Is it even possible to tell an effective anti-war story in a

>>14053804

I don't really think it's a matter of things going over peoples' heads as much as it is Japan staying out of war for so long that they have no real idea how to actually tell a decent anti-war tale.

>>14053804
Gundam's anti war message is a joke.

>>14053804
it's easy unless you're some sort of tismo fuckhead who can't handle more than one idea at a time

>>14053804
Yeah

>>14053829
Why

Don't make the mistake of not showing how devastating war can be.

Just showing the large scale devastation is like half of the whole anti-war thing.
Its not just the deaths, but the destruction of cities and whatnot.
We can see grunts die in waves, but we feel nothing. Who are they? What kind of people are they? How's their family? We know nothing about them.
How do we give a shit about people who we don't care about?

For instance, Macross Frontier, for all the shit it does, it showed the devastation visually as the show slowly gets to the end. They purge islands to kill the aliens, Island-1 was heavily rekt, all the beautiful buildings and whatnot that we were shown in the earlier part of the show were all fucked hard, the atmosphere of the show dipped down into a more depressing atmosphere.

>>14053804
>thinking giant robots are cool means you can't think war is bad
I swear people who post this image are dumber than the people they're making fun of
(and First Gundam is a bit more complex than simply 'War is bad', which is itself not a particularly deep, interesting or relevant message)

>>14053880
I didn't think that was the what the image is saying. For example there are people who think that 00 S1 was about CB trying to stop war by killing everyone rather than them attempting to force the world leaders to work together against a common foe. I actually read that in the comment section on YouTube video. Most people who watch Mecha don't really pay attention to the plot in itself which is why shows like wing,IBO, and 00 are more well received than shows like 0079,Zeta, and turn A.

>>14053880
The problem is that people can watch it and find war exciting instead of horrible.

Before you say that'she bullshit, as a former marine I can say that a lot of jarheads LOVE movies like Apocalypse Now. They don't see it as the horrors and inhumanity of war, they see it as the glory of superior US firepower and formation.

>>14053804

Yes. It has been done successfully multiple times by shows that don't have Gundam in the name.

As an example of making the cool fights not overshadow the cost, look at Evangelion. The fights are all cool looking, but only an idiot would ever want Shinji's job. Piloting the Eva is fucking brutal and terrible and no one but Asuka ever pretends otherwise.
Its cool to watch, but they don't glorify it to the viewer.

As an example of making the need for cool toys not overshadow the message, look at Macross. The VFs are fucking cool and make for amazing models, but in Macross a military victory almost never is what actually solves their problems. Macross shows that military defense is important for not losing the war against a dangerous opponent, but its cultural victory or understanding that actually ends the war. Minmay breaks the morale of the Zentradi by making them question their need to fight, Basara solves the resource problem that was the cause of the Protodevlin aggression against humans, Alto/Ranka/Sheryl successfully stop the conspiracy that pushed mankind into conflict with the Vajra for selfish ends, etc.
At no point in Macross is the answer to a war "and then we killed everything who disagreed with us and everything was okay after that! WE SO STRONK"

>>14053921

But jarheads became jarheads in the first place because they're mindlessly patriotic meatheads, so that makes sense.

>>14053936
No its more that to military people, there's no such thing as an anti-war movie like that one guy said.

I think the problem with a lot....well, at this point all anime directors, is that none of these people have ever seen war themselves. It's very difficult to accurately portray war when it's something you're safe from. This is why Tezuka and Mizuki understood war, they both participated in WW2. And day what you want about the actual films of Oliver Stone, but the dude volunteered for the army during the middle of Vietnam and fought in it bravely. He knows what he's talking about in that subject.

I guess my point is that showing the horrors of war is only a guess as to what it's like if you never experienced it. Write what you actually know and all.

>>14053969
Oh and before someone brings up Tomino, he was 3 when the war ended. Your brain doesn't even recall most shit from that early in life.

>what is Votoms

>>14053978
But Tomino, like Takahashi, grew up in post-war Japan, which was a shithole of its own.

>>14054022
The focus is on Chirico; the actual war between Gilgamesh and Balarant is pretty much never elaborated on. It's been years and we still know nearly nothing about the Balarant except that they exist.

>>14054037
>The focus is on Chirico
and how war did terrible things on him and his life.

>>14054022
A show where the war ended already and is only on Chirico's back story.

>>14054031
A shithole yes, but it sure as hell is a better experience than still having the bombs dropped on you.

Besides, my statement was more of "how can you understand a soldier if you never were one or worked alongside them?" Because from what I've seen, no director that hadn't had to pick up a gun actually knows what it's like.

>>14053901
I didn't think 00 had a terrible plot.

