Book of the New Sun

>>9582918
>tell me what think
Kys

>>9582918
severian had a small peenus and all those time when he banged something he was liying

>>9582918
Read it 3 times.
What's it about? Severian slowly coming to terms with the scholastic vision of the universe and playing the role God intended him to have, as a prophet who brings punnishment and a new start.

>>9583209
>the scholastic vision of the universe

What? I don't remember this. Isn't it just him finding out that mankind once had an intergalactic empire, but Urth lost contact with it?

I read Shadow of the Torturer, and was not motivated to continue the series. The setting was interesting, but I just didn't care about Severian, or the cardboard cutout women who threw themselves at him.

book of the negro sun

>>9584048
oh you again you plebo

>>9584048
>You will never ravage Jolenta's creamy amplitude in a rowboat while Dorcas weeps and lovingly fries you an egg on shore
Feels pretty alright, actually.

File: image.jpg (32KB, 255x352px) Image search: [Google]

32KB, 255x352px

>>9584048
Lmao. You're dumb!!

File: 14937247_1055339221244932_3458785125219266135_n.jpg (28KB, 480x360px) Image search: [Google]

28KB, 480x360px

I just finished it. Its a masterpiece. Wolfe does clever things with language, setting, and allusion. There's a lot of philosophy that most readers might not catch.

Also, I don't think many people realize how difficult it is to render such a complicated setting through first person narration. Severian's characterization was interesting, but since most readers these days read like young adults you get idiots like >>9584048 who don;t understand the nuances in Wolfe's philosophic discussion within his series.

I'd be more specific but I'm short on time at the moment.

>>9584495
>There's a lot of philosophy that most readers might not catch.
Where was Kant in it?

You may be short but it should be precise enough for me to locate it within the narrative.

>>9584048
Wolfe unironically writes the best women in science-fiction.

>>9584495
Return when you have more time. There is no such thing as too much praise for Gene Wolfe.

>>9584020
...? No. Why didn't you finish the actual novel?

>>9584506
Kant wasn't in it, but there's a lot of general Catholic theology and Aquinas. He talks of formal and efficient causes in some places and as a whole it is littered with ideas on Providence.

>>9582918
It intentionally confuses the reader. It does so in a strong way.

I don't know all the reasons why it does this. In fact I think there are too many reasons why to bother trying to explain it.

>An ape with the head of a dog ran down the aisle, paused at my bed to look at me, then ran on.

The whole premise of his eidetic memory making him a reliable narrator is matched by the realization that he lies, can only tell you what he thought he saw, and makes careful omissions all the time. It annoys me to the point that I'm on my 4th reread.

Severian generally avoids writing about how he really felt. He doesn't often tell you the real reason WHY he does something. His narration constantly alternates between what he observes, then what he did to what he observed. But he rarely stops to justify to you what he did, even though he'll go on big tangents on about whatever else. It can make you think he is like a child at times, or sometimes a robot, but it's a mistake to think either of those things. The less he wants to dwell on an action he did, the shorter his description of it, or in a few times he'll omit his action altogether and only through narration later does it reveal what his actions were. This is a clever way to show us either Severian's guilt or pride.

Even though it is first person narration, unlike a common shallow young adult novel, Gene Wolfe does not throw away the deep complexities of self-image. Severian generally refuses to talk about how he sees himself directly, but his writing style alludes to what he's really like, and we also have how the other characters treat him, which we must rely upon heavily to really know Severian.

>There is a dialogue in the brown book somewhere between two mystes, in which one argues that culture was an outgrowth of the vision of the Increate as logical and just, bound by interior consistency to fulfill his promises and threats. If that was the case, I thought, surely we will perish now, and the invasion from the north, that so many have died to resist, is no more than the wind that topples a tree already rotten.
>Justice is a high thing, and that night, I was young, so that I desired high things only. Perhaps it was for the same reason that the love of living things, which I had felt so strongly as a child, had declined until it was hardly more than a memory when I found poor Triskele bleeding outside the Bear Tower. Life, after all, is not a high thing, and in many ways is the reverse of purity. I am wise now, if not much older, and I know it is better to have all things, high and low, than to have the high only.

tl;dr Book of the New Sun is about a boy and his dog.

>>9585258
>>9586689
It took a whole day, but here are some thinking wolfefags.

I always wondered if it was possible to make an adaptation of The Book of the New Sun

>>9587527
Hell no

Think about how much would have to be cut out

>>9587527
Yes it is, but compare the Dune novel to Star Wars. Multiple levels of meaning would need to be relegated and only hinted at.

>>9587562
that's not even the real reason. the book doesn't work without its words

>Chilliarch
>mispelling of Earth as Urth
>Orichalk
>It might have been the snarling face of Jurupari, or perhaps a map, and it was wreathed with letters I did not know. I rubbed it away with my foot.

when read, all these intentionally mysterious things we do not understand form these vague allusion spots in our imaginations.

You can't adapt that.

>>9582918
May anyone spare a link for a humble poorfag?

>>9587790
It's on tpb and libgen and just about everywhere. Just Google it.

>>9587747
>It might have been the snarling face of Jurupari, or perhaps a map, and it was wreathed with letters I did not know. I rubbed it away with my foot.

What is he referencing when he says this?

>>9587980
>the orichalk was gone. In its place - and no doubt with its edge - a design had been scratched on the filthy stones.

end of chapter 29. it had to have been something Agia had done- but what exactly is a mystery

>>9588053
it is partially to indicate how spooky agia and agilus are. the act of creating the glyph reveals that they are superstitious people who dabble in urth's answer to voodoo, in contrast to their relative gregariousness earlier in their meeting with severian. it's a form of degeneracy that comes with a decaying world.

>>9588129
>gregarious
let me correct myself, i was referring to agia, not so much agilus, who is a creepy sociopath, who only dispenses a torrent of words when trying to dupe people into his autistic worldview.

File: moonn.png (3MB, 2560x1440px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 2560x1440px

>>9587547
>>9587562
there is an element of Severian's vastly different alien understanding of things to us

>an armored figure standing in a desolate landscape. It had no weapon, but held a staff bearing a strange, stiff banner. The visor of this figure's helmet was entirely of gold, without eye slits or ventilation; in its polished surface the deathly desert could be seen in reflection, and nothing more

a picture we would instantly recognize, and the effect would be lost in a physical adaptation

>>9582918
it's not good

/thread

>>9588129
>>9588142
Agia is nutso

>>9588142
if you actually believe this, then you are indeed merely a fan, and relegated to experiencing great works with the intellectual limitations of indeed a mere fan.

>>9588202
I'm confused. How is he wrong?

