What is required leftist reading?

bookchin

>>9569992
If you're American you need to read the best stuff on "identity politics" so you can understand the left's greatest roadblock.

>>9569992

8ch /leftypol/ reading list, faggot

>>9570057
Wow, great, that's really helpful! Thanks for posting it! You're a true pal.

>>9569992
Christopher Lasch. Then you will know where modern leftists went wrong.

>>9569992
Animal Farm

nothing
leftists don't read

>>9570429
I'm certain the opposite is true as a generalization.

>>9570429
The left is full of limp-wristed pseuds who read too much. They've gotten pumped in the US because the right is more oriented toward enacting their agenda.

>>9570057
just go there you faggot, they have gorillions of images of reading lists that no one actually reads from (otherwise you wouldn't be a leftist).

>>9570429
>muh leftist boogeyman or boogeymen

Mein Kampf

>>9570429
Other way around, pal. Most intellectuals are leftists.

1984: Animal Farm

>>9570665
People who score higher on measures that could be construed as a measure of intellectualism (open-mindedness, for instance) tend to cluster around the centre

Read some Tetlock nerdboi

>>9570685
Open-mindedness is for fags who think that the solution to problems lie somewhere in the center of a spectrum between Jesus Christ and Hitler.

>>9570685
So, you consider yourself as part of the cluster around the center, right?

>>9569992
what do you mean by leftist?

>>9569992
books are eurocentric and patriarchal anyways, in a true leftist society, books will be banned in order to protect the feelings and 'alternative, equally valid ways of knowing' of blacks, homosexuals and other noble non european peoples who are far too r̶e̶t̶a̶r̶d̶e̶d̶ ̶ noble and pure to practice the phallogocentric practice of reading.

>>9570704
ye

>>9570698
it usually is

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>>9570724
>homosexuals are non european now

>>9569992
Kroptkin, Bakunin, and Stirner.

>>9570731
here's something for you if you think i'm kidding. Leftism elevates victimhood as the supreme value. Even a statement such as 2+2=4 is seen as oppressive and eurocentric. All social institutions need to be dedicated to the worship of the Victim, regardless of their originally intended function. Stuff such as IQ, achievement, aesthetic value, morality, science are seen as artificial 'social constructs' created by evil privileged white males. (seriously). for the leftist, victimhood is the only truth. suddenly, national socialism doesn't seem that bad to be honest. I used to be reasonably with gays, not my business I thought, but then I realised what was going on. Children are being indoctrinated with 'gender ideology' and 'queer theory' from an early age, probably with the intent to rape them/turn them into trannies. It all connects back to the cult of the victim, there is no higher truth than the will of the victim.

http://blogs.ams.org/inclusionexclusion/2017/05/11/get-out-the-way/

>>9570724
Good luck banning the koran

https://edensauvage.wordpress.com/2016/07/25/reading-list-for-aspiring-ultra-lefts/

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>>9570825
>Griffiths and Gleeson – Kinderkommunismus: A Feminist Analysis of the 21st Century Family and a Communist Proposal for Its Abolition
>Gegen Kapital und Nation – Hatred of Homosexuality: Theses Toward a Critique of Bourgeois Sexuality
>Mieli – Towards a Gay Communism

why are leftists so obsessed with making everyone gay?

>Roediger – The Wages of Whiteness
its kool and edgy to hate your own race kids

>>9570665
Freedom, or liberty are no intellectual challenges. Unreachable ideals like making everybody rich, or liking eacht other are intellectual more challenging.
That's why most intellectuals ate leftists.

>>9570872


>It's cooler and edgier to be dismissive of books you evaluate by their titles.

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>>9570895
I noticed there's a book by professor (((Noel Ignatiev))) on there, hmmm...

>>9569992
https://twitter.com/RealPeerReview

You know the answer already, read Capital.

>>9570916
He's not wrong. Americans invented the "white vs black" dichotomy because they're Euro mutts who have no other identity.

