Gundam SEED

>>13874318
I won't dwell too much on the use of stock footage but it was obscene. Is there a story behind Azrael's pilots? They are terrible nobodies that magically won't die no matter what Kira/Assrun throw at them for 10+ episodes but when Yzak arrives he takes them out casually in two episode. When Tomino uses fodder, they barely last more than one episode.

Why does Fukuda enjoy blowing people up with microwaves so much?
Why does Andy magically survives even though all he does is sit in a chair?
How did Kira get out of the Strike in episode 30?
How come the OP/ED paint those main characters are passionate couples early on when they actually barely interact?
Did Kira and Assrun become newtypes in the last episode?

Flay was the best character.
Nicol liked to play the piano.
Tolle didn't fly so well.
Buster was stuck in a endless stock footage loop.
Despite claiming to make the impossible possible, Mu didn't make SEED good.
And remember that Kira didn't even kill Rau himself.

Watch Destiny and see how you feel after that.

SEED is fine, it's just solidly mediocre. Destiny is just so bad it shits over your memory of SEED too.

>>13874323
I'll start Destiny later today. I went with the remaster for SEED but I'll try the original for Destiny.

I kinda enjoyed SEED whenever it wasn't about Kira, Lacus, Assrun and Cagalli.

>>13874319
>Why does Fukuda enjoy blowing people up with microwaves so much?

Gore fetish. Even Cross Ange is like that. Fukuda gets off to gore.

>Why does Andy magically survives even though all he does is sit in a chair?

Fukuda literally said that Andy survived because there weren't enough cool adults left so he brought Andy back. He also said somebody was supposed to die but he liked their voice too much to kill them.

>How did Kira get out of the Strike in episode 30?

The main character of Gundam Seed Astray was watching the battle and got Kira out of the cockpit after the explosion. He gave Kira to the blind guy on the island with the orphans who sent Kira to Lacus. Why? Because the blind guy heard Lacus talking about Kira once so he sent him to her. Yeah, it's fucking stupid.

>How come the OP/ED paint those main characters are passionate couples early on when they actually barely interact?

Fukuda is a hack. It's even worse in Destiny

>Did Kira and Assrun become newtypes in the last episode?

Athrun? Nope. Kira? He's a newtype in Destiny when the plot calls for it with no explanation despite the fact that Fukuda said Mwu and Rau were the only newtypes.

>>13874415
>Fukuda literally said that Andy survived because there weren't enough cool adults left so he brought Andy back. He also said somebody was supposed to die but he liked their voice too much to kill them.
Oddly enough he said those things in the same sentence, go figure.

>>13874319
Also Cagalli was a distracting character that accomplished nothing and served little to no purpose aside from getting the Archangel a free pass into Orb. Her "romance" with Assrun was taking away from his relationship with Kira and the reveal of her being Kira's sibling adds absolutely nothing the their characters or anything else. Also pink Strike, which is something the show really didn't need. Plus her voice sounds awful. Still better than Lacus I guess but what isn't?

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>>13874332
>I'll start Destiny later today
>I kinda enjoyed SEED whenever it wasn't about Kira, Lacus, Assrun and Cagalli.
Ah. Ahah. Ahahahahaha!

My thoughts are with you anon. Stay strong.

>>13874332
> whenever it wasn't about Kira, Lacus, Assrun and Cagalli.
Don't watch Gundam SEED Destiny. Not even jokingly.

>>13874415
>He also said somebody was supposed to die but he liked their voice too much to kill them.
Probably Yzak, it's no mystery that Seki Tomakazu's hamming up his performance made Yzak more likeable than he was originally intended to be. I remember the guy getting a surge of popularity in fact around back then.

>>13874665
Yzak got a lot more tolerable when Dearka wasn't around anymore to support his shitposting antics.

>>13874415
It makes sense for Kira to be a Newtype, considering the revelation that he was made from Rau's DNA. Which is why his Newtypeness pretty much only shows up when using DRAGOONs or around Rau/Rey.

SEED was actually the first Gundam show I really liked. Didn't care for Destiny, though it had some great moments. But it revitalized Gundam and actually made it possible for new shows to happen.

>>13874665

I thought that was Dearka, and how he sounded too nice to be a bad guy so between that and Bandai wanting to up sales of his Gundam they made him switch sides. Otherwise he'd probably have been offed with Nicol when it was time to break up the Cruset team as the regular bad guys.

I couldn't see them killing Yzak. Kira choosing to not kill him despite everything that had happened between them was a big part of his transition to Jesus mode.

>>13874732
>Bandai wanting to up sales of his Gundam they made him switch sides
Considering they never produced more new footage for the Buster I seriously doubt that.

Did you watch Destiny yet OP? I bet you didn't.

>>13874319
Andy's VA even thought Fukuda was mad to bring Andrew Watfeld back.

>>13874591
Cagalli does a lot though. She's Kira's emotional pillar through almost the entire series. And she's the character that gets Orb to really play a part in the story, even when that part is fucking retarded. The reveal was dumb though; it should've led to something insane, like the plan being to have her and Kira fuck to have the ultimate Natural/Coordinator baby or something.

>>13874318
Lacus is the most scary warmonger of them all, she has a special op unit, the most advance research facilities, and every intention of using it.

The more you think about it, the more scarier she gets.

>>13874760

They had new footage for Buster. Actually a fair amount. It's just that they still kept reusing the two "combine guns and fire" animation all the damn time.

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>>13874884
I've been saying this since the beginning, but no one listened. Now you have doomed us all.

>>13874824
SEED was actually okay. Love Cagalli myself, my favourite character in Gundam after Sayla.

>SEED Destiny is everything that is wrong with anime

I'll continue to pretend it never happened.

>>13874884

Lacus just doesn't work as an evil overlord. She does'nt have an evil plan. She just wants everyone to get along. Durandal wanted to be the genetic masteroverlord, Djbril and Azrael wanted to kill all the Coordinators, and Rau wanted to kill everyone. Lacus has all the connections of an evil overlord that she doesn't actually use to do evil.

>>13875044
that's what's scary.overexposure to that much political power is a scary thought, considering that Power eventually corrupts someone

>>13874884
You forgot to mention that she has the populace of the entire earth sphere wrapped around her finger to the point that they'll literally think whatever she tells them to.

>>13875044
Durandal just wanted everyone to get along too, and look where that got him. The best of intentions etc etc.

Lacus plays more like a cult leader than a singer.

>>13875136
>Durandal just wanted everyone to get along too

It's hard to argue that when his method of doing so was "everyone does what I think they should, forever, or you get the death ray" Lacus in comparison isn't actually enforcing anything and even if she did her methods of enforcement are far more forgiving and less bloody than everyone else.

>>13874415
>Fukuda literally said that Andy survived because there weren't enough cool adults left so he brought Andy back. He also said somebody was supposed to die but he liked their voice too much to kill them.

That was Andy.

>>13874665
>Probably Yzak, it's no mystery that Seki Tomakazu's hamming up his performance made Yzak more likeable than he was originally intended to be. I remember the guy getting a surge of popularity in fact around back then.

From the Kyoto interview, Yzak wasn't supposed to be that hot-blooded. But when Fukuda heard Tomakazu's performance he changed the character into the Yzak we got.

This thread always crops up because newfags think their opinion is unique. It is widely accepted that Seed and Seed destiny is in the bottom 5 worst gundams of all time. It terrible all the way through. Too lazt to type up essays and find old posts pretty much destroying the show.

>>13874318
>Then you have all those nonsensical things. For the 30 first episodes, SEED doesn't try to be much more than a poor man's 0079 but after that point things get weird as they try to have a very small force serves as the strawman in a planetary scale war.

Well, for the first thirty episodes the "villain" is war itself.

After the first thirty episodes the villain is the White Men In Suits who Control The World.

It's bizarre.

>>13875302
>It is widely accepted that Seed and Seed destiny is in the bottom 5 worst gundams of all time

I don't know about you but I don't think Seed is that terrible. I only saw it recently so it's not nostalgia talking to me. Sure, the stock footage can get annoying but most of the characters and the story ain't half bad. Except for Lacus, seriously that girl is annoying.

Haven't seen Destiny yet but I am at least prepared for it.

>>13875302
>Muh hive mind

Jesus this is what I hate the most. People can't form their own opinions anymore. I liked SEED and I don't care.

>>13875361
>taking one autismo as characteristic of /m/

People like him don't belong here, you know that, right?

>>13875312

Zaft were pretty villianous early on with them openly insulting and despising naturals for mostly just not being as genetically good as them. This was eventually downplayed once EA became the worse faction and some Zaft guys were shown to be decent, but early on you had Yzak and Dearka laughing off Heliopolis getting blown up with "Meh fuck the naturals anyways."

By Destiny that's mostly gone, although upon revealing the Destiny Plan makes a few comments suggesting he doesn't like Naturals all that much himself, although not to the genocide point.

>>13874318
>Kira's character is completely derailed
False. Kira pops up in ZAFT and gets the Freedom, but he ALWAYS was a whiny little fuck who didn't want to kill anyone 'cuz war's baaad. What Freedom does is remove the burden out of him; instead of having him do the slightest of efforts (thus develop him as both a character and an MS pilot), he gets the easy way out.

>Did Kira and Assrun become newtypes in the last episode?
Yes. Kira "magically" senses Fllay in the final episode and breaks formation from Athrun.

>Is there a story behind Azrael's pilots? They are terrible nobodies that magically won't die no matter what Kira/Assrun throw at them for 10+ episodes
As I've argued to no end, the only reason those three pukes appeared is that, after Orb, the show ran out of bad guys, so they had to put some things for the heroes to fight against, regardless of logic or even basic characterization.

>>13875044
Lacus is a Robespierre in waiting. A bright eyed idealist who easily will be corrupted by the reality of power.

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Does anyone like Kira as a character?

I could sympathize with him in early SEED when he was forced to fight and was manipulated into that fucked up relation with Flay.

But once he has his "revelation" when Lacus magically heals him he goes downhill as a full Gary Stu. In Destiny this is exacerbated and I can't stand him.

>>13874674
This post is wrong on so many levels...

>It makes sense for Kira to be a Newtype, considering the revelation that he was made from Rau's DNA.
INCORRECT. Kira (and Cagalli) was the son of Ulen Hibiki, the mad scientist who cloned Al Da Flaga. That's where their relationship starts and ends.

>Which is why his Newtypeness pretty much only shows up when using DRAGOONs or around Rau/Rey.
That's not how "Newtypes" work in SEED. Remote weapons require something called "enhanced spatial awareness" (whatever the fuck that means), not a psychic esper power. SEED's "Newtypes" can, apparently, only sense each other. Not use those powers as a targeting system, like it does in UC and X.

>SEED was actually the first Gundam show I really liked. Didn't care for Destiny, though it had some great moments.
Your taste is pretty fucking low.

>But it revitalized Gundam and actually made it possible for new shows to happen.
BULLSHIT. The Gundam franchise is the largest income source for Bandai. SEED or no SEED, they would've continued releasing shows for the same reason Disney shits out Marvel and Star Wars productions.
And even if the franchise had died out in 1999, it could've been for the best. Have Sunrise take their chances with a new IP, instead of doing endless variations of the same show with all the robots having the exact same basic design, and the stories being very much alike in both settings and characterizations.