>>9588209
i quoted the wrong anon, i meant >>9588158

him and the other anon's interpretations of those characters and passages are not what's wrong, it's >>9588158 's autistic insinuation that the movie adaptation would have to have a 1:1 correlation to the books, which is of course, fucking stupid.

is Book of the New Sun an optimistic sci-fi or a pessimistic sci-fi

>>9588660
pessimistic in broad terms

>>9588660
optimistic. the wicked are punished and mankind thrives in harsh times after eons

>>9587747
>mispelling of Earth as Urth
it's not a mispelling

>>9589070
how is it not a mispelling

Is it in the far distant future or a universe that existed before our own

>>9589173
The implication seems to be that Apu Panchau and Korea are both things that existed before Severian's time. Either the witch's ritual could make things from other dimensions appear and this other dimension had its own Korea or it's our world's future. Also English or a language bearing an uncanny resemblance to it had to exist at some point. Somewhere in Thecla's memory an ancient language is mentioned that uses the same word for 'current time' and 'gift', of course meaning 'present'.

>>9589187
And of course I forgot that Jonas recognizes the roots of classical Greek mythology in the story Severian tells him. But considering that he explodes himself out of existence using mirrors shortly after this I think that Jonas knowing about the same things we do can be used as evidence for both theories since I have no idea where the hell he goes.

does severian fucking his grandmother have any significance or is it just shock value?

>>9589214
I've always wondered this too. Severian unintentionally rezzing Dorcas right at the beginning of the story is an early hint that the abilities he attributes to the claw are actually his own and the instinctive closeness they immediately feel towards each other is explained by their being related but beyond that I don't really know at all. I doubt it's shock value though, Wolfe doesn't really do that.

>>9589173
it's very much a far distant future on earth, 5 to 8 billion years in the future.

>>9589232
no it isn't, your time frame is way off. read the book.

>>9589187
>an ancient language is mentioned that uses the same word for 'current time' and 'gift', of course meaning 'present'.

ah shit, how didn't i picked that

>>9582918
Perhaps I'm just not clever enough to appreciate the deeper layers, but I found it pretty boring.

>>9589265
It's genuinely 200% better in subsequent readings when you understand what Wolfe is getting at from the start. Of course there's lots of supplementary stuff that can aid your understanding too. I think that reading Chesterton makes Wolfe's work much more enjoyable.

terminus est is fucking wicked dude. I totally wish I had a fuligin cloak. Its hella cool.

>>9589297
The only people who wear fuligin don't get to wear shirts. It doesn't sound worth it. And Terminus Est is just a big sword that's well made. It's so mundane that I at first thought that your post said 'is fucking wide dude.'

>>9589248
suns running out of fuel, and the ages are defined by the points in time in which the planet runs out of a primary element, such as sulfur, helium, or whatever. All "mines" are excavations of old human ruins. entire ecological systems have formed and migrated over vast distances, and mankind has traveled to the far stars and back.

>>9589297
if you read wolfe and make comments this idiotic, i recommend dropping wolfe and reading sanderson instead.

>>9589302
where does the tradition of not wearing shirts come from?

why do you think terminus est is mundane? in our world's history, there is no sword with an internal cylinder of quicksilver that fluidizes the swing of the blade.

>>9589392
>no shirt tradition
I figured that it was to show off the torturer's physiques (which would presumably be strong from the work they do, making them scarier) and also making them seem like detached hardasses who don't give a shit about the cold. I think that it's just practical reasons for their image.

As for the sword, it's neat but I wouldn't call it wicked. As far as craftsmanship goes it's probably one of the best swords in the commonwealth and would be the best on our earth for sure, but functionally it's a sword that's particularly strong and swings well. Considering that it's the signature weapon of the man who would become the autarch and bring about the New Sun it doesn't seem that remarkable. Most authors would probably make it shoot pure light out of the tip or something, not that that's necessarily a good thing. I actually like how low-key Terminus Est is.

>>9589392
>in our world's history, there is no sword with an internal cylinder of quicksilver that fluidizes the swing of the blade.
that's actually not true

>>9589408
Terminus Est isn't just low key mundane, remember it actually gets destroyed.

>>9589420
>it's not true but i won't substantiate anything

>>9589423
>deconstructions of the invincible sword archetype are mundane, that's all to it

>>9589311
Billions of years is definitely a stretch. The sun isn't running out of fuel, its implied that a black hole was placed inside the Sun during the Age of Typhon, speeding up the process.

>>9589311
>suns running out of fuel
No its not, it had a black hole in it
This was humanities punishment

Speaking of which - what had mankind done wrong, I never figured that out

>>9589408
Don't forget that the torturers seem to have a lot in common with catholic priests

>>9589423
Terminus Est is unusual - pattern forging a sword with a sealed hollow channel filled with mercury should not actually be possible

>>9589542
I think it all has to do with Typhon. He's so heavily implied to be a devil figure that it seems he's the source of this new-age sci-fi Original Sin. I haven't read Long Sun or Short Sun, supposedly his reign is given more detail in those.

>>9589545
What's the explanation for that? Is their patron Saint Katherine the same Saint Katherine that Catholics today know? Were the Seekers of Truth and Penitence once a branch of the church?

>>9589447
>>9589546
here is a picture of a real-life functional 19th century sword that has a center core filled with ball bearings

I say functional and not a fighting sword because while the sword was designed to withstand abuse and is insanely sharp, much like Terminus Est the effect on its weight makes it good for executioner-style chopping while too unwieldy for actual fighting

>>9589546
instead of a single sealed hollow channel, some chinese swords had a single hole in the blade which was filled with quicksilver and then stoppered. The complexity of this led to other chinese swords imitate with a single hollow cutout which a core could be inserted, but those were all in all fragile and poor.

File: shamshirnew2 (1).jpg (7KB, 163x600px) Image search: [Google]

7KB, 163x600px

>>9589884

>>9589884
So while there are some features to be found in real swords, there are none with a technical aspect exactly like Terminus. You only proved my point.

>>9590605
It's the same concept, stop being autistic

Every time Severian mentions his perfect memory, without exception, there is a mistake in his narration less than two pages worth of text away, and it starts on the very first page, when he attributes a spoken line to the wrong person. It was Roche, not Drotte, that mentioned the pikes.

>>9590631
That's because Severian is a bitch boy

>>9590631
Can you provide additional examples?

>>9590915
I'm not sure it's a mistake as much as it is Severian lying about certain things. Valeria asks him about a "tower where everyone who enters dies in pain in agony" somewhere in the citadel, and Severian says it doesn't exist.

That tower doesn't exist of course, but the Matachin Tower does.

>>9590915
Also the admission of having sex with Thecla is a fairly big one.

>>9590966
I remember that one, though it didn't appear to me entirely as a lie on the surface. If memory serves, this admittance is made by Severian after the false Eucharist where Thecla's conscience is fused with Severian - from here I assumed the two interacted within Severian's mind and in his dreams, at times amorously.

Alternatively, I thought he may have mistakenly conflated the real Thecla and the imposter from the house azure, with whom he did have sex.

>>9590915
After he crashes with the autarch he mentions experiencing the first memory loss of his life, shortly after the mentions his perfect memory once more.

