Joyce is the cancer Beckett is the answer

based

>>9930767
Anyone who thinks Post-Modernism is degeneracy and Modernism was more respectful to Western Civilization needs to read Beckett

>>9930783
Challenge accepted, which book?

>>9930799
Start with his plays:
Krapp's Last Tape -> Happy Days -> Endgame -> Waiting for Godot -> Not I

If you dig it then read the trilogy

>>9930783
hahaha this. Although it is hotly debated whether Beckett is a modernist or a post-modernist.

>>9930767

Why not both?

Not every question has just one answer.

!

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>>9930767
Becket is to Joyce as DFW is to Pynchon.

>>9930830
I can't tell if you're shitposting or a moron. Those are among the most try hard things I've ever read.

My guess is Joyce is over your head, too difficult to get through, so you hide behind this phony.

>>9931066

Fuck DFW and Pynchon.

All you cunts: read Beckett and Joyce.

>>9931066
>tryhard
An interesting and valid criticism. Clearly you are an authority on these matters.

Godot is an okay read but it really has to be seen for the full effect

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>tfw there is finally a Beckett thread
Oh this is a happy day!

>>9931076

Of course - it's a fucking script. Christ on a bike.

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>>9931066
>tryhard
>dude comparing Joyce to Pinecone

Joyce = BRAP posters

Beckett = intelligent, nihilistic with a wicket sense of humour Chad posters

>>9931100
Its more like Joyce is both of those, Beckett is Bane posters

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>>9931076
He has a very similar issue as DFW. All the symbols are empty and clang annoyingly—which is what happens when you fake it.

In fact, the difference is simply the mysticism that lives in Pyncho-Joycean symbols—which Beckett & DFW's boring automata don't have.

>>9931071
No reason not to read Beckett if you've run out of quality things to read or need to see this gar—I mean Krapp for yourself.

>>9931104

No idea what any of you are on about - both are great, read em both, you have time for both.

You fucking people.

>>9931104
Beckett posters are like your MoMA uncle dabbling in poetry at the Hudson Valley Writers Club.

>>9931112
What a load of hot air

>>9931090
>using the Bloom face
>to complain about comparing Joyce to Pinecone
>not knowing Bloom himself does this

I love /lit/

>>9931112

You are talking absolute fucking horseshit.

>>9931121
This isn't the fucking New Yorker, how about using some reference points us average Joes can get without googling

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Beckett and Joyce are both great. They also knew were friends and admired each others work (albeit Joyce only read Murphy due to being dead post 1941).

Also watch this performance of Endgame. Gambon is amazing. I'm obsessed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ok7Vc3jczNg

>Magee version is best Krapp btw

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>>9931131
Bloom is a fucking pseud meme but he has a funny face

>>9931112
There's literally no such thing as an empty symbol, at that point its just a thing. Christ think before you vomit your opinions on others

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>>9931132
Care to back that up? Expand a bit?

Beckett and DFW's symbolism transcends simple references? Any examples?

>>9931134
I thought we were all incredibly cultured here

>>9931071
why not all of them? i like all four of them, some less than others, but they're all fantastic authors.

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>>9931143
>point any out
>haha that didn't fulfill my vague undefinable criteria!

Kindly get fucked

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How many of you cunts are Yanks.

>putting Joyce-Beckett in the same sentence as that bandana wearing cunt and the one novel man

>>9931148
We've no time for middle brows, its go big or go home

>>9931158
>the one novel man
pynch? yeah, i can see that, if you haven't read any of his literature.

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>>9931044
>debated
>or just read his writings
twinkling irishman in universal french
come at me third policeman

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>>9931164
>hooked a yank

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>>9931142
So literal. Maybe Beckett is for autistic people, I don't know.

Limp symbols—that work better? Lame symbols? Useless ordering of symbols? Symbols that lead nowhere?

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>>9931164
>using literature as a synonym for books

This is some class act

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>>9931166
>not the superior at swim
you disappoint me.

>>9931172
Yes expressions which actually signify anything would be preferable friend

>>9931170
Our good authors are still alive lmao

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>>9931175
>implying pynchon isn't a first rate poet
it's almost like you want to commit the most plebeian faux pas in every post

>>9931181
For like five more years

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>>9931181
>good
>doesn't write 'great' because they don't have any

Absolute state of yank culture.

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>>9931152
A man reacting to tapes of himself talking falls flat on its face.

Humans as accessories to inanimate objects is much more interesting.

Speaking of which, anyone else notice McCarthy borrowing the Rachel fucking her car scene in V. for The Counselor?

>>9931200
>Humans as accessories to inanimate objects is much more interesting.

