Why do /lit/izens tell people to go back to video games, anime,

Take PCP and kill your entire family then kill yourself

>>9708934
>each has its peaks which could punch their weight with great literature
Oh, dear. I needed a laugh today.

>>9708945
For video games, it's mostly on PC:
Vampire: The Masquerade
System Shock 2
Deus Ex
Dark Souls (if youre into Lovecraft /lit/)
Planescape Torment
Spec Ops: The Line
The Witcher 3
Silent Hill 2

>>9709014
>Dark Souls
>(if youre into Lovecraft /lit/)
But Dark Souls barely has any Lovecraftian stuff in it, it's mostly an apocalyptic existential story. Now Bloodborne and Demon's Souls...

>>9708934
Don't watch tv at all but my sister threw MadMen at me a few xmases back and i must admit i was impressed. the thought did pass Where all the great American novelists? Theyre in Hollywood writing for tv....
My reading habits haven't changed, however.

>>9709014
>>9709095
Dark Souls is dark fantasy. Bloodborne is what anon must have meant.

>>9708934
>video games, anime, manga, and TV
Why post about this these when the board is meant for literature? I want to watch the life leave your eyes.

>>9708945
>implying genuine kino can't reach the heights of literary fiction.
I bet you don't even watch Weimer era filmography you cuck.

>>9709014
yikes...

>>9708934
>Anyway, not everyone can read hard literature all the time,

that's right, some people are mediocre and lack willpower

>>9709014
i don't want to sound like a dick. i've played games all my life. loved them dearly, went into such depraved love that i played dwarf fortress and Omega RL for days on end. this is just a preface to tell you that not a single one of these games, which i've played most of, come anywhere close to what i consider great literature. in their right, these games are beautiful, fun, atmospheric, and wonderful. Literature simply has so much more to offer. entire lives are born and die deep in your psyche as you sift through an atmosphere tightly controlled by a single person's pen. you fall in love, truly, with people who literally have never and will never exist, you see sights beyond your wildest dreams, and open doorways into god's domain. you dissect and break through the cruel boundaries of solipsism that we suffer by submerging yourself in the minds of others. It is more than emotional connections that i usually experience in video games or manga, that tingle of excitement, that intellectual chuckle of the theatrics of a tv show character, but never have i felt the dust under my fingertips as i hid my gold under a floorboard as i did when i read silas marner, for example. these tiny moments that are so infinitely personal, so memorable, so defined and nuanced, they just never come to such a climax in the lesser arts like they do with literature.

Literature is actually a really shitty medium and is only made for brainlets who can't understand nonfiction and homosexuals who want to feel smart.

>>9709194
Tbh, I've never had an emotional connection from anything else that comes close to either Persona 3 or 4.

I'm being completely serious. I felt like I'd made friends, and after they'd ended I had to walk outside for a while to get over it.

>>9709162
BB is a PS4 exclusive though (sadly).

>>9709206
projecting much?

>>9709223
I bought a (admittedly used and pretty cheap) PS4 just to play BB. It was worth it.

>>9709225
This post doesn't even mean anything, you just chose a meme at random and posted it as your response. This is why you should spend less time reading literature.

>>9709235
>play DS1 on PC
>fall in love
>want more beating after the game 20+ times
>jesus christ DS2 sucks
>DS3 seems like it's derivative of 1
>DeS and BB seem like everything i liked about DS1 pushed into two logical conclusions
>PS3 and PS4 exclusives
>have neither
>PS4 isn't retrocompatible
You had one fucking job Sony.

King's Field it is then.

>>9709221
running the risk of sounding like an asshole, you need to read more literature. I played through Persona 3, and its relationship sim aspects are though interactive and entertaining, mere phantoms of the psychological depth that can be derived from literature and the characters within. needless to say, you're still identifying with these characters not through the game as a graphical experience, but rather the textual, narrative, and philosophical aspects, all of which are ultimately derived from and perfected in literature. you are reading a gimped book. I do hope you enjoy yourself regardless, but i remember playing through rpgs on and on, and one day realizing it was never enough, the stories were just too diluted, themes could never come to fruition because of the scattered attentions of its creators. nothing like the charged creativity of a man and the assistance of an editor or two.

>>9709256
I feel ya. Still haven't played DeS because of this. Hoping someday they'll do a remaster, but I doubt it.

>>9709171
>Weimer era filmography
>video games, anime, manga, and TV?

how's your reading comprehension anon

>>9709258
I legitimately miss characters from Proust's novel
tfw you'll never get more rants from le Baron du Charlus

>>9708934
>but each has its peaks which could punch their weight with great literature

lol. If that is true, why are you so insecure about it? Go ahead and enjoy whatever the fuck you want, just don't compare it to literature.

>>9708939
Dom what the fuck

>literature is at least 3.500 year old
>games are 50 years at best
>huh duh let's cherrypick the best from each other
>huh duh literature is so much more amazing
wow.

also games are about interactivity, they're totally diferent.

game masterpieces are stuff like DOOM, Tetris, touhou, pacman, chess, shogi, go, Street fighter II, FIFA, ikaruga.

not your shitty rpg with mediocre stories that impress manchilds.

t. /v/

>>9709322
>game masterpieces are stuff like DOOM, Tetris, touhou, pacman, chess, shogi, go, Street fighter II, FIFA, ikaruga.

Jesus Christ I hate summer.

>>9709322
You're very stupid - I just want you to know that.

>>9709322

Games are older than literature. They used to be sacred affairs. Literature approaches, but does not achieve the passion that even children take for granted. You will never read a book that is as fulfilling or engrossing as even the simplest of childhood play. We read stories of conflict and competition, all according to a pattern established before history began. Yet both precedent and popular consensus prefer genuine sport to the fictive.