>>9582918
I read Shadow and Claw. Pretty meh. Sort of reminds me why I don't read genre fiction. You can follow the twists and turns of a well-crafted story for 400 pages, but in the end it's only worth diving deeper into it, breaking it down and analyzing it, if it's crafted around some sort of perspective or idea. There's just too little philosophy. It makes it impossible to justify reading the thing in depth.

>>9591299
>too little philosophy
ok bud

>>9591299
It's worth it if it expanded your horizon. Don't be a bildungsroman drone.

>>9591299
>Too little philosophy
He spends pages explaining the thomistic views on laws, justice, state, metaphysics and so on.

>>9591470
>says there was too little philosophy
>expecting philosophy in science fiction
>completely missing the heaps of philosophy in the first two books
>complaining about the lack of philosophy despite his lack of reading comprehension and childish expectations in the first place

jesus christ i hate people on lit sometimes

>you will never have the intellectual education and literary experience required to appreciate the full depth of wolfe's short stories in new sun

File: 9780765302946.jpg (84KB, 432x648px) Image search: [Google]

84KB, 432x648px

I can never get a thread going about this.
Am I the only one who read it?

>>9591842
p-pls respond

>>9591842
You actually are Combiner

>>9591842
There are at least 5 known wolfefags on /lit/, which probably means there are 30 in total, though only a few are smart enough to talk about his work.

>>9592034
Are you a Wolfefag then?
I have some questions about the book.

Okay so to be quite honest, I read and read and reread The Book of the New Sun as both awed by it and because I'm inspired to understand it for Wolfe's meaning, but I am terrible at understanding what Dr. Talos's play is about.

It just completely loses me. I've reread Dr. Talos's play more than any other part of the books and I understand the least of it.

>>9592083
Okay throw them at me then.

I'll be back in about an hour f a m.

File: africa.png (643KB, 1022x731px) Image search: [Google]

643KB, 1022x731px

>>9582918
BotNS's fanbase is one of the most autistic I've ever seen. Every single criticism of the series, even minor ones, are instantly attacked by multiple people, mostly with ad hominem and glib comments instead of actual arguments. I will never read it because I'm either going to not like it, or I'm going to become an unbearable sperg. Lose-lose, man.

>>9592391
>Sheep will bait this poorly.

>>9592302
Have you read Urth of the New Sun? it's been a few years since my last reading of the series but if I remember correctly Talos' play is literally a reenactment of the future.

There is a series of scenes where the Urth is flooding because the new sun has arrived. I think at some point Severian mentions his intention to throw his journal into the black of space or something after chronicling his final adventures and somehow the book falls into the hands of Talos in the past. Giving him the inspiration for the play which Severian unwittingly stars in.

Honestly typing this all out makes me want to dive back in. Thanks fellow Wolfe anons

>>9592391
>BotNS's fanbase is one of the most autistic I've ever seen.
>ad hominem and glib comments instead of actual arguments.

(You)

>>9592391
Did /sffg/ stop replying?

>>9592339
>>9592083

I'll be lurking off and on but I'm sleeping soon.

File: Kiccigiorgi_Ruins_SMTIV.jpg (142KB, 845x444px) Image search: [Google]

142KB, 845x444px

>>9591713
this hurts too much

I am not sure if i am spoiling myself something but i am reading sword of the lictor and i am the part where severian encounters typhoon Where the fuck was he, it was a launching pad for ships? what is with the statue? Rip little severian ;__;

>>9592339
If any of this gets answered in the third book then don't bother:
I understand how the chariot race at the end of the second book ties into the politics but how does it tie into the bigger subplot of Gaea vs Artemis?

What is the significance of the dream involving Polos Latro seems to share with Pasicrates and why does it change the Spartan's mood and behaviour so much?

Did the Spartans kill all the slaves after the ceremony that was supposed to free them?
Why?
Why was Latro spared?

I might not remember this correctly but what happens with the oracle that Pausanias(?) will lead the slaves of the rope makers to freedom? I mean the one that happens after the child sacrifice scene in the first book.

>>9592654
It was a monument for that dude he meets there.

File: botnsmanga.jpg (74KB, 500x500px) Image search: [Google]

74KB, 500x500px

manga when

>>9592699
I can't get over how damn ugly these covers are compared to the original Japanese set. The OG Japanese covers for Sword of the Lictor and Citadel of the Autarch are easily two of the best that have ever been made for Wolfe's work.

>>9592733
Amano is roughly at the same technical quality as the Obata covers. I don't see much of a problem with either, other than that they're not realistically drawn.

Why don't you like the new artwork? It's baroque for a manga style cover for sure.

>>9592791
I can't stand Obata's style. Everyone's too skinny in a weird and effeminate way and there's too much detail in all the wrong places which makes everything look cluttered and busy. Just look at the hair, the bandaged arm or that ridiculous blade he's holding.

>>9592826
These aren't substantial criticisms. First of all, you're overly judgmental in a way that implies a limited worldview. Amano's art is fairly effete itself, though it emphasizes muscularity more. Why did you give Amano a pass for this? Also, there's plenty of room for visual interpretation, and Obata's isn't removed from what Wolfe describes, Wolfe is sparse on details indeed. The effete quality can be attributed to the decay of the world, and as Japan is a world in decay, aspects of their artists' tastes are perfectly compatible with it. I'm not super enthralled by Obata's art, but there is essentially nothing wrong with it. On Urth, men aren't really men, and homosexuality and other depraved acts like cannibalism is a normal thing in their world. It's weird; it's alien; it's Urth--so if it doesn't seem familiar to us, then that only means it isn't wrong. So the streamlined depiction of people aesthetic is fine. And even if it wasn't, Severian describes himself as bony and slim. His lean muscles are even described by an elderly man as resembling corded rope.

The hair is odd, I'll give you that, since Sev's hair is supposed to be black, but that's forgivable compared to the rest, and can be shoehorned in easily, since the young Sev looks up to the red haired Roche. Or, perhaps, the red hair is our artist's distant reference to the mysterious red haired painter Fechin. Furthermore, it could be an idealized portrait that the Autarch Severian commissioned, one that incorporates all the aforementioned details of the lore of Urth. Once again, from that perspective, there's nothing wrong with it.

Your critiques on detail expansion aren't applicable, because they might as well go for Wolfe's prose and storytelling. And we know that wouldn't do. Creative people at their particular level don't do apparently pointless things without good reason. I can see plenty of references to the soul of Severian, whose name is Thecla, as well as Gnostic and Rosicrucian symbolism in Obata's art, that only enhances the intertext of the art, which enlivens the lore of Urth with allusions to our world--the mirror of Urth, and is fully compatible with Wolfe's lore.

Holding a blade you say? Except he's not holding a blade, he is actually wielding a torturer's mask. The blade superimposed over it, is in fact part of the torturer's guild's nightmare machine, placed behind him, that cripples Thecla. And it is placed on the fringe of Severian's figure, upon the mask, but if aligned with the lower hemisphere of the torturer's contraption, it would curve in a way that symbolically beheads him, opening a rich array of scenes in the book, including journeyman Severian's threatened execution-come-exile; his intertwined fate with Thecla, who was doomed to be decapitated; and Severian's taking of a new face--this ties in with the mask--after his exile, which is a form of rebirth, and the sacramental act of baptism.

