What are /lit/'s honest thoughts on Graphic 'Novels'?

>>9612060
cape shit is trash but a lot of manga is better than what passes for literature these days (eggers franzen dfw etc)

>>9612060
>>9612070

I agree with Moore that superhero shit, don't know if it was actually him that said that, has ruined the perception of comics. Comics can still be an enjoyable medium with some high brow stuff but there's nothing on the same levels as classical literature. It's entertainment and nothing more and shouldn't be treated as pop culture worship like it is today due to how poisoning it is.

Watchmen is worth a look. Beyond that there's some quality, but it's sparse.

incal is worth a look, but i only read that shit when im really hungover and my brain is fried. still better than tv and new movies

Some capeshit can be nice to read. Perez Wonder Woman and Cookes New Frontier are very pleasent reads.

>>9612070
Really? Waht manga would you suggest?

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>>9612060
>What are /lit/'s honest thoughts on Graphic 'Novels'?
Some are good, some are bad, just like books. That being said, there's too much super hero shit that is mostly, if not all, trash.

>Does it feel a bit too dumbed down for you on in terms of writing?
Not necessarily, as I said, some are good. The best graphic novels, IMO, are the ones that mesh the visuals with plot, creating a native that wouldn't work in other mediums.

> What are some graphic novels you personally like?
Pic related, is one of my favorites. That and Maus.

> What is it that you dislike about graphic novels?
As I said, too much super hero shit.

>>9612060

The Incal, for god's sake. I'd challenge people to a duel for criticizing that graphic novel.

>>9612135
Not him, but Planetes is a personal favourite of mine. Can't go wrong with Solanin or Goodnight Pun Pun either. Everybody seems to be into Junji Ito's stuff right now. Never read it personally but my buddy thinks it's great.

I find it hilarious how the harder a comic writer bitches at capeshit, the higher the prevalence of 2heroic4u larger than life heroes in his opus, ranging from The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen to what are basically gods in Sandman.

>GO BACK TO THE FIFTIES WITH YOUR "SUPER" HEROES, WE ONLY DO SCIENCE HEROES (TM) HERE

>>9612095
>I agree with Moore that superhero shit, don't know if it was actually him that said that, has ruined the perception of comics.
He and a lot of other people said that and I say that as well.

Mostly indifferent, but I can't stand the ones they try to push in college lit classes these days where it's usually some poorly illustrated first person account of someone's family getting killed in a war. Those feel like a half assed attempt to connect with something familiar to the younger generation without actually understanding the appeal of the format.

Read a graphic novel recommended in a thread here last week. Asterios Polyp. It was great 10/10 made use of its medium in creative ways that aided the narrative.

Asterios Polyp
Persepolis
Jimmy Corrigan

>>9612060
>What are /lit/'s honest thoughts on Graphic 'Novels'?
They're for children
> Does it feel a bit too dumbed down for you on in terms of writing?
"dumbed down" is an understatement

>What are some graphic novels you personally like?
none

>What is it that you dislike about graphic novels?

its like being spoonfed stewed apples and pears

The art style is the only important part to me. I like the most generic superhero bullshit better than e.g. Persepolis simply because it visually appeals to me more. I don't know why all the "good" stories always need to be drawn in such a simplified, abstract style, it ruins everything. I'd rather have pretty art with no substance than a good story with ugly-ass Peanuts-level art.

Herge's "Adventures of Tintin" kept me alive as a kid. They really are brilliant, good plots, great comedy, memorable characters.
Alan Moore is the master of graphic novels, though Gaiman is good too. Joe Sacco's "Palestine" was some powerful shit. "Persepolis" and "Maus" were okay, but very emotionally-manipulative, one-sided.
However, as with many animated films and all video games, graphic novels are too associated with moronic juveniles chewing bubblegum to be considered serious art.

>>9612060
I haven't read many graphic novels, but honest to God Bechdel's Fun Home is quite good. It may be spammed by gender studies majors on tumblr, but once you get past its toxic fanbase, the book itself is a good read.

