Hand-drawn mecha or 3D - what do you prefer?

I cannot even conceive of the type of pleb who would prefer 3D

Excuse my ignorance but what is OPs pic from?

Either of them, as long as its well-done.

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>>13581093
Heavy Object

>>13581095
Thanks good sir.

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>>13581096
I recommend the manga because it's better than the anime

>>13581084
what kind of question is this baka-desu-senpai. Granted 3D/CGI isn't the heinous sin a lot make it out to be but 2D always retains a sense of fluidity and personality that 3D/CGI isn't/not yet able to match.

That's a big ball

>>13581097
Unless it does something new to the plot that isn't saying much

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>>13581101
>3D/CGI isn't/not yet able to match.
It's too bad I don't have Fafner webms on hand.

>>13581084
2D though there are some exceptions

>TE

i don't hate 3D i still prefer 2D

fuck you 2Dfags but mostly, fuck you 3Dfags

>>13581097
I always read the manga first, but thanks for the suggestion of course. Began reading it even before I saw your post.Pretty cool so far.

>>13581084
Hand drawn everything. Fuck cgi with a baseball bat wrapped in razor wire.

>>13581084
Hand drawn 11/10 times. 3DCG is 3DPD

>>13581119
It undoubtedly has its own charm to it. For better or for worse I enjoyed Aldnoah Zero's CGI for what its worth. I guess personally 3D/CGI just appears a little sterile when juxtaposed against 2D animation.

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Can you get this level of detail with hand draw?

>>13581084
That really depends. If you're comparing "not-exactly-stellar-quality 2D" like IBO to high quality 3D mecha like Fafner I would choose Fafner hands down, but if the one on the other side is great 2D animated mecha like a Bones mecha or Greco then probably 2D.

If you still prefer 2d, I implore you to see Yukikaze.

2d wouldn't fit that OVA in the slightest.

>>13581171

Either:

>pay the animators banana money from the office printer and force them to clock 18 hours, 7 days a week,

or

>release 1 standard-timed episode every 6 months.

>>13581199
or

>outsource to Orange and pay them a presumably reasonable amount

this seems like the popular option lately given how many works they are in.

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At least we're getting decent CG more often than not these days, when they aren't just outsourcing to Orange.

>>13581119
woah, what anime is this?

>>13581339
Comet Lucifer, currently airing. The show is bad, the animation is by Orange so that's pretty much all it has going for it.

>>13581084
I'd rather just have decent deigns in the first place

>>13581087
capeshit movie lovers

>>13581206
>hand drawn

>>13581341
why its bad? typical anime stuff? (moe shit, harem shit, echi shit) or what is it?

>>13581427
It's just poorly written. The characters are bland and uninteresting, the plot as far as I watched was bad and meandering, and it just wasn't entertaining to watch at all.

>>13581084
It depends on how well the 3D is done, but generally, at this point in time, 3D just doesn't blend too well with traditional animation. So I'm sticking with 100% animation. Maybe in 10 years 3D might win me over, I mean special effects get better every year, but as of right now it doesn't look like it.

>>13581490
I also dislike how fluid 3D animation is when compared to 2D, especially anime. Like the anime is kind of janky as it is, with it being animated on the 3's in most cases. Then you throw in some CGI mech that's obviously some scaled down 60fps animation and it just looks out of place to me.

>>13581490
>3D just doesn't blend too well with traditional animation.

Personally I'm of the school of thought that because it's so jarring with traditional, the best way to approach CGI is to intentionally invoke the conspicuousness of it as an artistic choice.

Use it for things that are supposed to be abnormal, maybe even unsettling in some way to the viewer, whether it be for the mildly implausible or the absolutely eldritch.

It's a waste to try and imitate traditional animation with it.

>>13581084
Important scenes should be hand drawn, because properly made hand drawings look the best.

Everything else might as well be CG. It's gonna look like shit anyways, so CG will at least keep the proportions right and reduce QUALITY.

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I'm fine with both.
2D animation obviously looks good, but only if you put a high budget into it.
3D animation can have troubles with blending in, but it has the potential for dynamic scenes nobody will even try producing in 2D. In addition, even mediocre 3D is safe from QUALITY.
I'm not going to pick one option if I can pick both.

>>13581872
>it has the potential for dynamic scenes nobody will even try producing in 2D
They used to, but then CGI became cheap

>>13581094
But the fact is no 3D animation has reached the level of quality of the very best 2D animation

>>13581119
Looks like crap compared to any high budget 80's anime, but I do admit that is much better than a low budget 2D scene

>>13581896
>high budget 80's anime
Well, those aren't ever going to happen again, so they're not a realistic standard to hold anything to.

>>13581872
>drawing in mesas as part of your skybox
>ground is all texture no geometry

At least there appeared to be some parallax in the scenery. Orange really needs to up its scenery game.

>>13581880
>CGI
>cheap
Where do you idiots come from

>>13581951
It's cheaper than drawing tens of thousands of individual drawings.

>>13581964
Good thing doing so is both cheaper than you think and not how its done anymore.

>>13581964
Are you familiar with the costs involved in rendering CGI?

Particularly with regards to energy consumption?

>>13581896
What modern airing 2D TV anime looks as good as a high budget 80s anime?

>>13581972
>not how its done anymore.
That's how you do proper 2D animation, and nothing will ever change that. The shortcuts used today are just cost-cutting measures to get something made with the tiny budgets they're given.

>>13581084
Is that the Technodrome ?

>>13581543
Yeah, that's why I don't give Reideen flak for its pretty piss CG - it's all meant to be horribly alien, so it looking out of place amongst the normal animation isn't as big a deal and since everything is so slow the usual animation niggles don't show. Everything else there...

