holy shit. how is it possible for a marxist to read this and

>>9909995
what happened in the soviet union wasn't real marxism, retard

>>9910000
br8 b8 m8

>>9910000
>my special unique brand of communism has never been tried before
Your anarcho syndicalism free communitarian liberation movement is totes what Marx meant and everyone else had it wrong before you. You're commie Jesus here to provide all good socialists with their cummie state anon.

>>9909995
stalin did nothing wrong

>>9910000
read the book

>>9910013
He left some filthy Ukes and Polacks alive

>>9910000
what is real marxism?

>>9910010
Marxism
Definition
Popular Terms
A system of economic, social, and political philosophy based on ideas that view social change in terms of economic factors. A central tenet is that the means of production is the economic base that influences or determines the political life.
Under Marxism, outdated class structures were supposed to be overthrown with force (revolution) instead of being replaced through patient modification. It held that as capitalism has succeeded feudalism, it too will be removed by a dictatorship of the workers (proletariat) called socialism, followed quickly and inevitably by a classless society which governs itself without a governing class or structure.

Read more: http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/Marxism.html

see you idiot, what happened is russia is not like that.

The Gulag Archipelago is awesome. It's like NazBol Turner Diaries.

>>9910028
>implying the vanguard bolsheviks should have relinquished power while the disgusting crypto capitalists still lied in wait throughout russia ready to snuff out the light of the communist revolution

Added to the purge list.

>>9909995
well as the Memerson himself says "people should aim at the highest point they can see", so what's wrong with aiming for a perfect utopian society?

>>9910000

The oldest political meme ever.

NO TRUE SCOTSMAN

>be me
>marxist
>shits only marxist if no one dies brah
>win every argument with this line of thinking
feels good lads

>>9910028
Everyone note this. It's a crypto capitalist in action, sowing seeds of dissent against the pure revolution of Lenin. This is why the party couldn't dissolve itself. Pigs like this would quickly retake control of the country and oppress the proles with their selfish ways. We must remain strong and vigilant to stand against such horrid counter revolutionaries.

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>>9910049
>so what's wrong with aiming for a perfect utopian society?
utopia is the biggest meme of all time. read pic related

>>9910054
>implying utopia doesn't go back to Plato's Rememelic

>>9910058
>citing a literal retard who had to use discourse to get his shitty points across
undergrad pls go

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>>9909995
read this book by an actual libertarian Marxist who opposed Stalinism.

Serge>>>>>SolyenitSHIT

>>9910010

One such social formation is going to overtake liberal capitalism.

Stalinism was a project to turn feudal Czarist Russia into a spearhead for a global project of worker liberation. This is essentially impossible. Capitalism must first devour itself as a result of its culminating contradictions. Communism will begin to emerge when our means of production become too advanced for Capitalism to organize.

Even if the most basic intentions of the soviet project were possible, Stalin's theory was absolute shit.

>>9910050

Wew. Try this on for size:

"No Scotsman puts honey in his porridge"
"My neighbor Mr. Chan puts honey in his porridge."
"Mr. Chan is Chinese and therefore not an example of a Scotsman."

It would be a "no true scotsman" fallacy if there was no mass of scholarly argumentation to indicate that the USSR veered away from Marxian theory almost from its genesis.

>>9910053

Lenin murdered millions of innocent russian farmers and their families because they weren't 'down with the cause'. Are you seriously this retarded?

apolitical fag here. why do marxists have such a disgusting aura to them? every time i read the phrase marxist or libertarian i think of some disgusting soy ridden smelly disgusting piece of shit stinky larping whigger who smells really bad. are they tainted with this image for life? i mean ofc there are some of those people on the right but I usually associate dominance and power with right wing political terminology whereas whenever the word marxist is mentioned i immediately imagine very stinky skinnyfat disgusting sweaty greasy early 20s virgins who haven't had any characteristic developments since middle school. is this perception uncommon?

>>9910073
>Capitalism must first devour itself as a result of its culminating contradictions
You literally just described why the first communist state eventually collapsed. Capitalism is more adaptive than Communism not to say that it is a very flexible system or anything, just that it is more so than Communism. Because of this Capitalism will always outpace Communism. There is no "perfect" ideological system, just as there is no "perfect" form of government. It's just that some work better than others. Shame that you've fallen for the most memey one.

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>>9910064
>"had to use" discourse
It's the art of his work to put it into dialogue context man. His ideas were just as legit as anyone's and in an interesting format why hate?

>>9910097
>innocent
>obvious crypto capitalists seeking to exploit the workers
Kill the capitalists while they're weak, that way you prevent a pervasive, oppressive system from developing. But keep supporting the enemies of true communism, capitalist dog.

>>9910073

Ok, even if that is true, you still have those pesky figures the likes of which include Mao and Pol Pot. But lemme guess...they were crypto-capitalists too right?

>>9910106
idk i never read him just felt like shitposting

>>9910049
Peterson is the disenfranchised liberal personified.

>>9910098
Autism meme ideologies for basement dwelling, social leach sperglords

>>9910109

Thanks for proving our point for us retard.

>>9910110
True heroes of the Revolution. Speaking ill of their brave attempts to safeguard Communism is divisive machinations of a capitalist.

>>9910116
You're the idiot buying into obvious capitalist propaganda. But keep shilling your half baked """socialism"""

A communist state cannot exist without being preceded by a violent revolution against the Upper classes. The rich will never willingly relinquish or cease trying to attain power and they must be either forced into servitude or violently killed. Anything else allows them potential to reamass wealth and power. Anyone against a violent revolution is either a capitalist themselves or a stooge shilling for a crypto-capitalist.

>>9910127
why do you think socialism is better than capitalism?

>>9910049
because you barely improve yourself. to aim at a perfect utopian society when you yourself are incapable of maintaining a clean room is ludicrous .

>>9910137
you don't think social progress could cause enough people to voluntarily support communism and move to an island of say 1000 people?

>>9910150
isn't it as ludicrous as saying that i'll never tell a lie or never say anything that makes me weak?

>>9910152
There has never been a point in history where the powerful have willingly relinquished their power without force or the threat of force compelling them to.

>ctrl f culture of critique

ITT: bluepilled jewish puppets.

>>9910143
Because I have eyes to see the crimes it commits and a brain to realize the solution

>>9909995
Nice folktale book written by a fascist

>>9910161
what crimes does capitalism commit that socialism does not commit?

