Which has the better technological advancements, Macross or Gundam?

Votoms.

Gurren Lagann

Grendizer he's from space and shit

Kamen Rider.

Gargantia

>>14149602
Gunbuster

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>>14149602
Captain Earth

>100+ years into UC and Humanity is still stuck in the Solar System
>~50 years after the SDF-1 crashes humanity has produced and sent off several colony ships to spread humans across the galaxy

Gee anon I wonder

>>14149640
So Gundam? Sounds far more reasonable.

>>14149640
>no magic ancient alien technology
>aliens + magic ancient alien technology

>better technology advancement
Better in what ways?

>>14149602
Macross does a much better job of showing how technological advancements have affected everyday life. Most Gundam series tend to ignore almost everything that's not military tech or space colonies.

Macross:

zero - valkyries are just jet fighters transforming into robots

sdf - valkyries now fly in space, are commonly equipped with nukes, can't achieve orbital velocity on ther own, require capital ships for fold jumps

plus - valkyries can achieve orbital velocity and can make fold jumps using detachable fold booster, can be controlled by brain - machine interface

frontier - valkyries are equiped with inertia dampers, pilots wear ex gar that greatly enhances their survability in case of ejection

delta - build in fold drives for valks

>>14149602
Depends on how you see it. Macross is miles ahead, but the setting is like if the feds found the Turn A right before the OYW and reverse engineered everything from that.

>>14149694
>delta - build in fold drives for valks
I wonder where can the technology go after this. Full AI-controlled Valkyries? Some kind of self-repairing, nano-machine based armor?

>>14149728

Direct thought control for even normal pilots, perhaps.

Everyone gets a BDI with none of the side effects.

>>14149735
The side effects were just Guld being a Zent. The real control issue was having to be completely focused 100% at all times.

>>14149728
We already have ghost drones, since plus, thought they didn't transformed

Frontier introduced drones working as assistance for manned fighters, delta made such technology even more advanced, using drones as temporary detachable boosters for valkyrie

And lets not forget dimension distorting weapons introduced in frontier

>>14149737

To be honest, Guld's issues weren't even on my mind.

Just the concentration issues. A BDI improved to the point where pilot input consists of "I want to go there" and the onboard computer does all the interpretation work.

What do you mean "better"?

I think UC's tech is more thought out, but the Tech in Macross is clearly more advanced and capable than that of UC. The difference in power output alone is stupid.

Dunno how the Turn units would fare though.

>>14149645
>So Gundam? Sounds far more reasonable.

Not even close. In Gundam it takes 50 years to emigrate several billion people to the space colonies (according to the anime). Now with the infrastructure we see in the various series (no space elevator, only shuttles launching from a handful of spaceports around the earth) there is no way, no freaking way you can send billion of human beings into space. Even using 24 hours a day, 365 days a year continuous launches into space.

Lets say 4 000 000 000 people are to be sent uo, each launch taking 300 people into space (we never a space shuttle carrying more than that). That's over 13 milion launches. Lets' say one launch takes 1 hour, 24 launches per day per spaceport. 10 spaceports around the earth sounds reasonable ? That's 240 launches per day. Which means 72000 people launched into space per day. Do the division, 4 bilion / 72000 people per day makes around 150 years. So you cannot have 8 bilion people living in space colonies around UC 79 when colonisation started around UC 00.

SDF universe isn't really a fair comparison since they reverse-engineering all that overtech and fold drives. They also use nukes as a contingency.

>>14149765
>we never a space shuttle carrying more than that

We never really need to see that many people being launched.

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Gundam

>>14149765

> we never a space shuttle carrying more than that

Treating it like a plane flight with several hundred passengers and flights every few minutes from thousands of locations seems more reasonable frankly.

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>>14149745
>using drones as temporary detachable boosters for valkyrie
Using Ghosts as boosters was already done though.

>>14149602
> Macross v. Gundam tech thread #9486324232

>>14149748
While the full concentration can be kind of a issue, Guld showed that it works perfectly, they only shelved it because of that whole clusterfuck incident with the AI but as we saw in Frontier with the Galaxy crew they are using a improved version for the cyborgs and as we see now in Delta normal pilots can use a even better version of it

>>14149823
Yes, now compare the size of that thing to the one in Delta and the speed generated by each, they improved the tech

>>14149832
>now in Delta normal pilots can use a even better version of it
Air knights boyband use regular joystick and throttle

Macross definitely has more advanced tech than Gundam (especially UC) but I prefer Gundam's approach. It makes things feel a bit more grounded, and the very gradual advancements in technology are interesting to see because it can really depict behind-the-scenes arms races.

