Catholicism

Read the Bible and watch the Yale online courses while doing the reading. If you want a short cut you can just do the New Testament.

>>9723585
"How the catholic church built western civilization" might be what you're looking for, it's pretty good.

I'm interested in the Church right before the Vatican II split, the history of the split itself, and then current movements that still espouse Pre-Vatican II values/ideology/beliefs.

Will this useless meme ever die?

>>9723608

Sounds good, thanks!

>>9723613
The Iota Unum, it has 800 fucking pages about everything you need to know about the Vatican II.

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>>9723615
Vatican 2 could be interpreted in a way that harms the integrity of the Church and its teachings. However, it's entirely possible to integrate the core principles of Vatican 2 with the broader history of the Church. This is what Benedict was after during his papacy. Francis is trying to do things the wrong way, so our duty as faithful Catholics is to attempt to correct him while still being loyal to him.

>>9723619
Is it a pure history? Also interested in books that take sides both for and against the Vatican II reforms.

Also considering reading Aquinas' Summa Theologica
The complete Summa is dry as fuck. Pick up the concise version instead.

>>9723608
This is a good one

>>9723669
Vatican 2 is literally Protestantism dude. 450 years after Luther the Reformation ended with the complete ideological conquest of Western Christianity. I question how anyone can not now realize that Orthodoxy was the correct version of Christianity all along.

>>9724079
Because Christ didn't establish the Church on Andrew or Paul or anyone else. He established the Church, the true Church, on Peter, and named Peter as its head. It is to Peter alone that the height of Church authority is given, and all his successors as Bishop of Rome share that authority.

You should have more faith. It sounds like yours is a bit lacking.

>>9724094
You're repeating the Catholic party line, but Orthodox would argue that the Bishop of Rome has no more apostolic authority than any other Patriarch. Aren't Christians supposed to judge the truth of something by its fruits? 99% of Catholics today are defacto Protestants with Protestant beliefs who celebrate mass in a Protestant way, it's clear the Catholic Church is not the Church that was supposed to prevail against the gates of hell and last until Christ returned.

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Are these books a good introduction to early Christianity? I'm interested in the subject but I know nothing about it.

>>9724116
>implying schismatics aren't proto-protestants

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>>9724116
>99% of Catholics today are defacto Protestants with Protestant beliefs who celebrate mass in a Protestant way

You realize there are 1.2 billion Catholics, right, and that they're all over the world? Your limited exposure to certain parishes in the United States or Europe does not account for even the majority of Catholics' celebration of the Mass.

>>9724285
Most "Catholics" not in Europe or USA do not even understand Christianity, they just mix it with their own shamanistic/animistic indigenous religions and create something which cannot really be called Christianity. The ones that do happen to actual be Christian may have the "right" beliefs on a few hotbutton social issues like gay marriage, but they are worse in every way than Europeans and Americans in terms of overall doctrinal errors and Protestantization of the mass. Just look at where SSPX and FSSP have a presence. Africans aren't praying in Latin.

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>>9724303
Why do you have so little faith in God's oversight of the Church? This merely returns to what I said up here >>9724094 . You claim to support one of the Apostolic Churches but you don't seem to have any confidence in God giving it strength and preserving it from error. Do you believe in God? Do you believe he guides the Church? Do you believe the Holy Spirit is with the Church?

>>9724137
The Desert Fathers are really great, if they're who I think they are in these collections. Basil the Great, Gregory of Nyssa, and Gregory of Nazianzus are all deep, sympathetic thinkers. I might also recommend Gregory of Nyssa's "The Life of Moses" for some insight into the way the early Church approached Scripture.

>>9724079
This.

Also, the filioque is literally Plotinus. The Orthodox have their shit figured out.

Am I supposed to believe post-Vatican II Rome still has Peter's power to bind and loose?

>I think that the Catholicism is incorrect because x, y, z.
>>Catholic: The Church was founded on Peter and Peter alone. Why do you not have faith in God?
>I don't think that is true because x, y, z. Could we discuss these issues please?
>>Catholic: Why do you not have faith in the Church established by God? Do you not believe God guides the Church?
>I'm saying that I am disputing your claim that the Roman Catholic Church constitutes th-
>>Catholic: Why do you not have faith in God?

Every time.

>>9725353
so Peter implicitly endorses Vatican II? Is that what you're saying?

>>9725387
You misread my post. I was saying that Catholics here generally refuse to engage in actual discussions and rather repeat the same boneheaded assertions ad nauseam; cf. >>9724094 >>9724324. We also got >>9723669 claiming that VII can be reconciled with tradition. Of course we're never told where this supposed reconciliation actually is, because it doesn't exist.