>>9910169
Oppression and exploitation of the lower classes by the deceptive rich and powerful.

>>9910158
but with the technology we have, shouldn't we be able to one day progress to something successful? isn't the sameness promoted in cities like Los Angeles and Seattle proof enough that people can wholly agree (at least outwardly) on one political agenda?

>>9910157
I saw the title of the latter video and laughed.

>>9910137
>against the Upper classes. The rich will never willingly relinquish or cease trying to attain power

What constitues "the Upper classes"? Is there an economic number you put on this to classify people? Is it tied to race? Is it tied to family history? Political status? How do you define "Upper Class"? Furthermore, how do you ensure this vague definition remains static? Why can't it be malleable?

In a hypothetical situation, if someone makes $2.00/day while most other people make $1.00/day, does that make the former 'rich'? And if so, should they be systematically 'removed' to benefit the $1.00/day earners?

And assuming you could achieve a classless society, does the same logic apply to those who set policy? If the policy is set by the proletariat, doesn't that make them bourgeoisie and therefore open to eradication?

The idea of a classless society is a myth.

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>>9910176
didn't that happen to Brazil with their last president that was ousted?

>>9910184
Any marxist worth his salt studies history and history is quite clear on power structures and how they change.

>>9910098
The Machine is too big to succumb to any kind of revolution. There have been instances where workers bounded together in the past to some avail but they haven't made a dent in the past century. Deep in the subconscious, the average human being is aware of the futility of any kind of revolt in the modern age. These people grow up to play the game. They get a job and have a family and they live their lives with their heads in the grass. This is where your average marxist/white nationalist comes in. These people are undersirables in every sense of the word. The opposite sex does not want to mate with them and the same sex does not want to befriend them. So what they do is find a scapegoat to blame for all their misfortune. They spend years consuming media that reaffirms their political views to the point of seeing everything through that lens. This is where the stuntedness of their characteristic developments come in. They are so busy consuming the same shit they don't even try to better themselves in order to find a mate and play the game (which is just as effective as pointless protests on the streets or dialogue on forums) and end up wasting their lives trying so hard to convince themselves that there's nothing wrong with them.

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>>9910176
or say with pic related in Venezuela?

>>9910190
>>9910191
>>9910204
This kind of mealy-mouthed, smug pseudo-intellectualism in a "checkmate, communists :^)" is typical of the upper classes and enemies of the revolution. The only metric that matters is people who support and people who obstruct the revolution. Anyone who impedes it gets tied to the post and executed like the rabid dog they are.

>>9910213
Typical commie bullshit response

Good b8 comrade.

reminder that striving to become upperclass in the modern capitalistic society is an infinitely more dignifying, noble, and comfortable lifestyle than being a citizen in a country where marxist is implemented as marxists deem fit (i.e. 'real communism')

prove me the fuck wrong commies

>>9910228
I've literally been spitting out buzzwords and bullshitting this entire time. I'm not even communist.

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>>9909995

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>>9910110

I never said Stalin was a crypto-capitalist. From my limited research, he seemed genuinely invested in the project of communism. After establishing the vanguard, he promptly went completely psychotically paranoid. This didn't help the fact that his project was doomed from the beginning.

>you still have those pesky figures the likes of which include Mao and Pol Pot.

Okay Pol Pot didn't even have the support of the USSR, of Vietnam, or of the socialists who rebelled in Cambodia.

Mao is tricky. I really can't say much about the cultural revolution other than that it was atrocious. Was Mao a "true communist"? Probably. At least he most likely believed himself to be.

I still don't really get why these atrocities somehow damage the legitimacy of Marx's thought.

>>9909995
Marxism = material account of history w/ emphasis on relationship of workers to means of production
Communism = workers own the means of production
Capitalism = non-worker entity (or entities) controls the means of production
State capitalism = non-worker entity that controls the means of production is the state

Marxism =/= communism =/= state capitalism => capitalism

"""Communist""" Russia was state capitalist, and therefore capitalist, and therefore not communist. This is distinct from the "no true Scotsman" fallacy because we're working from definitions.

All of you people are a bunch of repressed irrational fascists. Going against the natural flow of history towards ***TRUE LIBERTY*** is positively retarded. All these reactionarybros swinging their dicks around to impress eachoter is kind of pathetic. This hungry meme is also stupid, it's not communism's fault if the US kept stealing supplies of food from Mao. This is why they are so fat now, GG US you killed millions. JK no millions died, that is reactionary thoughtchild

>>9910257
are you retarded? maybe in marx's fantasy world we could have a communist utopia, in real life obviously not. i don't believe a communist utopia would be good anyway unless you like having no freedom.

>>9910260
Disingenuous """marxists""" like this are the second to be lined up and shot for the lies they spread about the revolution.

>>9910190
>If I just pretend theorists never outline their terms I can win the argument by making them mean whatever I want
Spoken like a true amerifat
If you want to seem credible you should at least take the basic step of opening the motherfucking Wikipedia article

>>9910196
>The opposite sex does not want to mate with them and the same sex does not want to befriend them. So what they do is find a scapegoat to blame for all their misfortune.

Wtf? All the Marxists I know have not been socially culled.

> The opposite sex does not want to mate with them and the same sex does not want to befriend them.

Oh good lord. You must be well adjusted.

>end up wasting their lives trying so hard to convince themselves that there's nothing wrong with them.

So I should conform myself to the object of my disdain in order to be comfortable? Got it. I guess we're all a bunch of smelly NEETs who are simply trying to project our self loathing onto the system of global capitalism.

This is weak.

>>9910264

You haven't read Marx. He never outlines a utopian scenario. He simply attempted to predict what would come as a result of the inevitable shedding of capitalism.

Capitalism will not keep its grip on our rapidly advancing means of production. What do you suppose will take its place?

Btw, we have this shitty fifth-grade anti-communist circlejerk thread every week. Read some Engels.

>>9910190
I like how you ask lots of questions to avoid from saying anything at all then conclude your substanceless nothing retard garbage as if you said anything of worth. I'll bite though.

