Is transgenderism ultimately rooted in platonic metaphysics?

>>9799493
>Is transgenderism ultimately rooted in platonic metaphysics?

no

>>9799493
it sounds more like a cartesian problematic to me. The transparency of the mind allows the transgender to see that their self is contained in mind stuff and that their body is separated from that mind stuff.

>>9799506
further we can state the transgender skepticism as: How can I be sure that I am really a male or female? A Kantian transgender question would be something like: What conditions make it possible for me to be able to tell that I am a male or female? Not really a good question or one that transgenders ask. I haven't read much Kripke but he'd probably know how to answer this question best.

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What would Nietzsche think of boipucci?

Yes.
Considering how alien an immaterial soul is to its material body, is it any surprise that a soul of the wrong gender would be fit even more uneasily within the body of the wrong gender?
There would obviously be a clash that would affect both the soul in terms of its ability to feel grounded within the body but also the body in that the soul hates it.

>>9799493
No. Castration held important religious significance in all Gnostic cults. (This is why it was always such a big deal in Christian canon law, etc.)

Modern day Gnostics are no different, even if they place a light veneer of 'scientificity' on their ancient practice.

Ultimately it is a statement of rejection of biology, since Gnostics deny the validity of the material world and hold anti-natalist views.

>>9799692
Oh shit that sounds amazing.
Do you have any sources on that?
Is any gender applied to the soul or the world?

>>9799702
>Do you have any sources on that?
Not really, the serious ones aren't in English. That said, the continuity of beliefs and practices from ancient cults all the way to modern secular zeitgeist is common knowledge even among the anglophones.

>Is any gender applied to the soul or the world?
Not quite sure what you mean, but if I understand you properly, then no, definitely not. Gnostics don't believe in the reality of sex, and 'gender' they view as a pernicious illusion. (Basically matches what the modern man believes, but a very far-out and extreme view historically.)

>>9799527
>What would Nietzsche think of boipucci?

Men that abandoned god, and made gods of themselves, and proceeded to worship themselves?
He'd get on his knees and succ

So being totally honest. Because people are always wondering about this. Traps transition because living as a male is too hard. And because they are sexually attracted to straight men. I mean they vastly prefer them to a gay men. Of course no trap is going to admit this in public because it's too embarrassing. But it's the truth. The idea of your being a female trapped in a male body is just a metaphor. But I think they get the idea from the fact that they are genuinely aroused by heterosexual sex. Which leads many to consider themselves heterosexual despite being exclusively attracted to men. I'm exceptionally smart for a trap and I never once thought I was a female. Just a distinct type of homosexual. And no trap conducts a detailed phenomenology of their embodiment before deciding to transition. They look in the mirror, decide they'll look cute and do it. But if you're interested there are plenty of books and research papers on the topic. One study on brain structure found that the cortical structures underlying body perception are compromised in the feminine direction. Which explains why it was impossible for me to undress in front of other boys. And there is also a good book by Gayle Salamon on the topic. She is a feminist and says that body recognition and ownership (the felt sense of inhabiting the proper body) is socially constructed. Idk. Perhaps she's right. But her ideas are mostly taken from Freud, Lacan, and Merleau Ponty, who is brilliant btw. (Surprised he isn't discussed on /lit/ more often.)

But please make a difference between the political types that push this idea of traps being actual women. And most traps. I can't stand the political ones personally. They are like the trap-equivalent of feminists. It's so embarrassing....

>>9799740
>raps transition because living as a male is too hard.

They transition because they have mental illness that causes them to feel uncomfortable in their own bodies.
Similar conditions cause people to try to be very, very skinny, or very, very muscular.
Its pretty well established stuff.

>>9799750
Yes body perception is compromised and there is a significant amount of undifferentiated pain. But the fact is body perception is too abstract to be readily detected, much less acted upon in so drastic a manner. But your sexuality is. Merleau Ponty put it like this. "Sexuality is life itself."

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>>9799750
>babbies first day on /lit/
Haven't you ever lurked an evolution or economics thread? Well established conclusions drawn by professionals (ie Jews) are no match for conjectures drawn by shutins who occasionally read philosophy.

>>9799740
Living as a man is difficult when you don't want to. The depression, suicidal ideation and social isolation comes in burrows itself into your head and you can't get out. Imagine being unable to express how you feel, feeling the need to lie to everyone, because you're lying to yourself. It really hurts because you don't want to do anything. And its not mostly "hard to be a man" a lot realise this feelings before/during puberty and hate what their bodies are changing to. On top of that, while transitioning can certainly alleviate some of the feelings, the residual "look at that freak" still lingers whenever dealing with other people.

Gender dysphoria is a horrible thing to struggle with

>>9799795
hell yeah! I hate holding the door to women

>>9799795
Yeah that's true. But that's only when people don't know about you. It's awkward because you think that they might know. It takes time before you realize that they genuinely don't know. But sometimes it's better to tell people depending on the situation. When you are honest people are generally pretty freindly. At least in my experience. They won't see you as a woman but if doesn't matter if they treat you decently and with kindness. But truly in my experience I never felt like a woman inside. Even if I am, anon asked a good question: how would I even know that? All I do know was that living as a male was too rough too mean too insensitive. It was just too much. I transitioned when it threaten my ability to survive. I honestly wanted to be able to live as a male. But I couldn't. Men didn't give a shit about me, and women just had contempt for me. Now people sing a different tune I can tell you that. And my life is a lot better. I guess I shouldn't generalize about people. But that's my experience. I'm not afraid to admit that I failed. It's true. And I love the truth.

This is nothing but a manifestation of the Lacanian barred subject, when confronted with the impenetrability of the signifier (in this case the sexual organs). "Gender dysphoria" is not inherently different from any other kind of shock when desire is confronted with the real.

>>9799716
>Gnostics don't believe in the reality of sex, and 'gender' they view as a pernicious illusion.

I agree, but no one believes in the reality of sex or gender. People wouldn't be so desperate to flaunt their roles throughout their whole lives otherwise.

>>9799750
This. It's a mental illness. Trannyposters stop pushing these threads now.

>>9800089

How is a "woman in a man's body" any more absurd than a "man in a man's body"?

>>9800103
Top kek, is this bait

>>9799692
>>9799716
>"all Gnostic cults"
>"Gnostis"
>perpetuating outdated heresiological categories from antiquity in 2017

19th century German theology called, they want their categories back

>>9799740
>living as a male is too hard
>In any country that actually let's you transition instead of just killing, stoning, or locking you up.

Right you are. And meanwhile being an ugly woman who can't get pregnant is just life in the fast lane.

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>>9799493
transgenderism is an incoherent leftist ideology. when faced with the contradictions in their thought, lgbtsjws can only screech: you are a white malee reeee! hate speech! hate speech! these people are mentally ill, they should be locked safely in an institution somewhere, rather than placed in a fucking pedestal and allowed to wreck western civilisation in the name of victimhood

>>9799493
>tfw you will never be able to pass

There is no place for the kind of internal/personal gender/sex that trans people insist upon. Biological sex is biological sex. Gender as social roles/norms associated with sex is public and a matter of how you are taken up by those in your milieu -- i.e., not a private introspectible quality. If brains can be "masculine" or "feminine" (read: more structurally similar to that of the average male/female) then this is a secondary sexual characteristic that, like the others, is not essential to biological maleness or femaleness, and trans people -- if their claims to a "male brain" or a "female brain" are accurate (I suspect this is just a way to make "I'm a woman inside" sound epistemologically respectable) -- are in fact just evidence of this, given their biological sex. And they cannot attain to social femininity or masculinity merely by claiming it, but must be taken up in the social milieu as the gender associated with the other sex (i.e., they must "pass").

Claims like "I feel like a woman inside" are predicated on a crypto-Cartesian metaphysics, where the mystical interiority of the subject is assigned a truly puzzling chimera: a kind of sex or gender that is neither biological nor social -- both of which are public in nature -- but is private and internalized. Of course, "cis" people never apprehend their sex/gender via introspection; "feeling like a man" for a cis man is simply the pride in excelling at society's ideals for masculinity, whereas trans men claim to "feel like a man" in another way altogether. But there is nothing that it is like to be a man in that way, so the claim makes no sense.

The most epistemologically respectable position a trans person can hold is that they are whatever sex their "birth" or "assigned" sex is, but that they experience intense discomfort/distress regarding their primary and/or secondary sexual characteristics and/or their being taken up as the gender associated with their sex. The best result for them is a successful transition, where they achieve some level of comfort with their bodies and manage to be taken up as (not merely "treated like") the desired gender. Of course, none of this makes claims to any magical deep-down sex/gender property.