>>14054045
>A show where the war ended already
There is still war. Unless the not-so-subtle-Vietnam-like-war during the Kummen arc doesn't count.

>>14054053
Pretty sure the first thing the show says is the war between the empires ended.

Kunmen was the SS's playground

>>14053804
personally I'd love it if they actually did a series with a "Pro-War" message someday

>>14054055
>Pretty sure the first thing the show says is the war between the empires ended.
Yes, the previous war Chirico fought. That doesn't mean or imply he did nor see another war.
Otherwise how would you define what happens during Kummen arc? It is clearly a civil war.

>>14054062

Kunmen was an artifically engineered war by the Secret Society to draw out Fyana and Chirico.

>>14053978
He grew up in the bombed out ruins of post-War Japan. They had already been absolutely fucked when they surrendered. The majority of their cities had already been bombed to shit before they were even nuked. Families had been dislocated and separated by the bombings, the expulsions from their former territories and food issues as well as large segments of the male population been taken as POWs some of whom would take decades or never to return. Shit was just as fucked up AFTER the War and the rebuilding of urban Japan took well over a decade to accomplish. His generation didn't have to see the war to see how bad it was seeing how they grew up in the ruined aftermath with people dead or missing and the country occupied by Americans.

>>14054066
>Kunmen was an artifically engineered war
... still a war.

>>14053925
>Piloting the Eva is fucking brutal and terrible and no one but Asuka ever pretends otherwise.
Its cool to watch, but they don't glorify it to the viewer.
That's bullshit. Shinji gets 3 hot chicks, lives with them, and becomes God.
>bb-b-b-b-b-but in one episode he was HURT
Not everyone is a fucking pussy.

>>14054057
Dougram can be interpreted as having a pro-war message, in the sense that "there are causes worth fighting, worth dying for." The revolution is a worthy cause, as well as Denon's actual intentions towards Deloyer. Even then, it doesn't glorify warfare or anything like that - it might be a necessary evil, but it is one that sucks for everyone involved, especially the civilians.

>>14054057
SEED Destiny is what you want. MCs nation destroys the military strength of the two other superpowers, and then establishes its own defacto leadership consisting of the soldiers who are the MCs. This is portrayed as heroic.

>>14054057
Oh, God, one of those shows just ended yesterday.

>>14053877
Unicorn came close with the Shamblo scene, but they fucked it up by softballing Loni at the audience and retconning the collateral damage later on.

>>14053877
SDF Macross had the best idea, show the post-war scenario and the reconstruction effort.

>>14054072
That still doesn't change my point that he doesn't know what it means to be a soldier.

And for your information, he grew up in Odawara, one of the least damaged cities in the country. The worst it got was an internment camp for war criminals by the occupation forces postwar.

>>14054092
And /m/ hates the epilogue arc, showing that it doesn't fucking know what it wants.

Any anti-war anime that actually shows war has failed.

People who fetishize war know it's full of death and injustice. They love the chaos of the battlefield. Gundam constantly shows you how much of a badass you can be in giant robot while preaching that war is bad. It's not effective. In fact, it's the opposite. It encourages people to become soldiers.

>>14054077

Shinji gets no hot chicks you ignorant manchild, the closest thing Shinji has to a romance is Asuka and she hates his guts for making her feel inferior.

> in one episode he was hurt

Try pretty much every fight. In his first battle he gets both arms broken and gets stabbed through the skull, in the second he gets burned hands and stabbed twice in the stomach, and in the third he get set on fire and the pain is so intense it stops his heart. Most people who experience just one of those injuries are either dead or crippled for the rest of their lives, but Shinji goes back for seconds.

>>14054099
I doubt that, the few times we actually discuss SDF and it's NOT about how much better it was than the recent ones most people say they like it except for the Kaifun parts.
Personally I loved it even after reading it was supposed to end at ep.27, because showing how hard to recover from a war even if it was a bit sugar-coated is always a decent idea in war shows.

Mecha anime need an injection of neorealism instead of stupid nationalism that brings us nowhere.

>>14054110
I know people that joined the AF because of Robotech.

>>14054110
So FLAG succeeded?

>>14054111
Here's the catch: everything that sucks about Shinji's life IS ENTIRELY HIS FAULT

Whenever something goes wrong, it's because Shinji isn't doing what he needs to do. Because Shinji is being a little pussy again. Running away from danger is the worst thing you can do in life or death situations. Shinji gets hurt because he whines.

He lives with 3 chicks that want his dick. Never happens. Why? Because Shinji fucks it up by being insecure.

He pilots the most powerful robot on Earth. He gets hurt. Why? Because Shinji hesitates and doesn't work in tandem with his teammates.