>>9570916

Of all the words of tongue or pen, none sad as these: /pol/ was right again.

>>9570995
pol will never understand this because it requires acknowledging their subsaharan admixture

>>9570995
>>9570995
woah, cool edgy cultural marxist agenda, its soo edgy even our mass media and university system are down with it. Funny how all those 'ultraleft' supposedly anti system professors get 500k a year gigs at Harvard, basically just for shrieking KILL WHITEY! over and over and over, or claiming that if a gay man rapes a child its actually good because they are 'queering the dynamics of consent' thus liberating the child from patriarchal cisgender oppression or whatever. while anyone even remotely right of center isn't allowed to come close to an university because muh nazi cracker white mayo previleged bigot!

>>9571058
The fuck are you even talking about, practically every major university has a conservative society/club.

Noted anti-semite and alt-right favourite Kevin MacDonald is a professor at CSULB.

>>9571083

They let a few token conservatives in to maintain the illusion of objectivity and academic freedom. They usually get shunted to less prestigious institutions and have a hard time getting grant money.

>>9570995
Sorry pal Europeans invented race, can't pin it on USA.

>>9571083
woah a single exception to the literally hundreds of thousands of 'ultraleft' sjws, antiwhites and queer(tm) genderblobs with FEDGOV subsidized salaries or prominent positions in media. Woah this what white supremacy looks ! this is literally the 3rd reich!

>>9571102
>>9571109
Educational institutions lean left by their nature but I can assure you there are still plenty of conservatives at the most prestigious institutions, you're just blinded by confirmation bias,

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>it's a leftists that have only been exposed to leftist academia that assume academia is all leftist episode

First, define leftist.

>>9571171
It's particularly dumb assumption for Americans because there are many explicitly conservative universities in the US.

Like, go enrol at Liberty University if you're so mad at your Marxist professor.

>>9571176

Right is right, and left is wrong.

>>9571111
the ultraleft wants to destroy Western Civilisation. and oh boy you can tell they are getting what they want. either you stand with your own people or you stand with the enemy. seems like you've made your choice already. Why go out like that? prostrated before your shrieking pathetic inferiors while weeping and apologising profusely because our people dared to be more, because they dared to go beyond. That's not how a honorable man dies, that's how a dog dies.

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>>9571181
>Liberty University

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>>9571190
Lot of assumptions packed in here while addressing absolutely nothing of what I said.

>>9569992

I feel like the traditional left/right scale has become irrelevant. The "means of production" is no longer just factories or coal mines. Western nations have outsourced a ton of their manufacturing to poor places in Asia. How can you have a debate on who controls the means of production, when most of the production isn't even done here?

>>9571222
in the end, means of innovation> means of production. that's why communism always fails.

>>9569992

How did Marx feel about racism? I understand he wanted the workers to control the means of production. But would he support the modern celebration of diversity?

In a weird way, would he relate more to people like Trump or Le Pen, who talk about the welfare of the nation's workers, or would he relate more to neo-liberal capitalists like Hillary and Macron?

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Read Eduardo Galeano and Bertolt Brecht. Don't read intellectuals and economists only, read artists and poets as well.

>The Nobodies, from The Book of Embraces

>Fleas dream of buying themselves a dog, and nobodies dream of escaping poverty: that one magical day good luck will suddenly rain down on them–will rain down in buckets. But good luck doesn’t rain down yesterday, today, tomorrow, or ever. Good luck doesn’t even fall in a fine drizzle, no matter how hard the nobodies summon it, even if their left hand is tickling, or if they begin the new day with their right foot, or start the new year with a change of brooms.

>The nobodies: nobody’s children, owners of nothing. The nobodies: the no ones, the nobodied, running like rabbits, dying through life, screwed every which way.

>Who are not, but could be.
>Who don’t speak languages, but dialects.
>Who don’t have religions, but superstitions.
>Who don’t create art, but handicrafts.
>Who don’t have culture, but folklore.
>Who are not human beings, but human resources.
>Who do not have faces, but arms.
>Who do not have names, but numbers.
>Who do not appear in the history of the world, but in the police blotter of the local paper.
>The nobodies, who are not worth the bullet that kills them.