>>13875044
>Lacus has all the connections of an evil overlord that she doesn't actually use to do evil.

That's the rub - as much as people like to build her up as this Palpatine-esque puppet master...she never really makes enough of a move to fit the part. Even the end of Destiny more forces her into the leadership role because there's not really anyone else established as left who could take Gilbert's place.

...which, granted, is symptomatic of how much more poorly defined Destiny-era ZAFT is that Fukuda couldn't even be bothered making other people on the council who would question him the way they did Patrick Zala.

As a rule, if you're going to launch a protracted war on the 'best defense is a good offense' logic, and then later declare war on what's effectively the Illuminati based on proof you've had with you the whole time, the odds are at least some of your council are going to stop and say "....wait a sec."

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>>13875835
>Does anyone like Kira as a character?
No. Not in the slightest. In my opinion, he is the most obnoxious protagonist in the whole franchise, if not anime as a whole.

All he did was whine, whine and whine about being forced to fight (and why did Murrue force him to, anyway? Was the Archangel that defenseless without an MS?), plus all that bullshit about being conflicted between Athrun and those so-called "friends" of his in the Archangel. And when he wasn't complaining, he was being a self-righteous dickhead (especially noticeable during the desert arc) against Cagalli and Sai.

His "piloting" depends almost exclusively in having both technical superiority against his enemies at all times, and being able to precisely customize the mobile suit according to his personal needs. Instead of having to make due with what he had, he's never challenged considerably.
Even during the obligatory sea battle, Murrue and Natarle mention that the Strike cannot fight underwater. Does he have even the slightest difficulty to win? Is the Strike left damaged in any way? No. The series mentions a liability... but doesn't use it.

After obtaining Freedom, all the Mary Sue points Kira had been accumulating are multiplied.

>>13875916
>Was the Archangel that defenseless without an MS?

From what we saw? ... Yeah, prettymuch.
Mwu's no slouch as a pilot, but as we saw, the Mobius Zero didn't have enough firepower to really take down the enemy the way the Strike did.

Even the Skygraspers only did just so much to level the playing field as support units. And given the ability of Gundams in SEED to tank solid rounds, the fighters really didn't have a whole lot of ability to slow them down compared to Strike.

>>13874332
Watch the hd, it improves far more than the seed he remaster did.

>>13875928
>the fighters really didn't have a whole lot of ability to slow them down compared to Strike.

Skygrasper's had beam weapons, and in the right equipment and hands, could be used against the GAT weapons effectively (Mu downed Buster with the Launcher Grasper)

But that was later on. In space without Kira they'd have been fucked.

>>13875835
The thing is, even as a conflicted Coordinator gripped with existential angst and grappling with the alienation that brings from his childhood friends... he's really not that interesting. It's the same basic shounen story of some random guy finding out he has powers, that his parents weren't quite who he thought they were, and now he has to figure out how to use his powers and play a role in a conflict he never really wanted a part in, but now feels obligated to solve. Right down to the "Screw you (powers that be) I'm just fighting to protect my friends!"

Now, while that's well-trodden ground, if he had stayed there it would have at least been tolerable. But oh no, not only is he the key to ending the war, he becomes the anointed one who (save for some plot-necessary overrides to set up Flay as a damsel or get a new suit), never really fails or falters. Even when people bitch that he made things worse, they ultimately come around to realize they were the ones in the wrong, that he was really the one true warrior of peace the entire time.

Even that early period, I found it wasn't so much him as a character that was entertaining, but how the Strike's battles were handled. The things like adjusting foot pressure to walk on sand, or flipping the sand with thrusters to kick up a sand screen. The pack-swapping mid-battle, or even the first few fights that at least had some tension, including the looming threat of exhausting the battery and losing Phase Shift. All of that good mechanics-centered combat structure just went out the window the moment Freedom showed up, and with it Kira's one redeeming character 'feature'.

>>13875928
Don't think about the support craft (MS, fighters) at all, which is what you did in your post. I'm considering the Archangel in and on itself.

People in this board have argued over and over that the Archangel was basically "a Gundam in ship form". The Strike improves things for the ship? Absolutely. But I refuse to believe that, with all its weaponry, the Archangel was utterly defenseless without it.

>>13875916
>His "piloting" depends almost exclusively in having both technical superiority against his enemies at all times, and being able to precisely customize the mobile suit according to his personal needs. Instead of having to make due with what he had, he's never challenged considerably.

You could easily say the same thing about Shinn. He slaugters his way through his enemies with his superior MS just as easily as Kira aside from the one time Kira damaged him.

Or any Gundam pilot really. Gundam's are just instant win machines in CE.

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What I don't get is how Fukuda used to make GOOD shows then suddenly became awful.

Dendoh is just straight-up good. Its a colourful toy advert yet there's lots of inventive fighting, and fairly minimal stock footage.

Cyber formula was pretty amazing, then Hayato gets a literal Seed mode and his stock footage 'lifting turn' that lets them avoid choreographing any actual racing, and the last entry (SIN) is proto-Destiny, where Fukuda can't decide if one of the side characters is going to be the new main character or not, so they both get stock footage racing moves that they spam as if it means something.

Its like Fukuda got replaced by someone who couldn't be bothered trying anymore around 1997.

SEED's just, I dunno. It's not the worst thing to come from Gundam. It's just incredibly mediocre.

It really boils down to being just 0079 with a modern coat of paint on it, with some added trappings to keep the toy execs happy.

I think that's probably what really keeps Fukuda from doing anything fantastic: He's a yes man. Where as Tomino despises all the merchandising stuff ("Toy companies are the true enemies of Gundam" or whatever his quote is), Fukuda's the first to say "Sure, bro. We'll try and spike those sales!"

That being said, I think SEED had some cool characters. Namely anyone that wasn't Kira or Lacus. And I enjoyed the Cosmic Era as a setting.

As mediocre as SEED was and as shitty as DESTINY was, we did get some good spin-offs at least. So, it's not a total failure.

>>13875979
It's the classic ship v MS problem. The fire power's good, but you're expecting it to be able to keep up with numerous MS, at least four of which are sporting experimental weaponry and piloted by high end pilots.

Throw in the skeleton crew and the fact is, it's unreasonable to expect that ship to be able to keep up.
Especially in the immediate aftermath of Heliopolis. If it was a full, fully trained crew compliment, that'd be one thing, but as it's presented within the series, I just don't see it.

>>13876005
Oh, and one Gundam was magically able to change the enemy's weapons?

It's still one against four. Total bullshit. It's what actually happened, yes, but it's bullshit.

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>>13875976
>grappling with the alienation that brings from his childhood friends...
Childhood friends? Those pukes were just classmates. Athrun was a childhood friend, not the gaggle of imbeciles aboard the Archangel.

>Right down to the "Screw you (powers that be) I'm just fighting to protect my friends!"
Again, if the show had bothered to show actual friendship, a reason why we should give a flying fuck about these people, you buy it. All the successful shonen series (Kenshin, Wan Piss, Attack on Titan) manage to pull it.

SEED doesn't even make the effort, leaving those characters as random, worthless people that Kira risks his life for, at the same freaking time. The writing works under the backwards logic that "telling" us that "these people are Kira's friends, thus, his reason for fighting" is the same thing as showing them in social situations that merits Kira risking his life.

>>13876010
Not change, but at least level the playing field a bit more.

I mean, take the AA on its own and pit it against the four Gundams based on what we saw in the series. Without ANY support whatsoever, it's not going to look good for the AA.

To say nothing for factoring in the fact the AA is usually riding with Rau le Creuset, an ace and the CE equivalent of a Newtype.

Without any supports to keep any of that busy, that ship is on borrowed time.

>>13876042
>Without ANY support whatsoever, it's not going to look good for the AA.
It's going to look good when it shows the crew making good with what they have, instead of being totally dependent on a single mobile suit. That's interesting writing right there.

>and the CE equivalent of a Newtype
Again, Newtypes only sense each other's presence. And Rau only had an upgraded GINN. Not the most daunting of foes for the Archangel.

>>13876036
That's somewhat the point - he wasn't interesting, he wasn't doing his bit well, and that bit was fairly generic to start with. And that was STILL not nearly as bad as what he became.

>>13876065
More or less. Kira was a bad character that became an awful fucking character after Lacus and the Freedom.

>>13875835
>Does anyone like Kira as a character?
Are we talking about people in general or only the sane ones?

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You know, I think if Kira had been like a Gundam version of Charlie Eppes, and he MATH'd his way out of problems every so often, it would have given him more of a flavor than just being that guy that was always right. If his Coordinator abilities had manifested on screen in being a math/science/programming savant, and he kept getting into tough spots in battle, then suddenly seeing some pattern and programming some crazy shit to get out of it, using some combination of his suit and the terrain. At the very least, it'd make it feel more squarely like science-fiction than magical robots lobbing glow sticks at each other.

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>>13876094
>You know, I think if Kira had been like a Gundam version of Charlie Eppes, and he MATH'd his way out of problems every so often, it would have given him more of a flavor than just being that guy that was always right.
>If his Coordinator abilities had manifested on screen in being a math/science/programming savant, and he kept getting into tough spots in battle, then suddenly seeing some pattern and programming some crazy shit to get out of it, using some combination of his suit and the terrain.
>At the very least, it'd make it feel more squarely like science-fiction than magical robots lobbing glow sticks at each other.
Oh, but they did exactly that in another show! And it's an even blander character than Kira Yamato, believe it or not!

>>13875950
That's why I went with the original.

>>13876000

> 0079 with a modern coat of paint on it, with some added trappings to keep the toy execs happy.

Ehh, I wouldn't say that. SEED feels more dumbed down, less harsh, and designed for mass appeal whereas 0079 was supposed to be this groundbreaking anime, war story. Ir feels a lot safer than the original, more committee-designed.

If I had to say anything, SEED would be what Gundam is if Hollywood got it's hands on the franchise...just "Fuck yeah Japan!" rather than "Fuck yeah America!

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Daily reminder that this is what SEED Destiny should have really been.

>>13875810
>he ALWAYS was a whiny little fuck who didn't want to kill anyone
Amuro was pretty much the same, and it's perfectly justified given the pressures of their situations. It's just that Amuro came to terms with it, and Kira got given an out that could let him have his cake and eat it.

>>13876135
At least Amuro wanted to fight. It was difficult and he was alienated, but it wasn't coated with self-righteousness like "I HATE WAR! WE CAME TO THIS NEUTRAL COLONY TO GET AWAY FROM THE WAR!"

>>13874318
Seed's bad but not bad as Destiny, Age and Iron Blood Orphans.

>>13876115

Ianho left me completely indifferent and was barely a character while Kira disgusted me.

I'd say Inaho was a bit better.

>>13876135

With Seed's war you really couldn't come to an acceptance and commit to helping one side win, being that both sides wanted genocide so you'd have to want to wipe one out entirely.

Going rogue and busting up the entire war is really the only "moral" option there.

