What comes after postmodernism?

An era of thought named after me.

>>9983405
Postism

shitposting

21st century

Traditionalism ?

>>9983405
The great financial collapse of 20XX.

>>9983405
Renaissance 2: Electric Boogaloo

>>9983405
collapse

>>9983405
Post-post-modernism

>>9983405
The Emoji Movie.

The metanarrative that metanarratives are obsolete collapses upon its own contradiction; Spirit marches on.

>>9983405

You can't really understand postmodernism if you're still asking temporalized, historicizing questions of it. Postmodernism is phenomenologically characterized by a collapse of historical time. If you're trying to "think your way out of it," you are deepest in its ideology if you think that will happen through its sequential supersession. To put it another way, the modernist injunction to "make it new" was the achievement of the present; postmodernism then would be perpetually in the future, always yet to come to fruition, even though it is "here and now." We haven't seen the worst of it yet, and structurally speaking we never will.

Stop asking what comes "after" postmodernism. Start thinking about what is adjacent to it. What other things are emerging right now alongside it? Where else in the world has it taken hold? Where has it failed to do so, and what is happening there? This is to say that solutions to the problem of postmodernism do not exist in time, but in space. We aren't dealing with history as calendar, but with politics as a map. In a way, this explains why so many on the right have sought to square its circles with postmodernism by nationalist movements: carve out spheres of traditional culture within and against postmodernist global totality. Marxists, of course, have always been anticipating the global moment of capitalism, and through internationalism have always been trying to counter-totalize against it. Right wing nationalism is simply a localized version of the same impulse, which leaves itself vulnerable to reinvestment by postmodernist pastiche insofar as it cannot imagine itself as global; rather than fight back across the world, it establishes itself as one more territory for digestion, one more potential market demographic. (Who do you think is selling the nazis their flags?)

>>9983405
The Age of Aquarius, where love reigns free and good vibes are to be spread all around.

I'd guess some sort of post-anthropocentrism
pre-modern / modern / postmodern / next
>Architecture: tradition / utility / superfluousness / eco-integration
>Politics: nationalism / colonialism / globalism / animals-are-people-too-ism
>Philosophy: religious / grand-schemes / anti-meta-narrative / anti-human-perspective
>etc.
Already see it starting in speculative realism.

>>9983539
That is postmodernist

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>>9983405
baneposting

The new sensitivity

Technology makes everyone alone, everybody lives in his tech-bubble and people tell everybody about their loneliness via technology

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamodernism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-postmodernism

>>9983560
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypermodernism_(art)

>>9983541
In what way? It's opposed to superfluousness in architecture because it posits an ideal, the use of timeless/ecological design, minimal human impact so at the same time not modernist.
In politics, late capitalism and globalism work in their own interest -- capital wants to generate capital co-opting civilisation as an ally. The reaction is to not privilege human systems over nature, essentially attempting to destroy capital.
In philosophy, post-modernism suspect of truth and metanarritive, generally idealist. Speculative realism presupposes inherent truth but is also realist and universalist beyond human perspective. (Not that it's the only possible movement but perhaps the first).

>>9983537
Good post

>>9983547
Is baneposting not postmodern?

>>9983537
You have the right idea of the underlying philosophical dimension of the global New Right (a backlash against postmodernist global totality, as you call it), but tangible economic factors like outsourcing of jobs and loss of national control over the economy play a greater role imo.

>>9983604
I always thought it was more modernist

>>9983609
>but tangible economic factors like outsourcing of jobs and loss of national control over the economy play a greater role imo.

you're right. but i dont really think culture and economics can or should be so cleanly cut from each other.

>>9983587
>opposed to superfluousness

literally not, harman asserts of speculative realism that for ontological truth, "aesthetics is first philosophy." it's the final becoming-superfluous of philosophical thinking. it happily has nothing of value to say.

the susceptibility of ecology to architectural design is itself historically conditioned.

the problem with an ecological vision of anti-capitalism is that ignores the fact that global heat death is, for nature, neither a triumph nor a failure; it simply "is" nature. for us though, it represents the failure of humanity to conquer nature, both within and without itself. so hitching revolutionary hopes to natural supersession of capitalism is nihilistic, because the most likely form of that supersession (barring actual revolutionary activity in the economic base) is the destruction of humanity (save possibly for a few billionaires who migrate to the moon with their robots servants)

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Non-essentialism, inhumanism (distinct from post-humanism), bio-ruism (Jordan Peterson is already going in this direction), Stirnerian egoism, anything that can move past a reality of pure non-value is, without rejecting the fact that a reality of pure non-value is the actual case, I think, viable. So the answer is not get rid of anthropocentrism, but to demonolithize it.

