags bankrolling giant robots because they wanted war to have human-like aspects and didn't like nuclear arms, ICBMs, and mutually assured destruction

and then those same old white fags introduce mobile dolls, the only people who truly cared about mobile suits were the young people

>>14606776
I kept reading that as white fang

>>14606776
What, you don't want to have as many giant robots as possible?

>>14605332

There is also a lack of true space fleets. Aside from shuttles, there is nothing like the Musai or Magellan, so space combat was revolved around taking asteroid bases and making sure Bulge isn't taken out.

>>14606838
They had massive as fuck military forts and space stations though on the Earth and space, not even getting into crazy shit like Barge.

>>14606733
This explanation only really works once there is an actual war with MS on both sides, which doesn't happen until the White Fang start to mobilize a force of suits during the show's run, and by that point so many of them are mobile dolls that the point is largely irrelevant. The only other faction with their own MP suits are the Maganac Corps and it's my understanding that they're only forty men strong and that they don't even actively join with Quatre against OZ until they hijack his jet in AC 194. The image of MS bullying ground troops in small skirmishes doesn't really inspire thoughts of chivalrousness.

>>14606901
You're making a mistake. Trieze lead the Specials, a military elite faction that's attached to as well as basically sponsored and endorsed by Romafeller who have extremely close ties and influence with the Earth Sphere Alliance military and government. OZ did not create mobile suits, OZ pioneered their development, from my understanding the Earth Sphere Alliance created mobile suits as a new evolution of military combat doctrine which gave them an overwhelming advantage against traditional and conventional technology; tanks, helicopters, jets, etc...

Once they secured the Earth, they sent them to the colonies as police force and garrison corps to keep the colonies in line.

>>14606901
The Earth became united under the ESA, which promised peace after a long war. And also occupied the colonies. Having giant mobile suits in the form of humans rather than a bunch of tanks.

>>14606921
OZ and within it the Specialists were a part of the ESA.

>>14606934
>>14606921
Romafeller is the political core and heart of OZ which is a sepearate entity that is aligned with the Earth Sphere Alliance; OZ which is the military branch of Romafeller and Specials are an elite unit within OZ that are basically the equivalent to the Titans or ECOAS and Londo Bell in UC to the regular Federation Forces.

Either way, what ESA was doing predates anything with Trieze by decades so it has nothing to do with chivalry.

>>14606947
>Trieze invented chivalry
Trieze was a product of that world.

The Romafellers were the nobility of Europe who never disappeared in that universe and retained enormous power. Nobility have historically held on to ideas of chivalry.

OZ was officially a part of the ESA until the coup.

>>14606934
>>14606947
Yeah, the chivalry angle is really only viable from the standpoint of Treize's forces, from what I can gather. Doesn't fly as an explanation of MS in general, which is why I wasn't getting why it was being brought up.

Near as I'm reading from the timeline, the Alliance is formed in AC 133 to firmly settle the decades of fighting over territory and resources on the planet. The Leo isn't rolled out until 175, well after they're in power. Seems like I have to go back to my original thought, that the creation of MS in the AC timeline was completely the Alliance showing off and making a flashy way to oppress people. Basically the GM Quel.

>>14605279
It makes the most amount of sense when you take the Turn A approach and assume AC happened after UC so mobile suits already existed.

>>14607019
Trieze was little kid if not even born when the ESA was producing mobile suits to control the Earth and colonies. My point was it's silly to apply his personal view of honor or chilvarly to a faction that predates him being part of the Specials and OZ much less the fact that its his own personal philosophy.

>>14607061
But they invented MS independently 170 years after they started colonizing space

>>14607065
And my point is that a world dominated by nobility would have maintained or re-introduced the idea of chivalry.
Looking at the uniforms of OZ the group the produces the MS for the ESA (and OZ) its pretty clear they were already into that stuff before Trieze was even born.

>>14607085
Why are you arguing seemingly contrary then if you agree with me? My entire point was that Trieze only had influence on the Specials within OZ, he had no influence on the ESA regular military at all.