1. Upper class is anybody in the top 1% and anybody who actively enables and protects them
2. Shitty example, earning twice as much as someone isn't the disparity we're talking about in the real world. But using your shit example, say in a village of 100 people you earned 2 dollars/day and everybody else earned 2 cents/day, that's a good start to comprehending the disparity. And yes the 2 dollar/day guy should be destroyed.
3. Yes it does. Your second question is just retarded.

The funny thing is that people like you think commies are the utopians while you're the autistic idiot who thinks that any disparity at all means it's not a "true utopia".

Stop trying to make "it wasn't real communism" a meme, because it is a legitimate argument.

>>9910268
All of those things sound more like fascists 2bh. Everyone I know who went fascist was generally unpopular to begin with.

>>9910302
I shat up this thread talking out my ass and now I've got people following in my footsteps shilling for communism in this thread. It is a meme. It always will be a meme. It always has been a meme. It's disingenuous to state that what avowed, devoted, dedicated communists were doing wasn't actual communism because it doesn't meet whatever arbitrary criteria you've identified as *true* communism.

>>9910176
True. Communism/marxism has no lower classes, it only has one class which is the equivalent to the lower class of capitalist societies.

>>9910308
Fascists and Communists are two sides of the same coin. Replace whatever ethnic group the fascists shill for with proletariat/general class rhetoric and their talking points are ridiculously similar to each other that they just become a mildly different strain.

>>9910315
of* oh and the upper class which are the rulers/party members.

>>9910311
So any idea executed poorly makes it bad? Guess it's time to be cynical and hate everything because I don't have the balls to believe in anything.

>>9910345
>shoving words in my mouth
>buying into the biggest political meme in history, the revolution of '89
baka all leftists need to be guillotined

>>9909995
Yes because Stalin and the subsequent leaders of the USSR strayed very far from the origins of the thought. Even Lenin bastardized it

>>9910316
You've got it wrong, they are 2 coins and one is made of plastic. Fascist ideology drew heavily from commie ideology and never the other way around. Wealth disparity is also more significant than race. T b h race becomes more important the poorer you get, there's a reason for this.

To spread disinformation like that is to support fascists.

>>9910362
Unironically choke on a bullet capitalist shill

>>9910373
>Fascist ideology drew heavily from commie ideology and never the other way around
true

>>9910378
I'm fairly socialist ya mook

>>9910373
Not really, i'm saying that fascism is as much of a failed ideology as communism. It's not that fascism draws from communism, it's that they both spring from the same fount, the one that originated in the leftist revolution of 1789. It's precisely because of this that it's always disingenuous to describe Fascism as a right wing ideology.

>>9910384
"""socialists""" like you are the definition of crypto capitlalist and deserve to starve to death for splintering the focus of the revolution

>>9910384
national socialist?

>>9910353
How is that shoving words into your mouth when it is in effect what you meant by it? Also, that doesn't mean much coming from a political eunuch.

>>9910392
Youre going to make that assumption based on one comment. We have no place for hyperbolics in the revolution! OUT REEE

>>9910394
please nationalism is for children

>>9910406
>how am i assuming your position and making a strawman when i assume your position and dictate your own views to you

>>9910409
What kind of socialism are you talking about?

>>9910409
Again i'm the chucklefuck shitting up this thread by RPing a dedicated stalinist. The funniest part is I keep admitting it yet y'all keep taking the bait.

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>>9909995
Because it's fiction

Looks like all you guys just got sorted xDDDDD

>>9910431
i've got all the cointel i need without your subpar attempts shitting up my shitting up this thread tyvm

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>>9910419

>>9910437
>thotsky
>socialism
nice one :^)

>>9910420
Anon is trying to make you humiliate yourself further and it's working quite well. Just saying.

>>9910387
Yes and you're wrong.
Fascism DOES draw from communism/socialism and never the other way around, stop fucking lying.
Your last point isn't wrong, fascism is extremism of the center. Which makes me wonder how you can know that and not realize how fascism draws from the left?

>>9910450
Humiliate implies that I can feel shame. I'm literally just doing this while I make/eat some food. This bullshit is fun for me

>>9910466
Again drawing from the left =! drawing from communism. It's not a simple Left->Communism->fascism

It's more like a family tree in which the persons of communism and fascism both descend from the left.

>>9910482
Doesn't matter, it's for other anons to enjoy.

>>9910494
I'm glad everyone is having fun then This is a good vibes zone :)))

>>9910412
You said communism is shit because the people who failed at it were communists.
I said does this mean any idea executed poorly is shit.
You cry about how i'm putting words in your mouth, strawman, assuming your position etc.

It's a simple question but hey if you can't win just cry foul.

They don't read it because opposition to their ideology has to be censored to them. Marxism is the left version of Nazism, just replace "bourgeoisie" and "Jew."

>>9910509
I said
>It is a meme. It always will be a meme. It always has been a meme. It's disingenuous to state that what avowed, devoted, dedicated communists were doing wasn't actual communism because it doesn't meet whatever arbitrary criteria you've identified as *true* communism.
With "it" referring to "x wasn't real communism". From that you >>9910345 somehow drew "communism is shit because the people who failed at it were communists" which is a value statement located nowhere within the post you're replying to. So, yes, you are shoving words in my mouth. I was referring to an argument of rhetoric and you took that as an indictment of the ideology as a whole.

Oral history (Arhipelag GULag) vs. popular (but academic enough) history (GULag - a history of the Soviet concentration camps by Applebaum), whats the difference?
Solzenitsyn's prose is hundred times better (I don't know about translations), but Applebaum's work gives numbers counted from available Soviet archives (Cheka-GPU-KGB archives have never been open to Western historians and archive of President of Russian Federation only partially). But evolution of the Law, Terror and of course the camps, there isn't large difference and it's quite amazing how realistic image Solzenitsyn could draw from 1) theoretical works available (Soviet and security organ newspapers and statements and collected works of Uljanov and Dzugasvili), 2) from personal experience and 3) from dozens or hundereds of oral memoirs of fellow zek's.

And most importantly, Solzenitsyn condemned spineless Gorky for not giving a shit about the terror he saw in Solovetsk and writing the collective work about the White Sea canal.

>>9910520
Hitler (and Mussolini too, but let's not count non-genocidal politicians) attacked bourgoise like no other in theory and in practice.

And you don't need to replace 'Jew' with a 'bourgoise', but with 'Don Cossacks' (at least half a million genocided), 'Ukrainians' (at least five million hunger-genocided), 'Volga Germans' (100000 killed) and 'Finns' (20 to 30000 butchered, few thousand of them Finnish Red's,).

