The Pale King

>>9598647
Better than IJ tbqhfam

I'm 100 pages in and loving it so far.

>>9598741
in which way?

i've read it and it's much better than IJ.
Anyone who hates wallace probably hasn't read or understood this book.
If you consider its meta-elements, ambitions, and references I would consider this probably the greatest pomo book of all time.

>>9598747
It's less complete because it's a *literally* unfinished work, but I think it gets across DFW's humanism and sincerity in a much clearer way.

IJ death with the extremes of society—figurant geniuses and drug addicts—as they attempted to stay connected with the world and not lapse into utter depression and selfishness. This is why the novel comes of as insincere to a lot of people, and they don't understand how it relates to DFW's philosophy expressed in stuff like 'this is water' or 'e unibus pluram.'

With the Pale King, DFW deals with ordinary people working (mostly) unfulfilling and boring jobs, and how they try and cope with the boredom of every day life.

>>9598647
it's like a hot chick but she's missing a leg

>>9598747
>>9598787
So basically what I'm trying to say is that, unlike IJ which regularly gets criticized for being intellectual masturbations, a major exercise in sadness, cold + uncaring, etc... The Pale King is more down to earth. It deals with the 'average American' as DFW saw him. Just look at the setting of the novel: Peoria, Illinois. Small town Midwest. At an IRA office.

The book (you'll see this when you read the notes in the back) also plays with the theme of cold + robot-like bureaucracy vs human ability + caring. That's the major change going on within the IRS during the novel, and it helps to highlight was I was previously talking about.

I hope this makes sense.

>>9598787
the point of the book is that it's about him. It really is a fractured pseudo-memoir if you're a good reader and know enough about him.
It is finished in that sense.
The possible additions and the prospect of part 2 were more like wishful-thinking possiblities for entertainment, career ambition purposes. If he'd ever actually written them it probably would have seen hokey.
As it is, it feels unfufilling (like life or "the water") but that's part of the point.
The fact that it's not finished for "us" is not relevant and he knew that which is why he died.

>>9598801
his ultimate answer is a bit of a paradox though.
He ends up putting his trust in Mehl Lehlr aka the machine" in his act of suicide (leaving the future to fate/automation)
the trick of this however is that Melhr Lehlr, while all for automation, robotic tendencies, was ultimately a slave to a child. someone else's child who was terribly goo-prone and weak yet still demanded authority.

therefore his final position is kind of a strange compromise on what he saw as the issue which is what i think is very interesting and also lends a sense of completeness to the novel

>>9598803
This is the worst reading of The Pale King I've ever heard

>>9598811
you could even argue that the ferocious child that Mehlr Erroll Lehrl was subservient to is a stand-in for humanity.
Please don't listen to illiterate retards who think the book is literally unfinished. It shows weak reading comprehension and a poor understanding of art and what it really is

>>9598803
>>9598819
Likewise, if you think the DFW character in the novel IS DFW the writer you're a fucking pseud.

>>9598819
Youre a fool.
I could read you under the table on this book.
I practically have it memorised.

This is my favorite chapter:

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/02/05/good-people

>>9598827
no youre a fool.
Its a reference to the death of the author.
the whole story is full of lies, rewritings of events in his life.
Lol what do you think he means by "the service" or the nepotistic juice that got him there.
Please dont even try me.

>>9598822
>>9598828
You may have it memorized but you can do literary interpretation to save your life. It's not about DFW, and it is unfinished.

>>9598827
nice explanation .
is there any book ,not written by DFW , that is similar to the pale king

>>9598835
No it litearlly is about him.
Every character is like a schizophrenic manifestation of his person.
If you had any idea of what being a heady writer is about you'd understand.

>>9598835
youre a terrible reader of subtext btw.
My literary interpretations are practically spot-on with this book. I would even consider it an expertise of sorts.

>>9598803
but the book is fucking RAW. All of his other work is so so polished but pale king is so obviously not in certain parts. Just accept the fact that he killed himself and we'll never see the book finished (duh)

>>9598867
yeah it's disjointed. but you gotta udnerstand that IJ had parts added to by request of editors and whatnot.
This book was pure art. he organized it the way he did on purpose. It was finished to him.
For added emphasis it should be noted that in his unedited manuscript he'd deliberately moved the DFW section to the front.
you're like the characters in the book who stares at te window and sees nothing past it.
learn about art and the human spirit or something. media isnt just fun-time entertainment. or did you miss that too?

>>9598861
Hey bud, don't say things like that without presenting any evidence. You just sound ridiculous.

>>9598975
Well ask me any question about the book then.
something that refutes my claim that the book is in reality a cleverly metafictional titty-pincher memoir-in-disguise (he did say it was the LAST thing the novel was in his pseudo forward)

i'll answer it and i'll prove my point.
It'd be fun for me because I know this book better than my own mother probably

>>9598975
the fact is that the actual evidence is very complicated and convoluted.
It would help if you asked specifics.
You gotta be a good reader to really pick up on it. It might also help to have read his other work and have familiarity with his history.
The fact is, that the book is kind of a memoir if you know what to look for.
He even references his upcoming suicide and circumstances surrounding albeit obliquely near the end of the novel itself.

