What's the mainstay NUNS VF during the Delta timeline?

>>14322584
Isn't it that tan Nightmare Plus?

>>14322584
VF-25f. They adopt it for deployment to replace the aging VF-171.

Only backwater frontier worlds still use the VF-171.

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>>14322614
>VF-25f

Don't you mean the VF-25A?

>>14322614
>171.
Ok, this is getting confusing. 171 is a new airframe and Nightmare Plus are old machines with addons and upgrades? Since begining of Delta anons are throwing both names and designations as interchangeable.
>>14322584
Should be some variant of VF-24 Evolution. Probably Messiah, as ot has been proven a solid design during Vajra incident. Chronos seems to confirm that theory. Then there are Nighmares, that seems to stuck as cheap option for poorer colonies/fleets - and considering that EX variant was effective force up until end of Frontier, rightly so.
And I'm pretty sure some forgotten little planet still flies VF-11's.
>>14322758
Depending on needs and budget, maybe?

>>14326370
The VF-171 is the Nightmare Plus.
I would think that VF-171s are new airframes though as the VF-17 was never seen in nearly as many numbers.

>>14326424
The 171 is a new design that just so happens to evoke the design of the 17.

Think of it like an F-18C/D Hornet vs an F-18E/F Super Hornet. Similar name, similar form factor, but completely different beasts under the hood.

>>14326424
the Vf-17's were built in the 2030 while the 171 was built around same time as the 19/22 were as cheap easy to use version of a more specialized VF.

The VF-171's that we saw in Frontier were little more than downgraded versions of VF-17's
The upgraded versions they used at the end of Frontier gave them much better newer parts so as not to suck so horribly.

But the ones in Delta we're not sure if they are 30 year old VF's with no upgrades or just 8 year old VF.

>>14322584

Not sure where people are getting their info, but there is no 'uniform' fighter for NUNS.

Earth has the absolute best, the worst fighter performance wise is probably some kind of VF-19 there. M7 supposedly made a next gen fighter based off of the 19's they had instead of the YF-24. Outside of that we don't know what everyone is fielding. The majority used 171s because earth was leery of exporting the 19 and they were much easier to maintain and cheaper. Nothing suggests the VF-25 was adopted in large quantities and every single garrison we've seen has 171s so I don't see any reason to think otherwise

Depends on where you are in the galaxy.
If you're in a backwater area a la Ragna, 171s.
Macross 7 was stated to have developed a VF based on the 19 for their own use iirc, but no information on it.
Frontier should be rolling with 25s if not 171EXs

>>14322584
Clearly the Delta unit would fuck the everloving shit out of the Nuns.

The nuns just have no chance at winning.

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>>14326629
Earth is probably using 30s, 31s and modded 27s.

>>14326639
>Clearly the Delta unit would fuck the everloving shit out of the Nuns.

alto could solo the current delta unit, vf-31 or not

>>14326644
VF-27 was a Macross Galaxy-specific design that requires cyborg pilots and was apparently unsuitable for mass production.

>Despite all these remarkable advantages, the VF-27 unfortunately suffers from a low airframe versatility that has made the variable fighter unsuitable for mass production. Due to the fact that the Macross Galaxy fleet never informed anyone they were building a new type of fighter, the New UN Spacy has designated the Lucifer as the YF-27. The VF-27 requires a cyborg pilot to operate, but the green variants of the Lucifer can also be built as either manned or unmanned.

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>>14327190
theres also the problem that the VF-27 was a purpose-built cyborg's strike fighter with little modularity or customizability factored into its design.

while the VF-25 was a very basic aircraft with armaments and mission packages added on later, the Lucifer integrated most of the elements of a super pack directly into the airframe and the only add-ons we ever saw were to increase its speed and endurance, not expand its mission roles.

>>14322584
Which branch of NUNS specifically? Depends on the fleet or colony or planet you are serving.

In the early 2040's the VF-11 was the mainstay on Earth and in Macross 7 fleet. Varauta colony went with their armored version of the VF-14.

Though the YF-19 won Project Supernova there were considerations for mass deployment. The VF-19A and VF-22 can get through Earth's defense grid so they give monkey models to fleets and colonies. Still handling of such units is more fit for ace pilots so they went with a simplified version of the VF-17 the VF-171 Nightmare Plus with Ghosts. Ghosts are cheaper. Macross 7 and the area on Zola was going for a Teal version of the VF-17 instead. Zola had VF-5000 for its Patrol forces.