>>9910493
You're talking out of your asshole, fascists drew from socialists. There's no debate here, only your ignorance as to why fascist/communist rhetoric is similar.
>>9910521
>value statement
I misphrased that.

Feel free to reply the original question though >>9910345

>>9910493
>>9910596
You're both getting it garbled; fascism doesn't "descend from the left" for the most part. Its original form was an attempt by Mussolini to resurrect Italian/Roman traditionalism (the fasces itself, the Roman salute, etc) and reclaim historically Italian territories. The Fascists actively purged anyone to the left of that traditionalist/imperialist stance (ie Strasser).

>>9910602
I didn't say fascism descended from the left, I said it was extremism of the center and what it drew from the left was socialist rhetoric.

none of the marxists in this thread have read the book. in fact no marxist i know has read the book

>>9910596
1) Socialists are not synonymous with communists
2) Fascism descends from revolutionary movements. Neither socialism nor communism have a monopoly on the heritage of revolutionary movements. I'd argue that both descend from the anarchist movements and are a result of taking the anarchist movement all the way around the political circle to authoritarianism, but that's highly conjectural. Regardless their similarities, what you perceive as fascism taking from communism/socialism, are only owed to their common ancestor. Elsewise you would easily be able to cite a fascist author who unambiguously cites communist and/or socialist theory as foundational to fascism.

>>9910602
Any hyper focused leftist ideology will cannibalize anyone not within it's very specific strain. Or are we now going to deny that Stalinists and Trotskyites are leftist? Just because two groups exist on the left doesn't mean they will work in harmony, that's a very facile, naive viewpoint.

>>9910602
>The Fascists actively purged anyone to the left of that traditionalist/imperialist stance (ie Strasser).
No they didn't. The first part is true, but Mussolini - by his own words and certainly by his actions - was a socialist to the day he died.
'Purged' here doesn't even mean the same that during 30's in Russia, but prison sentence changed to exile in outer Italian islands and early release (after which most fanatical anti-Fascists emigrated).

And he indeed looked into Uljanov's direction, but saw that the mass terror he incorporated failed and did not follow that path.

You can thank Reds for tarring the 'Fascism' to mean absolutely anything countering Russian Bolshevism, because like you wrote, the whole term is Roman antique and can thus not directly relate to anyone else than Italians.

>>9910596
I see no need to respond to a question completely unrelated to what I said.

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>>9909995
Oh boy can't wait for the autism ITT

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Marxist only read wikipedia articles and posts on reddit and /leftypol/

pic related, some of the communists who will no doubt come to this thread for their daily BTFOing

its the fucking proles fault we cant have nice things like commu utopia

maybe mars will work out tho

>>9910662
sometimes i read things like this and become thankful that i didn't go down the same path of delusion that every commie goes down. what a massive waste of time. imagine unironically posting something like this

>>9910662
>small brain: capitalist government run by bourgeoisie
>fluoridated brain: communist society run by proletariat
>ascended being: communist society run by the bourgeoisie

>>9910000
Merxist get

>>9910616
1. Semantics, their rhetoric is virtually identical.
2. Yes and that revolutionary movement was socialism/communism, they don't share a common ancestor. As for your last sentence on how fascist authors cite communist/socialist writings, you're correct but that just proves my point?

>>9910695
waste of a get

>>9910675
>>9910679
the proles as they are currently, if people are born into a fully working system they can adapt

>>9910229
bumping this because NO FAGGOT COMMIE RETARD CAN PROVE THIS WRONG

>>9910622
It's completely related I understand why you wouldn't want to answer it though.

>>9910091
They literally called themselves communist you retard. It clearly ended in failure and yet you continue to use the excuse "but it wasn't REAL communism"

>>9910699
1 semantics is a sophist tactic to dismiss the finer details of two closely related but distinct ideas. It betrays a member of discussion as acting in bad faith.

2 Socialism and/or Communism did not just spring out into the world. Their origin lies within the revolutionary Jacobins who exemplified the use of force to promote equality and curtail the rise of oppressors. As I said, I would argue that this flame was next picked up by the anarchist movements in europe, although it could just as easily be argued that it was carried on by the 48ers in the 19th century (although I'd say there was some overlap). From this branch Marxism developed, Marx was inspired by the seemingly connected and pervasive movements in the mid 19th century as a sign of the end of capitalism in industrialized countries. This revolutionary system of belief, the marxist strain, was picked up by Lenin, Trotsky, etc in Russia who succeeded 60-70 years later with the Russian Revolutions. The other descending branch, fascism, was a response to the carnage of the First World War. They saw the current systems of the West to be outmoded and a new revolutionary authoritarian system was necessary to rule effectively.

Again, both systems derive from the past european revolutionary movements, but socialism/communism/marxism/what have you does NOT have a monopoly on this. It's ridiculous to describe every single revolutionary movement as inherently a socialist or communist movement. Socialism simply takes much of the rhetoric and principles of revolutionary movements because it in itself is one form of revolutionary ideology. If you can't understand this, then you're literally too mentally deficient to talk about this topic which might explain why you've fallen for the socialism meme

>>9910738
>semantics is a sophist tactic
illiterate detected

>>9910722
Explain how what I said is directly related to what you asked. As I see it, they're talking about two entirely different ideas (rhetoric to defend an idea vs the efficacy of the idea itself when put into practice)

>>9910345
>just because my idea fails and can never be properly implemented doesn't mean it's a bad idea, checkmate capitalists

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holy shit. how is it possible for an atheist to read this and remain a atheist? is it even possible?

>>9909995
Are you the same guy who asked me this on /pol/? I already told you that Marxism hardly has anything to do with the Soviet Justice and Prison system.

>>9910740
>i'm too whacked out on adderall to read a whole sentence so all I have is kneejerk reactions to posts
Do you enjoy the picture books mommy reads to you before bedtime?

To commies:

I don't know shit about communism but I like the idea of someone working hard and being able to afford things that are luxurious. Is there any way this is viable under "real" communism?

I'm trying to figure out whether this fag ideology is worth reading about or a waste of time. Is it really just a bunch of losers who want everyone to be poor like them? Or is that a misconception?

