No, I'm not going to read the KJV Bible

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>>9754249
>Reals > feels
>only reading non-fiction

why do you care so much

>>9754309
Why should I care? Why should I care whether a madman wields a chainsaw nearby me or my kin? Why should I care whether the Catholic Church owns a large fraction of the world's real estate? Why should I care if the sword of Islam is bound to fall down, and unto, the neck of European Civilisation? Heh, I guess you thought I'd just sit around and wait for you all to kill us.

>>9754278
>>9754284
I wait for arguments yet you evoke the fedora - a stale meme. Try again.

>>9754249
>The Iliad is literally cultural appropriation of mythos from other cultures, told in a shitty fashion and propped up as "real".
You don't read myth in order to understand actual history

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>>9754314
you're just as religious as they are if you care about anything other than security and getting your penis touched.

>>9754322
>Hits bong
Woah dude we're all religious

>>9754319
what precursor is there for the iliad? what tradition did homer appropriate?

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>>9754249
>the building block of all western civilization and culture for the past 2 thousand years
>just a story
The Kingdom of Heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it.
t. Mattew 11;12

>>9754316
>implying Reals > feels is an argument

>>9754319
you can. I actually think it's devastating how little of oral tradition we've written down upon making contact with remote cultures. I remember talking to a historian from tanzania who said a lot of fanciful shit about a massive bantu slave revolt against arabs that I've never heard anything about, and it made me depressed that there isn't much in the way of records of legends to cross reference and to pull out some history from.

>>9754249
Wrong on all accounts. Reality doesn't exist.
>>9754314
WE WUZ VIKANGZ N SHIEEEEEET
>>9754325
Are you fucking serious? Do you think fucking Hesiod was original, too? Do you think mythology began out of the blue? Holy fucking shit no wonder you don't understand scripture.

>>9754328
LITERALLY where is your argument at all? You think meme arrows make you look smart? I have a Masters in Computer Science and had electives in the humanities, kid, what about you? I blasted everyone else in the humanities classes out of the water, with my superior intellect, what about you. I told them and showed them how religion was degenerative, autocratic and the vilest of mankind's creations, what about you? Can you convince anyone of anything?

>>9754249
the bible is more real than you. you will die and be forgotten within a generation, if that, but the bible has lasting presence.

>>9754332
>Are you fucking serious? Do you think fucking Hesiod was original, too? Do you think mythology began out of the blue? Holy fucking shit no wonder you don't understand scripture.

oh ok cool i thought you actually had some writing that predated homer the same way gilgamesh predates the old testament but you don't

>>9754332
Vikings had religion. What's your point?

>>9754339
that had religion in which the gods where native to european land and nature, not some strange all powerful desert god who controls the universe but is alienated from mankind and only communicates through semites

>>9754339
it was empty pagan debauchery

>>9754324
weren't you just complaining about ad hominem? you've already revealed you have some faith about defending european civilization as it's inherently your duty or something. not everyone is religious but 99.99% of people are. pretty much just some obscenely philosophically educated people that aren't. I even hold unfalsifiable opinions that both phenomenological reasoning is a valid way of interpreting reality and that falsifiability is relevant to this conviction. grow up.

>>9754325
>The historical backdrop of the poem is the time of the Late Bronze Age collapse, in the early 12th century BC. Homer is thus separated from his subject matter by about 400 years, the period known as the Greek Dark Ages. Intense scholarly debate has surrounded the question of which portions of the poem preserve genuine traditions from the Mycenaean period. The Catalogue of Ships in particular has the striking feature that its geography does not portray Greece in the Iron Age, the time of Homer, but as it was before the Dorian invasion.

In other words, Homer was working in an oral tradition that predated him, which he appropriated and expanded upon.

>>9754338
IT IS BASED UPON AN ORAL TRADITION YOU FEDORA-COLLECTOR. GILGAMESH IN NO WAY 'PREDATES' THE OLD TESTAMENT. I HAVE DONE MORE ACADEMIC WORK REGARDING BOTH. A COMMON STORY IS NOT A 'PREDATION'.