You need better criticisms.

>>9592934
jesus christ dude

>>9592947
>being awestruck by someone who actually reads and is capable of scholarly thought

>>9592950
hold on i'm being pretentious, how about
>capable of being an autistic sperglord

>>9592934
>you need better criticisms
fuck you I'm not a visual art critic. I don't like it.
>Amano's art is fairly effete itself
He portrays Severian in a more sexy-like-achilles type way. There's nobility and poise to his Severian, while Obata's looks like something a 13 year old drew in his notebook. Actual details like hair colour don't bug me too much, I'm more concerned with overall style. Just because Urth is weird that doesn't mean that any weird style is a good depiction. Amano's 'Citadel of the Autarch' combines Vance-esque weird scenery with a classical heroic look, which I find far more appropriate than Amano's hyper-edgy sleekness.

The hair doesn't bug me for being technically wrong. What I don't like is how effeminate it looks. That and that the level of detail next to his face looks wrong.

And by detail I don't mean the number of things in the background, I mean how much attention is given to wrinkles in his cloak, his individual strands of hair and the lines in the bandages contrasted with the simpler style of his faces. It looks like all of his effort went to the wrong places.

The actual design with the mask, machine and blade all together I don't have a huge problem with. It all looks very busy but that isn't a dealbreaker. It's the style. I don't think that it works as drawn by Obata. 90% of my problem with Obata's work is a personal distaste for how he draws everything. Amano on the other hand I do tend to always like but I think that his Sword and Citadel covers were particularly spot on. I don't actually care much for Amano's Shadow and Claw covers for whatever that's worth.

>>9592934
>On Urth, men aren't really men, and homosexuality and other depraved acts like cannibalism is a normal thing in their world
what

>>9592985
>I'm not a visual art critic.
You've made that very clear.

>He portrays Severian in a more sexy-like-achilles type way.
>ie, my faggots are better than your faggots
You're completely wrong again. For most of human history, men with beards were considered more handsome than those who weren't, and that includes those in Achilles' time. Should we consider Amano's men to be unlikeably weird, just because most of the ages of civilization would think they looked alien for being shaved?

Your views on beauty aren't grounded on beauty, but rather power. Saying one type of fag is more appropriate than another fag misses the point that they're both fags. Your very shaky preference ignores the fact that both art styles are weird, relative to more normal depictions of heroes, therefore your whimsical distinction is invalid, and both styles are acceptable. The problem isn't Obata. It's your narrow view of the world.

Moreover, you missed another point that the younger Severian would have a different physique than the war tested Severian. You're only pointing out that those two Severians are of different age, not any discrepancy in the strengths of either style.

The other details you mentioned are fine. It has a balanced composition and distribution of detail. The detail of the hair contra face is similar to that of sketches of young men by German artists who are universally regarded as good, and are published in standard histories of art. So again, your aesthetic preferences are naive.

>>9593075
Could you stop speaking in autistic principles and directly address something I said?

>>9593080
I did and deconstructed your points. If you can't see that, then you're the autist, and there's no reason to continue this exchange.

>>9593085
If not being able to follow your reasoning makes somebody autistic then that probably makes not only me, but also 99% of this board autistic.

>>9591629
They're a lot of people ITT saying it's full of philosophy but very few posts actually discussing the philosophy. I'm not saying that there is no philosophy, but so much of the plot is clearly just plain plot, and whatever philosophy there is is dispersed pretty widely.

>>9593096
>trying to pin personal faults on everyone else
autists will regress their argument this far back

>>9593103
There are private groups around the internet, including urth.net, with people who really did read Kant, Aquinas, and other thinkers who Wolfe borrowed from.

>>9593103
>many issues have been of more immediate concern than monomachy. Whether it is good or evil(as I am inclined to think), it is surely ineradicable in society such as ours...(on for another page)

Severian covers the moon, mankind, perception, memory, self, justice, ruling, decay, trust, and on and on and on

And those are the things he talks about directly. There are other elements, such as the prison of generations in the antechamber, which he doesn't discuss so straightforward that are themselves a big discussion on behalf of Gene Wolfe.

It's the complete opposite of being widely distributed. It's actually too dense, which is why so many people end up rereading the book multiple times.

>>9593157
>widely distributed.
that's not what he said. distributed is a neutrally applicable term. when he said dispersed, he was using a less vague term. had he said distributed, there would be no problem with your point.

>>9593189
fuck off autismo nobody cares about you

>>9593192
u cared enough to respond

>>9593127
>>9593157
Again, you're both saying that it's full of philosophy, but you're not actually talking about it. Also, just because a character has an opinion about this or that idea doesn't mean that idea is developed within the work. Not to be pedantic, but I would expect somebody to be able to explain to me some of the ideas that I apparently missed, and how they're expressed. This is pretty much a normal expectation, especially for a book apparently full of philosophy. What is theme or idea that is strongly expressed and developed by the book?

>>9591842
I read it
>>9592302
Dr Telos play is based on the story of his adventure that Severian tells when travels into the past
It parallels events that occur later in the book like the confrontation with the monster
Even without reading Uth of the New Sun you should be able to see the parallel
>>9592493
He tells his story while locked up

File: image.jpg (55KB, 292x427px) Image search: [Google]

55KB, 292x427px

>>9592733
The Japanese covers for the wizard knight are pretty nifty

If you want to see something really cool, Leiji Matsumoto himself did artwork for C.L. Moores Northwest Smith and Jirel of Joiry stories

>>9593225
>Justice
Severian is raised a torturer and for most of the story believes that what he does is a necessary social service. Early in Sword of the Lictor he gives an in-depth justification for torture as a means of punishment and why he believes every other attempted form of punishment to be inadequate. At the end of the story he still decides to abolish torture. This isn't due to any strong change in logic, Severian comes to believe that it's simply too cruel for a state to torture its subjects. The practical arguments for torture are made very clearly in its favour but in the end Severian decides to make a humanist decision despite this.

>>9593225
Go back and read chapters you remembered a glimmer of them from. Gene Wolfe isn't even that difficult to read. Faulkner is more of a pain in the ass to read.

If you're asking to be spoonfed, then you're a brainlet, and aren't really the type who purportedly demands a writer's ideas, their development, or their expression.

>>9593240
That's not philosophy, it's sociology.

>>9592493
>>9593230
completely wrong

>>9593248
Its not wrong you cocksmoker, the play mirrors later events in the story

>>9593260
Or do later events in the story mirror history?

>>9593240
That's pretty fair. It doesn't come across as very edifying, but it definitely seems to fit my requirements. Still, there must be a LOT more going on, because many sections of the book aren't about torture, really. Is there a major idea? Or just a bunch of small ones?