>>9910744
i did it and even read the brothers karamazov and agreed with ivan. dostoyevsky was the opposite of msm journalism today. he made those he disagreed with the most excellent they could possibly be and then tried to make progress from that point.

>>9910792
yes. the distinction of private property and personal property are just some of the wisdom that awaits you.

>>9910285
>Capitalism will not keep its grip on our rapidly advancing means of production.

Wishful thinking

>>9910819
ok but i believe you should own land forever if you are rich enough to afford it. i also believe that peasants and retards are biologically determined to be losers in life. is this something communism is on board with?

>>9910741
If you're defending the meme you're obviously saying the idea is bad.
>>9910738
1. The only one "acting in bad faith" is you by sidelining the main point to focus on some autistic detail.
2. Okay you're describing the rise of socialism/communism, and? You literally pulled that "the other descending branch" out of your asshole. You realize that just because you put a bunch of irrelevant trivia in front of your false claim it doesn't make it true?

>both systems derive from the past european revolutionary movements
Wrong. fascism draws from socialism, even you haphazardly admitted that in the previous post.

> It's ridiculous to describe every single revolutionary movement as inherently a socialist or communist movement.
I'm saying it drew from socialism/communism, not that it IS socialist/communist.

The only one who is mentally deficient is you who clearly doesn't have the ability to argue properly without bringing up a dozen irrelevant things like a fucking nerd and then pulling claims out of your asshole.

>>9910098
>t. american

>>9910864
There'd be no "richness" in the first place; how much land would be determined by how much you actually need or could productively use. (No "private property", which you own but don't use, like properties that sit empty as investments - this is distinct from "personal property", the things you have and use such as a home, car, equipment to do your job, etc)

Basically your success or failure would be dictated by how hard you work and/or how skilled you are at a particular thing. So if "peasants and retards" work hard, good, and if not they will indeed be losers (providing in reality the equal opportunity that capitalism has always falsely promised).

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>>9910311
I guess North Korea is a democracy then

>>9910923
>There'd be no "richness" in the first place
stopped reading right there. idgaf about how much one actually needs i like having an AC and eating high quality food. communism is for retards and snake faced bedouins, thank you for confirming my suspicions

>>9910952
Richness in the sense of having a lot of extraneous property you don't use or enjoy, not just having a nice quality of life ya goof. The average person will be doing a lot better once people like Rupert Murdoch have their wealth seized and redistributed to the rest of us.

>>9909995
Yes, but marxists are retards anyway. It can't be helped.

>>9910952
I bet you're not even rich.

>>9910986
im not but id like that to remain an option
>>9910972
>Richness in the sense of having a lot of extraneous property you don't use or enjoy
whats wrong with this?

>>9910991
You realize that you'd have an easier time getting there when a greater burden is put on the rich?

>>9910618
fascism reached critical mass only thanks to the help of the liberals that used them as a tool to keep in check the workers movements.

>>9911030
but then it'd be easier for everyone. i'd rather try harder so i can be one of the few instead of being amongst other peasants who are now able to enjoy the same things which reduces their value through inflation

>>9910949
And the German Democratic Republic as well :^)

>>9911054
The problem is, as it stands in most Western countries (and worse in places like Japan), literally no amount of "trying hard" will get you a posh lifestyle. The capitalist class does its best to maximize profit while minimizing expense; wages are an expense. To be truly wealthy (aside from a few freak geniuses like Elon Musk) you pretty much have to be born into it.

>>9911054
being a dumb asshole i'm not sure how well you'd do

>>9910744
I just can't believe. My INTP brain need a literal damascus road 2.0

>>9911068
>literally no amount of "trying hard" will get you a posh lifestyle.
t. liberal arts major
>>9911073
u mad?

>>9911082
Keep telling yourself slaving away as a codemonkey or engineer or whatever will get you places.

>>9911082
I'm upper-middle class tho, I was born into what you want to work so hard for :^)

>>9911084
>code
>engineering
lol no wonder you think that no amount of 'trying hard' will get you a posh life. you have no clue how to go about getting one
>>9911090
thank you for sharing this piece of information :^)

>>9911098
np :^)

>>9911119
www.youtube.com/watch?v=J67wKhddWu4 :^)

>>9910302
I'm not even a communist bro, I'm just sensible

>>9911124
>being this desperate
:^)

>>9911144
nice dubs :^)

>>9909995
It's not surprising, most Marxists don't really take Hegel seriously. The only intellectually honest ones are the "left-communists".

>>9911148
ty :^)

>>9911159
nice talking to you but i gotta go. bye :^)

>>9910104
>>9910110
People who tried to push fedualistic societies to socialism without the capitalism stage as an inbetween

>>9911162
:^)

Viral narcissism has made socialism seem like theft

>>9909995
I didn't finish the book yet but as far as I know it tells stories of the people who were imprisoned, right? I'm only 90 pages in and so far he only described how systematically and brutally people were imprisoned.

Is there anything in this book that directly talks about communism/marxism? I mean if not, then why do you think that communism has to lead to such cruel totalitarian states? I'm not even trying to argue that communism is better, I just don't understand how communism is always associated with evil. Yes, history showed us that many communist states were unbelievably cruel. But if it really is communism that does causes such states there has to be some explanation right?

>>9910052
Yeah, and Islam is the religion of peace.

>>9911239

The explanation is marxism, it is a fucked up idea which they follow until the realization its economic system that wasn't even clearly defined can't produce shit.

>>9911239
It's a neccessary outcome of communism in order to disolve the state, the 'capitalist' class, the intellectuals and other dissidents/undesirables

>>9909995
The Gulag Archipelago testifies to a threefold tragedy. First, the tragedy of the Stalinist purges that struck at millions of Soviet citizens, among them the majority of the old cadres of the Bolshevik party, who were innocent of the crimes they were charged with. Second, the tragedy of a present-day generation of rebel intellectuals in the Soviet Union whose experience of Stalinism has led them to reject Leninism and Marxism and who are thus incapable of understanding the causes of Stalinist repression, the present reality of the Soviet Union, or the solutions required by the crisis of Soviet society. Third, the personal tragedy of a writer of exceptional talent who, because of his inability to understand the origins and character of the evil he is confronted with, has come to reactionary conclusions that to some extent even adopt the theories with which Stalin and his executioners justified their crimes in the past – the same theories that are used to justify the repression that is once again striking political oppositionists in the USSR.