ALSO, ANYTHING WRITTEN IN THE GREEK AREA BEFORE THE IRON AGE WAS WRITTEN IN A SCRIPT THAT WE EITHER CANNOT TRANSLATE OR ONLY HAVE IN FRAGMENTS
>>9754339
Back to /tg/ you LARPing cuntbag.

>>9754350
no shit fuckhead, but there's no text that predates him, homer is the earliest version we have of homeric material, which is simply not the case for the bible

>>9754342
YEAH EUROPE IS AWESOME FOR REASONS. I CANNOT ARGUE THIS BUT I WILL CLAIM IT ANYWAY WHILE ALSO INSULTING PEOPLE WHO DO NOT ARGUE. WHO NEEDS THAT WITH KATANA-SHARP WIT? HAHA! M'LADY, WOU'D YOU LIKE T'SEE M'FEDORA COLLEXION?

How often must we have this thread? Its probably the same fedora tipper every time. Just leave it be Jesus.

>>9754352
>GILGAMESH IN NO WAY 'PREDATES' THE OLD TESTAMENT.

it was written before the old testament. this is objective fact.

>>9754355
No kiddo, it is the case for the Bible. You haven't actually read it, you regurgitate nonarguments you heard on /r/vikingsrawesome or where ever the hell you idiots find this bullshit.

>>9754359
are you asking jesus to leave it be?

>>9754352
>>9754357
It seems I got your pantaloons in a twist, sir/madam. I've done my job here.

>>9754352
this is because they were written by bicameral men

>>9754359
while it's important to promote christianity among the masses as a bulwark against judaic secular ideologies, we can have a free and open discussions about the construction of christianity here friend

>>9754361
you're basically on some "evolution is just a theory" tier retardation here dude

>>9754360
FACT AND OBJECTIVITY DO NOT EXIST. IT BEING 'WRITTEN' EARLIER IS TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. JUDAISM IS DISTINCT FROM CHRISTIANITY AS WELL. CHRISTIANS DO NOT READ THE OT THE SAME WAY AS JEWS READ THE TORAH. ATHEISTS DO NOT READ IT AT ALL.

>>9754364
I love bicameral hypothesis garbage.

>>9754370
>ATHEISTS DO NOT READ IT AT ALL.
Keep thinking that.

>>9754359
This is my first post on /lit/. I usually abstain from debate, for I do not want to destroy, anally, plebs such as you. Before, I was simply an observer, a lurker in the dark - if you will. Admittedly, I had posted some of my magic realism stories in critique threads.
Otherwise, I would never commit myself to a debate or discussion outside of fantasy threads. But no longer, I am sick to death of Harold Bloom's sycophants screeching for me to read KJV.

>>9754370
gilgamesh as we know it today is a version edited by non-bicameral people

>>9754374
if someone unironically considers themselves an "atheist", they may read but they certainly don't read philosophical materials because it's a cognitivist reactionary stance equally religious as theism.

>>9754355
>which is simply not the case for the bible
The Bible isn't a single text. Some of the stories in its books are found elsewhere, while others aren't. And not having a text that alludes to the Iliad but predates it doesn't make it any less of the result of a long mythic tradition than the books of the Bible are.

>>9754374
I DO NOT NEED TO THINK IT, IT IS THE ACTUALITY. EVEN IF ATHEISTS 'READ' IT, THEY CANNOT ACTUALLY READ IT. THE ENTIRETY OF IT SKIDS OVER THEM. IT NEVER MAKES CONTACT WITH THEM.

>>9754381
you said the iliad was an appropriation from "mythos of other cultures" yet this is not the case, as you said it may be part of the greek oral tradition, but it doesn't openly borrow from other cultures the way the bible does

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there is no such thing as appropriation. we are all one race. the human race

>>9754336
My memory will live on through my close loved ones and friends, of whom will sustain the self (that being me) through their memories. The bible is no different, and I shouldn't care whether apes do remember it.

Where is your argument?

>>9754325
>>9754338
>>9754352
While parallels between the Iliad and Odyssey and other Near Eastern mythology are not particularly wide spread (there are some rather strained comparisons sometimes made), The Homeric Hymns and Hesiod definitely have plenty of common links, and there have been books written on the parallels between them, just as with the Bible. Some of that influence probably exists indirectly in Homer, as well.

But regardless, implying the similarities between the Bible and other Near Eastern myths means the Bible isn't worth reading somehow is just fucking retarded.