Plus, since every Gundam series is set around the inner Solar System (and sometimes Jupiter), it makes the real crazy tech feel that much more wondrous.

In Turn A Gundam when they were talking about interstellar travel, a weapon capable of combating an entire planet's military on its own, and destroying an entire Solar System-spanning civilisation with a single mech, it felt really wild, mysterious, and fascinating since that level of insane technology hadn't even nearly been approached in other series.

>>14149814
>Treating it like a plane flight with several hundred passengers and flights every few minutes from thousands of locations seems more reasonable frankly.

No it doesn't seam reasonable. We know from CCA, Victory and other series in the UC timeline that going into space from earth is not your "take a local flight from denver to seattle" thing. Spaceports are big installations, one is in Hong Kong, another in the US, another still in Europe (the one we see in Victory) and maybe a couple of others around the world. Hundreds there are not. Shuttles are small and you have to append huge engines to it (we see it in CCA). It takes time to schedule one flight. This ain't commercial aviation. So the underlying premise of Gundam is wrong. Maybe the authors should have shot for a more realistic number. Because an emigration of 8 bilion people over the course of 80 years (to be generous) is irrealistic. Of course if we invoke the magic fairy then anything is possible.

>>14149868
You sure that it was 8 billion emigrating to the sides?
Maybe it was like, 3 billion, and they just had a super high birth rate.

>>14149868
You're assuming that the "shuttles" you see in the series are one and the same they used for the migrations. Actually, you're assuming way too much with out any kind of information beyond the "50 years" and "8 billion" figures.

Macross by far holographic tech is commonplace even to civilians, rebreathers, EX gears, there is trans luminal communication between fleets, fold technology, spacetime distortion weapons, heck reaction weaponry uses antimatter. Macross setting is much more Star Trek future-ey

VF-31 vs Master Gundam, who wins?

>>14149765
They didnt use the passenger shuttles you see in cca for that anon
Think about how many ships and GMs the feddies were sending to space every day in the OYW
MS igloo shows they can launch at least 5 battleships in the time it takes to drop and retrieve a diver, all of this without a ramp in sight, and that's just from jaburo

>>14149602
What do you mean when you say "better"?
>More advanced
Macross takes that one by a landslide.
>More "realistic"
Neither, really. They're both very soft sci-fi universes, and the closest you'll get to actual realism is the occasional bit of meaningless technobabble about minovsky particles or overtechnology.

But I'm just going to assume you mean "which one has its technology more consistently and thoughtfully integrated into its world," because that's one of the more interesting metrics of sci-fi tech. As pointed out a couple times already (>>14149684>>14149889), Macross presents a much more holistic future where the effects of technological advancement are visible almost everywhere, as opposed to Gundam (which frequently ends up looking like a fairly ordinary modern setting outside of the mobile suits, beam weapons, and existence of space colonies). A space colony isn't going to look like an ordinary late-20th-century city that just happened to get transplanted into an O'Neill cylinder. Macross is far better at making its future actually feel like the future, and for that reason I prefer its technology over Gundam's.

>>14149832
>they only shelved it because of that whole clusterfuck incident with the AI
No. They shelved it because it required insane amount of focus.

>they are using a improved version for the cyborgs
Those are cyborgs for a reason, their abilities are not exactly achievable by a regular person unless they are Max Jenius.

>>14149937
>MS igloo shows they can launch at least 5 battleships in the time it takes to drop and retrieve a diver, all of this without a ramp in sight, and that's just from jaburo

Ms Igloo was made 30 years after Gundam 0079. You can retcon all the shit you want but that is not the point. The original Gundam series states that by the time of the OYW 8 billion people are living in space. How did they get there ? With what's shown on screen in 0079, Zeta, ZZ and Victory there is no possible way to justify that number.

>>14149911
Depends on whether or not you've got Master Asia in there.

Does Macross have super-compressed water balls?

>>14150123
They have space bicycles.

>>14150132

And super compressed people. And super compressed space.