His father tries to put Shinji in the most safest position in the world by letting him pilot Eva. But oh no! Shinji's father is bad at showing emotions even though his actions make it clear. Shinji is a little bitch and just whines (wahhh! I had to live with RELATIVESSSSS)

And you're overestimating Shinji's suffering. There are 26 episodes, and things only go badly for Shinji in a few of those episodes. And it is always because he fucked up.

Fuck you and your little teenage insert.

>>14054096
You don't need to be a soldier to know how fucked up war is. To say something like that is incredibly ignorant and disregards the experience of civilians and war photographers/journalists.

And even if you weren't there during that time, all you need to understand the nature of war, is a desire to go out and find it out yourself. Research, interviews, etc.

>>14054134
>thinks the point of NGE is that Shinji should man up

You managed to not understand fucking Evangelion, babby's first anime.
Congratulations, Eva is literally 2 deep 4 u.

>>14054150
>you don't understand it!!11

No, it's you. The entire point of Evangelion is that people need each other and you can't just shut yourself away. Like Shinji does.

>>14054134
I didn't know that Shinji killed his mom and caused the Angel's to attack Earf, with each attack threatening the life of every being on it.
I didn't know that it's his fault that the angels are terrifying godless abominations that would make a grown man shit their pants, and have enough firepower to solo the armies of multiple nations if given the chance.
You're an idiot.

>>14054134
You know what would have happened if Shinji followed the plan like the good fuccboi you suggest he should be?
SEELE plan works, Third Impact happens, everyone turns to tang.

Since he actually questioned his choices and reasons, he managed to partially unfuck Third Impact as seen in EoE.
Basically you're saying he should have played straight into his dad's masterplan.
You're fucking retarded.

>>14054161
>You know what would have happened if Shinji followed the plan

The same exact thing that happened. Gendo tricks SEELE, and starts third impact via Rei. The only difference is that Asuka wouldn't have gotten tore up like an onnahole.

Nice one, dumbass!

>>14054145

No, YOU don't know. I picked up a gun, I bled in the name of my country. No one back home fucking cared, because we had the audacity to not win. Treated me like shit, not wanting to hire me because "he might have the PTSD and freak out". They don't know what a soldier goes through until they're in the line of fire themselves, and they don't care. Well fuck em, by the end I wasn't fighting to protect shitheads like that anyway, it was for the sake of the people you fight alongside.

A journalist may have an escort, but at least they have the balls to get in the trenches and see what we see firsthand. A civilian won't.

>>14054170
Except Rei cucked Gendo with Shinji because of how he behaved during the series and thus partially saved the world from being all turned to tang.
But please continue to spam how NGE would be so much better if Shinji was a manly pilot with sideburns.

>>14054186
>muh hatred of home
No one forced you to sign on the dotted line. You wanted to make money by killing people legally. You got it, so don't come crying back now. You can't even say that you made your country safer, dipshit.

>>14054186
Because there are no civilians in the sandbox. Got it.

The real vets on /k/ would tear your ass apart.

>>14054201
>/k/
>veterans
You mean the faggots who paint their anime waifus on their .9mm and jack off to pictures of military hardware? Oh yeah, we're all shitting our pants in fear.

>>14054186
You only have yourself to blame.

>>14054211
You're the one literally crying about not getting his cock sucked for "bleeding in the name of my country."

Fucking pogue.

>>14054186
If you want to make a commentary on war you cannot simply deny the perspective of civilians caught within the battles and wars.
Honestly you speak like a veteran-wanabee.
Have you been watching too many Vietnam films lately?

>>14054221
The kind of moron that masturbates angrily to Hamburger Hill, especially the scene where the one guy bitches to his unit about being NTRd by a hippie back home.

>>14054201
I hate to break it to you, but pretty much nobody on /k/ have even been in a fight.

>>14053804

No. Something like that is better left to a more fitting and actually good medium.

>>14054215
>>14054221
>>14054199
>no one forced you to sign the dotted line

Actually they did, my country had forced conscription until 2011.

>>14054220
You're such a retard you don't even know who the fuck you're replying to.

>>14054195
>if Shinji was a manly pilot with sideburns.

So you reveal your power level. Hi, newfaggot. I guess the only message you got from Evangelion is "It's okay to be a useless piece of shit who mentally breaks because his father doesn't love him".

You think Shinji's life was bad? It doesn't even compare what people in the late 19th and early 20th century went through. And you know what? Those people didn't survive by hiding in their room. They pushed forward, no matter how bad things seemed. You think it's more realistic that everyone be absolutely pathetic, but that's just a fantasy. The reality is that you either push back or you die. In fact, that's what every character in Evangelion tried to tell Shinji and the viewer. You never got it.

