Catholicism Vs. Orthodoxy

comet suicide homobroteenposerqueernorm

>>9931553
>muh slave morality

>>9931553
It would be really lame if you devoted your life to God and he sent you to hell for being in the wrong sect.

>>9931553
Orthodox>Catholic>>>Protestant

i really love nuns desu. i've been watching videos of nuns all week.

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>>9931565
Orthodoxy doesn't claim that no one who isn't Orthodox will be saved, by no means. We do however claim to be the only Christians who have ontological continuity with the original Church.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=qDoyZtkrU0s

>>9931553
>Which side has produced the best literature?
Its not really a fair comparison given the relative size and number of adherents.

>Which is the true Church?
What grounds makes a church true anon and how would you test them?

>>9931608
>Orthodoxy doesn't claim that no one who isn't Orthodox will be saved, by no means.

It just claims that they the sole Church/Body of Christ and that all other denominations live outside of Christ and that consequently many Orthodox do not believe that the sacraments or the ability to receive Gods Grace is present in other churches.

Whilst that's not directly saying you will go to hell it is pretty close.

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>>9931723
You're trying to copy Papist legalism on to Orthodoxy, which you really can't do. Whether or not someone goes to hell, we can't know, and we do not deny that even if someone were not of the Body of Christ here, they might very well be in the age to come. In fact, we believe even those in hell can still be saved, at least prior to general resurrection, and that is why we pray for the dead

>>9931553
The Orthodox emphasis on mysticism makes it difficult to be a casual, which alienates newcomers.

The Catholic emphasis on legalism makes it really easy to be a casual, which alienates advanced followers.

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I may be biased, being a practicing Catholic myself, but I feel the sheer weight of history comes down on Catholicism's side. All the churches--including every Protestant sect--have had their moral failings and their turns at being filled with terrible people. But it's Rome that seems to possess both power and authority in spite of all that. It's proud and massive, yet at the same time seems constantly put-on and able to make people on both sides of its issues angry simultaneously. If you were to pick a branch of Christianity and label it the One True Church, Catholicism seems the one, based on both its teachings and its history--Scripture and Tradition, you might say.

>>9931876
>You're trying to copy Papist legalism

How so? All I'm doing is clarifying the possible implications that come from the claim that other churches lack ontological continuity with the original Church. (whilst of course not pigeon holing it by Saying ALL Orthodox).

For people unfamiliar with Christianity its important to understand why this ontological continuity is seen as being so important.

>Whether or not someone goes to hell, we can't know

Which is why I didn't say that Orthodox or Catholics do - even when they excommunicate someone.

>>9931928
What do you respond to regarding the claims made by the Orthodox having the true continuity with the early Church and its practice and dogma

>>9931949
there gay

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>>9931949
I would tell them to read Newman's "An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine."

>>9931968
>Essay
>480 pages

Jokes aside what about it/ specific arguments did you find in particular to be so convincing?

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>>9931941
You're saying that it is close to saying someone isn't saved by saying they aren't in the Body of Christ. For us, it is not close at all, and in fact we are taught to hold salvation as the default assumption for everyone but oneself. We also believe hellfire is precisely the same as the light of the Transfiguration

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>>9931968
>Cardinal Marx criticized the Church for not being at the forefront on homosexual rights in Germany and said the Church must express regret for not acting to oppose the former law against homosexuality.

>It must be recalled, Cardinal Marx said, “that the Church has not exactly been a trailblazer as far as the rights of homosexuals are concerned.”

>“We must express our regret that we did nothing to oppose homosexuals from being prosecuted,” he continued.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/cardinal-marx-homosexuals-deserve-an-apology-from-the-church

>“The advice to refrain from sexual acts in the new relationship not only appears unrealistic to many,” Cardinal Marx stated. “It is also questionable whether sexual actions can be judged independent of the lived context.”

>In 2014, Marx responded in an interview to the issues under consideration at the Synod of Bishops concerning the Church's treatment of people that are gay: "I have the impression that we have a lot of work to do in the theological field, not only related to the question of divorce, but also the theology of marriage. I am astonished that some can say, “Everything is clear” on this topic. Things are not clear. It is not about church doctrine being determined by modern times. It is a question of aggiornamento, to say it in a way that the people can understand, and to always adapt our doctrine to the Gospel, to theology, in order to find in a new way the sense of what Jesus said, the meaning of the tradition of the church and of theology and so on. There is a lot to do".[25] He went on to say, "Take the case of two homosexuals who have been living together for 35 years and taking care of each other, even in the last phases of their lives. How can I say that this has no value?" [26]

>>9931565

Never let anyone get between you and God, even the Church. Follow the teachings of Jesus and you will never go wrong. All that matters in the end is following the teachings of Christ with full sincerity. End of story.

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>>9931968
Please STOP "developing" your doctrine

>Catholic parish celebrates homosexuality, sells Gay Pride t-shirts after Mass

>At a New Ways Ministry conference in November 2016, Fr. Muth proposed developing a Pre-Cana course designed specifically for gays and lesbians. He went on to say that he already meets with gay couples getting married and has directed them to “older gay couples in the parish” that can offer “the benefit of their experience.”

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/catholic-parish-celebrates-homosexuality-sells-gay-pride-t-shirts-after-mas

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>>9931968
>In April 2012, the election of a young gay man who was living in a registered same-sex partnership to a pastoral council in Vienna was vetoed by the parish priest. After meeting with the couple, Schönborn reinstated him. He later advised in a homily that priests must apply a pastoral approach that is "neither rigorist nor lax" in counselling Catholics who "don't live according to [God's] master plan".[38]

>Schönborn is a member of the Elijah Interfaith Institute Board of World Religious Leaders.[31]

>Elijah Interfaith Institute is a nonprofit, international, interfaith organization which was founded by Rabbi Alon Goshen-Gottstein in 1997.

>>9932004
>You're saying that it is close to saying someone isn't saved by saying they aren't in the Body of Christ.

Allow me to clarify then -

"Saying they cannot receive Gods Grace or valid sacraments is a close as it gets to validly saying they will go to hell"

In case you are in any further doubt Ill even state my intention of my original post.

"When discussing ontological continuity with the original Church it is flippant not to also discuss the seriousness and consequences of this"

Also nice inception icon.

