so what is your number?

>>9839240
21

lol my schools not even here even though it outranks a bunch of other schools from my country listed here..

13.

>>9839240
holy javascript that input field

>>9839240
6

>>9839240
1

Where my fellow Oxonians at? We're number 1 bitches.

47

>>9839240
14, though I graduated over a decade ago.

Mine probably doesn't make the list. I dont know why I let it bug me so much.

>>9839383
Because other people value your personal worth based on your degree / alma mater?

>>9839240

>there are people attending the most prestigious universities in the world who still waste their precious youth shitposting on /lit/

>>9839398
We all need recreation and entertainment. Lurking on lit isn't worse than watching movies or playing sports.

Sub-250

201-250 but I'm not going to post in this thread about it because then people would find out I don't deserve to live.

>>9839403

>Lurking on lit isn't worse than playing sports.

The sharpest minds of the youth and our collective hope for tomorrow actually believes this.

We're fucked.

Why come MIT and harvard aren't best today

>>9839392
It's more that a value my own self worth based on it and that a certain quality of education will be forever denied to me based on the decisions o made as a teenager. That's not to say I was ever capable of attending a top school, but I could have done better.

>>9839418
because
>muh mixtape
thesis for English grads

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>>9839421
>mfw I fucked up my only chance in life to attend a top-5 university
>mfw I will never experience the Oxbridge life

Great universities do not make great men, rather it is great men who make those great universities.

71.

>>9839430

>tfw philosophy has been my passion since my early teens
>tfw I will never get to pay 100k to spend years of my life doing faggy truth tables at an autistic oxbridge analytical department

My university is the premier institution in the world when it comes to German idealism. Do you have any idea how much tail you get from being well-versed in German idealism?

>>9839438
only a sub-top 10 university student would say such a thing

>>9839447
Sub and top are antonyms, subs are bottoms.

Who's intelligent now?

>>9839441
Whatever makes you sleep at night. Nobody gives a fuck about your precious Hegel.

And
>paying 100k

Oxford only left me with 10k in student debt after I got my graduate degree. If you're truly a good student, you can have a free ride (scholarships, etc)

>>9839430
I really wish there was something that could be done about. Why do we tolerate this?

Genuinely shocked that UCB is top 10

>>9839459
Why? Do you believe /pol/ bullshit about it or something?

32

>>9839456
Because people who did not make correct decisions as teenagers will not make correct decisions as adults either. I don't want a 30 year old failure stumbling his way into my university to ruin its name.

>>9839464
One of the biggest hurdles is funding and the cost of higher education. Not being able to attend such a university isn't always due to personal failures.

>>9839469
Poor funding comes from poor parents who possess poor genes. A poor upbringing also leads to poor nutrition and child rearing, which leads to poor adults.

>>9839475

God, why can't poor people just die, they suck.

>>9839240
15
Although I'm studying art, and in that respect I consider it 1, maybe 2.

>>9839464
If such a thing would ruin a university's name, then that school wasn't worth much to begin with. What upsets you is that it hurt their ability to function as grooming centers for the upper class.

>American made list ranks american colleges rank as over the top
it's another "murrika" tier thread/list

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I couldn't get that shit to work

>>9839461
UCB is for retards if you're not in STEM, just like most radically left-wing campuses who perpetuate high school mentality

22
I can't believe that #1 in Canada still only means #22 worldwide and yet rich chinese people flock here like it's the fucking louvre

>>9839240
3

>>9839240
36

I don't know why I let its ranking bother me so much, I've been so much happier since coming here. It just sucks knowing that I'm not even in the top 10

Are you all serious? I'm sitting here at 501.

>>9839514

Me too but for graduate engineering. But it's a young country with a low populace and the universities are subsidized by the government. Oxford is like 1100 years old, being Top 25 isn't that bad.

>>9839306
2nd year St John's here.