What you guys don't understand that being in a country that LOST the war means that, even as a civilian, you get a lot of repercussion even without having to withstand the bombs.
Roma Città Aperta and Ladri di Biciclette were pretty much on-point in their depiction of poverty and misery in after-war Italy, and Rossellini and De Sica were pretty well off guys even after the war ended, but they still managed to portray the effect of war in a great way.

Again, you don't have to get the A-bomb dropped on you like Barefoot Gen author to experience what living in a post-war country is, the food scarcity, the lack of infrastructure due to government turmoil, the lack of jobs.
Americans usually have a very hard time understanding that because the last war they lost on their soil was 150 years ago.

>>14054226
And you have the unit records to prove this?

It still hasn't been explained how the experiences of the civilians who live there aren't valid and how they don't know jack shit about war despite getting IED'd on the way to the market regardless of whether US soldiers are around or not. Absolutely reeks of an 'I saw less action than even the greenest 11bangbang tripfag on /k/' fobbit who wants his military discount.

>>14054237
>the last war they lost on their soil was 150 years ago.
You mean the last war some back-asswards traitors that lived on American soil lost?

>>14054242
>huuur you have to go through every military record in the world and prove that I WASN'T in the military
Fuck you, how about you show us YOUR documents? You made the claim, the burden of proof is on you. And it's not like being in the military is something to brag about. Any retard can get in.

My occam's razor says since most of 4chan is a bunch of bed-wetting manchildren, it is more likely that /k/ is also a bunch of bed-wetting manchildren.

>>14054253
And they're still butthurt about it. Losing a war on home soil fucks a people hard, but America as a whole hasn't gone through that ever.

>>14054257
Are you joking? A good 50% of the country still flies their loser flag and probably cry themselves to sleep singing I Wish I Was In Dixie

>>14054256
>most

Gross underestimate there

>>14054265
Exactly, a good 50% of the country, not 100% of it.

Japan was defeated in its entirety, occupied by a foreign army, and forced to accept laws drafted by the occupiers. America, due to a myriad reasons, has never had to experience anything close to it.

>>14054256
/k/ has the highest concentration of actual vets but yeah, most of the board are retarded slavaboos and AR-15 furfags and noguns.

>>14054256
I'm not even from /k/, retard. I'm calling you out on discounting them because 'muh occams razor lel'. Why don't you go ask them yourself? They're all probably itching to tell you about it.

>>14054270
>underestimate
Yeah, I was being generous. More like 99%.

>>14054288
You're still off by +1 percent senpai

>>14054287
Why would I want to? I don't give a shit what a bunch of lying dorks think they can prove to me. It won't change my opinion of them at the end of the day. They're all still a bunch of dumb, gun-toting, trigger-happy dipshits regardless of whether or not they've seen combat.

>>14054301
So now you've changed your tune from 'civilians don't know shit' to 'all soldiers are retarded but me'.

Sounds like we were right all along about you. Run off and angst somewhere else.

>>14054237
>>14054276
>You damned Americans just don't understand the suffering of the poor Japanese!

Go suck their rice grain sized cocks somewhere else, you fucking weeaboo cuck.

>>14054315
Shouldn't you actually be proud that America is effectively invulnerable to conventional warfare?

>>14054199
>You can't even say that you made your country safer, dipshit.
B T F O
T
F
O

>>14054315
Still mad about Pearl Harbor, kid?

>>14053921
>>14053941

So the marine is basically full of Yazans?

Looking at this thread, it seems like it's impossible to tell an anti-war story at all. Even looking at historical wars (and people's depictions of those wars), people come away with completely different interpretations. As far as I can tell, the best you can do is take pictures, record metadata (time of recording, location, etc.), don't add commentary or captions, and let the viewers decide for themselves.
Robits be robits, don't need to take it much further r than that.

>>14054307
Once again, your dumbass can't follow conversations and mixed up 2 (or 3 ) different people

>>14054265
>a good 50%

It's more like 35% in terms of population

>>14054386
That is what the military and police look for, yes.

>>14054134
>Gets hurt due to not being in tandem
Shinji didn't have any support with the first few battles, and having a good link makes you vulnerable to damage more, see EoE Asuka

>>14053829
I feel that people don't give enough credit to 0079, which is funny since people suck 0079 off all the time. It's a lot more complex than 'war is bad'. It's more like 'war is bad, but sometimes necessary'
Do you really want to live under the Zabis? Under Gihren? Someone had to get rid of them.
The 'war is bad' message has a little more to it than just 'people die' too. I'd like to bring up the relationship between Amuro and his mother. There's a great scene where Amuro panics and shoots a fleeing Zeon soldier, which his mother doesn't approve of. It's great, because it highlights the contrast between the lives of civilians and soldiers. Amuros mother cannot connect with or understand Amuro anymore because of all the shit that he's seen. Not only does war damage people physically, it damages their ability to connect with other people too.