Durr if ya say so I guess thats that

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>>9931180
Idk 'Madame Psychosis' signified something, but no one is going to argue that symbolism went anywhere. See what I mean?

>>9931200
'borrowing'
is that the new term for plagiarism?

>>9931196
And they're all in their fucking 80s to boot, its sad to see someone mock another country for the same disease their own culture is dying of

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>>9931200
>A man reacting to tapes of himself talking falls flat on its face

What remains of all that misery? A girl in a shabby green coat on a railway station platform.

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>>9931196
'Good' because y'all don't even have good ones, let alone great. I guesssss you could argue McEwan. Idk famalam, just trying to be inclusive.

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>>9931212
>dying
Dead. Never seen a country more dead.

i don't think i've ever read a good british novel. and don't say sterne. the guy was born in ireland, so he doesn't count. i recall O'brien slamming the shit out of british literature. he was right.

>>9931210
Idk it's pretty bad, right?

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>>9931216
Yeah lmao it really is that bad. Beckett truly is a hack.

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>>9931221
>McEwan
Awful. Not denying we don't have any decent one nowadays. But we had the greatest writers in the English language. Our language. British culture is dead now. Butchered. With carrion men groaning for burial. American 'culture' was part of what ruined it.

>tfw the greatest ever yank poet ditched America and became a British citizen and even used a British accent

>>9931066
>phony
in what way is beckett a "phony"

I have heard a lot of stupid shit on /lit/. this might be the stupidest.

>>9931234
I think the big problem here is to get Beckett you have to understand harsh emotions and human spirit while reading Joyce (who I still love) you can just fall back on autistic literary games and pretend you're a deep reader

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>>9931227
>muh Orwell
>muh Dickens
>muh Defoe
>muh Brontes
>muh Tolkien
>muh Carrol
>muh Austen
>muh Burgess
>muh Eliot

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>>9931239
You must mean you had the greatest play-write.

Ireland had the best authors, followed by good old USA.

Have fun at the theatre, twinks. Ha-ha. Twinks.

>>9931239
>But we had the greatest writers in the English language.

You had Shakespeare and Milton but lets not get ahead of ourselves

>>9931087
there are beckett threads weekly

>>9931137
id say they were a bit more than admirers of one another- beckett wrote finnegans wake and joyce tried to get him to marry his retarded sister

>>9931227
kingsley wasnt so bad

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>>9931256
>denigrating the Bard
>not mentioning the English dominance of poetry
>'Ireland had the best authors' Possibly but Murica certainly didnt

Absolute state of the Yanks.

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>>9931252
You get Orwell.

>>9931251
>>9931246

Forced emotions or missing emotions? What do you mean harsh?

Joyce is incredibly moving, Beckett is not. Or what, what am I missing?

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>>9931267
>joyce tried to get him to marry his retarded sister
Absolute state of you.

>>9931275
>Joyce is incredibly moving

I don't disagree, but I'd like you to reference that, what moved you in Joyce?

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>>9931263
>the greatest writers in the English language.
>You had Shakespeare and Milton

Thank you for proving my point.

>>9931272
>not reading pynch
Wew, it's worth your time, it really is

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>>9931275
>Beckett isn't moving
Read his short story 'First Love'

>>9931279
Not him but Kinch the wandering Aengus is incredibly moving.

'Mother's deathbed. Candle. The sheeted mirror. Who brought me into this world lies there, bronzelidded, under few cheap flowers. Liliata rutilantium.

I wept alone.'

Also Bloom thinking of his father and son.

'They have no mercy on that here or infanticide. Refuse christian burial. They used to drive a stake of wood through his heart in the grave. As if it wasn't broken already. Yet sometimes they repent too late. Found in the riverbed clutching rushes. '

And at the end of Circe when Rudy appears before Bloom and is symbolised as the sacrificial lamb after all that madness in the brothel.

Incredibly moving. Just like Beckett is.

>>9931158

Mate, this is exactly it. /lit/ thinking these American authors even scratch the accomplishments of Joyce and Beckett is laughable.

>>9931181

Since when does that mean a fucking thing in literature?

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>>9931300
Its quite sweet really. They can't help but try to compete with the British Isles.

>>9931256

PLAY-WRITE

>>9931158
>
i dont put pynch or dfw on beckett/joyce level... but i do put melville and faulkner at least in the same conversation

>>9931305
*Northern European Archipelego

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>>9931307

>>9931308

Then keep your conversations to yourself.

>>9931314

And then Farage appears, and all pride in British culture goes down the shitter.

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>>9931313
Same thing.
>are you a salty Irishman?