Come 2050's most frontier planets and fleets are using the VF-171. While on Earth and various special forces they use older but more advanced VF's like the VF-1X Plus, VF-11 VF-19 and VF-22. When the YF-24 Evolution plans were distributed some weren't weren't even considering on switching. Macross 7 had the VF-19 Project Fire. Shinsei's Jan Neumann's VF19ADVANCE is on par or better than a VF-25 on trials. Problem with YF-24 descendants like the VF-25, VF-27, YF-29, YF-30 and VF-31 is that they require Fold Quartz for the ISC and Fold Resonance systems for the later. Fold Quartz became a heavily regulated resource after the NUN saw what Dimension Weapons can do.

Windermere got VF tech from the uplift and with the help of persons related to the Sv-51 developers they made their own Sv series.

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>>14327190
>>14327253
Tell that to her

>>14327946
デス

>>14322614
Couldn't they use something that doesn't suck?

>>14328742
The VF 171 probably has enough performance to out fight anything besides special issue and bleeding edge fighters. Frontier colonies/fleets probably have better things to spend their resources on, such as scouting out and building settlements, improving quality of life, and fostering an economy.

>>14329432
that idol merch isnt going to buy itself

>>14327907

> The VF-19A and VF-22 can get through Earth's defense grid so they give monkey models to fleets and colonies

This makes no sense to me. They only got through the defense net because (a) the defense net was already busy attacking everything else in orbit and (b) they just pretended to be debris and flew dead stick until they were through. ANY varaible fighter could have got through under those conditions, because nothing they had was special in helping them achieve those capabilities.

Even if they had brute forced their way through the defense net all on their own while it was concentrating solely on them, the answer is not "well obviously we just keep those planes for ourselves and sell everyone else shitty ones", it's "fix that shit up to be better fucking fast!" and only a complete moron would think the first option is preferable. It doesn't even fit with the usual model of military idiocy since it requires refusing the chance to make more money by selling good stuff and upgrading existing stuff and instead just selling shittier versions instead.

I realize it's just an excuse and that the real reason is Kawamori felt the VF-19 too heroic, but you'd think he'd have come up with a better in universe reason, like a new political regime coming in to power and cutting funding to the mass production as too expensive and unnecessary or something, pushing a cheaper VF that wasn't even involved in Project Supernova.

>>14329576

> to make more money

To spend more money even.

I surmise that the big difference between VF-25 series and the VF-19/22 is the ease of use.

The project supernova fighters could kill pilots if they couldn't handle the planes hence the introduction of ISC in newer fighters to enable pansy ass faggots to pilot the planes without going 2fast2furious.

This has parallels in modern fighter combat where pilots who have flight hours in the F-15 and F-16 have said that it was easier to get max performance out of an F-16 because of the digital flight control system whereas with the F-15 with manual flight control you had to undergo more training to really get the most out of the aircraft.

>>14329576
The YF-19 and YF-21 had state of the art stealth that let them infiltrate Earth defenses, tech that no other production VF possessed at the time. Without it they would have been discovered and attacked.

>It doesn't even fit with the usual model of military idiocy since it requires refusing the chance to make more money by selling good stuff and upgrading existing stuff and instead just selling shittier versions instead.
Don't the US and Russia already sell downgraded military hardware to other nations and only keep the best for themselves? They aren't giving others access to their best avionics and engines.

>but you'd think he'd have come up with a better in universe reason, like a new political regime coming in to power and cutting funding to the mass production as too expensive and unnecessary or something, pushing a cheaper VF that wasn't even involved in Project Supernova.
Colony fleets/planets have their own control over what fighters they choose to develop and produce for themselves, the main Earth HQ of UNG/NUNG has no control over deciding what to produce other than their Earth defense forces and how advanced the military data they're sending to other fleets are (e.g., YF-24). Consequently a lot of colony worlds end up choosing "cheap but still effective" fighters like the VF-9, VF-5000, and VF-171 over more advanced and expensive alternatives, so what you're proposing doesn't quite make sense in-universe either.

>>14331532
Not just ISC but also ex-gear, tuning for pilot safety, and etc. In Macross Delta they specifically refer to flight assist AI as a crutch for the pilot as well. See the second set of purple text, it mentions design changes for pilot safety and ease of use.

http://www.macross2.net/m3/macross7/vf-19f.htm

YF-21 never had a safety problem though, Guld only injured himself because he intentionally exceeded safe limits as a self-sacrificing move to deal a lethal blow to the Ghost prototype.

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>>14331532
The F-16 has a software limiter built in that physically forces the stick back if it detects the pilot going 2fast2furious, if i recall.

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>>14322584
In Delta they're still using VF-171s but we've only seen an outer rim of the galaxy. Other planets might use others.

>>14331600
Pussy faggots. They just need to get used to the Gs, like Zechs.