>>9593241
I'm not asking to be spoonfed. I'm just saying that, you know, for example, you could summarize The Sound and the Fury as maybe an exploration of family structure and its failures. You could relate everything back to this idea, and track the idea's development with the story. I didn't find any idea like this after reading Shadow and Claw, and so I'm hoping to get some insight (or, really, my argument is that there is no connecting idea, and the book is only just a cute little exploration of an interesting setting, without much deeper to find).

>>9593260
it's wrong if you think the events were later.

>>9593280
If one idea is the major idea it's probably teleology. Does Severian have free will, is he a slave to fate, or a peon enacting the whims of some higher power? This is made much more interesting and complicated by the fact that time travel and future predictions exist in the Solar Cycle.

>>9593281
He confronted the giant in his tower after the play

>>9593240
There's a lot more to it than that. It's not simple at all.

He skips the section of his travel with Dorcas to Thrax where he works as a Torturer and Executioner because he doesn't like it(he probably feels shame or guilt), and there is a point of conflict between Severian and Dorcas because of his work in Thrax as a torturer. He grew to find serious fault in it.

This is the same man who at one point beheaded a person and paraded the head around to show it off to the glee of an audience.

It's very similar to how he talks about monomachy, and makes a very practical argument for it, and simply ends with "but it often lends itself to intrigue" and without further word on it continues with his story on how he died to Agilus on the sanquinary fields just because they wanted to take Terminus Est.

Gene Wolfe had to been intentional about that. "Here's Severian's arguments for these things!"
"And here is Severian abolishing these things"
"Can you figure out why?"

>>9593291
>>9593291
if you're going to be this fucking stupid i will ignore you.

good day to you, you could have been my friend or lover had you been a man of more foresight.

>>9593290
Back to the ultimate backbone of the story, the dog. What was Triskele, really?

>>9593305
dog=god

its as simple as that

>>9593306
I don't think Gene Wolfe would troll everybody like that.

>>9593294
I think I just remembered what he gives as the main reason for abolishing torture which ties much more closely to Severian's relationship with Dorcas than what I wrote but I don't 100% remember if this is it. I think Severian cites cruelty as a valid reason but his main motivation is that the existence of the guild forces decent men to do horrible things. Dorcas was constantly telling Severian that he was good despite the torture and this must have had a stronger effect on him than was immediately obvious. It seems that he doesn't want anybody to have to be told that they're good 'despite the fact that they inflict agony on strangers for a living' ever again.

>>9593305
I think that Tricycle is just an unfortunate dog who Severian felt pity for. He serves several purposes in the story. He shows us that Severian is compassionate and he shows us that Severian's miraculous abilities were with him well before he found the claw. His later appearances I think are just the cacogens showing Severian a comforting form whenever they have to contact him. Malrubius and Tricycle both seem to be forms that the cacogens knew Severian would receive well, making their spooky space messages less frightening.

>>9593317
please stop calling the three legged doggo tricycle

at one point severian describes Triskele as "the ambassador of all crippled things"
and suggests
>Perhaps after all it was my discovery of Triskele, which I have said changed nothing, that in the end changed everything.

everything you say is true, but also Triskele tipped the scales- but any other comforting form might have done the same. It could have been Dorcas, little Severian, or maybe even Thecla. All of these other things represent something in the book, and Triskele is (according to Severian) given the least importance.

Is the answer simply Triskele = Severian's compassion? As soon as you think the answer to this is yes and nothing more, let me remind that Severian ran after Triskele through some dark spooky corridors and came out of the atrium of time and met Valeria

>>9593280
>“Is all the world a war of good and bad? Have you not thought it might be something more?”

One of the most memorable quotes for me, it relates heavily to the gnostic ideas presented to Severian by some of the major characters. The implication of "something more" is Wolfes way of telling us that there are powers at play beyond our comprehension. Is Severian under the influence/control of these higher powers and if so is he capable of exerting his own free will?

This rejection of gnosticism is common in Wolfes work and gets expanded upon heavily in Long Sun.

Wait he had powers before he found the claw?

>>9593360
I'm reading Urth right now, and in Severian's trial all those people who hated him showed up to protect him. Why was Triskele there, or should I say, why did he hate Severian?

>>9593387
Haven't read Urth but I'm pretty certain Severian is the one rezzing the dead. Triskele seems quite dead before Severian arrives and even if he wasn't the recovery seems quite miraculous. Dorcas is revived despite no contact with the Claw and later on after the claw is shattered Severian still seems to be able to rez people. He does keep the little claw shaped bit that was inside it but he finds out not long later that that part was likely nothing special at all as identical claw-things can be found all over the place.

>>9593392
>>9593387
Also I just checked to be sure, Severian and Jonas' water-ewer at the inn they're staying in at the beginning of The Claw of the Conciliator contains high-quality wine. Better than what the inn serves them with their food later. I think that the implication is that it wasn't the inn's that was put their by mistake or something left behind by a previous guest. I think that Severian turned their water into wine without realizing it.

>>9593387
yes, no, conciliator transcends time, it's a theory

Severian drowned in the Gyoll but the claw brought him back(or he never drowned), Severian brought back Triskele (or Triskele was never dead), Severian brought back Dorcas before Severian realized he had the claw (or she was never dead), and so on.

>>9593389
I interpreted it as all the memorable characters from his life. Friends, enemies, and those in-between.

RETURN THE CLAW

>>9592699
新しい太陽の書
Come the fuck on, you couldn't translate that any more lamer
At least go 新太陽譚

>>9593622
What does this mean roughly in English? I can't really imagine how it's possible to fuck up 'Shadow of the Torturer' that badly.

>>9593625
That's the "Book of the New Sun" part
It's not wrong, it's just that their phrasing feels terribly out of place, like the difference between 'Book of the New Sun' and 'New Sun's Story?' Personally the 新しい, new, is what feels off to me.

terrible. no flow, shallow characters, weak plot. there's some philosophical musings and clever phrases in there, but it's a turd. avoid.

take note that all the praise is about discovering something that doesn't exist while reading.

>>9593633
Do you occasionally open /lit/ and post this in the topmost thread? I feel like I've seen this exact post before.

>>9593299
How do you not think the play doesn't depict events that occur later in the book?

So who did the cacogens serve. They were very short-lived right.

And I did not see Baldanders as the satan figure that people call him.

>>9594186
I don't think I've ever heard of Baldanders being considered a satanic figure. Typhon is the obvious satan, with the temptation and promises of power. Baldanders doesn't want to win people over with promises of material gains, he just wants to do insane shit until he's big enough to join Abaia and the gang under the sea.

>>9589392
No shirt look is modeled after Severian himself from what he happened to be wearing when he was imprisoned there when ended up in the past in Urth of the New Sun.

>>9594275
>he just wants to do insane shit until he's big enough to join Abaia and the gang under the sea.

Yeah, and who are they? I know that some of them control the Ascian Empire - what are their end goal?