>>9983405
Hyperrealism.

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>>9983717
Fugg, that's the wrong quote.

Anyway, since we're at it.

The reason vaporwave is the only legitimate current musical movement outside of extremism, is that it has a perverted sense of time. By this I mean that, where the conservative viewpoint strives for an idealized past (being essentially traumatic), and progressivism answers this by conjuring a future in which the past will be overcome, vaporwave does not continue the dialectic and instead takes upon itself neither of the idealized non-presents, but the failed proposed futures. It is therefore, a second affirmation, an "undead" aesthetic, in which the present is contrasted with the future-of-the-past that it didn't become. Vaporwave is, technically, not ironic: while it doesn't "mean" anything, its critique is not based on the failures of what it presents; rather it is based on the differences between that and what's outside. In a life of constant optimization where your phone upgrades itself every day, it fixates on how our predictions have already failed; therefore its cathartic effects. After all, every twobit gamer knows the graphics were fine like they were.

While this seems inconsequential in the short run, in the long run it could mean something like the Tolkienian project is completely viable; i.e. that a Tlön could come to be our honest reality, if it isn't already becoming it. After all: "a group of intelligent men who pretend to be idiots will soon find the company of fools who think they have found home."

>>9983405
Contrarianism

>>9983405
nihilism you stupid piece of shit

>>9983471
Literature-wise, where on the timeline does the Shitposting Era start?

>>9983405
meta-modernism

>>9983405
I think poetry is going to have a moment then we will have romantic revivalism

Postmodernism ended in 2016. What is happening now has no accepted name and is not yet widely understood. Movements exist largely in hindsight.

>>9985266
>Postmodernism ended in 2016.
[Citation needed]

Retarded-autists-with-developmental-disorders-and-extensive-attention-deficit-disorders-fighting over-canned-goods-in-a-hellish-dystopia ism.

Trumpism

Pre-postmodern philosophy largely compartmentalized reality into forms, categories, and substances.
Postmodernism disrupts this verticality through the dissolution of dichotomies into spectra. The human being is smeared across the plane of immanence.
What comes next is about recognizing that humanity can neither embody the plane nor perceive it with neutrality; that humanity is ultimately a cluster of coordinates scattered across the plane. Holographic verticality will be restored through an explicitly antrhopocentric functionalism that demarcates spectra into spectral densities on the basis of a fundamental bio-substrate.

>>9983486
I like this.

>>9983536
>The metanarrative that metanarratives are obsolete collapses upon its own contradiction

A disregard of metanarratives is not itself a metanarratives. That's like saying a repudiation of metaphysical propositions is in itself a system of metaphysics.

Suicide

Vajrayāna Buddhism.

>>9983405

nonpostmodernism

>>9983405
Posthumanism in a very literal way.

>>9985158
Infinite Jest.

>>9983773
you are the faggot that wrote that zero book on vaporware i am sure

>>9985272
Postmodernism is the apotheosis of a centuries-in-the-making mass delusion by which people either unable or disinclined to distinguish the laws of nature from the laws of civilization, the authority of god from the divinity of the state, or the unreal reality from hyperreal simulation. This condition is at least partly maintained through the progressive's monopoly over the state information-apparatus. Reality, normalacy, and social conventions, and other such hyperstitional institutions are formed through democratic consensus.Whoever controls this consensus controls the fictive narrative of civilization. However, the highly distributed nature of the internet made it possible for dissident voices to disrupt the consensus. While the schism has been present and brewing since the inception of the internet, it most spectacularly materialized with the victory of Donald Trump. It is not coincidental (but very ironic) that info-apparatus consensus formers began running stories about how we have moved into a "post-truth era" (the irony is that the post-truth era began with the emergence of agriculture several thousand years ago).
Now, postmodernism's disdain for "grand meta-narratives" has spawned legions of larping communists and nazis, using postmodern tactics to evade their opponents and pre-postmodern tactics to solidify their base. Under such conditions, it no longer makes sense to position these factions within some sort postmodern spectrum in the first place. They are simply awakened to the malleability innate to all civilizationally-organized realities.

