Catholic Literature General

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redpill me on christian anarchism

>>9713241
Non-edgy anarchism is very compatible with Christian thought. Think of the Amish and such, they're closer to true anarchy than any other community in the world and they're also some of the purest Christians. Ivan Illych and Jacques Ellul drop some excellent Bogpills on the subject.

>>9713246
>non-edgy anarchism
is such thing posible my friend?

>>9713249
Yes, simply by calling it something other than anarchism

>>9713214
When is the Bible 2 coming out? I've been waiting on the sequel for ever now.

>>9713249
Yes, rather than picturing a big city on fire with no road maintenance and armies of child soldiers waiting to tear each other to pieces over NAP violations proper anarchism is supposed to be self-contained communities that mind their own business and sort out issues among themselves. Of course this is how society used to be before Hetmanship, which led to chiefdom, which led to Kings and so forth, but the idea is that an enlightened community can avoid that. I don't buy it but the theory is nice.

>>9713214
I really do think Christianity is a fantastic religion to be a part of, and I enjoy it more and more as I study both the Quran and the Bible. The Old Testament has some fucked-up shit in it, and by the way the Old Testament is apparently part of both Christianity and Judaism, or at least parts of it. Leviticus in particular is messed up; that book was written between 530-330BC if memory serves, and says homosexuals must be put to death, that people who partake in incest of various specific kinds can be put to death/stoned/shunned from society/will die childless, and so on and so forth.

So the Old Testament legitimately has parts in it that supports stonings and executions, but then Jesus Christ came about with the message of peace, love, and tolerance. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." This flies in the face of the Old Testament, and I even spoke to an Anglican priest about it. He said that the Old Testament should be viewed through the lens of the New, through the lens of Jesus Christ's preachings, and that's why modern day Christians don't believe in gay-bashing, or at least the vast majority of Christians don't. So even though that horrible stuff is in Leviticus, Chapter 20 specifically, Jesus says to essentially ignore it and aspects like it in the Old Testament.

In spite of this though, I can't agree that if someone slaps you then you should turn your head to offer the other cheek. Yes we should love thy neighbour and even love thy enemy, but we're not being slapped. We're being shot, stabbed, blown up, and run over. How do we turn the other cheek to Islam? I don't think we can... anyways, I want to read the Bible, starting with the New and then moving to the Old just as the priest suggested. I also want to read the Quran. I already have several pieces of paper with Islamic passages written on it. Two passages I genuinely like, but probably like 20 that are just... barbaric compared to western society and Biblical teachings. Islam is a scary religion, but I guess that's the point; it promotes striking fear into the hearts of non-believers. I'm a non-believer (non-Muslim), and Islam scares me.

>>9713267
modern islamic craziness sounds like leviticus 20 desu

>>9713267
I think that 'Turn the other cheek' should be taken in context of what Jesus and his followers were faced with. The Romans weren't running a program of extermination or replacement, they were putting up flags and collecting harsh taxes. I think that Jesus would agree that self-defense is a valid response to what appears to be a program of extermination or replacement, as any sane person would. An infringement against material prosperity, sovereignty or any other spooks isn't worth a World War, but Peace Trucks and 1 million Sudanese neurosurgeons immigrating every other week is a completely different matter.

The idea is to transcend the material. Jesus was trying to discourage an insurrection against the Romans because he could see that it would be futile and horribly destructive, and that having to suffer under Roman rule was perfectly tolerable through integrity of the will. Caesars come and go, but a disciplined and wise people can outlast them all. What's happening in Europe with Islam now isn't a Caesar situation at all. These people are actively destroying Christian communities, that's not something you can shrug off and endure. Of course the situation is complicated by the fact that this has been occurring over an incredibly long period of time and has only accelerated to the point of being obvious recently but I think that it's still clear that 'turn the other cheek' is not applicable to what's happening at the moment and that something should be done, or else soon there'll be nobody left interested in following Jesus' teaching, and that would probably be the greatest tragedy in human history.