>>9910730
That doesn't make it Marxist you chump.

>>9910835
UBI is coming faggot. What do you think is next?

>>9909995
>is it possible for a marxist to read this and remain a marxist?
Yes.
>is it even possible?
Yes, via ideological possession.

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>>9910054
>Reading Cioran

>>9910291
>1. Upper class is anybody in the top 1% and anybody who actively enables and protects them
Do the police count as the upper class then, despite being poorer and less educated than the radical students who they clash with? Wouldn't a proper reader of Marx say they have false class consciousness, rather than being upper class?

i think thats the whole point of "anarcho-communism"

they recognize that authoritarian communism was a complete disaster, so they want a non-authoritarian style of communism. This being said, I dont know how its possible to have communism if its not enforced by an authoritarian government.

>>9913259
>I dont know how its possible to have communism if its not enforced by an authoritarian government.
Communism gets its name from communes of the medieval period, where peasants were voluntarily creating these types of communities, and there's examples of primitive communism in other economic periods. Also read this if you're interested.
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/petr-kropotkin-the-conquest-of-bread

>>9910730
Yeah just like the good old Democratic People's Republic of Korea. Or how China is currently run by the Communist Party of China.

>>9910730
Literally read a book majne. Communism is the goal. Socialism is what the country is. Communism is a stateless borderless society with post-scarcity

I don't think Solzhenitsyn ever truly gave up on Socialism, just the version in Russia

From Cancer Ward (pg 474):
>Kostoglotov screwed up his eyes. 'But this "ethical socialism", how should we envisage it? What would it be like?'
>'It's not very difficult to imagine,' said Shulubin...'We have to show the world a society in which all relationships, fundamental principles and laws flow directly from ethics, and from them alone. Ethical demands must determine all considerations: how to bring up children, what to train them for, to what end the work of grown-ups should be directed, and how their leisure should be occupied. As for scientific research, it should only be conducted where it doesn't damage morality, in the first instance where it doesn't damage the researchers themselves. The same should apply for foreign policy. Whenever the question of frontiers arises, we should not think of how much richer or stronger this or that course of action will make us, or of how it will raise our prestige. We should consider one criterion only: how far is it ethical?
>'Yes, but that's hardly possible, is it - not for two hundred years?' Kostoglotov frowned. 'But wait a moment. I'm not with you on one point. Where is the material basis for your scheme? There has to be an economy, after all, doesn't there? That comes before all else.'
>'Does it? That depends. For example, Vladimir Solovyov argues rather convincingly that an economy could and should be built on an ethical basis.'
>'What's that? Ethics first and economics afterwards?' Kostoglotov looked bewildered.
>'Exactly!'

This, plus the passage about the monkey blinded by an evil man at the end, implied to me that Solzhenitsyn didn't hate socialism, but what people in Russia did in the name of socialism.

>>9913408
Also from pg 472:
>'Young man' he said, 'don't ever make this mistake. Don't ever blame socialism for the sufferings and the cruel years you've lived through. However you think about it, history has rejected capitalism once and for all!'

>>9910000
HA. HA. HA. AH. AH. AH. The mental gymnastics of this leftypol board are hilarious. I suppose Maoism wasn't real marxism or communism either? Top fucking kike.

>>9913408
>>9913416
Possible. Not trying to be a spoilsport here though but it might have been to soothe or placate the status quo so it could be published. He did say that socialism lead to the total destruction of the human spirit. Whatever the truth though, I don't think Solzhenitsyn could be blamed for not taking socialism seriously. And he was certainly no capitalist either.

"Untouched by the breath of God, unrestricted by human conscience, both capitalism and socialism are repulsive."

>>9910028
This definition lacks the aspect of religion that is required for Marxist socialism. It has never worked, people still shill for it, and treat the topic with cult like behavior.

>>9913431
Good point. He was most likely striving for a third option.

>>9911239
>I just don't understand how communism is always associated with evil.
This will sound like a soundbite from some communist propaganda movie, but it's true: capitalist propaganda.
The greatest and most powerful country in the world is not only capitalist, but the worst kind - neoliberal capitalism.
And it has available newspapers and news channels and think tanks and opinion makers and academics who are able to flood the general public with the lullabies of "There is no alternative" and "We're all fine, nothing to see here".

waiting for a minecraft youtuber to meme ulysses so this board can squeeze some book threads in

>implying kulaks don't deserve worse

Americans were a mistake.

>>9913661
We're a frontier culture. Now that there's nowhere else to explore we have nothing else to do but wallow in our own filth.

>>9913664

Americans don't have a culture beyond mindless retardation. No offence, yank, but if the entirety of your country disappeared no one outside of it would care. Everyone rightly hates you.

>>9913678
People hate America because of its cultural and economic dominance. America develops medicine and technology at a greatest rate than any other country on the planet. Deriding America and Americans as a whole is so silly that it can only really stem from a sort of jealousy and economic resentment.

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>*blocks your path*
>I heard you saying Solzhenitsyn was exaggerating the cruelty of the Soviet GULAG system

>>9910730
>North Korea is a dictatorship run by a megalomaniac
>"Uhhh sweetie it's a democratic people's republic???? It's right there in the name???? Lol retard"

>>9913684
nah when people say they hate americans they're talking about fucking useless faggots like you who don't contribute shit but act like you're part of the minority who do.

>>9910097
Lenin 1870–1924, the Holodomor 1932-33, so not so much.

>>9913707
A minority of people contribute in every nation. I don't get this argument. Are you just upset at the way American act overseas?

>>9913684

People hate Americans because you're all stupid cunts. Nice delusion of grandeur.

>>9913244
You're right but my point is that if they choose to continue protecting the upper class they need to be purged too.

>>9913712
My point is that americans think the achievements of fellow countrymen equates to their achievements you fucking retard, you're a nation of dumb faggots living vicariously.

>>9913733
Wait a minute, literally every nation on the planet takes pride in their accomplishments. Talk to a Scotsman about penicillin, or a Greek about democracy. That's not close to being unique to Americans. You're just a xenophobe.

>>9913739
i studied in scotland, i probably avoided the autistics who got their self-esteem from their ancestors having discovered penicilin.

>>9913766
American self-esteem isn't based on past achievement, it's based on current prominence. That's a big distinction. The fact that you're speaking English right now is more due to American culture dominance than British imperialism.

