Published

I am J.K. Rowling

>What are your estimations of the pitfalls and downside of the business?

For publishing? Well, 80% of the publishing industry is staffed by women since most men burn out and quit.

If women don't like your shit, you aren't getting published. That's really all there is to it.

>>9845784
This may be true...I notice that adult fiction now pretty much imitates YA fiction in the militant choice of female characters

I knew a woman who had written a couple of detective novels with a female lead. She said her publisher really started laying heat on her to make her character a lesbian. She wasn't into the idea, and she felt that the temperature changed.

I'd be just as interested in people writing who are NOT published, but have tried, got rejected, what their take is.

>>9845554
i know a fantasy author and two romance writers, a couple of editors, an agent.

Businesswise, the average advance is $6k which you may or may not earn out (make up in sales). If you're trying to sell the first book you've ever written, it probably happen unless you're older or have a MFA.

It is still possible to become a writing rockstar but you'll be lucky to become a mid-list author.

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>>9845554
i've published fiction in a magazine that you can find at barnes and noble. it was cool to have some validation, but honestly not much changed as far as my day to day life. a few people mentioned on twitter that they enjoyed it. it's cool to have a copy of the magazine in my house. but just getting published doesn't necessarily mean you have any more "clout" or whatever.

i've resubmitted work to the same publication afterwards and still got rejected. the story that got picked up wasn't what i think is the best thing i've written.

>>9846562
i've been rejected about ~200 times now i'd figure. couple of novels and a bunch of short stories. most of the rejections are form rejections, although many agents don't bother sending a rejection letter at all.

it sucks. i feel like a large part of consistent success is being marketable as an author. to that end i'll probably start a blog soon or get into journalism as this seems to be the best way to "break in" to the fiction world. it'll also give people a way to read my stuff without having to go through the protective barrier of an agent/editor

publishing is only going to get harder, by the way. essentially there are zero barriers to entry now that everyone has the internet and access to decent education.

>>9845742
>Anti-Nazi
>On a website made for Nazis

>>9847020
Nice to know a sale doesn't actually open the gate. Jayzus.

>>9847020
This is depressing.

>>9850561
Facts hurt.

Don't have a book published, have a few written that I might get published one day, but I dunno.

I get published in lit magazines, but it doesn't pay. Most mags are just about getting the prestige, if they do pay it's generally next to nothing.

>>9846562

For me rejection just makes me up my game more, get better, find new and interesting projects to try. Any writer who actually makes it into a living will probably tell you the same. You'll be rejected A FUCKING LOT even if you become a paid writer.

>>9845784

I have an aunt that worked as an editor and I can confirm this to be true.

Odds are, the first filter your work must go through is most likely female.

I've had a few things published in magazines. I got paid for it but not very much.

My biggest piece of advice is not to try making a living by selling published fiction (I do it as a hobby). Because the field is so saturated, you'll be completely at the mercy of publishers and editors and you'll probably end up being a hack.

The other one is marketing. I don't think you can become a successful author anymore without aggressively promoting yourself, especially on social media. That's true even of traditionally published writers but even more so of self-published authors. I personally find this both distasteful and tedious, and don't do it -- see comment above about turning into a hack. A lot of shit is talked about how much time some authors spend posting on e.g. Twitter or arguing on blogs but it's absolutely part of the game now.

>>9850643
>Because the field is so saturated,

Another published author here. I agree the field is saturated, my only caveat is that it's filled with total shit. It's not hard to get good fiction published, as it's kind of rare to find. In any case, no you don't get paid much for short stories, but it does help to build a resume if you ever move on to try to sell a book and attempt to make some real money.

>>9850654
The Internet seems to promise more exposure, but much of it is white noise. Look at the racks of readerless posts on Medium.
It bleeds over to print media--what's left of it.

On that note, is there any good SF poetry? I liked this https://davidcollard.wordpress.com/2012/12/21/the-retired-spaceman/

I've also heard of Aniara, although it's in Swedish and I don't know whether the translation is any good.

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>>9850561
that sale came after a few years of nothing but rejections and then a few "sales" to nonpaying publications. either i'm a case of a blind squirrel who somehow found a nut or getting published is incredibly difficult

>>9850654
>It's not hard to get good fiction published
i'm not sure if this is true. even marlon james got rejected like 70 times for his first novel, right? how many better authors never saw the light of day because of first readers? we'll never know.

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I was published in Weird Fiction Review #6. I'll never tell you which story is mine because it was really awful and I'm ashamed of it. Still, it was neat to be published alongside the likes of Laird Barron, who's a big shot in the weird fiction community. And I got to interact with ST Joshi, a personal hero of mine.

I couldn't tell you much about the industry because this is my only publishing credit to date. I've been rejected upwards of 100 times from various magazines and online journals. Most of what I write, I don't dare to submit because my morale is so low.

Centipede Press paid me $120 for my contribution.

>>9850845
>even marlon james got rejected like 70 times for his first novel, right

Yeah, that's easy, relatively.

>>9846562
I've had two novels and more short stories than I cant count rejected. Like >>9847020 said, trying to publish a novel is pointless unless it's marketable. Publishing houses no longer take unsolicited submissions, which means you have to find an agent first, and finding an agent is a nightmare. Most agents who are worth a damn aren't taking unsolicited submissions, which leaves a bunch of fresh college grads who have no clout or any experience working with writers.

Also, agents reject anything that isn't easy to categorize (i.e. YA, romance, genre, whatever) out of hand. So if you've written something you think is interesting, but it doesn't fit the mold of trending fantasy or thriller or YA novels, you can forget about it.

>>9850845
Most of getting published is networking, unfortunately. All the interesting contemporary authors I read have been published through unconventional routes, i.e. bumping into agents and making acquaintances with clout in the industry.

Unfortunately for curmudgeonly people who frequent lit, this sort of thing is completely alien.

It seems most publishers are insider circlejerks. The entire industry is about denial of access, and increasingly people who get published are the children of older authors or movie people--as if this were a dynastic affair.