>>9713267
There is something admirable about your fascination with Christianity, but there is no other purpose for its teachings other than contributing to social norms and beliefs throughout western culture. Our values, our morals -- I would hope -- stem from our abilities to reason. To use syllogism as a guide. To determine that it is better to work together than to kill each other. And, perhaps, to identify various holes in the universe that any religious text sets up, and conclude that it was made up by humans. Intellect from the bible, or an accurate world view cannot be extrapolated from the Kuran or the Bible. A rough perception, but the details are not refined. They only refine with science in the form of revisions. To correct what the Bible says to keep it relevant. What once used to say the world was flat like a disk, now compares it to being round like a ball. I respect the views; if it makes you a good person, that's good. But you shouldn't be good because you believe heaven is your reward for it.

>>9713342
Not that anon, I've been getting very interested in Catholicism lately and your post made me realize that the idea of heaven hadn't even crossed my mind in what's probably been years. Does that mean that I'm doing it really right or really wrong? I'm interested in the historical, sociological and theological implications of the religion, heaven just seems like kind of a bonus afterthought right now.

>>9713249
Yes. There are quite a few 'Christian-Anarchists'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTAhC3abq0E

>>9713285
As I understand it, 'turn the other cheek,' while a non-violent response, is not passive, but actively insulting to the honor of the one who struck you.

>>9713706
he has some good points though

B-b-but I thought Christ-chan is a protestant, maybe a Presbyterian.

>>9713798
I was confused by this, too. She's staunchly protestant.

>>9713283
Except that Islam focuses on not only homosexuality but also on non-believers as well, but either way ever since Jesus Christ, Christians have essentially ignored Leviticus Chapter 20. We do not believe in putting people to death simply for homosexuality, incest, bestiality, or laying with one's wife while she is menstruating. Christianity has evolved over time thanks to the teachings of Jesus Christ; I think Islam needs a New Testament to promote love, tolerance, and peace.

>>9713285
There is actually a passage in the Bible that speaks of self-defence. It goes something like "If a thief should break into your home at night and you should strike him with a fatal blow, then the defender is not guilty of manslaughter." Sorry, can't remember the name/chapter/number, but oddly enough the next verse says that if it should be after the sun rises (daylight) then... I can't remember... but basically if it's at night then it's ok but if it's during the day then it's manslaughter or something like that. Anyways, that's the closest I could find in the Bible that allows for killing. I THINK it's in the New Testament but correct me if I'm wrong; I could very well be wrong. If it's Old Testament then it probably goes against he teachings of Jesus.

>>9713342
I think western culture stems from a basis of Christianity. Thou shalt not kill. Yes there is still some capital punishment/executions in western culture but those are for only the most heinous of individuals who have no chance of redemption and only serve to be dangerous leeches on society. In the Middle East though, there are honour killings, there are homosexuals being thrown from rooftops, there are terrorist attacks against non-believers, and so on and so forth. Science is most definitely important however. You're right. The Bible and Quran contain explanations to mysteries that are 1400+ years old. The book of Leviticus is nearly 2300-2500 years old. We can't let religion get in the way of Science, but religion most definitely has a place in modern society. God knows when I'm facing death, I will want the thought of Heaven to comfort me, even if many think it is fantasy and fiction.

>>9713964
That point on manslaughter is interesting. I couldn't place it but the significance of day/night seems to be what modern law would define as 'reasonableness'. Finding a thief in your home at night is a far more stressful, intense and potentially dangerous situation than finding one during the day, and so the difference in appropriate reactions would follow from this.

>>9714081
Exodus 22:2, I think it is. Did a quick bit of Googling to find it. Ah, it also appears as though Exodus is part of the Old Testament, in fact it might even be older than Leviticus. So I guess if we look at it through the lens of the New Testament and Jesus Christ, it is possible that it is another part of the Old Testament that we should ignore as modern Christians, though personally I think it is a good thing to include in how we live. We should defend ourselves, our family, and our property and possessions, even with lethal force if we must. I need to study the Bible more.

>>9713255
"The Bible 2" is called the New Testament you pleb.

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>>9713964
>I think Islam needs a New Testament to promote love, tolerance, and peace.

this is what she says also. islam needs a reformation

>and perhaps that is why it resists it so hard, because look at what the reformation did to catholicism afterwards

>>9713798
>>9713817

good point

plz explain christ-anons

>>9714240
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism

>>9713798
>>9713817
>>9714247
She converted to Catholicism after someone red pilled her on the Eucharist.

The papacy wasn't too difficult to accept, since it's so clear in Scripture and history.