The one I was going to attend back at home is >800th
The one I attended in another country is 80ish

2BH I'm not sure it made me happy.
pros
>make more buck
>experience new things
>access to more things
>meet new people
>developed countries have more vacations
>developed countries have cool museums

cons
>but everything's more expensive (including taxes) so it's sort of the same life you can afford everywhere if you stay at middle-high class income
>after a while it's just the same old "home - work" routine everywhere
>the globalized world with internet has made this trivial in recent years
>gotta meet new people and make friends
>which you will use to go back home anyway, might as well do it the other way round and live in comfy same old but travel to cool new
>you could visit these anyway during one of those travels
>public healthcare is better but if you're above poor you're paying stupid for private and private is the same quality (and I still can't find a good psych)
>living with a visa is annoying
>going up the socioeconomic lader is harder, middle class is greater but the gap to high and beyond seems just impossible, hard gaps instead of soft gaps
>it feels weird being a minority and being treated like one
>your family gets older while you're away and when shit happens you're not there
>people die while you're away

Is it better to study an arts or social science degree in the top 10 universities or an engineering/compsci degree in a top 500 university?

>>9839240
>tfw >800

>>9839623
This is a cliche answer, but do the one that inspires you or makes you dream of stuff, takes up your free time, etc.
If you only care about money, STEM pays better on avg independently of ranking.

>>9839514
It's hardly surprising, Canada has a small population and I suspect that a lot of Canada's most promising high school students go to America to take advantage of their schools. If you're gonna live in Canada most of your life and you go to UoT, you're all set

>>9839586
You're very right, although a lot of the American schools ranked above us aren't even as old as U of T and probably have fewer students. I am a little shocked, though, that the US and UK are somehow SO good that they almost completely dominate the top 20

>>9839668
I don't think that's true across the board, I only know two people who went to the U.S. and neither of them were very successful in high school. At least one of them applied to U of T and OCAD and didn't get in.
Personally, I wanted to go to Yale and was told I could get in, but never applied because I knew I didn't have the money and wasn't so successful that I could have recieved a serious scholarship.

>>9839696
I mean, I think any Canadian kid who is both exceptional and exceptionally ambitious would go to Harvard or MIT over UoT, no? I'm sure a lot of the country's top talent goes to UoT, UBC, McGill, but if someone is clearly super talented they probably want to go to the best school possible, no? I'm from Europe and over here any kid who is EXCEPTIONAL wants to go to Oxbridge rather than their own country's top unis

To be fair, the money thing could be a barrier for Canadians who want to go to the US, as a spoiled international kid I forget how unaffordable uni is

>>9839569
>Are you all serious? I'm sitting here at 501.

Believe it or not, /lit/ appears to be made up of, on average, upper class white men with a penchant for reading books. I'm around 350 myself, but my parents make together almost a million a year. This is an odd place.

>>9839743
I'm Canadian and attending grad school in the US. Went to UofT for undergrad. With tuition costs and the difficulty of uprooting and establishing oneself in a different country (especially for low income people, or people who need to support family while in school), it's much easier to stay in Canada.

We don't know enough about the US system. I don't even know what the SATs really are. For all my American friends who went to great universities in the US, their parents knew the ins and outs of the application process and managed it for them. My parents wouldn't have known the first thing.

If by top talent you mean people who are lucky enough to come from a family that micromanages their kid's college prospects to that degree, maybe. But then, a lot of the upper class and upper middle class rich smart kids at UofT had parents who didn't bother with the US either.

It's just not really on the radar.

>>9839696

It doesn't hurt when you have 20+ billion dollars in annual endowment (Harvard, Stanford, Yale, Princeton etc.)

If you actually look at the rankings and compare them and then check the methodology, you can see that "International outlook" and "research influence" are the biggest reason why certain schools can be ranked high on the world list but much lower on, say, the US College ranking.

In a word, the World ranking is only really of interest to Masters/Doctorate people and staff, not for undergrads.

>>9839835
What sort of high school did you go to though? Surely kids who go to expensive private schools aim to get into Ivy League schools or even Oxbridge?

I'm at UBC myself and know a few locals for whom UBC was a safety school while American schools were the dream. Then again, what use is anecdotal evidence?

>>9839796
Is this true? I've always felt that I'm in the minority here by not being working class

>>9839355
Wes?

8

STEMfag oxbridge reject

>>9839955
sorry dude. not wes.

56

Pretty good for a public school in a state that actively wants to destroy lower and higher education

Overall ranking is meaningless. You should only be interested by the ranking of your field. Some middling universities in an overall ranking have some top tier departments where they are near the top for example.

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165

>tfw sub-100

16

>UPenn higher than us
Bullshit list btw

>>9839500
The rankings are clearly based on research output. Undergrad shitters are irrelevant.