>>9598981
>write book indicting American narcissism
>book is read as nothing more than the schizophrenic transposition of your life in order to spite your wife, family, and readers all just for the awesome pleasure of a permanently inside joke

boring stuff about IRS and silly pseudo autobiography

>>9598993
he hated his wife near the end so that's what it became.
read bough down by karen green (his widow)
it was an act of revenge.

>>9598994
the worst people are the people who think he's literally referring to the IRS
there's very little actually about that. Most of it is made up or is there to disguise other things.

>>9598993
and he did indict himself in the novel you moron.
learn to read.

>>9598999
why don't you try to get your thoughts on the book published since you know it so well and have such a distinct reading of it?

>>9599013
I have a close realtionship with his biographer DT Max so maybe i will. who knows.
i wasn't joking about my expertise.
I practically re-read his novels once a month (mostly skim or mass chunks of specific sections).
I'm borderline OCD autistic but you would probably never guess in real-life.
He probably was too to some extent

>>9598647
WE WATER NOW

>>9599018
op here could you explian your theory about the book?

Whoa so David Foster Wallace IS the Pale king.. outstanding!

>>9599034
oh boy it would take all day.
But basically it's a big "death of the author"-referencing (read this) pseudo memoir that's more about how/why to live as a person in an uncaring world ruled by bureaucracy.
the answer ends up being kids by the way (which david never had and repeatedly reminds us of the fact throughout the novel in order to earn some sort of forgiveness)

>>9599038
no part of the joke is that he's not the pale king, though he would assume people would think that. It's kind of an indictment of himself.
Thats the kind of the joke of the chapter.

>>9599018
>I have a close realtionship with his biographer DT Max so maybe i will.

what?

I just find it really hard to believe that all the effort he goes through to talk about community and communication and etc. was all disingenuous and in service of playing this sort of joke. Can you briefly defend why he went to such length to enshroud such negative attitudes in book that has ostensive ambitions of being positive? You pretty much only respond with biting sarcasm and telling someone else learn to read. Briefly try to convince me, it shouldnt be hard since you know it so well

>>9599050
I email Max regularly.
I explained earlier.
The book, like almost all of his work (learn to read again), revolves around a paradox.
Re-read what i said about him ultimately siding with Mehlr Ehlr Lehlr in the end.
The "this is water" wallace is hardly even him if you're even paying attention.

>>9598803
The books inst finished because that way it mirrors DFW suicide? Was that his plan after all? What a madman

>>9599253
>not understanding that it wasn't a "mirroring"
his suicide is essentailly the last sentence.
open your eyes.

>>9599259
I dont have the book, can you send me a copy? How long is it?

>>9599259
>Heh... I'll show you "death of the author" ..! Also I don't have any kids who will want their father to teach them

also people gotta get over the fact that it's unfinished like Infinite Jest wasn't too.
It's practically his trademark.
They only slapped that on the cover to sell copies.
He certainly would not have described it that way given the way he deliberately arranged the manuscript and made it somewhat of a focus of his death (his writing room was the only lit room in the house, deliberately left with a single beam of light falling upon the work)

>>9599278
500 pages more or less.
>>9599280
technically the message he's getting across is that we, the readers, are his kids and he could serve us better in death.
In the end this kinda turns true as most people would never have read him had he not.

>>9599281
Did he write a suicide note ?

>>9598647
It's written absolutely beautifully. Would have been considered his best if he had finished it.

I like how lit ironices all dfw's merits, archivements, struggles, suffering, thoughts, ideas, etc...
Admit that you wish you could had been the voice of your generation but DFW already did it, regardless of all his and his work's flaws

>>9599297
he did but karen won't share it.
Probably because it had some really revealing stuff in there.
She was interrogated by the FBI regarding certain lines in there that much we know

>>9599297
It's called The Pale King

>>9599301
source on fbi?

>>9599281
it's also worth mentioning for all my non-believers out there, that most people didnt understand IJ either until hey had someone explain it to them.
TPK doesn't have that luxury and im providing a very inexpensive, brief version of that service in this thread. (there's moer to it though too, notice that karen green was the name of the wife in House of Leaves, the big pomo book that sorta ripped him off).
the meta knows no ends.
People don't give him enough credit or just arent able to think for themselves i cant decide

>>9599318
bough down by his wife.
It explains a lot.

i should also add that it's not so much a referencing to "the death of the author", but a critique

>>9599356
Made me think

>>9599324
i havent read the book what does explain ?

>>9599404
basically he was fucking around and she was mad. He had planned the suicide (almost psychopathically) for a while.
You probably could have picked this up from the "backbone" chapter though

wallace is an overrated hack

>>9599404
also he hit her and knocked one of her "crowned" teeth out
possibly an omen.
Lots of references to teeth

>>9599417
Damn

>>9599454
he was crying at the time.

>>9599457
The important question is did he ever get cucked ?

>>9599464
probably yeah. Its clear from her history (her mother was an insane lady) that she was kinda psycho but thats probably what drew him to her.
She quickly started fucking again after he died but she felt bad about.

Has anyone done an FOIA on Wallace? What did they learn?

>>9599631
i just gave you all the interesting tidbits and youre still not satisfied.
he was just a man.
>>9599387
i shouldn't have to explain it. Basicaly he's playing Barthes game of "there is no way of knowing the author's intent" deliberately and yet still contradicting his points by using the reader's intuition (whiich so many of you apparently lack)

>>9599670
Sorry for not being in wallacian studies, my pleb uni doesnt have them

>>9599670
do any other scholars share your opinion or have a similar reading? or have you uncovered this secret?