>>9851104
I dunno about the nepotism, but the industry is definitely incestuous in that most people who 'break in' are already friends or acquaintances with insiders.

>>9845784
Seriously? That's fantastic. At least when pitching my story, (well read) women loved the shit and most of my key characters are female too. Now I only need to decide what to spend my J.K.Rowling money on before I continue writing my YA trilogy.

>>9851104
That's simply a sound business decision. No matter how shit the new photography book from Beckhams kid is, it will sell well. Why wouldn't they publish it?

>>9851071
>Also, agents reject anything that isn't easy to categorize
How do you sell a book that you can't place in a bookstore because the writer is a special genrefluid snowflake?

>>9851183
It's less about genre conventions and more that agents are looking for hyper specific formulae. An agent will advertise they're looking for submissions that are similar to Looking for Alaska or Name of the Sword or whatever.

>>9846639
What's the best thing to do with a finished first book then?

>>9845742
Post feet

>>9851200
Well, I never went far enough as to query so at that point it might be different but reading the wishlists of different agents (I went through every fucker on MSWS), I rarely saw any who are overly anal about formulas beyond the obvious. Of course there are some who look for something very specific like LGBT bi racial lawyer drama but with the amount of agents it's not too hard to skip these.

>An agent will advertise they're looking for submissions that are similar to Looking for Alaska or Name of the Sword or whatever.
That's a different thing altogether. Obviously they are looking for something similar to already popular things but it's not like you have to slavishly emulate the stuff.

Did the guys who rejected you specifically complain about it?

>>9851272
Edit it a lot. Get feedback. Edit some more. Then look for an agent.

>>9851595
Do agents seriously DO anything? They always just seemed like scalpers to me.

>>9851600
you'll have far less luck submitting to the publishing houses directly than to agents. agents know which houses are looking for what kinds of mss and will handle the business end.

if you manage to sell to a publisher directly, you'll still need to get an agent to do all the legal/business stuff.

it's kind of like representing yourself in court. you could but you're not going to know what you're doing unless you do a ton of research.

>>9851627
Also the really big publishing houses don't want to deal with authors directly. So for anyone with ambitions to have a serious impact, it's either agent or the even harder road of 24/7 self promotion and establishing a fanbase.

>>9851183
I think you misunderstand literature. This IS the artform for Special Snowflakes. The Book Business of Stephen King pageturners is the cancer that is killing the culture.

>>9851173
Great, we can look forward to another phony story about bullshit women characters reassuring themselves about the things women like to hear.

I've been writing fiction as a hobby for over 20 years.

I've written around 30 novels, 200 short stories, and 20 feature length screenplays.

I submitted to probably about 15,000 agents and markets in those 20 years.

Not a single acceptance, until last year when I finally landed an agent, sold 5 novels as part of a book contract, sold 2 spec scripts to major film studios, and 14 short stories to various magazines, all within a few months of each other.

It's crazy.

I don't know what it is, but it's like everything I've written is suddenly gold, even stuff I wrote 20 years ago, and I don't even get rejected anymore. I guess the market finally aligned with my taste.

The timing is pretty amazing. Just over a year ago, I'd totally given up on writing, and everything, even abandoning my day job career, and moved to Japan to start a new life. I even changed my name to a local one. I had one last novel that I'd just finished before my flight, so I submitted that to an agent back in America, and she went nuts for it! She instantly accepted it, just based on my query. The rest came in a wave. I'm pretty much wealthy enough to quit my day job now.

I guess the moral is, just keep up the hard work. Keep submitting. Hone your craft. It's all about quality! Success will find you under the strangest of circumstances.

>>9845554
My gf is negotiating her first book deal. Downside is you make close to 0 dollars especially on your first novel. After that, if you are somewhat succesfull, you can actually get some funding or bookdeals.

>>9845554
Is self-publishing an option? Especially if you are from a non-english speaking country but you want to write in english?

I'm not sure anyone would take me seriously.

Or should you just send a bunch of e-mails to agents from UK or USA?

>>9852745
I don't get this. Is this true? Is this pasta? If so, what is it trying to convey?

Have any of you ever sent in work to literary journals, or to the ads you find at the back of writing magazines? I went through one for the first time recently and was surprised how many there were, and how specific some could be. Some wanted short stories, some novels, one called for a 120,000+ word scifi epic by an unknown author. Crazy stuff.

How'd it go when you sent your work in?

>>9853476
>Have any of you ever sent in work to literary journals

Yeah.

>or to the ads you find at the back of writing magazines?

I don't read writing magazines so I dunno.

> surprised how many there were

Yeah, there's a lot of them out there still.

>How'd it go when you sent your work in?

Good, I get published fairly regularly. It's not that hard really. Most of the magazines are forced to publish total shit on a regular basis, because good fiction is still just as rare as it ever is. So if you're a good author, which I fancy myself, you don't have much trouble getting published. If you're a bad author it's pretty encouraging as well, so there's really no excuses.

I still haven't made a dime doing it, but that's a whole different topic.

I don't think I could name even one fiction magazine.

>>9853523
so?

>>9853523
using the grinder (free magazine searching tool) i just found about 1500 of them. There's a lot more than listed on there too.

>>9853464
As /r9k/ begins to pollute other boards so does its typical brand of roleplaying.

>>9853486
>haven't made a dime

But even the low-end publications offer a token 20 bucks as a badge of honor. Where do you submit to?

>>9853464
It's either tasty pasta, or some horrid, "Don't give up," mantra you're suppose to ruminate on.

>>9853554

Well for one, no most low end publications don't pay, and even a lot of med and high end ones don't pay either.

One I'm submitting to now offers 1 cent a word, so I stand to make maybe 20 bucks. That's almost as insulting as nothing, but I could say I'm a paid author then.

>>9852680
The job of agents and publishers is to make money, and always was that way. If your special snowflake art can make some, they are in. The majority of the books you consider muh literature all had commercial appeal too.

If you don't care about that, you can always publish the shit yourself for free.

>>9845784
That's depressing. Cause I'm a guy and writing. Welp, time to go back to manual labor for a living, I guess.