I have degrees from two top 20 universities.

And yet I've accomplished nothing and vent my misery and self loathing on image boards.

>>9839743
Yes, you're right, though that's really only true of people who are in good enough shape to get scholarships that cover a majority of their tuition.

>>9839850
That's true, even the lower tier of high prestige schools in the US tend to have double U of T's endowment ($2 Billion for U of T vs. say, Dartmouth's $4 Billion)

>>9839835
All good points. Canadians might be less concerned with the prestige of the school they choose to go to than Americans. I know tons of people who could have gone to a university with name recognition like U of T or Queens and went to more obscure schools for some reason or another.

Are you paying for tuition fully on your own, or did you recieve grants? I've been looking at Brown for English but that worries me.

201-250, but I wanted to stay close to home for undergrad so not even bothered.

>>9839441
if youre not studying under di giovanni, youre full of shit. and you should know that.

Anyone claiming to be in a top 20 university is lying because only whote people go on /lit/ and white people aren't let into Ivys or their equivalents.

>>9839569
Wow, are you rich yourself? That would be very cool to have lots of money.

>>9840420
t. brainlet
If you couldn't get into a top 20 Uni you're basically no better than your average nigger.

>>9840429
t. Jew
When I get home I'll post my ebin /pol/ infograph and BTFO you

>>9840420

>Being unsuccessful enough that a top 20 uni is unfathomable

150-175, at leasts it's got 66% females

tfw still a virgin

60

alright i guess

Why are anglos so obsessed with university rankings? Is it autism?

>>9840871
it's because competition is a big part of the way our society works, as opposed to your country where Sahib can step off the Islamic "religion of peace" TM refugee boat and right into the local school, where he'll be awarded a degree in Iberian poetry despite technically only speaking Arabic, or alternately, where University means doing math on an abacus for 2 years and then being recruited into the accounting team of a local warlord, depending on where in the non-Anglo world you live.

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301—350

>>9839240
158 :(

>>9839240
22. WHEN WILL WE BREAK THE TOP TWENTY FUCK
did the meme man fuck up our international standing. probably not I'm just being paranoid.

>>9841936
lmao sorry for making fun of your autistic number game

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101 FUCK YEAH

GO GREEN GO WHITE MUTHAFUCKAAAAAS

25. I didn't know we were rated that well.

>>9839514
Only upper-middle class Chinese people go to Canada mate

>>9841936
Competition? Anglos are dumb as fuck and most are depressed drunkards who LARP as college students™. Even when talking about academic rigor Anglos are shunned as dumb apes; and thus they need to reaffirm that they're not by creating this massive need to "WE IZ DA BEST" with these lists.

>>9839623
Arts and social science degree in top 10 universities because you can always switch majors when you get in

Number 60 in world, number 3 in Australia.

>>9840381
Probably coz of Wharton

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>>9842183
That's a lot of butthurt.

The CC and UC system in California is awesome, I barely graduated high school and was one of the lowest ranked in my class. I went to a cc afterwords and passively worked until I transferred in a top 10 school

>>9840420
I transferred to UC Berkeley smoking weed everyday for two years at a cc, it isn't that difficult

>>9839240
>tfw go to a College
that's cool

>>9842207
That's a lot of projection. How do I know? Because only a mentally subpar human being would accuse others of butthurt while showcasing a meme as to support their initial claim

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Who /buckeye/ here?

>>9842367
>anglos are dumb apes
>he posted in English

Rankings like this are pretty useless, they don't really tell you anything, especially for non-liberal arts degrees

>>9839240
80

>>9840871
because poverty and low scientific achievement is not something to be proud of

1, motherfuckers

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>>9839240

> tfw 601 - 800

Does anyone have a magnifying glass? I may have lost my brain.

>>9842191
>USyd

Ayy my man. What are you studying?

>>9840824
>>9842191
uq feels bad huh Im really starting to hate this place

>>9843015
All Australian universities are shit desu. Full of chinks and socialists.

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>>9839240
Ehem....

417.

>>9843018
I hear ANU is world class but yeah i totally believe you.

>>9843028
Sydney Law School is supposed to be pretty damn good. Hopefully will get into it one day.

>>9843015
Yeah, I'm doing history/English and about 10% of the cunts in my tutes actually bother reading any of the course content.

