Iron Man Thread: Mark 43 and 45 Are Pretty Cool Edition Talk

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>>14221287
In a cramped narrow corridor that restricts flight movement, with one broken jet boot and one broken hand repulsor, as well as when fighting with rage rather than a cool collected tactician's head, Tony gets his ass kicked by Cap.

Tony's immediate advantage of flight is nullified and by reducing his available ranged arsenal he's forced to come in close, where he can take a shield to the face. "You can't beat him in close combat!" Friday exclaims to Tony, and it takes an AI to analyze Cap's fighting style for Iron Man to get any punches in edgewise. And ultimately, he STILL loses.

It's not that Cap fans are downplaying Iron Man. It's that Tony had every advantage taken away until he was just a man. Through battle, Cap saw what you get when you take away the suit. Not a genius, playboy, billionaire philanthropist. A petty, emotionally stunted, traumatized orphan.

Senpai...

>>14221164

Is there some database for all the Iron Man suits from the comics?

>>14221929

Dude. This.

When the climax hit I feel like each character became their own best example of their thoughts on the accord. Tony became irrational, aggressive, and consumed with vengeance. Out of control and dangerous to all around him. All the things he thought the safeguards of the accord would put in check.

Captain showed that the best hands to deal with out of control threats on this level were those of calm and level headed Avenger. In the fight, of course, Tony had all the advantages. His suit makes him a fearsome opponent but he has never really understood what makes Captain America such a dangerous opponent.

Tony is dependent on technology and really is nothing without it and so it makes sense for him to think everything of value in Captain America came out of a bottle - but the apex of the fight comes down to something else. Something you can't get from a bottle, or design on a PC - it's the courage to look a seemingly unstoppable force in the eye and say, "I could do this all day". It's a severely injured friend who'd risk his life to safe yours. And in the end it's knocking the safety net a fast lipped child has build around himself right off his head and making it clear you could end him in a heart beat....but knowing you're responsible for saving him too.

I've never felt that Ironman was out of Caps league. Sure in a straight punching match Tony takes it no contest but I've always thought Captain would get the win anytime it really mattered. And he has.

>>14224114
Iron Man is basically the strongest of all Marvel characters that can still job in a way that makes sense. He can punch up to nearly Hulk or Thor-level, but his technology itself can be broken or disabled, which is how guys like Cap or Spidey can even things out.

>>14224114

> Tony is dependent on technology and really is nothing without it

The entire point of Iron-Man three is that Tony did think this and was having PTSD about it, but realized that it's not true and that even without a suit he can still come up with solutions to problems and save people. Technological and scientific solutions, but still solutions that don't rely on the suit to do the work.

I doubt he also thinks the best thing about Steve came out of a bottle. Then again, I think you're wrong about basically your entire post, so that shouldn't be surprising I think. Just because Tony is irrational when learning about his mother's murder and that Steve was too afraid to tell him about it doesn't make the accords wrong. No force should have the immunity to walk in to any country they choose and attack anyone they wish for any reason they can say.

Yes, putting restrains on them will result in them having to talk to corrupt people, but there's just as much chance the Avengers themselves would have corruption in their self-guidance as that the people authorizing them would be corrupt. If you think the system is so corrupt and untrustworthy that you won't even trust it to atuhorize you, why are you fighting to defend it in the first place? Steve's unilateral dictations are no better than any criminal really, because he wants to be able to break national borders, treaties and laws, kill whoever he wants and do whatever he wants without ever answering to anyone because he believes he's right.

>>14224158

You - "I doubt he also thinks the best thing about Steve came out of a bottle."

Tony Stark (Avengers)- "You're a lab rat, Rogers. Everything special about you came out of a bottle!"

Me. "Ha. Ha."

Seriously though. Without his tech - Tony is NOTHING. As for the accords - I didn't say which I agreed with - only that they personified their views during the confrontation. But I mean you're so off the mark from the get go - it's no wonder you ended up in the wrong place.

>>14224189

LOL The Bern.

>>14224189

Yes. Because Tony wasn't (a) attempting to rile Steve, (b) a different person then to now and (c) unfamiliar with Steve at the time. Hes gone through a life or death experience in the mean time and had PTSD experiences that fundamentally changed his view of himself, never mind how it changed his view of others, or how knowing Steve would change hus view of him.

Then again, you apparently didn't consider that in your haste to judge Tony or type out a reply, so it's no surprise you missed something like an entire film's worth of characterisation or the fundamental nature of their relationship at the time he said it.

>>14221897
UN is an evil entity.

>>14224407

Haste? - more like a better understanding of the flaws/nature of the characters. (Also better referenced) Tony has been through a few more movies but hasn't really changed as a character. (The number of films and quality of character development are not automatically related - Ironman 2 was shit) A few moments of PTSD (which seemed to vanish by the end of the movie they were introduced in and never appeared again) and him destroying all his suits to show that he has moved on with his life (which only lasted until the next film) did nothing to reduce his arrogance, sense of superiority, and dependence on machinery - among other flaws. I mean it's not like he admitted recently that the reason he lost Pepper is because he actually hasn't changed all that much at all...He might WANT to but he hasn't. Oh wait...he did admit that....

"Few years ago I almost lost her so i trashed all my suits. Then we had to muck up Hydra. Then Ultron, my fault. And then, and then, and then. I never stopped. Cause the truth is i don't wanna stop."

And as for being unfamiliar with Cap or that not coloring his view of him...

Steve Rogers: "You know, I'm glad Howard got married. I only knew him when he was young and single."

Tony Stark: "Oh really? You two know each other? He never mentioned that. Maybe only a thousand times. God, I hated you."

Captain America and Ironman have respect for each other and are/were friends through shared conflict but from the start they were always separated by their ideologies, views of how to deal with threats, and of course conflicting personalities. It didn't mean they didn't/can't care about each other but it did limit how close they could come. It's the CORE of their relationship. It's what all those films were about. Building up to..a..(wait for it)...Civil War.

I understand you don't get these nuances. (or the big obvious bits) And that's okay with me...Cause I do. I enjoy pointing that out. ha ha.

>>14224407

If I remember I will look for your poorly thought out reply in the morning. Although more than likely I will find having toast more interesting than checking your homework.