>>9932015
>>9932022
>>9932025
>autistic screeching

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>>9931968
>Archbishop Paglia commissioned homosexual Argentinean Ricardo Cinalli to paint the cathedral mural in 2007. Covering the entire back wall of the cathedral church of the Diocese of Terni-Narni-Amelia, it depicts Jesus carrying nets to heaven filled with naked and semi-nude homosexuals, transsexuals, prostitutes, and drug dealers, jumbled together in erotic interactions.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/vatican-archbishops-x-rated-mural-reveals-an-indiscreet-sex-happy-manp

The archbishop was later appointed by Francis to head the Pontifical Academy for Life

>>9932015
>>9932025

Not that anon you are responding to what do these news articles have to do with Newman's Essay?

>>9931949
Catholics believe that they too have apostolic succession. I don't know if the opposite is true.

>>9932042
Even the shitty anglican church believes in the apostolic succession. The real debate among Catholics and Orthodox is one of rite and practices.

>>9932021
The Orthodox Church is literally, ontologically Christ (Ephesians 1:22-23)

>>9932030
>Saying they cannot receive Gods Grace
We say no such thing. You literally cannot even exist without grace

>>9932036
Newman's essay is about how doctrine changes over time. This theory, now popular among Catholics but rejected by Orthodox, is the primary basis of the lobby for okaying homosexual relations in Catholicism

>>9932050
>The real debate among Catholics and Orthodox is one of rite and practices.
That's wrong, Catholics have Eastern rite and Orthodox have Western rite (looks like Medieval Catholicism )

>>9932053
nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is in your midst." Luke 17:21

>>9932085
Aye, literally "among you"--the Kingdom of God is the Church. But "within you" is an equally valird reading (or translation), since we are icons (image or reflection) of God. To see God, you must look inward and observe him through reflection of his light, which becomes brighter as you become holier and purified of the sinful dirt

>>9931553
Vatican II proved that the Catholicism is a false religion. The Pope together with pretty much every bishop in the world taught moral error which contradicted past binding teachings, which was supposed to be impossible because of the protection from error accorded by the Holy Ghost.

I really don't see how this can be unclear to anyone. Orthodoxy is the true religion of Christ.

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>>9932053
>We say no such thing. You literally cannot even exist without grace

Just basing it off of these articles


https://oca.org/questions/romancatholicism/validity-of-roman-catholic-orders

http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/francis_sarov.aspx

>>9932070
>his theory, now popular among Catholics but rejected by Orthodox

What about when it comes to contraception?

>>9932137
>>9932137
V2 is slowly being undone though. Many churches in my country are reverting to full Latin mass

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Anyone here read this?

I picked up a copy on the cheap recently, but haven't gotten around to it yet.

>>9932084
Why does one have eastern and one western? Shouldn't the orthodox have eastern rites since they are geographically to the east?

>>9932149
Condoms weren't a method of contraceptive for most of history, the only kinds could work as abortifacients. Coitus interruptus wasn't considered a sin in the east , though, and we equate condoms with that.

>>9932137
Vatican 2 can be interpreted in light of Tradition--or it can not be. As >>9932152 states, the idea that it's a break from the past is a strange relic of the 1960s, and nowadays that view is probably in the minority. This minority unfortunately includes Francis and some of his more influential bishops, but most of them are in their 80s. Their time is almost up.

>>9932169
There are Orthodox in the West as well. French and Celtic Orthodox rites, for instance.

>>9932209
if the church wants us to have more kids how about making it possible to get a living wage job without a phd from yale

>>9932222
Wages are a lot higher now than in ancient times in terms of what you can buy. Major difference is kids are no longer a retirement plan

>>9932155
the church needs to set up a venture capital fund so catholics can succeed in capitalism, the jews have tons of capital available for their people, and protestants also have opportunities, but if you're catholic your best bet is probably pitching to some chinese mother fuckers, but even that's a long shot

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>>9932222
We're working on the whole capitalism thing, Anon. Give us a few decades, it took almost a century to topple communism.

Both are bastardisations of what Jesus actually taught.

>>9932238
>Dmitri Lubomudrov, the Orthodox Church’s legal adviser told the media at that time, “We realized we couldn’t stay dependent on the Western financial system, but must develop our own. As with the Islamic system, the Orthodox one will be based not just on legislation, but on Orthodox morality as well, and will be an invitation to businessmen seeking security at a time of crisis.” Among its features would be interest-free credit issuance and prohibition of investment in gambling casinos or such activities going against Church moral values.

The system would take Russia off the IMF

http://www.globalresearch.ca/interest-free-banking-russia-debates-unorthodox-orthodox-financial-alternative/5495331

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>>9932239
>that necklace

god damn he must do massive crit damage

>>9932260
Which you know best about

>>9932260
Bold comment friend. I'm with you so far but I hope you're not a crazy person.

>>9932260
ok, so what did jesus actually teach

This thread makes me sad. Let the church breathe with both lungs :(

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>>9932372
As soon as the Schism is healed, it will. I have hope and faith for the Third Council of Nicaea.

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>>9932372
We don't consider Rome to be a lung of our Church. The Pope who said that kissed the Quran anyway, we don't want any part of that.

With the Copts, on the other hand, we might actually repair the schism. That's because they haven't changed since the schism, but Rome has. A lot. If Bede and Augustine were here today, they'd be Orthodox

>>9932392
There won't be one. Bulgaria literally boycotted Crete for referring to Rome as a church (as opposed to just heretics). The Ecumenical Patriarch doesn't have any special authority, he just is the chairman

>>9932239
ayyyy this outfit is fucking fire

>>9932406
>Bulgaria literally boycotted Crete
By that I mean the church and the council, respectively

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>>9932406
All you Orthodox ever do on this site is bitch about the Vatican. Over and over. All the Orthodox Sees ever did was bitch about Rome, for a thousand years. Meanwhile we went out and evangelized the world. We actually did what Christ asked and brought the Gospel to the ends of the Earth. You stuck around in the Slavic world and now your Church is merely a cultural artifact.

>>9932449
>Meanwhile we went out and evangelized the world.
>we

I bet you've never evangelized a single person in your entire life.