>>9850571
Yes they do.

>>9853671
>Cause I'm a guy and writing

So? You've spoken to women before, right? You've had sex with women, right?

It's not very hard to figure out what they want.

>>9852690
>about bullshit women characters reassuring themselves about the things women like to hear
Like Anna Karenina. Oh wait, it was Leos best work and hailed by the people this board keeps circlejerking about.

>>9853671
If you have trouble to empathize with characters because they don't have a penis, you're a shitty writer who wouldn't make it outside of a niche either way.

>>9853534
Thanks for this. I'll look through it.

>>9853679
>>9853683
It's more along the lines of I don't want to write banal things for women about women.

>>9853679
>>9853683
Funny the first thing you two do is start calling him a virgin and dropping insults.

>>9853718

you really don't get women if you think that's what they want, but whatever.

>>9853728
In what way did I indicate in my post that I care about what they want or want to provide literature for them?

>>9853731
Well looks like you got it figured out then, good luck in what's sure to be a juggernaut of a career.

>>9853734
Yes, that's the problem I was pointing out. How very astute of you.

>>9853718
Nor do women want to read it, unless it's some romance shit where a whale gets hit on by a 6" doctor with a six pack.

>>9853723
If someone struggles with empathy, they aren't going to do too well in a medium that relies on it. It's not an insult but a fact.

>>9853782
>implying empathy is the problem here
Let me guess... you're a woman?

So....it's now somehow women's fault that you guys aren't published? Am I getting that right?

>>9845554
I've published short stories in Virginia Quarrterlt, Missouri review, and a few other minor lit journals / magazines.

The money basically just subsidized my teaching salary , and I'm hoping soon I'll be able to string together a few really good ones and find someone to publish them as a book

>>9853791
>woman on 4chains
>on /lit/
Be realistic, nigga.

And yes, obviously empathy is a problem if you find writing something that would appeal to women as problematic.

>>9853818
Maybe I just don't want to cater to women? Did that possibility escape you? That's not a crime, though you and your kind would try to make it such.

>>9853823
>Maybe I just don't want to cater to women?

if you can't cater to women, you probably can't cater to other people in general...which is sort of a requirement to have people read your work. Every piece you write is going to have to cater to SOMEBODY.

I also don't buy the 28 year old fat virgin theory that the only way to make it in publishing is to kiss women's ass all day and write romance novels or something. I get published fairly regularly, and I've never once made an overt attempt to appeal to women specifically.

In any case, you'll find just writing a piece of work good enough to appeal to people in general is enough to appeal to women.

>>9853671
and nothing of value was lost

>All these mad women ITT.
Damn son. Dude just wants to write some bro-stories. Chill out. It ain't always about you.

>>9853859
Doesn't he want to sell them? If you have no commercial ambitions, obviously there is no reason to give a shit about appealing to people beyond yourself.

>>9853880
If you have no commercial ambitions, why bother writing at all? The entire point is to get others to read them, in some way.

If you're content at clacking away bullshit that only you like, then that's fine too, but don't start complaining that the business is impossible to get into and xxx are to blame for your failure.

>all these triggered females because some dude doesn't want to write for chicks

Let's not pretend that not wanting to pander to a certain audience is the same thing as not having 'commercial ambitions' or being a shitty writer or a misogynist or some other shortfalling. I detect a hack trying to justify his hackery.

>>9854305
You do need to focus on some audience and generally be aware of the most likely reader for your work.

Pandering as in actively focusing to please a very specific group actually limits your commercial performance for obvious reasons. If anything, excluding characters and themes that might be of any interest for woman is pandering to certain men, and a great way to lower the size of your potential market.

>>9854305
>I detect a hack trying to justify his hackery.

yeah basically. Of course if someone is a hack that implies they've actually succeeded but by some trickery.

In this case it's just lonely shut-ins who scoff at the idea of actually writing fiction for an audience, and then are somehow surprised that nobody wants to read their garbage.

>>9854384

The question you should always be asking yourself when you're writing is, "What's interesting about this? Why will people want to read this?" with every word basically. Basically just always keeping in mind that you need to appeal to your readers, and remembering nobody is forced to read your stuff, they can skip over it if they want to.

This is, of course, just general writing for success 101, and a far cry from pandering to a specific audience and throwing elements that will appeal to only them.

>>9854384
No, hacks do not succeed by trickery. They're neither clever nor original enough for that. What they do is please the lowest common denominator. They take the lightest load through the safest ruts.
Congrats on your...success.

>>9854974
>tfw too artistic to please people like the hacks that Joyce, Shakespeare and Tolstoy were

>>9854989
Not hacks.
You're just trying to sound clever.
Let's say more...Dean Koontz.

>>9854998
All of them aimed to please their audience, otherwise they wouldn't sell as well. Why aren't they hacks? What about Hugo and Dickens? How about Nabokov, who easy outdid 50shades, Twilight and Hunger Games in sales?

>Dean Koontz
Just looked him up, and well, he does the same just with a clearer focus. His books probably have a smaller merit beyond entertainment due the genre but wasn't your main point something else entirely?

>>9855032
No, I don't believe you've gotten my point at all. I think you've tried to reframe it so that you appear to have an attack. There was never any assertion against commercial success. Success in sales does not...really, if you're going to play coy, there's no point in talking to you.

>>9853464
>American guy works for 20 years with 15,000 rejections and 0 publications
>changes his name to an Asian one
>instant acceptance, agent, book deal, and fortune

Figure it out.

>>9853476
Those are vanity press scams.

>>9845554
Former freelance editor and friend to a number of established and up-and-coming writers here:
Magazine publishing can help build up a brand and get recognition and a few bucks here and there, it also allows you to build up a portfolio of sorts too. How useful that will be will vary on genre and your other skills which you'll need to get your foot in the door of publication though...

Dealing with editors and publishers is increasingly a pain I'm told, even for well-known authors; we're not in Maxwell Perkins times, we're in the age of shitty little SJW type interns and other jumped-up muppets with delusions of grandeur. And accountants, let's not forget those bastard spawn of Satan who can only think of the bottom line.