The Marian doctrines were her last hurdle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb0dH-8KpeI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cun8Tccf5Xk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KHgLzu_nbw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USQQREE1nM0

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>>9714251
wahhabism is the protestant reformation of islam then? makes sense i guess

>>9714484
>ayaan hirsi ali
>converted to catholicism

going to need some citations for that one

>>9714505
>>9714484

aaaah....whoops, sorry.

got my memes mixed up

my bad fellas

>kills self

>>9714505
Conservative/Fundamentalist Islam is the Reformation. It is a reaction against the Secular Left from the 50s/60s

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>>9713267
> can't agree that if someone slaps you then you should turn your head to offer the other cheek

We only got two cheeks, m8.

>>9713267
>Leviticus in particular is messed up
>people who partake in incest of various specific kinds can be put to death/stoned/shunned from society/will die childless, a
>incest is a-ok

>>9713267
Christianity is anti-war but not anti self-defense, or necessarily anti-capital punishment.

You should look to Feser and Macintyre on this.

Is there a list of literal and metaphorical verses in the Bible? How do you know which is which?

>>9714557
They're all metaphorical, allegorical, figurative and literal.

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>>9714557
Just research Biblical Hermeneutics

Literally no question on this thread was answered 1000 years ago.

Does anyone here even do fourfold interpretation, senpai?

>>9714484
this, desu

>>9713433
>the idea of heaven hadn't crossed my mind in what's probably been years
>does that mean I'm doing it really right or wrong?
The fact that you haven't contemplated heaven in years means that you are a mouth breathing imbecile that is incapable of thought.

>>9714548
>Doesn't think those who partake in incest should be put to death
>Incest is a-ok

I also don't think thieves should have their hands cut off, but that doesn't mean I think thievery is a-ok as you put it. I don't think that incest is a-ok but I don't think it's an offence worthy of the death penalty either.

>>9714552
Feser and Macintyre? Doesn't sound like parts of the Bible.

>>9714616
>stoned/shunned from society/will die childless
You didn't only say that they will be put to death.

>>9714616

>Feser and Macintyre? Doesn't sound like parts of the Bible.

The bible doesn't say I shouldn't hijack airplanes. It's a good thing that not everything we believe needs to be in the bible or else the "argument from silence" would be a legitimate argument to make. It's a damn good thing that Christianity is not a religion "of the book" like Sunni Islam or some Protestant denominations are or else we would have to abandon reason like they did.

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>>9714240
>look at what the reformation did to catholicism afterwards
Brought about a chain of events that made it the largest religion of the world and the countries that practiced the most powerful, wealthy and technologically advanced in human history?

>>9714761
>the countries that practiced the most powerful, wealthy and technologically advanced in human history?

catholic countries all lag protestant countries in development, technology, fighting corruption, etc. i want to like catholicism because of it's antiquity, but everywhere i look catholic countries are barely better than islamic ones while protestant nations flourish, seems one has god's favor and the others not

>>9714616
>Feser and Macintyre? Doesn't sound like parts of the Bible.

I mean read them on Christianity and capital punishment, because obviously you don't have a solid grasp on the Bible, which is fine. They have strong arguments, stemming from Biblical sources, on the question of capital punishment and self-defense.

>>9714772
And yet the richest parts of Germany are Catholic, just like in other countries or regions which are almost exclusively Catholic (Spain, Italy, Latin America) you see an inequality in development that's unrelated to substrate religion. Likewise, the modern age was headed by Catholic countries (Spain, France), which then lagged behind as the Anglosphere came to the front thanks to indestrialization and capitalism.

I mean, it's kind of stupid to blame Catholicism as a dogma for unadvancement when the big complaint around it is that the Church and the Catholics are corrupt hypocrites. To me it's more likely that the various geopolitical factors that allowed Protestantism to spread in certain parts of Europe and not others are the real reason why there's a difference, and not the religion of itself.

>>9714801
Sounds interesting, thanks!

>>9714830
this

protestantism is good for capitalism. atomization you know-
*sprouts tentacles*
*reaches for crucifix, begins pounding head against wall*
*tentacles recede*
>don't open that box you fucker leave capitalism alone

sorry, please continue. i - i'm fine, really it's nothing

Any obscure Catholic books or obscure books that influenced Catholics like Hypnerotomachia Poliphili?

>be reading section 5 of Genesis

>that massive list of how old each son of son of son of son of son etc. of Adam grew to be (often close to a thousand years old)

what the fuck

>>9715230
It was different before the Flood.