>>9709334
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMEjovSlyqs
there's entire university thesis being made on pacman retard.

It's a masterpiece in the medium history.

>>9709346
I already mentioned soccer and chess as examples.

>>9709336
>only modern AAA garbage is good
t. summer

>>9709353
games=/=sports=/=video games

Eat a cock

>>9709353

Chess these days is shit. I'm not talking about chess. I'm talking about real chess. The chess where you hardly know the rules and all sorts of gambits come into play, not this positional boring game for computers. Same with soccer. Who wants to watch a bunch of Swedes pass the ball back and forth? I'm talking about real soccer. The soccer where you kick the ball as hard as you can toward the kid you don't like. The soccer where everyone just dives and dogpiles and fights over the ball. The primal game of ball, played since time immemorial.

>>9709364
game = a systems that consist of rules with a win and lose state.

sports = games that are done competitivelly.

video games = games that are done on a digital medium.

what now?

>>9709368
you mean play?

we do play because is enjoyable.
is enjoyable because is how kids and animals learn skills to survive in the wild.

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>>9709368
>muh primal experiences
>surpassing literature
c'mon son.

>>9708934
I believe that video games can be a legitimate artform. We're definitely not there yet though. The main problems are:

1) A large portion of the gaming community doesn't want video games to be art and if they do, it's usually for the sake of signaling erudition in their hobbies more than anything else. The mass audience largely uses video games for leisure/common pleasure. This is to an extent true for all mediums distributed to the mass but video games are different in that its origins and history don't really explore video games from an artistic standpoint, but rather, a technological one. Literature, movies, music, and other mediums develop both of these in their history.

2) When developers are interested in more artistic explorations of video games, they still often take in account questions of gameplay and how "fun" it is, making whatever thing they wanted to express confused b/c of this awkward juxtaposition. It would be like if in Notes from the Underground, there's this random love triangle between, or in Madame Bovary, there's this Deus Ex Machina preventing her from killing herself and everything is hunky-dory. Both of these would be in direct opposition of the themes of the novels, or at best be superfluous. I find the gameplay and theme often in art games to be in direct contradiction with one another. The gamer community also doesn't help in focusing on the gameplay

3) I also feel that video games too often try and emulate the merits of other mediums and/or try to associate with intellectual topics in an attempt to gain status. I believe this to be misguided as the things idiosyncratic to video games are sufficient enough for the creation of new possibilities for art. I'm not saying that creators shouldn't borrow from other forms of entertainment but you should do it for the sake of creating something novel within the medium (See Tarkovsky and his transformation of alright sci-fi novels to great movies).

This being said, I think video games can reveal itself as an art and I think it's a pseud move to dismiss them as inherently vacuous. The medium definitely has long ways to go but it's not hopeless.

>>9709373
You are conflating medium. You forget the physicality of sports and somehow completely ignore the first half of "VIDEO game" and cherry pick words to assert yourself.

By your retard logic a book and the internet are the same.

>>9709380
he refers to the primal need for kids to play, you know animals as well play.

most adults also play, but they call it sports.

chess, shogi, go, xianqui are staples of high culture that survived for centuries.

not need to be angry.

>>9709384
I do think games should become their own thing and not copy movies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj-8C2misj0
have you played passage?

It's one example of games that try to convey meaning through gameplay.

some people claim it makes them cry, which is good I guess.

>>9709388
they don't surpass literature.

>>9709394
you're comparing diferent stuff.

if you mean telling a story?

No, literature is well, that's the entire point of literature.

have you played Dwarve fortress?
that's the kind of storytelling games can do that literature is unable to do.

>>9709398
i'm the one who freaking mentioned dwarf fortress earlier in the thread.
the primal experience of play does not come close to literature as a medium. the original idea of the thread, that games and anime and tv are just as able as great works of literature, is ludicrous.
whether or not it's demonstrably false, i couldn't say, what with the concept of personal preference, but as an art form, literature is an ultimately superior medium. chess i would argue is an experience of tension, excitement, loss, and triumph. i would say it's a fantastic experience, especially amateur levels, but is it on par with literature as an art medium? never. chess isn't art. it's a game, the way someone plays can be artistic in a sense, but otherwise, not at all.

>>9709353
You calling me summer after assuming the (wrong) reason for me calling you dumb. Nice one my man.

>>9709398
oh, and dwarf fortress, though fun, is still a chaotic playtoy that gives one at times hilarious results from the complexity of the simulation, but it never loses the jagged tinge of false reality, literature has many times smoothed that jagged line.

>>9709415
games are not art.
games are games.

most retard who thinks of games as art thinks of shitty hollywood rippoffs.

of course the average gamer is uneducated as fuck and only wants entertainment like a porn user.

But I'm talking in terms of aesthetical experience.

Games like the first silent hill or resident evil 2 are great examples of horror.

I assume you're not well read on videogames, I am not as well read on literature as the average lit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzS96auqau0
Check this, this kind of moment is where videogames excell and other art mediums are unable to compete.

Games are an interactive medium, therefore, they should be compared to interactive mediums, like street storytelling, street threater, improvisations, street comedians and sports (which are some kind of kinectic art like dancing).

They can as well do methaphor, but most game developers goes for the hollywood movie ripoff, but they can be as profound as literature, but in a diferent sense.

look how monopoly is a complete representation of american society.