>>9612060
i like the visual storytelling, i don't care about the writing. i have literally hundreds of gigabytes of pirated comic books, chosen entirely based on which artists i like, which i regularly look at without actually reading the word balloons. some are in languages i can't even read (mostly french). the really good ones don't actually need the words to be understandable, just like a great movie is still great when watched on mute.

comic books are a cool visual medium that's suffering from a bunch of wanky failed novelists that want to cover the whole page in their shitty exposition.

>>9612330
>pirated
Thank you for being part of the problem.

>>9612404
lol. comic books are dying because their audience was almost exclusively kids and now kids just watch games on youtube and wouldn't touch a comic book with somebody else's dick. even if every pirate bought everything they stole in triplicate, comic books would still be a pathetic ruin of a once successful medium.

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>>9612430
Of course. Whatever you want to believe in.

>>9612439
i believe anything i can grasp is mine. go on living your slave life, paying for """art"""

>>9612060
Judging an entire genre, style?, through a bunch of works you chose seems pretty biased. I really liked Mauss, Persepolis, Inio's work, Junji Ito, Nishioka Brosis... I even like Prison School. I don't know, I can't shit on graphic novels, maybe the popular superhero shit makes people believe graphic novels are only about superheroes as Harry Potter can make some people believe literature is only fantasy genre?

Another question, take away the mask,costume and cape, is it still capeshit?

They're not really to my taste, I can enjoy them but it's not something I seek out. I don't have a problem with them really, but I don't really care about them either.

>>9612504
You have to be 18+ before posting on 4chan.

>>9612504
Yet another example of the redditry exhibited by cancerous stirnerfags.

Kaoru Moris manga is amazing.

I hate the term graphic novel. Just call it a comic, don't be ashamed, own that shit.

I think comics are the best medium for biographies. Stuff like Maus or Persepolis are great, the format lets you do some really interesting stuff while remaining in the realms of non-fiction.

>>9612931
>I hate the term graphic novel. Just call it a comic, don't be ashamed, own that shit.

it's just a publishing term for comics that are released in book form and not serialized, also sometimes used to distinguish between collected editions of serialized comics (trade paperback) and something that was published as a book without being serialized first (graphic novel). it doesn't mean "comic book but for adults" or whatever you think it means.

Nausicaa manga is top tier
Everything by Moore is at least good, Swamp Thing being great (though Top 10 is my favorite).
Sandman is good, though Marvel 1602 is my favorite Gaiman. I'm very fond of a lot of Morrison, Doom Patrol being his best.
Prophet is dope. Also a fan of Manifest Destiny.

>>9612070
>manga is better than what passes for literature these days
Thinking that manga has any sort of value other than being cheap wish fullfilment entertainment is one of the things that genuinely makes me mad

>>9612889
Emma is alright. And of course it's not the Jane Austen book I would still probably prefer it in manga form

>>9613021
It is definitely used that way by marketers and manchildren who exclusively consume comics. It's a stupid term, considering most "graphic novels" are not even strictly that, Watchmen is a collected serialised comic

The only graphic novel I like is The Walking Dead. I have only tried a few other graphic novels, never again.

Charles Burns Black Hole is brilliant, manages to capture horror without degrading into generic tropes. I quite liked the cinematic short too, it could be a good film

>>9613038
Vast majority of manga is shit, but I'm sure the same could apply to literature.

>>9613049
that's just because some people want to distinguish between tpbs and graphic novels and some just consider anything thick to be a graphic novel no matter if it was originally serialized or not. everyone today is going to read watchmen as if it was a book with twelve chapters and not a series, so it's not a big deal. the point is that everyone knows that a graphic novel is just a format of a comic book. they're not in denial about reading comic books.

i honestly see complaints about the term being pretentious way more often than i see the term actually used pretentiously. people say graphic novel because that's what the bookstore labels that shelf, not because they're in some state of comic book denial that you need to snap them out of. it's a completely innocuous term.

>>9613121
See >>9613055

>>9613104

>"Using the same standards that categorize 90% of science fiction as trash, crud, or crap, it can be argued that 90% of film, literature, consumer goods, etc. are crap. In other words, the claim (or fact) that 90% of science fiction is crap is ultimately uninformative, because science fiction conforms to the same trends of quality as all other artforms." —Theodore Sturgeon

>>9612226
adding to this yoshihiro tatsumi and (stateside) harvey pekar in a similar vein.