>>9799496
Transgenderism is not rooted in platonic metaphysics, it's rooted in mental illness.

>>9800207
/thread.

>>9800198
I'm not sure I buy into this distinction of 'introspection' you're making. Whether one is able to unconsciously or consciously determine their own gender, seems irrelevant. Replace the notions of gender with Christianity and Atheism. Within a particular culture, religious dogma can be so strong as to make the atheist into heretics and satanists, when they feel nothing of the sort. They simply lack a belief held by others. In this kind of climate, the Christian does not need introspection to identify as Christian, where as the Atheist does. Regardless, neither were born Christian or Atheist. It was an understanding that came unconsciously through acceptance into a dominant culture, or through introspection and rejection of a dominant culture.

I do agree that all of this lgbt dogma about "being born that way" is utter horse shit. We were all born as babies, unable to see anything, unable to understand anything. Any expression of gender or sex must be secondary, it has to be taught and learned.

Trans people are not human. The guy who invented the distinction between "sex" and "gender" was a suicidal homosexual pedophile.

>>9800198
Shut the fuck up dumbass

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>>9800228
>it has to be taught and learned.
In 2011, internet journalist Daniel Villarreal advocated queer acceptance by writing: "I and a lot of other people want to indoctrinate, recruit, teach, and expose children to queer sexuality AND THERE’S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT." [26]

>The next day Elliott asked for magazines to make a collage about things people should know more about, adding glitter and photos of Beyonce and trans actress Laverne Cox next to words like bodies, consent, racism, gender, and decolonization -- which they asked for help writing.

>>9800228
>Any expression of gender or sex must be secondary, it has to be taught and learned.
Do you seriously believe this? Do you seriously think that people TEACH boys to want to stick their peepees in girls, and vice versa? Do you not understand the obvious evolutionary nature of "gender roles"?

You are mentally retarded. I mean this: you have a mental defect, a hole in your brain somewhere, that compels you to believe such obvious bullshit.

>>9800228
Introspection is relevant because trans people claim to discover their "real" gender that way, and that only they could really know because only they have access to it. I obviously disagree with conceiving sex or gender as a spooky private quality only accessible via introspection, so I'm not sure you disagree with me.

I will say that "being born that way" is a scientific question. Setting the limit at birth instead of conception allows for all sorts of hormonal influences in utero that surely impact the infant's anatomy and physiology and -- via the anatomy and physiology -- its eventual psychological makeup. That said, it is important to distinguish "being born that way" from a claim to some sort of radical innateness that doesn't stand up to biological scrutiny.

>>9800119
I would never transition if I would turn out ugly. Believe me that would have wrecked my life. I'm more attractive than most women are. So it is actually pretty enjoyable.

>>9800103
Women do not have a penis to enter the man.

>>9800268
But then so is being an attractive male, so it still moots the point.

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>>9799493
reminder that this is what leftists and the lgbt community mean when they talk about 'abolishing the gender binary'

>>9799926
This is brilliant and surprisingly accurate.

>>9799493
Socially, transgenderism in its current form is an agenda pushed by the Jews in order to weaken the masses by introducing unneeded conflict and preventing the discipline and education of young minds; it's freedom of speech weaponized, as are things like X shaming, or feminism.

>>9800255
Yeah man, not talking about instinctual desires to fuck. Dogs and dragonflies do this as well. They surely have no concept of gender. They have no concept of anything it would seem.

>>9800256
I'm a bit of an agnostic when it comes to gender expression. Whatever a person tells me they are, thats what they are. For me to assume to have better information, of what is a psychic phenomenon I can't access, seems pretty silly. Whether or not they are being 'honest' or 'lying' doesn't matter. Whether or not this is an illness or normative behavior also seems pretty damn irrelevant.

The imposition of external categories (male or female) onto another person, is a bit of semiotic violence. It'd be like saying "Your name isn't Jim". or "You're not alive", when the person claims to be alive and named Jim.

>>9800298
What if someone tells you they are cat?

>>9800298
>The imposition of external categories (male or female) onto another person, is a bit of semiotic violence

aren't the marxist attacks on gender and the family basically just semiotic violence on a massive scale?

>>9800298
>Whatever a person tells me they are, thats what they are. For me to assume to have better information, of what is a psychic phenomenon I can't access, seems pretty silly.
My whole screed was a rejection of the conception of gender as a psychic phenomenon. It isn't one.

It seems there is a trend among transgenders (at least the images you see online, I know none personally) to not just dress feminine, but almost what could be called hyperfeminine. Is it borne out of a fear of being noticed, or maybe there's a bias to what gets attention?

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>>9800253
>>9800288
I think instances like those pictures are bigger detriments. A lot of trans people dont want the attention, and just want to live their lives, as difficult as they already are, and things like this adds to the overall contempt held by a fair number of people.

I want an open dialogue about the state of transgender people, without making a circus of it by throwing kids into the mix

>>9800285
You mean being an attractive male is enjoyable? I mean. I looked girlish as a boy. While I had regular and symmetric features, they were feminine features. And girls didn't find me attractive at all. Girls like dominant males more so than simply pretty ones. And besides I like males. There was nothing worth living for as a male. I'm a lot happier now. Besides men are so much nicer to me now lol.

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>>9799493
woah so diverse and progressive

>>9800323
transgenderism is a deliberate political program aimed at transforming society. It is an ideology grounded on extremist social constructionist views of humanity.

>>9800334
How's that? If gender is a social construct, then people are whatever gender society decides. But surely trans people wouldn't want that, since they would simply be whatever gender they get treated as instead of their desired gender.

>>9800304
Yeah, like other-kin and furries? Those people are what they say they are. To argue otherwise is futile. I admit some skepticism at these claims, but on what grounds do I debate it? Biology is plastic. Even if they aren't biologically a cat (ie possessing cat genes) they surely can be, with the right technology.

Species categories aren't as rigid as you might assume. We're all different on a genetic level, its mostly a matter of what can cross-breed and what can't. Even that barrier is falling apart with all of the "chimera" research being done about human/pig hybridization.

While in a sense, my agnostic position on identity politics is pre-emptive, it's the safest way to deal with the external world. Whatever hard rigid identity categories exist today are slowly dissolving.

You can be whatever you want to be. I really like this Baudrillard quip about reassigning a person's astrological sign.

"Plural identities, double lives, objective chance or variable-geometry destinies - all this seems very much like the invention of artificial, substitute fates. Sex, genes, networks, desires and partners-everything now falls within the ambit of change and exchange. Destiny, pain - everything is becoming optional. Death itself is an option. The very sign of birth, your astrological sign, will one day be optionally available in a future Zodiacal Surgery Institute, where, under certain conditions, you will be able to change your birth sign the way you can change your face today. "

>>9800326
Do you like dominant men or handsome men more?

>>9800334
Transgender people have existed for centuries, it is not a recent phenomenon. Now with access to mental and physical health options, more and more are coming out. Whats wrong with that? It's not your life, they're trying to live their own

>>9799493
>body and mind are separate
holy shit aren't there like a thousands sources that have already skewered this retarded idea

>>9800342
you're insufferable, fuck off

>>9800342
I'm just going to go ahead and say it: metaphysical bullshit reasoning isn't great not because it isn't true, but because it is far from being a useful, or even usable, mindset.

Now calm it down, Autismo.

Omg I just have to say this. Why are so many people on here saying it's political plot or scheme to undo society? Lmao all I wanted to do was look pretty and get a straight boyfriend.

>>9800338
>If gender is a social construct, then people are whatever gender society decides. But surely trans people wouldn't want that, since they would simply be whatever gender they get treated as instead of their desired gender.

Transgenderism is a contradictory ideology driven by resentment and originating in women's studies departments, as far as you can get from actual science. this is not science, this is leftist social engineering and im against it

>>9800360
Sitting on your arse and watching TV all day is also a political plot, and many people want to do just that.

Learn to take demographics in a non-personal way.

>>9800342
If you want an end to all signification, categorization, and limitation, then why the fuck are you even participating in this discussion? Why are you even using language at all? God, I just imagine someone like you showing up in literally any conversation about any subject and slowly revealing yourself to be a fucking court jester saying "heheh, anyone is anything, all signifiers are floating, heh, better not have an opinion or decisive thought, it's all very postmoderne"

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>>9800360
because it's an easy answer to have someone to blame about something that doesn't fit into social norms. they crystallise in either, the government, Jews, cultural Marxism etc. and the fact that the world is large, chaotic and random isn't a satisfying answer

>>9800344
I like dominant men more than handsome.

