St. Aquinas has never been refuted...but you're still an atheist?

I'm not an atheist, but there's no reason to think God is your best friend or even cares about you specifically. I believe in more of a Plotinus type All-Is-One God.

Even Aristotle realized this

>>9644469
Aristotle got a lot wrong.

>>9644424
Consistent logic != truth

>>9644518
It is impossible to reconcile the idea of a eternal, unchanging being with the idea that this being cares about individual persons.

>>9644528
This! Populism festers in the gap between logic and reality. Here's an example.

P1: OP is a fag.
P2: Fags likes penises, ever wich way.
C1: We should bukkakke OP.

Even if P1 is true, then P2 doesn't follow. And P2 doesn't have to be true. There are actually fags that are monogamous. There are glory hole queens that doesn't like surprise dicks. Therefore this is correct logic, but it has nothing to do with reality.

>>9644623
>Populism festers in the gap between logic and reality.

Pretty good anon, pretty good.

>>9644424
Savage post, op

>>9644424
Do you care or is it just a shitpost?

>>9644424
Yes he has. The only issue is that religious people are contrarian morons.

>>9644858
Provide one of the refutations please.
If anything Godel just reinforced Aquinas

I think Aquinas's Third Way is quite convincing, although it must be reiterated that he was not the one who originally came up with the argument (see Aristotle and al-Ghazali). Not sure about his other arguments.

>>9644876
The only issue is I'd only agree with Aquinas if I'd admit the figure of the Christ is first and foremost symbolic, he isn't more materially the son of God than any of us is. God has no intents for us, he'd just be causality and the "great cosmic plan" that unfolds everywhere through the laws of physics.

>>9644892
Surely you can't be this retarded, this is bait, right?

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>>9644469
>Being a Moralistic therapeutic deist
wew

>>9644424
Aquinas is a spook

>>9644531
Dont see why not.

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moralfag

>there's no such thing as an immoral or moral book, only well-written or badly written.

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>>9645718
Every important european figure in history is a spook, white boi. Get woke.

>>9644424
I've always been fine with making leaps of faith, it's nothing to be shy about. Catholic here.

Conditioning makes people unable to realize they're taking a dogma for granted one way or another, and that there's nothing inherently bad to our respective biases.

>>9644469
>there's no reason to think
>divine revelation
literally refuted in question 1 article 1 of the summa

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>>9646432

That's what immoral people keep saying.....

>>9644469
So where do miracles come from?

>>9644424
I beg to differ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3yKxvW9yNA

>>9647463
Hahaha "I'm smarter than Thomas Aquinas" I literally laughed out loud

>>9647463
I just went down a whole rabbit whole of watching his videos and in his latest one, he is like a scruffy internet degenerate with one of those tourist tassel hats talking about how "You think people judge you just because you're a woman?" I was cracking up. God Youtube culture is amazing.

>>9647455
rainbows

>>9647478
Compared to the video of him fucking his own ass with a banana that's not all that bad.

>>9644623
The backlash against "populism" as something pejorative is nothing but a divide and conquer by the powers that be. Nothing showcases this better than Clinton-Trump election.

>>9644528
this hurts me. many ways to explain the world, can resonate deeply with some need, can have startling verisimilitude - but be unprov'd

>>9647483
>fucking his own ass with a banana

Compared to the video of him pouring hot oil over his micropenis that's not all that bad.

>>9644623
terrible example
idiot

>>9644424
>St. Aquinas has never been refuted
God doesn't exist.

Refuted.

>>9644623
wrong.

>>9647590

Or with him having sex with a mentally challenged transsexual. Love is love bro what two people do in their own bedroom is none of your concern.

circular logic does not prove truths

>>9647625
fuck off common shilth..

reminder to follow sodomite orders

>>9647614
Not sure if this is bait but this is basically New Atheism in a nutshell.

>>9646485
Not sure if retarded or stupid.