>>13581880
>They used to, but then CGI became cheap

They still have the POTENTIAL, it's just that it's very often unrealized.

>>13581892
Yes, because the OVA boom has been dead for twenty plus years now.

>>13581896
>Looks like crap compared to any high budget 80's anime

The thing about that is, most of those really good looking things were low episode count OVAs, and great animation in a 3 Episode OVA is easier than good animation in a 13/26+ episode show.

But I think you know that.

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>>13581543
>intentionally invoke the conspicuousness of it as an artistic choice.
I like this approach, but sometimes it goes overboard and hurts my eyes.

>>13581084
>Heavy Object
>mecha
c'mon

>>13582003
Faf and CGI were definitely a match made in Heaven (and Earth).

>>13581084
both are shit compared to acrylic on canvas. why bother?

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>>13582017
Obviously Studio Orange doing the CG work helps, but the Fafner designs themselves just seem to translate better to 3D than 2D in all honesty.

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>>13581084
2D>3D always no mater what

>>13581427
Directed by the guy who helmed both Infinite Stratos seasons. That should give you a general idea.

>>13582057
Only person in this thread with any taste at all.

2D all the way
I'm trying to figure out how to automate dynamic 2d like distortions when animating a 3d object atm

>>13581084
This thread gives me the oddest feeling of déjà vu

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>>13582057
>acrylics
>not oil
shit taste fampai

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>>13582232

>>13581119
>It's too bad I don't have Fafner webms on hand.
Why is that? You're not gonna prove him wrong with Fafner.

>>13582466
>You're not gonna prove someone that doesn't like [thing] wrong with [thing].
Fafner's CG is top tier though.

>>13581872
But why are they murdering Symbiotic Titan?

>>13582492
It's ok but has a looooong way to go before I'd call it top tier.

Are my standards unreasonable? Perhaps, but the same can be said of all animation connoisseurs here.

>>13582505
Its CG is tops though. Whether or not you think the animation as a whole is, but Orange is on the bleeding edge of producing good CG.

Except Akito, but that's got more to do with the show's director than it does Orange.

>>13582518
>as a whole is
*is a whole different matter
I won't disagree that the best 2d > the best 3d either.

>>13582505
As shown by the fact that you call yourselves connoisseurs like as if though you have any actual notable tastes or opinions and don't just have a head full of hot air. It's people like you that make me never want to learn about animation related stuff out of fear I'll become as stuck up and annoying as you.

>>13582534
Not him, and I actually like Orange, but you sound kinda pathetic whining to a blowhard.

>>13582518
I still think Orange is stuck in the shadow of old Gonzo.

Orange is technically competent, and they have yet to suffer from the dated CGI look like Gonzo does for kinda everything they've done besides Yukikaze (and even then old shit like Blue Submarine 6 has a sort of charm to its dated CGI), but until they do something about their skybox problem I really can't say it's good.

Just functional.

To tie it back to Gonzo, it's like how that studio had this occasional habit of handling background people as CGI. Eventually they learned how to cover it up better, and I'm waiting on Orange to do a similar thing with their scenery during their DYNAMIC ORANGE SETPIECE ACTION scenes. Breathe some life into those backgrounds, shit feels really flat and makes it look like the mechs are just fighting in an imaginary dimension separate from the main show.

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Honestly just depends on the quality of the animation Garo isn't quite a mecha but it's close enough and the CG looks good

>>13582534
Please I was being facetious.

Rarely ever take what people say about animation here at face value, whether it be praise or criticism. There's a lot of bullshit that gets thrown around.

>tfw people dont realise/ignore that parts of that opening of patlabor 2 are rotoscoped cg

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>>13582569
It's not "their Skybox problem" its the studios they work with who are responsible for that. Orange is just an animating group, and occasional choreographer. They get paid to do what they're asked.

I also disagree with the skybox complaint even being a complaint because they vary so much from show to show. Furthermore Fafner, Buddy Complex, and MJP all do a very nice job of editing cuts of their pilots in their cockpits which is a goof way to tie it all together. Pic related is a nice example.

>handling background people as CGI
fucking terrible practice and should never be approved.

In regards to the breathing life into backgrounds, that's comically subjective. You could say the same thing about any series no matter how old that takes place in space.
>>13582586
>There are people that defend the Thunderbolt trailer as fully hand drawn

>>13582639
It's really distracting in their dynamic shots, though, and I can finger them for sticking to skyboxes when it's their go to way of handling a dynamic scene if that's what the storyboards call for.

It's about as distracting as floppy dildo people are in Gonzo works (which wouldn't be a problem if they didn't combine the lack of detail seen in distant stuff drawn by hand with the uncanny smoothness of high-framerate animation. Blue Sub 6 has it really bad in the first episode with those kinds of floppy dildo people.)

And it's about as distracting as whenever you have a shot in an anime where the object of focus is dead center in the screen and the camera is glued onto it so it looks like everything but the focus object is moving around.

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>>13582580
Garo's CGI was the goddamn best.

Shame about the second season though.

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>>13581084
Handdrawn by good animators with a budget is always superior anon.

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>>13582722
Eh, it's not great but it's grown on me. Helps that the recent episodes have been way better than the first couple

>>13582742
>Sequel never ;_;

>>13582749
Well we could do a kickstarter to save anime. I have 20 euro left until my next paycheck.

>>13582518
I will never understand what's the supposed problem you have with the CG in Akito since I've been perfectly satisfied with it since 2012 to date.