>>9932372
Can the church nut out of both balls and through its huge protestant dick?

>>9932493
I actually have proclaimed the truth of Catholicism to people IRL, sometimes in heated debates. And that's to say nothing of all the evangelizing I've done online. I do a lot of evangelizing on this very site, for that matter.

Catholicism has a lot of pagan influences in their dogma. The existence of a place cold Purgatory would be one of them. If you read the book of Apocalypse properly, you would find out that the souls are resting until Jesus will come for their final judgement. This is not the case with catholicism, because they come from a pagan environment, they would never accept the thing that the souls do not go anywhere after death. That is why they even have a Purgatory, a celtic influence, to give souls a chance. When Jesus will come, the Purgatory will disappear too and there will be just Hell and Paradise. Constantin was right when he decided to change the capital city. Rome was impure, catholicism is impure.

>>9932070
His essay is about how Doctrine gets clarified and more detailed without contradicting itself.
Trinity was an unknown term for a few centuries, but now it's one of the most important terms. Children weren't baptized before, now they are. Confession was firstly not allowed, then it was a once in a lifetime and then a common sacrament and so on.

>>9932624
book of apocalypse is fag shit

>>9931553
In comparison, at least theologically and philosophically, Orthodoxy is infinitely inferior. They never could resist the Catholic claims by argument, which is why they had to resort to banning Jesuit universities and Aquinas in Ukraine and Russia, which at the time were some of the few free Orthodox countries, the rest being under Turkish control.
They also accepted the Catholic claims during the council of Florence, all except one legate did, but when they came back, being slaves to the state as they are rejected the legitimacy of the council because it would mean political submission (not that it helped them much tho, since the Turks got them anyway).
There's no figure in Orthodoxy that can compare not to Aquinas, but his commentators even.

>>9932149
Are those articles false?

>we equate condoms with that.
Which is why something that has been around for 150 years was only equated with that 24 years ago?

>>9932645
Was meant for
>>9932209

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>>9932449
>Meanwhile we went out and evangelized the world
By the sword

In regard to the rest of your post

>Conversions gradually transforming Orthodox Christianity

>More than 70 percent of the roughly 75,000 Antiochian Orthodox Christians in the United States are converts. The Orthodox Church in America, with roots in Moscow and about 85,000 adherents, reports a 50 percent figure. In Greek Orthodox Christianity, by far the largest branch in the United States with almost 480,000 members, it's about 25 percent.

>"We have these ethnic titles in our names, but they refer to where our hierarchies reside," Gilbert says. "None of these [jurisdictions] believes the church is for Greeks or Russians or Serbs. It's a church for humans."

>The strength of Orthodox Christianity— also known as Eastern Christianity, Eastern Orthodoxy or Greek Orthodoxy — stems from the conviction that its traditions are the same as those practiced by Jesus' original followers, the 12 apostles, and the theologians who codified those practices in their writings over the first few centuries after his death.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-non-greek-greek-orthodox-priest-20170624-story.html
>>9932625
>Children weren't baptized before, now they are. Confession was firstly not allowed, then it was a once in a lifetime and then a common sacrament and so on.

That's not actually true. Some people, mainly heretics, limited confession, but that was never a church-wide practice. And child baptism was always done. And the term Trinity is just a term, not a change in doctrine or understanding of such

Maybe I have the wrong impression but I always felt like the Orthodox churches are very interlinked with their respective countries and that it would be sort of weird for me as a Western European to attend one of those churches if I have nothing to do with the country. Catholicism always struck me as more universal in that way...

>>9932636
>but when they came back, being slaves to the state as they are rejected the legitimacy of the council
You do realize the state including the emperor backed the council?

>>9932653
We don't so much "wait", it's just that making any alteration of official position takes us a very, very long time to do, even if just in wording. We are like paranoid meth addicts when it comes to changing anything, that we believe the price we must pay to remain true to orthodoxy. If things could be quickly altered, we could too easily lose our way. A hundred years is seen as a reasonable wait

>>9931553
>Catholicism
Waaaaay better intellectuals. Orthodox are somewhat anti-intellectual if you ask me, and I was baptised in an Orthodox church.
>Orthodoxy
Better dogma. Much less changed than the Catholic dogma.

Take your pick.

>>9932658
How much of the conversion figures that get floated around are people marrying into it now that tribalism isnt that big a issue among Europeans and Arabs?

>>9932659
It's not weird, I tell you as a convert. Antiochian and OCA parishes are full English services in the U. S.

>>9932658
Your ignorance amazes me, but I guess that's why you are Orthodox.
Read the Church Fathers, chronologically.
And the Trinity isn't just a term, it includes an explanation based on adopted pagan metaphysics, that Father, Son and Spirit share a substance, but are different persons. Here substance is a key term.

>>9932677
You forgot the "Are the articles false?" part of the question.

>We don't so much "wait", it's just that making any alteration of official position takes us a very, very long time to do, even if just in wording.

What are some other offical positions that have changed?

>>9932687
The ousia/hypostasis distinction is just the distinction between species and specimen (humans also share one ousia/substance), according to the Cappadocian Fathers. Sure, Athanasius used the term "ousia" in Aristotles use, but the species/specimen distinction wasn't "discovered" by "pagan metaphysics".

>>9932690
We don't change any position on doctrine except in wording. We do change canons, though

>>9932686
>Marrying into it doesn't require conversion and conversion is probably harder

That doesn't really answer my question. I didn't say it was a requirement for marriage. I was hoping there might be actual statistics. -Even your own article says that the majority of converts are for marriage rather than people seeking Christ.

>>9932406
>We
Who's "we"? There is no one Orthodox church and you're a LARPing Westerner who was born in a different faith and handpicked orthodoxy when you last went religion shopping.

>>9932700
>We do change canons, though
What are the canons that have been changed?

>>9932709
I would say converts to Greek come mostly through marriage, but OCA and Antiochian for other reasons. Greeks are more ethnic, BUT people who convert for marriage in 100% of the cases I've seen, it was because they a lot of exposure to the faith through their spouse and loved it

>>9932712
No, I spent years as a catechumen and I practice the fasts.