>>9709014
>Vampire
Unfinished
>System Shock 2
Rushed, shitty RPG stuff, spooky robot plot is well acted but barely middling by /sffg/ standards.
>Deus Ex
Most overrated game of all time. It's a shittier Thief combined with a shittier Unreal but I'm supposed to forgive that because of the plot which is just a shopping list of conspiracy theories that branches but always makes you do the same thing so who cares?
>Dark Souls
A Dungeon Crawler that doesn't punish me for not making my own maps on physical paper can't not be shit. Otogi played better and King's Field was spoopier.
>Planet Escape: Torrent
If you unironically believe that this is a good game refer to >>9708939.
>Spec Ops
Pure homosexuality.
>The Witcher 3
Gothic but with stupid prancy combat and a glowing line to follow around so that you don't have to think.
>Silent Hill 2
Pretentious Resident Evil.

If you're going to shill this stupid shit at least do it right. Here's the real deal:
>Nier
>Metal Gear Solid 2
>Quake
>Mount & Blade: Warband
>Spiderman 2
>UFO: Enemy Unknown

>>9709428
>Check this, this kind of moment is where videogames excell and other art mediums are unable to compete.

>Skill and recognition of said skill are moments where art mediums are unable to compete
HURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

I didn't mean to go on that long, but honestly your stupidity floored me.

>>9709384
This post means nothing unless you define 'art'.

>>9709438
is an unexpected moment nobody has seen before.

is more like a historical sport moment.

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>>9709415

Well I'm the guy that brought up the primal experience of play, and I'm telling you nothing comes close to that, not literature, not procedurally generated world building, not organized sports or even alternative sports. The child is both author and participant. A hero. A world builder. All in one. Every single advance in gaming today has only been a paltry attempt to come closer to this one ideal. Open world game? The world was always open. Make your own adventure? Kids in Africa are doing that even ask we speak.

What we call literature does not live or breathe or exist in the imagination, but on stale paper, it is devoid, as Socrates would say, of substance. The act of reading is to be lead by hand, as the blind. The imaginative part of the brain kids exercise is the same part used to create religions. When the child declares "I am the king of the castle, the lord of all things" he is reprising a microcosm of civilization itself, the stories of childhood are the same as the stories of prehistoric man, the seed of all modern culture. For the defenders of literature to denounce play is no better than to stand before one's creator and slap Him upside the face.

>>9709444
Maybe to the people who saw it live. Honestly I don't find that video to be anywhere near as impressive as Michelangelo's David or any Shakespearean work which were also unexpected and unprecedented.

I agree that video games excel in putting a player in control of what occurs, but that doesn't mean a well played game = art. Nobody ever called a singular game of a sport art.

>>9709435
>UFO ENEMY UNKNOWN
I agree with this one but I'd say these are better than your other suggestions.
Aurora 4x
Dwarf Fortress
Poschengband
SpaceChem
SS13

>>9709428
>i assume you're not well read on videogames
i'm fairly sure i've played and enjoyed and researched more games than you have, people can have many passions, my friend.
as to your video, if you believe that experience is anything more than excitement shared between people, and can compare in any way with the depth of philosophy, the construction of narratives, the utter mastery of prose, then you're just wrong. sure primal urges can have depth, but they have no nuance once they attain that depth, there's no control over it, only an undulation of fury, joy, sorrow, etc. whereas once you have traversed into these realms with literature, you can see how these depths can be navigated, can be maintained, can be surpassed.
if you're not interacting with your literature, you're missing out. if you think the aesthetics of a video game are on par with the magnificent prose of masters, you have a mental deficiency.
you simplify american society to a board game that only has three or four dimensions, when there are generations upon generations of societal clashes, shifts, climaxes, and degredations contained within the pages of a single book.
you severely underestimate literature if you think it can't and hasn't already overwhelmed anything a videogame has to offer.

>>9709455
>implying that one's creator cannot be surpassed
look, i get it. you liked playing as a kid. it's just not as defined and perfected and mature as literature. if mere play could have sufficed our primitive brains, we would never have crafted language, never pushed the boundaries of human knowledge in physics, never have turned lead into gold. if simple play were enough, you wouldn't sit here typing to me. but it's not enough, and itnever will be, because primal play is just that, play. the play of a child, someone acting and learning, not yet able to comprehend what full maturity will bequeath.
i say you are stuck in childhood in some way, yearning for the freshness of youth. i can't blame you, but i personally prefer wine to your grapes.

>>9709469
poschengband is the tits. nice to see someone who likes the real roguelikes. I'm more of an ADOM OmegaRL man myself.

>>9709465
I define art as any activity that is the combination of an idea (human creativity) that uses a skill (developed through years of practices as it implies mastery) and serves a purpose, be it intelectual or emotional experience.

Therefore in my definition, there are some arts that I call kinectic arts, like sports, dancing, martial arts, gymnastics, calisthenics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JUyHL3v1QQ
There's not reason why dancing is an art and jogo bonito is not, if both employ the movement of the body as a way to express our inner creativity.


>>9709472
Well, you're still not have defined under what criteria are u using?

>Visual arts?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ly7Rd4OOB8I

Every working artists in the industry is a top tier artist as capable as renaissance painters.

An AAA game like GTA requires so much artistic work as basically an european cathedral.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFmArNoAVfw

>Music
I'm not well read on music, since I'm not a musician, but videogame music is already considered as equally important as film music.
There's plenty of concertos done by world wide orchestras
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lffvkiRDtIg

The only realm that literature can compete with games is the storytelling aspect, but I would agree is one of the more weak aspects of videogames.

But just recently in the last generations games have been able to start hiring hollywood writers in some AAA games.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fXE-E1hjKk

there's some interesting talks about storytelling in the industry.