>>13876150
>Iron Blood Orphans.
The plot might be going nowhere, but mechanical and character design are a lot better. And at least, Tekketsu doesn't want me to murder anyone. It's bland and boring, but it's not actively awful the way SEED was.

>>13876156

*Inaho

fuck

>>13876157
>being that both sides wanted genocide so you'd have to want to wipe one out entirely.
>Going rogue and busting up the entire war is really the only "moral" option there.
Apart from the obvious difficulty this should have for the handful of characters (never actually portrayed as such, of course), it's one of the most imbecilic things in the whole Cosmic Era: both superpowers are unfathomably bad and only the non-aligned protagonists are any good. It's even more stupid than Star Wars and its silly Manichean logic.

>>13875219
Not what I meant. From what we're shown it's clear that Durandal had a noble overall goal (end race hatred between coordinators and naturals, and thus remove the root cause of the conflict that keep springing up). The best part is that he even pulled it off perfectly, for a time. The issue was that the very control freak trait that got him as far as he got led him to concoct a moronic 'fullproof' plan. Durandal as presented by the show is pretty transparent in his virtues and flaws, but Lacus is just kind of fishy. She mostly just babbles nonsense and leaves the actual work to her cat's paws, and we get no sense of the inner workings of her mind. But we know she has this spy network, we know she built a private army and we know (and she knows, and Durandal knew) that she can influence the general public just by being Lacus Clyne. She also stashed a hilariously illegal nuclear weapon away in her basement for a rainy day. And in the end she's seized supreme control of ZAFT (the only power in any kind of shape) in what can only be called a coup, formed a government stacked with her own loyal followers, is sleeping with the supreme commander of the EA who is himself the brother of the leader of ORB, which puts the entire earth sphere under her thumb.

>Lacus in comparison isn't actually enforcing anything
We don't know that. We know nothing about Lacus's government, since the series ends when she takes control. We do know that the racial tensions are still there and will certainly lead to violence. She's going to have to keep that in check somehow.

>her methods of enforcement are far more forgiving and less bloody than everyone else.
Again, we know nothing about her policy. But considering Kira's response to Durandal's inquiry about the situation, the plan was apparently to just have him fight any insurgents, which has worked so well in real life.

TLDR, Lacus is a question mark, but is dubious enough that doubt in her is far from misplaced.

>>13876200
>TLDR, Lacus is a question mark, but is dubious enough that doubt in her is far from misplaced.
Problem is, we only have what the series show us to go on, and while you can put together the image of Darth Lacus from what they show at no point does she pull out the proverbial moustache to twirl, and if there's one thing Fukuda doesn't do is subtle. If he meant Lacus to be a secret stringpuller aiming for complete domination, he would've made it clear.

>>13876141
Amuro had reason to side with the EF. By contrast, Kira is a coordinator who would be more in place on the opposite side, is treated a bit more harshly partly due to that, partly because the White Base never had a hardass like Natarle expecting military behavior from a civie. Plus the people he's fighting for more or less started the war. All this stuff distances him from the rest of the crew much more than Amuro had been (he HAD people there for him, he was just an autist), which in conjunction with the pressure makes him go a little stir crazy, which led to the intriguing Flay angle.

At the early stages I don't think Kira's feelings on the subject were unjustified or self righteous. In the end he did fight and he did kill. Post Freedom is another kettle of fish entirely of course.

>>13876200
Kira has basically become Celestial Being at the beginning of Season 1.

>>13876243
Celestial Being had a modicum of self awareness and knew that their entire MO was hypocritical and contradictory. Kira would take one look at them and think 'They've got the right idea, they just need to learn how to do it without killing people', because Kira has never had a self aware bone in his body.

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>>13876200
>>13876229
There's also the issue that what the author writes (intent) and how it is interpreted by audiences (portrayal) are two different things. Fukuda and Morosawa clearly meant Lacus to be a sweet, peace-loving, kind-hearted girl who fights for what she believes.

It's a different thing that this comes across as the complete opposite.

>>13876229
I hate arguing death of the author, but when said author is as much of a hack as Fukuda it can't be helped. Sometimes their blunders strongly imply things they didn't intend, to the degree that it can't really be ignored. I'm not saying Lacus is an evil mastermind. I'm saying Fukuda made her look like one, or at least look nowhere near as good as he intended.

I'd like it noted that I normally hate reading crazy bullshit in a work, and tend to just take things according to face value, but that even I spotted most of this stuff when watching it for the first time with no prior knowledge of it.

>>13876242
>partly because the White Base never had a hardass like Natarle expecting military behavior from a civie.
Did you watch 0079? That's Bright Noa in a nutshell.

>I don't think Kira's feelings on the subject were unjustified or self righteous
When Kira failed to understand the situation he was in, it comes off as self-righteous.

>In the end he did fight and he did kill.
...and cried like a bitch after killing Waltfeld, a dangerous enemy.

>>13876135
I think Amuro's issues come more from PTSD than just not wanting to fight in general.
When he runs away from White Base, besides the NOBODY LOVES ME! routine, he desperately wanted to prove Bright wrong, so that he that he attacked a small Zeon base that was off to the side thinking it might be a core part of Zeon's desert operations.

It wasn't. Shit, he almost lost the Gundam to the Adzam.
But like you said, he just got over it.

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>>13876262
>Sometimes their blunders strongly imply things they didn't intend, to the degree that it can't really be ignored. I'm not saying Lacus is an evil mastermind. I'm saying Fukuda made her look like one, or at least look nowhere near as good as he intended.
>but that even I spotted most of this stuff when watching it for the first time with no prior knowledge of it.
See >>13876256. That's exactly what the book I excerpted that image from is arguing. Author wants to show X, but the writing is so bad that any reader with two brain cells to rub together understands it as Y, willing or unwillingly.

Take a look at this image. Clinton's mouth is saying that he did not have sexual relations with that woman. But why is he looking and pointing AWAY from the camera?

>>13875998
>Dendoh is just straight-up good. Its a colourful toy advert yet there's lots of inventive fighting, and fairly minimal stock footage.
>fairly minimal stock footage.
I'm a Dendoh nutcase, and I can tell you about episodes that are patched up with stock-footage.
But I agree with the rest. I don't know, I think the issue is that if you give Fukuda anything more complex than a SR story to write by himself (Dendoh had various writers), some calamity of writing will occur

>>13876274
Bright Noa was smart enough to know that he'd have to ease up around the civilian crew because they weren't used to military discipline. He still ended up being stern with Amuro sometimes because he was often a shit, but you never saw him chewing out, say, those guys running the radar. By contrast, Natarle has a massive stick up her ass and is constantly bitching about the situation.

>When Kira failed to understand the situation he was in, it comes off as self-righteous.
What wasn't he understainding? It's been a while, maybe her refused outright or something I don't remember? Regardless, you can be discontent with a situation and grumble about it while still ultimately putting up with it.

>and cried like a bitch after killing Waltfeld, a dangerous enemy.
...and someone he'd personally met (along with his girlfriend) and seen to be personable and apparently decent enough. People with little experience killing get upset over killing complete strangers, much less people they know.

>>13876296

Natarle was my fav SEED character.

She was competent and didn't let muh teenage melodrama get in the way of her work.

Also she had a very cool death and didn't get revived just to ruin it like Mu's.

>>13876262
>I'd like it noted that I normally hate reading crazy bullshit in a work, and tend to just take things according to face value, but that even I spotted most of this stuff when watching it for the first time with no prior knowledge of it.

Same with Kira. His development in Destiny ended with him completely devoted to Lacus after banishing all doubts (no one questions the notebook she finds at all), fighting with the biggest zealots outside of Blue Cosmos (the DOM "You'd have to be pretty messed up to disagree with Lacus-Sama" Troopers) and is intent on policing the world instead of living peacefully away from the war. He became a far more naive version of the Gundam Meisters at the start of 00.

There's a good argument that he's really the fallen hero, just he doesn't realize it.

OP here. 3 episode into Destiny, episode 1 was pretty decent but 2 and 3 were just tedious lots of nothing. SEED wasn't the most interetesting thing out there but it was far from being completely dull. I guess this is what happens when you remove all the Tomino while leaving only Fukuda.

>>13876296
>Bright Noa was smart enough to know that he'd have to ease up around the civilian crew because they weren't used to military discipline.
Bullshit. The only one with which he "took it easy" was Mirai. You know, his future spouse...

>By contrast, Natarle has a massive stick up her ass and is constantly bitching about the situation.
Did we watch the same show? Natarle was never like that. She understood the gravity of their situation and had training in the Archangel. Murrue is captain because of rank.
The exact same situation happened in Galactica: Bill Adama had to put up with Cain's heavy-handed tactics because she outranked him.

>>13876296
Bright was in fact an undue asshole, even to Amuro, because he's a 19-year old kid that was really not meant to be in full command of a space battleship. He ended up collapsing due to self-inflicted stress. Like Amuro, he did get better, but (also like Amuro) he was understandably overwhelmed by circumstances in the first part of the series.

>>13876200
>is sleeping with the supreme commander of the EA
>people responded seriously to this post

When will someone ban these threads Christ.

>>13876309
I didn't much care for her until the end (she did indeed have very cool death). She was that sort of officer all enlisted people complain about, the one that insists on psychotic devotion to regulations even in situations where that's not the best idea, and who flip their shit at irregular situations. And her staying loyal and subservient to her bosses even as it was apparent they were bonkers war criminals.

That being said, I liked the dynamic where the three of them kind of formed a single functional captain.

Mu had the highest actual rank, but wasn't really capable of commanding a ship for multiple reasons, so instead he offers input. He's the most relaxed, and recognises the need to take it easy on the conscripts, given the unprecedented situation.

Natarle is the uptight military one, and despite her being a hardass she's vital because being a hardass is sometimes absolutely necessary. But she's too inflexible and prone to falling back on her regimented training.

Murrue is the one command defaults to. She really isn't all that qualified, but she's more authoritative that Mu and more flexible than Natarle. She recognises the need for both discipline and the soft touch, and has to make the final call on the matter.

It's very Star Trek. Of course, Bright was basically all three of them by himself.

>>13876353
No, you're right. They don't sleep with each other. That would be too impure. Instead she sleeps chastely with orphans while he broods at the moon.

>>13876322
>The only one with which he "took it easy" was Mirai.
I may be misremembering, but I don't recal him riding the ass of anyone besides Amuro (and maybe Kai), since they mostly just kept their heads down and got on with it, whereas Amuro was a bit of a Diva.

>Natarle was never like that
It's the lasting impression I've of her, I had to have gotten it from somewhere. And I recall her strictly procedural approach being unsuited to their unconventional situation.

>>13876253

Honestly, I could see Kio giving Kira shit in a SRW game.

> You keep saying you want peace, but look at what you're doing. You're not even attempting to understand, you just want to push your way onto everyone! Why can't you see that!

>>13876379
Amuro could be a shit, but remember that the one thing he asks Bright before he comes down to his room for the infamous slap scene is whether he'll be able to get some sleep after he goes out to fight this one time. He had been going out against Char and assorted Zakus for a whole week non-stop, that's going to make you bitchy unless you're some bugfuck Go Nagai character. Bright got desperate because Amuro was literally the only thing keeping WB alive, and then the rest is history.