>>9600246
i consider myself an expert in the field of meme trilogies and general wallace studies.
I have the respect of some towering people based on my research/readings and someday I intend to make a film version of the novel.
There's a lot good readers out there. Not many are as vocal as me however. I'm kind of a show off.

>>9600292
names of these researchers? Interested in an actually organized argument that shares your perspective

>>9600358
so you cannot even supply the name of one that comes close to what youre saying?

>>9600329
read the wikipedia page. Lots of studies.
None of them refer to the idea directly. Instead they employ the off-shooting suggestions to make more specific, directed arguments of their own.

>>9600366
you can't take my word for it?
It's a conversation

>>9600371
i just find it strange that someone who claims to be such a perspicacious reader of wallace cannot supply the name of one other person doing research on him.

>>9600366
basically none of the papers will acknowledge the deliberate fraudulence of certain parts of the novel.
there's a reason why the fraud audit exam takes place right before the fogle novela (this part is most true to what actually happened that led him to the service aka authorhood/(dom?))

>>9600374
don't trust academics on wallace yet.
trust me they have an agenda to achieve by employing his "image".
TPK essentially tears it down in a beautiful way

File: falcon.jpg (12KB, 236x348px) Image search: [Google]

12KB, 236x348px

Only good part of the book is when he wakes up
in that lovecraftian world with a falcon hunter who he's tryna bang

>>9600385
wtf are you talkign about

>>9600384
well I suggest you start writing an article or book about it. I'm skeptical of what youre saying but it's interesting nonetheless and at least plausible. If you believe in this interpretation that strongly I really hope you do express your thoughts, I would read it

>>9600399
I'm not an academic.
I don't write well (if you haven't noticed) which is part of my attraction to wallace out of all the meme-trilogy (my field of expertise). His prose is more like how i think.
As i mentioned before i do plan on making a screenplay of the novel that will hopefully serve as a strong companion. It will be more about David's last days but with enough references to the book that you could read it again and it would feel new.

>>9600418
I guess in reality it would be more of an adaptation of bough down.

>>9600426
I can't tell if you're a lunatic, an extreme ironist, an idiot, or a dedicated reader of Wallace but I wish you luck on your project.

>>9600436
this is gonna sound cliche but I get that a lot.
I'm dedicated to certain books to a fault. Wallace in particular. The only irony about me is that i'm actually a really nice guy.

>>9600436
thanks though

I can't sleep because I'm sick and I want to see discussion itt
Post something interesting, fags

>>9598647
My copy of it got stolen by crackheads, most likely by accident, from my Jeep in Taos, NM.

So I have no idea, OP.

>>9602507
I wonder if those crackheads read it and got litpilled

>>9602604
Most likely not. It just happened to be in an unmarked duffel back in my car, and my guess is that another vehicle was coming to the trailhead parking lot and so they got spooked and took the only bag they didn't get a chance to look through. It probably got thrown out or is in a used bookstore somewhere in New Mexico by now.

>tfw I'm back on the East coast and will never be able to go find that exact copy again in a used bookstore

>>9600418
The Pale King could make a good tv show with great 80s a e s t h e t i c s

I will never not laugh at the greatly deserved ridicule of this hack fraud. Why bother reading someone who couldn't even live with himself?

The only sincere moment in the life of David Foster Wallace was when he kicked away the chair. The rest of his life was a lie, the new sincerity was a joke whose punchline was the creaking of a leather belt around the rafter.

His literary career was a menagerie of self help lies told to keep his depression at bay - the audience pussy and drugs were the ghosts at that feast of hypocrisy.

The depression was warranted because behind all the gimmicks and the self awareness and the bandannas was no discernible talent.

File: heh.jpg (357KB, 750x500px) Image search: [Google]

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>welcome to the water

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>>9603436
mmmhahaha
welcome to the water, kid

>>9598647
Currently reading it, fucking fantastic.
Much more insightful piece of work than le quirky drug addicts and their search for le ultimate pleasure.

>>9604789
Post a passage

>>9604789
Just googled a passage so whatever
It was the obetrolling passage
>tfw he described my autism better than I could had ever done it
I even have used some adhd pills and got a pretty similar high to what he is describing, I think it is some sort of controlled psychosis/mania
But I stopped using them because they also trigged the depressions :(
If I relate too much to the way this guy writes does it mean I will end up killing myself?

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2MB, 3264x2448px

>>9604965
Not that guy but here's my favourite page so far

>>9598647
i have like 100 pages left and want to finish it before this thread dies, which should be easy

>>9605067
No discernable talent
He can't think
He can't write

>>9605079
I think I'm getting what Bloom was aiming it with this phrase. DFW wrote in a conversational tone that just got his ideas out with minimal effort. There was no effort in trying to construct art it was just speech.

>>9605914
What Bloom meant is that he has zero talent, even in speech

>>9598647
So, it's all tax policy and no dragons and shit? Fuck that

>>9606295
this is a samefag post.
stop bumping this thread.

>>9606303
it was my first post in the thread, but how about another post?

>>9606303
>>9606307
another?