Clearly games storytelling is an entire new experience and game developers are still trying to figure out ways to make game stories be good.

But I'm sure Uncharted is a way for games to emulate movies, and the last of us is clearly not crap I think.

There's also the indies, who are making new stuff, I remember undertale being kind of new for me in terms of storytelling.

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>>9709506
i'm not going to dignify this tone deaf response to my post with anything serious.
you. need. to. read. more.
atop mount lit i can't even see you.
even when i played games all day and night, i was still less of a moronic and blind hamster.
perhaps you are incapable, just as a man without a tongue can't taste souffle, and spits at it as though it were oatmeal.
stop trying to lower literature to the baseness of vidya. just stop.

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>>9709428
>games are not art.
>games are games.
Wrong.

>>9709487

> if mere play could have sufficed our primitive brains, we would never have crafted language, never pushed the boundaries of human knowledge in physics, never have turned lead into gold.

Now here's where you are wrong. Play causes us to define new terminology, hence play creates language. A child at play has intuitive understanding of all of Newtonian physics.

>never have turned lead into gold.

That's impossible to do, but the only reason gold is valued is because it's shiny and people want to compete for it, which is a form of play.

>someone acting and learning, not yet able to comprehend what full maturity will bequeath.

If you think that anyone, even the literate, has full comprehension or understanding, I will with full irony suggest you read Ecclesiastes.

The best literature can do is attempt to describe what already happens in reality. The beauty of reality is that we are already living it. In the circle of comprehension the end is much like the beginning. Try to remember these words in your diaper wearing old age as you play bingo, and find that in spite of decrepitude, the dementia has brought a return to long lost joy.

>>9709506
I wanted to reply to your post in a thoughtful manner, but then halfway through typing I ran out of characters and realized it was futile.

Let me shorten it: video games require a lot of time, effort, money, creativity, ideas, and planning to get made. That does NOT automatically make them art. For example, the average Hollywood comic book movie takes the same amount of effort to create but they are also not art. They are a product, a commercial to sell the number 2 or promote other products, extensions, tie in's, etc. Judging a work by how popular it is is not a representation of it's artistic merit.

>Every working artists in the industry is a top tier artist as capable as renaissance painters.
This is a wild misrepresentation. Imagine judging cave paintings against DeviantArt fanart. They are entirely different and hold a FUNDAMENTALLY different value to humanity.

You are a lost mind of a consumer who has been duped into thinking there is real value in the dollar figure. You can't even properly define art without using ambiguous terms like "serves a purpose". True art serves NO purpose it simply makes people strive for greatness subconsciously.

>>9709526
>The best literature can do is attempt to describe what already happens in reality.
You're confusing the finger with the moon.

>>9709521
they're diferent mediums that serve diferent purposes retard.

if you mean that games lack the deepness in terms of metaphor, I'm not sure it depends on the artist themselves.

99% of literature is garbage.

I read notes from underground (dostoyesky) and it was a shitty story about some XIX century neet loser and how he has USI and his empty victory agains some Chad he never met.

Totally garbage and people regard that trash as the best of russian literature.

I read Romeo and Juliet and is a nice and simple story about a tragic love, with excellent wordplay.

But people seem to dicksuck it because of muh nice prose and epic bible references.

I've read some tales from Julio Cortazar and were trash about some guy vomiting bunnies and some twin couple about some voices they hear in the house that scare them.

And they're regarded as literature masterpieces.

And poethry is mostly trying to imitate painting with words, is pretty pictures but nothing deep.

>but muh bible, muh Dante.
and I've been unimpressed by them, cool wordplays, cool cultural reference to ancient romen and greece, nice stories, but nothing to suck my dick about.

And yes, literature includes erotica, romance, harlequin novels and self published amazon crap.

So what?
Are they not literature?

>>9709520
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-lead-can-be-turned-into-gold/
first off, check that out, you've been left behind, grandpa.
second, if you're trying to turn play into some sort of universal aspect of humanity that cannot be surpassed by anything, then go off and complete a philosophical treatise on that. it's frankly ridiculous, and shows that you're not serious. play is fundamental to a lot of human life, but to pretend that it can't be surpassed, to pretend that it's the end all be all of man, is shortselling the fuck out of man. now, be my guest, use sophistry as you wish, convince everyone in the world that play is the soul of man.
whatever. you're just playing a game. that's what you want to do, and that's fine. but i refuse to play it with you. i want something more. something better than play. and there's plenty out there.

>>9709540
this was meant for you.
>>9709526

>>9709532
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWEt7DdUTaU

not all games are done to make money retard.
look up indie games and art games.

>>9709506
Video games mirroring movies is not art nor artistic. It is actually more limiting to the medium. Imagine if photography was limited to only recording 2D works.

The truth is that video games are (for the most part) NOT art because they have yet to do anything better than any other medium. In case you never knew, choose your own adventure books already exist and do things that several AAA games copy, only they did it first and better.

Graphics, music, scripts, reflex training, everything has already been done better in other mediums; why is it that Video Games deserve the praise instead?

>>9709538
i say again. you can't taste without a tongue. i would feel pity, but i was told to beware.

>>9709546
>all games are comercial AAA trash

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkJ8C1MEKLs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuOObGjCA7Q

>has never read a book on game design

>>9709549
I've read literature and I'm unimpress.

unless you mean philosophy, but philosophy isn't necesarelly literature per se.

like I said, nobody stops a game developer making a game about philosophy topics.

It's like complaining painting can't do deep philosophical ideas.

Again, argueing about entire mediums diferent goals.