(And it's still Fraw Bow who shames Amuro into acting, not Bright.)

>>13876367
What he means is that Kira never had any sort of power in the EA (Earth Alliance) beyond being named Ensign by the Archangel's crew. And I don't think the brass in Alaska recognized his rank, or even his conscription.

As a matter of fact, the Earth Alliance had ceased to exist by the end of Destiny. They didn't even oppose the Destiny Plan, by virtue that they didn't have anything to oppose it with.
(not that anyone around here even noticed that one of the major superpowers in the war had gone away entirely, to the point that the peace deal in Final Plus is only between Orb and ZAFT).

>>13876289
>But why is he looking and pointing AWAY from the camera?
muh microexpressions

Lol

>>13876408
Like it or not, there's a disconnect between his body language and his words. I mean, it's pretty fucking obvious.

>muh
Stop this bullshit.

>>13876397
Okay.
Kira's not a great character, but at NO FUCKING POINT IN TIME does KIO, motherfcuking KIO get to preach to anyone about their methods or carrying them out.

Kio flip-flops more than a freshly prepared flapjacks on who he's going to fight and who he isn't goibng to fight, and enters battles half-assed and gets in his allies ways. He syas he's going to stop the war his own way, but has no idea on how he's going to do it, or to make other see that maybe his method is the best.
This could be a decent criticism on that kind of character if not for the fact that it's sloppy shitty writing instead.
Fuck that, Kio doesn't compare to Kira, even at the latter's worst. Kira at least has some sort of fucking conviction, that's more so than I can say for Kio

>>13876407
Doesn't he wind up highly placed there/in charge of their military/or something after the series? If not, where the hell am I remembering that from?

>>13876450
In Destiny and Final Plus he appeared in both Orb (blue and white) and ZAFT (white with black neck/belt) officer uniforms. In SEED, he used an EA junior officer uniform (the blue one).

So how would a conversation between Treize and Kira go?

>>13876493
I don't know, but I'd pay good money to see it.

>>13876493
Good question. Rau's motivation was that he, as a clone, lived a miserable life, thus, all of existence deserved to die. What was Treize's motivation?

>>13876493

>Get in the Epyon to be mindraped you little shit.

Destiny > Freedom > Infinite Justice = Strike Freedom > Strike > Shit = Strike Rouge > Justice

Durandal was right.

Prove me wrong.

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>>13876551
Strike Rouge and Strike are the exact same unit, numbnuts.

>>13876493
I imagine it ends any way with Kira getting verbally bitch slapped by Treize.

>>13876573
Not quite.

>>13876493
The real question is: would he manage to trick Kira to kill him?

>>13876573
One is piloted by an absolute shit-tier pilot, so no.

>>13876628
Yes, "quite". The only differences are software and serial numbers (GAT-X105/ORB-01). The shield was colored different, but that's a hand accessory.

>>13876638
>One is piloted by an absolute shit-tier pilot, so no.
Both units were piloted by an absolute shit-tier pilot at some point.

>>13876653
>The only differences
>b-but they're the same.

>>13876253

Kira occasionally admits to himself they might not be all that better than everyone else and maybe they aren't helping. It's just that he just shrugs and says it's not like he can do anything else and doesn't stop or change his methods.

Lacus herself does a big speech in Seed about how they're calling for peace with weapons in hand and they're kind of hypocrites for that. But that's immediately followed by them being the only ones able to shoot down the nukes in Plant, which kind of makes it look like that was in fact the exact thing to do.

>>13876670
When people say "differences", it tends to mean SUBSTANTIAL differences. Different serial number and OS (and even the latter was changed) doesn't change the fact that they are exactly the same physical chassis, on which not even the paint job is different.

>b-but
Stop this bullshit.

>>13876683

I think that the biggest problem isn't the hipocrisy or rationality, but that their rogue vigilantes of peace thing is proven to be the only correct choice and there are no adverse consecuences since everyone lives happily ever after.

Celestial Being in 00 was very similar in modus operandi and motivation, however not only did they acknowledge their contradictions but their actions fuck up the world completely.

>>13876693
>When people say "differences", it tends to mean SUBSTANTIAL differences
I'll forgive you for getting caught up in the idiomatic tendencies of the English vernacular, but there exists an explicit definition of the word difference.

Sorry, pal. It's over. You lost. Stop posting.

>>13876721
Don't argue semantics with me, dipshit. On each and any practical matters, Strike and Strike Rouge are the exact same mobile suit.

Oh, wait, I'm been trolled by a shitposter. I see. And you even have the gall to tell me to stop posting...

Sorry, pal. It's over. You lost. Stop posting.

Anyway, the basic point is that >>13876551 (who's very likely to be the same shitposter) is a moron because Strike and Strike Rouge are identical. "waah wahh i hate gagalli cuz shes a bad pilot" makes no difference in the unit itself

>>13876706
>but that their rogue vigilantes of peace thing is proven to be the only correct choice and there are no adverse consecuences since everyone lives happily ever after.

Yeah. All that talk about how Kira may be wrong feels like lipservice. It's there simply because it's expected to be there, not something the show really wants to discuss. It doesn't want to dwell too much on the morality of their actions because it wants you firmly on Team Kira.

>>13876693
Rogue had enhanced power and shield systems. It was an improved version of the original design, not a replica.

>>13876115
That maths science stuff was the best part of Inaho though.

>>13876423
Kio absolutely has the moral high ground against Kira. He unambiguously decides what he's going to do and sees it through consistently to the end. He takes a truly pacifistic point of view and from the point he decides that, he does not kill a single person, and actively works to reduce harm even others around him are doing. That he' isn't a figure of perfection in carrying out what he believes is no proof that he's wrong to think the way he does, what an absurd notion.

Kira's view on the other hand is incoherent - his is along the lines of "Killing is bad, so I will not kill. Except sometimes I'll kill . Also I completely don't care how much the people around me kill. Except Athrun, he's not allowed to kill."

>>13876798
It was basically a "win every battle every time" card.

>>13876821
>and actively works to reduce harm even others around him are doing.
And by doing that, he allows his (alleged) comrades in arms to get hurt and killed. Stupid kid needed a bullet to the skull the first time he did that stupid stunt.

>Except Athrun, he's not allowed to kill.
That was never explicit. I never saw Athrun following Kira's logic of not killing his foes. He even made one of the fucking druggies good.

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>>13876747
>Oh, wait, I'm been trolled by a shitposter. I'm not this one >>13876638, but you got me.

>>13876827
Don't get me wrong, I hate Inaho as a character.
I think that the science stuff was just a great component though, that was handled increadibly poorly.
Inaho could have been good if we saw him struggle a bit. This is getting off topic, but if I were writing Inaho, I would have made it so that no one really liked him. Because after all, he's just a quiet little autismo. During battle he comes up with great ideas but isn't able to execute him. Thus his character arc revolves around growing out of his autism so that he can gain the trust of others to help him execute his wacky science schemes.

>>13876706
>Celestial Being in 00 was very similar in modus operandi and motivation, however not only did they acknowledge their contradictions but their actions fuck up the world completely.

Much like Team Kira though, CB ends up completely vindicated in the end and all their actions are forgiven and portrayed as the right thing to do in the end.

In fact their earlier problem was caused entirely because a few traitors in the organzation tried to hijack the plan for their own ends so even that is shown to not really be their fault.

>>13876839
> never saw Athrun following Kira's logic of not killing his foes. He even made one of the fucking druggies good.
This was the same fight where Kira wasted a whole shipfull of people, no?

>>13876899
That's actually not true though. The original Celestial Being was by design meant to be 'wrong' - it's literal purpose was that it was an unsustainable thing that would need to be stopped and destroyed to achieve it's goal.

The traitorous faction within ensured that plan failed, and made the continued existence of the independent CB necessary. That second phase of CB did not function the way it did originally.

>>13876919
Fucking Mule

>>13876821
>Kira's view on the other hand is incoherent

Kira's view is he's not going to kill needlessly. So he won't murderize every grunt that crosses his path like Shinn tends to do, but he will kill crazy genocidal psychos or unstable city busting crazy girls because they need to be stopped, or kill 10 crewmen to stop a cannon from wiping out thousands because it was the only way to stop it.

Kio on the other hand couldn't even bring himself to kill Fatass Mc scumlord, a murderous psycho who had no value in living, and just parroted the same arguements to people that didn't want to hear it, because he literally could not wrap his brain around the Vagan having some guys that were just outright evil.

If Kio were in Seed he'd preach to Rau, which might as well be talking to a brick wall, until Rau killed him, fail to stop Stella from blowing everyone up, and would sit there and let Minerva blow the hell out of the Orb and EA fleet, because trying to stop them might kill a few people content with the knowledge that thousand's died, but at least HE didn't kill anyone.

No Kio takes pacifism to the stupid degree. Kira deserves more respect for being compassionate but not to the point of stupidity where he'd rather fuck everything up for everyone and get himself killed and the world doomed just so he can say he doesn't kill anyone.

You don't have to kill everyone on the battlefield, especially not people who are helpless against you and can easily be stopped, but some people are sum that deserve a bullet without a second thought.

>>13875427

By the mid season turning point the Lion King lays out pretty emphatically that like two people need to get murdered if the war is to end, made even more pronounced by the fact that Azrael was directly responsible for the nuke that started the war, while the other Illuminati types were kind of against it

>>13875916
>Was the Archangel that defenseless without an MS

In Gundam, carrier-battleships, battleships, and other ships in general are pretty defenseless without MS screens.

The main difference between the Archangel and most other Fed battleships is

1. It mounted a bigger main gun as well as two sets of guns equal to those of other battleships
2. Its armor wasn't made of paper, meaning it could survive a sustained MS assault for a moderate amount of time

Still dead in the water without an MS though, like any battleship in the franchise

>>13876935
>If Kio were in Seed he'd preach to Rau, which might as well be talking to a brick wall, until Rau killed him
I'd pay good money to see that happen. If possible, in the most gruesome possible way.

>>13876935

You advocate Just War, not Pacifism

>>13876924

Ribbons did nothing wrong.

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>>13876898
>if I were writing Inaho, I would have made it so that no one really liked him. Because after all, he's just a quiet little autismo. During battle he comes up with great ideas but isn't able to execute him. Thus his character arc revolves around growing out of his autism so that he can gain the trust of others to help him execute his wacky science schemes.
A good idea would've been to leave him in the backseat, while another pilot handles the actual fighting. It even works in-universe: Inaho pilots a Sleipnir, a trainer unit, right? And generally, trainers are twin-seaters.

>>13876947
>1. It mounted a bigger main gun, as well as two sets of guns equal to those of other battleships
From what we saw, all of the Archangel's weapons were new to the Earth Alliance. The beam turrets also appeared in the Izumo-class, not EA's ships. Also, the main gun were actually two (one in each leg)

>Still dead in the water without an MS though, like any battleship in the franchise
I'd buy that for any other protagonist vessel in the franchise, except the Archangel by virtue of its sheer firepower. No mobile suit(s) only means it has to play defense until it regroups with the rest of the fleet. Having the Strike (and all its packs) sure was convenient, but it was perfectly capable of putting up a moderate fight on its own.