Why did C.S. Lewis attempt shitty apologetics when Aquinas's work still stands?

It seems like such a stupid way to make oneself seem.. stupid

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Actually, modern philosophy from Bacon onwards refutes scholasticism pretty thoroughly, it just wasn't done in a systematic manner, but every proper intellectual realized that the old paradigm just wasn't working anymore. For instance, natural law ethics and aristotelian teleology are a joke in light of evolutionary biology.

>>9647683
and look where that took us! Europe imploding right now. How amazing!

Apparently Aquinas was concerned that one argument wasn't gonna do it so he figured that out of five one was bound to stick.

>>9647683
>Contemporary social issues exist because we abandoned medieval worldviews
Absolute genius analysis, 10/10, have you written a book yet?
kys

>>9647693
you fuckers really love to cast yourselves as prophets of the apocalypse

>>9647711
Britain is literally a paki-muslim battleground with weekly terror attacks. God bless Scientism.

If everything needs a cause then what caused god? BOOM

>>9647683
>natural law ethics and aristotelian teleology are a joke in light of evolutionary biology.
replacing spooks by other spooks is being smart

>>9647683
>natural law ethics and aristotelian teleology are a joke in light of evolutionary biology.

I didn't know evolution dealt with oughts. Hume BTFO

Believing in some kind of God is justifiable and understandable
But how does any justify believing in a specific doctrine like Christianity?
Can I have a quick rundown?

>>9647693
>we should cling to false beliefs of the past because countries "implode" without them
No, Europe is not OH MY FUCKING GOD IMPLODING!!!!11 you fucking American.

>>9647667
C.S. Lewis has nice human-level wisdom. I know his arguments aren't very sturdy, but his writing has a real charm and verisimilitude. Can't help but be glad he wrote what he did.

>>9647727
Well, the best arguments are those by historical traditions, mainly Catholicism. The doctrinal persistence and sheer unlikeliness of Church Christianity lends credence to some kind of intervention that kept it alive through so many years.
Not extremely convincing desu, but when I was attracted to Catholicism for a while it's the only strand that makes any sense. In order to be a Protestant, you have to believe the very earliest Church Fathers were wrong about fundamental doctrines like the eucharist and papal primacy.

>>9647736
European Union is literally in a crisis because they keep importing biologically equal shitskins and mudslimes on the basis that we are all humans lmao

They literally cannot and refuse to allow any other metaphysical argument here that would talk about culture or heritage.

Its all going down the drain

>>9647745
I can understand being drawn to Christianity from a cultural standpoint, understanding it brings communities together and helps create some semblance of a communal moral standard, one we are seeing eroding today etc.
But literally believing that in the resurrection story, that a piece of bread is the literal body of Christ or that the Pope is anything but a political figure-head(especially now that we have historical records to look back on shitty/degenerate popes) etc.
Is there any intelligent or compelling reason to believe any of this?
I used to be a "le skydaddy" atheist but I've come to admire Christianity from a cultural standpoint seeing how things are going but I still can't bring myself to believe any of the stuff even if I'd like to participate in it all.

>>9647758

Yeah I'll just sum everything up in two or three sentences and then we can have a discussion.

>>9647745
Also divorce, confession, authority, nature of tradition, salvation, justification and just about everything else.

>>9647758
>But literally believing that in the resurrection story, that a piece of bread is the literal body of Christ or that the Pope is anything but a political figure-head(especially now that we have historical records to look back on shitty/degenerate popes) etc.
Not really that hard to believe if the basic premises are in place desu anon
t. nonbeliever

>>9647758
>Is there any intelligent or compelling reason to believe any of this?
Is there any intelligent or compelling reason not to?

>>9647765
Huh?
English is not my first language, try explain again please.