>>9589550
>Saint Katherine
Probably the same. The coincidence is way too strong given the real St. Catherine's association with torture.

I don't think that "The Seekers of Truth and Penitence" was or were literally a named branch of the Church, but the title could just as easily apply to a priest as to a Commonwealth torturer.

>>9593400
the undine saved him, no the claw

>>9594710
he didnt have the claw at the time. he only had himself. and the undine virtually revealed she was always there.

I like how upset Agia becomes after Dorcas just shows up out of nowhere.
I like how Agia immediately hates Dorcas, before Dorcas even manages to speak.
I like how even Hildegrin seems to favor Dorcas over "lady slop"
I like how Dorcas manages to derail Agia's plot, in all ways.
I like how after Severian rejects Agia and just a day later he's with Dorcas in a storeroom.

the more i read /lit/ comments on this author, the less i want to read him. it's wonderful to think that there are books out there i want to read less than Dosty's Demons.

>>9595785
you say that but wolfeposting is only on the rise. feeble bugbears like you literally dont matter lol

>>9595785
it doesn't matter what you say or think. your opinion is irrelevant and your willful ignorance only harms you. after reading wolfe it became immediately apparent that he is what authors 20 years from now are going to try to emulate. wolfe constantly receives either fierce praise or vicious jealousy from other writers for a reason. /lit/ comments be damned

>>9595591
Gaia was such a giant bitch to Dorcas
I kek'd when she cried about Severian shagging someone else though

>>9595913
>>9595853
boy, you guys really are pretty defensive. it makes me boil with the desire to bait these posts out of you.
man, i never thought i was this kind of person, but now i realize how much i hate you fucking faggot fanboys idolizing some old shit who writes subpar women and pretends to be Vonnegut Jr.

>>9596994
Quality post

>>9596999
nice trips. you know that trip posts are inherently true and cannot be interpreted ironically, despite the intent of the author of said post

File: 1493411332082.jpg (29KB, 332x322px) Image search: [Google]

29KB, 332x322px

Jolenta and Dorcas banged?!?!

>>9596994
No one cares about female characters.

>>9597147
ah, so that's what it is.

gene wolfe fans are /pol/ users. it's all clear now.

>>9596994
>i never thought i was this kind of person, but now i realize how much i hate you fucking faggot fanboys idolizing some old shit who writes subpar women and pretends to be Vonnegut Jr.
haha

also, isn't writing supbar women just realism??

>>9597177
no, it's just an exemplification of the inability to write properly.

it's great to know that this author was just a proto-typical sci-fi author that couldn't even outperform Asimov. i wasn't missing anything after all!

>>9596994
>say an unneccesary comment about why this book sucks
>people tell you to shut up
>boy you guys are pretty defensive i should bait you more haha you MAD xdd :^)

shut up pussy

>>9597208
no. your author sucks balls. you can't even commit to Ulysses i bet.

>>9597199
>this much ressentiment

>2edgy4u torturer mc and his tricycle and harem
>this is supposed to be a deep "philosophical" work

>>9597217
>main character of this guy's book is fucking Severian
christ almighty you're a fucking loser.

>>9597229
>harvesting the lowest hanging fruit on /lit/
Why are you poking their nest? You having a bad night, man? Everyone knows Meme Wolfe is overhyped, why can't you leave them alone?

>>9597229
haha i haven't even read wolfe

>>9597261
neither have i.

>>9596994
i called you names and hurt your feelings, now you're saying you were only pretending to be retarded. doesnt sound that defensive to me.

>>9597256
because i dont read and am a low quality baiting shitposting beta faggot.

>>9597275
i wasn't pretending, nor was i being retarded. gene wolfe is an old fat fuck. if by calling me names, you mean saying "bugbear", that's literally hilarious. who but some faggots on /lit/ would consider bugbear a legitimately upsetting insult? you need to read real man literature, like Rabelais. Stop being such a little faggot.

>>9597281
See? This is what you get when you try to attack the araminiposters. You get oodles of butthurt that can't be salved.

What the fuck happened to this thread? Is it one guy samefagging or a couple of butthurt meme trilogy fucks?

>>9597297
you sound very bitter so yes i would think calling you a bugbear literally legitimately upset you.

but i think we can be friends regardless. the funny thing is that i read rabelais and wolfe around the same time, and liked both quite a bit. which book did you like the most from gargantua and pantagruel? i have special preference for book 4, and it so happens that it has an aquarian aspect that lends itself to intertext with wolfe's diluvian mode. if anything wolfe is an author with rabelaisan traits, much like melville, in terms of the long winded hodgepodge of forms and style of their magnum opuses, as wolfe offers accounts of social commentary, unrepressed bawdiness (he has a hentai sense of humor despite being catholic), parody, storytelling involving stories within stories, plays within stories, creative use of dead languages, bees examined alongside owls (book 1 of botns, and book 5 of rabelais), and if it matters, giants ruining everyone else's shit. several giants actually.

>>9597381
well, in terms of books, it's a bit difficult for me to recall because of the format Screech used, I had to stop reading about the third book in because I was so frustrated with the effluvient notes bogging down every god damn page. I really enjoyed specific moments rather than entire books, such as the vaginal wall around Paris, or when they escape from Gargantua's innards, revealing that he had taken huge dumps within him. Really, I read Rabelais as a way to desensitize myself in preparation for Pynchon at large. I tried V., but was incapable of finishing largely due to my ease of offense, however, I feel that Rabelais conquered far more ludicrous and tawdry topics that would ever escape Pynchon's pen. I find it somewhat hard to believe that a sci-fi fantasy author such as wolfe would have any way to capture Rabelaisian spirit like so many have failed after him. The guy was a polyglot lawyer theologian, right? Anyway, I have a lot of Rabelais to read still, but he seemed like a perfect example to throw at you, because I had assumed they would be nothing alike. You seem to feel otherwise, but it's hard to tell if you're connecting things that shouldn't be due to your obvious worship of Gene.

I got a different translation which I'm looking forward to, by the way. Interesting that you speak of stories within stories, an effect i got tired of from reading Manuscript Found in Saragossa, just far too much to bear. I really worry you have some strange glasses on. Are you aramini, perchance? He was pretty adamant about loving the ever living shit out of Wolfe. Oh no wait, it was Pantagruel's Innards, I believe. Somewhere around the time of the war. Man I don't fucking remember, Screech's translation was so jagged, it really broke up what little cohesive flow the book might have had.

>>9597381
oh for fuck's sake, now gene wolfe is Rabelaisian. let me guess, he's also Ariostovic, and has a striking resemblance to the prose of Vladimir Voinovich

>>9597226
how is he edgy

>>9597517
>his name is Severian
>executioner
how isn't he edgy?

>>9597561
he isn't an edgelord that enjoys his work.
And what is wrong with his name?

>>9597568
>he's an executioner
>his name literally has the word "sever" in it
next thing you'll tell me is that you're just pretending to be retarded.