>>14149728
>I wonder where can the technology go after this.
AI-Controlled Valkyrie Backup Dancer Squads

I bet the Sv-262 has a sword.

>>14149602
Macross has the severe technological edge but I'd put my money on any post-Zeta Gundam decisively beating any Macross mech.

>>14150244
Care to explain your reasoning?

>>14150244
You must not like having money.

>>14150244
See, I could understand that line of thinking in terms of Plus or 7 mecha, but the YF-24 family has full on fucking Technomagic with dimension-warping crystals built into the frame. Dimension-warping crystals that as shown in Frontier and Delta (and even Zero to a degree), allow for Newtype-style telepathy and UNDERSTANDING and shit.

All Macross tech, including in Zero, is based on reverse-engineered (or even just directly applied) xenotech. It's a whole other ball-game. That's why Macross vs Gundam discssions have always seemed so stupid to me. It's like comparing apples to skyscrapers.

>>14150265
Even discounting the dimension-warping, outright dimension-breaking, and UNDERSTANDING technology, there's still the fact that Frontier-era VFs have thrust-weight ratios in the 40-50 range. That's so far beyond anything Gundam has to offer that there's really no point in discussing it.

>>14150347
It's like Superman v Goku. Superman has done a lot of cool shit but Goku displays planet-destroying power by Freiza arc, let alone Buu or Super Saiyan God Mode Super Saiyan.

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>>14150357
Superman's honestly not much better. Really the only difference between them is that Goku's feats go upwards since he has an ongoing narrative while Supes has decades of episodic wildly random shit.

>>14150211
I hope they do. A pin-point barrier sword is the next step after the Messiah's knife.

>>14149648
Gundam has giant self sustaining colonies in space that hold millions of people each. They can move said large objects around the Earth and even from the Asteroid belt to Earth.

We know eventually in late UC that Jewdough and Roux modify a colony at Saturn into a space ship and leave the Sol system. Then in the Dark History period, all the remaining colonies convert them selves into generation ships and leave the Sol system.

>>14150417

> Gundam has giant self sustaining colonies in space that hold millions of people each.

Uh...so does Macross. And yes, each Island colony ship can hold millions of people. At least 5 million in comfort by a quick Google.

>>14150399

This is the dumbest shit ever. Can't be true.

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>>14150443
nigga you don't know about golden age superman

he sneezes and destroys entire planetary systems

good thing he instantly traveled to another universe before sneezing

>>14150427
also the macross ships are capable of FTL and normal spaceflight while gundam colonies need to have engines attached to them first

>>14150463

Didn't Grant Morrison write some stuff on that level in the last decade or so? All Star Superman isn't that bad, but the Thought Robot stuff is from what I've heard about it.

>>14150463
Silver. Golden Age was the 40s, back then he couldn't even fly.

>>14150417
I don't remember Roux being in Victory Gaiden, actually. He did have a brown loli, though. At least I think it's a loli, you know how Hasegawa draws girls.

>>14150347
Not to mention maneuverability, valks are just planes, so in atmospheric conditions they are order of magnitude more agile than boxy gundams.

>>14150399
what the fuck

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>>14150473
Yes.

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>>14150699

YFW Superamn was talking about You. The Reader

>>14150699
Wasn't there a Superman version that was fully aware of the existance of our world? Some sort of robot Superman i think.

>>14150481
>I don't remember Roux being in Victory Gaiden
Roux dumped Judau shortly after ZZ.

>>14150481
>>14150807
>Roux dumped Judau shortly after ZZ.
Keep in mind that this is a passing line in a Gundam/Ideon crossover, so make of that as you will. Also, old!Judau claimed in one of the Crossbone sequels that all of his friends are dead.

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>>14150735
Same comic

>>14149755
>Dunno how the Turn units would fare though.
VFs would outrun Moonlight Butterfly.

If Macross' tech is way more advance than Gundam, then why are they still using knives for CQC?

>>14150935

I'd say that the beam gun of any Macross Class ship or any fighter with a quantum reaction beam gun like the VF-27 or the YF-29 should be able to deal with the nanomachines since their guns work not by destroying the target but by destroying space in a straight line on a vector with the target. Which I don't see the Moonlight Butterfly as being able to deal with since it exists in that space and has nothing to "eat". That, or the dimension eater bombs that can be equipped to any variable fighter as far as I can tell.