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>>9647748
It's imploding because neoliberal capitalism brought about precisely those effects that were foreseen by its critics for decades. Conservatives as a whole have been living in a Tatcherite illusion that radical market deregulation is somehow consistent with conservative family values, which is ridiculous. If you believe a reactionary surge of ethno-nationalism is going to fix deep-rooted problems in the economic structure that underpins the global order, you are an idiot.

But then again, we're posting on a website where people genuinely believe that the emigration of cheap labour that keeps productivity going in the rapidly de-industrializing western countries, is actually all masterminded by a jewish plot going back to ancient times, so... fuck it.

>>9647768
Is there an intelligent or compelling reason not to believe that a piece of bread is the literal body of a man that died 2000 years ago?
Yes?

>>9644424
>>>9644469
So where do miracles come from?

>Science can't still explain something about the world
>It's a miracle
Be patient my dude

>>9647772
I was not even first to mention ethno-nationalism. I'm just saying this believe in Scientisim and liberalism has generated a fucking shitshow and Christianity, culture and heritage aren't allowed as viable arguments in Europarlament or national parliaments as counter-arguments towards this straight up economic, destructive, scientific thinking (which it is, since hard econ is maths, so liberals think its the ultimate truth).

>>9647772

What are the conservative family values that market deregulation is inconsistent with?

>>9647770
If your basic premise is that an omnipotent God exists and (insert lots of elements from Plato and Aristotle) it's not hard at all. You just have a problem pretending to accept the premises for the sake of the discussion.

>>9647778
Before we continue with this discussion I've got to ask If your conflating intelligent or compelling with scientific and rational.

>>9647770
Basically this >>9647783
In the Gospels Jesus even acknowledges the superficial absurdity of the Eucharistic teaching. The entire New Testament is filled with unintuitive ironies meant to illuminate some deeper idea of God's transcendent nature. The idea of God as a small, crying child, or a piece of bread, or a lamb directly parallels Jesus' sayings about the first will be last and the last will be first etc. The more I think about it the way the Gospels' Jesus turns the entire order of the world on its head and inside out is pretty genius. God is not so limited in his power as to need to be a mighty king or conqueror - he achieves his eternal victory dying a whipped and tortured criminal on the cross.

>>9647772
>Ancient times

Not really, nor do people believe that ALL or even most Jews are involved in any "plot".

But Jews, similar to Africans in America self-segregated, networked, built their own communities, had their own cultures as a result of historical oppression in their respective states. etc

Many Jews are still angry, and detest anything to do with European/White nationalism or identity and seek to erode it.
And as a result of Jews above-average intelligence and networking capabilities, many are in positions of extreme power and you see them act out their anti-white identity politics in either high positions of academia, as financiers who engage in "philanthropy" on the side or in media.

There really isn't anything conspiratorial or crazy about it.

>>9644623
/thread desu senpai

>>9647795
>>9647772

Cont: It's also why Jews found the radical-egalitarianism of Communism so appealing and as a result, near monolithically supported it.(similar to how African Americans near monolithically support Leftism/Democrats) This of course gained the Ire of social-conservatives/traditionalists and ultimately Hitler in Germany.

>>9647802
>Jews monolithically supported Communism
what did he mean by this?
I would say that many disaffected secular Jews did, but still most Jews were secluded religious/bourgeois Germans, not to mention being financiers

>>9647783
>>9647793
Yes I find the idea of an omnipotent being not an idea to be easily discarded.
But I see the bible as just ancient mans attempt at understanding the nature of that being
In my opinion, that is the only reasonable position.
Seeing people who believe literally in Bible stories just seems indefensible and at that point and is only a matter of "faith".
You either believe it or you don't, you can't really argue for it from any basis or foundation like natural science and there is no real debate or discussion to be had.