>>9985286
only correct answer

If we knew it would have already happened. I do hope that it is something that is removed from the modernism umbrella instead of another ____modernism.

>>9985272

and in 2008... and in 2001... and in 1991... and in 1980...

>>9985430
not a single coherent thought, doesn't really argue anything, just lists some cringingly undergraduate observations. read a book.

Solipsism

>>9985904
How are my observations cringey, and what books would you recommend? Genuinely asking.

>>9985158
joyce

>>9983405
Modernism was a rejection of tradition, post-modernism is a rejection of meta-narratives. Maybe something like the New Sincerity will happen and reject irony, or maybe we'll see a relapse because of academia's lack of communication with the outside world, or at least the parts that matter.

>>9985975

alright, since you asked. it's a combination of a prosaic imagination and a limited understanding of what postmodernism means, has meant, as a periodizing concept.

your writing is very cliched. as a result, your ideas are as well. sentences like this:

>While the schism has been present and brewing since the inception of the internet, it most spectacularly materialized with the victory of Donald Trump.

this is more determined by its lazy writing than any thought that might be behind it. what i mean is that you don't really have to understand anything about contemporary political life to suppose that what you see on 4chan has bubbled over into electoral politics. this is the major cnn take right now, and it is almost certainly incorrect or at least incomplete. but its more importantly based on a really common analytical structure, where something happening in an obscure cultural sphere "materializes spectacularly" in a more visible one. it's not an insight; it's a regurgitation, and the genericity of the syntax in which its expressed is the symptom of that.

i will now say ive been a little harsh; i think you're basically correct when you say post-truth started with agriculture. but other than that, your distinctions and dualisms are far too abstract to be of any real use for thinking about social life. "the unreal reality from the hyperreal simulation." gag! this is just verbal masturbation, totally devoid of content. you have to earn something like that if you really are daring enough to say it; you might get some neckbeards around here to nod and tut-tut but it really won't cut it if you're trying to express yourself in writing.

your notion of "consensus" is crude and underdeveloped. you vaguely allude to some conspiratorial body but fail to name it. instead you simply echo (again) the widely held assumption that some control-valve has sprung a leak, without analyzing why or how. you just notice that it has happened.

it's that basic lack of rigor, that willingness to repeat things that are widely acknowledged, combined with the pseudo-profundity you festoon it with, that made me cringe reading your paragraph.

now, now. what to read? i would go all the way back to the origins of modern economics, if you really want to understand society. read Smith, yes, and Marx—but also Ricardo, and Malthus. go back even further and read Locke. read Hobbes. then come forward. read the Austrians. read Weber. read Keynes. read the neoliberals (Hayek and Friedman, Becker and Bell). read the Marxists; the Frankfurt School, Gramsci, Althusser and following. then read Foucault, Latour, and probably Weber again. you should read Jameson on postmodernism, then others who have replied to him.

you should read all of these people. read widely, not deeply, unless someone really grabs you. you'll see how much more complex all of these ideas really are.

Cornball reconstruction

Postmodernism always existed. The empire never ended. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be.

>>9983539
I like this and am down for post-humanism. Postmodernism will collapse not as we 'progress' past it but as we lose interest in the symbol, which will come about from realizing that thought, humanity, and culture are not all that interesting. A turning outward to the outside universe of animals, planets, and cosmic systems, without religious awe or metaphysical speculation. Environmentalism, and a focus on the non-human in art, a decrease in interest in the human spirit, history, human nature / the human heart, etc. Not metaphysics but fluid dynamics, set theory, horticulture, etc. take their place.

>>9983405
we pass go and collect $200

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>>9983405
Why, neomedievalism, of course.