>>13581892
Please, why don't you watch Fafner Exodus, even the grunts are detailed to hell or even Comet Lucifer the grunts are still all super detailed and move more naturally than damn nearly every mecha show

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Yes, you could spend the entire PIB of a small country into 26 episodes animated by Satoshi Urushihara or a genetically enhanced Otaking 2.0.
... or you could learn to use modern technology and achieve BETTER.

The error is to believe that 3D and CG isn't hand-drawn anymore. The computer is just another tools like pencils, making an animator just as much of an artist.

In the past the ultimate achievement was to emulate 3D using paper-drawn character and scenery into a complex machine capable of photographing pictures and translating them physically in 3D until you have enough to display at the rate of 12-24 frames per seconds.

It was frigging hard and now we can go beyond that with tools that would have been a 70s artist wet dream.
Do you know why anime hair have always been geometrical and flashy ? That's because studio didn't have infinite shade of color, or computer macro that allow you to ANIMATE individual hair at 24 frame per second.

>>13586128
>ANIMATE individual hair at 24 frame per second.
>it's a GoHands post

In theory I have nothing against CG. However in anime the CG almost always looks like absolute garbage.

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Suits

>>13586483
That's highly subjective. On the one hand, you have the suits that they really put a lot of effort into, like Go-Busters. But on the other hand you also have lazy-ass clusterfuck shit like Shinkenger and ToQger.

>>13586483
Ace is great but I really felt that being a suit with a fleshbag inside held the design back from looking as good as it should've in-show.

At times I felt it should've been a marionette prop, or even be a robotic skeleton with the costume built around it, really anything but a human except for the occasional stunt shot.

I like how Shirobako handled its little arc about 3d vs 2d.

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Soon 3D will be OK enough.

>>13590075
I honestly don't understand why this isn't already industry standard. It's not only DOABLE, it's BEEN DONE. Why isn't this the hottest new thing?

>>13590679
Rushing things out to meet the schedules, obviously. On the bright side, if Japan's video game industry crashes (which would be awful and unwanted, admittedly), all the CGI artists will apply their craft elsewhere.

>>13590075
BANANATITS

>>13590698
Those are regular tits friend. It's far from banana status

>>13590705
Like you'd know, the last time you saw boobs was 18+ years ago while suckling from your mothers teat.

>>13590679
It's not easy, and there's no universal solution to anything anyway.

Xrd aimed to combine the look of GG's sprite work with more impactful and dynamic scenery in stuff like the specials, intro animations, dust attacks, etc. Not to mention that BlazBlue has been carrying the 2d sprite mantle in Guilty Gear's absence so going for the CGI anime look was probably just as much a visual gimmick to separate the two further.

Plus who knows how taxed ASW's spriting staff was, clearly they were there to make Butoden run on the 3ds (amazing, sprites still serve a purpose! 2d is far from dead!), but maybe they just didn't have the means to do true 2d for GG and decided to try bullshitting it with CGI foolery.

But really what should be taken from it is that while it can be done, it doesn't automatically mean it must be done. The Xrd look would look jarring in a Polygon anime, I'd have to say.

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>>13582232
>no matter what

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still 2D

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I'm waiting for the day 3D animators will have old school 5-tones shading filter and even cheap ass anime will be better than a double-budget Escaflowne would have been.

It is getting glorious, we are slowly building the skills and tools to truly make anything a Directors can imagine without being limited by budget or technical limitation.

CG is fine in an entirely CG production like a video game, but all these shills forcing it into the animation industry for anything other than making some subtle backgrounds easier need to fuck off back to their California art schools and stay there.

The prevalence of CG cars, mechs, and fight scene has done nothing but rob otherwise hand drawn anime of it's identity and quality.
>But shitty hand drawn exists!
Yes it does. The solution is to learn to fucking plan production better, and stop hiring more expensive CG modelers and riggers, and invest that money in feeding your animation staff.

>>13598853
>and invest that money in feeding your animation staff.
That sounds like commie talk to me!

>>13598861
You're right. Take that money you'd spend on a real salary, double it, and import some jackass who wanted to make anime but couldn't draw, so we went to CG modeling school and now demands a higher salary that you're willing to pay for whatever reason.

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>>13593965
no 3d shit for me

>>13581981
But CG, even taking into account for inflation, is more expensive than hand drawn.

Comparison, when you take into account Pocahontas' release and calculate Inflation and compare to Frozen, if made today would cost

Pocahontas: $85,833,923.88
Frozen: $234,092,519.69

That's almost three times the cost. Pocahontas is one of most expensive Disney animated films during their boom in the 90s.

Not only that, look here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_films

Not a single traditional animated work is on the adjusted list, or even the non-adjusted list.

>>13598853
Traditional animation requires significantly more manpower as opposed to CG. The difference between CG and traditional effort required, is basically time vs resources.

>>13598915
Time IS a resource, so you might want to word that better.

Also I've yet to see any real figures about how much CG costs when it's used for backgrounds, cars, mechs, non-focus characters and entire productions comparatively. For example, how much does a show cost to produce entirely hand drawn vs how much does it cost to produce hand drawn but with X, Y and Z being CG.

>>13581097
>>13581138
Heavy Object is a LN and is completely translated on baka-tsuki

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Hand drawn is by far my preference. I feel like hand drawn will always be something I appreciate more because an artists hands went into it. I kinda feel the same way about old fashioned cell animation. However, I'm fine with cg as long as it is done in an appropriate fashion, and not on stupid shit like cars or horses. I've never really been against it as a whole, even the older stuff where it's really rough to look at. I like old Vandread and Zegapain. My real problem is franchises that switching from one to the other like Macross and Geass did. I don't like change. Oddly though, I was fine with Igloo because the entire production was CGI.