>>9612635
This

I uses to be anti-graphic novel until I had to read Moore's "From Hell" for a lit class. Totally changed my outlook on the medium. It's still the only one I've read, but I feel as though there has to be others that I would enjoy as much or more than From Hell.

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there's so much bad superhero stuff nowadays that manga surpasses it easily. it's sad

>>9613246
this is science fiction fandom in a nutshell. a desperate need for science fiction to be as respected as "real literature" coupled with inability to actually defend its quality leads into this absurd evasion where you argue by comparing imaginary quality percentages. my favorite bit is how he considers the "quality of an artform" and the "quality of a consumer good" to be interchangeable concepts, so science fiction "conforms to the same trends of quality" as literature and fuzzy toilet seats. brilliant.

so now you have entire generations of sf fans repeating this moronic quote like a mantra. at least a comic book fan can read "understanding comics" and argue semi-intelligently that the shit he likes employs interesting visual storytelling techniques or whatever. it might be weak but it's at least a positive argument as opposed to the science fiction mantra of "other things are also bad".

>>9612060
Always hated the term graphic novel because it's fucking stupid. Are comics literature? You can't compare a medium which works by combining words and image with a one that consists entirely of the written word. A good comic doesn't need "good" writing in the same way as a novel does, because the text fills an entirely different function.

>>9615177
Touche

Love and Rockets

>>9612060
Superheroes are the American Pantheon of Gods, if you disagree you know nothing of mythology or literature. The saying should be "Start with the New 52"

>>9612060
Is there a list of /lit/ approved comics/graphic novels? I dabble in the medium but nothing serious, so I want to know if there is anything more cerebral that you guys have read

>>9617809
The pantheon of gods were actually worshipped by the major patricians and plebeians alike. Superhero are just masculine power fantasies for beta males and kids.

>>9617809
Superheroes are just cultural cancer. If they truly were the american pantheon/mythos, that would only be an insult to America.

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Born Again is best comic book ever.

It played around with the character's history, looked at what made him tick, completely destroyed it and built something new.

It made so many choices that you just can't get away with today and all of them stuck with the character and none of were even as much as mentioned before. Daredevil is known as that character who is Catholic. He wasn't a Catholic for 227 issues of Volume 1 of the series until Born Again, that's how powerful it is.

Fake and gay.

>>9618361
>unironic capeshit
>best comic ever
>>>/co/

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>>9614689
Superheros are the romance novels of the comic medium. It´s pretty easy to go better. So shovel your weabooness someplace.

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I always despised super heroes, i used to be a comic book nerd back when you were an actual outcast for being a comic book nerd and before every 10 cape shit movies a year made the public think that wearing black rimmed glasses and collecting funko pop made you a nerd. Or before marvel went full sjw and ruined everything.
I always hated cape shit for the most part.
When i was a kid i would read r.crumb, johnny the homicidal maniac, usagi yojimbo, bone, joe matt, anything that wasnt cape shit, i also read lots of manga.
The cape shit genre is so limiting and sterile.

The only time it was ever good was in the 90's when you had British occultists like alan moore and grant morrison writing for them.

Is there anything really much to say about graphic novels, wow a collected work of comic books...

>>9617809
>New 53
>Not Jack Kirby
>Being this pleb

Just bought watchmen this week and it's saturated with symbolism, such a good book. L'Hydrie was nice too.

I haven't yet read one that convinced me of the medium's worth. Watchmen was pretty good. Sandman hasn't held my attention. I don't feel compelled to give too many GNs chances because they're pricey and most of them look pretty terrible. Superhero stories are mostly Jewish propaganda about whatever underclass is currently being told that it can someday seize power and save the world, anyway. The ones that aren't Jewish propaganda are just general liberal-democratic propaganda about the importance of maintaining the status quo.

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>>9612268
>They´re for children
Sure...

What made Watchmen so worthwhile?