Despair

>>9983458
underrated
I relate to this narcissism as I completely believe this

>>9986023
Thank you for the criticism! You are correct that my writing is cliched. I've been interested in philosophy for a while now, and to supplement my reading and studying, my general strategy has been to fake it until I make it. That is, I try to outline some of my thoughts as means of clarification and articulation, rather than pure transmission. Although it's painful, I appreciate feedback like this. There's no way I can say this without sounding like a fraud, but some of the things I'm talking about allude to deeper ideas that I'm not quite able to explain yet. For instance, I feel very justified in my usage of the phrase "the unreal reality and the hyperreal simulation." A lot of my current thinking centers upon the differences between fiction and reality, what heuristics can be used to distinguish the two, and how civilization is not only a process that enables retreats into fiction, but rather a fiction in-of-itself, and how in some cases a fiction can overwhelm and overpower reality, which seems to contradict our understanding of the reality/fiction dichotomy in the first place.

>i think you're basically correct when you say post-truth started with agriculture
Out of curiosity, why do agree? I'm always interested when my thoughts converge with another random internet person.

>>9985158
The Bible

Collapse

>>9985362
>A disregard of metanarratives is not itself a metanarratives.
The story that Lyotard et al. tell is both empirically and formally untenable.

>That's like saying a repudiation of metaphysical propositions is in itself a system of metaphysics.
"Eliminative" metaphysics is a system of metaphysics that one fails to put into words, yes.

>>9985139
that's old news, pops

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New Autism
soy products and codependence with real-time technology will usher us into an era where neurotypical behavior isn't the norm. Expect literalist art or something akin to New Sincerity without being post-ironic

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>>9983405
Anthropotechnics.

>>9983405
Nothing.

>>9983537
Nice one Mark

>>9983405
Memes and youtubepoop.

>>9983405
Post-Conservadurism
We are already entering in it, can't you see?

The 'text' in the postmodern sense is dead. Postmodernism will disappear, like letters written in sand.
It has never been new, it thrives on old distinctions. It will produce new distinctions, which only marginally differ from the old.
It proclaimed the end of metaphysics, and replaced it by something which only distinguished itself by a new name.

Seriously though, it will be 'new appreciation'

>>9986023
>T. I have read a lot of books I don't really understand yet I feel empowered and entitled by them so I will write a long text using a glorified ad hominem followed by an argumentum ad autoritatem while trying to write in a semi-academic manner in a Vietnamese minnow-farming symposium just to prove how smart I am even though deep down I know I can only spew the same pseudo-intellectual wankery again and again because despite those audio books I fall asleep listening to I have no idea how the world actually works and therefore I get lost in the perception of another deluded man greater than myself because it feels better than to actually think and confirm my own mediocrity.
Are you perchance a teacher?
Well, when you're here you're just a crab in a bucket full of crabs, Mr.English teacher.

>>9986396
Shape without form, shade without color.
Paralysed force, feature without motion.
Fucking Eliot nailed the whole XXth XXIth thing

>>9983405
beyond deconstruction comes Integration.

neo- empiricism and Neo-Natualism

>>9986407
How did you know that I'm a huge Eliot fan? I swear I did not even think of him when I wrote that post.

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>>9983537
Yes yes very interesting.

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>>9983405
Post-industrial romanticism.

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>>9983405
I think every new century starts with something akin to a "modernist" (but obviously not modernist in the strict sense) turn which lasts for about 30 years from say xx10 to xx50 then peters out into more pessimistic sentiments as the projects of that century inevitably fail.

I do think that in the last two years this century has aquired a flavour which is distinct from previous centuries.

I'm by no means any kind of /pol/ nazi but I've noticed myself and all of my actually hep, non-boring friends start to think along more traditionalist lines, and start to reclaim some sense of the masculine (starting to take an interest in making themselves well situated in their physical bodies; starting to become more assertive when people try to shout them down)--and this has happened independent of any exposure to those gay alpha supplement people with the blogs and what have you. This turn towards tradition is not instigated by /pop/ frogmen but is very much in the air, those who are unaffected are unaffected because they have closed themselves off deliberately. The general trend will undoubtably be towards tradition.

This has obvious implications for form. I don't see us going back to traditional forms of poetry from free verse, but I see free verse becoming vastly more restrained. Also I want a revival of epic poetry but idk if that'll happen.

Where many of the great novels of the modernist era were psychological (stream of consciousness etc.), I have an instinct that the great novels of this century will take a sociological turn, concerning themselves far more with the relations of people and peoples than the individual psyche. The nation will again become of primary importance in our stories.