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>>13598927
What I meant to say, was that if you have a team of CG artists and Traditional artists of the same size and same skill equivalency, the CG team will finish faster. So when you're producing a TV series, finishing fast is the highest priority.

And generally speaking, the reason why traditional animation is cheaper is because (especially in anime) animators get paid beans, as opposed to CG animators. See pic related.

>>13598966
Yes anon, I've seen Shirobako.

Assuming you've actually watched the show, you know the biggest issue with animation production is time and scheduling. I don't know why that whole "muh bugdet!" myth took off when there's a chart showing average price of production per episode of certain shows, and studios like Kyoani show their budgets aren't too crazy and most of their production quality is a result of careful planning and not treating their animators like garbage.

It sickens me that animators with a real passion for their craft take such low wages to produce things they love, and CG modelers who can't hack it as a real artist (let's not pretend otherwise) swoop in and demand higher pay and better conditions to produce the stuff they do.

>>13582722
Eh, the story and characters are decent enough to keep watching. The awful fights really are a shame after the last season though.

>>13598990
Budget is still an issue though. You're given a budget to work with and you try to not go over it.

KyoAni shows also look like they do, because they don't have to worry about sponsors. They either are the publishers of the LNs they do, fund their own original stuff (mostly), or buy the license. This leads to minimal communication break downs in their nearly entirely inhouse animation teams.

>
It sickens me that animators with a real passion for their craft take such low wages to produce things they love, and CG modelers who can't hack it as a real artist (let's not pretend otherwise) swoop in and demand higher pay and better conditions to produce the stuff they do.
Supply and demand. Want to make more money? Prove that you got the skill to work as a chief animator, animation director, or something other than a dime a dozen entry animator. There is a need for CG animators more than traditional.

By any chance, are you from NA? You seem salty.

>>13599104
>because they don't have to worry about sponsors
Wasn't always the case, so this point is moot. It's not budget, it's planning. LoGH had about as much budget per episode in 1987 as most shows on average now have (factor in inflation and that number gets high) and it was basically a slideshow.

>There is a need for CG animators more than traditional.
No there isn't. Some shills did a great job perpetuation the idea that CG will eventually be really easy and cheap and look really good, but it still stands out and looks like garbage against a 2D backdrop and it's very expensive, and the "it's still in its infancy" argument is complete bullshit given how many years it's been. Cheers to the jew that shoved that idea on everyone successfully.

>By any chance, are you from NA?
What?

>You seem salty.
Yes. A thing I really like is being made worse, why wouldn't I be upset about the decline of something I like?

>>13598990
KyoAni is a major proponent of CGI though.
I think they're some pretty passionate folks, are they wrong to use CGI? Fuck no, it's their craft.

>shills
>jew
Dude just go back to /v/ already, or shut up and watch Concrete Revolutio.
As a grainfag, I feel your pain, I really do, but just as several directors have come around and gotten increasingly skilled at digital photography, there are several competent animation studios that can do 3dcg quite well. There are always gonna be creators that continue to work in classic fashion, I mean you've got your 7 years hand drawn to fall back on, so support that. CG is the future, trying to rage against some mythological Jew is just sad m8.

Oh, someone said something about Geass not having CG, and, fun fact, it actually did, even in the first season.

>>13600844
>I think they're some pretty passionate folks, are they wrong to use CGI? Fuck no, it's their craft.
Already said that use of it to help with backgrounds (like Kyoani does) is fine. Let's not pretend the CG cars in Amagi looked good.

>Dude just go back to /v/ already, or shut up and watch Concrete Revolutio.
Fuck off with the /v/ redirects. The watch Shirobako and pay attention to the "totally reasonable and subtle way" they have the old experienced vet tell the new kid that "CG is ok and you should totally accept it!" right before the show has some horrible looking CG pedestrians fill the background shot. It's being shilled, and the people on 4chan who work in CG won't shut up about how it's totally legitimate and just as good as hand drawn. And yes, Concrete Revolution is fucking great.

>there are several competent animation studios that can do 3dcg quite well
The difference is that digital coloring and animation still requires the same skillset where an animator holds a pencil or pencil like tool and draws frames. CG absolutely can not be considered "just a new tool for animators" because it's a completely different skillset on a fundamental level with regards to how motion is produced.

>CG is the future
>Just accept it!
>No one is trying to shill it
Ok.

>>13600871
>Shirobako
What does this even matter? It's one creative team's commentary yet people on both sides treat it like fucking gospel.

>not be considered "just a new tool for animators"
Then why do directors & animation directors call for it and promote it? Are they not animators? How is it not a tool for them to get their vision realized?
Look I feel for the small fry, but ultimately it's not their show, just like a film isn't the Best Boy's.

>>13600844

Code Geass never had 3D robots during the TV series. All it had were the trains, some of the ships and occasionally certain background elements like flags in the wind or similar. The actual mecha weren't CGI.

>>13600989
Point was that CG has been present in some forms or another for the better part of a decade (and a whole lot longer than that really)

>>13598934
the pictures make it better guess.

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> The difference is that digital coloring and animation still requires the same skillset where an animator holds a pencil or pencil like tool and draws frames. CG absolutely can not be considered "just a new tool for animators" because it's a completely different skillset on a fundamental level with regards to how motion is produced.

It might not be the same skillset but they are still artist and can be just as interesting (if not more of course) than any other 2D animators.
If I feel shills going on, it's the stupid innuendo that 3D is always "cheap ass hack", along telling us what level of 3D we are supposed to find shitty even when it is just as enjoyable than the mightiest 2D grainfest.