>>9800352
I don't know, maybe tell us one of the thousands

>>9800354
I disagree, a wide spectrum skepticism and agnosticism towards identity categories is the most useful, utilitarian way to approach these topics. Rather than waste time debating a person's gender, I just go with whatever they say. It's incredibly simple, it's incredibly useful (in the social sphere).

The backlash against these 'new' categories (the transgender, transpecies, transrace, whatever) always comes from people who feel the need to defend their own category, to act as a gatekeeper. This gatekeeping is a waste of time and energy. It does nothing, more so the obvious historical trend is towards ever more categories, ever more identities, the erasure of barriers between identities.

You can imagine some point in prehistory when "naming" was invented, and people began having personal names. You can imagine some period before the evolution of sexual reproduction when there was no sexual difference. Changes like this happen all the time, on the genetic and social levels.

You can imagine a far flung future when everyone has not only a unique name, but a unique species, a unique race, a unique gender, etc etc. This is the trend of categorization, to create distinction until all difference is understood and nothing is "the same".

>>9800326
>You mean being an attractive male is enjoyable?

Yes. It was just the statement that being male is hard, but I guess you meant when you are trans? Either way, good for you that you can feel happy and attractive being yourself.

>>9800338
>If gender is a social construct

There is no if, google third gender, etc. But saying it is social construct means it is a framework which you use to navigate in order to establish your personal identity, it doesn't "simply" make you some fixed thing.

>>9800395
How did you manage to read and respond to a whole long post critiquing the idea of gender as a private psychological category (>>9800342) without even considering the idea that gender might not be a private psychological category?

>>9800374
Sounds more like an ignorant, semi-paranoid reductionist interpretation of the slightly more nuanced situation where a lot of people have a lot of different reasons for watching TV at any given moment, and somewhat fewer people have somewhat less divergent reasons for making the first group watch as much as possible?

It's not really a plot, and it's not really political.

if you have a personal identity before gender, doesn't it mean that, that personal identity is the framework and gender is the fluid semiotics

I personally think this whole distinction between gender and sex is a bit shaky, in nature for example,male peacocks have those fancy tails which they use to impress girlcocks. what that means is that the semiotics of gender is pretty fixed for them since big fancy tail = attractive.

>>9800404
Yeah living as a male in junior high // highschool was hard. But it's easier now. Things are easier for women. People are nicer, more considerate, more helpful. You feel like whatever happens you'll be protected. Whereas when I was a male the competition was ruthless. It was more do or die kind of thinking. I hated it. Females compete too. And it can get pretty vicious. But it's mostly to do with looks and intelligence rather than their work. But I don't give them the upper hand. I just keep out of the way. Cause I don't have the "equipment" to compete I'd rather not give a woman the chance to use that against me.

>>9800434
FUCK OFF

>>9800404
But thank you all the same anon!

>>9800434
I don't know how much help we're going to get from looking at animals. Their social and cognitive abilities are pretty different.

But as a counter example, check out research done into gay, necrophiliac ducks. Male ducks will chase down other ducks, kill them, and fuck them. It isn't clear if this comes out of confusion or is intentional.

Frogs and other amphibians can grow the opposite gender's sex organs, so that's pretty fucked up too. Elephants have been known to rape rhinos. Homosexuality is found in bonobos. etc etc. But I doubt whether animals have 'sexual identity' like humans do. I think that requires a reflective, introspective ability and the ability to perceive social stigma and taboo.

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>>9800395
>>9800342


>tfw you incarnate the content less post human fluid subject of late capitalism

"I want to be everything, and I want to be also kind of nothing."

"I think I'm—hopefully, this will become the new normal, too. I think I'm weird because that I feel very genderless, I feel ageless, I feel like I'm just a spirit soul, not even divided by human being, or I treat the animals the same or, hopefully, treat the planet with as much respect as possible."

http://www.teenvogue.com/story/miley-cyrus-explains-how-she-is-weird

In southern Italy, transgender individuals have their own feast day and patron saint, as they do in Samoa. Transgenderism is a more or less rare neurological variation, not inherently incompatible with a traditional society. Many cultures don't make a big deal out of it. But our society goes a step further, driven by market imperatives, it strives to abolish everything that stands in the way of the sovereign freedom of the consumer unit.
I don't think this is a way to build a sustainable society.

>>9800304
That would be great. Isn't this a literary forum?

Supposedly literature is supposed to enable your imagination, empathy, and ability to identify with people who are different from yourself?

So, one day you woke up as a cat? What then. Do you have the abilities to live and express your feline nature? How do you become more you?

>>9800437
>>9800439

I see where you are coming from, but do you think some of it might be feeling as an outsider as male and accepted and established now?

Growing up as male, I always thought of it as much easier, you have your buddies and look out for each other and chill, women always seemed much more vicious and cliquish. And most female friends are scared of walking or being out alone, much, etc. But I the get the protected and being treated considerately part.

And you're welcome, of course.

>>9800304

How is someone telling you they are a cat any more absurd than a cat not telling you it's a cat?

>>9800514
Because a person is not a cat, and a cat cannot speak. Don't forget to fuck off, though.

it's rooted in not getting laid, you moron

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>>9800520

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>>9800304
is this the next civil rights movement?

>>9800304
Better hold my pipe tight.

>>9800198
This post is better than anything I expected to see in this thread.

>>9800298
>>9800342
eventually pluralism and relativism become a new form of universalism, the only meaningful way to assert oneself is to negate relativism and postmodernity for a new absolutism. This is why the 21st centuryis witnessing a great religious revival. Fascists, Jihadis and neocatholic reactionaries, are the true children of postmodernity.

>>9800625
this is the curious nature of /lit/

>>9800679
>This is why the 21st centuryis witnessing a great religious revival.

Actually, it is just because a lot of low education men can't find wives because a) Their jobs have been outsourced or made obsolete, or b) Their home countries have been bombed to rubble.

And meanwhile, they see women and "minorities" actually able to live lives completely oblivious of them.

>>9800506
Yes perhaps that's right. Being effeminate was humiliating. Particularly when you had to go to the locker room with other boys. I absolutely refused to take my clothes off in front of other boys. So I'd try and wait until they left or take them of really slowly. But a few of them picked up on it. And tried humiliating me by taking away my shirt so that my I felt like my breasts were exposed. I wasn't on HRT or anything. This was junior high. But it was so humiliating that it made me very hateful. I was a shy quiet sensitive sort of boy so I would never do anything about it. If I a guy hit me I don't honestly think I'd ever hit back. It's just incomprehensible to me. Being in that sort of relationship to a guy. I don't know how to process it. Everything felt wrong and out of place. I thought my dad was a brute because he was constantly pressuring me about my grades. On top of that, and worst of all, were the sexual feelings I was having. I was really attracted to straight boys. I liked boys that were tough and strong and even a bit mean. But I tried keeping my feelings repressed. Because I felt ashamed and weak and disgusting. Instead I just buried myself in books. Poetry, philosophy, science, etc. I read obsessively. I become obsessed with Adoft Hitler. I'd collect pictures of German guns, tanks, and other weaponry. I studied the campaign in Russia. The sheer intensity of his power and his utterly ruthless will in exercising it was what attracted me the most. It seemed to make up for a lot. Like you could make an incomprehensible and hateful world finally pay for it in a spectacularly ruthless display of carnage. Idk. I was a very arrogant and hateful boy. I own it. But eventually I just accepted my feelings told my parents. And I became a lot happier. And I don't have thoughts like that anymore. I don't know why it was so hard. It just was. And so yeah. My idea about living as a female is probably skewed. Most males probably weren't so isolated or lonely.

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>>9800720
gynocratic managerial neoliberalism is a paradoxical absolutist religion. The diversity hires and LGBT PoCWoCs are its priests, the hierarchs are still mostly white women and self flagellating liberal white men though. post fordian managerial classes maintain a fragile representation of 'unity' with no real substance. Factual power grows out of the barrel of a gun, as it always has. liberal managerialists and cultural marxists are paper tigers as trump's election shows. A couple thousand minutemen could drive them out for good. I think we are due for a postironic revival of the 90s right wing militia ethos. a christian reconstructionist neo rothbardian posse storms manhattan with pickup trucks and summarily executes NYT staff. beautiful.

>>9800736
you sound like gay elliot rodger. he also felt humiliated by being rejected by women and wanted revenge on the world and admired school shooters. at least you don't have to deal with women's bs, anon. go find yourself a nice chap and start a family.

I wonder if transgenderism is rooted in the neural network. There are siamese people and natural errors, so I wouldn't really rule it out. However, the 50 year old men who swap to a 5 year old girls are clearly psychologically damaged.