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>>9931322
ISN'T IT FUNNY

>>9931295
yeah the ending of circe really hit me also

>>9931308
Melville may get a passing mention but Faulkner rode the coattails of Joyce.

>>9931335
>passing mention

Dude there would be no Ulysses without Moby Dick

>>9931279
VIRAG: (Agueshaken, profuse yellow spawn foaming over his bony epileptic lips.) She sold lovephiltres, whitewax, orangeflower. Panther, the Roman centurion, polluted her with his genitories. (He sticks out a flickering phosphorescent scorpion tongue, his hand on his fork.) Messiah! He burst her tympanum. (With gibbering baboon’s cries he jerks his hips in the cynical spasm.) Hik! Hek! Hak! Hok! Huk! Kok! Kuk!

Pretty electrifying

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>>9931350
>Dude there would be no Ulysses without Moby Dick
Post proof. From all I've read of Joyce (biographies, influences, personal library) there is not one single mention of Moby Dick or Melville.

>>9931364
Osmosis, subconscious absorption

>>9931364

I've been fucking around here, but I'm with you - really can think of no way that lineage holds up.

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>>9931369
Point out one part of Ulysses that was fundamentally in debt to Melville.

>>9931158
>pynchon
>one novel
His quality is actually pretty consistent. More consistent than Joyce's if you ignore Slow Learner.

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>>9931335
>rode the coattails of Joyce
Not even.

>>9931308
Pynchon can grab at JAAJ—DFW is basically the 21st century's Beckett. Same dumb fanboy type nonsense around both too.

>>9931305
My God you guys are awful looking fuckers.

>>9931374

Why Ulysses?

I personally don't think this anon will be able to find anything in Joyce's whole thang relating to Melville, but I was just wondering.

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>>9931382
>My God you guys are awful looking fuckers

>>9931380

Consistency isn't the point. Joyce has trajectory as an artist, and accomplishment more than most artists in any field.

Pynchon ends up writing Bleeding Edge.

>>9931392
I know the meme is inbreeding, but seriously, what went so wrong?

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>>9931386
'Dude there would be no Ulysses without Moby Dick'

Pay attention.

>>9931401

No idea. Maybe ask the Hollywood execs who are shipping in British actors like it's nobody's business.

>>9931400
And Joyce wrote Finnegans Wake. What's wrong with Bleeding Edge exactly?

>>9931374
I hold both of their missions to reify modern life to the status of classical epic to be a shared quest, though I will pass that whaling while banal and industrial is hardly as domestic the idea of using a stupid half minded beast as the central driving element is very inline with Joyce's fixations on pathological investigating into the seeming arbitrariness of modern life and economy.
A section that rings out to me is the parrelels between creating a scene out of the sermons in Melville's Nantucket and Joyce's own sermon. Both men had a strange bitter yet adoring relationship to the Church

>>9931412

Christ, this comment answers itself.

>>9931410
Pics?

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>>9931401

>>9931418
No argument guy sure doesn't have any arguments.

>>9931417
ZERO EVIDENCE

In fact it's highly unlikely that JAAJ would have been able to get a copy of Moby Dick. And psh no I don't have evidence for that claim.

>>9931417
>modern life to the status of classical epic to be a shared quest
Been done before Melville.
>What is Rape of the Lock

>Melville's Nantucket and Joyce's own sermon
Joyce's was in Portrait. Also he didn't need Melville for that. He got that sermon all from Dante and his own his experiences. Portrait was all about his own experiences as well of course.

>Both men had a strange bitter yet adoring relationship to the Church
Just like nearly every other writer before them.

>>9931402

We were looking for any influence on Joyce from Melville.

Imagine there was evidence that Melville could have influenced, for example Dubliners.

Dubliners is a precursor to Ulysses, and is a part of the creation of Ulysses in that it was the foundation of Joyce's modernism. Not entirely, put in part, such as in The Sisters and The Dead. (I won't bother explaining - and don't try to say that The Sisters is realist or naturalist and is therefore unrelated. It isn't.)

If Melville had any influence on, for example, Dubliners, then he indirectly influenced Ulysses as that is the flowering of the artistry in which Joyce was breaking ground is his earlier work.

That is why I asked: "Why only Ulysses?"

Fucking hell.

>>9931417
>Joyce's fixations on pathological investigating into the seeming arbitrariness of modern life and economy

Also quote whereabouts in Ulysses Joyce is supposedly 'fixated' on this.

>>9931434
>>9931435
Alright I'm sorry, I over reached. I didn't intend on asserting a literal descendency, more that they were fellow travellers

>>9931422

Seriously? Do I really have to go into it?