>>13876821
>Also I completely don't care how much the people around me kill. Except Athrun, he's not allowed to kill.

Kira and Assram are so superior to the others that it's reasonable for Kira to expect Assram not to kill. They can both win without having to. Mwu can't, and asking him not to aim for cockpits is just going to get him killed, so they have no expectation of him winning without killing. And even then, they engage kill mode when faced with opponents too powerful to take down without significant amounts of murder (Rau and the druggies, for example).

... basically they're Superman

>>13877009
>all of the Archangel's weapons were new to the Earth Alliance

The LOHENGRIM and VALIANTO maybe, but the GOTTOFRIEDO were basically just beam cannons like the ones every ship in the war sported as a main gun

Like I don't know whether, say, ZAFT's Nazcas mounted more powerful beam cannons than EAs, but the beam colour is clearly the same!

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>>13877012
>And even then, they engage kill mode when faced with opponents too powerful to take down without significant amounts of murder (Rau and the druggies, for example).
Bullshit. Kira attacks one of the druggies, at point-blank range, with the only weapon in the Freedom he knows (or should know) is incapable of piercing phase-shift armor. He never even made a token attempt to stop the druggies.

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>>13876839
> And by doing that, he allows his (alleged) comrades in arms to get hurt and killed. Stupid kid needed a bullet to the skull the first time he did that stupid stunt.

And Kira's not? SRW Z calls him out on this, with Harry Ord saying his half-assed measures will end up leaving him and his allies dead. Harry advises Kira to quit if he's going to continue behaving like that.
>>13876935
>Kira's view is he's not going to kill needlessly. So he won't murderize every grunt that crosses his path like Shinn tends to do, but he will kill crazy genocidal psychos or unstable city busting crazy girls because they need to be stopped, or kill 10 crewmen to stop a cannon from wiping out thousands because it was the only way to stop it.

And yet because of Team Archangel declaring ZAFT was trying to take over ORB, a madman got away and ended up blowing up part of the PLANTS. That would be what? A couple million people?

And Kira doesn't even pause to consider the role he played in that massacre. So. Fucking. Compassionate.

And it's not like he couldn't just blow up the bridge in the pic, could he? Kira gets to play judge, jury and executioner and that's a good thing.

>>13877009
A moderate fight by ship standards is fairly exceptional.

But if anything it's the Archangel's defensive capabilities that were the thing incredible - basically nothing else could absorb the punishment it could take and keep fighting with it's prototype armor systems.

The Izumo's can nearly match it for firepower, since they were the basis for the Archangel in the first place.

>>13877023
No, the Gottfrieds are much larger than the standard Earth beam cannon. They're 225cm caliber, as opposed to the 90cm beam cannons on the Nelson-class battleships and the 125cm beam cannons on the Agamemnon-class.

Do these calibers mean anything?

>>13877045
>Bullshit. Kira attacks one of the druggies, at point-blank range, with the only weapon in the Freedom he knows (or should know) is incapable of piercing phase-shift armor

But railguns are totally energy weapons anon

>>13877047
>And Kira doesn't even pause to consider the role he played in that massacre.

To be fair, they had more important things to consider. Like shopping on the moon and waging war against the victims of that massacre.

>>13877047
>And Kira's not? SRW Z calls him out on this, with Harry Ord saying his half-assed measures will end up leaving him and his allies dead. Harry advises Kira to quit if he's going to continue behaving like that.
At least Kira is not actively stopping his allies from killing like Kio did.

>That would be what? A couple million people?
Not that bad. Two hourglasses = about half a million.

>>13877045
I'm more willing to blame this on MARKETING than Kira.
They aren't going to let those new Gundams get wrecked so soon so quickly.

>>13877049
>Do these calibers mean anything

Bigger beams

Since beam cannons don't use projectiles the only thing we can gauge their power on is the power of the ship's powerplant and the bore of the cannon

>>13877057
>Like shopping on the moon
That sequence was so utterly disconnected from logic. A huge battle just took place right next door, yet Lacus still goes on a shopping trip?

>>13877065
>They aren't going to let those new Gundams get wrecked so soon so quickly.
They did just that with one of the Throne Gundams.

>>13877096

>A huge battle just took place right next door, yet Lacus still goes on a shopping trip?

She needed to guilt trip Meer into fying for her.

Keikaku doori

>>13877104

*dying for her

>>13876821
>He unambiguously decides what he's going to do and sees it through consistently to the end.

You didn't watch Gundam AGE. Or at least, you're rewriting it in your head, or something. Kio has no goddamn agency throughout most of the series, and whenever he decides to do something, it's usually when it's a terrible idea. Consistent, Kio is not.

You know, for all of Kira's issues as a character, and not thinking fully about the consequences of his actions, you can at least take this away from the character, that he has some sort of conviction with his actions, that he knows that even what he's doing is wrong, he's going to do it anyway.

I can't say the same for Kio, because he's not getting in everyone's way, he's constantly flipflopping on the idea of "fighting his own way". When people are fighting, here comes Kio to get in everyone's way! Sometimes he disables Vegan grunts without thinking about it, and then other times he'll run into someone and mope on about why they should have to fight, and then everyone can just go home!
Oh, and let's not fucking forget that it's especially urgent that they stop "Girard-san" as soon as possible, and here comes Kio to get in everyone's way again. Even though this woman and her X-Rounder powers are going crazy, Kio can't even bring himself to try to disable the machine she's in so she at the very least won't be an immediate threat to everyone.
All he knows about this woman is that she was betrayed by Federation people who jumped ship to the Vegans, and that's still worth risking EVERYONE ELSE'S LIVES over!

Maybe Kio does have the moral high-ground, but what good is that if you don't know what the hell you're doing? If anything, Kio needs to take a few pointers in from Kira in getting in everyone's way.

>>13877096
>They did just that with one of the Throne Gundams.
The Throne Gundams had stuck around for several weeks, and in series, had been terrorizing the world for quite some time before ONE of them had taken any damage at all.

>>13877116
When Kio returns from Second Moon, he's absolutely convicted and consistent with his actions.

>>13877123
>The Throne Gundams had stuck around for several weeks,
All the Thrones debuted on episode 16. The two Trinity fudgepackers were made good by Ali on episode 22, with Eins destroyed. 7 episodes isn't that long.

>and in series, had been terrorizing the world for quite some time before ONE of them had taken any damage at all.
And in series, two and a half months pass between the battle in Mendel and the Solomon/A Baoa Qu ripoff.

>>13877116
Sure, and let's look at what Kira does.Let's see, he waits for battles to start rather than disabling the ORB fleet beforehand. He makes them more chaotic and leaves his opponents disabled, meaning they can't defend themselves against the people trying to kill them. This causes the war in that area to be prolonged, as neither side can take a definitive victory.

So, basically Kira makes the war worse. He has "conviction" as you put it, but ends up acting like a retard instead of doing what needs to be done.

Kio, on the other hand, wants to stop people from killing each other and work things out. He tries to prevent things from escalating further by protecting his enemies, whereas Kira is all "fuck it. My hands are clean."

>>13877156
>disabling the ORB fleet beforehand

YOU HAVE NO CONCEPT OF JUSTICE.

ENJOY YOUR NEW WAR.

>>13877156
>He tries to prevent things from escalating further by protecting his enemies,
And, in the process, having his own allies killed for the sake of some diseased ideal of justice. Fucking kid: throwing him out the airlock was too good a punishment for him.

>>13877161
What was stopping the Orb fleet from mutiny against the Seirans the second Kira and Cagalli appeared on the scene?

>>13877161
Kira's the one shooting at the people he wants to protect. His goal is to get ORB out of the war, so why not either disable their machines beforehand through raids or let Cagalli return to ORB and oust Yuna?

Oh right, the latter isn't exciting enough for Fukuda and the former doesn't build up Kira v. Shinn.

>>13877171
>What was stopping the Orb fleet from mutiny against the Seirans the second Kira and Cagalli appeared on the scene?

Their concept of justice.

The Seirans controlled the state and therefore had the right of their service, Cagalli (as princess) embodied the state, and therefore also had the right of their service.

These two justices conflicted severely, directly contributing to several Murasames exploding with no visible damage done.

>>13877156
>He tries to prevent things from escalating further by protecting his enemies

That's the exact same thing you're accusing Kira of doing, since Kio's keeping the Vagan's alive and interfering with allied attempts to stop them, which is just dragging the battles out, instead of just allowing his side to win. Kio has no plan beyond not wanting Vagan's to die and hoping they stop the war of their own accord (they won't since everyone is an Ezlecant worshipping lunatic)

Also Kira protects his enemies as well. He also tried to stop the Orb fleet from sinking Minerva in both encounters, even though he's no friend of Zaft and it would be easier for Orb and his own side if they just let Durandal's flagship get destroyed.

They could have just wasted that Zaft force sent after them in Angel Down and been on their way, instead of playing nice which almost got them all killed.

>>13876983
This too. Have Inaho play like a commander.
He comes up with the science tactics, but needs everyone else to execute it. This makes it look less like the world revolves around him, gives him a flaw (poor piloting), and makes everyone else not look like incompetent buffoons.

>What was stopping the Orb fleet from mutiny against the Seirans the second Kira and Cagalli appeared on the scene?

Orb following Japan's traditions. Basically, don't question orders from your bosses, work to make them look good. Their boss says Cagalli is a fake, so they make him look good and try to kill her.

>>13877186
>This makes it look less like the world revolves around him, gives him a flaw (poor piloting), and makes everyone else not look like incompetent buffoons.
It's basically what Zero did on Code Geass. Master tactician, but his piloting skill was sub-par.

>>13877187

This. Orb is so Japanese in it's ways it comes off as nigh impossible for western audiences to appreciate. Orb's insistance on following Yuna and marching to their deaths comes off as fucking stupid to the west, who expects people to stick it to the man when the man gets them down, but is oh tragic and "can't be helped" in the eyes of the Japanese.

>>13877193
I thought it was pretty tragic myself and I'm not a nip

But then us chinks have a similar mentality in place

>>13877181
>Also Kira protects his enemies as well. He also tried to stop the Orb fleet from sinking Minerva in both encounters,

Kira 'protected' his enemies in the most token fashion possible.

He crippled the Minerva and killed dozens of it's crew in the face of an entire Orb fleet hellbent on destroying it.

>>13877181
>Also Kira protects his enemies as well. He also tried to stop the Orb fleet from sinking Minerva in both encounters, even though he's no friend of Zaft and it would be easier for Orb and his own side if they just let Durandal's flagship get destroyed.
The only thing actions like these accomplish(ed) was allowing the blood-letting last even longer, since neither side can achieve a clean victory. Nice fucking work there, champ.

Remember A/Z's tagline? "Let Justice Be Done, Though the Heavens Fall"? It's based on an actual concept from Roman times: something that is right in the eyes of the law, but morally wrong: http://www.infoplease.com/dictionary/brewers/pisos-justice.html

That's basically Kira's concept of peace and justice (>>13877161/>>13877179): people fighting each other is bad, so any means to stop a fight are correct, regardless of circumstances and morality.