>>9913785
thanks for proving my point that americans like to take credit for shit they had no part in

>>9913805
>English becoming the lingua franca of the internet had nothing to do with America
You're a fucking retard

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>>9910003
>>9910010
>>9910017
>>9910024
>>9910050
>>9910695
>>9913422
I mean, he isn't wrong...
Do you really think that Lenin and Stalin, with their centralized leadership, really had the authority to call themselves communist, when communism the ideology shuns authority
I thought people here were intelligent

Methinks people should actually read Marxist literature before throwing stones from their glass houses
Start with the communist manifesto, it's like 40 pages guys

>>9913824
the point flew straight over your autistic obese head

>>9913830
>Americans can't take collective credit for the achievements of individual Americans
>Americans can be collectively blamed for the obnoxious behavior of individual Americans
The European thought process right here

>>9913852
you're acting obnoxious right now you fat fuck autist

>>9913858
8% body fat you absolute faggot. Go pray to Mecca.

>>9913864
only faggots measure their body fat

Christ this thread is embarrassing
kys Petersonfags

>>9913513
>Think tanks and professors aren't communists
Have you been on a college campus before? Looked at the media as of late? Communists are literally destroying public works and causing riots and get away with it. If communism was really seen as a huge evil, they'd have cops cracking down on them and the media attacking them 24/7 like they do to white nationalists, who ARE seen as evil.

>>9913825

>if only i was the one in charge, THEN communism would work!

>>9909995
>Book about stalinism terror.
>Condemn all marxism.
I'm trotskyist and support human right.

>>9910152
your island is going to need things. your going to have to give people stuff to exchange for those things. thus capitalism.

>>9913733
>Does not have national pride.
Found the Clinton shill

>>9913715
>delusion of grandeur.
>has de facto most influence in the world.
Nice denial of reality, marxtard.

>>9913825
>After many failed social and communist states, he still doesn't get the hint about the ideology.

>>9913678
if america is stupid we're obviously doing something right as rich as we are. i guess bill gates and any other billionare are also fucking retards who should be cleaning toilets and digging holes? nice logic.

the reason people come to america is opportunity. communism offers no opportunity or control over your own destiny.

>>9913513

You forgot to say people under this worst kind of capitalism still has better lives than any attempted communist regime despite it's "propaganda".

Stalinos should fuck off.
Their entire ideology and rethoric is based around paranoia. We know that the minorities like women and gay people whom they will have used to achieve their goals will be thrown under the bus and that anyone not completely in line with the ruling party will be sent to a gulag. Apart from the fact that stalinism can never reach communism, it's a murderous ideology and has shown it's true colours in collaborating with nationalist "liberation" movements, which only led to more state capitalism, misogyny and cisheterosexism and I advise all people left to the center of the political spectrum to never ever collaborate with them.

>>9914014
Your view of history is sloppy, it does not account for historiography, nationalism or how the nation is perceived, or even the nuances of the ideology which you intend to criticize, but I suppose that is to be expected from somebody who gets their idea of history from a psychologist.
When Marxists say "oh Russia/China/Cuba aren't real communism", it's because they fucking aren't. They're communism plus some flavor of the time and place ideology, e.g Socialism in one country, a bizarre combination of Communism and Nationalism (which is not Nazism you fucking spooks), usually this ends in disaster. Historical example for Leninism is the Kronstadt rebellion over the New Economic Policy (basically capitalism), read the list of demands they made. Communism and Socialism demand the consent of the people to work. That Lenin didn't have the unanimous support of the people means that what he was doing was not communism.
Also of note is that nobody ever considers the positive examples, they cherry pick the bad ones. Rev. Catalonia and the Free Territory in the Ukraine are pretty good examples that were squashed by fascists and Leninists respectively.
Solzhenitsyn's book is a great historical source, filled with painstaking detail about the day to day within a gulag, but it's not a political theory tract, and people should stop fucking treating it like it is one.
>inb4 you are mad, engage with my argument

>>9913909
Literally where have I said this you fucking pseud

>>9914143
>
literally nobody is defending stalinism

>>9914163
Not here in this thread (the only ones who did were shitposting), that is true.
There are still more than enough people who want stalinism though. Most of the US-American militant left I would even say.

>Capitalism goes a bit wrong
Guess I'll have to stop putting cream in my coffee until the situation improves..
>Socialism goes a bit wrong
Guess I'll have to decide which one of my children I'm going to have to eat next..

>>9914229
you're obviously talking out of your ass

>>9914259
>nobody starves under capitalism
wew
e
w

Equality is a lie disproven by every interaction in life. I am revolted by democracy for not weighing my voice as twenty million of the plebs; lowest common denominator ideologies like communism and democracy are just bad jokes and illusions. Greatness can never rise upwards when it is bogged down by transitory, limited mediocrity. You all deserve the world your pathetic systems have wrought, tearing the gods among you down to the lowest common denominator. They tell me there is no bread, and i say, "Let them eat shit"

>>9914385
why is equality a lie, and what contexts do you possibly have for this

>>9909995
Can you explain how its a good critic of Marxism despite having nothing to do with the philosophy?

>>9914388
You have bought into a priori enlightwnment deceptions. One man could be strong, another weak. One virtuous, another sniveling and cracen, one a champion of justice, another a thief. Ome a genius, another a moron. And all of the positive virtues could be in one man, and none on another. Their equality is an abstraction and an illusion - one man's life might bring only good, another's only harm. Where then is the logic in maintaining they are of equal value in any way? In their "spirit"? Also unprovable

>>9914424
*enlightenment*craven*one
One man might type on a phone, another not.

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holy shit. how is it possible for a capitalist to watch this and remain a capitalist? is it even possible?

>>9914385
How does marxism = equality. The goal it to make it harder to make riches through exploitation. It doesn't claim to make everyone equal

>>9914424
Ok Wagner, don't start playing the 1812 Overture. You sound like a postmodernist, why all dem big words?
Stop me if you've heard this one before but the reason why the way things are is the way things are is because of the capitalist system. You frame it as if it's because of some fundamental difference between the characters of people, but there's some Randian undertones to your "argument". You say "one man could be weak, another strong", nested within that is an economical assumption that there are people inferior to you, i.e economically, intellectually, socially. But you don't really question why it is that is the way it is do you, worse still you seem unable to recognise the social problems faced by a lot of the people you deride. And you wouldn't want to question how we would go about fixing the issues that plague society because (I suspect) you have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. Their equality is an "abstraction and illusion" only because capitalist government and multinational corporations have made it so.
tl;dr, you're a pretentious fascist who really, really needs to actually read the literature that you intend on criticising.