>>14331778
While this might work for Viper, good luck surviving post Messiah valks without ISC.
60+G. ha.

>>14331784

Where are you getting the 60+g's number from out of interest? Best I can tell from Googling is that the YF-19 and YF-21 have g tolerances of roughly +32/-17, with the YF-21 having slightly more plus tolerance, but less minus, with Plus pushing the idea that that was the limit of not just human but Zentradi endurance.

I can't find any numbers for a g limit on the VF-25, VF-27 or YF-29. The airframes of both the Messiah and Durandal have a limit of roughly 32gs though according to the Macross2 page, which seems to have good, sourced info. Even then you can tell that the ISC doesn't quite cancel all g force, since Also feels it's effects and is pushed around by and grunting because of g forces when pushing machines to the limit in Frontier.

Zechs struggled to normalise 15g in Wing though, so saying you can get used to 30+g, even fictionally, using him as an example is silly.

>>14332137
The VF-25 has a thrust/weight ratio of roughly 45-50 with the super pack, so it can pull a pretty massive number of G's just from straight-line acceleration. Those numbers get even higher if it's doing any notable maneuvering, often pushing Alto's machine past the ISC's ability to compensate.

The 27 and 29 are even more ridiculously fast.

>>14332156

The thrust to weight ratio doesn't dictate g limit though.

>>14332180
True, but I'm not >>14331784 so I can't say where he found that number. However, considering how absurdly fast the Frontier-era planes can be, I'd be willing to believe a figure like that.

>>14329576
>Even if they had brute forced their way through the defense net all on their own while it was concentrating solely on them, the answer is not "well obviously we just keep those planes for ourselves and sell everyone else shitty ones", it's "fix that shit up to be better fucking fast!"
For all we know they could have done both of that, fix the defence net, and sell shit variants of the VF-19 to the colonies.


>and only a complete moron would think the first option is preferable.
You underestimate how stupid politicians(Regardless of whether they are real or fictional) can be.

>>14332211

Well on its own I wouldn't be surprised at that number. The fact another, reliable page lists a much lower airframe tolerance though makes me doubt it though. It makes me think ISC doesn't increase overall performance, but instead allows pilots to reliably go near those tolerances with much greater ease. With aces like Alto pushing the unit past its limits and feeling g force despite it.

>>14332235
>With aces like Alto pushing the unit past its limits and feeling g force despite it.
I think its just them pushing beyond what the ISC can mitigate at that point and feeling the remaining Gs that the ISC couldn't reduce.

>>14332269

That's what I meant yea. They're pushing past the ISCs (units) limit and reaching the airframes limit along with the human limit. That was definitely bad wording though.

>>14332137
Inertia compensator limits plus fact that Alto was feeling Gs in Frontier.

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>>14331598

> The YF-19 and YF-21 had state of the art stealth that let them infiltrate Earth defenses

Not really. Yang estimated the tech had a 58% chance of it doing so, and before they ever breach Isamu confirms that the defence net has detected them. Which happens before they go dead stick. Yang has to come up with a plan to get them through, which is to play dead and hope for the best. He even says that regardless of Isamu's word that he's lucky, he can't put much faith in that.

> Don't the US and Russia already sell downgraded military hardware to other nations and only keep the best for themselves? They aren't giving others access to their best avionics and engines.

Russia does. They were the ones that coined the phrase monkey model by my understanding. I don't know if the US does, but I wouldn't be surprised. That said, my problem is less that they're selling monkey models of the VF-19 to other planets and more that there's never any mention of them beefing up the defense net in response. Or that Isamu and Guld didn't actually defeat the defense net in any way, since it detected them and both just played dead and hoped for the best as a way past it.

> what you're proposing doesn't quite make sense in-universe either

I'm sure there's a better explanation available, like Frontier and other fleets we do see deciding those VF's are too expensive and unnecessarily high-tech given their probable needs and opting for the VF-17/171/EX instead, since it's really only an issue with portraying fleets we do see as having too heroic a mook, and other fleets aren't really a bother.

>>14332699


>>14332220

> For all we know they could have done both of that, fix the defence net, and sell shit variants of the VF-19 to the colonies.

They very well could have, but it'd be nice to see the same statements that talk about how those units were too dangerous address it. Especially when they didn't really defeat the defense net in any way and telemetry from both units, along with the defense net itself should confirm it.

> You underestimate how stupid politicians(Regardless of whether they are real or fictional) can be.

No, I don't. I'm sure they can be. I'm relying on the military's greed, which is also huge, to want any excuse necessary to spend money on new toys. I don't think any military in history has passed up such a chance.
>>14332689

Okay. So where are you pulling the numbers for the limiter for?