>>9932696
Considering it was taken from the philosophy of the time, where the most important authorities were pagan and that the schools which taught many of the fathers, from Justin Martyr and Anexagoras to st. Augustine, it's pretty safe to assume they simply cartied the knowledge over, after all natural metaphysics isn't a revealed religion. Substance is different from species on the other hand and it's closer to identity than anything else, hence the persons are consubstantiental. They used terms of philosophy because it shed light and helped everyone understand the Trinity with a reason, they could and would have avoided the terminology if they didn't want to connect it with Aristote. It's not an uncommon view amongst the Fathers to compare Plato to a prophet because he prepared the way for Christ amongst the pagans.

>>9932713
Bishops have to be celibate for instance, not a requirement of the early church.

>>9932722
>Substance is different from species on the other hand and it's closer to identity than anything else
Wrong. According to the Cappadocian Fathers, it is just general category. But we say one God instead of three gods because God is acts as one (one energia/operation)--Christ says for instance he only does what the Father does.

Some fathers (you have to be saint to be one for us) found Plato useful to bring pagans to the faith. Chrysostom said he was a moron, though

>>9932717
>I would say converts to Greek come mostly through marriage,but OCA and Antiochian for other reasons.

Is that just anecdote or are there some statistics or records online for that kind of thing?

>it was because they a lot of exposure to the faith through their spouse and loved it

Or perhaps its just an anecdote. In my experience 100% people who Ive seen marry into the Serbian Orthodox Church tended to do it to make their wives families happy and just become another holiday christian. However I don't think it would be reasonable to make any conclusions on that alone.

>>9932727
Is that it?

The schism is unrepairable, Catholicism is in decline because of their doctrinally-unsound modernization, Orthodoxy doesn't have the same intellectual vain running through it that makes it truly compatible with /lit/.

>>9932738
There's a lot of things like that. Priest celibacy, baptism of children and multiple confessions (people used to be baptized late in life and often before death so confession wasn't something you could do multiple times, it was also public), changes in terminology from primitive theology of Herma's Sheppard and Didache to complex language of Athanasius of Alexandria and Augustine, later on defining purgatory as such (they used to pray for the dead as well and Christ speaks of the purgation many will go through) and so on are 'developments' or rather clarifications of what was already implicit into what's explicit. Really people here should give John Henry Newman a try, best theologian of the 19th century. Scheeben is great as well, but it's foundational theology.

>>9932745
The modernisation is slowly turning around again. Heresy usually brings around a rebirth, like it was with the Arians or Protestants, and soon with the modernists. The hated manuals and scholastics that were thrown out after V2 are now slowly being reprint. 10 years ago getting a copy of Scheeben or Garrigou-Lagrange was impossible, now they are all reprint and on Archive.

>>9932738

It was forbidden by the canons in ancient times for priests to eat in restaurants (since gambling and prostitution were generally connected with them). We changed that. There are probably dozens of canons that have changed, I wouldn't know them all. Canons are rules that are very useful, but not taught by Christ and the Apostles and therefore subject to becoming obsolete or changed

>>9932749
>eople used to be baptized late in life and often before death
That was because penance was onerous and so some put off as long as ppossible to avoid it, not because of church policy against baptizing children

Orthodox pray for people in hell, not purgatory

Newman is wrong

>>9932754
Like the subjugation of the Jews. It is allowed, but not necessary.

>tfw Catholicism appears to be dying out in my country
>tfw I'm the youngest in church at 20 yo
>tfw nobody has the faith, not because they chose so but because they simply don't care
>tfw I've never even met another believer my age

I feel so alone

>>9932749
Baptism of children has been practised since the 1st-century, It was recorded in the Didache.

>multiple confessions wasn't something you could do multiple times
Multiple and frequent confessions was the norm by the 3rd century and canonized by the 5th century.

>it was also public
Not always, and In the case of mortal sins they have always been confession privately to the priest alone.

>>9932763
Nobody can get out of Hell and different Orthodox churches will explain why they pray for the dead differently.
You haven't read Newman. Try it. Very useful. There hasn't been such a learned theologian since. It's impressive than the 350 page essay has 100 pages of footnotes and references.

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>>9932766
What country? younger people mostly attend FSSPX churches.

>>9932768
I'm well aware that it was by the 3rd century. But it wasn't the norm for the very first community and baptism of children wasn't the norm. Augustine was baptized when he was in his late teens if I remember correctly. I know it was postponed once when they realised he wasn't about to die.
Only the priest would be aware of the specific sins, but the rite would be public.

>>9932775
>Augustine was baptized when he was in his late teens if I remember correctly
That's because Augustine was a pagan who converted to Christianity, and even as a pagan he was unsanctimonious.

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>>9932766
All we can do is proclaim the Gospel and remain in the Faith. We should never cease proclaiming the Gospel, but at the same time, the salvation of a person's soul is ultimately up to them. If the young people of this age don't adhere to Catholicism, that's their fault, not the Church's. Especially because so many of them have such terrible reasons for it.

>muh gay friends

>>9932781
He wasn't a pagan, what are you talking about?
His father was a pagan, but he also converted to Christianity due to his wife's prayer.

>>9932795
Read his Confessions, Augustine was a Manichaeist until he met Ambrose in his late 20's and only converted to Christianity in his early 30's.

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Russian literature is far from being orthodox.
Read Leontiev to get the most orthodox thinker.

Everything that Russia produced literary after Peter the Great is full of heresies even for the schismatics themselves (Pushkin was occidentalist, Gogol was a weird mystic, Dostoyevsky had luck because he was friends with Pobiedonostsev, Tolstoï was excommuniated, and so on).

Just because the schismatics are so cucked since 1700s and even more since 1917 that they don't condemn extremely bizarre paganism, gnosticism, hegelianism, theosophy and other shits in their literature doesn't mean that their novellists and poets aren't themselves out of the original tradition.

Catholicism (or "papists", as they tend to call us like their Lutherian friends) at least made very clear what was and was not orthodox (and that, even nowadays when the clergy is sadly in bad shape, thanks to the voices of high-ranked clergymen but also to less-highly regarded Catholic groups like the SSPX).