>>14224617
/co/ it's time to stop posting

>>14224189
>without his tech Tony is nothing
So he didn't build the Mark 1 in a cave with nothing then

that's the nice thing about tech
you can make it out of literal garbage
engineers are never helpless

>>14225344

Never helpless at all. ...Except when you beat the shit out of them and drive a shield through their chest plates.

>>14226380

You need to realize that Steve was putting in maximum effort, while Tony wasn't willing, but had plenty of opportunity to kill Steve (shield or no shield). It was all non-lethal attacks.

Tank Missile! Laser beam cutting him in half. It would have been over.

>>14224617
Dude, PTSD isn't something that just goes away. He did learn to deal with it on a personal level, but him being more comfortable with himself without the suit does not equal "o hay earth is safe from protodeviln army invasion"

It just re-surfaced in a different form.

>>14226471
This. If Tony wasn't trying to kill Cap, he wouldn't have told him to stand down.

>>14226471

I realize you don't understand that Steve wasn't directing his efforts in the way you're thinking. The entire purpose of that fight (from Zemos POV) was to have the Avengers defeat themselves from within. Steve understood that immediately at the climax (actually he understood the consequences during its initial reveal during Winter Soldier). It's a very simple triangle. Tony tries to murder Winter Soldier (he's out of control and focusing all his efforts in that way - He tried to quickly dispatch Cap but failed. Not out of strategy but out of expedience). Captain America tries to save his friend (again he is NOT trying to kill Stark - he's trying to make the best out of situation that went from 0 to 100 instantly) Bucky tries to escape (and when that is no longer an option he resorts to elimination of the threat and saving his friend) Obviously the only clear thinking one in this situation was Captain America.

You're still not getting that it was NEVER as simple as Cap vs Stark. It was Stark vs. Bucky with Captain America trying to save everyone.

I can see its very important for you to think Ironman was in the driver seat in all of this but he wasn't. Captain America was handicaped by being the only one to understand the entire situation.

>>14226600

Dude? kek. Yeeeesssss....It's true that REAL Post Traumatic Stess Disorder doesn't just go away....but this is a movie and although one writer in one film made it a background element of the story that doesn't mean the next writer will incorporate it. Which is the case. Good point but you've seen it yourself in countless movies. The writers choose which elements carry over from movie to movie and that wasn't one of them.

>>14224128

This.

>>14226645

> It's a very simple triangle. Tony tries to murder Winter Soldier

Which is of course why he disarms and then knocks him out later in the fight when he has the chance.

>>14226645

If you are the same guy who has been oddly arguing that Captain America is better combat-wise the entire thread, then you are mistaken. Once, again Tony could have killed Winter Soldier, and Steve at MANY points throughout the confrontation. (Aiming the arm missile at Bucky instead of the silo doors, tank missile, laser beam, drill missile, etc).

But what Tony wanted was to beat confront Bucky personally, and really lay into him for killing his mom. Physical revenge. Tony's attacks were physically vicious, but non-lethal. He never crossed the line. You really need to understand that. Think about it. If Tony could blow off Bucky's metal arm, he could have easily aimed the beam at a vital non-mushy spot and explode Bucky's chest. Meta Super Arm >>>> Human Chest

Did you not see Iron Man 1 when Tony punched and killed a bunch of terrorists? One full power punch from the Iron Man suit sends a guy flying up upwards 2 to 3 stories. If that kind of punch connected with Bucky's jaw, well....the jaw would shatter, and it would be quite gory.

I don't care who "won" the fight that a lot of fans like yourself argue about, but Iron Man COULD have killed them. It was all non-lethal from Tony's end. This is what happens when Iron Man does want to be lethal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTqa-NEwUbs

ITT: 1 cap fan jerkin it furiously to the idea of Cap being DA best. Skrew Toni.

>>14221897
Are the SH Figuarts just small (befitting RDJ's manlet stature) or are the local Hasbro ones just too big? Which ones are closer to actual character heights?

Not a collector btw, just curious after seeing a mixed display in a m8's house.

>>14226942

Actually one person (plus at least one other guy who also pointed out you're wrong at the start of this thread) who prefers DC to Marvel but understands the nature of the characters more than you do. But uh...nice try.

>>14226923

100% agreed.

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I was on Tony's side back during the original Civil War comics event, from beginning to end and after too. That he got so demonized by comics fans never made complete sense to me.

>>14226983
Hasbro's stuff is of a slightly larger scale.

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>>14227001

Annihilation really shit on Civil War in every aspect, this page especially was icing on the cake.

>>14227037
I liked when SHIELD were shitting themselves because Rich's power level was off the chart.

>>14227001

Fanboys who get butthurt when their characters aren't always on-top. A bunch of man-children, including a some comic writers, who place characters above story.

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War Machine's future suit

>>14227052

I'd say it was more the other way round. Tony became a mustache twirling villain in service to the story, since it needed bad guys and the Pro Registration side to look wrong. So he cloned Thor, made an extra dimensional prison and so on.

>>14227037

I never got this story, or what Nova was mad for. Why does Nova depend on Earth so much? Seriously, you have the entire universe of galactic heroes at your disposal, and you can't deliver results? Nova should be ashamed of himself rather than being mad at Tony (an earth based hero).

It's like the Green Lantern Corp being mad at Red Arrow for not joining the fight in space with his bow & arrow arsenal. It's not Red Arrow's job.

>>14227055

Marvel Comics decided to do that. It didn't just magically happen. If you want to be upset, then be upset at the writer, and editor who wrote Iron Man that way for the Civil War comic series. Being "mad" at a fictional character is bizarre. That would be the mature way to go.

>>14227060
>I never got this story, or what Nova was mad for.

because the author wanted to make IM look dumb

>>14227060
>>14227071

So neither of you must have read Annihilation, but even then you're telling me that you don't understand why Nova is upset that while BILLIONS were dying Earth's heroes were in the middle of a slapfight? If that fight had reached Earth they were fucked, not to mention the "earth based hero" excuse is crap since the Avengers have gotten involved in outerspace shenanigans before.


>It's like the Green Lantern Corp being mad at Red Arrow for not joining the fight in space with his bow & arrow arsenal.

Garbage comparison, garbage post.

>>14227060

Yea, the whole thing feels very mean spirited and petty to me. I guess Earth has a lot of heroes and Rich wanted them all (the F4, the X-men, the Avengers, Hulk and so on) but Tony was the representative so he took it out on him. That final panel is very masturbatory though in my opinion. Oh well. Rich did get results though, since like he said he did kill Annihilation.