>lit is either full of ivy league alumni or posturing faggots who feel the need to lie on the internet
I wonder which the more likely

>>9843056
Because usyd is just a brand. Most students don't need to study, their families are loaded.

>>9839306
Represent!

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>>9842037
you and i occupy the same boat, comrade. keep your chin up, plenty of brainlets have done the extraordinary.

>>9842393
If I'm in a french website and still call anglos apes; does that invalidate my argument? Yeah, thought so, ape

>tfw second globally in subfield of subject according to recent ranking but only top 200 overall

>>9843108
If people aren't lying at least it proves that university rankings mean very little as far as the students' knowledge and intelligence are concerned.

>>9843108
>>9843416

A lot of people on this thread are lying, but there are some legitimate Oxbridge / Ivy league students on lit.

Also, being intelligent doesn't mean you're a good student - And being a good student doesn't mean you're intelligent.

>>9843165
What college are you at? Linacre here.

33

You could say im a big lad

351 lmao
Though I graduated recently so it's all behind me now

>>9843557
The position and status of your alma mater will haunt you for the rest of your life

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>tfw studying at a FREE elite university in my country which in the big picture is easy to get into, and also means that I'll be able to easily pursue a career in diplomacy that will guarantee me good salary and a satisfactory lifestyle, all of this with no student debt

sometimes the third world ain't so bad

>>9843774
>easily pursue a career in diplomacy

Is this what you really believe? I'm an Oxford graduate with a degree in international relations (with degrees in French and German), and I can't even get a fucking internship

>>9843754
Can you elaborate on why? Unless you're trying to go into academia, no one really gives a shit about where you graduate from. This is coming from a 2L at FAMU with multiple job prospects already, and I'm pretty middle of the road when it comes to grades lmao.

>>9843786

You didn't get it.

My university is the best in my country. That alone gives me a privileged position into getting into the foreign service. It's all relative. There's no Oxford or Harvard graduates trying to get into MY country's FS. You see it now? I'm also an IR student by the way, currently doing a year in Japan, FOR FREE.

>>9839240
67, so not amazing, but not bad. At least we have one of the top linguistics departments, which is what I'm majoring in, and I genuinely wanted to go to school here (UMCP), but maybe I should have aimed for something higher. I feel I did pretty good for someone who has struggled with general drug abuse and heroin addiction, and at least I get to stay near DC/Baltimore, two of the best, most /lit/, least pretentious cities in the US. We also have lots of hot ass sorority girls, which is pretty cool (and frat boys, who tend to be chill and mildly amusing).

Not even listed apparently.

>>9843786
Tbh I'm guessing this has more to do with you lacking charisma, networking skills, and connections.

>>9843108
/lit/ is full of people who pretend to have read books, shouldn't surprise you it's full of people who also pretend to attend prestigious universities. What's really telling is that despite all these supposed ivy league students who've read the entire English canon + "the greeks" none of them can hold a real literary conversation to save their lives. It's all just empty posturing.

>>9843842
He's probably ugly and short too

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>601

>>9843880
>>9843842

I'm 6'1,average looking and assertive. You just can't get a good internship/job in diplomacy without connections.

>>9843786
Really? I know a guy with a masters in politics from a non-elite Russell Group who managed to get an internship in diplomacy through basic networking (reaching out to people asking about opportunities, keeping in touch with them, etc.).

Are you sure you're doing everything you should be?

>>9843876
Yikes. Muh projection much? I went to a /lit/ meeting in NYC and there were only 6 of us, but we all went to the Yale Club afterwards.

>>9844036
The words of a true cuck. Enjoy a lifetime of watching DeShawn Tyrique Williams fuck your bitch.

>>9844083
Joke's on you, I don't even care about bitches.

20

Feelsgoodman

>>9839240
501-600
Why even bother anymore?

>>9844095

Although I have no idea how to use the resources granted to me and my first year GPA is only a 3.0 and I'm miserable in that environment and have no direction in life

Anyone have generalized advice?

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> too dumb to understand the ranking

what does it mean?

also
> worse than Deakin
this isn't accurate at all, how can rmit be lower ranked than the uni's that have lower entry requirements?

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>>9839240
>50
ayyy not too shabby

>>9843754
nah

>>9844134
It's ranked between 401 and 500 as far as I understand it.

>>9844134
Ranked worldwide between 401 and 500, the 32.6 is it's overall score, not sure about the 37.5 though.