>>14150048
You are deadset a retard

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>>14150975
Because melee is a huge afterthought. Also keep in mind those tiny knives are coated with pinpoint barrier energy so you pretty much have a force field that can cut through anything. The only time we ever really see knives being used in when they have to disable a target like in Delta or when they have no real weapons left. Kinda pointless anyway when PPB punches exist.

As much as I hate to admit it Macross has the advantage over gundam (at least what we know of the UC timeline excluding psychoframe units).
Although it's a rough comparisson because one civilization was given a headstart with technology.
I think macross has done better when it comes to showing how technology is intergrated into its world and through each series we see that change, however we never really get to see the different technological classes in their society too often and it comes off as if their world is perfect, which obviously isn't the case but we don't see much of this and really have to infer from what we get. But with gundam I feel that it being grounded in a grounded world helps.
On its military side I think the development of VFs is pretty well done and with each new in universe addition you can really tell that their technology has come a long way and is constantly evolving, gundam can be decent at this at times, but because it needs to sell kits some of the timelines become oversaturated. However I feel even gundam at times does a pretty good job with this as well with my favorite examples being 00,IBO,Late-UC, and seed
although the objective best for me in terms of tech development is most likely 00.
The reason I say that is mostly due to what we see in 00 s1, we see a setup similar to our world where we have multiple nations using similar tech and somewhat relying on each other for joint operations and research.
Then there was how the introducion of gn drives affected the battlefield and political sphere which is another favorite point of s1 for me. Also I like how Graham was handled, things like how his feat of midair transformation was something incredible and when we see the gn flag it's like it got rushed out in order to test some of his new tech once they got ahold of it

I also think that the made up physics in both franchises is done pretty well and excells at worldbuilding and expanding on that aspect.

Doesn't Gundam have better beam weaponry and shielding? Also, their specialization towards human augmentation and remote controlled weaponry is rather unmatched.

>>14156760
Macross matches or exceeds Gundam in all of those areas, though.
>beams
Beam weapons in Macross go past the typical "accelerated particle weapon" territory and into the realm of dimensional manipulation tech. It gets pretty nuts, especially with the larger Macross-class weaponry.
>shielding
Pinpoint barriers. Nothing else really needs to be said.
>human augmentation
Plenty of cyborg augmentation going on in places like the Galaxy fleet.
>remote controlled weaponry
Ghosts can do just about anything bits/funnels can do, but without needing a psychic operator and without requiring conscious attention all the time.

>>14156844
valkyries dont use superdimension beams, they use bullets
Cyborgs are nothing compared to cyber newtypes

>>14150879
What I still don't understand is why it was a robot.

>>14156933
certain models of VFs already have beam weapons

cyber newtypes are unstable

>>14156973

We don't even know how powerful standard VF beam weaponry are. Everyone in Macross would rather use missiles or gunpods.

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>>14157493
>Everyone in Macross would rather use missiles or gunpods
Those are proven weapons after all. Note that there are beam gunpods as well, VF-27 and VF/YF-29 has them.

They like to use rapid fire weapons like the gunpods, its good for adjusting your aim as you are trying to shoot the enemy down.
The non-rapid fire weapons, like the turret on the 29, could one-shot a Vajra. The 29's gunpod in its heavy beam mode one-shots Ghosts while the rapid fire mode takes more hits to destroy it.

>>14156933
VFs have been using beams ever since the VF-1, and start mounting superdimension beams in Frontier.

>>14156933

Gyunei was probably the only stable cyber newtype in the entire franchise, and nor only was he a singular achievement, he was pretty weak. There's no indication cyber newtypes can be made easily or that they can be made particularly strong even if they're made stable or easy. The entire Galaxy fleet was cyborgs.

Not to mention that song magic can do most anything space magic can. It even has naked space moments now.

Since its pretty meta thread, no particularly delta related let me ask you a question.

Why do valkyries use plane mode in space at all?

Batlroid seems to offer better defense (head mounted laser for incoming missiles) and offense (holding your weapon directly in hands). Maneuverability is not a case because mecha don't have to be aerodynamic in vacuum.

>>14158733
it's got the thrusters best configured for go fast

>>14157707
There was Gates Capa. Didn't do jack shit but he did exist.

>>14149883
Then where the hell did the more efficient form of transportation go?

>>14158750
He just fucked off didn't he?