>>9800736
It sounds like a very dark time to have to go through, it makes sense why you would have a very different impression of being male and female. You come off as pretty happy and confident now, too, through your posts, good for you you had the strength to get through and make yourself happy. It's good getting a level-headed depiction of what it is like.

>>9800119

They're mentally ill, though, they think they can just hit the reset button on their life and select a lower difficulty, then they realize that even if they are in the top 10% of successful "transitioners," they are still uglier than a real woman, they will look like Steve dustin Hoffman in a wig by age 40 and their dick is gone forever, so the vast majority kill themselves. The fact that they are applauded and socially rewarded and egged on to tread this path by institutions, medical professionals, and society as a whole is one of the darkest dystopian acts of mass human sacrifice at the alter of Egotism in recorded history

>>9800720
>And meanwhile, they see women and "minorities" actually able to live lives completely oblivious of them.

your system makes most people miserable and only benefits a tiny incestuous clique of diverse neo yuppies. You think the people in the ghettos and meth holes of America care about your virtue signalling bullshit? no, they fucking hate your guts. when civilisation falls apart, they will side with whoever is better able to guarantee their safety and give them a sense of purpose.

>>9799493

what a stupid post

>>9800809
Ha thanks anon. I have a straight friend, and he just has sex with prosititutes. I guess most guys are sex starved while a small percentage get all the pussy. That sounds depressing as fuck.

>>9800780
>Perfect pastiche of the kind of loser male I was describing.

I'm sure that was your intention, right anon?

>>9800873
It is not my system. You live in the world as it is, the better you understand it, the better you are able to get along in it.

Now, you could try to improve your own personal circumstances, or you could try to to improve the resilience and coherence of your local community. Or you could sit around screaming at your screen that all those fucking liberals will hang once the world burns. Guess which one is the one least likely to improve your live to any whatsoever extent?

>>9800861
Yeah it's good for people to know the truth. Even if it's uncomfortable. That's why I like 4chan. You can just say things. And don't have to worry about public appearances.

>>9800879
the 'winners' in our society have the right identities and the right diversity training, it's funny how they see themselves as some sort of righteous meritocratic elite while simultaneously decrying meritocracy as an evil white male social construct. You are a walking paradox, you stand for nothing. yeah, I know, Rejecting establishment nihilism makes you a public enemy. revolutionary conservatism is a radical affirmation of Dasein. I refuse to resign myself to an empty existence of lgbtqia+ netflix shows, soylent, unemployment benefits and medicinal weed. I choose to shape my own destiny, nothing could be more threatening to managerialists like yourself, i know,the cattle should march straight to the slaughterhouse and not complain.

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>>9800901
>You live in the world as it is, the better you understand it, the better you are able to get along in it.

despite are your talk of 'transgression' you people are the ultimate teacher's pets, absolute conformists. The far right represents the logical conclusion, the completion and fulfillment of the radical critique of postmodernism, post-structuralism, queer theory and what not. the radical critique that refuses to be recuperated. I'm an ex-leftist you know.

McVeigh/Debord 2020
I am Nomad Warmachine

>>9800925
Again, though, projecting your impotence onto me doesn't actually help you any. I doubt it even makes you feel any better?

You are just sore that entitlements that you took for granted now mean nothing, and you know, that without them, you have, and are nothing. I mean, the things you see as feasible alternatives for you is netflix and unemployment? Christ, man, what did you do to fuck your life up so bad?

>>9800277
[citation needed]

>>9800967
the bastard post marxist dogma of muh equality of result has rendered capitalism absurd and destroyed the possibility of 'meritocracy'. Now, we just have 'entitlements' some 'entitlements' are bad, arbitrary social constructs, and others are justified due to vague women's studies platitudes. this is le french aids man knew as the society of control. the totalising spectacle of late capitalism. I say fuck it. fuck everything. I am pure negation. And there are millions who agree with me. Did I fuck up or was it the world who fucked up? we secretly yearn for catastrophe, because there is nothing left but catastrophe. bring on the apocalypse.

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>>9801019
>catastrophe

>>9801019
>Did I fuck up or was it the world who fucked up?

You still expect your momma to breastfeed you and change your diapers, or she's bad mommy, too, don't you?

God forbid you should have any kind of responsibility for your own existence.

>>9801019
i cringed so hard my body has visible waves

>>9801055
That's exactly what I am doing, taking responsibility for my own existence, through armed struggle if neccesary, rather than surrendering to the regime of experts and managers who know what's best for everyone.

>>9801061
GOOD. I wouldn't have it any other way. I probably find you as cringeworthy as you do me.

>>9799493

the only hot thing here is the hint of panties, but it's enough to make me want some sauce

>>9799493
>>9801109
I agree, it's even better if it's a trap

>>9801055
Now you are all about personal responsability and good ol' American enterprenurial values, what a surprise! It's your entitlements versus mine. There is no truth, only different systems of Knowledge-Power. So excuse me while I go ahead and bring back white Christian patriarchy. Middle Americans are oppressed colonial subjects taking a stand against libshit imperialism.

>>9800322
It's because that's what their fetish is.

>>9801260
You still seem to think there is some you vs me thing going on. You don't know anything about me, I don't care about you, I am just to taunting you for being an impotent loser, who, like all impotent losers, dreams of guns and greatness.

>>9800580
GARFIELD!

>>9801286
>You still seem to think there is some you vs me thing going on.

why wouldn't I? shouldn't I take tumblr and those nice jews in the media at face value?I didn't consider myself an evil white male oppressor at first, but i'm honestly beginning to enjoy the idea. there is more dignity to it than being a glorified professional victim.

ITT:
>blahblahblahblah barely related opinion
>I agree, that's true

NOT ITT:
discussion of the nature of soul, body/mind paradigm, platonic ideals
any rational premise

fuck you all

>>9801441
Don't do it
no, don't
don't do it

>>9801404
>I didn't consider myself an evil white male oppressor at first

And you're not. You're nothing. You're not a victim. you're nothing. You keep on grasping at straws that anyone should respect you, or care for you, or take you seriously, but you only show once again, that you are nothing. You are not a threat. You are nothing. You can scream and cry about it all you want, it changes... nothing.

>>9801441
>Plato
This is a Lacanian subject matter.
https://larvalsubjects.wordpress.com/2006/08/01/lacan-and-sexuation/

>>9801521
and yet you keep responding to him
hmm....

>>9799493

Are you saying OP pic has a dick?

>>9801771
>>9801286 >I am just taunting you for being an impotent loser

Because it is too easy, and true. Beneath all the pol and pseudo-Heidegger.

Do not reply to the ad hominem shill.

>>9801784

There's a gif of "her" masturbating.

>>9801854
Link

Wikipedia summation:
>Body dysmorphic disorder (BDD) is a mental disorder characterized by an obsessive preoccupation that some aspect of one's own appearance is severely flawed and warrants exceptional measures to hide or fix it.

NIH description:
>Body dysmorphic disorder (BDD) is a relatively common disorder that consists of a distressing or impairing preoccupation with imagined or slight defects in appearance. BDD is commonly considered to be an obsessivecompulsive spectrum disorder, based on similarities it has with obsessive-compulsive disorder. It is important to recognize and appropriately treat BDD, as this disorder is associated with marked impairment in psychosocial functioning, notably poor quality of life, and high suicidality rates.
>this disorder is associated with marked impairment in psychosocial functioning, notably poor quality of life, and high suicidality rates.

Does this sound like transgenderism to anybody else? When was the last time you talked to a "normal" tranny?

Transgenderism/gender dysphoria is a mental illness and not an issue with their physical body. Something is wrong with their brain which makes their mental state not match reality.

The solution should be to fix their mental state, not to start doing unnecessary and unhealthy surgery.

>>9802130
it's neurological. trans people's brains are intersex, somewhere between male and female

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The funny thing with this is a lot of trannies, while totally insecure in their own body image, are politically extremely dogmatic and self-assured. Total idealists. So yeah, you may be onto something.

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>>9800461
>I don't think this is a way to build a sustainable society.

Not a human one, certainly. But that was never the point.

>>9802237
I love that xi has no argument against scientific fact and xir answer is to just scream and make stupid faces. Riveting stuff.

>>9802140
Your brain can't be "intersex" you moron. Your brain is not a gendered organ. Transgender neurological disorders are caused by either (infrequent) physiological deformities or (more commonly) psychological factors, both of which contribute to hormonal imbalances and deviating thought patterns.
Not all cases progress to the point of the individual desiring treatment, and those that do usually have several options before taking the big leap into sex-change surgeries and hormone treatments. Most people with this disorder are not transexual, they do not actually transition. The number has been increasing for the last several years, due largely to the political atmosphere of dogmatically attacking those who criticize transexuality by calling it what it is - a neurological disorder.