> Reminder that for as awesome Cowboy Bebop was, it was mostly just a slow paced succession of still frame. CG element put aside

80s-90s OVA quality > 2D > Macross knife fight > CGI

I'm alright with CGI if it runs smoothly. 12fps CGI looks so bad It gives me eye cancer. I can't understand why cant CGI scenes in most anime run smoothly.

>>13600897
>What does this even matter?
It's already been cited several times. I was keeping with the trend. Also, it highlighted where the new "talent" was coming from.

>Then why do directors & animation directors call for it and promote it?
Why does Japan bend over the barrel and take any shit idea from America? In this case, some asshole convinced them it's totally going to get easy and cheap and profitable.

>How is it not a tool for them to get their vision realized?
>To get their vision realized
That's a nice way to shift the goal posts from "It has the same potential for art" to "It helps the studio churn out some form of moving picture on screen so that they can sell." But please, by all means show me a quote where some talented animator said "You know what, we NEED less hand drawn and more CG for its artistic merits."

>>13602134
>It might not be the same skillset
That's all there is to it. The bullshit they spew about "It's just another tool!" is flat out wrong. Some people like hand drawn animation, and pretending that CG is just another tool like digital coloring is complete horseshit.

>they are still artist
So are the guys that put pictures of zoomed in mens asshole's on canvases and hang them up in museums. What's your point?

>>13581339
Garbage: The Anime.

>>13581084

I prefer 3D mecha.

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>>13602514
> What's your point?
Newer animation technology can be equal and superior to the old techniques they replace, in all aspects.
Many people like CG, be it full 3D, Cell-shading or digital 2D in a 3D environment, and many like it better than old hand-drawn animation, considering it an evolution.
Including the very persons who work, and worked with earliers techniques of animations.

Computer Generation really is just another tools. Why wouldn't it be ?

>>13602508
>>To get their vision realized
Their vision being an artistic one? Granted, much is commercial, but that doesn't preclude art from coming out of it.

2D or 2D-esque is the only acceptable answer.

It doesn't matter whether it's accomplished with drawing or computer graphics, as long as there's shading and flashy cartoonish visuals.

>>13605255
>shading
GOD EATER WAS SOOOOO GOOOOOOOOOD!

>>13604994
>Newer animation technology can be equal and superior
And it can be (and is in this case) garbage.

>Many people like CG,
And they're idiots who don't actually like anime.

>Computer Generation really is just another tools. Why wouldn't it be ?
Because it actually replaces the artists and skillset that anime is built on with another inferior one.

>>13605101
And I asked where a talented and renowned animation director specifically asked for CG for artistic reasons that weren't rooted in "we need to cut corners and save time/budget."

>>13583221
Comet Lucifer is too fucking good for the fights, everything else is garbage kek

>>13600871
>The watch Shirobako and pay attention to the "totally reasonable and subtle way" they have the old experienced vet tell the new kid that "CG is ok and you should totally accept it!" right before the show has some horrible looking CG pedestrians fill the background shot.
I never understood 2 things. One, how is CG QUALITY any worse than 2D QUALITY? At best it's sometimes less distracting. Two, how come they use low-quality CG models when there should be higher-quality ones available? Does it cost more money to put more detail in slides?

>>13583149
Not him, Akito is a little toofast and boring, the newest episode looked awesome though.

>>13606124
>Comet Lucifer fights
>Good
What's good about flying in circles and jobbing like an idiot?

>>13606169
>One, how is CG QUALITY any worse than 2D QUALITY?
One looks like shit. The other looks like painfully out of place shit. Hand drawn sakuga looks phenomenal and can completely change a show. At best, CG is unobtrusive.

>how come they use low-quality CG models when there should be higher-quality ones available?
Did you not see the payscale? CG animators and riggers are expensive. So obviously, it makes more sense to throw more money at a mediocre product because "One day it might not be shit even though right now you can get something vastly superior for a lower price and promote young talent that deserves it."

>ITT lack of Yukikaze webms

I really need to stop forgetting how to do webbums

>>13581084
Hand drawn fucking any day. Rebuild 1.11 vs Rebuild 2.22 is a classic example for how 3D fucks everything up. As are all the Unicorn sequences that are traditionally animooted vs the 3derp ones.

>>13581947
>drawing in mesas as part of your skybox

Anonymous, that's actually part of the plot. That skybox isn't supposed to look natural because it isn't.

>>13606571
How expensive can it be to clone 1000 copies of AnimeGirl.obj into the scene?

>>13606653
That's bullshit but I'll believe it.

>>13606678
Well, if you want spoilers to understand

That scene in question takes place when the Island Ship that Fafner's residents live on his been incapacitated by a massive Festum(the aliens of Fafner) while a swarm of Festum above them is bombing them constantly with an even smaller swarm of kamikaze Festum that are constantly covering the energy shield that the island is using to keep the enemy from invading and destroying the island. The messas are actually massive swarms of tiny aliens writhing on the energy shield trying to wear it out so they can kill everyone

>>13606662
More expensive than paying animators who love anime so fucking much that they're willing to work for virtually nothing, and constantly put in inhumane hours. It's modern day slavery.

If studios just hired real animators and gave them real wages with the money they threw at CG animators, and learned to plan production (basically a business model similar to Kyoani) instead of constantly grabbing freelancers and burning money on CG and not planning anything correctly (guess what's easier to keep track of; in house animators whose projects you control or a team of scattered freelancers that aren't only working for you) then everything would work out better.

>>13606703
I think you have it confused.
I am pretty sure that only explains the texture of the sky, the skybox problem has to do with the rock formations being flattened into the background as one big 2D texture and last I recall festum don't disguise themselves as rocks.