>>14158828

I don't even remember him, but the Wiki says he suffered some kind if mental lapse when Rosamia died and that his mobile suit was destroyed, after which his fate is unknown. So maybe? It'd certainly be the smart thing to do if he survived.

>>14158733
Faster. Engine output is lowered in battroid mode.

>>14156933
>using cyber newtypes for an argument
c'mon man don't make such a rookie mistake,the strongest cannon newtypes are the purebred ones who evolve due to war/stressful situations and maturity. (Judau,Kamille,Uso,Tobias,Lalah,Char and possibly Bellri)

>>14159196

Why would you put Char on a list of the strongest newtypes and not Amuro? Especially one mentioning maturity? Bellri was a newtype (he had a newtype reaction to Rockpie's death), but I wouldn't call him a strong one either.

>>14159222
Because due to Unicorn's tomfoolery Char was confirmed as having such a strong presence he came back from death as a ghost and semi possessed Full Frontal's Body.

I was gonna put Amuro but I've forgotten how strong he was,I know he was pretty good on the battlefield when anticipating stuff and fighting outside an MS but I'm not to sure if he could pull off the shit like Judau did with his projection. I mean yes there was the axis shock but that was more of the psychoframe amplifying his will

In OP's pic, Gundam wins by a landslide. The ONLY advantage the VF-1 has is speed. That's offset by the Gundam being bulletproof and its pilot being fucking psychic.

>>14159275

> confirmed

Unicorn's anime doesn't confirm anything regarding Frontal's origin, assuming you want to ignore the novel explanation.

Also, Unicorn never implies that it's due to Char's strength as a newtype. It's never implied it has anything to do with newtype strength full stop. Or even that it's voluntary? It's kind of hard to see how it would be, given that Char's spirit is the one that finally takes Full Frontal's spirit and says its time to let it go in a wistful manner as he does so, like he disagrees with Frontal and has with a while.

Also, if you're going to put Lalah on that list, and her most impressive feats are all done after she dies, then you should put Marida on that list too. Marida, who is a definite cyber newtype as well as a clone, and who managed to speak to Banagher, Mineva, Zinnerman and be seen and heard by an entire bridge after dying. Again, it's never implied to be any kind of indication of newtype strength. Just the opposite, Marida talks about how you can achieve see more from where she is and that humans might come there in their physical bodies some day, implying that strength has little if anything to do with it, and that she's simply doing something anyone who reaches there can.

>>14159330
>Valkyries
>not bulletproof
>Max Jenius
>not better than some "psychic powers" nonsense

>>14158785
Again, you're assuming things. To build colonies you would need lots of resources, right? A logical assumption would be that the ships were dismantled and recicled for the colonies. But the real answer is: we don't fucking know, and we don't any way of knowing anything about it until someone decides to tell that story.

>>14159330

> only

You forgot maneuverability. And power (a VF-1 has two 650 MW engines to the Gundam's single 1,380 kW one). And it's transformation capability, which is faster, more versatile and doesn't need any extra vehicles compared to the Gundam's core fighter. And it's ability to fly. I might be forgetting other advantages.

The Gundam definitely has that VF-1, but speed is hardly it's only advantage.

Don't know about you guys, but Macross undoubtedly has the better QoL for the average everyday person.

>>14149616
i agree with this
the human alliance seemed to have some pretty sweet tech

>>14149868
>irrealistic

u srs dood

>>14159602

Well, unless you happened to be a human living on Earth in 2012 I guess. Gundam wiped out half of humanity, Macross wiped out 99.9999something%. Outside that one instance, Macrossverse seems to be a pretty chill place to live.

>>14157648
MDE (miniature dimension eater) weaponry exists for missiles and bullets tho.

>>14159647

They haven't unchilled since they launched the first Macross emigration fleet.

In-between Victory and Delta, the social state of the population in Delta is undoubtedly more connected and in the know than people in the era of Victory. Even if travel between planets is expensive for middle-income people, you could still get another world in your own room with holotechnology.

Meanwhile in Victory I'm liable to be run over by a fuckhuge two-wheeled monstrosity in my own smallish potato field without having heard of the name of "Zanscare".