>>9597574
Holy fuck, how could I have been so blind for so long?

File: 1432840082877.jpg (19KB, 478x571px) Image search: [Google]

19KB, 478x571px

seriously is it just one guy shitting up this thread?

>>9597615
yeah, it's you.

File: 1460410409877.png (325KB, 471x464px) Image search: [Google]

325KB, 471x464px

>>9597621
oh fuck how did I not know

>>9597624
As I said, how could I have been so blind, Holy fuck.

File: me before this revelation.jpg (42KB, 870x720px) Image search: [Google]

42KB, 870x720px

>>9597630

>>9597658
why do you keep talking to ourself?

>>9597661
Because you are my alter ego

>>9597665
ha, if i weren't you, i would obviously be the superior of we.

>>9597671
we are not amused

>>9597675
aren't we?

autism.

>>9597315
>>9597615
I'm not certain but I think it's actually a Malazan fan.

File: FB_IMG_1496653593273.jpg (7KB, 220x322px) Image search: [Google]

7KB, 220x322px

>>9598133
Oh right, we recently got a butthurt ebin fantasy Malazan fan.

File: face.jpg (30KB, 139x161px) Image search: [Google]

30KB, 139x161px

>>9597574
That's admirable in a way, this tradition ran from Fielding to Thackeray (and I think it was Henry James who made fun of him because of that then already?) and the only writer upholding it nowadays I can think of besides Wolfe is Toni Morrison.

>>9597426
>>9597498
Presence of Rabelaisian elements in Wolfe isn't an impossible point to argue but the similarities are rather superficial. Book 4 as anon says would be the strongest field and even then the aesthetics are not idiosyncratic Rabelais, rather medieval fiction under renaissant neoplatonic lighting.

File: 1494456560387.png (190KB, 467x470px) Image search: [Google]

190KB, 467x470px

>>9589545
Having an interpretation of the torturers as a futuristic order of Catholic priests trivializes their role in the book, I think. You have a point, however there is a scene between Severian and little Severian in which they discuss why the zoanthropes - people who have undergone an operation which removes their higher cognitive capabilities - don't wear clothing. It seems to me that in this scene, Wolfe is more or less suggesting that the torturers represent what Christian theology would consider "evil." Of course I think the torturers are meant to be ambiguous, morally speaking.

Also, is it possible there are two or more different lines of man in the novel? It is mentioned that sentient machines were given the animals parts of mans being so that men could travel to the stars, and that the machines gave this part back. But assuming that a population of humans never left Urth, then maybe they retained that animal part?

My point is that is there two or more populations of men who have vastly different histories, and what does this mean? The exultants are resentful of their education, while lower classes are grateful. Perhaps the exultants are the interstellar men? Just some thoughts. I don't post here often.

>>9585258
This is as obvious as a slap in the face from the first chapter because Sevvy can literally not shut the fuck up about his TORTUOUSly good memory

>>9598356
Daily reminder that to deny the validity of death sentence is for a Catholic acual heresy.

>>9598133
someone reads that shit

>>9598313
this tradition? naming people in a goofy and unconvincing way? next thing you're going to tell me that Tobias Smollett made the best book titles in existence. for fuck's sake, Dickens did that shit! I bet you love your precious Gene far more than Dickens. That's it. I'm downloading and reading this stupid fucking series and reading it to spite you people specifically. Book of the new sun, my fucking christ, look at that fucking title. it oozes "i used gurps with an ancient greek and sci fi setting, i'm so clever and childless!" Fuck, i'd rather fucking read Terry Pratchett, at leas his fellators are a cut above trying to pedestalize their beloved author alongside Shakespeare and Joyce and Rabelais, for fucking christ sakes.

>>9599183
t. butthurt autist

>>9599189
yeah, not the waves of pricks drowning anyone who might criticize a single line from the voluminous texts of the lord Gene Wolfe. no, they're not the autists, connecting piece after piece of some hideous puzzle made of feces and human hair just to legitimize some guy who writes fucking genre fiction, obsessing to the point that they have entire youtube channels fellating the man at length, while simultaneously drawing nothing but revulsion from the rest of society, you fucking cretins, if i am an autist. then there would have to be a neologistic ceremony consisting of the greatest minds to come up with a term that would accurately describe your ignominious love for some old fart that can't even write women properly!

File: ciswhite.jpg (13KB, 250x250px) Image search: [Google]

13KB, 250x250px

>>9599183
familia, you have completely misread my post if you think comparison to toni morrison was supposed to be a compliment

>>9599285
>lmao white bois xD

Spot the /mu/ browsing effeminate faggot

meme/outsider rap is shit and always will be but-bandit

File: zionist.jpg (58KB, 856x481px) Image search: [Google]

58KB, 856x481px

>>9599303
of all the memeshit going on you choose to be buttflusterd at this

really does one a thinken

>>9599314
figuratively flustered unlike the physical-yours

>>9599285
i wasn't sure, some people like toni. i was doing a wake up rant anyway.

>>9591842
This (and the book of the long sun) are great. I love the way the plot drops hints all the time that reward rereads, love the disconnected nature of the narrative that makes you question Latro's positioning and circumstances regularly, strange happenings that exist in only a few lines, rarely alluded to again, complex characters and strange interpretations of mythology, combined with wolfe-language (rope, tower hill, RIVERLAND). It's all my shit. Reading an entry on my phone whenever I sat down to wait while going through the soldier series was really worth it, made my month feel like a parallel journey. My criticisms lie with the sexual aspects of the adventures, I guess it's authentic to the setting, but I'm not all about the constant sexing (but then again, BotNS). Confirmed wolfefag add me to the total.

>>9597297
>hates old fat fucks
>enjoys Rabelais
Luckily Im a big Gene Wolfe fan so I have hope this post will start to make sense after the 3rd or 4th readthrough.

>>9599211
I would perform twin apricots on you with ease ... if you still had your testes.

>>9591842
I have read it, and also know everything.

>>9599211
Few people have the courage to write women properly, for fear of being labeled misogynist. Jin mosley won shane mosley's championship belts and monthly alimony based on his highest earnings when he was washed up and could get no more paydays. If i wrote a money grubbing bitch like that as my main character it would be literary game over. Instead we have women who can fight men in books ... how did that go for lucia rijker, one of the best female fighters in the world, against a scrub male fighter in her weightclass? Cuz that's how you take a man's belts, not in court.

I want to fuck Thecla so bad bros

>>9602275
>Thecla
Patrician choice. Jolenta is a turbo-thot, Dorcas is too pure and Agia is a crazy bitch but Thecla is just right.

>>9602275
i want to eat thecla*

>>9602275
>>9602470
why not both

but not really you sick fucks

>>9602458
My impression throughout Shadow was that we, people in our own time, would find Thecla unsettling and even hideous. She's described as not really looking fully human.

>>9602514
exultants are supposed to be 7 feet tall or something, wouldn't stop me though

>>9602514
I get exactly what you mean but the idea of a sociopathic aristocratic amazon lady is just too much to say no to.