>>9931137
Were they really friends though? I seem to recall that Beckett was dating Joyce's daughter and then broke off the relationship suddenly, leaving a bad taste in JJ's mouth and the two didn't speak to one another, then JJ died.

>>9931439
>We were looking for any influence on Joyce from Melville.
No we weren't. 'Dude there would be no Ulysses without Moby Dick' is specifically about the supposed influence on Ulysses.
However, if you say that Melville influence Ulysses through Dubliners you therefore have to prove he influenced Dubliners in the first place. I'll wait patiently.

>I won't bother explaining
I don't doubt it.

>>9931442
>Also quote whereabouts in Ulysses Joyce is supposedly 'fixated' on this.

Sure, right from the opening when Buck was making a mock Church ritual out of his morning shave. Or appropriate to Melville Daedelus on the beech musing on the mass of all history and eons being swept up on Dublins shore

>>9931456
Can't hurt. If you even read it. It's quite beautiful.

>>9931460
>I seem to recall that Beckett was dating Joyce's daughter and then broke off the relationship suddenly, leaving a bad taste in JJ's mouth

Nah I think the story was she was fucking nuts with schizophrenia and Joyce was outright offended by Beckett seducing her in that vulnerability

>>9931460
Yes, quite good friends. Use to sit together all day, mostly in silence when Beckett wasn't typing out Work in Progress. They did drift apart when Beckett refused Lucia but that was only because Nora told James not to be friends with him anymore. They soon reconciled though.

>>9931461

Mate, we're in agreement. I don't think Melville influence Joyce, by any stretch.

>I don't doubt it.
Great judge of character.

>>9931461

>No we weren't
Shows a huge lack of understanding of the idea of artistic influence.

>>9931487
Nah, he's right.

>>9931478
Idk you seem kind of lame and dumb. It's like talking with someone actively on chemo. Which if you are, hey man, we're here for you.

>>9931470
>Joyce was outright offended by Beckett seducing her in that vulnerability
No. She was obsessed with Beckett and he didn't want to use her so he told her he was only interested in her father.

>>9931462
>seeming arbitrariness of modern life and economy
>a mock Church ritual out of his morning shave

What do they have to do with each other and where is that in Melville. Religious rituals have been mocked in Pope way before either.

>on the beech musing on the mass of all history and eons being swept up on Dublins shore

Same again. Where is that in Melville. More like Blake it seems to me.

Trained by owner to fetch and carry, basket in mouth. (He bares his arm and plunges it elbowdeep in Bloom’s vulva.) There’s fine depth for you! What, boys? That give you a hardon? (He shoves his arm in a bidder’s face.) Here wet the deck and wipe it round!

>>9931487
Shows a huge lack of you being unable to prove that Melville was fundamental to the writing of Ulysses

>>9931478
>Great judge of character
Sherlock quote by the way.
Can't resist.

>>9931492

Make some kind of comment of your own which isn't lame and dumb about the idea of artistic influence, and I'll tell you about my chemo.

>actively

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Christ I hate this board not having ID's. Can't keep track of all those who I'm currently arguing with.

>>9931512

You're arguing with me, you fucking cunt.

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>>9931517
Cheeky.

>>9931519
>>9931512
You've only, so far, made the black woman argument of making a face. Rise above you unevolved whitewashed ape.

>>9931524

He's arguing with me, not you.

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>>9931524
>>9931528
I'm going back to Brit/pol/. I feel like I'm arguing with shadows.

>>9931511
Influence is the dumbest thing to shoot the shit over. You can trace structures, symbols, rhetorical moves, even vocabulary—you can compare what books were available even. But that's all right there in your face & rather uninteresting. And when an author says so & so influenced them, they might just mean that they liked their work. Wow so interesting.

>>9931532
His reaction folder has burnt out. It was fun while it lasted.

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Godot?

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>>9931539
>His reaction folder has burnt out

>>9931537

Totally not lame.

Nor dumb.

>>9931537

Read the paper about Byron and Joyce. You'll flip your lid.

>>9931555
Why should I care?

>>9931550
Just say where it's lame and dumb, if it is. Nothing's on the line here, man. Just trying to cut through the garbage.

>>9931544
Jesus...

>>9930767
He was influenced by Joyce, who let him stay in his house for a while after Beckett's indecency trial in Ireland. You can even tell this from his early books where he emulates Joyce to a tee.

>>9931076
>Godot is an okay read but it really has to be seen for the full effect
Agreed. Although, it does feel weird being the only one in the theatre laughing at the humor

>>9931187
Kaczynski is going to live at least another 10.

>>9931087
There was anotherBeckett thread only a couple of days ago.. ??

wat u on aboot