>>9606303
>>9606307
>>9606310
perhaps just one more?

>>9606303
>>9606307
>>9606310
>>9606319
i'm not bothering you, am i?

>>9606319
its just disingenuine. you come in making an unfunny "aw shucks look at me" joke, a pretty classic bump maneuver, and then you make spite-bumps to the thread even though discussing something that you dont like?
still seems fishy
it doesnt add up

>>9606333
I liked the book. I'm sorry you're a sensitive little bitch that gets upset at suspected samefagging. Also, if you enjoy the topic why would you care that the thread was bumped? Do you receive desktop notifications when a new post is made? Did it distract you from something and then irritate you because you thought it was a shitpost? I'm sorry, faggot.

I havent read infinite jest because for some reason I think I will not like it
But TPK has always catched my attention
The only Wallace I've read was good old neon, not bad but neither outsanding, made me giggle a few times but it also felt a little tryhard
Based on this info, would you, wallacian experts, reccomend me to spend my holy money to buy TBK?

>>9606349
>liked the book
>made this post: >>9606295
>claiming not to be a bump-agent
I want tihs thread to die because it's old. we get too many dfw threads, this one doesnt need to be special

>>9606358
Hey everyone, make sure to only praise a work and don't attempt to joke about it. Also, lame meme references aren't allowed. No fun policy is hereby in effect because this faggot said so.

>>9606367
if that's what you really think is fun or worthwhile discussion someone should stab you in the face
if you're gonna bump at least have something to contribute or say

>>9606357
no. Buy Oblivion if anything, but if you found neon tryhard don't even bother, Oblivion is like Nabokov taking on corporate America

>>9606408
I enjoyed the obetrolling passage more than all of gon
Maybe try hard isn't the right word

>>9599467
>>9599409

I need a source from Karen's book on that.... David would curl up next to Karen at night and say "never leave me please." and Karen decided to stay a widow after his death.

>>9606512
>David would curl up next to Karen at night and say "never leave me please."
Source on this?

>>9603024
This.

>>9606512
i dont know how obligated i feel to provide that.
and as if there aren't dichotomies in any relationship... david would be the first to admit he was a complicated guy. He even continued to "pretend" for a several days that their relationship was going to be okay before he killed himself (he had it planned out)
a way of showing her what she was going to miss.
It's complex and kinda sadistic but you gotta understand he kinda did this to himself.
If you read the book about half the story is about her childhood.
there are parallels between her character and toni ware throughout the novel (bad relationship with marble-lost moms being a theme of that family) but ultimately ware is an aspect of wallace as well, much like meredith rand [think her long rant about her unresistable beauty in the meybeyer's [my buyers] pub), his feminine self.
In the end Ware fakes an injury for sympathy (her first name bieing a toni morrison and sopranos reference[her mother was killed identically to chrissy {a christ figure} in the last season]) sends off a series of bricks attached to "return-postage-paid" slips to a bunch of marketers. Think about the density of the book

>>9606571
>If you read the book about half the story is about her childhood.

I'm referring ot Bough down here

>there are parallels between her character and toni ware throughout the novel (bad relationship with marble-lost moms being a theme of that family) but ultimately ware is an aspect of wallace as well, much like meredith rand [think her long rant about her unresistable beauty in the meybeyer's [my buyers] pub), his feminine self.

from here on out I'm referring to TPK

>>9606435
that's from the "irrelevant" soliloquy. The best part of the book and actually justifies buying the whole book

>>9606596
its actually a novella in a way

The only one of DFWs books i've read is TPK. I was intrigued by the themes of boredom and the characters, but I also feel quite a bit went over my head. All I really know about Wallace is that he thinks there should be a return to structure after postmodernism ( but that's only from a fuzzy quote I read on /lit/ sometime back). Should I finally start IJ, read a short story or perhaps start a biography to get to know Wallace better?

>>9598647
No discernable talent
He can't think
He can't write

>>9606520
It's in the book somewhere. I don't have it and I can't find an online copy.

>>9606571
>>9606574

You're committing the postmodern reduction of people into their social-contexts. Sure there were problems in her childhood and sure there were issues in their relationship, but they were still married. There's no mention of cheating on either sides in the book, so we can't assume it happened, especially because there's no proof of it. DFW has had a history of cheating admittedly, but if you're super depressed, you're not going out of the house to actively sleep with anyone. And if you are, your wife would be able to figure that out easy.

Simply put, they loved each other. Here's a quote (which I would greatly appreciate if you could provide one to back up your argument): "I want to bash these two small people [Wallace's parents] together and see if a collision of their DNA will give me my life back."

You also are ignoring that parallels between a work of fiction and real life do not necessarily imply that what happened in the fiction happened in real life. DFW might have wrote something inspired by his feelings for the situation he's in, but that doesn't mean he literally acted the way his characters did. When we're in relationships, we feel tempted to do bad things of course, but that doesn't mean we act on those feelings. (There is also, no source, as far as I recall of Dave ever hitting Karen).

>>9606683
looooooool
you have no idea what you're talking about
he was screwing his students man.
He was in trouble financially, career-wise and romantically.

>>9606683
what do you think the backbone chapter is about?
a boy focusing on the obstacle of his back and the pain required for him to "know all of himself" by kissing every inch of his body (back pain a problem david was dealing with in the weeks approaching his death).
This is a thinly veiled metaphor for suicide.
his father, grown cynical, is unable to reach or understand the child.
The child is approaching pubescence much like David's professional career.