>>9602514
shed have a wrestler's jawline and maybe some mannish cheekbones but that just advertises better blowjobs

File: severian01.jpg (70KB, 481x500px) Image search: [Google]

70KB, 481x500px

I love the art from this series

>>9602723
Bruce Pennington's UK covers are the best.

>when Severain becomes a journeyman he gets so drunk on wine he is still vomiting and hallucinating the next morning and even after sleeping again
Imagine being this lightweight

File: 51E05iQwDbL._SY400_.jpg (35KB, 251x400px) Image search: [Google]

35KB, 251x400px

>all the cool cover art out there and I get stuck with this goofy fucking thing
he looks like my Morrowind character

>>9602849
He looks like he's on the cover of a glamrock album. Also nice wristwatch.

>>9602849
my sides, I can't find them

>>9589214
This is the biggest question to me, and it's not the only possible incest either. If I recall correctly there's a good chance Thecla was his sister or cousin or something as well.
So what does it have to do with Severians story that everyone he bumps into is a some sort of family member? Is it just another indication of how stage managed his life is by the alien/angels? Is there a reason they keep hooking him up with his senpai?

>>9602849
>pointed tip
REEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>9601320
w-what?

Post quotes

>peaks so high they appeared to be literally without summit, as though the whole world had been falling forever from some unimaginable Heaven, which yet retained its hold on these mountains.

>>9603446
okay Ginsberg, you lsd laced faggot.

>>9603446
>purple prose LITERALLY without summit

>>9603457
I can't tell whether you're using purple prose without knowing what it means or think the use of literally is wrong here, despite the "appeared to be" validating it.

>>9603468
ur overthinking it im ciriticzing it for being genreshit

>>9603446
i love wolfe's poetry.


All the Valley quivered, one extended motion, wind
undulating on mossy hills
a giant wash that sank white fog delicately down red runnels
on the mountainside
whose leaf-branch tendrils moved asway
in granitic undertow down—
and lifted the floating Nebulous upward, and lifted the arms of the trees
and lifted the grasses an instant in balance
and lifted the lambs to hold still
and lifted the green of the hill, in one solemn wave

>>9603446
>How strange it is that the sky, which by day is a stationary ground on which the clouds are seen to move, by night becomes the backdrop for Urth's own motion, so that we feel her rolling beneath us as a sailor feels the running of the tide. That night the sense of this slow turning was so strong that I was almost giddy with its long, continued sweep.

>Strong too was the feeling that the sky was a bottomless pit into which the universe might drop forever. I had heard people say that when they looked at the stars too long they grew terrified by the sensation of being drawn away. My own fear--and I felt fear--was not centered on the remote suns, but rather on the yawning void; and at times I grew so frightened that I gripped the rock with my freezing fingers, for it seemed to me that I must fall off Urth.

>>9603574
Shiiiet I remember the exact scene

>>9603483
Gene Wolfe doesn't write poetry.

is severian a manlet
i need to know

File: carlos.jpg (34KB, 600x600px) Image search: [Google]

34KB, 600x600px

>>9604673
he's SEVERELY short.

>>9604673
At the start it's mentioned pretty often that he's tall enough to slip by as whatever their name was, the ones right under exultants in the social hierarchy or whatever.

>>9604957
wrong.

>>9605447
epic

>>9605447
Talos calls him a tall fellow and Agia mistook him for an Armiger; he's canonically tall.

>>9605569
false. what pages?

>>9605636
Literally ctrl+f "tall fellow" and "Armiger" around the part him and Agia first meet. Alternatively, see >>9605528

>>9605663
>ctrl+f
>implying i own a digital copy of any books
i'm not a fucking pleb.

>>9605670
p. 64, 74

>>9605678
she doesn't say that directed towards severian, you're misinterpreting the text. the second one is irrelevant, and also misinterpreted besides.

>>9605683
What is this obscure memery

>He extended a delicate, well-cared-for hand. "I am Dr. Talos."
>"The Journeyman Severian." I threw off the thin coverings and stood up to take it.
>"You wear black, I see. What guild is that?"
>"It is the fuligin of the torturers."
>"Ah!" He cocked his head to one side like a thrush, and hopped about to look at me from various angles. "You're a tall fellow - that's a shame - but all that sooty stuff is very impressive."

>"Do you know you are a frightening man? When you entered our shop, I thought you only another young armiger in motley. Then when I found you really were a torturer, I thought it couldn't really be so bad after all - that you were only a young man like other young men."

I thought you were genuinely curious and pulling the "no I disagree" card to get me to provide source quickly, but are you actually baiting about something this trivial?
Well, whatever you were going for, I guess you succeeded. Well done.

>>9605720
>he thinks Severian is a trustworthy narrator
jesus christ.

>>9605730
>"severian is tall"
>"where does it say that in the book"
>"here"
>"sike, the book cant be trusted"

Shame on you for abusing my autism

>>9605742
>implying certain details aren't distinguishable as truth by intertextual references
okay, guy, stop. there is truth in the text, this is one that isn't acceptable as truth as there's nothing to compare it to. one must assume the majority of Severian's narration is untruth. You haven't read any of Gene Wolfe's essays, have you?

>>9605757
How exactly did you expect me to proof that nothing in the text disproves those details, what were you expecting when you asked for "which pages?" Agia sets up the Avern fight in a way that portrays Severian as Armiger, there's something you can compare it to.

File: 14677433739994.jpg (179KB, 404x521px) Image search: [Google]

179KB, 404x521px

>>9605683
>she doesn't say that directed towards severian
>"Then when I found you really were a torturer"

>>9605772
i was expecting you to understand that intertextuality is relevant, and hoped you would provide me with text that would correspond with the associated texts that Gene clearly outlines for us in his essays. i clearly overestimated you. won't happen again.
>>9605797
please, keep up. read the rest of the conversation.

>>9605839
I wonder how far out of your ass you can pull this.

>>9605839
>you forgot the part where i backpedaled, keep up
Good thing you're showing your patrician individuality by starting your sentences with lower case letters or I'd think you're just a retard

>>9605839
>the associated texts that Gene clearly outlines for us in his essays
Provide them.

>>9605880
>waaah do my research for me
fucking google it, you're smart right?
>>9605861
no no, you're doing a great job. keep at it.

>>9605861
You'd be surprised how easy it is to abuse my habit of lower case letters. Samefagging is great when people are overconfident about their methods of anon identification.

in fact, the majority of this thread is me.

this has just been practice for dialogue.

>>9605915
but if that is true, then why am I responsible for most of the posts in this thread?

File: Nabby Kahv.jpg (48KB, 313x470px) Image search: [Google]

48KB, 313x470px

>>9605943
ah, but did you know that Nabokov enjoyed the dissection of butterfly sex organs, and specialized in it even?
face it, you could never be me. though it is flattering.

>>9605950
What in the fuck?

>>9604701
fuck you carlos

heh