>>9800255
>Do you seriously believe this? Do you seriously think that people TEACH boys to want to stick their peepees in girls
unironically yes

>>9800429
Everything is poltical

>>9802299
Do you not understand that what you're saying is directly contradictory to every human experience?

>>9800298
>animals have no concept of Gender
>dogs and other pack animals in the wild naturally form into a gendered hierarchy and family structure
>insects experience sexual dimorphism to the point that different genders can appear to be separate species
>LMAO THERES NO SUCH THING AS GENDER IN ANIMALS
Off yourself m8

>>9802278
>xir
>xe
This shit actually upsets me. Why can't trans people just choose a more elegant pronoun like "eir" or "ey" instead of the most annoying shit possible?

>>9802330
That's kind of a secondary annoyance

>>9799702
not him but the cathar perfect didn't recognise gender. that women became perfect was another reason they had to be thrown off cliffs. i can't remember if either sex or any of them went the whole full heaven's gate route of castration but they shaved their heads and dressed unisex etc. they're deeply influenced by gnosticism but other similar groups like the bogomils have similar attitudes to the flesh.

the orthodox russian spin off the skoptsy on the other hand made people perfect by taking off all of their genitals and secondary sex organs or most of them. so tits and dicks and everything burnt/cut off is best for them, because they believe, again, the material world is a veil of evil.

it makes a lot of sense if you think about it, since gnosticism makes a split between the material imperfect world and the perfect spiritual world that they'd be the cutters of the christian faith.

>>9802309
>My experience:
I am born into middle class household. My father and mother are married. Three years later my younger sister is born. She is female and different from me. I see this in the bathtub. As I grow older and my ability to discern the particularities of my enviroment increases, I learn that my mother makes more money than my father, but my father still maintains an aura of dominance. His larger size complements my mother's smaller stature. They fit fairly well into images of the hetrosexual couples in the Disney films I grow up watching. As I reach maturity, I go to Catholic school. In Catholic school I am taught that the male body is designed to GIVE and the female body is designed to RECIEVE. This makes sense to me. I am taught that during first sexual intercourse, a hormone is released in the female that solidifies and increases the bond she feels for her partner. These concepts are rigidly stuck to me, and I find it extraordinarily difficult to understand sexual relationships between humans in any other way.

>A homosexual experience:
I am born into a working class household. My father and mother are distant towars eachother, and I in turn grow up with a suspicious stance towards them. They are largely a-political and irreligious. My favourite TV shows are thunder cats and he-man. During childhood, I have frequent sleepovers with my friend, Alan, and we explore eachothers' bodies. Soon I reach maturity and I am gifted a lap top. On this lap top I discover web sites such as e621, DeviantArt, and various ERP forums. I develop an addiction to these sites, and the relationships expressed and portrayed in this online world eventually seem normal to me, as I am an introverted child and spend little time interacting with other people. These concepts are rigidly stuck to me, and I find it extraordinarily difficult to understand sexual relationships between humans in any other way.

>>9802366
Good job, you just pulled a random strawman out of your ass with no actual psychological or neurological evidence to back it up. You must be one of those proud LibArts majors changing the world I hear so much about.

>>9802374
So why do you think people are gay? Something in the brain that's different from regular folk?

>>9802366
is this a share thread? awesome.
>My experience
>be born privileged noble and intelligent
>find out all the jiggly bits are fun when you're off your tits on drugs in catholic school
>nobody faults you for stealing fruit either because you're young and they've read augustine too
>ever thankful for being sent to a good order not one of the one designed to funnel middle class drones back to the suburbs

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>>9802384
>find out all the jiggly bits are fun when you're off your tits on drugs in catholic school
well shit we can't all be chad

>>9802393
grace of god brother

>>9802382
Your base claim would seem to indicate that without external instruction everyone would end up asexual. That's why people are telling you that you sound retarded.

Unlike you, I don't claim to be a psychologist or neurologist. The evidence in those fields suggest that homosexuality/bisexuality are just natural deviations from standard mating functions in the hormone responses of the brain. These often stem from psychological factors, but we also see it happening in the psychologically "normal" to a degree that defies the easy answer of it being a solely psychological phenomena.

>>9802397
>without external instruction
A human child cannot survive without someone looking after it. There's always going to be a group that coerces you or influences your behaviour

What I believe from anecdotal evidence which I've gathered over the years from knowing homosexual people is that there is a inherent sex drive, and that the culture you grow up in shapes that sex drive.


>"U.S. Army medic completing a year-long tour in a rural area of Kandahar province. She and her male colleagues were approached by a local gentleman seeking advice on how his wife could become pregnant. When it was explained to him what was necessary, he reacted with disgust and asked “How could one feel desire to be with a woman, who God has made unclean, when one could be with a man, who is clean? Surely this must be wrong.”

https://info.publicintelligence.net/HTT-PashtunSexuality.pdf

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-south-asia-11217772

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi

>>9802414
>using an example of a retarded muslim goatfucker whose been drilled full of fundamentalist Islam to disprove that people are capable of figuring out how to fuck on their own
How do you think animals that don't have language manage to procreate you absolute goddamn mongoloid.

>>9800367
>leftist social engineering

This is a communist board, go back to /r/TheDonald

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>>9802420
>How do you think animals that don't have language manage to procreate
A male chimp has hormones rushing through his body, he sees something he is programmed to fuck and goes for it.

A human has hormones rushing through their body, they see another human and go for it. (Of course there are numerous rituals, laws and courtship practices that the human has learned over the years - can't go around raping women now)

Sometimes, both these primates will be short of females, and after being in close proximity of males for an extended period of time, they will release themselves using eachother if it is consensual and socially permissable.

>figuring out how to fuck on their own
You're telling me you had a good sit down one day and drafted up a 5 point plan on what your sexuality will be and what you'll masturbate to this evening? I don't know about you, but I follow whatever enviromental circumstance happens to excite my dick.

>>9802453
I also might as well mention that chimpanzees themselves have social heirachies that attempt to regulate sex (just like humans lol) although they aren't expressed to eachother using the spoken word, obviously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YQrLPW5DdY

>>9799724
Topkek

>>9800246
>Trans people are not human. The guy who invented the distinction between "sex" and "gender" was a suicidal homosexual pedophile.

seems pretty much human to me.

>>9802414
the distinction between 'nature' and 'socially constructed reality' is itself a social construct.

>>9801859

Sorry I'm looking for it myself. I know I've seen it on /b/ or /gif/ but I neglected to save it

>>9802499
True. But I think we can use "socially contructed reality" as a pragmatic distinction if we define it as relating to a coercion of animal behaviour derrived by animals of the same species.

A tree will produce acorns regardless of the presence of other trees. Fish will reproduce as they always have.

However a male chimpanzee who is constantly warded off femlales by the resident alpha male might shag one of the males to release stress.

>>9799493
Anyone got this thot's name? I know a while back some anon had her tumblr and she'd post a shitton of nudes. I feel like jerking off to her again but I can't remember her name or URL

>>9801784
She didn't but she had a friend who was a girlyboi

>>9802299
100% serious here: how?!

>>9802522
an animal doesn't exist as an abstraction in a vacuum, but as part of its own species, and part of its own environment. Acorns and trees can only be understood as different stages in a process of universal organic development. Knowledge cannot be separated from the process. the secular ideal of alienated abstract Man is a product of Capital and the enlightenment.

>>9802629
Uh okay, but if we're trying to pragmatically ascertain why there are homosexuals, I would say it's due to social pressure or a certain childhood experiences during sexual development.

Honestly I'm not sure what you're trying to say to me here. Maybe I'm too spooked on this "ideal of an alienated abstract man"

>>9802566
Pls im erect and ready to blow

>>9802296
This is just the same garbage pseudoscience "civilized" hicks use to send their gay sons to boot camp or prayer intervention. So they can kill themselves instead of going to college and becoming normal, successful people some place that doesn't have it's collective head a foot up it's evangelical ass. And so shaming their redneck cousins, who would rather have seen them dead into damnation and hellfire.

The DSM-5 classification, which is authoritative in the US, is gender dysphoria, which is the actual felt distress that those people feel from their actual physical bodies. And the treatment is directed at curing that distress, like any other illness. Notice here, that the illness is the felt distress of the patient.

>>9799514
It's whether you have a dick or a cunt. Now go and solve some real problems.