>>9725404
Ah, right.

>>9725404
>>9725404
It's interesting that Benedict did try to reconcile V2, he mentions it in a few of his books on Jesus (which are good books btw) but he of course becomes the 2nd Pope in history to resign.

Was it really that he was just tired?

I used to be a Catholic until /his/ and /pol/ taught me how bluepilled it is now, gonna join the Orthodox bros now seeing as they are redpilled

>>9723669
I was talking about catholicism.

>>9723669
>Francis is wrong but let us remain flocked around him pathetically while Catholicism through the Pope turns slowly into lefty/pol/

>>9727660
Really makes you question Catholicism doesn't it?

is there a good direct/indirect response to Nietsche's criticisms of christianity?

he seems to have some pretty strong moral arguments against the church and how it inspires self-denial, mediocrity and resentment against the 'aristocratic'

>>9728590
I want to see this if it exists.

>>9728590
the biography of literally any European "great man"

>>9725528
nice

>daily reminder that believing in more than one deity is retarded
>daily reminder that catholicism or christianity is NOT a monotheistic religion

>>9729809
Tell me more.

>>9731483
Not that anon but google intercession of saints

>>9725353
>>Catholic: The Church was founded on Peter and Peter alone.

Well it's no wonder you're not having any productive conversations with Catholics. You're not accurately representing their views.

>>9731607
Can you give me the basic gestalt?

>>9729809
>christianity is NOT a monotheistic religion
wtf I love christianity now, where do I sign up?

Reminder Novus Ordo hasn't properly been implemented by any parish, It was supposed to be every bit if not more prestigious and regal as the TLM.

>>9731825
This was needed.

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>>9728590
The greatest argument against Nietzsche from a Christian perspective is pic related, and everything like it.

Nietzsche's arguments fall flat when the supernatural is real. Nietzsche assumes an atheistic, materialistic world, or at least that's what he seems to posit. When the Christian God provides proof of his existence, philosophical critiques ring hollow. But of course /lit/ doesn't take the miraculous seriously.

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>>9732923
I believe in the super natural. But pic related could you please actually respond to the moral questioning of Christianity?

>>9731825
The NO liturgical books allow for improper implementation. It can be good, or at least not banal, but there are usually 4 ways to say something and 99% cases priests choose the most vapid one, instead of praying the ones akin to the Tridentine one. The excuses are either fear from their bishops or of course the idea that people want it to be shorter.

>>9728590
It takes extreme ignorance of history to make this claim. Look at the chief figures in Catholicism. Those were hardly mediocre, self denying (shaping yourself according to the will of God is self perfecting) and the aristocratic elements are the literal hierarchy of the Church. A bishop is an aristocrat of the religious domain.

Ugh all of these christposters stinking up /lit/.

>>9733273
Well, my point is that if the supernatural elements of Christianity are true, the whole thing is true. And if the whole thing is true, then the universe, and more specifically human society, is constituted precisely as Christ says in the Gospels. The meek DO inherit the Earth. The poor ARE beloved by God. You SHOULD turn the other cheek. God is real, and Jesus Christ is God, so his commands carry the weight of divine edict. Nietzsche's criticism of Christianity is therefore the equivalent of a man passionately, eloquently arguing about how the sky is red, when the sky is obviously blue. Christianity's moral order isn't merely optional, it's the way things are, period.

>>9732923
if it doesnt cover supernatural then its wrong

>>9724303
This can be applied to orthodogs as well though, you mouthbreathing moron.

>>9724324
>>9724137
I read the complete writings of St John of Damascus on recommendation and found them deeply rewarding, they are clear and concise. He is a polymath of law, theology and philosophy. Pretty much convinced me to join Orthodoxy.

Catholics aren't supposed to read, that's reserved for priests and monks.

>>9738180
The more I hear about it the more I can't stand the cultholics.

Did Aquinas really save the West by saying that looking up to non-Christian figures and thinkers was important

>>9731607
Please stop talking about shit you don't understand, proddy

>>9740909
Well did he? Don't leave me hanging.

>>9738180

Catholics are encouraged to read, it's just not recommended for them to interpret bible.

>>9741872
Well, Catholics are encouraged to read the Bible, but the Church's designated interpretation of Scripture should always be kept in mind. Otherwise one might interpret the Bible based purely one one's whims and moods, which would be a disaster.