"Thus began the father’s true cycle of torture, in which the number of women with whom he was secretly involved and to whom he had sexual obligations steadily expanded, and in which not one of the women could be let go or given cause to detach and break it off, even as each became less and less a source of anything more than a sort of dutiful tedium of energy and time and the will to forge on in the face of despair."

>>9606683
you need to learn to read subtext.
It's all in bough down.
Its an ambiguous book much like wallace's work.
Learn to read is all i can advise.

>>9606683
>There is also, no source, as far as I recall of Dave ever hitting Karen).

My filling fell out one night while he cried. I found it in my pocket later and tried to soften the edges with a nail file by the his and hers sinks.

this passage is loaded.

>>9606696
You're mixing up timelines. He certainly could have been screwing his students in Emerson College but when he was married? He did do a lot of shaddy stuff during his Infinite Jest tour as well. But there's no proof (unless its in the biography... but I don't remember that either) to suggest he cheated on his wife.

He had a super nice house after IJ and was very well-off. That said, I am not discounting the 2008 Stock Market crashes as something that could worsen his depression.
>>9606717
In the D.T Max book, we find that Wallace hated his body, commenting on how it was insufficient in several ways. Wallace couldn't love himself... he was depressed after all.

If you read Good Old Neon or Brief Interviews with Hideous Men, you realize Wallace struggled with feeling like a fraud. Your reading of Wallace is too simple: people aren't just their social conditions. Part of why Wallace committed suicide was because his academic/professional identity felt so fraudy.

The passage you quote is a lovely one. I don't see why you would conclude it meant that he cheated on his wife. It could simply be repressed guilt at cheating on all the other people he was in a relationship with.

>>9606726
You sound like a psychoanalysist. I do know how to read. I can give a biographic reading of Wallace's ouevre, but I don't hold it to be the 'truth' - its as significant as reading Wallace with tenets of Russian Formalism or Wallace as a conduit to a certain milieu.

That said, there are autobiographical elements in all of Wallace's works. But to say that what happens in the book happens in real-life would be... untrue.

>>9606750
This is ambiguous, however, I can see where you're coming from here. So I concede my point.

>>9606770
No DT Max made a deliberate point not to include the details surrounding his last days. Listen to his interviews, he had reservations but wanted to maintain a certain respect. It's actually widely known however, what was ocurring.

do you remember the part about her finding his "simulated" overnight bags? where do you think he was going?

>>9606778
I don't. Point me to the part in the book?

Thanks.

>>9606778
first chapter:
The mouth of the volvo opens to reveal sometihng coiled: cotton paisley affixed to the garedn hose with electrical tape. Your simulated overnight bag reeks of american spirits, a few puzzy pills caught in the seems. On the backburner a mercury-filled tooth crumbles.

if you cant put this together theres no hope for you

>>9606822
If we accept that the second sentence means he cheated on her, what do the first and third sentence say?

And what does it mean that 'a few puzzy pills' get caught in his bag's seems?

I don't understand why you have to be so rude about regardless.

>>9606856
I'm mean and this is my favorite book/author so I kinda gotta assert dominance sorry.
First is referring to a remnant of his failed suicide attempt by carbon monoxide poisoning.
The last one is referring again to when he hit her (it's the tooth).
It's a triptych of sorts. They're all related.

>>9606869
also te pills just suggest he never really overcame his addictions.
it's all implied.
art is like that.
the greatest aspects of TPK are almost entirely in the subliminals.

>>9606869
It's okay. He's my favorite author too. We can meet in the middle and be friends because he's our favourite author. You don't have to be mean, a big part of Wallace's message is trying to learn how to not be mean.

The triptych thing is neat; like that one short story in Oblivion about the kid who looks out the windows and imagines stories.

I see where you're coming from. I won't go as far as to suggest that you can discover 'why' DFW killed himself in TPK, because I don't think there's one reason why. It's like trying to understand a person through the keyhole of their room (to paraphrase Good Old Neon). But I concede we can get a glimpse of why he did through a close-reading of the text and subtext of the book. But I will still maintain that while reading Karen's book for autobiographical details is valid, its not as much so with TPK because it falls into the trappings of teleology.

What addictions are you talking about? He was an alcoholic I think, but not addicted to pills (but took them for his depression until they stopped working).

>>9606964
I don't think he was that nice per se.
TPK is literally a pseudo-memoir. Read the thread. He's lying about his life in various forms (I could break it down to you chapter by chapter) but he slips little glimmers of truth in there underneath, codedly. It's a critique of death-of-the-author. He's technically masking but leaves just enough to see through. You arent giving him the proper credit.

the fact that youre surprised that he took pills recreationally and that he was a "nice" guy shows me that you kinda bought into the image. It's not so simple man.

>>9606977
I think you have an interesting perspective on the book and that for all intents and purposes, its worth your while to give a chapter by chapter break-down.

I agree that he critiques the death-of-the-author in the Pale King.... Although the critique of Barthes is sort of banal now. That said, I think its impressive and a little too ironic that DFW sort of made the phrase 'nature imitates art' in an uncomfortably true way.