>>14159196
We were talking about enhanced humans and I rightfully said that the blond fuccboi who can punch tigers is nothing compared to mashymyre who destroyed 10 Qubeleys with his mind

>>14149602
SAMFLAM

>>14159330
>That's offset by the Gundam being bulletproof

It can be argued that the Gundam's armor will protect it against a SW1 era Gundpod (even though its a flimsy argument that just assumes that Macross super space armor is dramatically less effective than Gundam's super space armor for the sake of giving the Gundam an advantage) but that isn't the only possible weapon for a VF1 to be equipped with. Just the most common.

If the VF1 has a Strike pack then it is carrying an electron beam weapon mounted on its back, and depending on the mission the VF can be equipped with anti capital ship missiles capable of bringing down a ship four times the size of the White Base, or in a pinch actual goddamn nukes.

>>14159330

Is the Gundam equipped with a capable targeting system or did they ditch development for that tech due to Minovsky particle jamming?

>>14161074
>the blond fuccboi who can punch tigers is nothing compared to mashymyre who destroyed 10 Qubeleys with his mind
And how many newtypes that are able to do what he did are there?

>>14161506

Mobile Suits don't have any targeting systems to speak of because minovsky tech fucks with anything and everything that lets technology see beyond 10 feet in front of you and no one ever bothered to research a way around that.

Its why the only people who can reliably land shots in Gundam are invariably Jedi that aim using the force.

>>14161506
>>14161539
Can someone explain to me why Gundams can't use optical-based tracking systems? Surely they have computers powerful enough to do that sort of thing.

Or even infared signals?

>>14162135

Because using anything minvosky related used to just eat radio waves for breakfast and make radar worthless, but in order to maintain the status quo it was eventually retconned into fucking with anything related to the electromagnetic spectrum in various ways.

If you tried to use optical targeting on something that was in a dense cloud of minovsky, you would get a really blurry picture and the image of what you were looking at would be displaced by a totally random amount in a totally random direction that could be a few meters off or could be several dozen miles off. No one has any idea what the pattern to it is, and the effect gets exponentially worse the farther you are away from them. So until they are close enough to roll down the window and spit down your gun barrel, there is absolutely positively no exceptions no source of information you have on the target that can be used to determine their position in space other than literal psychic powers. The only thing you can be certain of is that where the sensors think the enemy is is the one place they are certainly not.

So until they are close enough to melee, you are just shooting at ghosts and missing wildly because where you see them isn't where they actually are.

>>14162150
Is it ever mentioned whether sonar is affected by minovsky interference? Because it seems reasonable to assume that it wouldn't obstruct detection methods that don't rely on electromagnetic radiation.

Minovsky interference doesn't make ANY sense because you can just compensate for density, use remote markers to adjust or even just figure out the displacement by using trial and error firing. Also, line of sight combat was a thing until the 20th century.

Fuck any dumbass who thinks that shit is logical. This shit is more magical than getter rays.

>>14162150
But that makes no sense. If that was the case, the cockpits should just display a fucking blank screen all the time.

Minovsky is the ultimate hand wavium.
>makes giant ships fly within gravity
>nonsensically makes long range combat useless
>magic particle for psychic teenagers that allows them to power their robots with souls
>somehow makes really powerful perfect nuclear reactors
>particles that form a literal cube that can lift stuff and create beam sabers
>literally used as ammo for guns
>makes psychic controlled drones
>pushes back asteroids

>>14162169

They didn't set their realistic giant robot infantry war in space so they could NOT show stars in the background.

Also what >>14162163 said. Nothing about this really makes any sense, its just using big words to cover up a plot hole and justify the plot being what it is.

Think of it like Superman's powers. Nothing about them is even remotely sensical in any way, and they frequently get new rules stapled unto them or removed over time for the sake of the plot convenience of the moment. You either accept or don't that an alien that is in all ways a human evolved on another planet where the only thing keeping them from being gods is that all of their most important and powerful evolutionary traits, traits which make them more powerful than 99% of all other life in the multiverse, happened to develop to only work in an environment other than the one they evolved in.

You don't win points by pointing out that superman's flight makes no sense. Everyone knows its stupid. Its just that no one really cares.

>>14162190
Problem with minovsky is that there are plenty of fools on this board who will argue that it's perfectly logical and could actually fit into real physics (teh formula!!11)

>>14162203

Well, that's dumb and they are wrong. Just ignore them the same way you ignore flat earth theorists or people who believe in chem trails.