>>9932766
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=17uFqmlu34b50_lR0i75L3gizEa4&hl=fr&ll=47.91192691571147%2C8.09601880739956&z=6

>>9932805
That's not a pagan, or what's usually taken by that word in the Roman context. I know he was a manechean, but he was one as you say in his 20s and his near death baptism was supposed to happen in his teens.
>>9932806
Hegel through Blondel is the most important philosopher for (((Catholic))) theology of the 20th century. Becoming versus being is the main contesting line for the traditionalists and the modernists.

>>9932813
Hegel is a fucking occultist and an enemy of all Christians.

>>9932856
While that may be true, he is the chief influence on the theology of our current pope. Development of doctrine has such a bad name to it is because they use Newman only to really give Hegel a pass.

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>Faith without works

>>9932871
So there's no faith at all?

>>9932624
>That is why they even have a Purgatory, a celtic influence, to give souls a chance.
Literally don't give a shit about christfaggism but where the fuck are you getting a celtic influence from? There is literally nothing resembling purgatory in any Celtic tradition. Stop making shit up you retard, and if you heard it from someone else stop being a lazy fuck and question what you read, especially if it confirms your biases.

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>Which side has produced the best literature?

>>9932624
Ariel toll houses where you get tested by demons is fare more reasonable

>>9932931
It's funny to which extents they'll go not to admit they were wrong.

>>9932813
l m a o

Garrigou-Lagrange and Gilson are far more important.
Blondel is like the Nouvelle Théologie, only modernists are following their path, and they are becoming fewer and fewer.

>>9932973
Gilson and Garrigou-Lagrange are important for Catholic theology, Blondel for (((Catholic))) theology. The second Vatican Council is such a problematic one because they refused to use neo scholasticim as basis and went for a more poetic approach, which turns out is a pretty dumb move, as a role of a council is promulgation of doctrine, not being a fun read.

>>9933018
it's a pastoral council

>>9933135
That word means nothing really.

Orthodox have some cool additional books in their deuterocanon, so they win out for me.

>>9932021
>All that matters in the end is following the teachings of Christ with full sincerity. End of story.
The problem is that denominations have different ideas about what following the teachings of Christ means.

>>9933214
If you are a Protestant you adhere to private judgement as the ultimate and final decider and it becomes completely dependent upon your whims.

>>9931553
Intellectually Catholics are superior

Orthodoxy is appealing though. The mysticism of it in particular

>>9933225
Just low church protestants. High church protestants like Anglicans and Lutherans have catechisms and such.

>>9931553

F I L I O Q U E
I
L
I
O
Q
U
E

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Daily reminder that the via media Anglicanism is the true way. Come home, Anglo man.

Henry VIII did nothing wrong.

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>>9933266
>Catholics literally think it's acceptable to edit the Nicene creed so dumb German hillbillies can understand it

>>9933447
>>9933266

The East had trouble not only with the Holy Spirit but with the Son as well. They gave the world the Arian heresy after all. At least it presented the West the opportunity to present to the world a clear and correct understanding through the Creeds

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>>9932769 #
>Nobody can get out of Hell
Wrong. They absolutely can, this was the response Saint Mark of Ephesus gave Catholics when they said Orthodox must accept Purgatory since they pray for the dead. Kallistos Ware, the foremost theologian of the Constantinopolitan church also affirms we pray for the damned, as does Hilarion Alfeyev (the foremost theologian of the Russian church and most likely her next patriarch), who says salvation is surely possible for all up until the general resurrection

>>9932775 #
>Augustine was baptized when he was in his late teens if I remember correctly.
Yes, and he said his mother ought to have had him baptized as an infant since it would have given him strength against sin

>>9932958 #
We believe Christ renders final judgement but Satan renders particular judgement. This is attested overtly in Athanasius' "Life of Saint Anthony". Satan is the accuser and the warden of the world, he seeks to do nothing but prosecute us. But anything you are cleanse by Christ of, he cannot hold against you. You will be accountable to your master when you die; if you serve the devils, you will be accountable to them.

>>9933266 #
It was originally rejected by the Popes and even formally condemned. The Filioque says that Spirit being given temporally by the Son (and the Son is given temporally by the Spirit, being conceived by him) is an eternal relation of the Son as the Spirit's source of existence. This doctrine almost completely obliviates the major change that happened at Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit came to guide the Church and give EVERYONE access to mystical encounter with God previously only for prophets Unfortunately the Filioque was later accepted by Rome when the Pope came to be a replacement for the function of the Spirit of Truth. Then, as a consequence Catholicism slowly abandoned her mystical roots: Isaac the Syrian and John of the Ladder, loved in the west during Middle Ages (and still important in Orthodoxy), became the obscure concern of academics in the west.

>>9933457
The West didn't give us the Nicene Creed. It was a Palestinian Creed modified by Athanasius in Greek, then later translated to Latin. The west hardly had any presence at the first Ecumenical Council, and Rome's legates were irrelevant to the decision making process

>>9933447
That's the very point of a creed in the first place.

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Who /non-canon/ here?

>>9932886
There was a cave called St Patrick's Purgatory, they really believed that people who enter there and manage to come back would be purified of their sins. That's why it is a celtic influence.

>>9932278
That the Kingdom of God is within you (Luke 17:21). Augustine claimed that the Kingdom of God was the Catholic Church (Ergo Ecclesia et nunc est regnum Christi regnumque coelorum), which could then insert itself as the mediator between Man and God. This institution then, and not the teachings Jesus, became the basis of religion. True religion is the personal relationship with God

>>9933538
The teachings of Christ do not exist without his Church. Remove the Church and they become anything you want. Therefore the two cannot be in conflict because one does not exist without the other. Christ founded the Church to preserve them from corruption, such as those of Luther, Calvin, Arius, Mohamed and numerous other heresiarchs.

>>9933563

Correction: the church doesn't exist without the teachings of Christ

>>9933563
Jesus didn't found any church. His preaching was based on the inner change of each individual. As for Matthew 16:18-19 this is very likely a later interpolation to legitimize the Popes.
Paul could be called the real founder of the Church. His epistles, however, focused on the death and reincarnation of Jesus, not on His life and teachings. I think he mentions an actual teaching of Jesus only once or twice.

We have to thank the Catholic Church for one thing: They preserved the Gospels. Without this institution these would have likely been lost. But has the Church conveyed the true message of Jesus throughout the ages? Hardly imo.