>>14332707
>want any excuse necessary to spend money on new toys
Too bad the military complex in Macross is a little more sensible and tend to make a new plane when the one they are using are showing their age or not good enough against the shit they are fighting.

They make their VFs as per their needs, not just because they want to build one. Remember, there are enough shit going on in the galaxy that the events of Delta are treated as "Minor conflict at the frontier planets" by NUNS HQ. They don't build them just because they can, they build them because they need the planes to shoot the enemy, and they don't fuck around when it comes to that.


>So where are you pulling the numbers for the limiter for?
Not him, but
>After the YF-24 plan was discontinued, a miniaturized and improved ISC progressed from Shinsei Industry's research and that model also withstood high G environment which could catch and shoot down a QF-4000 air-intercepting variant which was developed into the YF-24 Evolution.
>Furthermore, the VF-25's ISC/TO21 improved performance where it is assumed that acceleration of the cockpit at maximum can maintain 27.5G reduction for 120 seconds.

>>14332836

They had good reason though. Their defense net had just been compromised. That's about as good a reason as you're going to get. Nerfing everyone else is nice, but you're going to want to buff yourself as well just in case.

I'd also mention that Project Supernova appears to have been a vanity thing and not to have had any kind of great need, since older planes like the VF-11 weren't showing any real age, given they were only 10 years old. If you go by games, then there's even newer models like the VF-14 Vampire. It's especially unnecessary given that until Sharon Apple attacked the military was planning on making X9-Ghost their new fighter and Project Supernova was given second billing to it. I don't think it really matters, since I was talking more about the military wanting to spend money on the defense net there than on the VFs, but it is still a rather unnecessary thing since you mention it.

> Furthermore, the VF-25's ISC/TO21 improved performance where it is assumed that acceleration of the cockpit at maximum can maintain 27.5G reduction for 120 seconds.

Macross Compendium? Yea, that sounds a lot more in line with what I'm seeing looking around and a maximum load of 27.5 is a lot different than 60+ gs, though the VF-27 may have a higher g tolerance.

>>14332874
>60+ G
My mistake, I've mixed it with Durandal's thrust to weight ratio.

>>14332874
Also,
>Maximum airframe design load: 40.0G (Fighter mode), 32.5G (Battroid mode, due to structural reinforcement) [32.5 kg]

via

>http://macross.anime.net/wiki/YF-29_Durandal#Performance

>>14333513

Oh right. Still, it does look like the Messiah can hit 50 or so and the Durandal 65 or so as a peak. That's the machines limit including the ISC detracting all possible gs though, and I imagine hitting it would cause a lot of stress on the unit. Hitting several gs below it would seem probable as a pilot limit.

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>>14333564
>>14332874

F-15 pulled 30-40gs when it almost hit the sea. Nice save by the pilot.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-adcRA3u8Q

>>14329576
To be fair, wasn't NUNG swept in just after the events of Macross 7? That's a pretty big regime change right there, with a greater increase in autonomy it seems towards colonies.

>>14336163
How long before space zeon?
Or is windermere already space zeon?

>>14336208

The Anti-UN might be Deep Space Zeon, we'll have to wait and see.

>>14336139
And almost folded in itself. Valks envelope is just much bigger, thou one wonders how purposely build modern air superiority drone plane might fly and how many Gs could it withstand.

>>14329576
>. It doesn't even fit with the usual model of military idiocy since it requires refusing the chance to make more money by selling good stuff and upgrading existing stuff and instead just selling shittier versions instead.

That's why the US sells F-22s to its allies, right?

>>14329576
>>14329576

>let's give everyone our cutting edge tech its not like any planets or races we encounter will start an uprising due to some random grudge against us lol

>>14336664
>>14336678

Yea, that's not what I said at all. What I said was that any military in history would jump at the chance to upgrade their own defenses and get new toys instead of just giving lower grade weapons to allies and that the part I found unbelievable wasn't so much them selling lower grade units to their allies as them having that as the only apparent response and not upgrading Earth's defense as well, which we're never told happened, especially when the two units didn't even actually pierce the defense net by anything except luck even by the words of the people involved.

>>14322595
Nope

>>14336694

To be fair to Kawamori's rationalization/the NUNG side, little has been said of Earth's condition, so it's not like it's set in stone that the defense net was never upgraded at all. It's not like Kawamori answered to a question like "state the impact of the Sharon Apple incident", it's just a simple, work-centric interview answer to "why did you design the VF-171?"

Besides I'm pretty sure the main reason(s) are less two fighters making it through the net and more/as well as the various anti-UN groups, malcontents, and breakaway factions prior to the formation of the NUNG that keep getting top-tier tech and reverse-engineering it into something even better.