Regardless, we sort of collectively agreed that the author isn't totally dead already, so what Wallace is saying isn't anything radical.

That said, if you could provide a system or at least some guidance towards seeing through the 'lies' of the text, this conversation could be more manageable. I'm properly educated in tackling text in a variety of different ways and I know a significant amount about Wallace so I can learn quickly.

I wouldn't be surprised if he took pills recreationally, but that doesn't mean I think he did. I don't think did though.Those could just be pills he took for his depression he sort of gave up taking, which seems like the more reasonable option here.

I agree he's more complicated than just the teddy-bear image the media paints him as. But I think we also reduce him to a sort of scumbag if we think all he does is for pussy or fame or money or something. Sure, everything he does is partially motivated on that, but there's a real part of him also that is trying to be nice (just as there is a real part of him trying to try to be nice... and trying to create the image of niceness for fame) - its all the struggle between these parts, so much so, that I don't think he coded messages in the TPK... just expressed himself.

>>9607017
im gonna try it briefly and in sections until i get bored. feel free to ask questions.

§2 Sylvanshine on the plane
-a cruciform shape flying high above the world. it seems slower down there.
The fear that he's about to lose it.

§3 –short dialogue about masturbation and tits
"what do you think youre doing right now"

§4 – – newspaper article about dead guy found at his desk
Blumquist AKA "good ghost dave" (the other ghost is bad dave)

§5 – p. 29 – perfect boy (Steyck)
dave as he would have liked to be

§6 – p. 36 – Lane Dean contemplates abortion (“Good People”)
-Wallace arguably was the dean of his lane. He never had kids. His work was essentially his child.

§7 – p. 44 – Sylvanshine in an ice cream truck
-mr squishee truck. remember what that story in oblivion was about?

§8 – p. 53 – Toni Ware is poor

you can overcome trauma. lots of stuff here, but mainly as a female you will always be a target (think the LEER reference)

§9 – p. 66 – Author here; DFW character’s intro & background
self-explanatory. how he joined "the service" aka authorhood

more to come.

§10 – p. 86 – Bureaucracy is not a closed system
think about it

§12 – p. 89 – Steyck as an adult being overly friendly
people hate truly good people. they're annoying.

§13 – p. 91 – David Cusk sweating as a boy
this is very biographical.

§14 – p. 100 – IRS documentary video, more about 14 interviews
thematic stuff mostly

§15 – p. 118 – Sylvanshine, fact psychic
"use your intuition" THIS IS KEY

§16 – p. 122 – Lane Dean smoke break (“A New Examiner”)
people are cruel and clique-ish, social interactions are often distant

§17 – p. 127 – IRS men as heroes monologue
humility is for fools essentially. other more positive twists imaginable

§18 – p. 128 – desk names are back (on camera)
David is not the pale king, the pale king is gone. "but the smart ones use the desk name as a tool". get it?

§19 – p. 130 – 1980s politics/civics lesson
this chapter again serves to remind you of the activity youre engaging in

§20 – p. 150 – Toni Ware’s dogs; “I’ll kill you”
underneath it all, we are savages for the things we love

§21 – p. 152 – Audit/fraud investigation
an examination of a tax fraud... coincidentally ocurrs just before:

§22 – p. 154 – Chris Fogle, wastoid novella
the most clearly autobiographical section of the novel, again codedly.

>>9607049

§23 – p. 253 – dream: rows of faces & boredom
the school system of education is essentially doomed. there must be another way.

§24 – p. 256 – Author here, arrival in Peoria, Self-Storage Parkway, the mixup
Confused with the higher up from Rome. Christ parallels. He gets head from a confused low-level worker his penis seems larger than it could really be 'realistically speaking"

§25 – p. 310 – everyone turns pages
meta scene. every love story is a ghost story

§26 – p. 314 – examiners phantoms & ghosts
description of good and bad ghost dave that sit with you while you read

§27 – p. 317 – Rotes orientation; Cusk sweating it
A couple have a passive agressive debate while giving a presentation. David cusk is unconfrotable with meredith rand sitting behind him.

§28 – p. 346 – 10 Laws of IRS Personnel
no one is happy. they all want more.

§29 – p. 347 – dog shit stories; Fat Marcus sits
essentially the big shit that kicked off his career. "big jew" invovement and pain from a surreallist artist named diablo (he mentions "juice" that helped get him into the service on his time away from schooL). this is a good chapter and is entertaining in itself.

§30 – p. 356 – internal espionage dialogue
"what am i machine?" the answer is yes

§31 – p. 371 – Shinn on surveillance
he hears the birds but suddenly realizes that they might be yelling war crys and his spirit dips. shin being the weakest part of the person.

§32 – p. 373 – The Exorcist on the speakerphone
"let jesus fuck you"
its a reference to the ghosts youre communicating with. there is a turn of the screw reference here too. It seems like a joke right?

>>9607034
I can accept most of these readings. They aren't too off course from a close reading of the text and bring to light small nuances that reinforce Wallace's proclivity to detail.

§6 – p. 36 – Lane Dean contemplates abortion (“Good People”)

I think you might be reading it too biographically and not political enough. Wallace did express his opinion on abortion in "Usage and American Authority."