>>9799493
> tfw people are attempting to have an intellectual discussion but all theyre really doing is equating the works of plato or descartes with mental illness

>>9802647
It's too funny that people are actually arguing about this on /lit/ of all places. The essence of the whole 20th century was the revelation, that, if you don't physically restrain them, or threaten them with real or imagined pain, there is, quite literally, nothing human beings will not be enthralled with and try to fuck. Nothing. If you can think of it someone tried to fuck it. And then you call these people sick, but the truth is they are not. Because it is so universal, that it is the norm. The reason people are scared of homosexuality is that it was drilled into you through school, that being a faggot would get you beat up. Nevermind fucking plushies, or ponies, whatever.

Parts of this board consists mainly of people priding themselves in only getting off to comic book characters, or words on a page, and the rest do it to pixels on a screen, too.

The impulse to procreate is physical, biological, and strong that it will find release, or make you hurt yourself. The rest is whatever the fuck you chose to do with it.

You were all supposed to have read books.

>>9803474
Yeah sure I agree with you, but:

>whatever the fuck you choose
>free will
>existing

>>9803455
>implying dualism isn't retarded

>>9800429
Six corporations own the news in USA.

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>>9803532
>not being a compatibilist

>>9803474
>fetishes are the norm
>heterosexuality is socially constructed
I think you've spent a bit too much time on the internet, champ. Also,
>/lit/ of all places
Get fucked, traitor.

>>9803818
>I think you've spent a bit too much time on the internet

Come now. As I said, it has nothing to do with the internet, though that has made it obvious to every illiterate dimwit. It is the leitmotif of 20th century fiction, from the Decadents and Freud on. In psychiatry, the 20th century has been the normalization of every fetish that doesn't victimize another.

Which you would know if you had read shit instead of being some 9/10ths US freshmen pseuds.

Which does exactly make it ironic that this drivel thread is on /lit/.

Champ.

>>9799493
>Is transgenderism ultimately rooted in platonic metaphysics?
Why? This is too generic of a question.

>The idea of having a 'female' mind and ideal form while in a male body then proceeding to have the body transformed by hormones and surgery until it resembles that of a woman just stinks of him.
It's not an idea, it's a need. It's not that trans people would really like to transition, it's that they will kill themselves if they don't.

Before pondering about transgenderism, you might as well examine the point of view of trans people themselves.

>>9800326
>making "happiness" the aim of one's life

Good luck with that.

>>9800342
>it's the safest way to deal with the external world.

So you're afraid of pissing people off essentially? Remember, being harmless isn't the same as being virtuous, plus, it sounds like you want to avoid any line of inquiry so as to make yourself more palatable in the eyes of the world. Kind of pathetic desu

>>9803474
>>9803976
so leftists think a) heterosexuality is a social construct b)social constructs are always bad oppressive and white c) hence, total degeneracy must become a normative standard and imposed on the population for their own good, whether they want it or not.

>>9804268
being trad is an act of resistance against marxist social engineering. it's funny how gay queers pretend their state backed politically correct sexual lifestyle is still edgy in the year of our lord 2017

>>9799514
You need to find the archetype of male and female

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>>9804268
homosexualism is a politically correct leftist pagan religion based on the teachings of Marcuse, Butler, Foucault, and Reich. It has dethroned christianity as the official religion of the west.

>>9799740
>no trap conducts a detailed phenomenology of their embodiment before deciding to transition.

But isn't that the job of the unconscious? No one, aside from a certain type of intellectual, is going to attempt a conscientious diagnostic on their psyche.

>>9804317
why? what do you mean?

>>9803433
The DSM-5 in the US also correlates Bipolar disorder and chronic depression. It's shit son.

You also don't seem to understand the difference in medical terminology between an illness and a disorder. Medically speaking, a disorder is any condition which does not cause bodily injury but disrupts everyday living. So, yes, gender dysphoria and other psychological conditions that contribute to a feeling of "being in the wrong body" are MENTAL DISORDERS. Nothing is actually wrong with the person medically, they're just experiencing disruptive thought patterns and sometimes non-destructive hormonal changes.

You also seem to not understand that transgender individuals who do successfully transition still have ridiculously high rates of suicide, depression, self-harm, etc. If the disorder they experience were solely caused by some mythical disconnect between the brain and body, and not external psychological conditions, then we would expect to see those numbers shore up. But they don't, which tells us that A: transitioning is not a successful treatment in the majority of gender dysphoria and etc. cases, and B: individuals experiencing these disorders need to be given serious psychological evaluations before, and quite often instead of, any extreme medical procedures which will quite likely increase their risk of self-harm, suicide, and psychological instability.

For fuck's sake there are tons of testimony of these exact sentiments by successfully transitioned, psychologically stable transexuals, who would be the first to tell people that this is not a game, that its not an easy solution to some other extreme problem. On the other hand, their experiences are drowned out by mongoloid libtards pushing sex changes and all kinds of other shit on people, ignorant of the dangers or even the actual benefits. For you to be calling the actual medical facts "pseudoscience" is just retarded.

>>9804355
>homosexuality is...
*progressivism is
You can totally join the Church of Social Justice as a cis white male/WASP. You're just either batshit insane or a willing cuckold

>>9803433
>DSM
Yep. Because medical consensus isn't determined by ideology. That's why we still give hysterectomies and lobotomies to women who don't like their husbands.

>>9804464
I think it's sexuality that prompts one to transition. I wanted straight men more than anything in the world. I don't know why or how. I just know that. I might, looking back, consider oddities in my behavior or in my cognition. For example, I genuinely believed I was straight because I like seeing men and women have sex. That's what I like, but I'm exclusively attracted to men. I don't know why I believed that. That's part of what prompts many traps (I think) to declare that they are heterosexual females on the inside. Another oddity (and please excuse me for this but I think it's relevant) was when the first guy I ever slept with made me swallow his cum. I remember being so scared. I was panicking. I thought he got me pregnant. But when I looked it up on the Internet I learned that you can't get pregnant by swallowing. I was so relived that I started crying. I thought I was going to have to tell me parents and that they were going to be so upset. It honestly never occurred to me that I can't get pregnant because I'm male. So you are probably right when you say this is mostly resolved in the unconscious. Consciously all I knew was being male is too hard, and I wanted straight men. Lots of people think it's absurd to declare you're a straight female on the inside. But do you personally think it's strange? I'm willing to agree with the world and say I'm homosexual. There isn't anything wrong with that. But I want to be able to talk about my experiences honestly so that we can advance our understanding of the human mind, and all the tricks it sometimes plays on us....

>>9804814
I honestly believe that the sexual dysphoria stems from an action by the unconscious. The funny thing is is that my sexuality seems to be rather analogous to yours; in addition to this, I also have dreams of myself often taking a female form. Have you ever had dreams of a similar nature?

Also:
>I thought he got me pregnant
I'm sorry, but were you raised in middle America or something?

>>9804862
Sometimes I dream of myself as female other times as male.

But lol I was raised in the Western part of the US yes. Why do I sound countrified hahaha?

>>9799493
I literally spent my entire life studying philosophy to try and understand my feelings on this subject. Originally went Stoic to just try and deal and ignore things. Eventually moved over to Plato for a long time, metaphysics having obvious appeal. A little bit of Kant. Obviously went through Descartes, even some Dostoevsky. Dabbled in Hegel and Heidegger. My first real breakthrough, I felt, was once I finally started understanding Nietzsche as a way past Cartesian doubt, interspersed with some Wittgenstein and Derrida. Kierkegaard also felt very applicable, especially with ultimately having to take a "leap of faith" of sorts when I transitioned.

I feel I could make a good argument of justification for myself, but I'm highly against most modern applications of Critical Theory: especially Feminist/Queer/Gender Theory. Having gone through as much philosophy as I have, I only see the contemporaneous thinking as lacking in hindsight and actual rigor, and basically relegating my existence and struggle to word games played by the upper-middle class white hegemons of academic thought. Especially given the awful history with what was basically an attempted genocide of trans people committed by feminists with regards to health care laws in the US that no one cares about. Can't help but see the teleological end goal as being similar, essentially hand-waving away my existence as a mode of "presentation" rather than any kind of being.

Ultimately, there is no irrefutable proof of my Self as being the way I believe and present and am accepted as (obviously there isn't for anyone), but since I'm feeling too lazy to actually go through all my thinking on the matter I'll just say being trans is Hegelian Synthesis and call it a day.

>>9804894
It's just a stereotype that those parts of the country have shitty sex ed.

>>9804920
all those words and no substance at all

>>9803976
you need to read PITRIM SOROKIN

>>9804814
this is exactly what i've noticed from all the trans people i've come across, the entire thing is just a forced feminization/sissy fetish taken to the extreme

>>9804993
This. I'm homosexual myself and on occasion I do have those fantasies, but I would personally never transition. I realize that these desires probably stem from societal influences unconsciously, and transitioning would merely destroy my body.