>>14227068

I wasn't mad at either anon, just pointing out that the sort came over character, not the other way around in my view. I know Marvel decided it, but my point was never who was to blame.

>>14227075

>you're telling me that you don't understand why..

No.

learn 2 reading comprehenshen fanboi

>>14227084

Annihilus, not Annihilation. Story, not sort. Damn phone.

>>14227083
>>14227088

You still fucked it up even when you deleted your post to correct, hilarious.

>>14227098

go back to /co/ manboy.

>>14226923

Look I understand this. You really don't know what you saw. And now that it's been pointed out to you there is only one thing you can do: keep going over the same points. But your points (although somewhat correct out of context) are not what the fight was about. Yes of course Ironman normally would beat Captain America in a slugging match. But that's not what that fight was about. This wasn't a normal situation. Tony was an emotional train wreck aimed at Bucky. He had every intention of killing Bucky. And he tried to.
Sigh...
Fight break down:
Tony learns Bucky killed his mom.
Asks Cap if he knew.
Finds out the answer is 'yes'.
Tony goes off the deep end.
Blasts Captain America and goes directly after Bucky. (this is important because as I mentioned before he's not fighting Cap he's trying to kill Bucky.)
Bucky and Tony struggle and Tony gets on top and goes for a repulsor blast.
Cap interrupts with his shield.
Tony binds Caps legs (again he wants Bucky not Cap - Tony isn't thinking clearly here - he's not using his brains - he's just trying to grab the guy who killed his mom and beat him to death).
Tony gets the advantage again and tries to blast Bucky in the face but Bucky stops him with his robot arm and disables one of Tonys repulsors.
Tony then tries to fire a rocket point blank into Bucky's face but Bucky redirects it with his other hand.
Cap frees himself and Bucky/Tony are separated due to falling debris.
(so far Tony has tried to MURDER him three times and failed)
Tony is pinned down by debris.
Cap tells Bucky to escape.
Ironman goes after Bucky.
Shoots at him but misses.
Cap gets between them while Bucky climbs the silo.
Cap tries to reason with Tony.
Tony isn't listening.
Tony tries to fly past Cap but Cap catches him and disables one of his boot jets.
Tony separates them by causing debris to fall between them. (again cause I know this need to be spelled out to you. This is a triangle fight.)
prt1

prt2

Bucky is halfway up the silo and Tony goes after him.
Friday tells Tony that his flight is compromised. (Trying to tackle Bucky like before won’t work )
Tony flies up as best he can and kicks Bucky.
When Bucky is down he tries to finish him off but again Cap intercedes.
Caps shield deflects Tonys repulsor blast back at him – knocking him partway down the silo.
Steve realizes Tony has lost control of himself and isn’t going to stop.
((Pause: Tony has attempted to kill Bucky five times at this point but was stopped by either of the two super soldiers))
Cap readies a laso like device in an attempt to subdue Tony.
It partially works as Tony is flung near the bottom of the silo while Cap manages to hold a ledge.
Tony readies another rocket but is interupted by Cap throwing a shield at him.
Tony blasts the shield out of the way and it falls the bottom of the silo.
Tony tries to get a fix on Bucky but Friday tells him the targeting system is out.
Tony switches to a larger/easier to hit target.
He blows the hinges off the silo and seals himself in with Bucky. (Tony is still trying to kill him at this point and has effectively locked Bucky and himself in a cage together.)
He flies up to Bucky.
Bucky hits him with a pipe.
Tony takes the hit and gets him in a rear choke – And starts talking to Bucky “Do you even remember them?” (I know you’re kinda slow so I’ll explain this to you. Tony is consumed with venegence and is about to try and kill Bucky again. Yes – IF the characters were devoid of emotion Tony could kill him right here but that’s the point – Tony isn’t not devoid of emotion – he’s consumed by it – he wants Bucky to know Who he is and WHY he’s doing this before he kills him.)
Bucky says, “I remember all of them.” While pushing off against the wall.
He and Tony fall through the air but are tackled by Captain America.
The three topple to the bottom of the silo.

prt3

Bucky lands on a ledge and Cap and Tony land where rocket exhaust is vented.
Tony and Cap struggle to their feet.
Cap tries to reason with Tony again.
Tony doubles down his intentions, “I don’t care. He killed my mom.”
Tony flies at Steve and they exchange blows. (whether Tony is trying to subdue Captain America to take him out of the fight or is fighting him because he knew Bucky killed his mom or is simply blinded by rage isn’t really clear – although I’m inclined to believe it’s all three to some extent)
Cap avoids Tonys attacks and gets him in a rear choke. (Very different from when Tony did the same thing to Bucky earlier – Cap is the only reasonable one here and is trying to end the fighting)
Tony pushes off the wall using a repulsor blast to break the hold.
Tony gets on top of Steve and tries to punch his head.
Cap rolls off the to side and avoids the first one but still gets punched a few times.
Bucky comes to and sees Caps shield.
Bucky dives in with the shield and knocks Tony down.
Tony blasts him but Bucky uses the shield to deflect it.
Cap and Bucky team up on Tony.
Tony blasts Cap and immediately turns to fight Bucky.
Tony and Bucky exchange blows.
Tony then uses his laser/repulsor blast (continuous stream) to attack Bucky.
Bucky grabs his arm and redirects it towards the ceiling with his human arm. (Bucky IS a supersolidier afterall)
Bucky nails Tony in the chest and tries to rip out the power source from Tonys chest.
Tony fires his unibeam and blows Buckys arm off.
Tony shoots Bucky once but is immediately set upon by Cap.
Captain America puts himself between Bucky and Tony and rushes at Tony using the shield to deflect his repulsor rays.
(the story moves to Black Panther and Zemo)
Captain America is beating on Tony.
Friday explains to Tony that he can’t beat Cap in a hand to hand fight.
Tony asks Friday to analyze Caps fighting style and deploy a countermeasure.