>>9740958
Gimme your mental gymnastics that explains how the saints are NOT minor deities.

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>>9741896
Not him, but I suppose my answer would be: that's just how God likes it.

God likes intermediaries. God likes intercessors. God like servants, to put it precisely. God likes to empower people to do his will, and then send them off to go do it. God doesn't like to act wholly of his own accord. Even in the miracles of the Exodus, when he did tremendous wonders, he was still technically acting through Moses. Even in the greatest miracle of our own age, the Miracle of the Sun, he was acting through the children of Fatima one the one hand, and through Holy Mother Mary on the other.

Why? I don't know. Maybe it's God giving his creation some validation. Maybe because it's righteous and fitting in ways beyond our understanding. It's not my place to argue "why." But the saints interceding through the power of God is totally consistent with how God has acted through history, and the reason he acts that way is something for only him to know. I won't presume to speculate on why He behaves that way.

>>9723585
I'm in the same position as OP, trying to know more about Catholicism (also French) and bought >>9723608

>>9742140
The French have massive amounts of at the moment untranslated theology and philosophy from that era. Pre V2 they were an intellectual bastion, but after it they seem to have lost all influence and what they have stays relatively obscure. Unless we count heterorthodox or heretical stuff like Lubac.

>>9742174
What some beginner level stuff I could read?

>>9742187
As far as specifically French things go, I am not sure, but assuming you know your Gospels and Epistles, I'd recommend the Church Fathers like Justin Martyr, Ignatius of Antioch, Polikarp, Didache, Clement of Rome and so on. Very useful for getting a picture of the historic continuity and beliefs of the Church. After that st. Augustine and Athanasius of Alexandria. Apologia pro Vita Sua by John Henry Newman is pretty great too.

>>9742210
Thanks for the recommendation

>>9723608
>"How the catholic church built western civilization"
That's a strange way to spell "How the curch ruined everyting".

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/0780Bookburning.php

>>9742245
For shame! I wanted to watch animals rape slaves in live TV from our Mars colony on its 500th anniversary!

>>9723585
>Also considering reading Aquinas' Summa Theologica

You realize that's like 3000 pages long right?

>>9742419
That's not the main problem, it needs a bit of preparation with Aristote and the fathers and Scripture.

>>9723588
Which Yale online course, the one with Christine Hayes? I'm somewhat against the lecturer being a woman, especially on the bible, but if you say it's really good then i'll watch it.

Any more secondary sources as well as philosophers and theology writers that you all could suggest? I've seen plenty of primary sources and online courses for now.

>>9743483
Read God, Philosophy, Universities by Alsadair MacIntyre and pick up on what he covers

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>>9741913
>that's just how God likes it.

>IMPLYING YOU KNOW THE MIND OF THE UNKNOWABLE

go back to high school

>>9743752
>Alsadair MacIntyre
If I get into Notre Dame I honestly hope to meet him eventually. I love this reading list everyone here is helping me formulate and would appreciate any other suggestions as they may emerge.

>I want to study Christianity/Catholicism but don't want to read the Bible
Honestly what the fuck is wrong with you, OP? Especially if you're considering reading the Summa Theologica which is longer than the Bible itself.

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Off topic but I really need to finally gather courage and go to confession this Sunday.

Living without an Eucharist for a month is getting unbearable. Pray for me.

>>9743799
Notre Dame is a progressive shithole now sadly.
>>9744514
Just quit porn lmao

>>9745238
More proof that lit is a good traditionalist Catholic board!

>>9747044
Since the start of the Francis pontificate every reading Catholic seems to have became a traditionalist. Exactly the opposite of what he wanted, but very good.

>>9723588
>catholic
>reading the Bible
-_-

Vatican II can be chalked up as another example of how the world was ideologically ruined by the World Wars desu, in "softening" the Church it watered it down too.

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>>9747140
>tfw even now God is working to save the Church

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>>9728590
depends on whether or not you subscribe to the thesis that religion completes tragedy & transmits its meaning to the human sciences, as some do

alternatively pic rel
>and that the world of politics could possibly represent a more thoroughly devastating rejoinder to itself than that which it already is, which is to say, hieronymous bosch on meth

>>9747626
Wasn't Ratzinger a better Pope anyways?

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>>9748917
Than John Paul, or Francis? Benedict was better than Francis, but John Paul was "the Great" for a reason. Admittedly towards the end he started to botch the child rape crisis, but I'll cut him a little slack there because the man was dealing with late stage Parkinson's disease at the time.