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>>9647782
The whole structure of the traditional family is inconsistent with a neoliberal market economy. You can extract significantly more surplus if every member of the family has to be a wage worker and barely able to support their children. With a proper materialist analysis, it's obvious that capitalism brings about only those radical changes which are supportive of its continual reproduction. Therefore, you have the whole feminist revolution and the involvement of women in public life on equal footing - which, to be clear, are obviously positive things which have destroyed long-standing forms of domination. But, think about it, if you have a working father who earns enough to support the whole family on a wage, and a family where both spouses have to work for a similar amount, which is better for the profit motive?
Traditional religious structures are also less and less needed for the proper functioning of the system and are easily replaced with more compatible forms, like the pseudo-buddhism that Žižek has talked so much about.
This kind of perspective is exactly what the retarded reactionaries here lack, and have to invent crazy conspiracy theories instead of looking at class interests.

>>9647805
Yes and most (actual) White-Nationalists have no problem with right-wing socially conservative Israeli Jews, they feel apathetic towards them.
It's the secular western Jews that tend to be massively over-represented in extreme leftist politics and SJWism/Anti-whiteness that are the issue.
They make up 2% of the population in the U.S but virtually every article(that isn't written by a P.O.C) regarding SJWism is Jewish.

Even Sweden has the most Jews compared to any other European nation per-capita, and it is no coincidence that they are the most fucked.
They invite the hated upon themselves and always have.

Again you look at African Americans today, everything they've been put through, they are angry, but because of their average 85 IQ they express that anger in tantrums and sucker punches.

When Jews get angry they infiltrate and take over institutions of power from Entertainment, Media and Academia, and openly admired to doing such in the 60's, especially regarding Academia.

>>9647813
>like the pseudo-buddhism that Žižek has talked so much about.

Funnily enough Zizek falls for his own boomer bias here, pseudo-Buddhism is fucking dead in the west, the average age of ethnically-Western buddhists is well over 50 and Asian sanghas are pulling out of the west.

>>9647813

I have no idea what you're saying because I'm not a Marxist and I've never studied Marx. I'm only assuming you're Marxist because in my experience they're the only ones that are incapable of speaking in a conversational manner.

>>9647813
>That pic
I thought communists liked economic systems that lead to mass starvation.

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>>9647828
Savage

>>9647824
He obviously isn't talking about actual Buddhist practitioners dude. Much the same as you don't have to be a Christian for your society to operate on paradigms inherited from Christian ethics, there is certainly an increasing influence of a kind of eastern metaphysics today. The idea that there are no stable identities you should attach yourself to, that you should live in a permanent state of flux and de-sensitise yourself from major ambitions and passions is the kind of worldview he is talking about.

>>9647834
>that you should live in a permanent state of flux and de-sensitise yourself from major ambitions and passions
I'm not convinced that's a commonly expressed worldview.

>>9647826
You're obviously a retard then because I put my point extremely simply. Please read some economics texts before you attempt to talk about politics on the internet again, if everyone did this I am sure we would live in a more pleasant world.
Also, the admission that you are completely ignorant regarding Marx isn't commendable, it shows that you are uncapable of understanding one of the most important intellectual traditions in the modern world. Being a Marxist hasn't stopped me from appreciating thinkers in the conservative camp, now only if the reverse was the case.

>>9647844
Only Marxists consider Marx's works worth reading. He's not respected by any non-Marxist economists.

>>9647844

If you knew what you were talking about you shouldn't have any problems explaining it to somebody that wasn't born with Das Kapital in his hands. What is this "proper materialist analysis?" It's not obvious to me "that capitalism brings about only those radical changes which are supportive of its continual reproduction" so I can't follow the inferences you draw from that. I could go on but it's clear from your reply that you're not really interested in conversation, but you're only interested in shutting people down. In other words you're a piece of shit.

>>9647854
not him but being proudly ignorant is not doing you a favor if your goal is pure strength-based cultural domination

>>9647852
Yeah you should totally ignore one of the most influential writers of all time on the basis of what economists say. Just forget the whole commie revolutions things and dont even try to understand their context and history

ok

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>>9647854
I don't see why I should have to explain basic concepts that you should already know if, like most people here, you have firm opinions regarding Marx. Also, no you don't have to read the whole Das Kapital to understand these concepts, most of the great works of Marx and Engels are pretty damn short.