What's certain is a "human" turn in fiction, where novels will again become interested in depicting people in detail and nuance rather than caricature. The postmodern treatment of the human figure is the aspect of the movement which will be most reviled in times to come and viewed entirely as a mistake and an aberration.

Finally, very few of the great radical works of the first half of this century will be traditionally published. Artists will find some alternative to traditional publishing, which will in fact become a mark of shame in real artistic communities, like having published pulp or pornography in the past. The distribution networks of the millennial artist are yet to be created, but this infrastructure is inevitable. Small by dedicated readerships.

People expecting some radical break from the past will probably be disappointed. Novels are novels are books are books, and nothing is so original when you understand it's contexts and predecessors.

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>>9986584
>which lasts for about 30 years from say xx10 to xx50
This is why I'm not a mathematician

What do we have in store for the future of the American left? The Rock vs Kanye West vs Mark Zuckerberg? Ironic Marxism?

>>9986584
>but I've noticed myself and all of my actually hep, non-boring friends start to think along more traditionalist lines
Are you absolutely certain this has nothing to do with you guys getting older?

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Anime primitivism

>>9986730
I didn't know Miyazaki was my nigga

>>9983405
reset

>>9985986
What would a reimbracing of traditionalism be called? And no not political.

>>9986023
>what i mean is that you don't really have to understand anything about contemporary political life to suppose that what you see on 4chan has bubbled over into electoral politics.

I want to defend anon on this one because I think there is a link between the postmodern/post-truth upheaval and Internet culture that has not been thoroughly investigated by people better read than all of us. The fact no one took 4chan, or Donald Trump, or the alt-right, or any of these entities seriously just a couple of years ago is telling of how far the acceptable limits of what constitutes truth have been stretched. If there is a distinguishable trajectory common to each, we have to ask where it's headed, and who threw the stone.

I also think people underestimate how smart some of the people on /pol/ are. They have come to grips with never being able to find truth, and so, they have created their own with no regard for the common moral laws which have bound political discourse since modernity- chief is the idea the world can at all be fair. Think about what an term like 'virtue signalling' or 'SJW' says about the person who employs it: they assume the mere notion a person might have- or can have- altruistic intentions is so unlikely that it deserves merciless, unbridled scorn.

Like I said, I haven't found any serious scholars of Internet culture, though if anyone has any recommendations I would love to hear them. Don't let CNN co-opt an entire school of thought, reduce to the most sensational level, and say that's as far as it can go.


>>9986064
>Environmentalism, and a focus on the non-human in art, a decrease in interest in the human spirit, history, human nature / the human heart, etc. Not metaphysics but fluid dynamics, set theory, horticulture, etc. take their place.

The problem is anon that this reality would inevitably be more dystopian than utopian. There are six billion plus people on Earth, and a fraction of a percent are cognitively capable of apprehending the natural world to a degree where its sustained awe can sufficiently replace religion and ideology. This is the problem that faces every era- how do you prevent six billion-something people from losing their minds? Well, you give them a purpose, and tell them not to think on it too much. The deification of science would result in a kind of fascism motivated by science as a religion itself, with people blindly subjecting themselves to it precisely because they cannot fully understand its mechanisms.

>>9986537
Probably this. I think society will at least make a last ditch effort to see some semblance of beauty in this consumerist wasteland. Vaporwave is a fledgling sign of this. This sounds gay as fuck, but I can't wait to see what the 20-something /lit/ crowd produces literature-wise, provided it actually has the motivation to stop shitposting and mocking itself.

>>9986854

... Traditionalism.

>>9983405
Revivalism

God save the West! I seek forgiveness for my people and for their transgressions, for their iniquity is great.

con't from >>9986903

>>9986584
>The nation will again become of primary importance in our stories.

For this to happen, we need to see the emergence of a successful centrist or left-wing nationalist movement in the Western world just so that the masses stop making the jump from nationalism to fascism and authoritarianism. Until the left stops alienating everyone with this half-intellectualised identity politics rhetoric, insofar the only thing any of these groups have in common is weakness, forget about the cultivation of any new national myths.

>The postmodern treatment of the human figure is the aspect of the movement which will be most reviled in times to come and viewed entirely as a mistake and an aberration.