>>13606731
Personally I liked the island fight backgrounds when I paid attention to it but I don't usually notice these things.

>>13581084
The only time I've seen 3D used well for mecha was probably the Unicorn Gundam in destroy mode. And that certainly had some bad moments.

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With virtually unlimited budget, 2D is the way to go, but otherwise 3D can be a better choice for some things.
In big battles with lots of identical combatants, CG makes a lot of sense.

>>13607667
>Operation Ten-Go in space.jpg

>>13582003
wow gundam seed sure has changed

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Woah, someone here really is butthurt that people don't share his taste for old stuff
CG and 3D is still animation and the logical evolution of the genre.
You would have to be a troll or, well, mentally challenged to be unable to accept the improvement.
We keep hearing about 3D being shit but even late 2D animation was rarely better than what we have now

I remember a guy who disliked newer animation because he couldn't cope with rotating scene and increased space, no matter how good and detailed it was.

You would show him a sword fight with the opponents waltzing around in a superb music synced choreography (like say Crouching Tiger) he would genuinely insist that a low budget fight with looping stock footage and 10 long seconds of I-am-attaking-you still frame feel more intense.

I think he didn't realized he had ADD or something

>>13609367
Goddammit anon, now I have to get at least three bags of popcorn ready for the spectacle you've started. Thanks a lot.

>>13609367
That's not ADD, that's calling out sensory overload for being what it is, sensory overload.

Your focus isn't drawn to anything in particular leading to a jumbled mess of hyperdetailed things moving at the speed of weightlessness necessitating replaying a given scene over and over and over again just to comprehend what's going on.

Somehow people who equate fluidity with quality fail to understand not everything is meant to flow like quicksilver.

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>>13609387
What the fuck are you getting at ?
A shitty director like that would screw up even with talented old-school animator, but any competent director would do better with CG, including effects you simply couldn't do before
Only autistic guys would refuse to accept that newer stuff are just as interesting, if not better.

maybe ADD can handicap some person but they aren't the normal one

>>13609367
5/10, someone might actually fall for it, but probably not.

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>>13609367
anyone make a Webm of the final fight scene in MJP? there was a noticeable step up in quality for that minute or two.

>>13609722
Maybe you should work on your mastery of the English language first.

>>13609889
He's a retard, leave him be and let him think CG is good.

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>>13609722
>praises CG
>"proves" his point with exceptions to the rule

Just because a couple series who adequately budgeted their battles did CG right doesn't mean CG is good. When it's good it's great, but so is 2D.

On the other hand, terrible 2D will never be as cringeworthy as terrible CG. At least we could laugh at the QUALITY.

>>13610200
The best CG still looks like garbage next to the best hand drawn.

>>13610200
>>13611013
This is why it's impossible to ever argue that CG is okay with you idiots, you either constantly move the goalposts or nothing is ever good enough for you no matter what.

>>13611038
>More expensive than hand drawn
>Potentially costing young and upcoming talent their jobs instead of fostering young animators
>At worst, looks hilariously bad
>At best, isn't noticeable or is "ok"
>Strong suit is copy-pasting stock models in when studios can't budget time and need to get characters/machines on screen
As a consumer, I honestly can't fathom why anyone would want more of that permeating the market.

>>13611125
>>Potentially costing young and upcoming talent their jobs instead of fostering young animators

You've got that backwards. CG animators aren't costing young and upcoming talent their jobs, they're getting jobs because there are no young and upcoming talent.

Traditional mecha animation is a career dead end. If you learn it, you can draw mecha anime and get paid dirt to do so, and nothing else.

CG animators are better paid because they have skillsets that are actually in demand.

>>13611141
So it comes down to "what rich, powerful people want" like everything else, huh?

>>13611141
>CG animators aren't costing young and upcoming talent their jobs
>More CGshit is made, less is drawn
How is that not costing traditional animators their jobs and preventing new talent from springing up?

> you can draw mecha anime and get paid dirt to do so,
>skillsets that are actually in demand.
Yes. And these are the pressing issues with the current industry. Recent trends are disturbing, and I still don't understand why animation studios got the idea stuck in their head "We need to throw as much money at CG is possible because one day it might be good or we might start making Pixarbux." It's like no one told them what markets and consumer bases are, or that they can invest that same money in their existing staff to pay them better and get better production.

>>13611165
Yes, holy shit how new are you?

That's been the entire background of the animated mecha genre.

What story/show are rich people willing to fund in hopes of hitting a merchandising and profit land mine.

>>13611408
hell, thats how every movie/videogame/show/whatever works. rich people funding stuff to hit a gold mine of more money.

>>13611171
All that matter is what rich people want anon. Want 2d animation anon then get a rich person to fund it. Or become rich yourself and fund it.

>>13611165
>>13611171

This is why someone said you can't even talk with anti-CG people.

They're dumb as rocks even when someone is explaining simple concepts.

>>13611434
>Conversation is about what people like
>"CG is in anime because someone funded it because they were convinced there was a benefit! Look how smart I am!"
How fucking stupid are you anon? I'm serious. Do you think you dropped some big revelation on everyone by saying "It exists because it's in demand"? You're circular logic and stating of the obvious is worth absolutely nothing to this or any discussion, yet you have the audacity to call other people stupid if they question the source of and reasoning behind trends.

This is why CGshills are impossible to talk to; they're so brain-dead that they think stating something obvious and making a non-point justifies plugging their ears and ignoring the actual point of the conversation, or a new idea that requires them to think beyond the surface level of "CG exists because someone said it was a good idea."