prt4

The suit catches the shield and knocks it away and then proceeds to shoot Cap.
Tony then rushes at Cap and begins to beat on him.
Tony shoots him point blank knocking Cap down.
Cap is between Bucky and Tony and says “He’s my friend”
Tony says, “So was I.”
Tony wails on Cap and tosses him aside saying, “Stay down. Final Warning.”
(Again He wants to kill Bucky but its clear at this point that Cap won’t let that happen so Tony is dealing with one guy to get to the other. Also this is the release point of all their tension they’ve built up through the movies – kinda like Batman and Superman in DKR)
Cap stands to his feet saying, “I could do this all day.”
((This is also the ONLY POINT in the fight where there is a break in the action – it’s important because it shows what the protagonist of the story is made of. I, myself, was never a big fan of Captain America ...I’m not even American but I am now that I saw this.))
Tony raises his hand to shoot Cap. (Again I never said he was trying to kill Cap but he certainly was trying to kill Bucky.)
Bucky, whom Tony thought was out, grabs his leg.
Tony boots him.
Steve grabs Tony from behind and gorilla presses him.
Tony activates his boosters to fly away but Cap redirects Tony so he lands against the wall in a prone position.
Cap gets on top of him and wails on Tonys helmet.
Cap grabs his shield and busts the helmet off Tonys head.
Cap raises his shield as though he were going to kill Tony.
Tony tries to shield his face.
Captain Embeds the shield through the powersource on Tonys chest.
Cap and Tony look at each other.
Tony is clearly bewildered.
Cap slumps off Tony and stands up and rips the shield from his chest.
Tony is beaten.
Cap helps Bucky to his feet.
Tony ,lying on the floor, screams that the shield was made by his father and Cap shouldn’t have it.
Cap drops the shield.
Tony tries to get to his knees but slumps back down.
Fight is over.

The reason Tony never crossed "that line" wasn't for lack of trying, son. Cap was there to stop him. That's it. Captain understood the situation better than Tony did. Tony was trying to kill Bucky. And Cap wouldn't let him.

>>14227115
>>14221929

This thread is stupid. Iron Man fought Thor head-on slamming into mountains, and took Thor's hammer. They nerfed Iron Man for the sake of drama for the movie. Under normal circumstances, Cap/WinterSoldier would be destroyed. End of Petty discussion.

>>14227126

> No guys, you don't understand, he wants to kill Bucky and is completely irrational
> Rationally directs Friday to analyze patterns and give him help
> Only knocks out Bucky with a relatively gentle kick to the head when he interrupts him despite having a Repulsor charged for Cap he could have used
> Ignores Bucky's limp form behind him in favor of Cap for several seconds
> Bucky has to get between Steve and Tony on at least one occasion

Yea, he sure did want to kill him, what with knocking him out and all. I'm sure that went a long way towards doing so.

>>14227141

I think you missed the point of contention in this petty discussion.

>>14227141

Not unless either MCU Cap is Asgardian-tier or MCU Thor is nerfed so hard that his feats are easily replicated by superhuman-lites like Cap and Bucky.

>>14227172

Neither Cap nor Bucky are even close to Thor's level. Thor tore Tony face plate off easily with his bare hands (I think it might even have been his off hand). Cap had to hit it a few times with his shield to dislodge it, while Bucky spent several seconds of obvious exertion just to dig his fingertips in to the side of it.

They're strong, they out run cars,dodge bullets and Cap can hold down a helicopter taking off - but they're not on Thor's level.

>>14227054
what if tony forgot to motorize the wheels and he had to push himself into battle

>>14227060
this is why you don't mix earth shit with cosmic shit

this thread devolved really quickly into power level wankery instead of talking about suits.

the mark II thread is so much better in that regard, i'd delete this one if i could

>>14227327

Write to a mod and ask about deleting it I guess. Or report it and hope for the best.

>>14227169


Ha ha. Relatively gentle kick to the head? What? bwa ha ha.

1. He didn't rationally direct Friday to do anything. Friday had to yell at him that he couldn't win this way because Tony was caught up in the fight. Tony was neither rational at this point in the fight nor did he have a strategy. He's an engineer so he used the lingo he knows best but he wasn't calm or rational.

2. He knocked Bucky down with a kick and literally the NEXT FRAME OF FILM shows Steve grabbing him. Tony had no chance to do anything else. (Like fire a repulsor blast into his face like he tried to do three minutes earlier or try to fire a rocket point blank at his head a minute after that. Wasn't trying to kill him? ha ha)

3. Tony turned all his attention to Steve at this point for the obvious reason. Steve has interrupted Tony's attempts to kill Bucky SIX TIMES already. Watch the fight again and count the number of times Steve prevents Tony from attacking. Too lazy? I'll do it for you. Six times. That's why Tony deals with Steve at this point. He knows Steve will stop him unless he deals with Steve first. (It also brings to a head their own conflicts but I don't imagine nuances like that register with you.)

And your last point doesn't mean anything...like most of your other points. Tony dealt with Steve to get to him out of the way to deal with Bucky. He took too long. Bucky tripped him up and Steve finished him off.

But yeah. Trying to shoot someone in the face with a rocket.... yeah that's "relatively gentle" too huh? ha ha

>>14227437

Tony has both Steve and Bucky dead to rights at least once each during the fight and kills neither. When Bucky is kneeling just after losing his arm Tony has a clear shot at him. He could use it to unibeam him to death, since the last one took off his arm, he could hit him with a repulsor to the head and possibly kill him, he does neither. Instead he hits him in the side with a repulsor to put him out of the fight. Bucky is then down for the longest he is in the fight.

Another example would be when he's chasing Bucky up the escape pipe. Steve is lower down and Tony has a clear shot but he instead kicks him and then puts Bucky in a choke hold a few seconds later as he talks to him. Which again, isn't the action of an irrational person only interested in killing his target.

Tony doesn't even touch him when Bucky is out on the ground a short while later, despite him being the one to do it and standing in front of him for 5 or 6 seconds. He doesn't even try despite having opportunity since he could have ignored Steve for at least another second. Instead, he fights Cap.

He focuses on Cap because he's angry at both. Bucky killed his parents, but Steve was his friend and betrayed him by not telling him. He even says so. The first thing he does in the fight is hit Steve.

And even when Cap is down and he has the time to tell him to "stay down", he stands still for several seconds while Bucky is literally right behind him but he doesn't even look at Bucky. He instead just stands there looking at Cap. Waiting for him. For 20 seconds. I checked. During which time he had the advantage and could have killed the guy lying on the ground behind him. He didn't though.

>>14227746

Which is not the actions of an irrational person. An irrational person would be fixated on their target to the detriment of all else. Tony defends himself, talks to Friday, mutters to himself and chooses not to kill when he has the opportunity. Because he doesn't want to kill, just harm. He's angry at them, but not lethally so. Not only does he not kill them when given the chance, he uses non-lethal cuffs on Steve and when he spots the debris falling while fighting Bucky he actually covers Bucky with his suit/body and throws him out of its path. Which is why Bucky crashes in to the ground out of its wake.