>>9754395
hesiod is greek u fucking retard, it's not "mythos from another culture"

>>9754386
This is less of an important distinction than you think. First of all, we don't know if and to what extent outside myths influenced the Homeric tradition. And second, the traditional stories in the Bible aren't the result of myth-stealing, but of a natural immigration of tropes that enter a tribe's oral history when they meet another tribe. This is how story-telling works.

>>9754398
>The Homeric Hymns and Hesiod definitely have plenty of common links [with Near Eastern mythology]
Hope that cleared it up for you, chap.

>>9754378
What are you? Would you also extend your position to positivists?

>>9754410
the greeks were part of the indo-european diaspora, their myths have more in common with hinduism than desert tribes, sorry

>>9754412
Positivists are all atheists, anon. It shows superior intellect.

>>9754386
YES IT DOES. READ MORE LITERATURE. ANY ARGUMENT MADE FOR SIMILARITIES BETWEEN THE BIBLE AND TEOG CAN BE MADE FOR THE ILIAD AND ODYSSEY AND TEOG
YOU CLEARLY NOT ONLY HAVE NOT READ THE BIBLE, BUT HAVE NOT READ HOMER, HESIOD, OR TEOG.
>>9754398
HESIOD'S THEOGONY TAKES GREATLY FROM EASTERN THEOGONY. FRAGMENTS OF LITERATURE FROM A PRE-HESIOD TRADITION DO NOT MAKE THE SAME CLAIMS THAT HESIOD MADE, THEY ARE MUCH LESS 'PHILOSOPHICAL'. HESIOD APPROPRIATES EASTERN STORIES AND REPLACES THEIR DEITIES WITH LOCAL ONES, BECAUSE THEY ARE A CULTURALLY BARREN PEOPLE. CHRISTIANITY SHARES MORE WITH THE PROPER CULTURES OF THE EAST THAN THE BARREN ONE OF GREECE.
>>9754401
WE DO KNOW IF, GREECE WAS NOT ISOLATED YOU DIPWAD

>>9754419
Didn't you write this though? >>9754378

>>9754424
No. I'm OP. I capitalise my letters where it's due. From now on, I shall don the pseudonym of Nim Sudo (a character from my magic realism play)

>>9754378
>not believing in god is the same as actively disbelieving in god
you know all of these fallacies were defeated years ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

>>9754431
i don't take advice from literal cucks

>>9754431
A BAD ARGUMENT MADE BY A POPULAR FACE IS NOT A DEFEAT. RUSSELL IS A STAIN ON EXISTENCE AND NONENTITY.

>>9754435
Russell? A cuck? Well, I'm sure you can take advice from Mohammad (a fictional pedofile) or Jesus (a fictional carpenter who had about as much to say about logic and argument as he did about pedofilia. Clue: he had nothing to say on the matter)

this thread is bait, mate

>>9754418
>A large swath of academic work on near eastern influence in greek works says that it exists, but I'm going to pretend it doesn't because it ruins my narrative
Ok pal.

>>9754446
well link some of it then since there's so much of it

>>9754440
Russel is an actual, certified cuckold, though. As in, factually. And so was his father.

>>9754445
Have I been discovered. Well, it was fun while it lasted, anon, indeed'st'd'ly! You've won the prize, friend, a ticket to my magic realism play titled 'Salman Rushdie Against the Muslim World: A Tale of Heroism'

>>9754447
Most of the material on it is scholarly articles in journals. I don't think there is a lot of layman public access material available for it, because there's really no demand for it.

>>9754467
cool story bro

>>9754327
>willfully eradicate as much of the so-called "pagan" heritage as possible
>declare themselves the creators of western civilization
askwhy.co.uk

>>9754381
And where are the references to genocide in the Iliad and Odyssey? Who is the homeric equivalent to Phineas?

And in B4 stormcuckoldry.

>>9754483
>genocide is bad
typical burgercuck
Why is that even fucking relevant? The Bible isn't fucking genre fiction like the grEEKs.

>>9754440
So Mohammad is better than Jesus because he stuck to pedofilioa?

