How would you improve Shinn as a character?

>>14590688
What's it matter?

Kira's just going to swoop in and hijack the show anyway...

>>14590688
Really, Shinn wasn't any more angsty than the average Gundam protag. His flaws just stand out more when he's compared to the pure and beautiful Kira Yamato.

The only time he really fucked up was giving Stellar back to Mwu then arguing when Kira had to put her down. She murdered thousands of people, dude. You have to let go at some point.

>>14590688
Place him in his own series so that he can get some character arcs and growth. Otherwise, what's there to improve? He's pretty well developed for a side character.

>>14590688
With better writing?
He's not even the same character in the Z series.

Have it so he doesn't start out as an elite soldier, so his emotional issues are more believable. Otherwise there's nothing wrong with him, Shinn's problems are as a result of his own show being stolen out from under him.

>>14590688
He isn't the problem with Destiny. All of the new cast are fine, it's the returning cast that are the problem, and it's when they take all of the spotlight and Kira survives the Freedom/Impulse fight that the series goes completely to shit.

SRW Z

>>14590688
Replace him with the SRW Z Shinn

>>14590932

Even before this the new cast and Shinn in particular were very much against the "right" method of the prequel show, in that while Seed said to to be forgiving and merciful lest you end up with so many dead friends and family on either side nobody is willing for peace, which means at best one side is going to get brutally wiped out.

Where as Shinn was all "Fuck the enemy I hate you all ragh!" and slaughtered everyone, even guys he really didn't have to like Todoka (guys ship was dead in the water and sinking, he wasn't exactly a threat there) or those random ships in Requiem's harbor.
And then thinking the best solution is to force the entire world to obey Durandal's crazy new rules with a death ray aimed at them if they didn't.

That's like Kamille or Judau suddenly going "Actually fuck hope for humanity and the Earth" and joining Char to colony drop Earth.

Shinn should have had his own AU show not connected to Seed whatsoever so he's not locked to the previous protagonist's and what's expected of them.

>>14590733
>Really, Shinn wasn't any more angsty than the average Gundam protag. His flaws just stand out more when he's compared to the pure and beautiful Kira Yamato.

Pretty much this.

Personally, I think Shinn was something Bandai would have pushed for. He's practically a UC protagonist, so they can appeal to those sorts, and he'd keep Destiny more accessible rather than doing a second series with the old cast.

My theory goes that Bandai were responding to criticisms that SEED was too kiddie from the older crowd, so they wanted Destiny to be more serious. After all, that is what they were promising going into it. But then you have Fukuda, and well...

> Q: Difference betweeen reality and anime?
> A: After all, anime's war is only a fashion. I read newspapers like Mainichi and Asahi, but anime isn't really serious. They call it "anti-war discussion", but can't comprehend it because it's hard. With my son, I only discuss war on the level that it is bad.

> Q: Difference between First (MSG) and SEED?
> A: First was during the Vietnam War era while SEED was created during the Iraqi War. They say war, war, but it's only a robot anime afterall. Gundam elapsed on its own through the times so I wanted to bring it back to a pure robot anime, Combattler V-type.

To Fukuda, Shinn would have been a slap in the face. "Oh, great job with SEED. Sure is popular, but we're going to try and make it more UC in the future. More serious you understand."

My guess is that Shinn, the UC-stand in, would embrace Kira/Lacus's ways towards the end of the series but since Fukuda never bothered to use him properly (he essentially was a side-character in his own show) he was made the antagonist in stead. Destiny was Fukuda's giant middle finger to the franchise, saying his way is the best.

And all this in a series meant to celebrate 25 years of Gundam.

Shinn turned out as fucked as he did because of Kira and Athrun.

>>14591026
And that only happens because Shin was robbed of a chance for character development. Again after the Impulse/Freedom battle Shin just stops as a character and doesn't grow.

Shinn is fine. I like him. Would be better if he actually slap Kira and his ideals though.

>>14591026
>That's like Kamille or Judau suddenly going "Actually fuck hope for humanity and the Earth" and joining Char to colony drop Earth.

One of them completely washed their hands of politics to be a family doctor on the moon and the other fucked off to Alpha Centauri with a bunch of Newtypes in a sleeper ship. They both took a third option because UC is terrible.

>>14590688
It's okay for him to act like an angsty bitch if he gets redemption in the end, which he doesn't. All because Kira took the spotlight.

>>14591123
He got a handshake and Alex Dino's old girlfriend.

>>14591043
This.

He needed someone more dependable to be his role model and friend, kind of like Kamille and Char. Not someone who suffers from the same exact problems that he grew out of in SEED because fuck development or some asshole who thinks he's that much above everyone else and fights all sides.

>>14591123

I blame the marketing. Specfically all the Gundam's they were pumping out because kids only buy Gundam models (or they did at the time)

Because all the main guys had to have a shiny new Gundam, they didn't have the time or resources to make any new villains, so they had to fight each other.

And they sure as hell weren't gonna make Kira the bad guy.

>>14591037
Seed was too kiddy? With the inflation fetish of fleshy people constantly expanding and popping into showers of blood, implied sex, overt racist nature of the conflict between Naturals vs Coordinators and what not?

>>14591207
Yup. Gundams posing like they're super robots, basic story of good vs. evil, ignoring the setting details, asspulls, Kira is generic as fuck. Take away the shock value moments and you have what they saw SEED as, a Gundam for little kids.

>>14591254
Seed's most popular demographic was teenagers, in fact iirc, despite it alienating a lot of the older established fandom from the 80s and 90s, it brought in new blood into the franchise.