Even in the instance you mention (the kick), Steve is just up when Bucky gets his attention (and he had to, because Tony is no longer looking at nor does he care about him, because he's out as far as Tony is concerned), but Tony has the chance to use the arm he had raised to shoot at Steve on him and doesn't. He turns, while lowering his arm and kicks him. Which will hurt, but won't be lethal like a repulsor might be.

Even the missile thing you mentioned is out of context. Tony tries to use his repulsor on Bucky, Bucky crushes it and only then does he use a missile. Which you assume was always going to be aimed at his head for some reason. But which there is no real proof of or cause to believe when he always hits them with non-letal options when given a clear shot and is the one to save Bucky from the debris of that missile a few seconds later.

>>14227746


Are you still here? We settled this. Tony DID try to kill Bucky. All your points are off the mark. You have the impression that Tony walked around and took his time with this fight with the intention of merely phoning in a low level beating. I've already gone through the whole fight. They whole damn thing. In point form. Ha ha. Beat for beat. Although the entire fight is basically Tony's attempt at vengence you can point exactly four moments when he tries to end the life of Bucky Barnes. All of them thwarted by Stever Rogers. Tony's no hero in this situation.

The only time the action comes to a pause is at the moment I've mentioned before. Look I understand....You don't know what happened and it seems REALLY important for you to think your favorite character is baddass. I get it, son. I really do.

Four words: Rocket. To. The. Face.
Tony was trying to kill Bucky and Cap wouldn't let him. In time...with counseling... I think you'll come to see that.

>>14227753

Son, I'm watching it now. It's aimed at Buckys head because TONY IS AIMING IT AT HIS HEAD. Ha ha. Point Blank. And he fires it. ha ha. You're trying too hard. Oh man this is awesome. ....question...Are you high right now? Or trying to impress a girl? Or retarded? I'm just trying to account for why you'd go this far into silly conjecture to explain why a fictional character who is very clearly emotionally unstable isn't so.

>>14227753

Another small point is that the nature of an irrational action is that it acts irrationally. Tony muttering to himself or using his tools to help him murder someone are hardly proof that he's the well balanced one in this equation. You seem to think that there is only way way to behave in an irrational fashion but by its nature irrationality cannot be confined so. Although the points you made don't even count as evidence as such. Tony has clearly gone around the bend during the fight. As I said before. A triangle. Tony wants to kill Bucky. Cap wants to save Bucky. And Bucky wants to escape and/or help Cap.

>>14227746

And just so you know I'm not even taking into account all the times Tony fired his repulsors while in the midst of combat. Those less accurate "wild" shots while brawling aren't what I meant. (Although they do reinforce my argument) I'm talking about the four distinct times he had Bucky "dead to rights" (as you put it) AND took the shot (attempting to kill him). Each of those interrupted by Captain America.

>>14227783

I've watched it too. And he uses a repulsor first, a missile as a second choice and then throws Bucky out of the way of the debris seconds later. You can use all the hilarious language you want, it doesn't change that he helped save Bucky then from the attack you keep insisting was meant to kill him. And that the Repulsors did no damage the entire fight. Even when one is redirected to a ceiling it doesn't leave a scratch. Not exactly legal. Especially to superhuman. The worst is did is knock them down. Only the unibeam, lasers and the missile damaged anything.

>>14227906

Legal? I think you mean "Lethal". And they are. Take a closer look. Cap has a hole in his chest armor where he took a repulsor blast from several feet away. (And there's no way I'm going to go through all the damage done buy Tony's weapons in the fight - but suffice to say they bloody up Cap and Bucky rather well and nearly destroy the silo.) Are you telling me that taking one of those shots to an unarmored skull from point blank range isn't going to kill that person? (Watch Ironman 2 when he's blowing drones in half with it and tell me how non lethal it is. Or Ironman 3 when he blasts a hole through one of the superhumans.)

My language aside - Tony attempts to use his repulsors at point blank range to kill Bucky three times and uses a rocket once. (which you've already admitted.)

Even if you were right (which you're not) and Tony only tried to kill Bucky once (and not four times.) It still means he tried to kill him.

Think about it.

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New guy to the discussion, here.

The thing about the fight between Bucky, Cap, and Stark is that I'm entirely sure even Stark knows what the hell he wants to do with Bucky. He indeed had multiple chances to kill him, and most certainly held back with both opponents, moreso with Cap (otherwise, he just would have used the missile/lasers to kill Bucky earlier and to do more than destroy the environment to slow them down.) Stark, during that fight, is not in his right mind, and he's almost constantly alternating between trying to outright kill Bucky and merely brutalize him, but he never tried to kill Cap. As pissed as he is with Cap, he's merely Stark's obstacle in the movie, not his target.

>>14227783
Stop saying ha ha. This isn't fucking NeoGaf, newfag.

>>14227945
dumb nigger, check the archive and tell me how many times typed laughing shows up

>>14227945

This is the interwebs. I'll say whatever the fuck I want. So be surprised that I'm not too worried about your opinions. Ha ha.

As I said - Tony was never trying to kill Steve - but he WAS trying to kill Bucky. He tried to kill Bucky but was stopped by Captain America. As for your other points...well I already made those earlier. But in summary - Tony DID have multiple CHANCES to kill Bucky and he took all those opportunities. He failed to kill him because each one was stopped by Cap.

Did you think pretending to be a different person would change what was in the film or something?

>>14227964

I kek'd.

>>14227936

Yes I meant lethal, auto correct got it.

Also, do you really think Tony is using the same Repulsors at the same power in this film as Iron Man 2? When one doesn't even scratch a ceiling yet a laser drops the same rock? When he and Rhodey have an abundance if non-lethal weapons through the film. Of course he isn't.

He doesn't try to kill either of them, he just wants to hurt the shit out of them. Hence why he only knocks out Bucky. Hence why he saves him from the debris of the attack you keep saying is meant to kill him. Hence why he uses non-lethal weaponry through the film. Hence why he gave Cap a warning and spent literally 20 seconds watching and waiting for him without attacking Bucky despite the opportunity while Bucky was right behind him.

>>14227982

Rocket to the face, son.