This, so much

>The distribution networks of the millennial artist are yet to be created, but this infrastructure is inevitable.

You say this and then bookend it by saying 'people expecting a radical break from the past will be disappointed', so I'm a little confused. Do you mean something like Internet-exclusive publishing?

>>9983405
Unironically, the post-genetic era. Gene modification technology is already changing the world, but we have yet to see it anywhere near its apex. Once gene-tech like crisper cas9 hits the mainstream we are going to see some serious shit. People will have a hard time understanding its full implications and many others will be duking it out for control of the narrative.

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>>9983405
>What comes after postmodernism?
giggles

>>9986903
>The deification of science would result in a kind of fascism motivated by science as a religion itself, with people blindly subjecting themselves to it precisely because they cannot fully understand its mechanisms.
Is this not already becoming a mainstream current? It's irrelevant whether it's dystopian, in a sense so is postmodernism, the movements develop organically -- if they were motivated by pragmatism they'd just be pragmatism.
>This is the problem that faces every era- how do you prevent six billion-something people from losing their minds?
Something non-anthropocentric could certainly cause this but isn't the point of something non-anthropocentric that it doesn't matter? The point is not to privilege man within the ecosystem; if humanity goes insane, what does it matter to nature?
>a fraction of a percent are cognitively capable of apprehending the natural world to a degree where its sustained awe can sufficiently replace religion and ideology
It's the opposite of trying to surpass anything in awe, it's the loss of interest in anything. Science may in some sense inspire awe with in some through the galaxies, the deep, the brain, etc. But for the most part it strips the magic away. Nobody is shocked that the number of stars is incomprehensible to the human mind any more, it's just a fact.

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"post" debates.


oh cool.. its the early 90's again.

notice the detrimental effect of opening up academia to neo-liberal, market forces in th early 90's.......the humanities stopped progressing

>>9986951
>Is this not already becoming a mainstream current? It's irrelevant whether it's dystopian, in a sense so is postmodernism, the movements develop organically -- if they were motivated by pragmatism they'd just be pragmatism.

Eh, call me a cautious optimist. I would sincerely like to think our species is headed for, or can at least aim to something like a reconciliation of individual limitations and common values.

>Something non-anthropocentric could certainly cause this but isn't the point of something non-anthropocentric that it doesn't matter? The point is not to privilege man within the ecosystem; if humanity goes insane, what does it matter to nature?

I think you're a few steps ahead of whatever the next cultural paradigm is- you're talking about conscious self-destruction of our preservation instinct. I don't think we're quite at that stage yet. But if science is the last frontier of metaphysics, and people too lose faith in that too, with said knowledge in mind, all hell will break loose. I agree with you on that. I just think we'll make a few more collective swipes at a common value system before this happens.

That also addresses your third point in a sense.

>>9983537
/lit/ needs more of this, please.

>>9986023
>Malthus

Now who's the bullshitter?

>>9986100
This seems likely.

>>9983471
more like post-shitting

>>9983696
The ridiculousness of calling those billionaires human should be apparent. Only what is inhumane in them will escape death, and that is still essentially "natural", still human.

Most of this all or nothing projection is a failure of imagination - which will not be a problem when things get even a bit more hot, say just a few degrees.

Nature has been misunderstood and will assert itself against its death, regardless of afterthought categories defining what the bodies can help but do.

Nobody succeeds postmodernism, they can only ignore it.

>>9986942
Agree very much with your position on the left wing

There is a little confusion in the structure of my post. I should have ordered the ideas a little differently.

There will be a radical break in distribution infrastructure for the modern artist, necessitated by the modern publishing process, which *will* reject any genuinely challenging modern work, even if it is formally conservative (maybe especially if it is formally conservative, which is an important point). However I really don't know what else to say about this alternative (it's something I've only started thinking about recently). I'm not being ironic (not entirely anyway) when I say look to people like Jordan Peterson and Milo Yiannopoulous, and how easy it would be for them to self-publish whatever obscure tome they wanted, and have their followers either read it and like it or read it, fail to understand it and idealise them even more. So that's some kind of option for some of us. But the majority I think will just have to work like ordinary people and make art on the side (and maybe that's not such a bad thing). What's important is the drive and sense of purpose which will come when these artistic streams become more concrete and we begin to consider ourselves as part of a movement. Communication between artists with similar aesthetic and political digs is essential, and this communication is simply not happening at the moment.