>>9620149
It touched serious themes with maturity

>>9613061
Yeah that one's really comfy, haven't read anything like it

>>9620160
So what is it about other capeshit that makes their attempt less good?

>>9620677
They make the situations less realistic

>>9619905
15 yr olds are still children

>>9620698
That's wrong. Watchmen isn't realistic.
It is dark. It does have relatively mature themes, like rape and the psychological toll it takes on women and the things it can do to a sense of identity. It also has blue nuclear gods of science and exploding fake octopi from another dimension.

>>9620700
>People with facial hair, pubs, and a high masturbation desire every hour are still children
Sure...

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alan moore garbage occultist and pretentious annoying writer. V one of the worst characters in literature

>>9620706
>Watchmen isn´t realistic
Not a single superhero comic is, there are some who are very verosimile, which is different, still, the reactions and actions of the characters are realistic, not like a lot of superhero comics like... "Spider-Man" for example, just think about it, do you really think a guy like Peter can get a woman so hot like MJ in real life? (with the money issues included)

>>9620745
> the reactions and actions of the characters are realistic, not like a lot of superhero comics like... "Spider-Man" for example, just think about it, do you really think a guy like Peter can get a woman so hot like MJ in real life? (with the money issues included)
Same question about Dan Draper and the rape product.

>>9619652
>bone
I read that shit when I was a kid, it was definitely better than capeshit.

>>9620724
legally and mentally yes

>>9620797
They don´t treat them with the words "baby" and "sweetheart" anymore, do they? (Except the GFs)

>>9620706
Remember the knot-tops from the comic? They rocked the same pieces as youth today, they are literally white thugs with manbuns. We are now living in the Watchmen distopia. And how the characters appear so human, like the Comedian?

>>9620989
>>9620748
also the symbolism everywhere. The book is packed with great artistry.

>>9620992
i dont get why people have a hard on for symbolism

There are some great comics, but the medium is diluted by a lot of trash.

Nothing that matches genuine literary classics yet, but that's to be expected, it's a very young medium.

Stuff worth reading:
Mauz
Persepolis
Preacher (fuck you I like it)
Lost Girls
Blankets

Has anyone read the new Flintstones? I'm trying not to buy too many new books, but I'm tempted.

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Are light novels literature?

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I think that we can all at least agree that shoujo is 100% /lit/

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pure Dostoevsky characterisation

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Is there no love for the Franco-Belgian artists ? A lot of series are either "mature" shit or made for kids but things like Moebius' works are so good and influential beyond their art.
I also think the first Ghost in the Shell manga was great but Man-Machine interface lost it completely.

>>9616428
One of the greatest comics of all time.

>>9622713
because it's hard to do

>>9612060
why do i need pictures to tell me what to imagine?

yes, they do feel dumbed down and generally immature

>>9623280
You're just plain wrong.

>>9620989
>Remember the knot-tops from the comic? They rocked the same pieces as youth today, they are literally white thugs with manbuns
That's strange because the book is set in the 1980s that were contemporary to its production team. I don't know where you get the idea that everyone goes around wearing leather jackets and manbuns while patrolling the streets for innocent people to beat up but it's not the way the world works. Most people don't dress or behave like those characters.

>>9623206
I feel like either I'm missing the genius of man machine interface or it was a schizophrenic mess. Stabat Mater was very Nick Land/CCRUesque though

>>9612060
Just as valid of a storytelling medium as any other, but of course in /lit/ navelgazer-land it's a medium for little babies and inferior to the pure 'kino' tripe like to read.

Literary fiction fans should just be gassed so the rest of us can enjoy what we like in peace.

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>>9623677
Same. I tried very hard to like it but I'm obliged to recognize it's fanfic tier.
It lost everything that made the original manga so enjoyable. Motoko became an omnipotent character, capable of doing anything with unlimited resources except showing likable traits. The light touches of humor disappeared in favor of endless pantyshots. The world didn't feel coherent, dirty, layered and lived in. The author notes were so rare and a far cry from past philosophical musings and insights into the world-building. The story was just a plain mess.
I just can't fathom what happened in Shirow's head. I guess we just gotta be thankful the original Ghost in the Shell exists even if it means nothing can ever approach its greatness.