>>9709538
>t. i've read five books, all literature is trash
Romeo and Juliet is a play, you dipshit.

>>9709545
Ah yes the quintessential "art" game. So "Artistic" they have to market themselves as that or else people would not play them at all since they are so boring.

Being "meta" or having a slightly ironic twist does not make games art. A shoestring budget does not make art. Copying other much better works does not make art.


>>9709551
Sorry I hurt your feelings so badly, but I never even said that. You must be a very insecure person too heavily invested in video games to not understand what I am saying.

>>9709557
I've read Don Quixote, and 100 years of solitude and those are the best in my native language.

Am not allowed to speak about my native language capabilities?

>>9709555
painting literally deals with philosophical ideals constantly. Jesus fucking hopscotch dogshitting Christ.
>>>/v/

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>>9709540
>“It would cost more than one quadrillion dollars per ounce to produce gold by this experiment,"

>>9709563
>never have turned lead into gold.

>That's impossible to do

>>9709559
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6tFoIUyOdU

super mario 64 is another masterpiece.
Is not good enough because is like a disney cartoon and is for kids?


>>9709562
Metal gear deals with philosophical ideas as well.

You're comparing diferent shit retard.
Games are about interactivity.

Look up chess if you want a game that is a cultural enterprise comparable to the best of literature.

>>9709567
sorry i have autism and its hard for me to admit when i am wrong

>playing games for the plot

games, especially now with the rise VR, are experiences not narratives

>>9709572
>Mario is a masterpiece
>why is that?
>because

Whoa man I guess you stumped me :^)

>>9709579
>disney is not art
wew lads.

>>9709587
You've already lost. Go back to /v/

>>9709532

>his is a wild misrepresentation. Imagine judging cave paintings against DeviantArt fanart. They are entirely different and hold a FUNDAMENTALLY different value to humanity.

Yet here you are, a caveman judging cave paintings.

>>9709595
So you've given up?

>>9709572
>ook up chess if you want a game that is a cultural enterprise comparable to the best of literature.

this brings up a good point, games by their very definition are competitive, you're always playing against someone whether it's a human or AI. it's like saying can soccer ever be literature? do u think anyone on a soccer forum is stupid enough to suggest such a thing? but here we have to get the occasional /v/ pleb wandering in asking nonsense

>>9709592
I guess beethoven nine symphony is not art because is simply intrumental music and don't dabble in philosophy.

and yet games are at least more art than whatever garbage is being sold in the fine arts industry scam or whatever garbage comes from the academia in music today.

>>9709573
so do i. play is integral to life, and in some ways you are right. i think it must be balanced though, there is a time for play and a time for seriousness, not to simplify life. i get your position. i do. i just think it's dangerous to try to make foundational statements of life. it detracts from the genuine complexity of it all.
>>9709572
whatever man. Pacman is greater than a freak Joyce Shakespeare monster's book. happy? fuck you're retarded.

>>9709603
>and yet games are at least more art than whatever garbage is being sold in the fine arts industry scam or whatever garbage comes from the academia in music today.

HAHA OH WOW, I think your brain broke. Just stick to /v/ kid, hope you have a kick ass summer!

>>9709601
games are about gameplay mechanics.

you can use those gameplay mechanics to mean whatever you want.


>>9709606
you're comparing diferent shit retard.

you're literally saying that a song is the same as a drawing and somehow one is more deep than the other.


>>9709609
>4"3 and jhon cage is more art than final fantasy XV

CTRL+F Metro

Metro series

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaG_eP_dP6I

>>9709613
Metro is nothing but a worse STALKER ripoff. You've only worsened the stance on video games when all they do is cannibalize each other while giving themselves credit.

>>9709618
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mU3nNT4rcFg

>lit retards think only AAA trash is being made in the medium

>>9709611
nope. literature, painting, sculpture, music, all are greater than vidya. so much so that each of these things acting in concert are required to make vidya. vidya is not its own platform of art, but rather a derivative of the core arts, a freak commercial child, a creation that is less than the sum of its parts.

CTRL+F Morrowind
ok...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8EIDkMWoUs

>>9709624
Wow you've finally shown an actually artistic game to prove your argument. I'm impressed. I honestly thought you were going to point at the Twitch stream whores for money as a nod to the "starving artist" trope.

That being said, you didn't show that Metro is better than the work it apes.

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>>9709635
>>9709639
I'm going to sleep.
Read this book.

simply google art games.

>>9709643
art games didn't turn up anything.

"art" games did however.

>>9709643
sweet dreams.
pleb.

>>9709618
try looking at the game by itself
every book is based on another too

>>9709635
i almost wish he had argued with this, i played the devil's advocate and said
>but muh opera
to which i replied that a combination of two core arts can be closer to its core parts, but still lack the depth that mastery focused on a single art can convey. the focus in vidya is spread thinly across several different arts acting in unison. there are inevitably clashes in the masters taking part, as their expressions are used to convey a theme, say. one artist may have a vision of the theme that reconciles with ultimate depth, but when combined with another artist's vision, there is a clash. let alone the two arts embodied in one artist, the inner turmoil interferes with the theme's conveyance.

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>>9709678
>IT'S OK TO RIPOFF WORKS AND CLAIM SUPERIORITY BECAUSE EVERYTHING IS ALREADY A RIPOFF RIGHT???

>>9709681
You really think someone who plays video games would understand that?

These are kids who have never truly appreciated art. They can't recognize the depth of the human soul, they have to be told it in a cutscene before they shoot the heads off of several zombies.

>>9709684
>he can only value original works

prove to me that everything you consider original wasn't based on something else.