- - -

>A Worker Reads History - Poem by Bertolt Brecht

>Who built the seven gates of Thebes?
>The books are filled with names of kings.
>Was it the kings who hauled the craggy blocks of stone?
>And Babylon, so many times destroyed.
>Who built the city up each time? In which of Lima's houses,
>That city glittering with gold, lived those who built it?
>In the evening when the Chinese wall was finished
>Where did the masons go? Imperial Rome
>Is full of arcs of triumph. Who reared them up? Over whom
>Did the Caesars triumph? Byzantium lives in song.
>Were all her dwellings palaces? And even in Atlantis of the legend
>The night the seas rushed in,
>The drowning men still bellowed for their slaves.

>Young Alexander conquered India.
>He alone?
>Caesar beat the Gauls.
>Was there not even a cook in his army?
>Phillip of Spain wept as his fleet
>was sunk and destroyed. Were there no other tears?
>Frederick the Greek triumphed in the Seven Years War.
>Who triumphed with him?

>Each page a victory
>At whose expense the victory ball?
>Every ten years a great man,
>Who paid the piper?

>So many particulars.
>So many questions.

>>9571208
I know what the left believes, that's why its useless getting wrapped up in your bullshit attempts at gaming the language with 'privilege theory' and 'intersectionality'. for the leftist, the only thing that matters is the fulfillments of leftist goals. truth does not exist for the postmodern leftist only 'oppression' does. I am against your goals and I am against you personally.

>>9571252
Thanks for clarifying. Now I can get back to destroying western civilisation at the white race.

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>>9571247
I think it is so ridiculous to ask the question "what would this long dead person think of this modern thing". I think anyone who is not living right now don't know shit of how to handle the problem we have, definitely not better than ourselves anyway. I really don't care what this guy or the others "would think" of a current situation. Even if you track down modern keywords into their writings, you'll find they were talking of a very different thing and could not predict what was coming next.

That is not to say they are useless or anything like that, we can learn a lot from them, we must read history and see what these guys have to say. But the moment we stop to think "what would this person think of this thing this person is not talking about", we start going too far with our projecting and we would end up actually finding material to support what is actually our own opinion about it. And it's great to have an opinion and even to have it supported by previous theories, but this support is a recognition of both similarities and differences from what you defend, it adds up to the theory and it cannot pretend itself to be something that was "already written".

The problems we face today, even if they have a history, are fresh and one of a kind. The solutions we need will have to be fresh as well, it was not thought out before. I personally think part of the reasons we have so many problems is that we are too timid to build upon our influences in fear of diminishing them. It's hard to criticize your preffered field of study, your religion, or your parents and their values, even your own self from two years ago. But things will change and in order to adapt to tomorrow we will have to renounce a costly part of what constitutes our view of the world today.

>>9571252
Thank god I'm not intimidated by campus liberals like you are.

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>>9571341
>get bullied by high school by jocks
>get bullied in college by dykes

>>9571247
He would be right alongside his jewish brethren in promoting diversity for the goyim and calling any who strayed "racist."

How does anyone expect to understand communism and Marxism without understanding the jew? You can't do it. These things are intertwined.

>>9571341
they are not 'liberals' read up on classical liberalism. These people stand against all liberal principles, they are antiwhite ultraleftists and radical communists.

>>9571406

In modern parlance, they are liberals. Which just further shows that most political language is useless. Most ideological terms have no real use at all except to confuse and manipulate.

>>9571403
I just want to interrupt here real fast

Why do you apply the buzzword 'marxist' to all these liberal things? You know marxists consider liberals the main enemy, yes? In the single meaningful struggle against capitalism, which all other fights are a distraction from? What do you think marxism has to do with race? You need to stop listening to youtubers talk about books they've never read.