(and ...yes. I'm sure a repulsor to the head at that range would also have killed Bucky. But Rocket to the face sounds better and makes a clearer point.)

>>14227982

Just watched it again. It's pretty fucking clear. The first time Tony tries to kill him his hand is less than six inches from Bucky's face and the second time he puts the PALM OF HIS HAND on Buckys FOREHEAD. Ha ha. And when that fails he aims the rocket directly at his face and shoots. Only being diverted at the last instant.

>>14227988

Rocket to the face also avoids explains ng why he'd save Bucky from falling debris that rocket causes seconds later.

>>14228011

He didn't save Bucky from falling debris. In the shot where silo is exploding you can see Cap in the foreground and Bucky and Tony in the background. Tony is clearly punching Bucky in the face - he stops in the next shot when he raises his arms to protect himself from the part of the structure that was collapsing and Bucky falls free. It happens very fast but Tony never tries to save Bucky. But again - even if that were true it still doesn't mean that Tony didn't try to kill Bucky. He did. Four times. ha ha.

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The thing that bugs me about Iron Man now is that the suits technology takes advantage of CGI cheats too much.

My specific problem is with how Tony's helmet magically folds into his collar. It just does not look possible in a realistic sense of where Tony's technology is at. I realize we are talking about a suit that has a lot of fantastic technology, but the collar on the actual physical suit RDJ wears does not look like it can retract a full helmet into it. I liked the old days when the faceplate flipped up, but apparently they have to make the audience feel like Tony is making huge advancements in suit tech between each Marvel movie, and for me it has gotten to the point where CGI is making thing magically happen that are not grounded in reality. Even with the "UH, DUDE ITS A COMIC BOOK MOVIE" counter-argument as part of my criticism.

>>14228023

I'd suggest you watch again then. In slow motion if need be. He turns, puts himself over Bucky and then throws him. Which is why the debris falls on Tony but not on Bucky. Who falls clear of it despite being in the same place as Tony, with Tony holding him and no purchase or position to jump clear.

What do you think he jumped off to fall clear? The air? He wouldn't fall that far from Tony. Not to mention you do actually see Tony turn to brace his back and protect Bucky then throw him.

>>14228054
i think the "faceplate-sliding-down" CLUNK is a lot more satisfying in a tactile kind of way. it's metal hitting metal in a fashion we're familiar with.

but yeah, like you said, it feels like they're just adding to features to the armor for the hell of it. also probably because RDJ isn't a fan of wearing the suit.

i'm sure the people who designed the 46 put at least a modicum of thought into the helmet folding away. it probably collapses origami style and folds into his back, explaining why his armor is so damn fragile

>>14228055

I did watch it again. He does no such thing. It's a second long clip and after punching Bucky he turns to raise his arms and shield himself. Besides even if that were true it doesn't change my point. He tries to kill Bucky four times.

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>>14227974
>Tony DID have multiple CHANCES to kill Bucky and he took all those opportunities.

Wrong. Immediately after he blew off Bucky's arm, he had his chance to blow his head clean off, but instead repulsored him with a weak shot in the back and turned his attention to Cap.

Not to mention, y'know...barely using his available arsenal beyond his fists and repulsors to do more than destroy the environment.

Stark was in pure rage mode. He simultaneously wanted to beat the piss out of him, make him pay for his crimes, and outright murder him. He had no idea what his endgame for Bucky entailed; all he knew was the man that killed his parents was right there and Cap hid the truth, a combination resulting in a very angry, very confused, very heartbroken Tony.

>>14228054

I remember watching Lost in Space and thinking a similar thing with their tactical space suit. Metal folding into metal can come off as silly if done wrong. That's one of the reasons I liked the first design of Ultimate Ironman from the comics. It was a large clunky suit but it looked like it had an actual guy in there surrounded by real gear. The big cheat with Ironman in the MCU is having all that gear with him in the space provided. Looks good though.

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>>14227974
>interwebs
>haha

It's like I'm really on facebook.

Anyway, I really hope they do a proper Bleeding Edge in the movies.

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Why are you fags even using this thread? We had an Iron Man thread up already, we don't need fucking two; >>14221164

>>14228061

Tony was using his fists because he wasn't thinking. Obviously. Why do you think his first two big attacks on Bucky were to grab him by the throat hold him down and then to try and shoot him in the head? You can't expect him to behave like the terminator. Devoid of emotion. Tony TRIED to kill Bucky. Not as Ironman. But as a deeply wounded soul. Counting a frame here or a frame there where an unfeeling person with a rational mind working towards the same goal would do something different doesn't mean anything.

As for the moment when Tony blows his arm off. Look again. Tony blows his arm off. (we have a shot of Bucky with no arm so we the audience can understand what we're looking at with Tony in the background raising his arms to shoot him and charging his repulsor.)
Tony shoots him. Bucky falls and the very next frame is Captain America attacking him.

Tony didn't turn his attention to Cap. Cap rushed at him. Tony had to confront Cap because Cap was putting himself between him and Bucky.

The only part you're getting right is that Tony was in rage mode and tried to kill Bucky.

>>14228077

Good point. Off to bed for now.

>>14228102
>Tony doesn't take the very, very open opportunity to roast Bucky right then and there.
>H-HE JUST WASN'T THINKING!

>>14228059

The rest of your points rest on a repulsor so weak it doesn't even damage the environment they're in (there's not even a scorch mark) and he has to use lasers to do so instead. They'll do fuck all to a superhuman, even as a point blank headshot. When he does get the chance later, and Tony does have it after he blows off Bucky's arm, he just shoots him in the side instead. It hits, does no damage and knocks him down. Cap is on the other side of the room and struggling to his feet at the time. Tony has the luxury of choice of targets and shoots his side, not his head.

>>14228102
>Tony was using his fists because he wasn't thinking.
He was certainly thinking straight enough to use his lasers on the roof when he realizes his repulsors wouldn't do the trick, or to use his missile to destroy the silo door when his targeting system was out of commission.
ha ha

>>14228102

The very next frame (being generous) is Cap running across the room Shields raised and blocking Tony's attack. He has six seconds before that to shoot Bucky and clearly picks his side, not his head. Ample time to choose whatever target he wants.

Do remember that Tony probably wanted Bucky to suffer, not to just kill him and be done with it. It's much more satisfying when you're angry to see the victim of your rage screaming in agony than to murder them right away.