>Take away the shock value moments

I'm not a SEED apologist but you can use this argument for anything.

>>14591260
>Seed's most popular demographic was teenagers, in fact iirc, despite it alienating a lot of the older established fandom from the 80s and 90s, it brought in new blood into the franchise.

Teenage girls, according to Bandai's former president. He also mention they weren't buying Gunpla. He also said 00 was targeting teenagers in general with the implication they were attempting to get teenage boys back into Gundam.

>>14591307
It must be doing both ends right given how well expensive productions like Seed + Seed Destiny and 00 did. Plus the fact that every god damn Gundam game, especially Musous, have to always have a shit ton of infusion of characters, settings, locations, and suits from CE is pretty indicative that CE universe still rolls out the bank rolls for anything not UC besides AD and AC.

I'd like to have seen a Perfect Impulse Gundam based on the Force, Sword, and Blast packs instead of Destiny.

>>14591318

1) Most of those games either rewrite Destiny or call out the SEED cast. It's basically game writers showing off how they can handle it better than the show ever did.

2) Destiny's Gunpla line sold very poorly, hence why they moved to 00. The Remastered line also didn't do that well either. Banrise wouldn't have moved on if it was making the kinds of money you say it does. After all, what happened to all those plans to make CE the new UC? Bandai repeatedly called Stargazer the first SEED OVA, but it ended up being the only one.

>>14591260
>>14591307
According to some of the demographic data Bandai has published, it was young teens and pre-teens that Seed had massive success with while 00 had strong appeal with older teens.

>>14591416
>1
>2
What does this have to do with the fact that regardless of plamo, games do exceedingly well in sales when CE is included?

>>14591429

Because Plamo is the bottom line. Everything else is just a bonus.

Seed and Destiny had record breaking DVD sales and sold all kinds of side merch. Bandai's response was "Not good enough. Our number 1 prority is kids hooked on our plastic crack."

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>>14591416
>Destiny's Gunpla line sold very poorly, hence why they moved to 00.
Really? I thought they failed to make a sequel or additional story because of Morosawa - they weren't able to strike while the iron was hot. Going by this image (which seems to only talk about HG and doesn't provide concrete numbers, just approximate bar chart data) 00 wasn't that much better.

>>14591429
How well exactly? Gundam games are kinda popular in Japan, definitely not niche but they're not triple A titles either.

>>14591458
Ghiren's Blood series is basically seen as a classic in Japan as far as an anime video game series can be.

>>14591458
That chart is about how fast they release Gunpla, not about how well the lines did.

>>14591500
Actually, in large red font on the left side, it says:

売上目標
SEED 対比 145%
00 対比 140%
を狙います!

売上目標 means "sales target". 対比 means "comparison". を狙います! means "we aim for". Those bars do represent sales, and this picture comes from back when they had major aspirations for AGE HG models having about 1.5x the sales of the previous two series.

>>14591026
>And then thinking the best solution is to force the entire world to obey Durandal's crazy new rules with a death ray aimed at them if they didn't.

That's because at that point, he had literally been abandoned as a character. Affter the battle on the moon, he doesn't do anything, literally ANYTHING in the series other than show up and get beaten by Athrun.

If we're trying to go with the Gilbert-is-using-him angle, then maybe we should have had a few more scenes where he's trying to hype Shinn up with rank and trinkets and what not.

>>14591142

>SLAP!
>You didn't follow orders!
>SLAP!
>WHY DO YOU FOLLOW ORDERS!

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another big issue I take with the series is WHY THE FUCK DID THEY JUST ABSOLVE NEO OF ALL HIS WARM CRIMES JUST BECAUSE HE REJOINED TEAM KIRA!

Like okay I can get they may be able to write it off as him being a victim of mental conditioning and basically mind control.

But he wasn't the least bit remorseful. They basically said, well he's Mwu again so that means it basically didn't happen, here's a Cagalli's gundam and Murrue's vagina just hope in both.

There was no him dealing with guilt, there was no him trying to face the consequences of his actions, no nothing. Just you're on team Kira you can do or did no wrong.

god fuck this show

>>14591666
Maybe because being mind-washed, a hero/mentor figure to Kira and Cagali and on top of that the whim of the pink tyrant would not be ignored even for the state of the world?

I wouldn't change anything about Shinn, he's already good and didn't need improving

>>14591674

He was still used to commit war atrocities and butcher thousands. That's not something people are just gonna walk off even if they where hypnotized. It's not believable.

>>14591666
>>14591682
The thing that often gets overlooked is, that when he rejoins Team Kira and they all completely forgive him, HE'S STILL NEO.

He's literally didn't shake off the false personality or regain any of his memories until what, the second last episode when the Akatsuki taking a hit for the Archangel brings him back?

>>14591706
He was vaguely remembering things. He says so himself.

He contacted the bridge for a videocall from the medical bay once and Murrue mentions that somehow he remembers the code to call the bridge, which Neo didn't realize he did.

Murrue gave him a Skygrasper to leave the ship just before ZAFT invaded Orb, he returns and tells Murrue that he's not exactly sure anymore about himself.

I'm not saying it's good writing, but he did seem to be vaguely recalling things, even if they weren't apparent to himself.

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>>14590688
Replace him with Shin.

>>14591717

Another thing to consider: Mu is a pretty amoral guy in the first place, Neo was not a major change of his personality.

He was the lone survivor of the first time the EA used one of those weapons of mass destruction that microwaved people and he never gave a single shit, even though it killed every living Mobius Zero pilot there was other than him. His loyalty in Seed is dictated basically by following Murrue.