>>14607105
Because I'm explaining that Treize existence had no effect on OZ developing MS based on the notions of chivalry building essentially giant knights.

>Yeah, the chivalry angle is really only viable from the standpoint of Treize's forces, from what I can gather. Doesn't fly as an explanation of MS in general, which is why I wasn't getting why it was being brought up.
I'm arguing with whoever said that.

>>14607115
The problem with the idea that they created MS to promote chivalry is that there were no major wars being fought when they developed them, just small skirmishes and policing. The major wars were fought before the Alliance was formed. This means that they were already better equipped and prepared than their enemies. If they were being chivalrous in developing a new weapon to fight against small terrorist groups and insurgents, they would have had to build the weapon and then give it away to their enemy so that they could fight on even terms. Creating a superweapon to fight an enemy that you already substantially outclass seems like the exact opposite of knightly behavior.

>>14607156
You realize 99% of what we consider "honor" or chivalry with knights are hugely blown out of proportion by romanticists right? Also I don't think the ESA gives two shits about honor when it came to optimizing Mobile Suits for war and military operations in the first place.

>>14607156
>Why was Romefeller so set on using mobile suits?
>Because people tend to fear large machinery. But at the same time have a strong admiration for it. Mobile suits walk upright, too. The foundation must've preferred a human looking battle rather than one played out with buttons and switches.
The wars ended when more and more nations joined the ESA, they were not conquered by it. It was sort of like a UN. However with OZ it slowly became more and more militaristic.

In places on Earth and especially in the colonies they figured the combination of fear and admiration of MS would be better than just having tanks. Moreover as said numerous times the nobility who are the RF who run OZ prefer ideas of chivalry.

You also have different sense of chivalry than the historical one.
While a personal duel it is best for both opponents to have a standard set of weapons (also keep in mind that a peasant or someone of a much lower station cannot challenge a noble to a duel, or demand satisfaction). At no time in the medieval or pre-Napoleonic period did knights or armies develop weapons then give the enemy nations the technology.

I'd bet if I took a random 16th century French knight he's say he was quite chivalrous, he'd explain that peasants are also meant to be ruled by the nobility that separatists should be crushed. And I highly doubt he'd agree that any new weapon the French developed should be shared with France's enemies to level the playing field.

>>14607185
While it's true that the modern interpretation of chivalry is screwed up, that doesn't negate my point. The original code of chivalry basically constitutes rules for combat, and one of the aspects of the code is to deliberately abstain from situations that are unfair or cruel for your enemy. Also "not giving a shit about honor" is a direct counterargument to the chivalry standpoint because there's an epic poem from the 11th century that recounts the rules of chivalry and one is specifically "To live by honor and for glory."

>>14607224
Except:
1. Knights never did that when fighting in armies.
2. One and one duels only take place between two people of similar social status.

If peasants or regions rebelled in 15th century Europe, knights didn't make sure there was a level playing shield or donate arms and armor. They crushed it.
Now if one knight challenged another knight to a duel, outside of war, there would be certain rules to make sure each side was equal.

Not sure how the above doesn't apply to what the ESA was doing.

>>14607025
Except it's Duke Dermail and Dorothy who explain this whole chivalry thing.

>>14607269
Well, remember, it's not chivalry. It's "chivalry". Adopting the appearance of brave and noble warriors for the sake of PR, just like historical knights probably did. Treize was just the first high-ranking member to really buy into it instead of seeing it as a way to put on a good face.

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>>14606107
So a painted up Liberty Prime?

>"COMMUNISM IS THE VERY DEFINITION OF FAILURE."

>>14607574
The way they brought back Liberty Prime for 4 actually made me LESS hyped, it was like the perfect example of why the game and its writing was so much worse than the one that had came before it.

>>14607577
Story and dialogue were weaker, but I really did like the gameplay itself. Weapon and armor customization, settlement building, Power armor, environment, and graphics were are greatly improved in my opinion. To me it just brings the game down to an 8/10 instead of a 10/10.