The other thing I was saying, the area where there will not be a radical break, is in the ways of storytelling that we've practised since the very beginning. People, when they discuss the future of literature, allude to some vague new forms which will emerge in the future. But this never happens to any great degree. Stream of consciousness was prefigured in a million different ways in the 19th century, it didn't appear out of nowhere during modernism. The novel isn't "dead", it won't be replaced with twitteresque aphorisms or whatever people claim. It might change a little, but not as radically as people expect. It's an important point because I think a lot of modern artists are paralysed by the notion they aren't writing stuff that's radical or different enough, when the self-conscious formal fuckery that they yearn to be able to pull off is just obnoxious and a waste of the opportunities provided to the modern artist by the world he inhabits.

So yeah hopefully that's a little clearer

>>9983405
mostpodernism

>>9985158
Ancient Pompeii

>>9986917
>What's the renewal that took place during the Renaissance that was humanism.

>>9983405
>Think about what an term like 'virtue signalling' or 'SJW' says about the person who employs it: they assume the mere notion a person might have- or can have- altruistic intentions is so unlikely that it deserves merciless, unbridled scorn.
Not quite. They mock them because their simplistic vision of reality doesn't really solve the problems they address to but it doesn't matter because they get immediate satisfaction and they feel good about it.
SJWs are groups that work on group pressure and good guy points, meaning they don't really do it to help people. They are not silent helping hands, but often loud about it with a crusader-like actitudes and general hypocrisy. I've met SJW who were total scumbags with a holier than thou attitude and I met naive SJW who were genuine and good nevertheless. Both of these groups tend to be self hating to some extent. They either hate their culture or the rules they grew up with and think foreign=better.
Many /pol/ nutcases are pretty much the same. The rules they were born with were politically correct, so they hate them and challenge them. They are right, however, that we should go for the root of our problems instead of instant gratification. But searching for a long term solution would mean acknowledging our societies' big problems and it's easier to just pretend you fix things up.
Neither left nor right would dare to face that, as it wouldn't help them win the election.

>>9987680
It really makes me mad when autocorrect makes me do a typo. Phoneposting is suffering

>>9986401
>>9987155
these are both me cocksuckers:
>>9983537
>>9986023
if you knew anything you'd know that i recommended returning to weber alongside foucault and latour because they represent a late-century positivist swing away from dialectical marxism, which came to a crisis with althusserian structuralism. so fuck off bitch; that's just one example i could give; and criticizing a piece of writing (on a 4chan post, as you've noticed) doesn't require exposition of the ideas motivating the critique. some body of knowledge has to be assumed.

and why, by the way, did i rec. jameson? because my whole thesis on the spatial, non-temporal character of postmodernism is abstracted from his big bad postmodernism book, which ive read. bitch.

>>9986113
after you've read some Marx, check out Horkheimer and Adorno, /Dialectic of Enlightenment/. they trace the alienation straight back to the origin of agriculture, just as you've intuited. they talk abut Odysseus as the first bourgeois archetype, overlooking his property, which he owns, and seeing his own labor in it, even though he's already alienated form the property by hiring people to work it. they're alienated too, of course, in the more traditional sense of that concept. i'll warn you: the book is very literary and poorly translated, but you can still glean some nuggets of wisdom given its aphoristic style. and then read criticism/analysis, of course: gillian rose probably has the best English introduction to Adorno's critical thought in The Melancholy Science.

>A lot of my current thinking centers upon the differences between fiction and reality, what heuristics can be used to distinguish the two, and how civilization is not only a process that enables retreats into fiction, but rather a fiction in-of-itself
if you can get any traction on him, Lacan might interest you. the borromean knot of the Real, the Imaginary, and the Symbolic illustrates that you cant really understand what we call "reality" without grasping how its "fictional" dimensions reciprocally structure/are structured by its "actual" dimensions. but those latter are really obscure in Lacan, so good luck there.
as a final note you'll notice a lot of affinity between Adorno and Lacan if you read Adorno's writing on sociology; there's a lot there about how any concept of "society" is flawed because it's an attempt to exclude the analyst's position in the totality he's describing.