>>14054134
You're expecting a lot from a 14 year old boy.
People really don't give Shinji enough credit.

>>14053804

War in the Pocket did it very well indeed.

>>14054120
Kaifun ruins the first part of the show but he's great in the post-war arc. Just a pathetic bitter alcoholic who beats the shit out of Minmay? He went from a straw-man to an actual character.

>>14055104
Which is one of the reasons why 0079 is so good for me; all the other entries in the Gundam franchise aside from 0080 just hamfist it.

>>14053804
Seed
The fights are so terrible it makes people not want to see robots fighting

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>War is bad
That's just the message the writers present on the surface.
The truth is, most modern writers of anime, mecha or otherwise in Japan have no first hand connection to war or the tragedies it can bring. War to them is a concept of fantasy, a high tension setting ideal for building on character drama. When it comes down to it, the writers aren't attempting to push any political beliefs, but use politics or violence as story elements.
There are a few exceptions, but most of the time a hero who is fighting to stop war is chosen to create a relatable point of view for the viewer, someone who appreciates and has grown up in a time of peace and wants to avoid unnecessary conflict.

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>>14055119
>You're expecting a lot from a 14 year old boy.

Your standards are fucking low. Not everyone is a worthless human being as a child.

>Left without family and without a home, Momčilo went to find the 6th Artillery Division of the Serbian army, which was near Gučevo at the time.[4] Major Stevan Tucović, brother of Dimitrije Tucović, accepted Gavrić into his unit after hearing about what had happened, and assigned Miloš Mišović, a soldier in the unit, to be Gavrić's caretaker.[3][4] The same evening, he took revenge by showing his unit the location of the Austro-Hungarian soldiers, and participated in the bombardment, as told by his son Branislav Gavrić in an interview.[2]

>At the age of 8, after the Battle of Cer, he was promoted to the rank of kaplar (Corporal) by the commander of his unit, and given a military uniform.[6]

>When his unit was sent to Thessaloniki, Major Tucović sent him to Sorovits where he hastily went through the equivalent of four grades of elementary education.[4]

>In Kajmakčalan, vojvoda Mišić was stunned when he saw a uniformed ten-year-old boy in the trenches. Major Tucović explained the situation to him; that Gavrić had been with them since the Battle of Cer, and that he had both been taught discipline and been wounded during his time in the unit.[2] Mišić promoted Gavrić to podnarednik (Lance Sergeant), and the order was read out to the whole division.

Make the protagonist and or their machine out to be some kind of demon of the battlefield.

Make people uncomfortable with the raw force of combat. Make them go "this is wrong."

Progress the protag to the point they are beginning to curbstomp the opposition.

Really just ham up a theme: "when fighting monsters, remember who the real monster is."

>thread about war in a specific media
>YA KNOW WHY THEY SUCK?
>CUZ THEY HAVEN'T FOUGHT WAR! LIKE I DID!
>YA'LL SUCK CUZ YA CIVIES AIN'T FOUGHT NO WARS
>TOMINO SUCK, YOU SUCK, /K/ SUCK, 4CHAN SUCK, I DONT, CUZ I FOUGHT A WAR!
>btw I ain't bragging any retard can get in

had a chuckle/10

>>14055401
are you talking about IBO because I actually skipped/ignored most of everything to see the COOL ROBOTS

>>14055450
Not really but I do think IBO grazed the idea for a bit during Edmonton.

It failed to really live up to it, but it channeled some notes.

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>>14055104
>Do you really want to live under the Zabis? Under Gihren? Someone had to get rid of them.

Eh let's be honest how effective do you think any of the zabis would have been long time.

It would have only been a matter of years before Haman murdered his ass and took over although now I guess where stuck under Haman's rule

which I guess is BETTER but not optimal

>>14055378
not him but that's 1 kid out of billions. Also different world.

>>14055478
There were plenty of children who went through far, far than Shinji ever did and while some broke others rose above.

Tomino was right when he said Evangelion teaches that everyone is in the middle of a nervous breakdown and gives a message that is everyone is pathetic. That's just Anno view of the world because he was one of those pathetic people.

>>14055104
>Do you really want to live under the Zabis? Under Gihren?
Hell yeah.

>>14055378
Shinji rose to the occasion though, every single time. Sure he often WANTED to quit, and often almost did. But he still got back into the Eva every time. Shinji is manly because he did it all in spite of his fears. Sure you could say that his potential relationships with Asuka or whatever were ruined due to his insecurity, but that's normal for a 14 year old boy. Even in EoE, he still rejected Instrumentality. Shinji got the job done.

It's about characters and consequences.