>>9754435
>>9754438
Well then I'd say it's a good thing Russel only rebranded existing arguments and logic. It's really nothing more than an extrapolation of Occam's Razor. There is no reason to believe god exists, ergo he doesn't.

Or was William of Ockham also a cuckold?

>>9754483
>askwhy.co.uk
What exactly is your point? Muh Greeks? Muh Romans? If either group had a cohesive religious identity that promoted sensible values they'd probably still be around today. Instead they fucked little boys in the ass for Dionysus or whatever.

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I was never baptized and i've never been to church but I don't want to turn into an atheist like OP and so many other atheists you see on the internet.

How do I avoid this fate? Is it atheism coupled with reddit or is this a natural evolution of atheism, regardless whether you browse reddit or not?

>>9754536
>no reason
Invalid.

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>>9754548
Honestly, the best way to avoid becoming such a person is having self respect, a sense of personal worth and integrity. The reason these guys exist is because Christianity is an easy target, completely innocuous to ridicule while allowing one to present themselves as progressive or controversial. Of course they're neither, but it's an easy way to seek validation despite having no practical substance or merit of any kind. It's posturing, assaulting the institution that organized the world in such a way you're privileged to criticize it safely and from a position of prosperity...rebel against that in some petty mean way, it's almost like being disenfranchised right? That makes you one of the good ones, the enlightened who understand other's pain, evident by howling scorn against innocent and peaceable people. How very fashionable.

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>>9754572
So you believe the cosmic teapot exists? Or Zeus? Or fanciful flying unicorns responsible for the aurora borealis by fornicating in the stratosphere and coloring it with their magical sky-ejaculate?

Because these things have just as much evidence or reason to suggest they exist as god. That is to say none. If you believe in one but none all of these, it's simply a logical contradiction. That's not to say you can't be cognitively dissonant and fundamentally hypocritical...but it does having bearing on what's right and what is wrong.

>>9754584
Atheists really don't understand their own logic, do they?
>contradictions are bad
>logic dictates 'right and wrong'
>right and wrong are existent
>evidence and reason are existent
Provide non-contingent evidence for all of this. Tip: you cannot even conceive of doing so without breaking your own rules.

Face it, your 'logic' is self-destructive. It's an idol.

>>9754573
>>9754548
This thread was bait

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>>9754589
It's manifest that some things are true while others are not. One can't argue against the progress of science for example. You flip your lightswitch, you know what to expect -- you believe it will work that the light will turn on, YOU believe in science. And if despite that you're ready to argue something so insensible it's a capitulation all its own and completely dishonest. I mean fuck, you wrote this on the internet buddy. How intellectually bankrupt can one person get...

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>>9754249
I don't think you need to believe or even follow the bible to appreciate how beautifully written the KJV Bible is, OP. Plus, the biblical tales are beautifully structured and expressed (this is coming from an atheist who enjoyed The Koran).

Everything is almost a form of cultural appropriation from something earlier, OP. I don't see how this is a bad thing though if you can express it with a new perspective or reinvent it in some way.

I don't see why you're so ruffled, anon. Nobody said you had to read The Bible in the first place, but like Greek mythology and philosophy, it's one of the literary building blocks of Western civilization.

>>9754249
Why is /lit/ full of so many Joycefags? I mean, it's a story not literature. Ulysses is literally cultural appropriation of mythos from other cultures, told in a shitty fashion and propped up as "real". Come at me, /lit/. Reals > feels

>>9754601
>hurr durr self evident
Science is invalid. You are the only 'intellectually bankrupt' one here. You're a slave to ideology.

>>9754601
>what is a blown lightbulb

>>9754589
This is why some kind of argument from utility is popular now. Science is useful, therefore we set our premises to be the ones which allow for science to exist and tell us these things which are useful. Note that this kind of argument also leaves room for the usefulness of religion, and in fact religion can be quite useful when you cherrypick the good stuff from it. But ultimately, yes, we can't prove that evidence and reason are existent without using them.

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stale thread with the same shit. OP is a fag.

>>9754249
>Reals>Feels
It doesn't, and you don't believe that either or you wouldn't be on /lit/.

>>9754333
Is this the /lit/ version of the Navy Seal pasta?

>>9754249
Dude the point of reading the bible is to let you understand the references and allusions made within earlier western literature.