While Kio is a total retard, even more than Kira, I like the fact he was actively harmful against his own side and ultimately made things worse for his own side, his only positive achievement being convincing Flit to not genocide the shit out of the already defeated Vagans.

Meanwhile, everything Kira did was good and when he fucked up that ended up being a positive thing in the long run, being actively rewarded for his actions until he got with Freedom the asspull he needed to guarantee he would never have to stain his hand and could disable everything.

>>13877190
You know, despite the silliness and retarded politics, Geass had some well written characters.

>>13877201

Why does Minerva deserve to live more than everyone else? The entire argument against team Kira in Destiny is "they make things worse for the poor wittle Minerva crew" even though statistically they are keeping more people alive, just not on Minerva's side.

>>13877216
>neither side can achieve a clean victory.

Any side getting a clean victory in Seed is bad. This was mentioned above.

>>13877234
Even Orb's people destroying the Minerva for once?

>This was mentioned above.
And, as it was already explained, asinine however you cut it.

>>13877237
>Even Orb's people destroying the Minerva for once?

They tried to prevent that too. They didn't want Minerva or the fleet to be destroyed.

>>13877249
>They tried to prevent that too. They didn't want Minerva or the fleet to be destroyed.
I know that. It's a rhetorical question, genius. And it was a poor decision on the part of the people most committed to stopping Durandal.

>>13877225
>Why does Minerva deserve to live more than everyone else?

Won't somebody think about the safety of the poor genocidal attack fleet

>>13877262

That's cause they only want to stop Durandal. Not kill all his followers. Cycle of hatred and all that like they said in Seed.

>>13877225
The Minerva crew was going around freeing up slaves and getting people their land back. The Minerva crew was ambushed by the Orb fleet. The Minerva crew suffered the most losses in that battle due to Kira.

In the next encounter Kira shot off Rey's arm when he was the only person able to protect the Minerva since Shinn was preoccupied. He also chopped up his best friend and let him fall into the ocean where enemies could easily get him. The Minerva couldn't even retreat in this scenario because of the sheer numbers they faced. Kira showed up and helped them then screwed them over right after.

>>13877296
And, instead of having just a bunch of ZAFT servicemen dead onboard the destroyed Minerva (legitimate targets in an armed conflict), Kira allowed it to roam free for weeks until it got to its logical, most destructive conclusion with Messiah.

"Cycle of hatred" is bullshit wishful thinking.

>>13877225
It's not the Minerva's fault that Orb decided to cozy on up with the EA and keeps showing up in large groups in order to kill them, if anything it's not fair, because the odds are heavily stacked against the Minerva and shit like losing their main cannon is going to turn the tides against them.

If Kira's gang want to stop Orb from fighting, fine. The problem is that they wait specifically for the EA/Orb to start a battle with the Minerva and THEN jump in, and then decide if the Minerva gets to defend itself or not. If everyone from ZAFT died, they're not going to hold anyone accountable for it, they'll just sigh and call it a casualty of the cruel battles to come on, and go on about their lives.

If they really want to stop Orb from teaming up with the EA, they should be heading towards the source or doing something other than waiting for Orb to get into a fight, because it's like they're punishing the other side for trying to fight for their lives as well.

>>13877193

Similar to when Cagalli's father decided to sudoku along with his nation when Azrael attacked.

>>13877368
>Similar to when Cagalli's father decided to sudoku along with his nation

He only sudokud the Mass Driver, himself, his cabinet, and Morganroete anon

Presumably this directly led to the Seirans taking a stronger role on ORB's national policy with all of the aristocrats loyal to Uzumi's sense of justice dead

Thanks Uzumi

>>13877349
>If they really want to stop Orb from teaming up with the EA, they should be heading towards the source or doing something other than waiting for Orb to get into a fight

Athrun says this directly to Cagalli, and it's partially what enrages Kira enough to later utterly obliterate Savior to punish him.

Even after the Shinn tears the Orb fleet to shreds, Cagalli still stalls and refuses to go to Orb and face the problem directly.

>>13877382
Man, them Seirans though. Those two seemed pretty pointedly a Bush/Cheney expy.

>>13877405
>Athrun says this directly to Cagalli, and it's partially what enrages Kira enough to later utterly obliterate Savior to punish him.

It always gets me the double standard of shooting Athrun down in this show. Kira does it when enraged and it's a "fuck yeah. You show him Kira!" moment. But when Shinn does it when Athrun is suspected of treason, it's treated as him crossing some line.

>>13877421

They seemed a lot more like Bush and Bush

>>13877405
>>>If they really want to stop Orb from teaming up with the EA, they should be heading towards the source or doing something other than waiting for Orb to get into a fight

>Athrun says this directly to Cagalli, and it's partially what enrages Kira enough to later utterly obliterate Savior to punish him.

I don't get it. Why would Kira get so angry at his supposed best friend for telling him something that's obvious to anyone? The source of the problem is the goddamn Seirans making Orb a member of the Earth Alliance. Get rid of them via coup and it's problem fucking solved.
By the time Cagalli and Kira do anything, it's too late.

Also, it's utterly senseless that a minuscule island in the middle of the Pacific has such military power that its able to single-handedly shift the war balance for either side it joins. By all logic, Orb should be a bit player in the whole thing, like Belgium in NATO.

>>13877602
>Why would Kira get so angry at his supposed best friend for telling him something that's obvious to anyone?
BECAUSE CAGALLI WAS CRYING DAMMIT! HOW COULD ATHRUN SAY THOSE KINDS OF THINGS WHEN SHE'S HURTING SO MUCH!

I personally think Kira's a lot more fucked up than the show would have you believe. A lot more.

>>13877621
>CAGALLI WAS CRYING

It's a metaphor, like Aida Rayhunton's "THE WORLD IS NOT SQUARE" or Lupe Cineau's "SLEEP IN MY BREASTS", anon

Cagalli is ORB. When Cagalli weeps, ORB is bleeding.

The point is monarchies are stupid

>>13875835
I liked him in Seed for the first half. Once he woke up in Lacus's garden he became a pretty weird character and I lost track of what the writers were trying to do with him.

>>13877715

He became Spacechrist and his emotions were replaced with RESOLVE.

>>13875835
I'm perfectly okay with Kira as a character in Seed. I don't feel like he's "too perfect" or anything in that show at all.

Destiny Kira on the other hand is a completely different matter. He's so overbearing it's basically character assassination.

>>13877047
Oh bullshit. ZAFT wouldn't have stopped Djibril's escape even if Kira and Co. weren't there. Luna had a clear shot at him and just fucking can't hit for shit and no one else (supposedly) competent bothered trying to disengage to get him.

How much of Destiny could have been avoided if Athrun was capable of properly communicating?

>>13877715
It's time you realized the truth. That Kira is a clone.

>>13877766
In the manga, it's Kira and Shinn who miss.

Djibril's shuttle's pilot is the greatest in all of CE.

>>13877774
What manga? the edge?

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>>13877779
...The SEED Destiny manga?

What else would I be talking about?

>>13877785
that other manga which was the basis for Special Edition.

>>13877774
Wow, that scene actually sounds way better, competence in shooting aside.

>>13877798

If I remember right, it's nothing to do with shooting competence, they're just too far away. Shinn has to try and hit it with Destiny's heavy cannon and Kira can't hit it with Strike Freedom's combined sniper rifle thing (the one that never got used in the series)

Granted it's not meant to be "lol Luna can't aim" in the series either. She's just stuck with the traditional heavy weapons mobile suits can't be allowed to hit things with their superguns because they're too powerful role all series.

>>13877842
...wasn't she shooting Force Impulse's basic beam rifle at it? Or did they change that up in the remasters?

>>13877883

Probably me forgetting. I haven't watched it in years.

I just remember the version in The Edge is them trying and failing to shoot it with their long range/heavy weapons

>>13877842
Wait so Kira can hit like 10 mobile suits at once with pin point accuracy so he only hits their limbs, but he can't hit a ship?

The fuck?

>>13877944
Kira doesn't actually know how to use the Freedom. Someone set it up to auto-lock on to limbs and just left Kira to button-mash his way through the series and he never realised.

>>13874652
I don't know what you're talking about Destiny is a great 7 episode OVA. Wierd number though.

>>13875842
>"enhanced spatial awareness" (whatever the fuck that means)

It means they git gud. They keep track of themselves, and remotely controlled weapons platforms, and handle the firing solutions and angles themselves, because as we all know, the EA's ability to code is on par with a bunch of monkies on typewriters, so it's up to the pilot to keep track of everything and control each individual gunbarrel, when to fire, etc. Without it being simplified into "I think it and it happens". Real time. While being shot at. Mu is underrated as fuck.

>>13877785
Are the manga adaptations of Seed and Seed Destiny better or worse compared to the anime?

>>13877785
...What is it with Shinn holding guns in artwork?

Even in fan-art where he's at a wedding or something, he still has a gun in his hand.

>>13875998
He's always a hack. It's just he got more freedom once Zero started.

>>13877767

I think all that would have happened was Athrun would have left Zaft that much earlier if he could.

>>13877440
>Kira does it when enraged and it's a "fuck yeah. You show him Kira!" moment.

It really wasn't. They shaded it so Kira looked outright sinister there they played evil music and Kira himself thinking he shouldn't have done it the next episode.

>But when Shinn does it when Athrun is suspected of treason, it's treated as him crossing some line.

Well for one the show makes it clear Durandal is just trying to get rid of him and Athrun didn't actually commit any treason. Even if Athrun did make himself look very unreliable they have the scene with Durandal going Well we can frame with these pics and Rey saying he's outlived his usefulness and he'll pay for not supporting Gil.

And for two Shinn was excessive bloodthirsty psychotically yelling that Athrun sucks and everything is his fault as he goes to overkill the already defeated crashing Gouf despite Athrun begging him for mercy. And despite the fact that Shinn could have easily taken him alive if he so choose but gave him to Rey insistance that they execute him right there.

He did pretty much cross the line there. That's basically when he graduates to being willing to kill anyone and everyone on Durandal's word alone, even people he's friends with.

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>>13877747
>I'm perfectly okay with Kira as a character in Seed. I don't feel like he's "too perfect" or anything in that show at all. Destiny Kira on the other hand is a completely different matter. He's so overbearing it's basically character assassination.
Bullshit. Most of Kira's shit characterization has its origin in SEED proper. Destiny just magnified them.

Even if you exclude Destiny entirely, Kira scores beyond 50 points in this test: http://marysuelitmustest.yolasite.com/

>>13879310
SEED goes full retard with him once he gets into the Freedom.

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>>13879374
He was underway by being a massive arrogant dickhead throughout the series. And the worst part is that there isn't any comeuppance for this behavior.