>>9839240
>https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/2017/world-ranking#!/page/0/length/-1/sort_by/rank/sort_order/asc/cols/stats

=131

501-600
Ehh, it's good premed at least.

>>9839240
40
KULeuven reprezent

>>9842134

Hell yeah bro. MSU is hella cheap for me because of scholarships. I'm gonna leave undergrad with $15000 from campus research.

GO GREEN GO WHITE.

>>9844307
UGent hier.

It's strange that so many of you are attending ivy league universities but the posting quality of this board doesn't demonstrate it.

>>9842233
>I transferred to UC Berkeley
Despite having large research output, UC Berkeley is pretty easy to get into purely because the college is so big.

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Uni is a waste of time and money.

Hmm I wonder why Vanderbilt isn't higher. Also, wondering why Cornell is so high.

>>9839240
78

>>9839240
>113

I work in a supermarket.

>>9839240
>uni not even ranked

was i scammed?

How did Stony Brook make the list? Everyone I know who's even been to Stony Brook, let alone study there, is retarded.

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>>9844610

free here, that's probably why we are ranked 251-300 tho

>>9840381
Anotha columbia nigga

What is the best uni to take in Europe if I'm into philosophy, history, politics, lit and want to be a filmmaker?
>inb4 Oxford and Cambridge

>>9839914
The poorfags talk about their life circumstances more because they think it's somehow interesting. That's also why they push the "muh life experiences" meme so hard.

Why are tinpots American unis ranked so highly? Havard and MIT is understandable.

>>9845310
>Want to be a filmmaker

You can't become a filmmaker today without heavily sacrificing artistic vision and stylistic originality.

There is no more intelligent cinema community to defend and propel great cinema.

>>9845310
University college London and edinburgh

>>9845347
How so? I wnt to work in Europe
>>9845397
What about Bologna? What is the most lit college in Europe?

>>9839240
3

>>9845417
Dude the answer to everthing is Oxford and Cambridge

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>>9845453
So if ever want to make living out of art and humanities I have to spend 50k per year? Feels bad

>>9839306
Fourthed, but only for postgraduate which doesn't quite count in my opinion.

In the 40s. Looking to move up to a better school for post-grad.

I'll never understand why UQ is ranked so high.


So I'm paying nothing and I accidentally fell into the equivalent of a world class education just because I took all the easy subjects at highschool? Doesn't seem right.

>>9845395
Dunkirk was a great Hollywood film. You sound bitter because you lack drive and talent 2bh

>>9844428
Ik heb spaanse taalkunde gestudeerd aan UGent. Ik kom uit El Swlvador.

Yay!

>>9846184
Films like Dunkirk are becoming the new standard for "good film" and appreciation for film as a form of highbrow art rather than low to middlebrow entertainment is disappearing.

>>9845310
>>9845395
I agree, I dropped out of film school and did an English degree instead for this reason, among others. As a one-time insider, though, I'll give you this advice:
Don't try to get a technical education where they teach you the ins and outs of being a director or a screenwriter or what have you. Go somewhere that emphasizes the academic study of cinema over the practice of filmmaking, and while you're there, avoid obvioulsy lowbrow courses like "Science Fiction Film" or "Cult Film" as well as skill courses like Screenwriting or Direciting. Go mainly for courses that sound like they'll be rigorously academic, have small enronments, and are at the 3rd or 4th year level. It's also a good idea to take courses that emphasize history, theory and criticism, or semi-obscure recent trends in art film (e.g. ecocinema)

>>9846184
>>9846338

I saw Dunkirk yesterday with my familia and I loved it. There will always be some propagandist elements of varying degrees to war films - that is largely inescapable - but it was a genuinely brilliant film for what it was.

>>9846169
Look at the ranking criteria and it makes sense. It's just a popularity and marketability contest.

Notice how Anglo universities are disproportionately ranked highly

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>>9846338
This may sound like a retarded post and I'm sorry in advance if it sounds as a personal blog but I hope some of you can help me so: I have always been found of humanities, but looking at new trend of millennials crying about no job really puta me off as response is always "try getting a real diploma next time". I'm retarded for STEM or anything like it. What to do?
I'm aware about what are you saying about modern film and classes and I get that chances against me are 80-20 bur I want to give it a shot since it is my dream. However, I don't want to end on the street or be a wage slave if I fail so what is the best course that I can take which will satisfy me and possibly give me something to live off. End of blog post. It's ok if any of you don't reply.