>>9931876
>we believe even those in hell can still be saved, at least prior to general resurrection, and that is why we pray for the dead
wtf i hate orthodoxy now
link please

>>9932053
your scriptural reference is terrible

>>9932624
i despise catholicism as well, but let's not pretend that constantine did anything with christianity because he sincerely believed—he was a political actor looking for an identity to unite the roman empire beyond tribe and custom. christianity just so happened to fit the bill.

>>9933538
The Orthodox Church is literally, ontologically Christ (Ephesians 1:22-23). We didn't get that from Augustine but he affirmd it.

>>9933646
I don't have a link, I got it from the work "Orthodox Christianity" (specifically volume 2), by Hilarion Alfeyev, who also references Mark of Ephesus. Kallistos Ware, Orthodox Way, goes even further, saying that while presuming universal reconciliation (including satan) is heresy, praying for it is quite good. Orthodox believe the fires of hell are God's love (Saint Isaac the Syrian elaborated the most on this) but experienced in either shame or hatred of him. The fires are radiant bliss if you love and commune with God.

>>9933658
It says the Church is the fullness of God who fills all. Christ's body and fullness are not ontologically seperate from Christ. When you sin, you seperate yourself from the Church, and when you repent, you open back up to unification through Communion (which, according to Paul, is harmful if you haven't repented, he even says it it can kill you)

>>9933636
The Church doesn't exist without the teachings of Christ, we cannot get the teachings of Christ without the Church.
>>9933639
The very first Christians disagree with you, and I mean the first century people who knew John the Evangelist. Clement of Rome is a very important figure in this.
And the true message is something, outside the Church, nobody can agree on or understand.

>>9933663
Is that why he outlawed gladiator fights and infanticide, concubinage and killing one's slave?

No. In fact Constantine did not make Christianity the state religion despite being sympathetic, he ONLY LEGALIZED it (yet refused to thank the pagan gods in his triumph, unprecedented for a Roman emperor). And it was hardly a unifying force, Christians had intense religious divisions amongst themselves over things pagans didn't care about.

>>9931553
What is it that makes Orthodox posters so annoying?

>>9933667
Ephesians is a Pauline Epistle. Paul's legitimacy as an Apostle is based on a doubtful hallucination on his road to Damascus. Your church rests on a fragile foundation.

>>9933675

Nowhere in the teachings and life of Jesus do we find any of the rigid dogmatism that was demanded by the Catholic Church. That one cannot find Jesus or God outside the Church is a typically Catholic dogma that only serves to spiritually enslave people. And anyone who tried to find their own way to Jesus was burned at the stake. I am happy to disagree with the early Church fathers like Augustine, Tertullian, Cyprian or Clement of Rome (who taught to hate the present world (2 Clement 6)). Jesus was a life-affirmer, not a life-denier. I will not submit to any dogma in my understanding of the Gospels. Here I have to agree with Luther - every man is his own priest. That doesn't mean I'm particularly fond of Protestantism either

>>9933702
We're very vocal and uncompromising and polemical . I'm pretty sure we're the only Christians who unironically still use the term "heresy" on a regular basis irl.

>>9933688
i never said he made christianity the state religion. the two major crises of division happened after he legalized it in 313. the first was the donatists whining that theirs was the true faith, not the catholics. the second was the arian controversy which started in 318. of course, this culminated in the council of nicea in 325, once the arian question had divided the eastern half of the empire.

also, he didn't *just* legalize christianity—he granted economic concessions to priests and bishops that freed them from their civic duties. furthermore, christians were given preferment in the army and the civil service.

it was wrong of me to question constantine's belief, but he still was a quasi-pagan and a political actor unto his death.

>>9933710

Yeah, a random hallucination made him defect from a position of enormous prestige to become a pauperous, celibate outcast who was scourged and stoned and imprisoned repeatedly.

>>9933720
He had a very fanatical, almost schizophrenic, personality, both as Saulus and as Paulus. That doesn't make his claim any stronger

>>9933720

people have breakdowns, it's not unusual.

>>9933715
>but he still was a quasi-pagan and a political actor unto his death.
He changed a lot after killing his wife and son for sleeping together. According to pagan historians he suffered tremendous guilt as a result and became fixated on absolving himself through Christ and surrounding himself with bishops

>>9933710
You are just a down the line Protestant. You are essentially confirming that there is no real meaning in Christ outside the framework of his Church (that is His body). Nobody is right, except you, there was never a continuity of meaning.
The dogmatism that is nowhere in his words according to you is everywhere according to someone else and there is no ground for agreement on anything whatsoever. Christ said infinitely contradictory things and his words are just a paravane for whatever you a priori assumed is such.
>>9933711
You mean... Like large numbers of Catholics, Protestants and various other groups?

>>9933726
>almost schizophrenic, personality
How?

Paul was a pretty benevolent guy judging from 1 Corinthians: 1-13

>>9933731
I don't think you know what a breakdown is. It's not a zealous turn toward a much more demanding lifestyle for the rest of your life

>>9933738
I never said I was right. I only said I don't believe the Church to be right. As you said, Jesus' teachings can be interpreted any which way (and they have); I prefer to interpret them as I see fit, not as taught by any earthly intermediary. I believe the soul is the representative of god on this earth, not the Church or the Pope. Nobody should possess the right to bind or release anyone, and least of all as the representative of God. Why should I adhere slavishly to any papal bull or the Fourth Council of the Lateran? I could never trust an institution with a history of pia fraus and forged decrees like the Donation of Constantine.
We are obviously not going to agree and that is fine. If you believe you have found God through the Church then good for you. I believe God can be found outside of it. I have to leave the thread now. Thank you for the discussion and have a nice day

>>9933748
Yeah, Paul seems like a pretty cool dude, although a bit of a big head ("Jesus explained everything to me guys, anyone aside from me and the 12 disciples is false. Also I'm the most jewish jew ever so no one can correct me on my beliefs about the Law)

Pseudo-Paul is a bit of a dick though, Titus and 1-2 Timothy are more about rigid ways to worship and live.

>>9933754


People have eschewed vast amounts of physical possessions and lavish lifestyles before Saul (Mahavira, Shakyamuni), maybe they had breakdowns too, maybe not, but Saul is not unique. But he is special to you and that's okay.