>>14591706
>>14591717
>>14591739

he should have been a clone

>>14591739
Well, that might just be a case of Morosawa ignoring the sorta-actually-deep-ish worldbuilding back history that was done for CE (clearly written by someone else other that Morosawa). There's stuff like political and terrorism events in addition to the usual racism that led to how CE became fucked up in the first place.

No one ever brings up the lunar battle where EA deployed the microwave superweapon for the first time where all of Mwu's comrades died in, despite the exact same thing happening in JOSH-A, which is kind of silly. It's like no one noticing a colony drop or nuclear bomb and thinking it just happened for the first time.

>>14590688
Make him less of an edgelord. Shinn and Lunamaria should be interested in each other from the beginning instead of falling in love with Stella. I felt that Stella was useless with the rest of the extended. Maybe instead he could've been a bit like Char. He should've stayed with Orb and try to destroy them from within. Also not killing Todoka, that guy did not deserve it at all.

>>14591759
>Shinn and Lunamaria should be interested in each other from the beginning instead of falling in love with Stella.

I blame this on the whole screen time getting gutted thing. There are little bits here and there where you can see being jealous of the attention Luna gives Athrun.

>>14591808
She's also constantly looking out for him from the beginning of the series, and regularly calls out Athrun out mishandling Shinn.

I think that was handled pretty ok all things considered.

He was fine as is.

>>14591037
>First was during the Vietnam War era while SEED was created during the Iraqi War
What, SEED began a year before Iraq and Mobile Suit Gundam began 4 years after the fall of Saigon.

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>>14591811

Eh, it could have been a lot better. The foundation was there but we really needed that extra time to develop them as having a relationship, As it was the way they hook up was really weird and sudden.

I will say there voice actors did a great job of making them sound like they cared about each other (though I guess being an actual couple really helps in that regard.)

Honestly it just makes the whole mess sting all the more because with a bit more care and screen time they could have probably been one of the best couples in all of gundam.

>>14590997
>>14591015
Explain

>>14591831

Video games have a pretty good habit of fixing a lot of the CE's shit.

I remember one of the DW games basically had Shinn and his team calling Kira out on his bullshit about not fighting. Something along the lines of "It's wrong to fight for change but okay to fight for the status quo? Fuck you."

>>14591837
It was the second one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gchVNq4iSR0

If the stray shot that killed his sister had come from Kira his angst about Orb/Lacus-alliance would have made a bit more sense.

>>14591037
>it's only a robot anime afterall

If 0079 was 'only' a robot anime, it wouldn't be the icon that it is.

>>14591207
It was too childish in its portrayl of war. It's not as simple as just saying "war is bad, shoot both sides to end the war"

Have an whole arc of Durandal sending Shin to Master Asia's "How to finger like a pro" boot camp.

How did they fix Shinn/Kira in the SRWs?

>>14591845
The shot came from above, right? Calamity would have been hovering along the ground and shooting up at the Freedom, because it can't really fly.

>>14591870
Didn't Calamity hitch a ride on Raider's MA form?

>>14591862

Shinn's treated as a pretty unambiguously good guy and is close friends with people like Kamille and Setsuko Ohara who give him companions he has things in common with. In the game that did the biggest adaption of Destiny, it meant that where there was a heroes-vs-heroes split that followed the Destiny storyline, Shinn had a lot more people with his back and calling out Kira and the people who sided with him.

Stella and Rey are generally both savable and recruitable as allies as well so his reasons for having a hate on for people is reduced.

>>14591870
The shot is very, very obviously meant to come from Kira when it's shown at the beginning of the series.

It's only later that they walked it back and showed a different angle of the scene (which didn't really make sense when paired with the first) showing it was Calamity.

>>14591892
Oh yeah, that would help a lot. Shinn's kind of screwed because he's under a lot of pressure to perform and constantly under enemy lines while he has a shitload of dependents but no peers.

I only played the first SRW Z but I remember Setsuko got shat on heavily by the plot, so at least they can commiserate.

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>>14591881
Yes, but afterward we see the Calamity landing on the ground in the forest near Shinn's family.

I don't know about the original TV broadcast or the DVD versions, but the remaster shows Freedom and Calamity firing shots at each other when Shinn's family is melted in the ensuing explosion. It's worth noting that Calamity is on the ground and the Freedom is in the air when it happens. The way I see it, it happened one of two ways:

1. Freedom's shots hit the ground

2. the shots collided in mid-air and caused the large explosion

>>14591893
What episode was the backpedaling?

>>14591910
It should totally have been Freedom, btw. Just mentioning that Calamity usually rode on Raider so it might have been plausible for it to have come from there... but the scene you linked strongly suggests Kira did it.

>>14591910
They show that in the original version as well.

I like to think they collided, which caused the explosion.

>>14591914
>What episode was the backpedaling?

Episode 20. It was an Athrun point of view recap episode, when it shows Shinn's family being killed Freedom is completely removed from the scene, it only showing Calamity destroying Orb forces and has Calamity's shots leading directly to the explosion that kills them.

For what it's worth, I think them being killed by the crossfire is the canon version. Dvds, compilation movies, the HD remaster all use the crossfire version. They never altered anything to match that one recap episode that was different.

>>14591862
Basically by surrounding him with supportive characters, and willing to run with his characer, with the good and the bad.
So basically, everything the original series refused to do for him

For example, after the Argama crew is warped into his crew's world, they both go to stop Break the World. The characters have their discussion about what happens, and then Yolan makes his joke about how it'll help ZAFT if the thing fell anyway. Cagaili shows up, yells at them, and then Shinn goes off at her. Kamille shows up and says that it's no joke because it's happened in the world he came from.