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CG allows for constantly good looking mecha. I love that aspect of it. I also love that it allows for textures on mecha. I also think any CG mecha has more "weight" to its movements, if that makes any sense, and it helps them look more artificial in a drawn setting. However, shitty framerate is shitty framerate, which kills CG. Something really nicely animated like Gundam 0083 is great too, because it can be a lot more fluid.

>>13611450
>Constantly on model is a good thing for animation
>Oversaturated colors on awkward looking textures is good
>Out of place and clumsy movement add "weight" to movement
Hey look, the comments get progressively more wrong.

>>13611453
It's not even the style of the movement, just that the CG contrasts it to the background a bit better. It's tough to put into words. Using CG as an excuse to have the mecha take up a lot of the shot really isn't a good thing, I agree, better wording was an anon above me, there's no QUALITY moments. And textures and things depend, for example Gundam 00's mobile suit designs apparently just about killed the animators, so an effort was made to make the new designs for season 2 easier to draw.

>>13582742
>torrent for the 1080p is stuck at 30%

WHHHHYYYYYYYY

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>>13581084
i like hand drawn, but i'll watch cg as well. theres something satisfying about something that looks rough on the edges to me, and cg doesnt really do that. i will say that i do love some applications of cg in my anime but i will take hand drawn over it.

>>13611487

Oh yes indeed. You can almost taste the sweat and tears of the animator! Working for peanuts, animation a scene that lasts few seconds and takes a week to animate.

Hand drawn gives more freedom to the animation itself. Meaning that mecha, while they should, aren't rigid forms but are malleable. What I mean by this is that they can do stuff that would mean that parts of limb would need to compress or stretch like an organic thing. In 3D this doesn't happen.

If you look at that new Transformers game, they made the animations more flexible for the 3D models to make them look a hell of a lot more like hand drawn than cg, And it works really well. The awesome 80's faux-cel-shade adds to the effect.

>>13581084
Anything that doesn't look like shit.

>>13581084
Hand drawn. All day, everyday.

I'm somewhat new to mecha still and I've only been exposed to high quality CG enough to notice it. I've seen a lot of Gundam and stuff, and sometimes I've seen a scene that impressed me visually, but more often I notice how cheap/budgety it looks instead. I mostly associate 2d robot animation with cheap tv animation because of this. What are the high points of well animated old-school /m/?

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>>13611896
>The millennials are real
What a frightening time to be alive.

>>13611896
>I mostly associate 2d robot animation with cheap tv animation
>cheap tv animation
You need to choose your words very carefully next time kiddo. Them's fighting words around here.

>>13612298
>They've got us skewered, Noriko!
>Good. They won't get away this time!
Every time.

>>13611896
Lurk a bit more on /m/. Maybe look up some of the old webm threads. There's literally decades of good 2d animation out there that newfags miss because they don't have the patience or are too narrow-minded. Also it should be noted that in 10 years, the 3d animation you think looks good now, is gonna look like cheap shit. It's a unending cycle. I personally think it's better to look at stuff as a product of their time rather than "well older stuff is cheap" because at the time, it wasn't (outside of 1979 Gundam lol)

DYRL is all that I need to be reminded that I'll prefer hand drawn for life.

>>13612377
>yfw you will never see the hidden beer can missiles gag done flawlessly in the future

>>13612316
Everything Noriko does after actually getting in Gunbuster lights my blood on fire.

>>13612527
You are preaching to the choir, my /m/an. Noriko is the epitome of hotblooded female pilots that all other hotblooded female pilots aspire to.

>>13612535
Her hot blooded screams are probably my favorite ever. God bless that girl.

>>13581084
It all depends on the execution.
I could show highly animated hand drawn mechs and horribly out of place 3dcg.
Or i could show you QUALITY and wonderfully done 3D.
For 3D you cant go bad with based Orange

>>13612917
>wonderfully done 3D.
You can't show what doesn't exist.
>Muh orange!
Still looks like crap.

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Holy hell ! the double standard with retrofag is reaching its peak ! I'm betting there a lot of double posts, I hope that's troll because it would be pitiful to see people so delusional.

Basically they are asking us to prove that our taste is better than theirs, but will shit on anything we show them no matter what, even if their model hand-drawn series had like 5 minutes of quality over 42 episodes or were exceptional amongst 30 years of shitty hand-drawn show.

anyway, CG and 3D is still hand-made, old anime required just as much tools to look pretty, dozen sort of pencil, tons of color, god now how many type of paper, the machine to scan and assemble all drawing into an animation.

We simply improved all that.
Nowadays even shitty anime look better than what was done in the past, that's a fact.

>>13613077
How many times are you going to try baiting and failing before you give up?

>>13581084
3D mecha. 2d Mecha pretty much always look better in a 2D animated series since everything is rendered in the same medium.

The problem is drawing robots is a LOT harder then just modelling them in CGI and rendering them. Just look at the fights in the original Fafner series vs Fafner Exodus. Fafner Exodus is clearly superior. There is a whole episode that is just fighting, so much in fact it bleeds over into half of the next episode. This would never happen in 2D. If they tried it would basically just end up looking like the fights in Gundam Seed.

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>>13612329
>in 10 years blah blah blah

Well there's Blue Submarine 6 which sure as hell didn't age gracefully, yet there's a stylistic charm to it that I feel results specifically from it having well executed CGI (for its time).

Though it won't show well in stills, and I dunno if it's worth trying to webm the BD release since that's just an upscale...

>>13613127
GBFs finale had several dozen unique Gundam on screen fighting and it was all hand drawn goodness.

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>>13613077
Fuck you. The big budget hand drawn productions will ways beat CGI. It is like comparing a hand built Aston Martin with a Toyota Aigo. The thing is: sport cars are not economical.