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>>9709693
i play video games though, and i wrote it...
*sniff*

>>9709597

For an advocate of literature, you have remarkably low comprehension.

>>9709697
>prove to me that everything you consider original wasn't based on something else.
>everything
Really? EVERYTHING?? Don't get me wrong, a lot of stuff is derivative (if we take the broadest strokes and forget that the internet didn't exist past the last 30 years) but I ask you to give me ONE (1) video game that actually is original that isn't just a ripoff of other mediums.

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>>9709708
>t. /v/idiot who won't even respond to the metoeric knockout blow that was just dealt to him
>tfw it was so bad i had to argue with myself to make myself feel better about his inadequacy

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>>9709567

I had actually typed a few sentences a while back on the subject of fusion and fission, and how lead is probably a poor choice for such a transition, but I didn't want to derail the discussion into alchemy, which as it seems has happened regardless. Hats off to you, I'm going to bed.

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>>9709714

>he thinks there are only two people ITT

>>9709711
>no u

So you're actually telling me I'm right that you should judge a work by itself primarily before discarding it as a ripoff. Two stories with similar themes aren't a ripoff and not even necessarily based on each other. The themes, the genre already existed, the authors merely added to it independently.

And just so you know I can name video games that weren't ripoffs or derivatives, because I don't use the definition that you use. Every creative work is based on something, that's the nature of creativity and inspiration.

>>9709724
oh, my bad friend. silly me.

>>9709443
Works that interpret the world through a novel perspective that are inherently non-instrumental beyond introspection. I suppose there is an argument is that it could be something more broader but I believe it would be pretty useless as a coherent unitary definition then.

Anyways, my post was more establishing the difficulties the medium might run into in it's artistic aspirations rather than saying video games can't be art b/c of these difficulties. Essentially, It is definitely a weaker medium than others right now in terms of its insights since a lot of it is designed primarily for leisure and a lot of themes that video games do epouse are derivative and don't synthesize with the unique tools the medium brings.

man, without that main antagonist, this thread spiraled out of control really quickly.
that being said, alchemy would be a better topic for sure.

>>9709728
>Every creative work is based on something, that's the nature of creativity and inspiration.
Yet video games are still young and cannibalize each other (as I said before). Only a truly commercial endeavor blatantly rips off another (related) work to try to emulate monetary success. I'm not saying Video Games cannot be art, only that a VAST MAJORITY of games are not.

In this specific case Metro took an excellent game and made it much worse in every aspect. But it improved the graphics and received a lopsided amount of praise. You can say it offered a "different experience" or whatever other excuse, but as far as truly creating something different it failed.

For example, look at the discrepancy between Elder Scrolls Morrowind and Skyrim. One is objectively much worse in every way (except graphically) yet Skyrim is treated like the second coming of Christ to video games. Why is that if not totally for commercial reasons?

>>9709750
>as far as truly creating something different it failed.
Because that's not the reason it was created. Just like The Elder Scrolls weren't created to emulate the Lord of the Rings.

I'm reminded of The Recognitions for some reason.

>>9709766
>that's not the reason it was created
This is the root of my argument. Why exactly are (modern) video games created? I can almost guarantee they aren't created to awaken and inspire the human soul.

It's almost like a majority of video games are made to hang a price tag off of.

>>9709776
They're fun desu. Ever played a video game? I want to make one myself. I write too and as a game nerd I felt inspired to make a video game myself. I have no money or a studio or progamming skills so it is all amatuerish. And that's how things start: small and insignificant. It's the dedication of the creators that decides their work becomes well known. Look at Rick and Morty. It started as literal youtube poop, a rip off of Back to the Future, if you will.

Yeah, there are a lot of people who don't understand this, and they are only interested in money so they create garbage that sells because of the hype. It's a commercial shark pool and that's not even bad because it means even small ideas have a chance to become big. This even happens in the literary work. You can publish garbage if you can manage to make it sell.

That industry doesn't destroy the merit on which it stands: creativity. That can't be bought.

>>9709788
If only video games had more creativity

>>9709813
>there's 10 different video games for every idea not even counting their ripoffs
A man can dream.

>>9709813
it's almost like it's am inferior art medium that destroys itself or something.

literature is OVER

>>9709961
no it isn't, it's just waiting for me to go back to meth after the civil war.

>>9708934
because bait is bait

>>9709353

I'm just going to take the opportunity to post the Pacman Dossier. It's *amazing*.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3938/the_pacman_dossier.php?print=1

>>9708934
I semi-agree, I would still rate literature as having the highest peaks when comparing narrative.

But anyone who willingly limits themselv to one or two mediums is a total fucking idiot. Same goes for anyone who avoids mediums out of insecurities about looking stupid.

>>9709014
Incredbly bog standard /v/ recommendations, desu. Anyway, here's where the /lit/ vs. /v/ comparison fails - literature has without a shadow of a doubt, produced far better stories than any of these. So in that field, /lit/ wins easily. But a videogame is more than the story, you also have the gameplay, the design, everything that makes the game what it is, and in this case the /lit/ vs /v/ comparison also falls flat, because they're simply not comparable mediums in this regards.

It'd be like comparing literature and music, you'd have to reduce it down to the lyrics, which tells you nothing about the music at all.

>>9709681
>>9709635
I think the fault here is the idea that video games are simply an amalgation of different arts, like if you simply mash a couple of mediums together together you get video games. In fact most of video games discussion (especially when it comes to the "are they art"-discussion), fail to mention the single thing that makes video games unique and what really is the single most important thing: the gameplay. Maybe because it's a vague concept, or because it differs so much between games, but trying to explain video games without it is like discussing music with someone who has never heard a song in his life. I know, I know, it sounds super prentetious, but if you don't understand the player-game-world interaction and instead insist of reducing everything down to the narrative and story, there's really no point in discussing the artistic quality of video games at all. How could it, if you aren't talking about the most essential thing?