The closest there's to an "apology" (and I'm using this term liberally) is him having a conversation with Sai implying that, while there are things that Kira is good at and Sai is bad, there are things Sai is good at and Kira isn't.
As I've argued before in this thread, one of the main deficiencies in SEED's writing is that Fukuda is convinced that telling is the same as showing. What makes this case even worse is that there isn't even a glimpse of what Sai may be "good at" in the slightest. He's just a useless kid (whose sole reason for being in the series is to create drama with Fllay), whereas Kira waltzes around in the battlefield as the only Special Snowflake powerful enough to use's Freedom aimbot.

>>13879310
>Bullshit. Most of Kira's shit characterization has its origin in SEED proper. Destiny just magnified them.

And SRW Z took the time to examine the character, explain the shortcomings of his actions, and gave him character growth to become a better person. And Fukuda hates the changes to the story.

>>13879497
Regardless of Fukuda being an imbecile, SRW is nothing more than glorified fanfiction.

>>13879464
>What makes this case even worse is that there isn't even a glimpse of what Sai may be "good at" in the slightest
Untrue, during a lot of the first half you can see Sai being a solid support to his friends, the one thing Kira always utterly failed at. Sai is a decent, balanced human, Kira isn't and just can't.

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>>13879578
>Untrue, during a lot of the first half you can see Sai being a solid support to his friends,
Meaning, acting as a Greek chorus in the handful of scenes the series had with those characters interacting together.
Also, "talent" in this case means something concrete, not an abstract human quality.

>the one thing Kira always utterly failed at.
That street runs both ways. That's why I call those characters "Kira's 'so-called friends'", since you never see them interacting with Kira in a friendly manner after Heliopolis, or even being grateful towards him. And then the stupid fuck puts his ass in the line of fire to PROTECT them?

>Sai is a decent, balanced human, Kira isn't and just can't.
As >>13879464 demonstrates, Kira is an arrogant, self-righteous übermensch asshole. Even the blandest of characters has more humanity than he does.
Another thing: Kira fails to be a decent person in portrayal. In-universe, however, he's the nicest, most friendly and compassionate person in existence.

>>13874318
SEED is pretty good, but goes full retard when Kira gets the Freedom (and the new filler villains show up).
The same goes for Kira as a character.
Destiny is irredeemable shit, only watchable for Assrun's hilarious harem antics, Shinn getting BTFO, Luna until her character assassination around episode 38, and Durandal's suave voice.
The main reason SEED is hated, is because of the bad aftertaste DESTINY left.
The OP/ED/OST for both are fucking god tier.

>>13879689
>The main reason SEED is hated, is because of the bad aftertaste DESTINY left.
For how long are you going to post this crap? Even if Destiny never had appeared, SEED would still be the exact same turd it has always been.

>The OP/ED/OST for both are fucking god tier.
More bullshit. SEED's OST is overloaded with brass and synth, although it got to a nice equilibrium in Destiny. Only a handful of the OPs and EDs are any good, and Destiny had the worst OP in the history of anything with fucking Wings of Words.

>>13879643
>That street runs both ways
Kira can't communicate properly with anyone, being Assram, Fllay or his "friends".
>the stupid fuck puts his ass in the line of fire to PROTECT them?
There's a reason with call him Jesus Yamato.

>>13879689
>Durandal's suave voice
Fukuda trying to bait UC fans by getting Ikeda onboard.

I keep hearing SEED's original trailer looked like nothing to the actual show. As in, the animation was completely top tier and seemed to promise something very different from what we actually got.

But I haven't been able to find said trailer. Is it just more rumor bullshit, or is it just one of those really old videos that are really hard to find?

>>13874318
why can't you guys just let go this show? everyday one has to complain about it
it's been 10 fuckin years or more

>>13879754
Hey, if you don't like these threads, just don't post and go away.

>>13879754
The curse of Fukuda will last forever.

>>13879754
Some people just want to remind the rest of this board why they hate this (and Destiny) so much. Joke's on them cause it's because of their butturt that I actually got interested to watch it for myself, just to see how hard their overreaction is.

SPOILER It's not as bad as they make it out to be

>>13877122
What? What is the second image down from the bottom?
I thought Kira only fucked Fllay

>>13878878
Because Shinn is the realest OG and one of thr few gundam pilots trained in using firearms.
I wish we could've seen him in action out of the cockpit Gundam tends to lack fights outside of the MS

>>13879754

10 years and they are the most active threads, even when there's a Gundam currently airing.

/m/'s hateboner with SEED is the greatest love story ever told.

>>13879754
Eh
I guess it's like this board's Star Wars prequels
Everyone was looking forward to it.
What we got was a beast that wasn't any good, but especially unique in how it turned out. Even now, there are so many different ways to discuss WHAT exactly went so wrong.

Even though I left places like Gamefaqs to stop arguing about it, even I can't fully ignore the allure of spinning tales about what's wrong with this series every now and then.
>>13879506
>SRW is nothing more than glorified fanfiction.

You'll get no argument on that end, but it goes to show that There's Something Wrong Here if the writers go out of their way to portray the characters in a different light than in the series and even the "main character" is saying he likes that version better

>>13880018
>You'll get no argument on that end, but it goes to show that There's Something Wrong Here if the writers go out of their way to portray the characters in a different light than in the series and even the "main character" is saying he likes that version better

Not to mention, Banpresto and Sunrise are both owned by Bandai, who not only funded the game but approved of the changes made. It may be glorified fanfiction, but it's officially endorsed fanfiction.

>>13879708
Worse than 00 OP3, even?

>>13879838
>>13879979
>>13880018
>b-but I hate Kira!
jesus fuck, whoever keeps making these threads is pathetic

>>13880114
Who said anything about me hating Kira?
Shit, I like Strike Freedom Gundam, unlike most people.

>>13880131
Congrats on the shit taste?

>>13880096

Yes.

>>13880096
Christ, this one was fucking shit. Actually it was a good summary of what to expect from the show.

>>13880096
>Worse than 00 OP3, even?
Absolutely.

I wonder: how much of a loss would it be for a studio to make an anime WITHOUT OPs or EDs? No, not even stock/library music: no credits at all, just a blank title screen at the start of each episode.

>>13880255
>no credits at all
That's really not a fair move for the staff.

>>13880226

Nicol was worth 10 Tolles.

>>13880255

Shin Sekai Yori didn't have an OP but it did have an ED with credits.

>>13880269
Fuck them.
They literally don't matter.

>>13880229
Those are some very stain resistant seats, color me impressed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7jAk-Ud9eM

Bleh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6PzlnjAPqQ

First OP and still the best one SEED managed to shit up.

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>>13880285

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>>13880269
Speaking of OPs, I was watching A/Z's first one (fuck you, it was terrific) and it got me thinking about that idea earlier in the thread about making the Sleipnir a twin-seater and have Inaho in the back-seat planning stuff, while a different character does the actual piloting (>>13876094/>>13876798/>>13876898/>>13876983).
Y'know what would be cool? Inaho is the permanent fixture on the Sleipnir as co-pilot, while the actual pilots change depending on the situation. That could also be his Achilles' heel: cannot pilot a mecha for shit if/when a pilot gets injured. This would create a fantastic dynamic for the characters and serve as something like the pack-swapping of SEED/Build Fighters/Reconquista, except with people.

>>13880291
It always astounds me Fukuda's ability to spoil his own show with his openings.

>>13880322
That all sounds fucking terrible and your tastes is shit.

>>13880322
I really can't say I'm any interested in fixing AZ or keeping Inaho around at all.

>>13880418
>That all sounds fucking terrible
It's better than the shit sandwich we actually got.

>>13880096
I didn't hate 00 OP 3. What was so bad about it?

>>13880578
It purely and simply sucked, uninspired editing, insipid visuals, lame song.

>>13880322
Most of A/Z's OST didn't do it for me. Lot of lifeless interstitials.

Dat aLIEz tho.

>>13879968

It's fanart. Erotic fanart but fanart.

>>13879578
This. Sai was there for his friends. The show should have tried to show Kira at least awkwardly trying to be there for them so him risking his life for them made more sense though.

>>13880291
What caused IBO be such a failure compared to these two? In sales/popularity.

>>13880392

To be fair it's not just him. Anime OPs almost always spoil stuff.

>>13880255

That's illegal. You HAVE to credit all the people that work on the show or else you've got lawsuit problems coming.

>>13882077
Maybe you can skip the OP, but leave a plain ED. That way, you save yourself legal problems. Or just dump all the credits in the final episode of the series.

>>13882071
Fukuda has spoilers in its OP for stuff that happens so much later a new OP or two already replaced it.

>>13882077
End credits you double nigger.

Toonami did it all the time with truncated intros, hell their Big O was opened by what might as well have been an Adult Swim bump card.

>>13879708
Oh hey "I still bitch about this show under the pretxt of it having potential while insisting every single individual element is terrible" autist.

Even Wings of Words is better than most fucking ear raping 2010s Gundam OPs, not even bringing up "we want the Frozen audience" random clip collection, the actual worst anime OP ever.

>>13882574
>we want the Frozen audience
Wait what

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>>13882574
>A fucking SEEDfag is complaining about a clipshow opening

>>13882574
Last SEED thread had an anon literally watching it and came to the conclusion that it was terrible before hitting Destiny.
>we want the Frozen audience
The only connection they have is the same singer

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>>13881525
>Sai doesn't appear in GSD

>>13882574
> having potential while insisting every single individual element is terrible
Ever heard of the term "the whole is more than the sum of its parts"? I'd guess you haven't, since you resort to imbecilic insults such as "autist".

>Even Wings of Words is better than most fucking ear raping 2010s Gundam OPs,
Wings of Words is a song that does not have any fucking place whatsoever in an anime. Even Fukuda had an iota of good taste and changed it for Vestige in the HD Upscale.

>not even bringing up "we want the Frozen audience" random clip collection,
What in the name of fuck are you talking about? 00 is from 2007/2008. Frozen came out in 2013.

>the actual worst anime OP ever.
No, that would be Full Metal Panic's. God, that shit is terrible...

>>13882796
He moved on.
Good for him.

>>13883162
Considering that the Cosmic Era is all GRIMDARK DESTRUCTION OF EVERYTHING (or at least that's how it is interpreted around here), I'd probably guess that the poor fuck is long dead.

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>>13874318
They are all looking in different directions...

>>13879464

What a good friend.

>>13880229

Where are the Skeletons?

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>>13883605

>>13883605

How can they breathe?

>>13874319
>Why does Andy magically survives even though all he does is sit in a chair?
IRL he was so popular they brought him back.

>>13875993
>Gundam's are just instant win machines in CE
By a certain point though, SEED's Gundams became obsolete. The 105 Daggers were everything the Strike was & more.(Minus PS Armor but in a time where everyone & everyone's mom has lasers, that might actually be seen as a good thing because less energy usage.) Yzak & Deirka gave up their Gundams for Zakus (somewhere in the colonies, Char is laughing. In fact, the one time Kira piloted the Strike Rouge in Destiny he got his ass wooped.

>>13877009
>I'd buy that for any other protagonist vessel in the franchise, except the Archangel by virtue of its sheer firepower.
Radar rule makes all the firepower go mostly to waste, though.
Neutron Jammers are fucking retarded, by the way.