>>9852745
Is your nickname James Havoc?

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>>9845554
Spoke to a fellow who was traditionally published, though he's Newfie and wrote non-fiction which is heavily sought-after by the Newfoundland Government for the purpose of tourism and culture. Pretty sure they actually provide funding to traditional publishers in St.John's (Newfoundland's Capital) to seek out non-fiction. He also told me that he got no advance even though I hear with big-time publishers a $5000 advance is a very common minimum so publishing on the island is a very different matter than publishing elsewhere. He's thinking of trying out some fiction, which I encouraged.

I write fiction, he read a bit of my stuff, and said it's better than some traditionally published books he's read. He's also a retired English teacher apparently so I took his praise to heart, meant a lot, and heavily inspired me during a difficult time in my life.

>>9852745
I'm suspicious of any story with a moral in it.

>>9851173
>Why wouldn't they publish it?

Integrity?

>>9856622
>Integrity?
you don't know much about publishing, do you?

I notice nobody here even really addresses the matter of 'online publication. '
I rather like that.

>>9858051
OP asked for published works, and when the word 'self' is not applied, then it typically refers to strictly traditional publishing. But since you bring it up, self-publishing is capable of being quite a lucrative venture. Feel free to drop some of the usual memes if you like, they've been debunked nearly as many times as the gender wage gap. Quite a few people make $5000-15,000 per month via self-publishing, and there are even some who stick strictly to self-publishing, forsaking traditional publishing. I can understand why, the royalty rates are infinitely better.

>>9858161
>$5k to $15k/month
citation needed

>>9856302
The moral was obviously a joke.

>>9858161
Do tell...

I've gotten a few short stories published and hope to have more published soon. I haven't been paid for any of it yet because I haven't managed to get in with that sort of venue. I've noticed lately I've been receiving a lot of encouraging rejections; that is to say, people are telling me that they're impressed by my writing even as they don't wind up publishing what I send them.

Maybe I just need to tailor my submissions more carefully. At the same time, it feels like I'm hammering at a wall, and I'm hitting it so hard it's cracking, but it hasn't broken yet. I wish it would.

>>9859503
Derek Murphy made over $30,000 between January-June 2017
His most profitable month was April in which he made over $8000. Not only is $15k/month possible, but he believes even $50k/month is possible. Kindle has a HUGE market, and the royalty rates can be as much as 70%, which means a $9.99 ebook purchase can earn the writer about $7 on that one purchase alone. 10 purchases is $70 USD (around $9.10 Australian or $8.75 Canadian, roughly). Derek Murphy has had years and years and years of experience in the publication industry, from editing, to cover design, blurbs, pretty much everything but writing. He took his decade+ of expertise and started writing his own books, self-publishing them, and unsurprisingly started gaining huge success quick.
https://youtu.be/2e2MWi1zXQ8

My most profitable month, as it turns out, was April 2017 too. On April 27-28th I made about $22 from those two days alone and reached #14,681 author rank for Kindle books on April 27th, my most profitable day, which was around $14-15. So authors who maintain a position higher than 14,681 make over $15 a day which is $450 a month, or $5400 per year. That's the height I've seen thus far, and I haven't even been writing for a year. My covers are free (and kind of shitty), my blurbs are likely not that good, and as I write more I'm definitely improving so my earlier books are probably not as good as what I'm writing now. So yeah, things for me are nowhere near ideal and I have had no experience in any form of publishing before I got started with my first book last October. Another thing is, I write what I want to write, Derek Murphy writes specifically what sells, he taps into the market and does a lot of advertising that costs little but makes him much more money. I don't have the money to do advertising.

>>9859503
With such incredible royalties available, and the huge amount of customers that the Kindle market has (tens of millions of dollars worth in Kindle Unlimited subscribers alone, plus the CEO of Amazon (pretty sure he also owns Kindle) might be becoming more rich than Bill Gates soon), it's no wonder that people can make thousands of dollars a month if they do everything right.

>>9859748
With traditional publishing, it typically takes around 6 months or more to hear back from the publishing company, and it's well known that the VAST majority of books are rejected. Most big-name publishing companies won't even consider a book unless it's being pushed by an agent, and a writer does not just 'hire' an agent. An agent has to see merit in the writing, and must CHOOSE to represent the writer. Their income is a small cut of the royalty profits, about 10% I hear. Meanwhile after an agent is found, after the months go by, if the stars align and you get taken by a traditional publishing company the best you can probably hope for in starting out is maybe 8% royalty per book sale. Someone like Stephen King who has a thoroughly established name and is highly popular, he can probably get 15% royalty, but there are no known cases that either I or Brandon Sanderson (successful self-published author) can verify in which a traditionally published author gets more than 15% royalty.

With self-publishing, your book can become available in paperback and Kindle within roughly 2-3 days after uploading it. You set the price. For eBooks, you can make up to 70% royalty which is HUGE! For paperback, one of my books are $9.99 for paperback and of that I make $2.58 which is of course over 25%. Another one is $8.99 and I make $2.84, which is over 30% royalty. If I were to ratchet the price up to $14.99 on that second book I would make $6.44 per sale which is 42.9% royalty.

>>9859503
>>9859748
So as you can see, there is potentially more money to be made in self-publishing than in traditional publishing. All that is needed are the sales. About 60% of all online book sales are from Amazon/Kindle so they easily hold the lion's share of online book/ebook purchases, and more and more people these days are shopping online instead of going to actual shops which is why so many stores and even whole malls are closing down. Amazon/Kindle will continue to expand and make more money. What the self-published author needs to do is get exposure. Check out books on Amazon, some of them have thousands of ratings, and generally speaking you got about a rating for every 50 downloads/sales. So if 1000 ratings represent 5000 sales, let's say the book is set to $4.99 for the ebook. That's about $3.50 royalty. That's $17,500 for 5000 sales. Amazon is accessable not just in the US, but the UK, Canada, just about all of mainland Europe, Australia, even Japan and India. Even if we exclude India (2nd highest population on Earth) that's over 400 million people in just Canada/US/UK/Australia.