Later during the operation, Killer the Butcher shows up, and he's going to, surprise, surprise, kill everyone around. Kamille tells the ZAFT crew to keep off the mobile suits and they'll take on the other machines, and Shinn, who is still sceptial about the idea that they come from another realm or that they even care if the thing falls (much like the Titans, who openly state they don't care).tells him to piss off and that he's not taking orders from him.
Kamille gets mad and tells him that colony drops are no joke, and that they have more experience with fighting aliens and a lot of people will die if they don't get it together. Shinn apologies, they exchange names, and the stage goes wrong.

Basially, whenever Shinn normally did something wrong/stupid/out of anger, they still let him do it, but here there are characters to call him out on it, and reel him back in, and it constantly develops his character so the next action doesn't seem out of place.

>>14592038
Here's another example
Shinn and Rey still get arrested for letting Stella go, and get let off the hook. Shinn does his awkward, assholish apology to Athrun in front of everyone, and Kamille immediately susses him out for it saying that just because Gilbert is saying it's okay doesn't mean it exactly is and that he should give everyone a real apology
Shinn calls him out about Four and that he'd do the same exact thing, and says "I don't have to take this shit from YOU of all people!"

BUT right before the stage starts, they basically kiss and make up.

Here on the SRWZ1, the series sets up the idea that Shinn is in need of some major guidance, and if he doesn't get it from your lot, he'll get it from Gilbert instead

>>14592048
>he'll get it from Gilbert instead

And that's bad.

>>14592048
>>14592060
One of the endings of Generations of CE sets up the idea that instead of Kira and the Archangel crew taking down Durandal, Shinn and the Minerva crew (sans Ray) realise he's full of shit and do it themselves. Unfortunately, NONE of the endings in that game coincide with the ending we actually got.

>>14591967
The crossfire version makes more sense if they were going for a "war sucks, people die for no reason" vibe that most Gundam series go for. On the other hand, the show is called SEED DESTINY, so it would also make sense for the Shinn vs Freedom (not necessarily Kira, he doesn't know Kira until the very end of the series) rivalry to start from there, culminating in Episode 34. Of course, that would require non-shit writing that recognises that, no matter how good his intentions, even Kira can fuck things up and make a situation worse for others, like he did for half the show.

>>14590688

Nothing. He's actually a decent and relatively simple character to understand. Loses everything, is willing to sacrifice everything so that he won't have to lose again. Culminates in him nearly killing the last thing he has (luna) and realizing that he can't do anything. Cue special ending, kira gives him hopeful message of how people can rebuild after they lose, everyone is happy the end.

I don't know why /m/ blows this so far out of proportion but shinn is really easy to understand.

>>14592076
I always like how, whenever they fix up the story in a game, Rey ALWAYS sides with Gil, regardless of what happens.

Shinn's whole backstory makes no sense anyway, since the original SEED had the civilians evacuated days before the slow-moving OMNI fleet knocked on Orb's door.

>>14592079
This. The question shouldn't be 'how do we fix Shinn?', it should be 'how do we fix the REST OF THE SHOW so that Shinn is more than a placeholder for the second coming of our Lord and Savior?'. Thank FLAWLESS VICTORY leaving a bitter taste in our mouths.

>>14592083
Rau and Gil were father figures for Rey, so it makes sense. It speaks volumes about Rau's ability to screw over his AU that, while prodding people into escalating the first war to the point that it almost wipes out all of humanity, he leads his close friend down a mental path that ends said friend later starting a second war that almost wipes out all of humanity. It's the fictional equivalent of Gavrilo Princip being a friend of Hitler, and helping the latter develop the ideas written in Mein Kampf.

>>14592079
Yeah he was a great hero gone villain type of character. The best fix would be probably having Kira kill him in the final battle. Or even better, double KO, but Nips love Kira too much for that.

>>14592105

I don't even think the rest of the show was an issue. I think /m/ is obsessed with wanting to make destiny this ultimate commentary on war that accurately portrays all sides as neither good nor bad. If destiny were a vn, the writers took the kira route. It seems one sided because it is. The flexibility of perspective in games and manga shows that destiny has the potential to expand on all sides of conflict but chose to focus on kira for the show.

>>14592079
Because in the original show, he's still poorly written, and his character arc literally drops off at a certain point in the series.

>>14592124

That's fine if you don't like the shift in focus, but shinn's characterization was always consistent.

>>14592110
>Yeah he was a great hero gone villain type of character.

Shinn literally never went villain. He's the one with the moral high ground when he and Athrun part ways.

I mean the show constantly makes a point of this. He's still given heroic fanfare every time he takes action as long as it's against someone that isn't Kira and friends, and the Three Ships Alliance are unambiguously the force of an rogue state that goes against the will of literally the entire world and the space colonies, and stages a military coup against PLANT.

>>14592139
He sides with the bad guys and tries to kill guys. Makes him villain desu

>>14592105
>This. The question shouldn't be 'how do we fix Shinn?', it should be 'how do we fix the REST OF THE SHOW so that Shinn is more than a placeholder for the second coming of our Lord and Savior?'

Destiny is, quite literally, as if you got 13 episodes into Zeta Gundam than had Amuro and White Base II roll up and start shooting holes in the Argama and kicking Kamille's ass.

Shinn's a fine character. Hell I genuinely like him. But after the first arc he basically gets locked out of his own show. It's not even that his development stops, it actually gets rolled backwards.

He's not the only victim too, Athrun got it just as bad. He goes from co-protagonist that is the main character's experienced mentor figure to a dude so weak willed he needs his own experienced mentor figure, and never recovers from that. He just ends up Me-Too for Kira and nothing more.