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>>9804979
Yeah, like I said, there's no ultimate proof. I'm not going to be able to say anything to prove to someone who doesn't think I exist that I exist. I would say, modern scientists seem to be pointing towards being trans as having a biological reason.

If you think science is being pushed by an agenda, then we'd have to wonder on how exactly you choose to accept one scientific fact over another. If you're already moving towards ad hoc reasoning, you're already admitting that you have no reason to believe what you believe aside from personal feelings on the matter.

If you want to go into metaphysics of Self, there's no reason to necessitate that hard boundaries exist between the sexes in terms of mind/body duality. Especially not when most metaphysics was developed during the period when humans were considered a single sex with two (or more) genders; women were seen as humans where the penis hadn't fallen out of the body during gestation. A woman was just a failed man. My reasoning for bringing this up is just to point out that ideas on delineation between men and women has differed radically throughout history.

Anyways, there's no reason for transition to not be sensible on a metaphysical level. If we place the mind in a place of superiority over the body, then someone who mentally believes themselves to be more female than male--given you allow for men and women to be different--transitioning to female is, in a sense, "making themselves in their own image". Aside from clinging to a certain mode of compartmentalization, I see no reason to say that the movement of the body to matching the mind is wrong on the part of someone who is trans, but allowable for someone who wishes to reach peak physical conditioning (as Stoics would advocate for, and many Greek philosophers in general, as a body in good condition is movement closer towards The Good). Personally, I am better off than ever when it comes to my emotional and physical well-being, and therefore am approaching The Good for myself, just with a personalized ideal.

Arguments that "but they're almost all insane/fetishists/etc" aren't philosophical arguments as to the validity of being trans in itself. Like I said, I'm not a fan of Critical Gender Theory and the like because it pushes mentally unstable people with psychoses towards "being trans" as an answer to their problems of identity. My existence in itself is proof enough for myself of the validity of being trans as an idea; the idiocy of others shouldn't have any bearing on that on philosophical terms, obviously. That would be like saying all Christians are bad people because Pseudo-Catholics and Bible Belt Fundamentalists exist.

I'm not a "sissy fetishist", so that's literally all it takes to hand wave away that argument. It's not even an argument, but just an ad hoc ad hom. Yes, hons and trenders are disgusting, but that has nothing to do with actual trans people.

>>9805011
Well the thing is life as a male was very hard. I'm a lot happier now. I don't know if I'd call it a fetish. Perhaps it is. I mean straight men like females. So you have to feminize if you want them. And I wanted them really really bad. So I was going to do what it took. Besides I look very nice as a female and pass well so why not? Life is ok as long as you be honest with people and real, most of the time educated adults don't mind. Otherwise it's not too hard to be in stealth provided you are not close to those people.

I want to fuck (s)he

>>9805042
>Believing in selfhood
>falling for the identity meme
read Hume faget

>>9800327
This shit, I don't get why fuckers have to push for their kinks at pride parades. I have nothing against homosexuals, i just don't understand why some folks feel the need to put their fetishes out there.

>>9805042
read the thread, >>9800198
already demolished the "mental gender mismatch" line of thought

that said, my remark was about your writing style more than anything -- you're just rambling about yourself

>>9805119
I did read Hume. Hume is for fedoras. Is-Ought is cool and everything, but I just don't find him that interesting. Useful, but nothing to base your personal ideology off of.

>>9804706
>bipolar disorder has no correlation with chronic depression
Wow you're like a full on retard aintcha

>>9804735
>That's why we still give hysterectomies and lobotomies to women who don't like their husbands.

Where do you see this happening?

>>9799493

ok you know what, I want to see this person naked RIGHT NOW. I don't give a fuck if it's a dick or cunt under those blue panties. I want them off. Fix it, NOW!

>>9803976
>psychiatry
>normalising fetishes
Kek, yeah nah, how about TREATING fetishism. Hell, it wasn't long ago that psychiatry was actively trying to CURE homosexuality, and it only stopped because SJWs of the day threw a hissy fit about it. Freud knew that sexual fetishes were deviations caused by avoidable and undesirable sociosexial events during early childhood, and that he wanted to help people FIX THEM. Even now the DSM5 lists gender disphoria as a mental illness, even if it's not politically allowed to act on it.

You're talking out your ass.

>>9805127
In a thread about the validity of being trans, it's not that wild to talk from experience. If something comes down to phenomenology, why wouldn't my Self come up?

And no, that's not "demolishing" anything. As much as I don't want to sound like this kind of person, "biological sex is biological sex" is not the end-all be-all of the human experience. I don't see why anyone with any philosophical knowledge would insist on biology as the point at which something is "actual" or "real". There's a reason why pure materialism has led us down to the infinite genders well. And if you're going to move beyond pure materialism, then the only way to block the existence of trans people is via ad hoc logic with no actual support. You can't make assertions out of nowhere, and if you're operating via "pragmatism" then you're too lazy to do any actual argumentation.

If you're going to play the chromosomes game, I'd ask what the point would be if you can't even enforce your personal interpretation in any way. Given that trans people who pass exist, If they presented themselves as female and you had no thought on it being otherwise, then I'm what way are they not female? If they see themselves as female, the law does, and you do, but you forgot to ask the opinion of the chromosomes, what exactly is the difference between them and a woman? Aside from essentializing things even further into esoteric arguments of biology, forgoing the social, phenomenological, ontological, etc aspects of human being.

As well, simply stating "trans people say they feel certain feelings but I don't think those feelings are valid so they don't matter" is myopic.

If metaphysical, or just any kind of philosophical discussion, arises here that would be neat, but so far it seems like nothing more than ad hoc Empiricism. Yes, if you formulate the rules of the game so you win, you win. To even get to the point of invalidating trans people you have to somehow already bridge a bunch of epistemological and ontological gaps that exist. You can't just skate past the problem of how we know what we know, the decoherence of language, etc.

>>9804706
The DSM 5 doesn't "correlate" anything. Stick to what you know.

>>9805119

>'self' is merely a bundle of sensations
>okay
>but wait, didn't you just demonstrate that logical relationships are insuperably distinct from empirical relations, that the a posteriori cannot be proven a priori?
>then what is holding these sensations, i.e. these empirical 'facts' together, if not this identity, i.e. this logical relationship? Especially over time?

I honestly truly 100% believe that trans people are just people who hate themselves and their lives so much
They don't want to go somewhere far away initially because its hard and scary and even then you can quickly realize that society doesn't change so much no matter how far you go
So they just take hormone pills instead in order to become, what they perceive at least as, an entirely different person
This is why they become so protective of their "new" identity

Its not about sexuality or "feeling" more like a man or woman in any regard
Its much simpler and easier to just be homosexual in many places and people who think they completely and instinctually understand what its like to be something they've never been before are obviously just lying to themselves

These people are just looking for an escape plain and simple
People who are against binary gender are the same way
All of them are just looking for more methods of escaping wherever they can find them
Like most things I believe transgenderism is not an issue with the individual human mind but an issue with human society
There is something about the current state of our society that makes it inhospitable to these people so much that these measures become viable and even necessary

>>9799775
Jesus has no one had a thought separate from Freud for like 100 years?

>>9805517
He is the plato of psychology, anon.

>>9799493
no, it's rooted in neurology.
it's not philosophical or ideological, it's entirely a physical thing.

>>9800132
This reads like something translated from a Goebbels diary.

>>9800132
I have never met a transperson that dismisses gender as a social construct outright.

>>9799493
It’s rooted in mental illness. Kill yourself.

>>9799775
The concept of transgenderism shouldn't be purely discussed on a purely ethical and moral, i.e. philosophical perspective. rather we should inspect it from a psychological, sociological and biological standpoint.

As you said, it is not only the discomfort to be in one's own body but also an issue of the perverted, damaged libido by some kind of developmental issue.
Making an assumption a priori on this topic I would suppose it is caused by some kind of ongoing confusion similar amnesia which then causes a feeling of disembodiment, presumably in the subjects early childhood, something essential in the child's development is missing - likely due to some kind of trauma - what else should it be? :)

Is it a missing developmental figure, a missing ethic?

This unconscious confusion then goes by mostly unnoticed in the later development. In the teenage phase of the child's development, this confusion finally manifests in kinds of social anxiety or demarcation from the group. The child starts to discover more about itself, primarily that in certain aspects it is not like the others. This results in a problem the Ich cannot solve. And the Ich hates unsolved problems. This then goes by the standard procedure of isolation.