>>9607049
"Bureaucracy is not a closed system"

Sorry I'm not particularly trained in politics. I'm thinking about it. Is it either a reference to Kafka and the intertextuality of the text/systems or a comment on how bureaucracy forces DFW into suicide?

another question:

>essentially the big shit that kicked off his career. "big jew" invovement and pain from a surreallist artist named diablo (he mentions "juice" that helped get him into the service on his time away from schooL). this is a good chapter and is entertaining in itself.

could you expand on this?

What do you think about all the allusions to religion in his work? (you pointed it out yourself: the cruciform, the Christ parallels, the Jesus stuff. He did try to convert to Catholicism and did attend a Mennonite church as well as had that prayer in his bathroom.

§33 – p. 376 – Lane Dean, bored at work (“Wiggle Room”)
Lane is bored and talks with blumquist. He thinks about his child and how he wil die someday.

§34 – p. 386 – jargon about the Alternative Minimum Tax
here referring to corporations but relevant to later revelations about "dependants" aka children

§35 – p. 387 – Manshardt’s fierce infant (“The Compliance Branch”)
this is merril lehlr. we find that he is subservient to another man's child (Manshardt's kid [man's heart])

§36 – p. 394 – The boy kissing his own body (“Backbone”)
already explained. planned sucide. his inner-child, his only son, is his only true dedication.

§37 – p. 408 – awkward conversation at restaurant (Rand?)
It's really hard to communicate the important things to people

§38 – p. 410 – Author here; technical explanation of identity mixup
problem revealed to be a "ghost" conflation. David throws himself on Stecyck's mercy (it should be noted that stecyk's name is pronounced "stay-stick")

§39 – p. 415 – Band-saw accident
people like stecyck, the kind of person david wanted to be, are often overlooked but are essentially.

§40 – p. 423 – Cusk’s fears, at the psychiatrist
basically fears of impernanence and death.

§41 – p. 425 – Cardwell is demented, a loon
my favorite chapter. Card well, get it? "You let cardwell pick him up?He's a loon! This is Merril's Aid charile! Jesus." last word there for emphasis.

§42 – p. 426 – Rescue Rangers meth binge in college
david was a speed addict and made many bad decisions because

§43 – p. 431 – possible terrorist event; Glendenning’s management style
basically be selective in your attention. most of this isnt real.

§44 – p. 437 – The key to bureaucracy is dealing with boredom
added emphasis to that idea.

§45 – p. 439 – Toni Ware’s mom; catatonia
psychos are almost always made. they cant be saved for the most part.

§46 – p. 444 – Meredith Rand’s story (with Drinion the levitator)
mere-death. levitator. think a hanging. a bad marriage and a beautiful irresistiable woman in a bar muybeyers (my-buyers)

§47 – p. 510 – Toni Ware incident at the convenience store
self-harm by a self-inflicting victim. is a vengeful person.

§48 – p. 517 – Someone dosed the iced tea (or knives?) at the picnic
this chapter is great. deliberately falls apart like a drug trip. some hints: the knives were a staple of "diablo the left handed surrealists" art peices
glendenning starts hallucinating his frigid wife and his stillborn child

§49 – p. 527 – Fogle is debriefed by Sylvanshine and Reynolds
basically get ready to depart. youre going to meet the man behind the automation (God)

§50 – p. 537 – You become aware of the body; it is nothing like sleeping
david died

>>9607116
its funny. he sneaks a yahweh reference in subsection 2 when stecyck is thinking about the yaw of the plane.
Essentially David's family were made of academics. The business is run mostly by jews who are also often academics. His achieving his career was a combination of both practical connections and almost inhuman sufferings

> Kafka and the intertextuality of the text/systems
Bingo. helps with understanding Sylvanshines random fact intuition and what it really is

>>9607137
What do you mean by 'almost inhuman sufferings'? You mean his depression in his harvard years?

I understand that David got where he was in part because his family had connections. I don't understand the emphasis on Jews which makes it seem a little too conspiracy.

What exactly do you think the meaning of the religious iconography is though? Like how does it relate either to Wallace's message or his life?

And what 'really is' 'use your intuition'?

>>9607173
he's joking about the jew thing. It's not a conspiracy. Part of how the book works is he's playing on people's expectations. He even makes a joke "he was jewish but i dont think that ha anything to do with it"

Basically your intuition can be summed up by the shinn scene. Always remember that we're all nasty,seflish, monsters. David was no different. He had a kind of god-complex. He had good intentions though. His self-importance had an agenda.

>>9607173

a poem mary karr wrote for him

I hope you’ve been taken up by Jesus
though so many decades have passed, so far apart we’d grown
between love transmogrifying into hate and those sad letters
and phone calls and your face vanishing into a noose that
I couldn’t
today name the gods
you at the end worshipped, if any, praise being
impossible for the devoutly miserable. And screw my church who’d
roast in Hell poor suffering
bastards like you, unable to bear the masks
of their own faces. With words you sought to shape
a world alternate to the one that dared
inscribe itself so ruthlessly across your eyes, for you
could not, could never
fully refute the actual or justify the sad heft of your body, earn
your rightful space or pay for the parcels of oxygen you
inherited. More than once you asked
that I breathe into your lungs like the soprano in the opera
I loved so my ghost might inhabit you and you ingest my belief
in your otherwise-only-probable soul. I wonder does your
death feel like failure to everybody who ever
loved you as if our collective cpr stopped
too soon, the defib paddles lost charge, the corpse
punished us by never sitting up. And forgive my conviction
that every suicide’s an asshole. There is a good reason I am not
God, for I would cruelly smite the self-smitten.
I just wanted to say ha-ha, despite
your best efforts you are every second
alive in a hard-gnawing way for all who breathed you deeply in,
each set of lungs, those rosy implanted wings, pink balloons.
We sigh you out into air and watch you rise like rain.

