who are the most effective rhetoricians of today?

what do you mean by "effective"

>>9823867

I thought Rogan and Dilbert guys mini-debate about this was pretty interesting.

Rogan opened with saying that Trump was a shitty public speaker and that he often fucks up his own lines with shit delivery. Rogan was speaking from a comedian's perspective where the process of finely crafting a line is of the highest importance. Rogan, seeing Trump's speaking from the perspective of craft, rightly noticed how Trump will often land a killer line and then IMMEDIATELY deflate it, almost as though he has no sense of when he hits a nice chord. He doesn't know when to just let it ring.

Then Dilbert guy comes back with like this de facto argument that Trump is 90th percentile public speaker because he creates an emotional experience REGARDLESS of craft that people want. He fills stadiums and it's not just a speech it's an experience which is clearly much more difficult to create than some autistic one-liner.

Rogan thought it was interesting and dropped it.
But then on second thought you can ask, are they really responding to Trump or just enthralled with him as a symbol? They come out to see the stump speech because it's a big fuck you to their political enemies. Doesn't that kind of make him not a rhetorician? more like a tool of the crowd?

it's the same thing with Obama. In hindsight all of his speeches sound stilted and dull. Yet at the time it was a widespread opinion that he was one of the greatest public speakers ON RECORD. CRAZY.
How can there be such a big change?
It's because he just stood for ideology and so people got a big dopamine hit from his speeches because he's a symbol of their triumphant ideology?

So under these circumstances can rhetoric be crafted at all? Or do you just need to be the right tool at the right time for the whims of the crowd?

>>9823867
Daniel Hannan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzNj-hH8LkY

He's honestly really fucking good. Probably the closest we'll ever get to Greek and Roman oratory again.

>>9823890
Remember who Obama followed, though, when placed side by side with Bush, he *does* look like maybe the best speaker ever.

>>9823867
e-celebs and youtubers

>>9823894
not gonna click this without a quick rundown first

File: 1465002650459-0.jpg (432KB, 2048x1536px) Image search: [Google]

432KB, 2048x1536px

>>9823867
Nigel Farage is one of the greatest rhetoricians of the 21st century.

>>9823894
I was literally about to post him. I spend all of last night scouring youtube for his speeches

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2j4oCDBbts

File: Al_Franken,_official_portrait,_114th_Congress.jpg (180KB, 1200x1500px) Image search: [Google]

180KB, 1200x1500px

Modern day Cicero desu

>>9824189
Could he have a shot in 2020? I'd love to see him absolutely fuck someone up during a debate

>>9824168
only if you're a limp-wristed closet-case

>>9823913
>when placed side by side with Bush
It's like winning a debate against an SJW. There's no practical contest.

File: 1467559981061.jpg (203KB, 468x600px) Image search: [Google]

203KB, 468x600px

>>9824197

>>9823886
Glad someone posted Self, despite being the biggest git out there

>>9824189
Look at this man's dead kike eyes, his perfectly laundered clothes, his weasel-like smirk. His is the face of human evil, i am sure of it

>>9824195
I'd like to see it but unless the DNC really changes he would play Bernie to Hillary 2.0. He's wicked smart, well educated, and has a bipartisan spirit but I'd expect the DNC favoring Booker over him.

His name is Enoch Powell, but he died.

>>9824223
Maybe as VP. I can see him preferring that spot over presidency. Booker wouldn't be all that bad as he'd "revitalize" the democratic party, and he's black

>>9824227
VP would keep him close to the Senate. Booker has become very popular and is a safe but "exciting" choice. Can't wait to see /pol/ react to a black and a jew on the Democratic ticket.

>>9824264
It's not just /pol/ who will react negatively though. Most white folks in the rust belt are soft racists who don't want the US to become Brazil. If Democrats openly embrace their identity as the party of mystery meat socialism, they're going to fail again.

>>9824223
implying bipartisanship is a good thing

>>9823867
Trump is not a rhetorician.Trump is a shamanic multimedia phenomenon. Trump's understanding of the world is savant like, prophetic. Focus Groups and Ivy League wonks can only skim the surface, Trump plunges into the collective unconscious and emerges possessed by chthonic forces. Not even the most learned architects of the spectacle can approach Trump's intuitive mythic illumination. Trump is a vortex of world historical significance, a mass phenomenon like Mao or Hitler, updated for the hypermedia age. The 20th century totalitarian fuhrer archetype was a distant, dignified god like figure. Trump is anything but distant, a trickster god who channels wrestling and reality tv catfights. Trump's entire career to date has been an act of ritual magic, the wielding of the man to the archetype (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yosAVMB47-Y). Trump's favourite movie is Citizen Kane. I imagine Trump as a Sage who sits in a state of gnomic concentration before a screen deriving hieroglyphic insights from fox news and twitter, the most hieroglyphic of media, as far from the western democratic ideal and even the Gutenberg mind as one can get. the evolution of media has led us out of the polis and into the wilderness.

>>9824290
That's true. I don't see a win coming from the Democrats anytime soon unless they offer anything beyond playing the Not Drumpf (tm) card and have a strong, united policy.
>>9824312
It is if you want to be productive in Washington.

>>9824189
Really? All this does is out you as a hopeful democrat trying to advertise his party's potential nominee. He has a hideous slur, can't tear himself away from his notes, his voice is often dull and uncharismatic, his vocabulary is lacking... In what way is he a good rhetorician?

>>9824189
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTgu5w5gRtE

This is the absolute best America has to offer?

>>9824321

First time I've seen this pasta, pretty good

>>9824189
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iH3hPOp7cp4

I'm watching more and more of him. What about this man appeals to you?

>>9824328
Not the guy you were talking to, but the Democrats have nothing else to offer except Not Trump. Stale economic promises that essentially boil down to capitalism-lite, without attempting to reorder basic power relationships that will address the root of the problem, pandering to, and I hate this term, identity politicians, and open borders aren't going to cut it. They need to commit to a quasi-socialist platform a la Huey long if they want a shot at winning.

>>9824321
>citizen kane is all about accumulation: Donald Trump as an heterodox marxist film critic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a63ymFn6nS0

>>9824036
>posh oxford cunt
>civic nationalist
>libertarian
>pro-brexit
>really fuckin' charismatic, good at speaking, clearly articulates ideas, provides charity to opponents, and still destroys them

Rhetoric is stupid.

>>9823867

as others in this thread have pointed out, persuasion is always already ideological investment, so the question is unanswerable as stated

File: 085.jpg (53KB, 960x504px) Image search: [Google]

53KB, 960x504px

Bernie Sanders. Came out of nowhere and riled up millions of people against the Jewish bankers while not naming the Jew while being a Jew. How is that not a master of rhetoric?

>>9824654
Attacking "the rich" whilst going along with their broader social and cultural policy isn't particularly master rhetoric.

>>9824328
>playing the Not Drumpf (tm) card
This should actually do it, but Americans are retarded, thinking an insane billionaire is their best option

>>9824725

Well he has convinced millions of people that they're going to die if they don't get socialized healthcare. That's talent.

>>9824725
It's the very definition and spirit of rhetoric. Read The Gorgias.

>>9823867
Barack Obama, unironically