These vague emotions, this unsolved problem now manifest with ongoing time into a clear vision of envy towards the other gender, this envy is at first without a clear vision or projection on itself - at this point, it doesn't know what it desires.

Now finally philosophy starts to play a role in our whole game of this and that confusion.
It discovers what it thinks it is (the opposite gender) and substantiates its egotistical identification with numerous philosophical principles.
Especially these harden its confusion about itself.

A common saying about liars and self-deceptions talks about liars believing their own lies after telling them often enough, this is most likely similar to our transgenderism problem.

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>>9799740
>She is a feminist and says that body recognition and ownership (the felt sense of inhabiting the proper body) is socially constructed.
What isn’t a fucking social construction to you lunatics? This is beyond, beyond ridiculous. It’s a social construction to be the sex that you are? What? Fuck off with this society-destroying, Marxist plague.

>>9805813

Bad post.

>>9800103
Exactly, they are both absurd. It is just "woman" or "man," as determined by pussy or cock.

>>9805815
You have to read the book. Assuming a Body by Gayle Salamon. She does not argue that the material form is socially constructed but that gender identity is, that is the felt absence of a cross sex bodily morphology. Anyway she is a feminist. She isn't transgender herself and I don't necessarily agree with her. Body perception btw is no doubt biological. And some mental disorders entail a compromised body scheme. Including exaggerated proportions and the like. I can't remember the name. It's in Latin. But I agree transgender people ought to be honest and say that they LIVE as women rather than they actually ARE women. It's isn't mentally sane to do otherwise. And hormones ought to be the last option. We need to work toward a society where everyone can feel at home. This is a mental disorder and some people do need to transition but their number is very small.

>>9799493
You need to reread Plato.

If you think that "stinks of him" you didn't understand his views at all.

Every horrible thing is rooted in Platonism.

>>9799527
Why is he scratching his chest during a photo? Especially when photos were so hard to take back then

>The idea of having a 'female' mind and ideal form while in a male body then proceeding to have the body transformed by hormones and surgery until it resembles that of a woman just stinks of him.
I don't think you've actually read any Plato, actually.

>>9806181
>>9806200

Why don't you guys explain what you mean?

>>9799776
>well-established
Establishment is meaningless
>professionals
Professional idiots, maybe

>>9805221
The post I referred you to distinguishes between sex and gender (which you yourself manage to conflate in this post) and then argues that, despite the distinction, both are nevertheless non-psychological. You spent this whole overwrought post arguing against the view that biological sex is the end of the story on gender, which is a view the post referred to explicitly rejects. He even accepts that a biological male who passes as a woman is in fact a woman (where "woman" is considered a social gender category). It seems you're as incapable of reading as you are incapable of presenting your thoughts in a coherent, concise, and pointed manner.

>>9804355

I hate Trudeau so goddamn much. That flag is not his to desecrate.

>>9805785
They identify as feminist, though. Feminism dismisses gender as a social construct.

>>9806476

The post you refer to actually considers 'male' and 'female' brain structure a secondary sex characteristic, while denying that this can explain body dysmorphia or be presented as evidence of a biological condition of 'transness'.

You're the dummy wth reading comprehension issues here.

>>9806094
>You have to read the book.
I'm not going to subject myself to puerile Marxist crap just so I can set my scanner to some idiot's bizarro Relativist non-logic.
If you can't explain your point in the common language, with standard definitions, without generating syntactic oxymorons then your argument is just shit that's been rebranded with words that make more surface-level sense for easier marketing.

>>9806784

Stupid and transparent.

>>9806792
Not an argument. Why should one subject themselves to the wild goose chase of decoding jargon developed by de-contextualists so that they can fight a reconstruction of their argument? It serves no purpose other than providing one party ample grounds to twist their words, backpedal, or proclaim that the other side hasn't done the homework prescribed to them. Its obscurantism at its finest.

Imagine saying 'the sky is blue' and being told that you need to read some other text to understand blueness before you can argue if the sky is blue. Its fucking nonsense.

>>9806768
It denies neither of those things. You're conflating "transness" with "gender".

>>9806815
>>9806825

Getting worse. And worse, boring.

>>9806825
>>9800198

>If brains can be "masculine" or "feminine" (read: more structurally similar to that of the average male/female) then this is a secondary sexual characteristic that, like the others, is not essential to biological maleness or femaleness, and trans people -- if their claims to a "male brain" or a "female brain" are accurate (I suspect this is just a way to make "I'm a woman inside" sound epistemologically respectable) -- are in fact just evidence of this, given their biological sex. And they cannot attain to social femininity or masculinity merely by claiming it, but must be taken up in the social milieu as the gender associated with the other sex (i.e., they must "pass").

Learn. To. Read. You. Dumb. Nigger.

>>9806848
fuck off already then -- your entire psyche is one giant defense mechanism

>>9806854


lol i'm not even that fag, you just irritate me

>>9806852
Show me where it says that sex-divergent neurology can't explain body dysmorphia, and where it says that such a neurology can't explain "transness". Implicit in this post seems to be the idea that gender dysphoria is psychological but gender itself is not.

>>9806630
>They identify as feminist, though
I'm trans, I don't identify as feminist, neither does pretty much anyone in my circle of contacts.
trans =! sjw

>>9806859

Jesus Christ, you're tiresome. That poster is locating the 'issue' of gender and, by extension, dysphoria, at a phenomenological level. Simple appeals to biology or physiology or psychology by either trans advocates or their opponents are insufficient, as they fail to properly identify the real locus of contention, which is at the ****intersection**** of ****personal experience**** and the social ****milieu****

>>9800298
Nice one, Baudrillard

>>9806871
>gender and, by extension, dysphoria
not how it works -- the existence of body dysmorphia does not imply that the body is psychological

>>9806852
>>9806859
maybe I should add that I'm the one who wrote >>9800198 in the first place, so I think I have a bit more of an authoritative position on what I meant

>>9806871
what does "personal experience" have to do with gender at all? at best personal experience seems secondary, or epiphenomenal with respect to gender

>>9806868
Feminist =! sjw

>>9806883

Well shit, you're way stupider than I thought. Oh well.

>>9806890
why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

>>9806886
That's a lie.

>>9806886
I find that most people that are egalitarian but not sjw don't really define themselves as feminist, as it is an inherently lopsided term.

>>9806896

I know I'm a moron, faggot, I'm just disappointed in you.

>>9799493
no it's mental illness

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>>9799493
Was Jung right? Is this transtrenderism thing just an inability to accept their anima or animus in a healthy manner?

>>9804625
Something related to Jung and mythology

>>9805749
i'm an unironic natsoc, so that is a huge compliment for me. made my day, anon

>>9806973
ding ding ding
A winrar is you

>>9805598
No, Jung is. Freud was a hack.
Not even defending Jung, but his thoughts did spawn most of the discussions that developed into modern psychology.

>>9806886
Feminist in the modern term = intersectional feminist = sjws. sjw is just a pejorative term for intersectional activists that some such activists co-opted as a flag for themselves.

>>9806196
It's a masonic gesture.

>>9808332
Sjw refers to authoritarians. Invasive/attacking/warring social justice

>>9799493
That's a real girl though.

>>9808913
So are transwomen

>>9808919
I'll call trans people what they want to be called but you won't ever be able to convince me a transwomen is in the same category or a "real" girl.

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>>9808919

Look, I like traps as much as the next man but they're not actually women.

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>>9808325
This has got to be b8...

>>9809311

How's about this: everyone should be allowed to have guns, but no one should be allowed in the military.

>>9809311
Denying guns to mentally ill is prejudiced, desu.

>>9809311
That's not even hypocrisy since trans aren't considered mentally ill

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>>9809755
>Wanting your dick cut into a vagina that you have to use a dildo on daily to not close up not a mental illness

How would the Greeks approach this dilemma?

>>9809834
Got that off-kilter Homer Simpson stare...

>>9799740
They transition because they're failures as men. If they had drive or any kind of intestinal fortitude then they'd man up.

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>>9809894
chicks with dicks were actually a recurring motif in ancient greek art

>>9800132
that's because the so called 'lgbt community' doesn't want equality, they want cultural marxism! lgbt leaders readily admit theirs is a political goal, to subvert society and destroy the family.

>>9799493
ITT: Equivocation fallacy.

>>9809926
I know you're not going to like this answer, and I'm not ashamed to admit it, but I like being sexually dominated by masculine men. I can't help my sexual feelings. I really can't. If I could I would.

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>shitpost about some dead greek guy, some /pol/ tier issue and include an ambiguously penised wo/man
>270 replies

OP here, thanks guys, I've solved this board. Onto the next one.

>>9810883
>here for the yous
Fuck off then.