>>9612325
Read Sacco's Safe Area Gorazade. I liked it a lot more than Palestine. To me those two boos gave me the biggest insight on the Israeli and Palestinian conflict, that is without studying it extensively.

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Saga of the Swamp Thing is mostly excellent. Gaiman drew a lot of stylistic inspiration from it for Sandman.

>>9623081
Oh, I thought the new Flintstones was great. I'd recommend for /lit/ people to read, one of the better DC Comics published the past few years IMO. The social satire may seem entry-level but it has enough charm, humour, and great art

99% of cape comics belong in the trash. There are some genuinely great works from the medium, but it gets washed out by Batman punching Joker Issue #93301

>>9625441
Pretty much how I feel, every cape comic is just a elaborate brawl. There's even a Superman comic where he says he let's his enemy hit him first so he knows how much to hold back, like he just can't hit him a bit harder and be done with it.

Anyway, I recommend Hellboy and BPRD.

>>9612325
That's what people said about the novel too.

>>9623285
Why do you need text to tell you what to imagine?

I don't really care for comics but that's a dumb argument.

>>9623591
literally do this: open Watchmen

>>9623599
nice dubs but you missed the point.

>>9624042
If you're interested theres a new collection of gits short stories out by Japanese sci fi writers, some of it is good.

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>>9623189
I'm not sure what to feel about Don Rosa's work honestly. It's such a strange situation.

He's so ahead of other comic illustrators and writers it's ridicilous, but donald duck-comics are seen as such a low-brow medium. In a lot of ways it honestly is. I have read a lot of of duck comics, and most of it is unambitious and seems to be simply shat out.

If Don Rosa worked in a different medium he would be a well-known and respected artist. But in this timeline he will be mostly forgotten except for a small fringe audience.

Who the hell starts reading duck-comics in a time of netflix and whatever else kids prefer now?

>>9625743
Open any (non-graphic) novel and you'll find symbolism. It's not difficult.
>>9625756
You could clarify: What is the point? That gangs exist in Watchmen and in real life?

>>9612060
>Batman gently caressing the spine of the hardcover
>Dickens reading the Batman #1 like a mong by ensuring it will fold under it's weight and getting fingerprints all over the cover

Who made this?

>>9626364

Its the ultimate taste test. Seeing if you can go beyond the exterior and experience the substance underneath.

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I think /lit/ would enjoy hellboy.

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>>9627312

>>9612060
>Does it feel a bit too dumbed down for you on in terms of writing?
Yeah, but the format means there's isn't much of a way to avoid it. It needs to be a good middle ground instead of over-commanding art or over-saturated writing.

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>>9612106
You might like Pluto, it is basically the dark Moore re-imagining for Astro Boy.

>>9612060
If you actually use the medium to enhance the story they can be amazing, Sandman is probably among my top 10 favorite works.

>>9612060
overall I love both of them and they can both be written very well and they can both be hot garbage. I think books need to written in a way that sounds like someone would naturally talk (but that's just...like...my opinion man) and with comic books they feel like writing movies without sound.
anyway I hope people can accept comics/graphic novels as a form of professional writing with the plebeians

>>9626364
>But in this timeline he will be mostly forgotten except for a small fringe audience.
donald duck comics are, or were, household items in scandinavia, probably every tenth young-ish male knows don rosa

>>9612060
I'm the only person who totally doesn't give a fuck about Adam West. He was like 90 and had a good life and hadn't been on TV in 50 years. This is so reddit.

>>9612060
Tintin is good

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The Sandman has more literary merit than say, any given selfhelp book out there. Or any erotic novel, or anything written by an angsty and edgy teenager.

>>9628403
Wow, what a success. Sounds really impressive.

>>9628512
Much more than anything you will ever accomplish, my dear mortal Anon.

http://www.tor.com/2017/02/09/the-death-of-sandman-a-psychiatric-reading/

>>9623189
pinnacle of western comics

>>9626364
In Germany the translator did an amazing job for Bark's and Rosa's comics. The translation includes literary allusions to Schiller, Hoethe and others. It is highly regarded even by scholars.