Neither.

Gnosis>Faith.

>>9933790
>Why should I adhere slavishly to any papal bull or the Fourth Council of the Lateran?
Exactly because Christ gave it the authority. Because it is observing now your own whims and trying to fit God into that, but immersing yourself within a tradition of immense wealth of people that devoted their lives to God. It's a thing of intellectual modesty,

>>9933821
This. We need to follow the successors of St. Peter, like Alexander VI who virtuously promoted nepotism, pretended he could predict the future, had mistresses, and giving permission to governments to invade and enslave whole continents. Anyone questioning that isn't practicing intellectual modesty.

>>9933797
I'm saying he didn't do that because of a breakdown or some hallucination. Call him delusional if you will, but he wasn't mentally ill by any means, he was entirely sincere and 100% compatible with the Gospels . In fact the Gospels are only coherent in the framework espoused by Paul

>>9932032
What the actual fuck

>>9933957
"Development of doctrine," he said! "The Pope will protect the Church," he said!

One is a church of pure contemplation, Orthodoxy.
The other, Catholic Church, is anal about legalism and constantly contradicts itself with its perverted outbursts among its clergy.

>>9933957
You probably don't follow what's happening in the Vatican if you think that's bad, just today, a couple of hours ago the Pope is so determined that the next pope can't demolish his and the Vatican 2's heresie he formally declared that the Church can't undo any changes to the liturgy.

Catholicism is quite literally dying.

>>9933889
The pope is not the Church.

>>9934027
You realize there's a difference between Francis and previous bad popes right? previous bad popes were selfish, they didn't care about the Church and didn't change liturgy, Francis is the literal opposite, he believes what he's doing is right and is willing to sacrifice everything to keep the Church relevant but he's too suborn and vain to realize he's having the literal opposite effect.

>>9934026
If a legitimate ecumenical council had promulgated heresy all epistemic basis for Church authority would be proven false, which is why it cannot be formal heresy of the council itself. That's the main problem with sedes, for them the Catholic Church was actually overcome by the gates of Hell. Come to think of it they hate the Church as much as the schismatics.
The only consistent answer is what BXVI proposed, but a bit more scholastic.

>>9934015
>One is a church of pure contemplation, Orthodoxy.
That's totally wrong. You should read The Ladder of Divine Ascent. Mystical theoria must have a holy life as a foundation, or else you'll incur God's wrath for your hubris, or be deceived by devils preying on your pride.

>>9934037
>You realize there's a difference between Francis and previous bad popes right?
Francis is worse for the most part indeed
>previous bad popes were selfish, they didn't care about the Church and didn't change liturgy, Francis is the literal opposite, he believes what he's doing is right and is willing to sacrifice everything to keep the Church relevant but he's too suborn and vain to realize he's having the literal opposite effect.
Francis is intensifying the traditionalist rebirth far more than Benedict did exactly because of what he is trying to do. It's a big wake up call. There's a reason why TLM parishes are popping up, why Scheeben and Garrigou-Larange are getting reprint, why nobody older than 30 gives a shit about Rahner and so on.

>>9934027
>"on this rock I will build my church"
Sure thing, Pius

>>9932015
The German Church is a bad example. Its especially messed up because it receives tax money. They try to alienate as few people as possible so cafeteria Catholics continue to check "Catholic" on the census, which keeps the euros flowing. American bishops have their bad apples but are far more orthodox on the whole.

>>9932709
To be fair my RCIA class was 1/2 people marrying Catholics, 1/4 cradle Catholics who for some reason weren't confirmed earlier, and 1/4 general converts

>>9932766
Most Catholic churches I've been to have Young Adult groups (bible study, theology on tap, etc.). If the parish doesn't, the diocese should. Latin Mass parishes tend to skew younger as well.

>>9934026
That was only binding on Pope Francis. Any successor of his could change it. Stop reading OnePeterFive and similar sensationalist rags

>>9934037
You can say that about the previous bad popes, but their incompetence and corruption led to the Reformation. How much damage from Francis will still be felt after the everyone in the current College of Cardinals turns 80?

>>9934142
Not him but OnePeterFive is great and a statement that isn't in a document of authority can be easily overturned, probably will at some point so this isn't too ba.

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>>9934151
This. Everyone needs to realize that Francis, and his buddies Marx, Schonborn, etc., aren't some bad new turn for the Church. More than anything, they're a last gasp. These guys are the ass end of the Vatican 2 generation of priests and bishops, and they're trying as hard as they can to ram through the most heterodox, "open" interpretations of the council as they can before they all die. Many men younger than them in the clergy came up through John Paul and Benedict, and they are far more conservative. The whole reason Francis and his cabal are going all-out is because they know this is their last chance.

But if we hold the line now, and weather the storm, brighter days are ahead.

>>9931553
Someone well-read in both literatures (a number of readers well-read in one or the other) should do a recommendation thread the way there is for Science Fiction and Fantasy.

>>9935058

Schonborn was instrumental in Benedict's election, and Benedict appointed Marx

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>>9932766
I am almost certain that the reason most young people are becoming atheists is because we're so over-stimulated by screens and sugar that we can't HEAR God anymore, we can't discern his role in our lives. Everyone these days gets bored and anxious if they aren't doing multiple things at once. I think the key to getting more young people on board is to show them the value of silence and simplicity. Also, with society becoming more and more secular (and nonsensical), the Church is a means of resistance, or at the very least a lifeboat in this sinking ship world.

t. 21 year old Catholic, converted last year.

>>9933489

i got the nag hammadi in the mail. gonna get the deuterocanon and some of the non-gnostic apocrypha and esoteric stuff soon.

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>>9935425
Benedict appointed Marx, but I don't see how you can look at Marx's subsequent career and see him as anything but an opposite to Benedict. Interesting that they're both Germans, though. Mueller is German too and he's pretty solidly orthodox.

>>9932214
>Celtic Orthodox

nigga wat

>>9933538
>within you

that's a mistranslation, senpai. nothing else in the text supports that. "in your midst" is a much better rendering

>>9933447
>open it up.jpeg

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I never see a sentiment like pic related in anything given by Catholics. That plus the awful pedo scandal (still ongoing)? Leads me to believe that the people who make up their Church are closer to Jesus and his word. Just from what I have seen.