>>9846509
I don't have an answer for most of this but I will say if you want to make movies start making movies, don't wait for education. Work in the meantime to save for a camera and use your money to fund small projects otherwise you are just wasting your time and aren't learning shit

>>9846509
get some kind of technical certification. it's less money than a degree and super practical.

>>9846509
You can always do the undergrad, then take >>9846552 's advice and go to college or something like that after you've finished. When I was in film school I thought I might go to college and learn to edit movies afterwards, or possibly learn cabinetmaking.

There are also more career-oriented areas you can study in grad school, like information sciences or teaching. I know people who got degrees in non-STEM subjects, both humanities and arts, and went on to do information science. Where I live, there are almost a hundred times more teachers' college graduates than there are teaching jobs, but it's the opposite in most of the world, so you could have some luck there too.

I'm a grad student in English lit and creative writing right now though, so don't think I actually make good decisions

>>9846370
Ok but you're engaging with that movie on a much less sophisticated level than the one on which people are meant to engage with serious art. That's the problem, the average "film buff" today is a person who likes conventional mainstream movies that are "brilliant for what they are" and doesn't care about the movies that are actually just brilliant without any caviats.

>>9846692
film buffs usually have shit taste and focus on trivial elements, but those artsy fags who think a ten minute still shot makes a movie important are also no-taste wankers

10

>>9844036

There is no such thing as a desirable internship.

>>9844083

>>9846692
Not that poster but Dunkirk was brilliant without any caveats. I am not a Nolan fanboy but that was an objectively perfect movie that accomplished everything it set out to accomplish with grace and intelligence. It's hard for me to understand how somebody could fail to perceive the visual and sonic perfection of Dunkirk. There haven't been any major English language films with its harmony and emotive power for a long time

>>9846709

Yeah true.

These days I'd rather watch Big Trouble In Little China again than some Stan Brakhage shit. If that makes me "less sophisticated" then whatever. I'll take it.

>>9846772
is there are decent quality screener? i haven't torrented a new movie in ages, maybe i'll peep it, i usually skip ww2 shit just because it's played out and too simple good v. evil shit

>>9846779
Idk, I saw it in theaters. It's one of the rare modern studio pictures that is worth the theatrical experience. I saw it in pupil-straining IMAX and it was fantastic, I might do it again this weekend.

The morality is not explicit or obnoxious, it is delicate and beautifully sincere

>>9846524
Yeah that is the advice I hear a lot about young filmmakers and I'm certainly doing it.
>>9846552
Technical certification?
>>9846627
Wow, for a literature board I thought you all would be friendlier towards philosophy and political science degrees

>>9846709
I group those people in with "film buffs."

>>9846772
That's still a very simplistic description. However successful Dunkirk might have been as a piece of entertainment, I'd put any book in my library up against it as bein more sophisticated.

>>9846778
Yep, and people like you are becoming 99% of the demographic

>>9847825
>9846627 (You)
>Wow, for a literature board I thought you all would be friendlier towards philosophy and political science degrees
did you reply to the wrong post?

>>9847843
Well no why?

>>9847847
bc I didn't say anything about philosophy and polysci

>>9847857
> I know people who got degrees in non-STEM subjects, both humanities and arts, and went on to do information science.
Idk if I misunderstood something

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>>9847838

>people like you are becoming 99% of the demographic

If you say so, friend. I used to be big into exploring cinema years ago but it doesn't hold my interest that much anymore. Not like reading does. If I'm watching a film I'll usually go for something entertaining. If it's your thing then more power to you. I don't care.

>>9847873
Information science means things like library science and archiving, among other things. It's not a science in the scene of biology, physics etc. it's closer to the humanities and can lead to work in libraries and museums. Recently there's been a greater emphasis on technology as well.

>>9847875
I sort of misspoke, what I meant to imply was that there's nothing wrong with having those tastes but too many people are in the same boat as you but get to this cult-like place in their head where the think that movies like big trouble in little china are the best thing in the world and worth studying

93 and 144 for two different degrees

>>9847897

I watch this stuff for entertainment, apart from that I'd never venerate it as being anything more than it is. You're trying to group me into a set that I couldn't be less related to.