In War in the Pocket, we know both sides. When robots start fighting, someone you care about is going to die. The viewer goes through the same thing Al does. At the end we'd rather have Bernie be the big brother Al needs than see a cool Zaku/Gundam fight.

Contrast this with IBO. Everyone watching lusts for orphan death because they don't give a shit about the one note characters. We never get to see it though because while Okada harps on and on about war being bad we never actually see any consequences.

>>14055563
>Contrast this with IBO. Everyone watching lusts for orphan death because they don't give a shit about the one note characters. We never get to see it though because while Okada harps on and on about war being bad we never actually see any consequences.

The arc with the pirates was pretty decent. Seeing kids get slaughtered and turn their guns on the good guys who let their guards down was pretty fucked up

>>14054253
You're over generalizing things.

Yes, go read Full Metal Daemon Muramasa. One of the central themes is war is hell and the concept of a "just war" is self-justification.

The other theme is that, while killing people who commit evil, horrible acts doesn't make you as bad, but you're still committing a sin.

>>14055605
No, he's not. Vae victis, the reason why we were justified in the American Revolution but the south wasn't in the Civil War is because we won.

>>14055635
That's fine, but irrelevant to either of our posts.

Although it's going to be a dubious, debatable anti-war message no matter what...to an extent I do believe it is possible. The original MSG I think was effectively anti-war while not being preachy or contradictory about it, and then there's series' like 0080 or 08th MS Team that as far as Gundam goes at least, have been even more effective since they focus more on regular people during a big war.

I think the sweet spot is showing that the war is horrible, but there's at least some justification with the protagonists' fighting. In Amuro's case, he had no control over the war happening it just happened. All he could do was fight for his life or quit...in which case the war would happen anyways.

I think maybe another major factor is just how the action or battles themselves are done. Things can look flashy...but dirty at the same time (take recent Thunderbolt as an example), whereas if a series is trying to tell you war is bad all the time/combat is never justified but at the same time bombards you with imagery of glorifying and flashy machines then it's going a little too far.

>>14055646
How is it irrelevant? The whole point of vae victis is that you can call them ass-backwards traitors. They don't like it? Well tough shit cowboy, they shouldn't have lost.

>>14055683

because we live in an era of wide spread information sharing and access and people will know when you're bullshitting.

>>14055683
Spinning information is different from complete utter revisionism.

>>14055691
It has nothing to do with truth or billshit. The phrase literally means "woe to the conquered", thus the loser is at the winner's mercy

>>14055704
>revisionism
>a part of the country turns against the central government and even take up arms
>a civil war is fought
>they lose and their rebellion is quashed with them forcefully being reassimilated into the nation
>they weren't traitors

The makes a traitor different from a patriot is a traitor loses

>>14053804
Maybe you could make the mecha become rescue craft, and leave the instruments of war as mundane planes, tanks and ships?

>>14055559
>Shinji rose to the occasion though, every single time
Except for that time he literally left Asuka to die horribly because he was too pathetic to get in the fucking robot. And again, every time he was hurt was due to his own hesitation.

>>14055757
The robot was covered in dried goop, stopping him from being able to get in to help Asuka.

>>14055757
>Except for that time he literally left Asuka to die horribly

Hey she was doing fine up until Shinji turns out literally couldn't get into the robot.

>>14055793

It's bakelite actually. A fast-hardening plastic that starts in liquid form.

>>14054134
I haven't seen projection this intense since I finished reading F/SN.

>>14055757
Why do you fucking autistic Asukafags CONSTANTLY completely fucking rewrite Eva in your head to make her a perfect godess and everybody else a useless shit? You are the worst cancer.

Come to think of it, Asukafags and Zeonfags both do this and seem to have a lot of overlap. Does the color red just attract retards with poor comprehension ability?

>>14054235
So many words and yet not a single approaching an actual counterpoint.


Put your trip back on, Black_Knight.

>>14055401

That's kind of what I think they were trying to go with Seed Destiny. The problem is since almost everyone on this board hates the concept of Orb as mary sue Japan expy they cheer for Shinn murdering the shit of out them.

>>14055793

To be fair if he wasn't moping and waiting to die early on forcing Misato to go find him, rescue him from the soldiers and drag him to the robot and actually responded to her call from the start then Misato wouldn't have had to leave the command center and Shinji would have been out there from the start.

File: pero pero manko.png (183KB, 264x287px) Image search: [Google]

183KB, 264x287px

>>14055525
>Tomino was right when he said Evangelion teaches that everyone is in the middle of a nervous breakdown and gives a message that is everyone is pathetic. That's just Anno view of the world because he was one of those pathetic people.