Here, I'll spoonfeed you with a list.

>>9647863

Is asking for explanations proud ignorance? If anything admitting ignorance of a subject is the exact opposite. What's more humble than that?

Do you have to be autistic to be a Marxist?

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>>9647852
>economics
>a respectable field

>>9647864
Aristotle's ideas about physics were very influential for a long time. We now know they're wrong, though, so nobody brings them up in serious discussions about physics.
Similarly, Marx's economic theories have been thoroughly debunked, so they have fallen out of relevance in serious economics.

>>9647871
No, just economically illiterate.

>>9647875
Marx wrote more than pure economics, do not backtrack.

>>9647852
>Only Marxists consider Marx's works worth reading.

You do not differentiate between his works here.

>>9647873
>on /lit/
>throwing the "respectable field" stone
I don't feel like this is a good idea.

Is the actuality/potentiality divide reification?

>>9647880
The discussion was about economics.

>>9647873
I'm sorry if it gets in the way of your ideology.

>>9647883
The perceived paradigms in economics change with the wind, it's very naive to think that they progress on the basis of some objective advancement. Few decades ago, all these neoclassicals would have been convinced keynesians. You don't have to be a genius to see that the fundamental assumptions of neoclassical economics stand very shakily and are regularly criticised. Here, I'll give you someone who isn't even on the fringes of the field: Stiglitz. This guy has thoroughly debunked theories about market efficiency, but everyone still acts like Adam Smith basically had everything right.

>>9644424
Yes he has stop talking nonsense

>>9647878
this

>>9647826
Why are you pretending to be retarded like this? I understood his post completely and the only philosophical books I've read cover to cover are The Prince and Sophie's World.

>>9648162
>the only philosophical books I've read cover to cover are The Prince and Sophie's World.

Look at this proud ignorance

>>9644424

Justification of suffering tends to put people off, regardless of how much Nietzschean artifice it contains and how meta-aesthetically pleasing it is.

>>9644424
So there's no need for faith in religion now?
Good to know, I've to tell my gradma that.

Cultural catholicism > atheism > shit > cultural protestantism

I'm an atheist because I'm lazy

>>9644424
essences don't exist, mystic

>>9648190
Where did I imply that I am proud of that? Now you are just making shit up and changing the subject.

>>9648214
>>9644623
Best in thread.

>>9646432

Your highlighting discipline is awful.

>>9647813
>The whole structure of the traditional family is inconsistent with a neoliberal market economy
It's also incompatible with communism

>>9647683
>he thinks Bacon refuted scholasticism
Actually, it was Descartes. Bacon is rather insignificant. That should be common knowledge for anyone who is interested in philosophy.
>muh evolutionary biology
Am I supposed to take an idiot that lacks basic knowledge seriously? You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Proceed to leave the board together with other imbeciles who post misinformation from shitty wikipedia/stanford.edu articles under the disguise of millions of complicated terms whose meaning you do not know.

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>St. Aquinas has never been refuted
what form of refutation do you accept other than logical? because you obviously don't accept logical refutation.

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>>9647660
You just aint wÖk up, Son of Yakub.

Angels will guide you to the truth.

We cannot know all that the angels are doing today. However, the Bible indicates that they are involved in helping sincere people come to know more about God.—Acts 8:26-35; 10:1-22; Revelation 14:6, 7.

Jehovah gave the patriarch Jacob a dream in which he saw angels ascending and descending a “stairway” between heaven and earth. (Genesis 28:10-12) Jacob probably concluded from that dream what we too can conclude—that Jehovah God dispatches the angels to the earth on missions, to act in behalf of loyal humans who are in need of his assistance.—Genesis 24:40; Exodus 14:19; Psalm 34:7.