>>implying im not insecurely trying to prove my knowledge now
>>>implying you weren't planning to use that as a further """ad hominem""" attack on me
>>>>implying it matters on 4chan
>>>>>implying im not sincerely trying to help someone

>>9985399
I've written no such books!

>>9985362
>That's like saying a repudiation of metaphysical propositions is in itself a system of metaphysics.
One cannot imagine the world nor oneself without a system of metaphysics. Thus, say, the metaphysical view underlying the rationalistic (drawn from natural sciences, particularly physics) is metaphysical nonetheless.

>>9987712
Postmodernism's greatest mistake is generally changing art for challenge, it reduces itself when it could be so much more. I may be a bit biased because I think Foucault is basically a con artist. What I understood of him is that he just adds much more mud for the water. He subverts everything he touches and turns it into a tool he can use to reassert his own ideas. He either misunderstands or maliciously ommits information to get the higher ground. Postmodernism by itself is brilliant, but at the same time it stops becoming art at some point and we get something else, built with a different intention.
I think about it as genuine friendship and friendship as a means to an end.

I also disagree that challenging postmodernism is postmodernism because intention matters here. And I don't think it's fair to claim that postmodernism is some sort of ultimate form of art. That's simply wordplay. You can claim everything is postmodernism using that argument, which ultimately makes calling anything postmodernist irrelevant.

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>>9987712
Calm down, sweetie.

>>9988032
Bugs, go eat some carrots.

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>>9983537

>Postmodernism is phenomenologically characterized by a collapse of historical time

> that solutions to the problem of postmodernism do not exist in time, but in space.


jfc the pseuds are out in full force today

>>9983405
PICKLE RICK

>TFW you accidently clicked an ad from /biz/ and ended up in this thread.

Future will be neo-traditionalists fighting each other in tribal warfare.

>>9983405
Metamodernism. /thread

>>9983458
Anonism (not to be confused with onanism).

>>9983405
well, why don't we ask adam curtis
probably THE postmodern artist

https://www.e-flux.com/journal/32/68236/in-conversation-with-adam-curtis-part-i/

>>9983405
post apocalypse of course
in both meanings of the word

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meta

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAExa9P7hME

>>9983537
What the fuck are you trying to say?

>>9988473
he is probably saying that it is not going anywhere.
the traditions and stories that will define future time are already here. we just have to search for them and collage them correctily

Postmodernism is just cynical modernism. The beliefs are all the same, but instead of believing in man and reason triumphant, man and reason are doomed to die. The dance of fascism and nihilism to the tune of stoicism. The obvious next is a revitalization of "medieval" perspective. Of course "medieval" was a word the modernists created so they could denote themselves as modern. Really this is just the second fall of the Roman empire, which was only ever resurrected as a ghost anyway. The Christian world will carry on as it did before. And it won't need a name, because only a modernist could see the history of the world in such stupid little boxes.

>>9983405
The end

>>9988072

>t. illiterate

>>9988473

I'm not that guy but the bullshit physical terms thrown around basically mean postmodernism defines itself as redundantly being ever "after" anything you can possibly conceive. Whatever happens from now on (and whatever happened from late 20th century onwards) is always and will always be "postmodern". This primordial soup of nihilistic deconstruction is where things come from, not what things go to become; Hence why you would say "historical time is compressed in postmodernism" because every bullshit ever said by everyone, is repeated in here. And potentially (which is VERY pretentious, mind you), every bullshit that will ever be said is ALSO already in here, we just have to build it up from our atomized little pieces of postmodern bullshit.

So basically, our 20th century [kinda bad and debunked] attempts at philosophizing about relativity and quantum mechanics has finally caught on to sociology and continental philosophy and boy is it ugly.

>>9986064
>without religious awe or metaphysical speculation.
nothing invokes the sublime more than anti-humanist cosmicism though, and thinking the sublime is basically the definition of religion

>>9987663
There it is! I can't believe humanism doesn't get discussed here as much, considering the public good is central to good art. We need some art like a good old fashioned Hobbesian Awe - except of course, put forward by the public, for the public good.

Or maybe that's already happening, but is being glossed over by something else within the glut.

>>9983405
Gigamodernism

>>9989721
Why the hell would humanism be the response to the failings of humanism?

>>9983405
post hedonism and a cigarette