>>13877181
>Also Kira protects his enemies as well
Sure did a good job protecting Stella

>>13883892
>Radar rule makes all the firepower go mostly to waste, though.
That works for both sides. If MS can only engage enemies visually, then the Archangel can compute firing solutions based on heading. Also, the Archangel has weapons that are more powerful than any MS.

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>>13874318
SEED isn't great but it isn't terrible. I found it mildly entertaining despite the quality being super mixed and getting extremely silly in the final 13 episodes. I found it to at least be more consistently entertaining than Wing.

Granted, after watching Destiny and having a few years to think about it I don't rank it too highly. It's a watchable show that hasn't gotten better with age.

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>>13884023
> I found it to at least be more consistently entertaining than Wing.
I personally rank Wing above SEED for a number of reasons:
1) characters being actually entertaining, instead of being soap-opera melodrama all the fucking time.
2) Mechanical and character designs are vastly superior from SEED. Leo is still the best Zaku-equivalent in the franchise.
3) despite stock footage in both, the traditional animation used in Wing has endured the test of time a lot better than SEED's digital ink-paint. Also, Wing had less instances of atrocious QUALITY.

>>13884032
While I'd debate on whether the Wing cast was any less soap opera a lot of times than SEED, I'll agree that the designs and the traditional animation has certainly held up better.
But I do feel that SEED's early 2000's use of bright pastel colors works for what the show was probably going for with looking fresh and new for a young audience. It's gaudy, but it worked with the show's vibe.

>Mechanical and character designs are vastly superior from SEED.
I'll give you this one. Even on the off animation days they had more charm than Hirai's noseless, melty-faced mannequin people and Okawara's rushed work to appease Bandai. Though there are a handful of C.E. suits I like, A.C. had Katoki there and he totally nailed it with the work he did.

>>13874318
Its mediocre to awful. Destiny just makes it all feel so much worse though.

>>13877223
>>13877190
Just re-watched Code Geass recently and this is absolutely true. I'd love to see more mecha anime where the main character doesn't pilot anything or is a shitty pilot, or the typical mecha protagonist is an antagonist instead. The pit of mecha cliches is too deep, and SEED/A.Z dove headfirst into it IMO.

I think IBO would be greatly improved by balancing out Orga/Mika in this regard. Let's see some more crazy schemes and plans that show how reliant they are on each other and their opposing skill sets. The last three episodes was mostly Mika doing all the work with "she's amazing omg" shoehorned in.

>>13877958
That makes some sense. When he was in the strike we constantly see him tinkering with it but he never does anything with the freedom.

>>13883758
How does a bird fly through space?

>>13874332

You're pretty much spot on regardless. SEED was mediocre but not totally offensive.

Destiny is where your opinion might change. Also Nicol was 15, he loved to play the piano.

Some of the mech designs were sex, though. The GAT series were sex.

>>13885335
/thread

>>13884974
This.

Hell some parts of SEED before episode 32 are actually decent tier.

>>13884032
Wing is stupid but it is entertaining and fun at the very least. It's like a 90s Code Geass. I put it in the middle tier of gundam shows for that reason.

>>13885410
>It's like a 90s Code Geass

Maybe it's been too long since I've seen either show, but I fail to recall any similarities.

>>13885417
>Geass
>Wing
Only real similarity is they're both rather campy. Not G levels, but above average camp for a Gundam.

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>>13885295
>When he was in the strike we constantly see him tinkering with it but he never does anything with the freedom.
That's because Kira has zero talent or skill as a pilot. He's a programmer and approaches the Strike as such. If you remove Kira's ability to tinker with the machine, he's dead meat.
Freedom, meanwhile, fights and pilots on its own as >>13877958 mentioned.

>>13887321

Freedom doesn't need tinkering because it was programmed properly from default. Strike meanwhile needed constant adjustments because in CE the OS is a critical part of the suit and if it isn't calibrated properly all the piloting skill in the world won't make the suit do what you want.

Everyone in Seed relies on their OS like that, up to Shinn Cruset and Athrun.

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OP here, 14 episodes into Destiny. It's mostly uninteresting, the action is nothing but uninspired beamspam with Shinn going berserk being the only decent thing so far. Speaking of Shinn, without his place in the OP/ED you'd never guess he's the MC considering his little screentime, most of it spent being angry at people with his sidekicks being barely background noise. I take it this show can get more stupid than that marriage abortion subplot, obviously nothing can happen unless whiteknight Kira approved it. Also did Fukuda just magically resurrect Mu only to turn him into a Char clone?

>>13887552
>the action is nothing but uninspired beamspam with Shinn going berserk being the only decent thing so far.

And that's about all your gonna get.

>>13887579
It wouldn't be so bad if the grunts didn't exist just to stand still and get annihilated.

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>>13877223
>Geass had some well written characters.

>>13887510
>Everyone in Seed relies on their OS like that, up to Shinn Cruset and Athrun.
False. Just because there's a bullshit G.U.N.D.A.M. OS in every, well, "Gundam"-type Mobile Suit, it doesn't mean that the pilots totally depend on it. Naturals like Rau and Rey (both clones of Al Da Flaga, a Natural himself), could pilot grunts at the ace level without depending on some super-special tweaked OS to do so.
The thing with the Strike was a one-off thing that Kira (and the ZAFT red-coats too) had to modify to make it combat-worthy. The only mention of a Natural-use OS is with the M1s.
Apparently, there was no such handicap with the Strike Daggers, since there's no mention of any OS issues with them, nor that the Earth Alliance received Kira's data at any point whatsoever.

>>13887791
http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/GAT-01_Strike_Dagger

Says its equipped with a "Natural-use OS"

>>13887849
And Gundam Wikia (The Home Of Fandom™) is an utterly unreliable source. You should know that.

>>13887862
Still a much better source than a random comment on 4chan.

>>13887867
What random comment? What I said is that the series itself never mentions that the Strike Dagger has any sort of "special Natural OS" in the way the M1 and Strike/Rouge had.

And, again, you have Rau and Rey piloting ZAFT's mobile suits without a hiccup.

>>13887877
Thats the thing, if we're talking about sources for information on the show, no one has one.

>>13887791

There's nothing super special about Gundam OS's compared to grunt OS's. The OS's however do need to actually be complete for anyone to pilot worth a damn. Even Rau with all his skill couldn't make the incomplete GAT-X series move past a sluggish crawl until they had the Zaft techs rewrite them to make them usable. Athrun says when they're working on Aegis there's no way he could pilot it very well as the OS was.

Rau and Rey were aces with Zaft grunts that had complete OS's. Without the OS the machine will not work, no matter how skilled you are.

It's never explained how the Dagger's OS's work, but their background material does mention the EA was able to eventually work out an OS for all it's units which the Dagger's and every other EA unit through Destiny runs off of without the Strike's data.

I don't know where all this Kira is only good because he can reprogram the OS to cheat bullshit comes with because all he does is fix things that should have been preprogammed to start with but weren't because it was incomplete.

>>13874318
That is actually a normal-sized gundam head.

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>>13887979
>I don't know where all this Kira is only good because he can reprogram the OS to cheat bullshit comes with because all he does is fix things that should have been preprogammed to start with but weren't because it was incomplete.
It comes from the fact that, in the end, it's the machine doing things for the pilot. Rather than having Kira learning to make due and adapt to the sand (ie. piloting), he just finds a workaround.

You can make a much bigger interpretation: you really don't need any piloting skill at all in the Cosmic Era. Since software is so damn important, the machine does all the work for you. Call it "MS piloting on rails".
You know why people keep bringing back Cyber Formula to SEED discussions (apart from the fact that Fukuda directed both)? Because it's the same concept.

Cyber Formula:
>autonomous driving cars in the future
>company creates super-intelligent AI system and is placed in a car, which competitors try to steal
>kid stumbles with the super car, escapes with it and, since the biometrics get locked to him, he's the only one who can drive it
SEED's initial premise around Kira and the OS thing is a tweak of this same concept.

>>13888018
>piloting is only how well you operate the control surfaces
I can't believe you're this stupid. I guess tactics matter for fuck all then.

>>13888018
So you think that UC pilots manually rotate the limbs? Do you have any idea how stupid that is?

>>13888022
This being Gundam after all, having more firepower than the enemy is far more important than any tactics. Even the stupidest people can prevail over trained ace tacticians, as the endless parade of "retarded girls in death machines" has proved over and over.

>>13888031
>So you think that UC pilots manually rotate the limbs?
UC units have always had levers and pedals, serving as manually-controlled abstractions for the limbs.

Also, isn't that what the Psycommu does, in simple terms? A combined "attitude/targeting system" powered by bullshit Newtype magic?

>>13888045
It seems to be mostly automated. In that 08th MS Team short the Ez-8 walked alongside the Ground Gundam while Shiro was reading a map. His hands weren't even on the sticks.

Unless it has a cruise control function

>>13887656
Some of the Geass characters but not all. Just like Gundam, there's gaps in the cast quality.

>>13888055
Amuro programmed his machine to walk down a hallway and then shoot up to defeat Char's Zeong.

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SEED is generally just okay, but Kira becomes bullshit when he goes Jesus and revives in Lacus' garden. Flay and Zaft were the best things abut SEED

Destiny keeps Kira bullshit the whole way though, but I actually really liked that edgy little shit Shinn. He, the Minerva crew,and the rest Destiny ZAFT are the things that made Destiny bearable for me. Even Athrun was decent while he was in Zaft. Kira, everyone siding with Kira, and everyone that sides with Kira later all become shit the moment they do.

Overall, I would rate both SEED and Destiny a 6/10. Kira and Lacus are the worst parts of each and ZAFT is the best part of each. Neither of them are particularly well written. At least they are kinda mindlessly fun to watch,

>>13891102
Y'know what would be a great challenge for /m/? Discussing and arguing about SEED's many flaws without bringing Destiny to the discussion. Not even once.

I want to dispel the myth that "Destiny retroactively ruined SEED" once and for all. SEED was crap in and on itself.

>>13893208
I'd agree here, the starting point of the problems were indeed in SEED especially in its second half, but it's in Destiny that those problems are magnified.

I'd concede that SEED wasn't well planned too, because the first half was probably a good way to portray the horrors of war, albeit the drama, but you see that War really did turn both Kira and Athrun into monsters. It's the second half that completely destroyed everything. In my opinion, It's supposed to be the EA that needed to have the neutrals, Most of the Eurasian cause against PLANT was because Siegel fucking caused a power crisis on earth that killed more than what Blue cosmos did on Bloody Valentine. In fact, the Alliance was formed because of April Fools, yet we are to believe that the AF was steering the war because MUH INFERIORITY COMPLEX.
there were too many subplots within the Alliance that wasn't explored in detail, all the worldbuilding made was wasted by Fukuda and his Black and White World

>>13893470
>all the worldbuilding made was wasted by Fukuda and his Black and White World
That's what happens when you leave a Nagahama fanboy doing Gundam. And yes, I know that Tomino did produce Voltes V, but Gundam was his pet project: an explicit subversion of all those silly robot shows he had worked on until then. Under this logic, Fukuda's approach in SEED was a regression to the past that the original 0079 attempted to transcend from.