>>9713717

That's one of those "nursery rhymes with a dark past" deals, not real.

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>Abraham was circumcised when he was 99 years old

>>9715707
>practicing egyptian genital mutilation

no

>>9714830
Catholicism collapsed in Northern Europe because they were way way to heavily focused on a appeasing the then powerful France and Spain, It's really that simple, It often went like this:

>Northern Europe: Woah, Mr. Pope we've got some really cool Theologians here, we wanna send him to Rome to get it officialized.
>Pope: Fuck off, we're also canonizing your archnemesis
>England: dude our newly minted Catholic queen is going full crazy and violating canon law
>Pope: lol

>>9715707
>And let us feed our daddy drunk so we can have his babies.

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Just got mine from the mail.

>>9713214
does that girl has a penis? i want suck it and it blow hard. mm i do love ma a good boy cock; (sorry if my inglish is bad i am israeli)

>>9713741
>though

I know, wasn't criticizing him

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>>9713267
So few people actually read the Bible it's sad. They just know that Leviticus is the place where "all of the fucked up shit happens." It's been a meme before the internet.

Now, sit tight, lads, and continue on past Leviticus all the way to the Book of Joshua (two books after Leviticus) and read about Rahab right at the beginning. This "harlot" did not get stoned. In fact, she is seen as virtuous. A downright whore, virtuous? Hard to believe, yet it's true. She is the only woman spared in a city that gets genocided by the Hebrews.

Obviously the Bible is full of contradictions if you view it as nothing more than a code of laws. However, if you read it carefully, you can understand that the book is constantly improving (or changing, if you're a Nietzschean) its morality as it progresses. Hence "Old Testament" and "New Testament." Good and evil are tweaked along the way.

>>9713214
I was baptized a Catholic and now no longer keep the Sabbath, but I'm sure that if I was born during the Reformation, I would have been some sort of Protestant because I believe that scripture should be available in the vernacular language. At that point in history, the Catholic Church had become the new Pharisees and were utterly corrupt. Now, who knows. There might be better qualified people to judge this in a few hundred years from now.

All I have to say, is the traditionalist Catholics are incredibly deluded for thinking Latin is a sacred tongue. There is no such thing as a sacred language. It's nothing more than babble.

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This man is your FRIEND

He fights for CHRIST

Also everyone should read "God or Nothing" and "The Power of Silence."

>>9715230
>tfw the names of the sons of sons of sons in order translated might be a prophecy for the coming of the messiah.

>>9717006
You sound confused.

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>>9717292
What's interesting is that Genesis has a number of things in it that directly prophecy the messiah and even the salvific death of the messiah. The whole story of the sacrifice of Isaac is particularly pregnant with prophetic meaning. And the book was indisputably written long before anyone had any idea of the messiah being imminent, though precisely when it was written is, of course, a matter of debate.

>>9717071
>Sarah elected pope
>liberals torn between him being first black pope and criticizing him

>>9716989
I actually only learned about Leviticus recently, and have it put to memory that it was written around 530-330BC, essentially predating the Roman Empire or at least long-predating the height of the Roman Empire, also over 400 years before the city of London was established in 100AD as Londinium. Speaking of which, surely London is gonna be rockin' come 2100AD. It's only another 83 years, some of us might be around to read about it. Anyways, yeah, I fully intend to read the entirety of the Bible someday. As instructed by an Anglican priest, I'll start with the New Testament then read the Old Testament through the lens of the New, as well as through the Lens of Jesus Christ's teachings.

>>9713255
The sequel did come out but Bible 2: Quran isn't nearly as good as the original.

>>9713246
>purest christians

>>9717071
Is there a torrent yet? There was one for his first book.

>>9716149
I need one fast to make sense out of the V2 debacle.
It's incredibly hard to read it in continuity of teaching.

>>9717899
Fuck you, this post is not funny.

>>9717899
epic meme dude theists btfo

>>9718666

Nobody uses torrents anymore

>>9718724
I do.
Is there a libgen/bookzz/whatever download of The Power of Silence?

The reverse version of Lolita?

>>9718666
I can't find it, but if you want some good Catholic reading in the meantime check out this guy's uploads. Lots of good audio books to listen to while doing other stuff

http://kickasstorrents.to/user/catholicstuff/uploads/