>>9748921
My bad. John Paul. Apparently John Paul was a good bit more liberal than I remember remember him being. Of course Benedict was better than Francis is but what makes John Paul so remarkable other than his sheer amount of time as Pope? Is Benedict one of the more theologically conservative Popes that the church has had in some time? Sorry I'm not even a Catholic just someone with a scholarly interest passing through and making observations.

>>9749021
Neither JP II or Benedict were actually theologically conservative, they just weren't heretical. Francis on the other hand opened the way for various heresies with his encyclicals or exhortations. Some would say implicitly, some explicitly. There's a massive crisis of continuity going on right now, epistemically, it may be the greatest crisis the Church has ever faced because it's contradicting her own authority and thus breaking it.

>>9749622
Thanks everyone here for teaching me so much about your religion. So who would anyone here say was the last theologically conservative Pope I guess? At this rate I'm considering starting by reading biographies on various Popes throughout the church's storied history.

>>9749635
Pius XII was the last pope who cared about orthodoxy in the Church and employed means to combat heresy. After his death authors who were at best borderline heretical became incredibly influential and have managed to almost completely eradicate the centre of the Faith, which was the Roman liturgy from the probably 4th or 5th century that was used until 1969 and got replaced by what most know as mass today- a watered down version that even opens doors for more banalities. After the second Vatican Council, the Inquisition became congregation of doctrine and faith and stopped condemning heresy almost completely- they only suppressed Hans Kung, then popular theologian who was spewing heresy for decades and a few more. They also suppressed The Society of St. Pius X. who preserved the traditional liturgy (now it's much more spread, there are around 1200 priests who celebrate it, compared to 200 in the 80s) because of illicit ordinations of bishops, but the tension was there from before because they refused to believe anything different than what was believed prior to the council- they reject human rights and religious liberty as both concepts and values, ecumenism and strictly adhere to scholastic theology.

>>9749635
One more thing, it's not to say JPII and Benedict XVI are not worth reading, Benedict was an excellent theologian, especially his post 2000 writings which made a more traditional turn.

>>9750467
Thanks, you've given me a lot to consider there.
>>9750482
Where do you suggest I start with the writings of and about Popes? I'll probably try to find good histories of the church and then either go in order or based on which Popes interest me the most.

>>9725528
Religious truth transcends petty national and cultural concerns. If you're swayed from the one Church because of fucking /pol/, your faith wasn't very strong to begin with.

>>9751348
Popes for the most part take a backseat in what you'll find interesting to read. They mostly didn't leave writings as such that are widely read, except a few encyclicals that deal with various specific matters. I would generally not recommend reading the popes or the councils to get introduced with the Catholic faith. Writings of the saints are generally more interesting, but if you had to pick which popes to read I'd recommend Leo XIII, Pius X, Pius XII, John Paul II, Paul VI and Benedict XVI.

>>9751712
So any good general histories of the church or more specific texts I should read?

>>9742864
>against the lecturer being a women
yer an idiot, she does a great job. One of the better yale courses i've seen

>>9752722
>Woman
>Does a great job
Seems like you are the idiot. Pick one of these things.

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>>9752722
>A women
Kys familia

>>9749622
Which is of course why it should be faced with all seriousness and with the ferocity of the swords of the angels. One should not fear to attack and defame a heretical priest, bishop, cardinal, or even pope, for God is always with those who follow his Word.

>>9747044
>catholic
>traditional

>>9724303
>implying that believe is not fundamentally individual.
its your personal path to god. i do not believe anyone that says otherwise. i may follow the catholic church but mixing believe with tradition is not ethicly wrong. i can be mexican, follow the catholic church and celebrate festivals that are not usuall in catholic believe. its about my journay to christ
>i say this as a catholic

>>9737822
>Orthodogs


if only we could love with half the spirit of dogs, maybe then Catholicspergs would leave behind their guitar masses for the liturgy

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>>9752545
you could always look into the wars of Europe

>>9756800
Nice to see this thread is still going. Any specific things you suggest searching for or good books that I should read and refer to?

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>>9756809
Im not sure where to begin book wise, but range of topics is incredibly large.

If you want more modern, you could look into The Troubles or the Spanish Civil war. Though, you could always work your way up from the Crusades.

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also relevant

>>9756834
Aren't there also charts that break down suggestions based on various sects? Protestant readings, Catholic ones, etc?

Before Church and State: A Study of Social Order in the Sacramental Kingdom of St. Louis IX

>>9756834
You've gotta be careful about anything approved by /christian/, and those recommended Bible translations aren't very /lit/ at all.