>>9859944
Mainland Europe is somewhere around 700 million people, so that's over a billion people for North America, Europe, and Oceania. Add India and Japan, that's another 1.45 billion, which is over 2 billion total people with access to Amazon. I've had downloads in US, UK, Canada, Australia, Italy, Germany, India, Japan, oh yeah and I had forgotten Brazil. Over 200 million people there so now we're past 1.5 billion, so we're talking about roughly 20% of the entire human population with access to Amazon/Kindle, with self-publishing authors getting up to 70% royalty for ebooks or up to over 40% royalty for paperback, both of which FAR exceed anything that traditional publishers can reasonably provide. There are 'stories' of a traditionally published author getting something like 18-21% royalty on their books, but nothing that's verifiable, so yeah, even 30-40% exceeds anything that even Stephen King could expect with traditional publishing.

>>9859916
Doesn't the average self published author release fucktons of books to get the numbers?

>>9859944
>and it's well known that the VAST majority of books are rejected
Usually for a good reason too. Sure, sometimes writers just suck at queries or have a very specific niche in mind but generally, the books that are rejected, wouldn't do well on Amazon either.

Also while the royalty is a joke of course, a decent publisher safes you money and time on marketing.

Not arguing against the points you made tho.

Traditional publishing is basically for bitches who haven't got the memo yet.

Getting recognized by an agent/publisher is not a signifyer of quality. They want a product that can hit a market. So why not cut out the middle man and do it yourself?

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>>9860017
I reached that $15 day after releasing my 6th book, Derek Murphy says that it's at about 10 books that a writer really starts making money because by then not only is there more content, but also it's a huge learning curve in self-publishing. Constantly learning new things, new strategies and details. As you learn more, you get better.

>rejected books wouldn't do well on Amazon either
Just because a book is rejected doesn't mean it's not good, after all, how many times must a book be rejected until it finally finds a publisher who accepts it? Just because it is rejected once, or ten times, doesn't mean that when it finally gets published it won't be successful. There is a HUGE expense in traditional publishing, so when a publisher accepts a book they need to be SURE that it will sell. A 'maybe' is not sufficient, but a 'maybe' can still go either way even if it's rejected. Andy Weir wrote The Martian a little bit at a time on his website or blog, and people were loving it as they read it for free but they didn't know how to get it on their eReader so he was asked to make it available as such. He tried to get into self-publishing, managed to do it for free I'm quite sure (all 7 of my books were self-published 100% for free), and found that he couldn't make it available for free; $0.99 was the minimum, so that's what he set it at. I think he said he got 1000 sales in his first month, with NO advertising or marketing. The book just went wild with popularity and it kept increasing without lifting a finger.

Now, at $0.99 that's only around $350 for 1000 sales, but if he set it to $2.99 which provides 70% royalty instead of the 35% minimum for ebooks, he would have gotten around $2050 for those 1000 sales. Around $2600 if he were in Australia, or around probably $2500 if Canadian.

The royalty is no joke, very good rates, and a traditional publisher spends the lion's share of their advertising budget on their most popular books. Sure, your book will appear on store shelves and perhaps on their website, but if there's a Harry Potter books out, or a John Green book, or some other such traditionally-published thing, they won't give your new book with your unknown name a second glance. Also, just wanted to say again, self-publishing is free with CreateSpace/Kindle, so 100% of royalties is profit. I'm still getting the hang of it and only have 7 books finished, but I've made over $150 in about 4 months and a week's time. Most self-published authors make less than $100 in their first year, so it's definitely a slow climb, but the opportunity for $5000+ a month is absolutely there.

Pic related is what someone made in the month of October 2016, which is the month I released my first book.

>>9860040
Like I said here >>9860064 they do focus on pushing names that are known. J K Rowling, John Green, Stephen King, John Grisham, etc. If they pick up someone new, sure, they hope to at least make their money back but a HUGE number of books lose money for traditional publishers. The bulk of their profits come from people who have already established themselves. That's what I'm doing with self-publishing. I've been a self-published author for less than 10 months, got a few fans that I regularly swap emails with whom all eagerly await my next book, and if anything my rate of releasing books has been increasing as I maintain daily writing. Once I have the money to spend on custom covers instead of shitty free ones, I'm certain that will really help sales big-time. I've also yet to add an end page in my books that point out my bibliography, going to get around to that probably once I release my next book which will be within 2 week's time, potentially just a week.

Ultimately, a good case can be made that self-publishing is the future. A lot of stores are being forced to close down because more and more people are just shopping at home online instead of actually going outside. It's a lot more convenient, and Amazon/Kindle rule the online marketplace.

>>9850576
Just submitted my first MS to a publisher (fantasy epic, sword & sorcery thing) last night.
Have 2 complete, 3rd in the works and two planned but none published yet.
Really hoping it will get accepted but prepared for lots of failure.
Also find some of the requests strange. One has as their guideline 6 pages of synopsis. I figure if they want that much they can just have the book instead of that and sample chapters.

>>9851627
Do you have a list of good fantasy agents that isn't behind a strange paywall?

>>9851595
Don't have much money to spare so asked some friends if they'd proof read for me. They were very enthusiastic when I asked them. 2 years later, they're still too busy to read.
To me, that alone is a massive knock to morale

>>9860122
>6 pages of synopsis
What the kek. First time I see someone asking for more than 2. Even GRRM did it with 3.

>>9860130
"Tor Forge" asks for 3-10 on their submissions FAQ.

>>9860139
Well, it's up to 10, and 3 as minimum should be easy to hit with character development and the likes but setting 6 as a minimum seems a bit excessive.

Though I am glad that more seems the norm since I usually saw requirements in a lower range, which were bit limiting for my rambling about all the subplots. Generally synopsis seems rather simple once you decide how exactly you want to present it.

Now the query and elevator pitch, that shit is the pure horror IMO.