>>14592143

ZAFT weren't the villains and there is literally nothing wrong with a soldier killing his enemies.

>>14592158
Yes, Durendal's entire plot was not villainous at all.

>>14592160

It wasn't, until the part where he decided to vaporize Orb

Which was arguably justified as Orb were the villains for a large portion of the show, and a dangerous rogue state at the end when he made that decision

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>>14592128
Actually, no it really isn't.
Shinn has a chip on his shoulder, doesn't have mercy for his foes, and is always thinking about how he almost ended up a bloody corpse
BUT he still always followed doing the what he thought was right, regardless of what anyone else thought/told him, and would find a heart if he knew there was trouble
Why would Shinn opnely stab Athrun's mobile suit in the cockpit? It's not like he couldn't just force Athrun to go back with his powerful mobile suit. Would the guy that took pity on Stella really kill Meryin like that? Well, of course, because at this point, Shinn doesn't have a character anyone. He's just smash stuff for Rey and Gil, because since they both helped him the one time, all he does is default to whatever they think and shout.

Shinn went from having a slice of a character to none at all. I ask you, WHY does Shinn believe in the Destiny Plan at all other than because ZAFT is doing it, and Rey/Gilbert are saying it's great? What's he getting out of it? What does it have to do with his character at all other than the idea that it'll stop war?
You know why all he talks about in the final battle is that GRR YOU TRAITOR ATHRUN? Because he doesn't have anything else to say, because he doesn't have a character at that point. It would be at this point that the characters would be throwing thei ideals ata each other along with their mobile suits, and people

It doesn't have to be DEEP, but it at least shows the motivation of the characters come to a head. Even Gundam X, a show that got cancelled got that part right, and ultimately the Frost Bros just wanted everyone dead for not recognizing the ability of Category F's, while Garrod represents the idea that Newtypes and Cagegory F's don't exist outside of people trying to invent some new special class of human.

>>14592185
>WHY does Shinn believe in the Destiny Plan at all

Uh, he doesn't. It takes his best friend strongly arguing for it for him to begrudgingly support it.

>What does it have to do with his character at all other than the idea that it'll stop war?

If you hadn't noticed that's a pretty important issue for him.

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>>14592185
You can't even claim that this was showing him go off the deep end, because Shinn's portrayal after the switcharoo depends on if he's against Orb or not. If he's doing something against Orb, he's a super villain, if he's blowing up EA machines, he's the hero.
Even if you want to say that Rey is manipulating him, or Gilbert is just using him, what do they ultimately tell him to do? Blow up the thing! Fight the guys! He's doing his job, and because the show can't even be assed to give him any screentime, that's really the only times we see him.
Even in the latter episodes when they're setting up ZAFT as the final hurdle, we don't get anything new out of his character or a show of how he's being used anymore than anyone else in ZAFT who's on board with this plan (outside of the old characters like Yzak and Dearka of course!) Most of the time, it's literally the characters standing around talking about things that are happening. Why develop these characters when you can show Shinn and Lunamaria at the gun range again!

Even a character like Jerid, you can understand his angst, his motivations, and what he's doing in the series, and if he's in over his head. When Jerid reappears late in the series, it's because Kamille just finished killing another one of his loved ones and sent him to the hospital, and we know that he's feeling extremely sore about it, physically and emotionally
Jerid isn't a extremely developed character, but even Zeta Gundam shows you how he got from point A to point B. SEED mangles that with many characters, and Shinn being one of them.

Of course Shinn is easly to understand, he's got the scraps of what makes up a angry-character, but the execution is poor and his character ultimately goes nowhere. The issue is hardly about if he won or not, just that he really goes nowhere, and people try to make excuses for what's what's just the sloppy handing of a main character.

>>14592195
>If you hadn't noticed that's a pretty important issue for him.
The sad thing is that, really, Kira and Shinn want the same thing, it's just a lot of other shit got in the way, and made them enemies.

Kira would be the undisputed hero of CE if at some point he simply told Shinn that his boss is full of shit.

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>>14592195
So basically, at this final battle, the supposed "main character" has nothing to do with the overall conflict of the battle thematically and doesn't have any real personal stake in it other than after-the-battle-war would stop

So basically, this fight could be about anything, and Shinn would treat it exactly the same.
As much as Shinn hates Orb, he should at least be objecting, or be conflicted with the idea of blowing up the island completely, because it would just make more people exactly like his own. If not the case, they should at least make it that he's gone over that and slipped into a darker path.

None of this is brought up at all. Almost none of Athrun's lines to Shinn have anything poignant to his character or to the decisions he's made other than "you're a big dummy" and flowerly garbage like "YOU WANT THE POWER TO KILL THE FUTURE?" It wouldn't be too hard to call back to the idea behind Shinn's character by bringing up the idea that no matter how much he believes in the Destiny Plan or not, it can't be worth blowing up an island of people full of innoncent people like him self. Remember, Shinn ended up in this life because of lasers exploding his family. That idea has something to do with his character!
It's never brought up at this point.

You see what I'm talking about? Shinn's got nothing to do with the battle other than ZAFT'S A-DOING-IT, IMMA DO IT TOO and to make Athrun look cool. Hell, after Gilbert dies, all of ZAFT wakes up like they were all hypnotized suddenly, and Lacus takes office with no qualms, or complaints about it.
Even Gato's got more going on, because the series has made it excessively clear that he's a zealot and willing to die for his cause, be it right or wrong.

There's nothing wrong showing emotional anger during the operation or offduty he still remain follow his duty.