NAILED IT

>>14055575

Also the CGS intro arc, nothing is more depressing than watching an eager pilot die an closed coffin death at the hands of an completely sadistic fuck of a pilot or the countless corpses during the first skirmish before even the MS hit the ground.

>>14055401
>Make the protagonist and or their machine out to be some kind of demon of the battlefield.
>Make people uncomfortable with the raw force of combat. Make them go "this is wrong."
>Progress the protag to the point they are beginning to curbstomp the opposition.
>"when fighting monsters, remember who the real monster is."
Ace Combat? Zero comes to mind with the whole allied forces bombing cities thing.

>>14056465
>telling him to put his trip back on
Stop it or he'll actually do it

>>14056713
Playing Assault Horizon on the 3DS, I always felt bad for the Rebel Forces. They sound so terrified, helpless against the ace Phoenix. I actually didn't pay any attention to the story, so I have no clue what I'm fighting for. Aren't Rebels normally the good guys?

>>14056769
>They sound so terrified
That's normal for Ace Combat.

ACX has a mission where you are forced to fly slow while fighters hound your ass and talk shit about you.
>This is Nemesis? With that shitty flying?

>>14056713
Ace Combat is an even worse example. The message tries to be "war is bad", but ends up coming across as "war is only bad if you're not the protagonist, then it's pretty fucking awesome", and players just talk about how good Mobius 1 and the Razgriz are. Cipher is still the best AC protagonist.

>>14056480

He couldn't use the robot anyway, it was trapped in bakelite.

>>14055525
>Tomino was right when he said Evangelion teaches that everyone is in the middle of a nervous breakdown and gives a message that is everyone is pathetic.
I don't see how this is wong

>>14056954
Your life must be pretty sad

>>14053807
Doesn't help that they always turn it into a fucking after school club.

>>14055525
>Tomino was right when he said Evangelion teaches that everyone is in the middle of a nervous breakdown and gives a message that is everyone is pathetic.
And Gundam's message is that it's ok to run off in a top secret war machine and kill a bunch of enemy soldiers in a one sided massacre if your mom doesn't approve of you being a soldier.

Two can play this game.

>>14056982
Name two animes like that.

>>14056984
Except for that detail where Tomino makes a legitimate point and you're just verbally throwing a tantrum.

>>14056984
A story's characters, including the main protagonist, don't explicitly advocate or represent the writers ideas.

What made Evangelion bad in that regard is that literally every cast member is like that without exception, and it's not just their actions. It's their entire personalities. Naturally, this represents a distorted worldview or a pretentious, edgy faggot.

>>14056993
Nice ad hominem.

>>14057001
>Main characters constantly getting away with bullshit is ok when my Tomino does it

>>14055525
You forgot the part where Tomino is a fucking hack who makes a character who starts killing people for fun and only later on actually questions what he's doing.

>>14056989

Just two? I'll start with the obvious ones.

Macross Frontier and Code Geass.

>>14056927
Its more of a horrible-on-second-thought thing imo. The horrible aspects only really become clear when you pay attention to it. The Belkans nuking their own cities is a pretty obvious one. The use of biological weapons(That's in one possible route of X), the bombing of civilian cities in general, giving the symbol of international symbol of peace weapons, etc. The horrible things are mentioned, people don't really notice them unless its plot/character-related.

You play from the perspective of the monster, the Demon Lord, Grim Reaper, Razgriz, whatever the enemy names you. You are the monster. Naturally, your allies are happy to have you on their side. In the story, the player character interacts with his allies/squadmates most of the time, and they do acknowledge how dangerous you are by praising your skills.
Does the player character interact with the enemies? Not really. Civilians? Not really. Its an one-sided view of the whole thing. The cutscenes and whatnot showed things from the other sides, the interviews of the aces in Zero, the letters from the boy in 4, they tell you the things that you don't catch from playing as a soldier in a war.

All you hear over the radio chatter from the enemy most of the time is variants of "Its the [Player Character]! Help me!" anyway.

>>14057010
How the fuck is Geass about an "after school club"? Simply because a few of the characters are occasionally shown in their uniforms? So where the fucking Mazinger characters, dumb fuck.

>>14056984

Tomino is right, Evangelion does purposefuly overplay the the casts' neurosis and Tomino himself is guilty of that as much as Eva did in stuff like Ideon which Eva borrowed from. That is what makes both of them great actually.

>>14057027
If you can't see the "lets go play war after class" then I don't know what to tell you.

>>14057005
Just to get this out of the way, that's not really ad hominem, it actually did at least have something to do with your weak argument.

>>Main characters constantly getting away with bullshit is ok when my Tomino does it
More importantly, that's not how it works. The trend you cited hardly compares to again, the entire personalities of the entire cast. Especially considering the circumstances. It's not like Amuro was the one dropping colonies on cities and shit, that was Zeon. Just because he flips his shit and murders a bunch of soldiers doesn't somehow mean killing people is okay, because unlike in Eva it's a matter of circumstance.