>>14228106

Ha ha. Seriously? Son, he SHOOTS Bucky in the next frame. Do have some homemade score card or something where you can square what you're selling with what's on the film?

You - "If he doesn't shoot Bucky within three seconds it PROVES he's not trying to kill him at all."

Logic - "But Tony is very clearly upset and he shoots Bucky in the next frame. I mean that's how movies are put together - frame by frame. He shoots him like a moment later."

You - "Doesn't count. Then he attacks Captain America."

Logic - "But Captain America CLEARY rushes in to save his friend from an inevitable arse kicking. You can see him do it. He does it like five or six times in the fight. Cap attacks Tony."

You - "Nope. Doesn't count. So that means Tony's angry but not trying to kill anyone."

Logic - "But he tried to fire a rocket into Bucky's face."

You - "Nope. Special non lethal rockets."

Logic - "And I suppose those repulsor blasts to the face would have been non lethal too."

You - "Naturally. Special repulsor beams Tony built for himself in case he ever found out who killed his mom."

This is how you sound. I don't even LIKE Captain America. (I'm a DC fan) But I do like to understand what I'm looking at and talking about. Sheesh.

>>14228136

He shoots him in the side despite having several seconds to aim higher if he wants.

>>14228118

It's not being generous at all, dummy. It's the NEXT FRAME after Bucky is shot. You think Tony (who has no reliable targeting equipment at this point by the way) is making delicate shots on the guy who murdered his mom? ha ha.

>>14228146

Again. It's nice conjecture but it still doesn't change what happened. Tony tried to kill Bucky. Four times. But uh...nice try, son.

>>14228147

I think if he's taking several seconds to shoot him in the side he is yea. Also, his missiles have no targeting, not all his weapons - he hits his mark consistently without eyeballing while fighting Steve after that point using the same weapons so there's no grounds to say those systems are out.

And Yea, it is being generous, because Cap's attack is him running across the room to get to Tony, while Tony has adequate time before that point to aim 6 seconds to he precise.

>>14228153

Taking this one shot at a time anon, since apparently it's the only way. He shot him in the side there, so that's down one effort.

>>14228188

Sorry, pal. Still unconvincing. You'll just have to be wrong. If you want to go through it one shot at a time I already did at the top of the thread. But you'll do it alone. The fight clearly shows him trying to kill Bucky.

Some mutha fuckers are always trying to iceskate up hill.

or in other words Rocket to the face. Ha ha.

>>14228225

Yea, I did make a big post and then you ignored the whole thing to go "LOL no, you're wrong". So there's no point trying again. He shot him in the side there despite ample time to aim, using the weakest weapon he had that doesn't even scratch a ceiling and your denial or attempts at comedy won't change that.

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>>14227945
This. Just came back from seeing it again with my little brother, and I didn't notice it the the first time, but Stark isn't nearly going all out in the fight.

Even enclosed spaces don't seem to hinder him nearly as much as people seem to think they do, if the boat battle in Age of Ultron is to be believed. I'm more inclined to say that Stark was venting and didn't really have a clear goal in mind in regards to Bucky. All he knew is his parents were dead and he wanted to fuck him up real bad, and if that meant killing or incapacitating him, so be it.

>>14228303

Yea, that's my feeling too. He wants to shout and rage and hurt Bucky, but he's fairly rational throughout and by the end his main beef is with Steve for hiding it. He wants to bring Steve in, and probably Bucky too, to prove his view is right and hurt Steve at the same time. Bringing Steve in is his win really, since it vindicates him and, as much as he thought about it on the spot is his revenge for his parents. He might feel different later, but on the spot he just wants to hurt them, win and bring them in to prove he was right and his way was best.

>>14228303
>in this concept art, war machine looks like he's gonna friendly fire vision
>the tables get turned in the movie
POETRY

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>>14227055
>Tony became a mustache twirling villain in service to the story,

See, this is the attitude I don't understand. How was he villainous? He wasn't. Everything he did and said made perfect sense, and was totally reasonable.

(With the exception of Stark Industries being made an analog for Halliburton -- and that was ONLY in Civil War Frontline. I blame the writer of that miniseries, Paul Jenkins, for that bad call -- he was "given carte blanche to have the stories reflect the current political landscape in the United States.")

>since it needed bad guys and the Pro Registration side to look wrong.

No, I don't think that's true at all. Not during the events of Civil War. Both sides had good points, and someone had to win. The whole point of Civil War was that neither side were "bad guys" and neither side was "wrong" -- at least not completely so.

>So he cloned Thor

So? That's not inherently bad; the clone went outta control, but that was an accident, not an act of evil on Tony's part.

>made an extra dimensional prison

To quote Tony, "where else do you propose we put them?!?" -- These are Avengers, X-Men, lots of top-level superheroes. They can and will escape from anyplace, including The Raft. (Hell, they escaped said Negative Zone prison too.)

>and so on.

...?

>>14228286

I didn't ignore it. I read it and was unconvinced. The reason I was unconvinced is because I watched the movie. ha ha ha. Then I watched it again during your previous posts. Then I went through the ENTIRE FIGHT beat by beat and pointed out the four times he attempted to murder Bucky. (drum roll and in no particular order) 1. He tried to shoot a rocket into Bucky's face. Done. 2. And tried to shoot him in the head at point blank range 3. (twice) and 4. tried to shoot him when he was down and he had a perfect target. Not to mention the ENTIRE SCENE hinges on the notion that Tony is out of control and wants to kill Bucky.

But uh...yeah .....Rocket to the face, son.

>>14228286

Your argument really boils down to "Tony didn't successfully kill him in one part of the fight so trying to kill him in an earlier part of the fight didn't happen." Which is idiotic. ha ha ha ha.

>>14229204

The problem with your argument is that while you say Tony was trying to kill Bucky, the power of his suit is not consistent with previous Marvel movies. Like when Tony fought Thor, Hulk, and even the terrorists in Gulmira.

So that leaves you with 2 options:

1. You say that Iron Man's armor and weapons is weaker/more fragile for various reasons - -(he's going non-lethal, and more complex parts)

2. Cap is on-par with Thor and Hulk
-I don't think you wanna go this route.

Because as it stands right now it has to be one of these two, so which is it?

>>14229262
>hurrr cap isn't on par with thor and hulk

Nice one newfaggot, read the comics.

Reminder that Cap can withstand a sustained beating from Ultron and keep trucking while Thor was helplessly ragdolled like a bitch.