>>9936288
>hides the saints name to make sure that no one knows that they were a Catholic saint

>>9936288
As a Catholic I am actually pretty grateful for the Church's legalistic tendencies. Your feelings can betray you. Your conscience can be fooled. But if you have faith in Christ and his Church and follow its teachings, you'll achieve Heaven. Humans are fallible, but Scripture and Tradition are not.

>>9936310
Where does faith come from? If it does not come from a feeling, then I think that it must come from reason. And while feelings can't be trusted, I don't know if reason can be trusted either. Many absurd things can be made to sound reasonable, can't they?

>>9936315
Newman has already been recommended in this thread, but I'll recommend him again, specifically some of the sermons he delivered while he was an Anglican prelate at Oxford University. He talks quite a bit about faith in it. For Newman, faith isn't about feeling but it's not about normal reasoning, either. Faith is a separate mode of knowing--a surety beyond surety, a different category of reason distinct from what we normally think of. That's why it can know things for certain without evidence. Faith is more than mere feelings. It has to be, or else men wouldn't be willing to die for it.

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>>9936369

>>9936310
>Tradition isn't fallible
REV UP THOSE PAID INDULGENCES

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>>9936476
I fucking love Burke. No man who believes the Fatima prophecies can be wicked. He's basically the Athanasius of our time.

>>9936144
Marx is the opposite but he is a lot more representative of the post Vatican II crop than Benedict is

>>9936144
This guy was also appointed by Benedict

>Bishop Bonny has called for ecclesiastical recognition of gay relationships, according to an interview published in De Morgen, a Belgian newspaper, on Dec. 27. The official teaching that the Catholic church can recognize only male-female committed relationships has to change, Bonny said. "There should be recognition of a diversity of forms," he said. "We have to look inside the church for a formal recognition of the kind of interpersonal relationship that is also present in many gay couples. Just as there are a variety of legal frameworks for partners in civil society, one must arrive at a diversity of forms in the church. … The intrinsic values are more important to me than the institutional question. The Christian ethic is based on lasting relationships where exclusivity, loyalty, and care are central to each other."

>>9936480
You don't know what Tradition is, but there's nothing wrong with them per se.

>>9936635
Benedict was a child of V2 that later on changed, but the change wasn't powerful enough for him to gain strictness and restore the then loathed 'fortress mentality'.

>>9936740
Supererogation is heretical, as nd since indulges are the selling of supererogation, there is something wrong with them

>>9932636
>There's no figure in Orthodoxy that can compare not to Aquinas, but his commentators even.
Gregory of Nyssa, Basil of Caesarea, Gregory of Nazianzus, John of Damascus... John Zezioulas, Vladika Nikolaj, Justin Popović... When are you starting your reading, anon?
You know nothing about our church.

>>9932659
>catholicism
>more universal
I agree. It's for everyone who was left out Orthodox Christianity is for the chosen people. Many are invited but few are chosen. Matthew 22:14

>>9931570
t. slav

>>9932636
Of course when it comes to scholasticism Orthodoxy can't be compared to Catholicism, probably because of the churches gave birth to it and heavily relies on it ever since, while the other focuses on a different thing? It's like saying "There's no figure in Catholicism that can be compared not to Andrey Rublev, but to the people whom he has influenced even."

>>9937098
>probably because one of the churches

>>9937024
Yup, none can compare to Aquinas.

>>9937098
You might as well say Michelangelo for Rublev. In terms of power of thought, nothing Orthodoxy offers comes close and history of philosophy shows it, while for the art comparison it doesn't. It has a lot of magnificent art, but not nearly as much of powerful philosophy.

>>9937398
There is zero spiritual value in both scholasticism and Michangelo's homoerotica. Both are technical brilliance, but that's quite different. We frankly don't WANT scholasticism or classical style iconography in our Church. We had to fight very hard to purge them. We stress asceticism as our aesthetic even in our splendor

>>9937398
>but not nearly as much of powerful philosophy.
I might add we also DO NOT WANT "powerful philosophy" in the wordly sense. We are only concerned with mysticism and living a holy life.

See
>>9933460
>The Filioque says that Spirit being given temporally by the Son (and the Son is given temporally by the Spirit, being conceived by him) is an eternal relation of the Son as the Spirit's source of existence. This doctrine almost completely obliviates the major change that happened at Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit came to guide the Church and give EVERYONE access to mystical encounter with God previously only for prophets Unfortunately the Filioque was later accepted by Rome when the Pope came to be a replacement for the function of the Spirit of Truth. Then, as a consequence Catholicism slowly abandoned her mystical roots: Isaac the Syrian and John of the Ladder, loved in the west during Middle Ages (and still important in Orthodoxy), became the obscure concern of academics in the west.

>>9937398
You cannot compare Michelangelo to Rublev, as Rublev created icons. That's what I was getting at, scholasticism is something characteristic of Catholicism, so it's impossible to compare both doctrines on their achievements in this particular subject, as you can't compare Rublev to Michelangelo.

On what grounds does either declare to be the true church? I've only heard a lot of dogmatism from Catholics with no exegetical or historical proof that I can think of.

>>9937969
Catholics say that because the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) was historically seen as the senior Bishop, he's the head of the church. Eastern Orthodox say the Bishop of Rome is only top in prestige, and that the church is run by autocephalous patriarchs with their own jurisdictions.

Also there was a bunch of political dick-waving between the papacy and the Byzantine empire in the middle ages.

>>9938046
Patriarchs don't run churches, they just preside over the synod of bishops who do. That synod must be assembled for the Patriarch to exercise any authority beyond his immediate see.

>>9938769
hey my man, did you take the vows yet

>>9932015
>pushing for acceptance of gays in Catholicism
>literally called Cardinal Marx
>Marx

>>9931553
My dick.

>>9938812
Yes, I've recieved Holy Illumination

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>>9938840
Cool.

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>>9938046
There's also the fact that the pope claims to be the successor of Saint Peter, and in the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus Christ himself appears to found the Church upon Peter's head.

>When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”

>They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

>“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

>Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

>Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter,b and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hadesc will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will bed bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will bee loosed in heaven.” Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.