>>14056970

Well I am on 4chan

>>14057177
hit submit too soon

Meant to say "Well I am on 4chan at almost 2 in the morning"

>>14055627
>Muramasa

Problem with that is only like 2-3 people on /m/ aren't EOPs.

>>14057178
Mashing F5 and hoping for a (You) to appear.

>>14056907
fuck that level so much

>>14057228
Genuine tip: Set the controls to Novice. You can do this via the pause menu, so switch to Novice controls, neutralise the nerve gas, switch back to Expert controls, then shoot down the idiots trash talking you earlier.

>>14056769
The coup forces are absolute douchenozzles looking to upset the status quo only a few years before a planet killer asteroid is set to skullfuck the planet because MUH PICKING SIDES IN THE OSEA/YUKTOBANIA COLD WAR.

I'm not making this shit up.

>>14057228
You really have to restrain yourself. Don't throttle up, or pull hard turns. Tap that shit.

And if you neutralized all the gas, make sure to dump the payload before accelerating or turning to shoot them down.

>>14054134
I will never fucking understnad how faggots like you can lay all the blame on Shiinji, yeah he was a whiny bitch but he always stepped up to stop the eldritch horrors that came shambling his way, he knew if they reached whatever it was that they wanted it would result in the world ending and he fucking hated the world for making his life as shitty as possible, he could just have rolled over and let them destroy the planet and yet he went time and time again to stop them while being scarred physically and mentally every single time and saying his father tried to put him into the safest position? DId actually fucking watch the goddamn show? Gendo was a faggot who could only think of MUH WAIFU to the detriment of the whole human race, he started the apocalypse because he wanted to see her, he put his son in the one position that would end with his mind fucking gone, he never cared about anyone but his whore of a wife

>>14053804

They really should just tell a pro-war story instead.

>>14054155

What? I thought the point of Evangelion was that kids are helpless pawns in the hands of adults.

Like, they were never fighting to save the Earth, not really. They were fighting to keep the world from ending until SEELE could end it on their own terms. In fact, I assume they deliberately picked fucked-up and broken people so that all these people could be killed when push came to shove.

Like, the plan was always to have the pilots murdered by the mass-produced EVAs or just shot dead. If you were a hot-blooded badass, they would likely poison you in your sleep or put a bullet in the back of your head when you were no longer useful.

The LAST person SEELE wanted would be someone who would resist them to the end. They wanted tools that could be broken and discarded when there was no more use for them.

>>14057526
>the eldritch horrors
And I never understand why people call the angels that, when they clearly weren't.

>>14057651

What else would you call them? They were soul-rapingly terrible. Everything about them was freaky, even the giant eight-sided die that shot titantic laser beams.

That's some fucked-up shit, man. And Shinji had to fight them.

>>14057208
>Mashing F5

We have extensions to do that for us now

>>14057794
Yeah

now we just mash R

>>14057661
The angels weren't even remotely eldritch like or H.P. Lovecraft inspired, and people need to stop calling them that.

>>14057805
Do you actually know what the word means fuckface? It means unearthly or strange, fucking hell

>>14057805
>Eldritch is synonymous with Lovecraftian

>>14057796
Mine is still U.

>>14057039
Aside from the fallacy involved because of all the nitpicks to the description, neither of those shows were ever "anti-war stories" in he first place. Not all mecha shows where people get killed or suffer are "anti-war"

>>14057796

I just click the little number ticking down in the top right corner

>>14056480
To be fair if he didn't kill the only person that understood him and talked to him about his issues he probably wouldn't be in the cataconic state he was in when EoE started.

On the other hand, had he let Kaworu live, the world would most likely end.

>>14053804
You cant really.

War is bad because people die.

'War is bad' series typically don't show more than a handfull of main characters dying in a dramatic way.

Most mecha battles are just clip shows of explosions and the death of the backround characters are usually left to the imagination or not shown at all.

If more 'war is bad' series showed a higher number of detailed and gruesome or realistic injuries and deaths, the message might stick a little better.

But right now, it's hard for me to feel any emotion at all for that GM or Zaku pilot that just exploded into a pink circle.

I just watched the Animatrix a few weeks ago for the first time, and the first two segments of the film had some pretty gruesome and detailed imigary of human suffering. If mecha was darker and had more gore, I think the message would come across a lot stronger.

No I'm not an edgelord, I just know what works.

Relevant
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ChlJ1pdWlQ

>>14057661
>What else would you call them

Kind of gross.

The only one that was actually soul raping literally raped someone's soul, which qualifies for eldritch.