MCU Captain America>MCU Thor>Iron Man

>>14228400
This pissed me off so much. This isn't something Cap would do. If Steve says he has five minutes, Stark gets five minutes to talk. He's not the kind of person to pull underhanded shit like this, no matter how desperate or in-danger he is.

It's like 616 Cap got replaced with Ultimates Cap for a comic arc, and even this is a bit much for Ultimates Cap.

Fuck Mark Millar. I hope that Scottish piece of shit never works for Marvel ever again.

>>14230306
i like this a lot

they should make a marvel noir with tony stark as an adventure scientist running around with mike mignola designed steam inventions

>>14227746

Tony wasn't trying to kill steve, he was trying to kill bucky

I thought that was pretty clear

>>14229262

Actually what you consider a flaw in my argument is not actually relevant. Regardless of the previous films (which I used for consideration of lethal power of the repulsor blast and nothing more) we know what THIS suit is capable of. Tony knows what damage his suit can do because he built it. And WE know what it can do because we've seen him use it in that scene.

example:
Tony attempts to fire his rocket into Buckys face.
Bucky knocked Tony's arm away just before it finished being fired.
So we know he TRIED to fire the rocket at Bucky.
We can understand what that would do to Bucky because the rocket DID EXPLODE when it hit something. (in this case the wall behind him.)
That section of the exploded and started the collapse of some of the interior of the structure.
We know Bucky wouldn't have survived that at point blank range.
So unless you're really really trying not to see it - you should easily understand that was Tony attempting to MURDER Bucky.

As for your options...well - your basis for understanding the situation is off and so neither of those are relevant or accurate. But nice try, son! ha ha ha.

>>14230343

Glad someone else also understood what they saw! :D

bumping for more discussion

>>14229204
>>14230563
>>14230569
>>14229211
>>14228225
>>14228147
...

Endless Samefagging

Take your nonsense fanboy versus back to /co/ where you guys argue about Goku vs Superman for days on end. Our job isn't to convince you of what is obvious. It's clear you get your rocks off on Captain America always numba won.

>>14230653
>samefagging
that word doesn't mean what you think it means

>>14230653

Ah ha ha ha ha ha! You're that same guy aren't you? ha ha ha. Well I guess if I were an idiot I'd look for an easy way out too.

Know what tipped me off? The way you started off by complaining I was in the wrong board but you had to slip in "convince you of what is obvious" - If you really thought I were in the wrong board you wouldn't have picked a side. You'd want us "both" out.

Sigh....I love it! There's no "job" here, my dear. But I do LOVE pointing out that stupid people are stupid.

ha ha ha.

>>14230664

This.

>>14230655
>>14230664
>>14230670

Samefag

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>>14230697
k

>>14226380
I like how so many capfags are saying cap beating tony is somehow his feat.
He literally had all the help from Bucky and if Bucky didn't swoop Tony at the last minute he would've been fucked.
Ironman's stronger than Cap and that's an absolute fact.

>>14230702

Ha ha ha. Actually I think there are least three people in this thread besides that one guy who keeps trying to defend Tony. I know I've been here shooting down all his posts. (I will admit I am 50% trolling him but I'm bored) Ha ha.

Just came back from seeing the movie. I'm confused by 2 things I don't get.

1. Is the armor weaker in this movie? Both War Machine and Iron Man went down too easly. Thor is my favorite character, but Iron Man put up a way better fight than he did against Thor.

2. How much does the armor weigh??? Cuz in the first movie the armor was so heavy it broke through Tony's roof, his second story, and through a car when he landed off a 3 feet drop on his house. That armors gotta be 2000 to 3000 pounds to that, and Cap gorilla presses it cold. Superhuman or not, I don't buy it.

>>14230752

>Thor is my favorite character, but Iron Man put up a way better fight than he did against Thor.

Sorry I mean not as good fight against Captain America but the Thor fight was way more intense. But Iron Man fall against Captain America?? Sorry but my man Thor is way stronger.

>>14230752
Traded durability for speed and ease of use.

It's fast to put on but can't take a beating that well.

>>14230759
Tony and Thor both fought at their best condition.

Tony fought Steve (and Bucky) with a heavily damaged suit in an enclosed space. No room to fly = you're getting bopped by Cap.

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>>14227945
>The thing about the fight between Bucky, Cap, and Stark is that I'm entirely sure even Stark knows what the hell he wants to do with Bucky.
>Stark, during that fight, is not in his right mind, and he's almost constantly alternating between trying to outright kill Bucky and merely brutalize him
Literally the only person in the thread that understands what's going on in that scene.

>>14232381

If you agree with him doesn't that mean he's not the only person to understand?

>>14233128
Damn it, did you really have to bump the thread to ask that?

>>14233159

Did you have to bump this thread to say that only one guy got it right? I've been reading this thread since yesterday and there only seems to be two people who disagree with that the idea that Tony was trying to beat the shit out of Barnes AND kill him. I actually thought I was going to see the end of an internet fight for a moment there.

fuck-you bump

>>14233205

I think we're done here. Tony tried to beat up Barnes AND kill him. Also -fuck-you-too-anon

>>14228400
What about recruiting a Kill Team of Super Villains?

>>14233216
Fuck me bump? <3

>>14233271
fuck me in the bump?

ha ha.

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>>14221897

Why doesn't Iron Man have as many weapons on his suit as War Machine?

Does it bother him that it messes up the clean silhouette?

>>14234344
Excess weight slows down his flight and means armor is thinner or has to be compensated for, further making it heavier.

All that energy to drive it all must also reduce the effectiveness of the repulsor system.

>>14221929
stark fought like a tard. it was possible for him to beat cap, but he blew it. he really should pay attention to hand to hand training. the first rule, to protect your centre line, stark didn't follow. he used his tools improperly and cap capitalized on it.

Bucky and Falcon buddycop film when?

>>14234344
>implying Stark needs weapons to be a badass.

Also I think Rhodes might be compensating for something with all those guns on his suit.

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Unpopular opinion
In my opinion Iron man can beat Cap, in the movie it was two vs one and Iron man could have killed him when he had him cuffed, when he used that red beam to block the hallway (instead of cutting cap in half with it) and after Ironman beat him down and had his repulsor ready he could have blasted and killed him but Tony wasn't trying to kill him. So in my opinion he lost because he held back and cap had help