>>9644424
>St. Aquinas has never been refuted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3yKxvW9yNA

You were saying?

>>9647455
Miracles don't occur.

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Angels appeared to Jesus and strengthened him.

>>9649083

>Amazing Atheist
I'm not going to listen to 15 minutes of a guy that shoves bananas up his asshole just to hear what probably isn't even a refutation.

>>9649048
>>9648214
>>9644623
These are good but not exactly refutations, more dismissals. It's just as possible that this consistent logic does indeed involve reality; you've stated that it may not,but that isn't a refutation (which would require the proof that it is not.) I asked for a referenced work refuting it but have just gotten a thread full of people going
>Nuh uh it has!
And one asscream sundae video.

>>9649342
Do you seriously think shakespeare didnt shove bananas up his asshole?

>>9646432
>That first highlight which asserts itself based upon precisely jack fucking dick

>That second highlight which attempts to blunt force trauma humanize agape, which is completely different from most human love

Holy fuck no wonder teenage angsty autists love Nietzsche

>>9647854
>WHY ARENT YOU MAKING AN EFORT TO INCLUDE DUMDUM IN THE CONVERSATION! THIS IS PROBLEMATIC!!!!!! FUCKING RETARDPHOBIC ASSHOLE.
gtfo back to tumblr

>>9647463
who the fuck is this guy and why does he have so much unwarranted self-importance? he has the critical thinking skills of an eight year old.

the comments were disheartening also. one guy compiled my basic arguments against the video, then was told by 13 year olds to read camus and sartre, not aristotle and aquinas. plus, they brazenly misinterpret nietzsche.
i did the same when i was their age desu

>>9647614
so now it's just faith in atheism versus logic in christianity?

>if i think god doesn't exist, then he mustn't exist!

>>9645718
>being this spooked by your own ego, ie. so entirely controlled by chemicals, impulses and bodily wants, that you ignore all of metaphysics
Literally an animal. Why reduce the power of your reason to such filth?

>>9650551
>who the fuck is this guy and why does he have so much unwarranted self-importance? he has the critical thinking skills of an eight year old.
He amassed a following during the circa 2006 "New Atheism" circlejerk on YouTube, attacking ridiculous strawmen and easy targets. Then he had enough of an audience to do it full time. Consequently, he never had a job and only moved out of mom's basement so he could hang around with his equally immature, degenerate, weed smoking friends. He never had the right influences to develop past this point because the people he associates with have inferior IQ and he won't move on to betters.

>>9644424
St Aquinas was proven to be the product of a homosexual necrophilia who got caught raping a goat and needed a good cover-up story.

It's true! I read it in the bible.

>>9647813
>>9647844
POL BTFO!!!

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>THE RELIGION I AM BORN INTO IS THE ONE TRUE RELIGION

>>9650699

I wasn't born into Christianity and I became one. Now what?

>>9649067
>ayodolf ohila

haha

This thread was a nice read

>>9647714
you need to think about this as a mechanism. there is causality inside it, everything inside the system needs causes to move. that doesn't mean the outside of the system makes sense causally. it's like the scientists who can't attribute a beginning to the big bang, but inside time (our system), the big bang is itself the beginning. there's or there isn't a causal force that starts causality, it doesn't matter that much. people like leibniz makes sense of this as limits of human knowledge where reason just goes a lot of way to figure things out but stumbles upon a limit that defies reason, precisely by the existence of this limit there should exist an higher reasoning in which this higher plane works, and that is a proof of existence of god

>>9647727
we discovered god through religions and a different god with each

>>9644424
Yeah. I don't really care about St. Aquinas.

>>9647875
I hear this all the time but never actually understood how Aristotle's physics are proven wrong other than his astronomy, anybody can give a quick rundown?

>>9650670
> entirely controlled by chemicals, impulses and bodily wants
t. Donald Duck