Also I do think video games are unparalled in their ability for immersion. The human brain is pretty easily tricked, and even if the story, graphics, voice acting etc is lacking, a well-designed game will still make us feel like we're part of the world. Sure, the narrative in the Witcher is no Moby-Dick, but I was still incredibly engaged in the world and the story.

But really, I honestly don't give a shit what level of art video games will be assigned - worrying if your chosen medium is cool enough for the intellectuals is a fucking pathetic thing to do. I can read all the /lit/-core I want and still enjoy my video games, nobody gives a shit.

>>9709384

Best post in the thread.

Not sure if you'll agree but one of the best games I've played in the past few years is The Talos Principle. Even the creators admit that the gameplay (the puzzles) have nothing to do with the overarching story and philosophical ruminations that the game rests on. That's often the issue games face - that gameplay literally does nothing to better the more profound aspects of the game. Being in control is a unique element that needs to be there to make a game a game, but design is often ruined by built up pre-conceived beliefs about what the player should be doing.

That said, there have been some fairly good games recently: Soma, Everybody's Gone to the Rapture, Kentucky Route Zero. All of those have ideas unique to the medium and aren't held back by the need to be conventional.

Stuff like Deus Ex: Mankind Divided absolutely is.

>>9710367

>In fact most of video games discussion (especially when it comes to the "are they art"-discussion), fail to mention the single thing that makes video games unique and what really is the single most important thing: the gameplay

I'd agree but Proteus comes up in that argument a lot and there's nothing to that but gameplay and art direction.

>But really, I honestly don't give a shit what level of art video games will be assigned - worrying if your chosen medium is cool enough for the intellectuals is a fucking pathetic thing to do. I can read all the /lit/-core I want and still enjoy my video games, nobody gives a shit.

Neither do I but you surely you can admit there's a difference between games you liked or enjoyed and games that have something more to them which offer a deeper experience than just immersion? I thought that's where your post was going, tbqh.

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>>9709506
kiddo, just because the weeb kitsch that partly foms your vidya takes hours to draw does not make it on par with renaissance painters, your delusion reminds me that of metalheads who point to yngwie malmsteen and say DURR METHUL IS TEH NEW CLASSICAL

>>9708934

tfw I read so much I will never clear my videogame backlog

I have had Okami, Metroid Prime 2 and 3, Wonderful 101, Xenoblade X, Zack and Wiki, all unplayed for years. And a shitload of Steam games.
Reading just seems a better time investment. Modern games are very long.

>>9709265
>>9709256
>>9709235
>>9709223
SONYKEKS ON SUICIDE WATCH

I thought i was on /lit/. This is worse than what you would even find on /v/

>>9710375
Honestly can't speak much about Proteus since I've never played it. From a glance, it seems charming enough, but I would hardly call it amazing. Seems more of a case of it being the first of its kind in a very young medium. But, I would say that the kind of experience it does offer could not be found in any other medium. This would also be the time to make the obvious point that many video games are simply terrible, and the majority of them mediocre.

>difference between games you liked or enjoyed and games that have something more to them which offer a deeper experience than just immersion?

To me, I'd immersion is pretty much the apex of gaming. It can be different kinds - narrative, world, character, gameplay, etc. Maybe it's just a fancy way of talking about how engaged I am in the game. That being said, I do make a difference between games like say, Spelunky, Dark Souls, DMC, SMB - here my enjoyment comes partly from the challenge and getting better at the game, and also from appriciating the game design that makes everything work. To me, that's more "games as pure entertainment". Then we have games like Witcher, Deus Ex, Morrowind, Grim Fandango, where my enjoyment comes more from me engaging with the setting, the characters and the world in general. Not sure where I'm going with this anymore, but I think every game that gave me a "deeper experience" was also a game I was deeply immersed in.

>>9710371
Good post. I fucking loved the Talos principle. It's also hilarious that the same guys made Serious Sam, the difference in gameplay and style between the two coulnd't be bigger.

>>9708934
>Sure, the majority of these mediums are bad

They really aren't. They're just different imo.

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>>9709322

>>9710367
immersion in a novel is something you're incapable of doing. doesn't mean it's not of the highest quality and beyond that of vidya. separate yourself from everything one of these days and fully devote yourself to some phenomenal literature, and i assure you the world you will leave afterwards will be more a part of you than any VR headset or Abzu can offer.
Regarding your idea that gameplay itself is the artistic element of vidya, well, i would have to respond that the technical and rote order of moving forward and swinging a sword, or countering some specific frame of a wind up, or ordering pink dots in a row to watch them disappear, or moving left or right minutely to drive around, etc., are all inconsequential. they are quite literally tossing a ball into the air and catching it repetitively. they have the same merit, accomplish the same goal, and are equally useless. the gameplay is the vehicle through which arts act in concert.
pong, for example, was this ball being thrown and caught. ad infinitum. if you think the development of ball play is aligned with the arts in any way, you are sorely mistaken and must read more.
a game is not art. it can carry cultural weight, but it is a game. it is nothing more, and never will be. if you don't want to get caught up comparing art with games and think it silly, then delete your worthless comment.