>>9914440
Holy shit read the communist manifesto that is literally not what Marxism is.

>>9914491
>nested within that is an economical assumption that there are people inferior to you, i.e economically, intellectually, socially
nested within that is an assumption
it's 2am, aborting this argument, get fucked petersonfags

>>9914491
It is literally what Marxism is. A critic of capitalisms failures and an advocating for freeing capital

>>9914424
Equality of opportunity not equality of outcome.
Thus preventing one who's "weak, sniveling, craven, and moronic" from having power or wealth unearned, simply by virtue of their place in a pre-existing hierarchy (such as people getting into politics through family connections despite being unqualified, etc)

>>9913909
Stop watching Peterson and start reading a book

>>9914525
Peterson is right in nearly every way. You communists are deluding your own reality via postmodernism. Clean up your act and get organized or it gets harder.

>>9914506
Holy fuck no it's a Utopian ideology theorizing a community (COMMUN-ism) who shares their economic wealth and produce equally, built upon the failings of capitalism. BUT it is also an economic system built on the same fundamental principles, namely that everybody should have an equal opportunity. Holy fuck it's like this board is allergic to nuance.
If you'd actually engaged with the literature you would know this.
At this point I'm fucking giving you fuckheads material; using "utopian" in a sentence related to Marxism should give you an idea, it's wishful thinking. Even with this concession, Marxism, Socialism and Communism are still useful economic systems, that can have a real benefit on society if drawn upon in policy. Prime example: Socialist Health care. I suspect you're a burger. Look at your health care system, compare it with Cuba's or Canada's health care system, weep because of the injustice in your society.
Jesus christ this board is brainwashed by YouTube-tier alt-right "academics" who in turn were given platforms by man-babies who felt hardly done by for having to read Foucault.

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>>9914491

>biological traits poses no effect in life

I've some bad news for you.

>>9914566
Peterson is an utter mediocrity who got rich quick by acting as a surrogate father to neckbeards.

The whole "clean your room" thing only works because his fanbase lives with their parents, and so has a "room" rather than a house or flat.

>>9914567
Equality to make a living without exploiting people through capital. To each according to his own skill implies not everyone will be equally skilled in whatever.

>>9914566
>You communists are deluding your own reality via postmodernism. Clean up your act and get organized or it gets harder.
Honestly go fuck yourself on an atom bomb.
Not only do you not understand intellectual post-modernism, but neither does Peterson. He talks about it as if it has tangible structure, which it doesn't. He's essentially strawmanning half a century of very good and helpful ideas because "words are hard"

>>9914578
Imagine for me a "perfect" society...

>>9914578
From each according to his ability, to each according to his need
is the slogan - Communism presumes that everybody will be more or less willing to contribute to a society where they are valued and in which their needs are met.

>>9914572
you're wrong, and ignoring a whole lot of factors, but here's your reply

>>9909995
To be absolutely frank, I was a communist mostly because of their willingness to kill the parasites.

Their whole system depends on everyone being productive so it made semse to me that the unproductive were roumded up and made to do somethi g slightly productive until they die.

Still does though I can't honestly say I'm a communist anymore.

>>9910049
Utopia is one, a satire and two an undefinable thing.
Even if communism acheived its pruported goals it would still be severely immoral from the perspective of a number of philosophies and religions.

>>9914567

>the cuban myth

I hope you're trolling.

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Superior rebuttal of Marxism coming through.

>>9914623
Cuba is real, idiot.

>>9909995
>how is it possible

It's a feature, not a bug.

>>9914615
>Utopia is one, a satire and two an undefinable thing.
what's your point here
Thomas Moore wrote Utopia as a vehicle for social critique, as purely imaginary, but that doesn't invalidate the exercise of imagining a better society to work towards
>Even if communism achieved its purported goals it would still be severely immoral from the perspective of a number of philosophies and religions.
who cares though, because if the goals were achieved it would literally be a perfect society, you're moralities and philosophies would be proven wrong, objectively.
>>9914629
Fine, don't like looking at Cuba, Australia's health care system is socialist, examine that motherfucker.

>>9914385
Yea, I was 14 once

>>9913785

Jesus Christ.

>>9910730
>They literally called themselves communist you retard
That means nothing.
But I agree that leftists the world over fawn over each new socialist regime, proceeding to ignore it and claim "no real communism" when it inevitably goes to shit. Venezuela is the latest culprit.

>>9914879
Am I the only one who sees nothing wrong with praising a new effort as it is beginning and expressing hope and then condemning it when it fails?

>>9913330
>stateless
And Lenin had 101 presuppositions for not relinquishing power every step of the way to create the stateless utopia. Yet you expect an infallible temporary authority to assume the power to restructure an entire society and then promptly dissolve those powers to "the People". Naïvety.

I wonder, without a state, what is to prevent people who hate the smell of your bullshit from establishing their own capitalistic enclaves.

>>9914907
Yes, if the new effort is nothing but Marx's new clothes. You should already know better.

>>9909995
>Idealist reads book about practical application of his ideology
>Practical application makes changes to ideology because it had to be applied to the real world
>I-it wasn't MARXist, it was Stalinist!

Shitposting aside, the actual crimes of the Soviet Union, when their full extent became known, didn't sway people. Why would a book describing them change more minds?

>>9915013
What "actual crimes?"
>inb4 muh black book bix nood

>>9915003
Right, I agree, if an effort to establish communism clearly hasn't learned anything from past revolutions and is trying nothing different, I would condemn it from the beginning. This is why I have never supported Venezeula.

>>9914021

Once again, Americans deserve nuclear holocaust.

>>9910000
quads for the truth desu

>>9914577

>got rich quick
>been a professor at top tier schools for decades now

>>9913654
Le epic kulaks meme!!!!!

>>9914567
Squirming in anger and incredulity, hot sweaty adolescent body, only mildly post-adolescent mind. Ticklish, sensitive to others criticism.

>>9914662
nice troll, almost replied