>>9860150
I prefer the elevator pitch to be honest. If I have to go into detail with one thing I don't know how deep to go, or whether I should explain occurrence 1, 2, 45 etc. and effectively write the book again.

Although I've only submitted once, I'm starting to wonder if I should just try and get an agent. Explain the plots once and have them go from there.

>>9860160
>If I have to go into detail with one thing I don't know how deep to go, or whether I should explain occurrence 1, 2, 45 etc
Heh, that's exactly why I find the elevator pitch so tricky., having to decide whether it's too short/general or too detailed, whether to empathize the characters or the plot more, whether the voice is too subtle or too gimmicky, etc, etc while with synopsis there is more structure and the focus clearer.

>>9860213
I like leaving the middle unclear. Start a, has to do b. Now the adventure will take the character from 1 to 2 to 3 to 4, all the while never keeping x secret.
Basically I want to pitch it sort of like a movie trailer.
The one I sent in last night needed only a 400 character description (yes, characters not words).
To me that's ideal.

>>9860230
Lately I am getting inspiration from movie log lines but combining it with voice and keeping it still as short as possible and not too vague ... guess I am just going to write multiple and pick it from there.

400 characters are about 80words or?

>>9860255
What I don't dream, I see as a film inside my head as I write it. Music, voice overs and all. I know where the story is going because 'I've seen this movie before', even when it's just come to me.
80 words or so yeah. Given the likelihood of rejection, especially on a first attempt, I think it's a shame that I won't be able to use that synopsis/pitch again.

has anyone here tried Amazon selfpublishing?

>>9860126
>a list of good fantasy agents
"Good" is relative to what you're writing. For instance, I'm writing fantasy that's not grimdark, has a female heroine, but no romance, modern setting, but not urban fantasy--no werewolves/vampires/fae/angels. The agents I'm going to target are probably totally different from yours.

>proof read
I meant more of a story edit than proofreading. You should be able to proofread your own work but beta readers can point out things like character inconsistency, plot holes, etc.

I think friends usually don't work for this. It's better to find a writing group that focuses on critiquing each other's work.

>>9861479
>modern setting, but not urban fantasy
Huh?

>>9862151
Urban Fantasy is code for the subgenre of tough bail bondsman/detective woman with supernatural love interests who kicks ass. Basically, Laurel K Hamilton's Anita Blake series and the many, many knockoffs

>>9861479
I like the idea of proof readers because of the fresh set of eyes.
As for agents, mine is a sword and sorcery fantasy in an overarching world.
The one I've submitted for now is with a male antihero, no romance (but all my stories avoid romance anyway) and a blend of historical European traditions. No vikings etc, just tradition of law (honor etc).
Also, no dragons.

>>9863587
Agentquery, Querytracker, and Manuscriptwishlist are free. They're much smaller than Publishersmarketplace which is only $25.

What state is your manuscript in? You've proofed it yourself at least once I hope? It's at least a third draft?

>>9863927
First has been finished proofed and edited. Twice by me, once by wife (always do a review, then editing draft, then review draft, then off to others to see if they find other faults).
Second has been proofed and edited by me and wife but waiting for other proof readers to go through whole thing again.
Third is being drafted.

>>9863934
Nice. What about beta readers? Have you gotten any feedback?

>>9865348
One complaint of sexism (not sure how but he's strange).
One complaint of not understanding one bit. Reworked a little but never got feedback on that.

For the rest it has been enjoyed. People seemed to like the main character, humor here and there, mysterious recurring character etc.

Now have to see if the same chapters to the publisher will open a door. Otherwise will have to try another and/or see if I can get an agent interested.

>>9865348
That >>9865587
was first story anyway.
Not heard anything back from 2 yet.

>>9865587
>Complaint about sexism
It happens. I had a short story accused of it but it was really just the critical theory style of "find a problem with something if there isn't one". What exactly did you write? Like, what was sexist to the proofreaders? Were they just reading too deep?

>>9866368
> Were they just reading too deep?
That seems like a shitty excuse. Sexism tends to be obvious and only the degrees of how bad it affects the work vary.

Though I am pretty curious too, perhaps the beta reader was an idiot and confused inherent sexism with the setting with the message of the book.

>>9866398
I haven't completed it, but a draft of a book I gave for a girl to look over never elicited complaints about the racism, because I think she understood that it was a product of the time the story was set in.

>>9866368
>>9866398
Mostly coming from the idea that the main character wants to have sex with a queen to spite her husband (from an enemy kingdom).

The thing is, it's not something I go out of my way to push, it's something that comes very naturally to the character who stumbles into things at times.

Perhaps he was reading into it too far because he's a Swede.

I have a book that got a fuckton of rejections from agents. The furthest I ever got was a request for a partial. Yet I, for one, think it's good, and others who have read it have liked it. Should I get back on the horse? Marlon James' story encourages me.

>>9867472
Heh, I am prolly even more critical about it than the average Swede since I want literature to be valuable and all ... but the example doesn't sound sexist at all. It's immature from the character (although pretty funny) and obviously objectifying the queen, just more in a manipulative asshat than a sexist way. At least based on the info given.

>>9867474
Did the actual book/partial got a negative feedback or simply the query? Your book can be fantastic but if you don't present it well enough, the agent won't even bother to find out.

>>9867517
I had to dig back through my emails to find the partial request, it was more than a year ago. The agent I sent the partial to wound up saying it was "an atmospheric read and rich in detail." When she rejected it, she said, "You deserve an agent who falls in love with it from beginning to end, and I'm sorry to say I'm just not quite the right one for this project." I get a lot of that, agents saying they're "not quite right."

>>9867517
Character is immature, queen is unhappy being tied down to one man, especially one she was married off to regardless of position.
Basically I got around any questions of rape by just making her a flirty slut whenever the king isn't around, trying to seduce guards etc who are terrified to do anything anyway.

But the fact that that whole part equates to 2,000 words or less in about 101k seems a bit strange. The rest puts a focus on him, his "quest", people and what he sees along the way.