Pic is best anime movie ever.

>>13613257
Figures you would say honey mayonnaise

>>13613282
Aye it's pointless since 95 percent of the anime fandom doesn't watch anything made before 2005. And Honnêamise doesn't have (half)naked highschool girls in it and actually tries to tell a story.

>>13613351
I like old /m/ shit and I like seasonal shit. I thought most anime fans enjoyed the medium in general.

>>13613448
Not if they have any semblance of taste and don't partake in The Cancer Killing Anime™.

>>13613464
Is it bad of I can't tell if this is satirical in nature or not?

Anime can't be killed. Throw in some fanservice girls and a bunch of memes and it will sell.

CG is great since it cuts down cost. You can make 60 shows a year with it.

>>13598446
fuck yeah!

>>13609367
>I think he didn't realized he had ADD or something
Did he realize he was a fiction construct made of straw?

>>13613671
You're responding to a retarded ESLfag troll, your post of far too subtle for him to understand.

>>13613512
Nah, it's normal. naysayer come here to badmouth even if it come across as stupid or irrational.
So you feel a genuine try to look intelligent, but instinctively you know they don't believe what they say.

We get troll topic against "3D cancer" and "cheap ass CG" every now and then.

>>13613695
Please stop posting, trollkun. Your broken English makes it too easy to spot.

>>13613705
> look at me ! they call off my bullshit so I call them troll
You are one to talk

>>13613723
Just stop. It's unsightly.

>>13612298
I did watch Gunbuster but it was just bland and uninteresting to me.

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> Berserk in the late 90s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qacgb2b8LVU
> Berserk in 2013
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASA2W2CsTwE

why choose ? it keep getting better

>>13613948
Berserk's CGI was not very good at all.

>>13613905
/m/ might not be your thing.

3D is PD

>>13613905

fucking gross m8

>>13613948
Seems like the general consensus is that good CG is great, but bad CG is more disgustingly jarring than QUALITY 2D.

CGI ironically makes the robots too robotic; they can't stretch in scale to convey emotion as well as good hand drawn animation. Also most CGI mecha scenes don't do a good job of conveying weight, they seem like precise balloons.

>>13614294

example of a fight that would have been particularly terrible with CG

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIfNM3lfzWQ

>>13612614
She's still a fucking retard for growing so emotionally attached to a guy she only knew for a couple of days at best, though

>>13614268
>good CG is great,
Nah, good CG is discrete. If you can tell it's CG, it looks bad.

>>13614312
>What is the suspension bridge effect

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>>13613966
> you are not allowed to say it's good because I don't like it

>>13614294
That's only your opinion and not a fact, a pretty bad one to me
look at MS IGLOO
3D CG is perfect for mecha, the non-stretchiness and correct proportion is what make new show so much better, 3D also allow to truly depict scales and speed.

What you describe is called QUALITY and that's sarcasm

>>13614301
why ? because you say so ?
it's certainly already CG and if it had been full 3D they could have used dynamic camera that 2D artist would kill for.

the best 2D artist could do was to compensate in wait for 3D tools

>>13614312
just saying, Noriko is feeling horrible because she was supposed to defend him in the pair. You could have dropped the romantic subtext it would stay the same
You are a retard to think death and culpability are trivial things.

>>13616244
ESLCGkun, just stop.

>>13616496
you sound like a broken clock

>>13613169
>blue submarine hasn't aged well but looks good for its time
Thanks for proving my point. Finish reading the post before going into "blah blah blah" mode lol
But yeah, it's always better to think of things in their own time rather than comparing to modern stuff.

>>13617298
The thing is I think it still looks interesting and worth watching today, without necessarily limiting the context to just the era of its production.

The times help put into context the technical potential and if that's what it takes to not get triggered by ancient CGI then that's your prerogative, but there's more to it than just technical merit. The look, the feel, the direction and compositing of scenes, it's an issue more complex than "eww gross it doesn't mesh with the backgrounds!"


It's a style, you go in to (hopefully) appreciate the style, because you don't have to account for the times to appreciate a style.

>>13617248
>Guy typing the same bait in broken English telling other people they sound like a broken clock
That's pretty funny.

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>>13581084
>technodrome

>>13581084
2D, since it has matured enough in a cinematic sense, because 3D is still maturing and the medium is still learning to adapt 3D into itself properly. MJP and Comet Lucifer are good efforts for 3D animation.

I like both,
3D has more potential though

>>13617903
>3D has more potential though
So we're just making shit up now?

>>13617956
as much as the anti 3D troll

>>13616244

you don't really understand art, do you?

also igloo literally looks like shit

>>13617971
Baitkun, didn't you already get told to stop?

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Baby Magnum!!!

>>13581171
Yes an them some.
>How do I know
I've watch shows with decant animators.

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>>13621058
You are trying too hard.
It is insanely expensive to animate half as much details using the old cells methods, drawer could never maintain proportion as precise, never draw as many inbetweens frame (not even 24 per second) and it is physically impossible to animate with cels over 720p because of pencils size and film grain.

I really wonder what you are hoping to achieve lying like that, you just look like an idiot.

>>13622102
Jesus Christ ESL-kun, just stop.

>>13614294
>they can't stretch in scale to convey emotion
>They can't go off model because animators cut corners
ftfy

3d for sure, when i see hand drawn mecha it just makes me cringe thinking of these old geezers watching this garbage animation

A thing that bothers me a lot in anime CG is how it seems that it's always going at a shitty fps, the only time this wasn't the case was Sidonia

>>13624179

>sidonia

the robot sequences maybe, but the rest of it has fps that still needs getting used to

>>13624179
Sidonia was chop central senpai.