The only he break the rules is return Stella to the enemy for her sake from dissection experiment.

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>>14592252
Let's put this in another perspective
If you took Shinn out of the battle and replaced him with some other pilot that could not get cut down instantly by Athrun, what would change? Little to nothing. Because they're not saying anything important to each other's character, and you can only pretend that Athrun really seemed to give a fuck or two about this new cast of characters when he hardly spent time with them, and felt more annoyed with them any anything.


You couldn't do this for G Gundam. Domon's fight with Master Asia/Rain are pretty important to the story and his character
Can we do this for other final battles? Maybe 0080 and AGE
0080 because the point is that Bernie dies in a pointless battle, and war sucks, and AGE because that guy literally didn't have a character!

Even SEED managed to get something going on with Kira and Rau by trying to haphazardly set it up before their final confrontation. Shinn and Athrun have been hanging out with each other since the beginning of the series, and at the end of it, really have nothing going on with each other other than "you dummy" and "you're a traitor and YOU'RE the dummy"

>>14591458
>Really? I thought they failed to make a sequel or additional story because of Morosawa - they weren't able to strike while the iron was hot. Going by this image (which seems to only talk about HG and doesn't provide concrete numbers, just approximate bar chart data) 00 wasn't that much better.

Assuming that SEED's section is all the SEED HGs, including OVA/MSV/Destiny/Astray, it says a lot. When AGE came out, 00 and SEED had about the exact same number of HGs released in their lines BUT 00 didn't have a 50 episode sequel to help push out more Gunpla. Plus, it wasn't like SEED sales just stopped either. The last of the Destiny line came out just before 00 started airing. That about 5 years of SEED releases vs about 3 of 00

To say 00 wasn't much better is an oversimplification of the facts.

As for Morosawa, that's the excuse they gave as to why the movie didn't happen. They were still talking about the upcoming SEED movie during 00's production, with Fukuda and Morosawa in charge.

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At least he got a god tier girl.

It's their fifth anniversary tomorrow, if you didn't know.

>>14592759
Luna was my reason for watching Destiny.

>>14592163
You could make a decent argument that Kira is the fallen hero of Destiny.

One of the morals a producer wanted for SEED was that war is undesirable, and for the show to show reasons for why we should avoid war. Simplistic, yes, but Destiny still manages to go against it.

Kira starts off not wanting to fight anymore,but is pushed into action by the attempt on Lacus's life. He goes around attacking ZAFT and the EA in order to protect the Orb soliders, as well as a spaceport while helping Lacus steal a ship. Kira Yamato, at this point, is a reluctant terrorist. He's still questioning whether he's doing the right thing or not, but the fact is he's trying to get what he and his friends want through sheer force. As DWG2 puts it, as much as Kira says fighting is useless and wants people to stop he fights to protect what's important to him. He's ignores the reasons why, just like how SEED ignored shit like ZAFT fighting for independence or the energy crisis.

But the problem is, Kira's arc in Destiny (yes, he does have one) is him replacing that reluctance with resolve. He ultimately joins ZAFT as a high ranking officer to help Lacus, and is determined to fight anyone who will break the peace in the future. The "I don't want to fight" Kira is gone at this point, and the tragedy of Destiny is that it's events only reinforced his earlier behavior. He's not going to try any sort of diplomacy other than the gunboat variety, which would likely lead to another war against ZAFT in the future. As much as he talks about replanting flowers, he only does this to people he's essentially conquered. He's becoming Celestial Being at the start of season 1.

>>14593322

Another thing is how Destiny tries to say you should't just blindly follow your leaders. Disregarding how the show tries to paint Kira in the best possible light, Kira never questions orders. He doesn't believe in Cagalli trying to talk it out with the Orb soldiers, but he still allows it anyway. He just accepts the fact Lacus can hand him a new MS that is super powerful and has him fighting alongside the DOM Troopers. You know, those guys who unironically say you'd have to be messed up to disagree with Lacus. He just goes along with what they want, never questioning anything.

Either the show is hypocritical, or the show actually wants you to question whether he's really doing the right thing at the end. But in the end, the fact remains that Destiny did taint his image in the eyes of many. Some people stopped looking at him as a hero and instead as a self-righteous hypocrite.

>>14592076
>The crossfire version makes more sense if they were going for a "war sucks, people die for no reason" vibe that most Gundam series go for

I think that IS what they were going for. Every time we see the scene it's something different. In the preview special before Destiny even aired, it was just a random missile strike. Then Freedom and Calamity, then just Calamity.

Since Shinn was never looking up anyway, and is blown away from the fight afterwards, he'd never be able to see who's fault it was anyway, so it really doesn't matter. The point is probably they died due to Orb having to fight, not because any one pilot was to blame.

Instead of that, they make Stella when Shinn's rivalry with Kira turns personal, as he goes from being confused at Freedom, to annoyed at Freedom, to finally wanting it dead after Stella, as part of the build up to 34 that the entire middle of the show works towards.

>>14592139
>Shinn literally never went villain. He's the one with the moral high ground when he and Athrun part ways.

He deliberately goes out of his way to cockpit stab and destroy an already disabled and crashing MS, despite easily being able to capture it, because Rey insists they take no prisoners and refuses Athrun's attempt to surrender himself.

All because Athrun was given trumped up charges (He had permission to meet Kira from Talia and their entire conversation is on record and he was clearly on Zaft's side at the time and told Kira to back off and didn't tell him anything) and chased off the base. And then Rey personally took Shinn to finish him off because Athrun wouldn't lay down and die when he became an inconvience to Gil's plans.