>>9867529
Consider how many thousands of manuscripts agents get flying their way, if they give you their time to read your stuff and write somewhat personal feedback, you're doing a lot very right. The amount of writers they can work with is limited too, so it's not surprising that they would turn down a project that's good but just doesn't absolutely amaze them personally. If you got a lot choice, you can be picky after all.

I'd follow her advice and search for the right agent.

>>9867554
>the fact that that whole part equates to 2,000 words or less in about 101k seems a bit strange.
In a way yes but on the other hand it's variation. If the guy only complained about one scene, there is a decent chance that sexism isn't an inherent part of your writing either, and more indication that he's misunderstanding the shit.

The presentation is crucial of course. Take Witcher 1 and 3. Gerald fucks his ways through both but in the first there are cards for every conquest and women are presented as prizes, while in the third we just have a promiscuous character who likes to get his dick wet.

If it's already established that the character is immature and you don't present the queens love for penis in a judgemental way, it just doesn't sound sexist. If you want to be overly pedantic and make sure that even the not too bright readers get it, you could add some "wow, I was an immature fag" paragraph later in the story.

>>9867587
>add some "wow, I was an immature fag" paragraph
He's not that self aware. It's actually the only sex scene in the story lasting all of 2-3 pages and mostly describing the terror of the guards at being propositioned.
Standing there scare-oused with hard ons in their armor while the main character just wanders through.

>>9867587
>I'd follow her advice and search for the right agent.

I'm just not sure where to find "the right agent" at this point. For the longest time I've used the internet, especially Twitter, but I've submitted to a lot of agents on Twitter to no effect. The book is a fantasy story but it's rather allusive and the prose style is fairly deliberate. It owes a lot to Gene Wolfe, along with Melville and Borges. I've begun to wonder if the kinds of literary agents who have Twitter accounts aren't right for the kind of book it is. Maybe I'll go with an earlier idea I've had and start seeking out more old-fashioned agents and agencies, the ones that still make you submit by mail.

>>9867601
Another anon suggested these sites to me:
agentquery
querytracker
manuscriptwishlist
Perhaps they'd be of help. Not gone through them personally yet, waiting first for a reply from a publisher (that actually claims to reply).

>>9867598
>Standing there scare-oused with hard ons in their armor
Come to think of it, I never considered how armor would affect boners before.

If it's the only scene, I see how it would draw extra attention to it, but if he's presented as immature and not too self aware, and given the scene, it's just on funny side with an "he's kind of a dick" aftertaste, not sexism. Did the guy specify why he found it sexist at all?

>>9867601
Twitter accounts sounds like a painful way to go around it. Filtering through all the bullshit to get an idea of the agents taste takes way too long. On sites like manuscriptwishlist they specify what they look for and give examples of works they love and would dream to buy.

>>9867617
Nope. Just that he thought it was sexist. That's the only scene I can think of that would give that impression and I don't see it either.
Later he punches a few women in the face, but he's punching men at the same time (all ordered to attack him together).
So he could try and argue that bit if he ever did but I'd just ignore a complaint then.

>>9867601
it sounds like it is more suited to small/medium publishers instead of the big five.

>>9867608
those are the free ones. publishersmarketplace has the most. it's $25/mo

>>9867620
>Just that he thought it was sexist.
That's some meh-tier beta reader you got there. Obviously sometimes it's tricky to specify what's wrong/good with something, especially if you aren't a writer yourself but it shouldn't be too hard to explain why you find something sexist.

>>9867630
>it sounds like it is more suited to small/medium publishers instead of the big five.

Any you might recommend in particular?

>>9867631
My problem with proof readers at the moment is that they don't seem to want to do what they volunteered for. Current MS has been 'reviewed' by a few people and has been for the last 3 months.
Not a word about it and some have said they haven't started. I don't care if they don't if they just say they don't want to, but when you agree to do something and then don't it sort of twists my tits.

>>9867630
It may have the most but does that give it a higher chance of publishing? Genuine question.
Also, for $25 a month, does that mean I can sign up for one month and wait for a response in 6 weeks or do I have to remain 'up to date' to get a response?

>>9867640
Many people misunderstand what it really takes. In theory it sounds like fun but it's mostly work, a lot of it, so it's not that surprising that they bail. Saying variations of "no" isn't easy either, how many people would honestly answer that they don't want to hang out when asked by a friend, instead of coming up with some excuse? You could try working on a chapter by chapter basis if you haven't already, since it's way less daunting.

Unless you're very lucky and find someone dedicated, it often comes down to family members or partners to do that shit. Wish I'd waited when breaking up with my /lit/ girlfriend before I finished my last revision.

>>9867653
My wife has already done a revision (and helped with editing) before I went over that version and edited myself. Been able to do that with 2 so far.
It may be hard to say no, though it may also be hard to say yes as I've asked a few times "Are you too busy for this?" or some variation thereof.

Sometimes I think I'd like to be published just so I wouldn't have to find proof readers myself, could just have the publisher/editor etc take care of it.

>>9867660
Heh, I can empathize with it, although I guess the downside would be the temptation to rush it. When the proof readers are sparse and unreliable, there isn't the luxury to.

>>9867674
And I can only edit and proof read so much before I'm just sure that everything is right, skipping over faults because I don't see them anymore.

>>9867680
There are obvious things like reading it aloud (or having it read to you by your wife) and of course letting it rest for couple months. Oh and a bit more elaborate but very useful too: Starting another work.

I have the opposite problem, always finding things that could be done better, though I do it with published books too, so it's not like my writing is THAT flawed.

>>9867715
Started two since then (finishing one).
Still don't personally see issues, plot related or otherwise. So it's been sent to a publisher.
I have seen it said a few times from places that accept non-agent represented work that "it doesn't have to be perfect, just show that you've tried" sort of thing.

>>9867633
Sorry, I haven't researched them. My novel has pop sensibilities.

>>9867640
>a higher chance of publishing
It's a much larger database of agents than the others. You can sign up, research, send queries, and not renew.
Chance of publication is dependent on finding the right agent if your MS is good enough.