>>9711083
I strongly disagree. The gameplay at its core is how you interface and interact with the world presented in the game. Sure, I could boil it down to a few simple button-presses, but that would be ignoring the context . It'd be like analysing a book based on individual sentences. While it might hold true for basic games like pong, it falls apart pretty quickly when cosindering more complex games. I'm not going to spend all that much energy convincing you, but I will say this: There are experiences and interactions that are literally impossible to achieve with literature, that you can reach with say, music, or video games. Limiting yourself to a few things because of their intellectual superiority is narrow-minded, to say the least.

>>9709206
Literature is actually a really shitty medium.
Explain please.

>made for brainlets who can't understand nonfiction
This doesn't even make sense. Either way I read both fiction and nonfiction.

>homosexuals who want to feel smart.
Sure, but also I enjoy reading.

>>9711121
>limiting yourself to the best things is narrow minded
so be it. put shit in, get shit out.
Interactivity with the world brought to you by literature is only limited by you and your imagination. the rote deliberacy of pressing buttons for your kicks is acedia at its finest. it takes effort to be absorbed, to interact with your author and the worlds they show you. you think you can't toy around with every aspect of literature, you think you aren't free to enjoy every fucking piece and even write your own work? the fulfillment, the depth of emotion, philosophy, culture, depravity, righteousness, all wound up in a single pen, and you want to talk about how moving an avatar around in a polygonal space is even remotely on par with the direct transference of thought between the minds of those who could never dream of communicating without it? it's a fucking joke. vidya is a fucking joke.
but be my guest, Mario Party 19 will surely be the point that games will be truly considered the greatest of the arts

>>9711340
Hey, no need for the vitriol, I'm sure can all agree to have a civil debate as the "intellectuals" we are, right? In any case, I find the idea of claiming one medium and then smugly proclaiming yourself to have found the apex of all human endavours to be ridiculous.

In fact, you might as well continue that logic, and declare that only ficiton truly communicates art. Then, of course, only certain genres, and certainly only by one author. In fact, just read this one book, no need to broaden your scope of the world. But I think we're both pretty set in our opinions here, so I'm calling it quits from my end at least.

Also, I don't mean this in any sort of attempt at a comeback or smug insult or any such thing, but do you have any book recommendations? You're certainly passionate about it, and I'd love to get some recommendations.

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I love vidyagames but it's fucking awful to compare them with literature. The medium offers a completely different form of pleasure (interactivity, memorable level design, immersion), not even a full-on text adventure can be seen as some kind of replacement.

>>9711340
>Direct transference of thought

Haha this is fucking sad. Language isn't some magic window that lets you peer directly at the reality being referenced newfag

>>9711615
i don't really have any recommendations, to be honest. The Recognitions made me question my atheism for the first time, that Moby Dick has the single greatest prose I have ever read as a man, that Dante was a mind blowing genius, that the count of monte cristo when i read it in prison quite literally changed my life, that Turgenev's Huntsman Sketches is and always will be the greatest russian text i have ever read, and on and on. I've been in a rut lately, so any suggestions i would have aren't much worth it. I've been forcing myself to read lesser foundational works or culturally relevant works, instead of reading the pure geniuses, and since I can't help but to emulate what I read, I end up having to sift through countless trashy emotions and incomplete styles, mangled themes, and plebeian philosophies.
It just infuriates me to think that people can compare video games with literature, i have been a gamer all my life, pored and researched indie titles, obscurities, retros and AAA titles. I have seem the top of Mt. Vidya, and all i could see was the base of the greatest mountain in existence, Mt. Literature.

>>9711667
tongueless curr telling me what is bitter and what is sweet.

pissant.

>>9708934
oyasumi punpun is a great example, although there's not much that can reach it's level of quality in manga besides maybe monster, 20th century boys, and homoculus

>>9711683
- rupi kaur

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>>9709538
>And poethry is mostly trying to imitate painting with words, is pretty pictures but nothing deep.

/v/ everyone.

>>9711340
Lmao. I always wonder how people like this will react when they finally realize literature is a dead medium and it's never coming back. Will they take it as well as Bloom?

>>9712443
if literature is dead, it is because we have failed it. at least i have the past. there are plenty of books for me and the rest of my life.

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I can't believe so many of you are wasting so much time on lit when you can read mind bending perception altering non-fiction.
I sometimes literally trip balls just from the concepts in some non-fiction books.

>>9709549
You think it's possible to grow a tongue?

>>9712654
it doesn't sync with the metaphor, but i think so.
main thing is patience, i would imagine. also perserverance. maybe a splish splash of openmindedness.

>>9709014
Did you mean Ni No Kuni, Persona, and Final Fantasy XII?

>>9711723
>what is lone wolf and cub, ashita no joe, berserk

Why THE FUCK people compare videogames to literature in the first place. It's like saying an apple is better than a car. Every medium, everything has some value. One can read Shakespeare and then go play Bloodborne. So what? Why THE FUCK poeple compare these things.

>>9714010

>Why THE FUCK people compare videogames to literature in the first place

Well, they're not comparing them to form; they're comparing them to elitist principles by which they believe literature is definitive. How long have you been on this board? Obviously if we had any fucking sense we'd be comparing games to movies. Hell, even theatre would be more comparable than literature.*

*Modern 3D games at least.

>>9714072
the problem is that these """"""""""""""""""principles""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" don't exist. Every medium has its peaks. Even most literature sucks. There are videogames I could easily call masterpieces (Super metroid)

>>9708934
I quite literally can't bring myself to do any of those things anymore. Literature has ruined by brain for it.

>>9708934
you're the reason why
just don't come back here, we don't want to hear your shit opinions
you've probably never read a hard literature and is trying to judge literature as a whole, as if you understood it, as if your opinion worth a shit