The last few time it happened, a stolen VF-X-11 resulted in the Feios Valkyrie which was said to be close enough to VF-19/-22 levels of performance. The Varauta fighters were based off the VF-14, which was supposed to be roughly on the same level as the VF-11, but the Fz-series shat all over their NUN counterparts for the most part. The VF-17 is supposed to be a special-ops VF but you see one for sale on the black market in Dynamite instead of just any old VF-11. Galaxy, not the most patriotic of groups, had a literal swarm of AIF-7S and by all accounts they would have been able to sell them legally anytime they wanted.

IRL the US was all over itself preventing Iran from getting ahold of spare Tomcat parts and the F-14 was already long retired, any one of the aforementioned situational equivalents would have had a general frothing at the mouth.

Delta is an even more immediate impact since we have backwater colonies churning out shit that was considered new during Frontier. The background implication is that the UN/NUNG remains aware that Anti-UN sentiments exist, even if its supporters are scattered, and VF technology has finally progressed to the point where they can't keep giving everyone the best and think that they'll still be able to handle it if it gets thrown back at them.

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Wait a minute, if the "poor and needy" colonies and fleets create here are excellent fighters, and apply them in a "local conflicts" to which the central government does not pay attention to the fact that for the monsters must be in service with the armies of the Earth?

>>14341194

Windemere clearly has some kind of outside backing.

My personal theory is that they are being backed by the same group that backed the Galaxy Fleet, if not outright remnants of the Galaxy itself. Windemere rebelled just a year after the Galaxy was defeated and that plan fell through. Grace died, but we saw that when she was in hive queen mode Grace was talking to some disconnected group of people, which could have been anywhere int he galaxy because fold communication. Even with Grace dead, unless all of those people were on the Galaxy itself though would have gotten away uncaught.

This explains where Windemere got a dimensional weapon, who suddenly started supplying them with VF tech, and why Windemere is using technology that so heavily overlaps with Galaxy products (the holographic cockpit system being the most obvious, but if you recall Galaxy made heavy use of Ghost drones as well. Windemere's drone focus could be an easy extension of that).

Even the wind kings plan of using protoculture ruins as a means to enable a fold communication system to take control of people over a long distance... this is basically Grace's plan to control the Vajra, applied to humans directly.

If the Galaxy group doesn't have a hand in Windemere, I will be shocked.

>>14341362
Actually, what happened to galaxy civilians?

>>14341545

We literally don't know. The Galaxy fleet was 'attacked' by the Vajra, and a couple galaxy ships survived to make it to Frontier, sneaking people onto the Frontier ships in the process.

We saw Battle Galaxy again later on, but we never got a positive confirmation of the rest of the galaxy fleet.

Either the attack was largely faked, and they escaped somewhere else leaving only enough ships behind in order to convincingly stage the illusion that the fleet was under attack and mostly destroyed...

Or the vajra killed almost all of them.

The fact that Battle Galaxy made it away and they had plans to keep its survival secret makes me lean towards the former, though. In an actual attack where they had to fight for their lives, Battle Galaxy fleeing like that is basically unthinkable.

>>14341362
The Epsilon guy they waved in your face didnt top you off at all?

>>14341600

We know he is shady, but we don't have any evidence yet that he is Galaxy connected. That would make the most sense, though.

>>14341626
>Galaxy galaxy galaxy
You're a broken record. You're thinking in the wrong direction. Galaxy aren't the big bad behind everything, Anit UNG is. They were behind Galaxy and now Epsilon

>>14341639
> Things thats have been in Macross

The Galaxy fleet and that whole conspiracy

> Things that have never been in Macross

Anti-UNG forces that survived the Unification wars/Space War One and went off to do their own thing.

The whole Anti-UN faction thing is just something that /m/ found a very brief reference to in goddamn Macross 2012, which is basically a music video, and for some reason refuses to let die.

>>14341669
The whole SV-51 to SV-262 designation disagrees, plus the shady galaxy dudes died explicitly in the movie but not the series and Kawamori will never go down a route that confirms only one version of events.

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>>14341669
>>14341674
There is also The Ride, which basically is spy story hidden under awesome air race.
>Stupid sexy Oryol.

>>14344906
What am I looking at here?

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>>14344906
Damn, that redhead gets me every time.

>>14345457
Macross the sports light novel

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>>14345457
Visual representations of the characters and machines in Macross The Ride, a light novel series.

Chelsea best grill

>>14345536
Ugh, you reminded me of that M7 thing.
>>14345509
It makes me happy that even glazed, polish genes survived in such a splendid form.