>>9867660
>>9867680
You and your wife have proofed it 5 times now. If you know what you're doing, I think you'll be fine. Your MS doesn't need to be ready for printing.

>>9867723
Will first see how a few short-term response publishers are and perhaps see how things go with the free lists to begin with.

As for the proofing, I'm confident in my stories and just hope they're presented right to both do them justice and see the light of day.
The emphasis on editing right causes concern that it may not happen without professional editing help. I know it's not true but that is the concern.

In addition to editing and all the rest, how can I present my genre properly to a potential publisher/agent?
I want to say sword and sorcery, fantasy epic, but it's no young adult thing.
Do I put "Adult fantasy"? Because when I say that, it sounds to me like erotica which it isn't.

>>9868328
Just say "fantasy." They'll know what you mean. Although "sword and sorcery" and "epic fantasy" aren't exclusively YA subgenres, so I don't know what the problem would be with those labels.

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>>9847020

This guy knows what's up.

I've published modestly in literary magazines and done a bunch of submission. I've been rejected ~150 times, mostly form rejections, though recently I've been getting notes back from the editors.

In order to get NOVELS published you need to either go the small press route if you want to write really literary stuff, and expect to make no money and get runs of like 1k - 2k, or you need to be very marketable, write the kind of big book that they can make a splash over and do movie adaptions of etc etc.

You can also get published by getting your name around doing journalism like Roxane Gay, or pic related.

Nonfiction, commercial fiction, and genre fiction are different beasts entirely.

>>9867601
>>9867630

I agree, your work sounds too niche for anything other than a fantasy publisher or a weird literary publisher.

Try TOR, but that's pretty much the limit of my literature knowledge.

You might also devote the next year or so to writing short stories and trying to get yourself noticed. Go for the big magazines.

>>9869808
Interestingly enough, I actually wrote a short story featuring the main character of the book, which is actually the first in a five-book series, and submitted it to Tor.com back when they were still taking unsolicited short story submissions. It did get rejected, but I got some personal feedback from the editors, which was nice. I do think you need an agent to submit to TOR, though.

>>9867601

I wouldn't put a whole lot of effort into finding the "right" one in any case.

Agents are full of shit, keep that in mind. There's a huge disparity in what they say they're looking for, and what they actually publish. It's not uncommon to see an agent say they're looking for literary fiction southern gothic style slashers, and then you look at the stuff they've recently published and see 100% of it is YA harry potter rip offs.

I think for this reason to, a lot of agents just flat out don't even list what they're looking for. That might be frustrating for would be authors, but it makes sense. They're looking for stuff that will make money.

Work your ass off with your query letter, so that anyone who reads it will find it irresistible. That's easier said than done, it took me a year to write my first novel, and it took me 2 years to figure out how to write a good query letter.

>>9869808
>>9869827
There's lots of room for fantasy in the big five publishers. They have lots of subsidiaries and imprints. TOR is under Tom Dougherty under Macmillan under Holtzbrinck. But it sounds like you're writing literary fantasy, which isn't doesn't have a big market.

I didn't mean to say "avoid the big publishers", just that you might have more luck broadening your net.

>>9869854
Tips for query letters?

>>9870606
I'm definitely open to a medium-sized or even a small publisher, I just want someone who appreciates the value that I think is in the work. Plus, it's not even a matter of publishers yet, I can't even seem to find an agent.

>>9870712
learn how to write one.

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>>9870739
Thanks, anon.

>>9870743
you can find a billion tips online on how it should be done.

Doing it is an entirely different matter, and only you can figure that out.

>>9869854
Almost like there isn't an identical amount of HP rip offs and southern gothic style slashers. Most of the shit written is pure shit but the more people write something, the better the chance that there will be a gem.

>>9871890
Sounds like my novel: Garry Totter and the castle of the masked vampire chainsaw massacre murderer where magic is learned.

>>9872120
>no school houses
Why even bother, anon. People love to put themselves into boxes, you better give them some.

>>9872139
You can't blow it all on book one, act one. Gotta make 30 of these with the exact same plot but different locations and characters.

Published an article in a jurisprudence journal. Nobody gives a shit and everyone is unimpressed when I tell them.

A friend of mine published a book of poetry when he was 18 (3 years ago), and another book of poetry 1 year ago. The first one was the best publisher in the country no doubt, the only serious one, the second one was pretty underwhelming publisher.

Very few people read him. I haven't because I don't read poetry at all. It seemed legit from what I've checked.

The situation is same as in the rest of the world kinda. There's my countries rupi kaur, some man that writes quotes from his prose book on Facebook, like "Some parts of life are worth remembering. Some parts are not. But some parts really are", and gets 3K likes every time. The fanbase is 90% women. On book fairs his stall is always full.

>>9871890

Well the entire publishing industry is basically just one giant gambling operation. Which is fine, but it just annoys the hell out of me when agents and publishers act like they know what they're talking about when they judge books.

Hell, most of the best sellers anymore start out as self published books, the publishing industry is too dumb to see their value at first, and we're supposed to take their opinions about writing seriously?

Oh well, that's the industry though, you just have to get used to it and find an in for yourself.

>>9874016
>most of the best sellers anymore start out as self published books
>most
lol no

>>9874212
If you can get a fanbase developed and tap into the market though, then self-publishing is where a lot of the money is. Paperbacks can get you 40% or more royalties, and ebooks can get your 35% or a whopping 70%. For traditional publishing you're lucky to get 15% royalty per book but generally it's more like 8% unless you're a BIG name that is basically guaranteed to sell big-time.

>>9874016
Well it is gambling, for all sides but mostly intelligent one like poker.

>it just annoys the hell out of me when agents and publishers act like they know what they're talking about when they judge books
Like any other critic or lit professor but agents tend to be more reasonable about it and admit that it's about personal taste. Since one can measure it in the amount of money a book makes, most successful agents obviously know what they are doing too. It's obvious that they can't always be right too.

Just who the fuck could've guessed that something like 50 Shades would have SUCH a big market?