That's not the moral high ground at all. Shinn doesn't attempt to even try the moral high ground, just freaks out instead Rey goads him into a Seed mode rage, then instantly regrets what he's done when he snaps out of it.

I like how everyone else's SEED mode is emotionless while his SEED mode is angry as fuck.

>>14593561

That's because he never really learns how to use it without being full of rage.

Even when he deliberately triggers it he does it by deliberately thinking of all the things that make him rage.

Shinn is what happens when Fukuda tries to do Kamille.

Instead of a directionless ball of rage who learns to grow up because he gains perspective on how shit everything is around him and he finds people to look up to and something to fight for, we get a directionless ball of rage who literally can never win no matter what he does and everyone around him is a faggot yelling mixed messages at him.

>>14593561
>>14593576
It's his biggest strength, but also his biggest weakness.

>>14592759

It's sad when hentai doujins do the characters more justice

>>14593707
This, not to mention the non-hiraiface character

>>14593576
>>14593605
That's a pretty neat and defining character trait.
I'd very much prefer an angry kill-all edgelord over a boring goody two-shoes moralfag mary-sue.
Shame he didn't grow past that after Impulse vs Freedom when his show was stolen from him.
>>14594892
The hiraiface had improved and is pretty varied in MJP.

>>14590688
Retcon Destiny out of existence?

>>14590688
By removing him.

lol

Ok but seriously tho? By not tryharding to make him SUPER ACE PILOT FOR REAL GUISE YOU GOTTA BELIEVE ME for 40 episodes. Just that would fix about 85% of his problems as a main character in a sequel show, and also give enough room to iron out most secondary problems of the show itself.

>>14590688

Have Kira die and Athrun crippled from the waist down at the end of SEED.

>>14599030

Really? That's honestly more an issue with Kira if you ask me.

In terms of shit pulled Shinn's shenanigans are for more buyable than Kira's aim assist

>>14599096
Plus, Shinn has training. It makes sense for him to be pulling some impressive shit right off the bat because he's not some civie pilot that stumbled into the cockpit.

>>14599096

Kira and Shinn literally do the exact same thing after episode 13.

Flying around and shoot or stab guys that are just sitting there waiting to die, usually in stock footage.

The only difference is Shinn's foes sit there and let him kill them instead of sit there and let him shoot their arms or heads off like Kira.

That's about it. Occasionally there are moments when they're willing to actually try to animate something that looks good but those are few and far between.

But in story they act like these redrawn frames of Windam's that don't move and can't hit anything are a threat, so in series he and Kira are supposedly pulling off impressively skilled feats. But that's not reflected in what you're seeing.

>>14598959
Agreed, watch Stargazer and straight through Astrays instead

>>14599805
>Kira and Shinn literally do the exact same thing after episode 13.

Shinn has combat training and Kira never open get'd

what's more he wasn't some special ULTIMATE COORDINATOR bull shit that made fuck all of sense

>>14600036

Shinn had genetic potential for combat and Seed mode. That's why Durandal was so interested in him and pushed him as his champion (As they mention like twice that Durandal did a genetic test on all the recruits and then suddenly was all over Shinn giving him special treatment as early as his academy days)

He's not quite the snowflake good at everything including programming mechanics martial arts and everything else Kira is, but Shinn is a good pilot just because he was born that way too.

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>>14590688
>improve Shinn

Turn him Into Shin Asuka/Ultraman Dyna then.

>>14600085
>but Shinn is a good pilot just because he was born that way too.

He was born that way the same way a guy whose tall might make a good basket ball player

>>14600191

That's not how coordinator genes work. His genes mean he'll be a naturally flawless pilot and get a super mode if triggered properly. Because gene maniplulation.

>>14590688

Beat the shit out of Mitsuo Fukuda and his wife.

>>14601980

too soon

>>14601980
naw dude

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Give him an Onee-san that looks after him.

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>>14592038
>>14592048

>>14601980
God already smote Fukuda's wife, so you got half your wish.

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>tfw I ignore the fuck out of the anime
Shinn is a cool guy, I always use him in games. Fuck Kira and ORB tho.

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>>14590688
Make him fight Festums

>>14602970
I hate the fact that not only they shat on his character development in the main show, they also make fun of him in that OVA.

>>14603005
To be fair, those OVA's also make fun of the homoerotic undertones between Kira and Athrun.

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>>14602970
This scene made me feel weird things

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>>14603030
You can just blame Hirai and say you thought it was a girl

>>14603005

They make fun of everyone in the OVA. Even Kira.

Well everyone except Lacus. She is unmockable.

>>14602325
>Everyone but Kamille and Amuro wear red.

>>14592079
You see this is one of Destiny's biggest problems.
in paper everything sounds like it should work out, but it was all executed SO badly.
The only thing that could've saved the show was fansubbers lying to us or a ghost stories tier dub where they did as much as they can.

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>>14603338
>She is unmockable.

they've taken a jab at her here and there

>>14603360
What about Laura?

>>14603386
Shit, Rentons arm made me think it was his sleeve.

>>14603360
Now I noticed the pic got the wrong Amuro, that's CCA Amuro but he isn't supposed to be until Z3

>>14602980
More accurate to say, have him for the first half of the series stay the same character, and then during the second half of his arc give him a bunch of subordinates who embody all his worst traits that he took out on Athrun

Someone who just does whatever he wants regardless of the consequences and he gets away with it because he's an ACE PILOT (Kazuki)
Someone who is actively antagonist towards him and blames him for something outside his control (Koyo)
Someone so consumed by revenge that they're blinded during battle and are constantly taking risks they shouldn't (Sakura)

Suddenly Shinn is slapped with all his flaws and he's forced to realize just how fucked and unfair he really was.