>>9607239
>>9607196

I agree and that is a lovely poem. I'm off to bed soon (or well to read some Gaddis for a bit anyways). But I think your comments on Wallace are very interesting. Would you ever care to continue to converse on email?

>>9607277
sure anytime.
sorry im kind of a dick to strangers.

>>9607287
Duly noted, I'll send you an email when I have something to say :).

Don't worry about it, I understand.

>>9598647
10/10, easily my personal top 5

My favorite part is probably the dude who became an IRS agent by sheer accident and up until that point he was a giant 80s cliche wastoid. The scene with the dad walking in on him and his friends ripping bongs was great.

>>9606778
>widely known
Is this why BEE thinks he's such a piece of shit

Tell us about the conspiracies in IJ and Oblivion too. And who are you, what do you do for work?

>>9607287
im just saying man, you and the other guy seem really intelligent.

I'm just a young kid who's interested in wallace's personality (I feel like I can relate a lot) and have read infinite jest and half of the pale king so of course I don't have anything approaching you two guys' level of understanding and comprehension of Wallace's work, but anyway I found it extremely interesting none the less.

I especially enjoyed how, like, respectful etc. you both were to each other and how at various stages your hostility was broached and you admitted to it as opposed to lashing out in response.

At first I thought you were just the typical fag trolling to get responses then as I read further and further down the thread I'm fully convinced that you're genuine.

Anyway, not sure what the point of this is, maybe I just want to be validated and for you to hear my thoughts as you really are interesting (the ocd autistic guy).

Thanks for your insight, and thanks for the conversation which has kept me entertained for a good 35 minutes.

>>9608875
Also wowza that poem from mary karr re wallace is so so beautiful and, I dunno, gave me such an insight. Thank you for sharing.

>>9598835
>>9598822
it is unfinished only in the sense that he might have written further drafts. its not unfinished as in the end is missing or any other important section.

>>9607123
how do you deal with the retarded dfw haters around here?

>>9609167
i mostly just assume they haven't read or understood him. And y'know, i kinda just tune it out. You gotta be selective in your attention. That's kinda the theme of his work.
A lot of people buy into the 'image' or, as he called it, 'the statue' of himself and then have a sort of visceral reaction to the flawed person he portrayed, when really the most fraudulent thing about him was his insistence that there was something fraudulent inside him deep down. in my opinion this was true honesty/sincerity/authenticity but most people aren't able to be that real with themselves it seems.

>>9598647
Wallace-Obsessive Man! Any interesting and original thoughts on Good Old Neon?

the dfw autist is vague and condescending; i am not impressed

>>9611311
this 2bh

>>9611322
>>9611311
That's good. I don't necessarily want to be understood entirely, not yet anyway. I can explain it in great detail believe me but it's simply not worth my time. It's all very complicated.
Call it condescending, i just call it honest/true.
>>9611303
Well the first thing you have to know about GON is that it's not actually about Dave. Dave only appears in the last page or so, he's just protecting his own personal feelings onto a real person he looked up to back in high school who died in 1990

>>9612099
it's worth mentioning that this common misconception as well as the role of 'himself's suicide in IJ probably caused David to feel some obligation to die. This would explain the deliberate suicide-note nature of TPK.

When Meredith Rand [consider the Randian career component of his suicide] is describing her broken marriage she repeatedly mentions her husband's 'bad heart', an issue that causes him to refer to himself as 'the walking dead'. David likely felt this way in his last years.
The arc of this marriage was actually Karen's main hope for part 2 of the novel [she was eventually going to settle with Drinion and realize she was unhappy there too]
David decided this happy ending was unnecessary and the rest of those redemptive ending ideas were tossed.

I'm looking at all your replies in this thread and I gotta ask, have you read any of the earlier drafts of stuff in tpk? Because some of the points of the stories you're mentioning don't relate to the early drafts at all so I think you may be a little off base with some of these things

>>9613137
if youre referring to the 4 chapters included in paperback there were contradictions that were pretty clearly discounted as they were in, what you describe as, early drafts.
You can kinda tell where the edits were made really, which parts were always supposed to be in a part 2 and which were not.
But otherwise i'd be curious to hear what early drafts youre referring to. Do you mean the papers in texas?

>>9613151
No not the four chapters, I'm talking about this:

https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/much-little-history-david-foster-wallaces-pale-king/

>>9613804
>https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/much-little-history-david-foster-wallaces-pale-king/
yeah if you read that you can literally follow the course of his spirit dying. The original ideas are more hopeful. You have to realize that he was in and out of mental facilities multiple times from the period of 2005 til his death. He was having a lot of issues. It became what it is. Like i said, just read the book, the arc i describe is deliberately there and it can be understood implicitly.

>>9598861
for some reason I read your comment with a Henry Miller voice. I can almost picture him saying it
>tf you probably are Henry Miller