>>9626364
As a casual, explain what is so great about it

Graphic novel is a product. comic book art is another thing. generally the better comics are more visually based. Verbose comics are generally trash.

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>>9630275

read it and find out.

>>9612095
not sure what you mean by "poisoning". it's a very strong thing to say about an entire medium. I know you may not enjoy comics but it's kind of weird to say as a general statement.

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>>9612070
those are both very general statments, I have read some clever examples from both. but there are bad examples of Manga and Comics but there are some terrible books that get published too, I personally thought the first half of 1000 splendid suns was awful (second half was very nice but it should have just started there). anyway you have your opinion, I have mine. you're allowed to be wrong (haha, nah, just rustling your jimmys)

>>9631026
someone didn't read

>>9612060
Pulp > graphic novels
Even capeshit pulp is superior to capeshit comics

>>9631034
woops, soz, gg gg gg

>>9627825
I like Tintin

Is Krazy Kat really that good?

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>>9613038

This is the opinion of someone who thinks manga is literally just Naruto or Bleach, and that criticism doesn't even define why those two works are bad

>>9613038
darn, you're absolutely right, the reason Evangelion, Berserk, Alien 9 and Ghost in the shell isn't because I become interested in the world, characters, story and use of silent story telling but because I too want to be a little boy who is looked down upon by his father, I too want to lose the friends I once had and have my best friend cuck me and rape my wife.
I was going to continue this but you get the point, sit on it anon

>>9631044
Yes.

>>9612060
>What are /lit/'s honest thoughts on Graphic 'Novels'?
They're an easy source of entertainment and at times can be somewhat thought provoking

>Does it feel a bit too dumbed down for you on in terms of writing?
Name anything that can't/hasn't ever been.

> What are some graphic novels you personally like?
Saga of the Swamp Thing and Animal Man

>What is it that you dislike about graphic novels?
That the majority of them are used as devices to maintain copyright licenses and movie/television pitches.

>>9626382
I'm not a native speaker so it'd be difficult for me to explain everything I think about Watchmen. So please, just read it and find out for yourself.

>>9628600
it would be more impressive if you could defend it coherently in your own words instead of comparing it to self-help. why is sandman good? just write a short explanation, don't link to someone else's blog posts.

Watchmen
Sandman
Blanket

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>>9631528
not that guy, and I haven't read it in years, but it's essentially a look at the human condition, the dichotomy of hope and despair, and it's filled with some really clever writing. I've since read a few of Neil Gaiman's books which handle similar subject matter, but not quite to the degree that the Sandman series did. Not to mention, he seemed to get different artists for each volume so it kept it fresh

>>9612060
The term "Graphic Novel" is a retarded attempt to rebrand comics as being more acceptable, and at worst even creates an artificial rift between comics that are arbitrarily decided to be good, and ones that are not.

I have also experience it as a purely American term, applied purely to American comics. And frankly, my opinion of the American comics industry is rather dim. It seems to have no real culture of quality, and the art in a lot of American comics often contains huge, glaring errors. This is probably owes to the production process, and the need to push out new issues, and can undoubtedly also be credited for the often poor writing.

I have grown up reading Franco-Belgian comics, and still read them to this day. Every one of my misgivings with American comics, be they "graphic novels" or not, is answered by Franco-Belgian artists. The art is always of the highest quality, and while the writing (sadly) often lags behind, there are some truly great comics among them. Even the regular, low-brow comedy stuff like Asterix et Obelix, or Gaston Lagaffe seems more insightful and intelligent than the average American comic.

The final nail in the coffin is the fact that Joe Haldeman decided to go to Belgium to find an artist to work on a comic with. Honestly, it pains me that the genre is so invisible to his many countrymen. I mean, there's literally one other guy in this thread even mentioning it.

>>9612245
>Asterios Polyp

Came here to post this.

That remark will always be a reminder of our genuine friendship and your ultimate betrayal Mr. Snips. It's there to stay. Dwell on it.

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>>9632382

a-wahhh?

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>>9633840

shh...

>>9631003

hang around enough comic fans and youll understand. i worked in a comic shop once and it made me despise the community to new levels.

>>9633844
kek