>>14603443

He doesn't need that he just needs someone to look after him whose not gonna fuck off to he gay crush every time things get confusing

>>14603443
All goo and nice, but this is impossible without removing the first problem. KIRA. The show does everything possible to say "Kira is cool, Shin is not."

>>14603503

That's what happens when you make your sequel protagonist one of those "Totally the opposite of the first protagonist in every way!' while also constantly harping in the sequel that the protagonist's mentality is the only possible correct one.

You get problems like that.

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>>14604025
The idea of having the sequel protagonist that isn't the same as the main character isn't the problem, the big issues with GSD is that it couldn't break away from the idea that it's protagonists are less than perfect, or that they could even play second fiddle to the new main characters, even for a little while

Despite that Athrun and Kira haven't piloted for years, or that technology should have caught up with them even a little, they're protrayed as super heroes (unless Athrun's on the wrong side, of course!) that can change the course of a battle just by showing up, and absolutely nobody can challenge them. Not unless you put a really good plan together. And even after that, they'll run it back and say he wasn't trying when he loses!

Damn! You guys remember when Freedom, Justice, Strike and Buster Gundams couldn't save Orb from the EA? And they had to run away? I guess not! Fuck, I guess this means that the Druggies are the second on the running for best pilots in the series?

If not that, all of the old main characters are too important for their own good, and they all just happen to be friends with each other.

I don't know, the more I think about GSD, the more I think that maybe a disaster was unavoidable even if they didn't have the new main characters, because they seemed to lack the ability to calm shit down with their characters

>>14604043

This isn't unique to Athrun and Kira.

Remember how Seed had Kira slowly build up the stakes, to the point where 4 Bacue's were a significant challenge to him?

Yeah Destiny doesn't do that. After his initial few skirmishes against the Extendeds Shinn suddenly starts soloing 50 Windam's all alone, and is never in any danger.

And it goes on from there. Kira>Shinn but whenever Kira isn't around it's Shinn that's the invincible super hero because that's how they did fights since the middle of Seed and Destiny picks up right where Seed left off.

Most of Destiny's problems can be attributed to it being a sequel to a show that wasn't designed for one, but it sold great so they did it anyway, and then it collapsed until it's own weight.

Kira and Lacus stealing the show was inevitable because of the way Seed built them up, that them not showing up and being a major part of it would have been just as questionable.

Hell Durandal's entire plan hitched on getting a Lacus and Kira of his own. That's how critical they are to the setting.

>>14599030
>By not tryharding to make him SUPER ACE PILOT FOR REAL GUISE YOU GOTTA BELIEVE ME for 40 episodes.
You can't seriously be chastising a character for something that pretty much every mainline Gundam series does.

I think the only series that doesn't do it is G!

>>14604043
All this would have been avoided easily if Kira had been placed directly in the post of Athrun,
and Lacus had been the ambassador of Orb instead of Cagalli.

Because the basic problem is that the director and screenwriter were too involved with these two characters, and they should not have put them in rivalry with the new protagonist. If Shin and Kira were immediately hero and mentor (with justified hatred from Shin, since he would have thought that the Freedom had killed his parents) Fukuda could continue to masturbate on Kira and Lacus, without derail Shin, which could develop as a second protagonist who eventually abandons ZAFT and forgives Orb and Kira. Furthermore this would satisfy even the Seed fans who did not want Shin from the beginning and followed the series only for the return of Kira.

>>14604061
There were like 10 Windams
Also, you forgot BOTH mobile armors.

It's not Shinn's fault that the series became Showcase How Awesome Freedom Gundam is for the middle run of the show, so they could have what, 3 battles over the ocean to fuck with Orb?

>>14604078
>It's not Shinn's fault that the series became Showcase How Awesome Freedom Gundam is for the middle run of the show

They were doing that even before Freedom did anything beyond destroy a few Ashes.

Shinn mostly solos an entire fleet in episode 12 including several Windam's, a mobile armor, and several ships. In episode 16 they launch an entire bases worth of Windam's at Minerva, and Shinn destroyed all but one (which Athrun takes out).

And that's before Orb even gets involved.

>>14604043
>Despite that Athrun and Kira haven't piloted for years, or that technology should have caught up with them even a little, they're protrayed as super heroes (unless Athrun's on the wrong side, of course!) that can change the course of a battle just by showing up

I don't recall Kira doing all that much tide turning to be honest.

In 28 he turned in it favor of Zaft by foiling EA's chance to destroy Minerva, leading Shinn to regroup and destroy the fleet, but that wasn't at all what Kira wanted to happen, and it wasn't a victory for his side.

He saved Berlin, but it certainly wasn't easy for him.

And Orb was doing a respectable job at holding Zaft off before Kira got involved (once Yuna and his stupid commands were ousted). All Kira did was show up to halt Shinn (who was turning the tide in favor of Zaft by tearing up all the Murasame's) and later Rey and spent nearly the whole fight in a stalemate with them while the Orb grunts pushed Zaft back without his assistance (he disabled a few Zaft grunts while Shinn was repairing but this didn't appear to matter much)

>>14604500
To be frank, in Destiny I had the impression that he was able to win the war alone.

>>14604565

Well he didn't. And in fact when he was entirely on his own he wasn't able to make a dent in anything.

Sure he looked flashy and disabled grunts by the truckload but if you look at his actual goals he failed constantly.

Even the finale was a team effort of him Athrun Mwu and the AA to get everything done to stop Requiem and Neo Genesis.