>>9571421
so you admit your views are exactly the same views as that of the establishment? really I don't see why anyone would be a leftist if not for a seething hatred of the west and white people. how did you end up like that?

>>9571406
They are liberals, they are the ideological descendants of the enlightenment same as ""conservatives."" You seriously NEED to read something outside of the youtube-reactionary sphere. You're making yourself look stupid in ways you can't perceive yet.

>>9571422
I suggest you gather your thoughts and try to make a clearer point. Though going by the phrase: "Marxists consider liberals their main enemy," I have considerable doubts that you will be able to do that.

>>9569992
Why is Marx not considered right wing?

>>9571434
My god you're stupid. Go on leftypol, watch them explain exactly why liberals get the bullet.

>>9570724
this being a leftist and reading is unfair as most miniorities can't read

>>9571434
Why do you think Marxists dislike the liberal-democratic order? You really should pick up a book at least once in your life, don't just listen to paul joseph watson

>>9571447
I've never been there and never plan to; that you take your ideological cues from such a place, however, explains why you appear to know next to nothing about what you are attempting to speak about itt.

>>9571434
I'm a Marxist and I consider liberals my main enemy. I also consider you a liberal, just a young edgy one

>>9571455
Paul Joseph Watson is a faggot and I've never watched more than a minute of anything he's done. But your distinctions are pointless here because you don't understand the inherent forces driving both liberalism and Marxism: jews.

>>9571460
The definition of marxism isn't something you "take ideological queues" on, it's a fact. You're admitting to virtue signalling right now, I hope you realize.

>>9571465
Are you jewish?

>>9571471
Give me a list of people you might consider an authority on what Marxism is

.>>9571475
Yes. Are you near New York City?

>>9571474
Marxism is a jewish tactic used to distort western traditions like philosophy, et al. I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about. If you aren't jewish, and believe yourself to be a Marxist, you're quite simply brainwashed.

>>9571490
Oh. What do you call a non-jew who read Marx's work on economics and revolution and agrees with it?

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>>9571478
MacDonald pretty much nailed it

>>9571478
All right. Since you're jewish that explains why you're interested in subverting western traditions via Marxism. Now I hope anyone who is not jewish and reading this thread will understand why I asked and made my initial post highlighting why Marxism is a strictly jewish phenomenon used by the tribe of mentally sick nation destroyers you belong to.

>>9571494
A shabbos goy.

>>9571503
Yes, he did. Right on the nose.

workers went in peaceful demonstration at the novocherkassk party head quarters carrying portraits of Lenin, to request a change in economic conditions. they were fired on with machine guns and dispersed with tanks

how anyone can be a marxist after events like these baffles me

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>>9571422
if 'cultural marxism dont real' then how do you call THIS

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this one is pretty good

>>9571526
>how anyone can be a marxist after events like these baffles me

Only jews and misguided kids who listen to jews and think they're just like them do.

Speaking of which, those marxist jews really scattered once they got found out / exposed themselves.

>>9570179
also recommend "suicide" by simon critchley

>>9570803
Nice strawman buddy. Only post-modern SJW memster americans spew that shit. In my country and in most of the world leftists are classical Marxists who beleive in democratic ownership over the means of production and dont give a shit about neo-marxist bullshit like the "sexuality is a spectrum" meme

Marxism: Whoever can come up with the most genders wins

>>9569992
read the exit bag infograph

>>9571595
This. And >>9571553 I'm right here you slug, still offering to change your mind manually IRL if you're near NYC, I have a life outside 4chan that needed tending. You NEET roleplayer.

>>9569992

The Gulag Archipelago

>>9571935
Here we seem to have the embodiment of the little jew, crowded with the rest of his rat kin in our urban spaces and trying to drum up in revolutionary fervor in nations that aren't his own. Move to your middle eastern wasteland country, little jew.

>>9570482

If it turns out they read, they don't 'think' and only absorb. They're like Lebezyatnikov from Crime and Punishment, they just jump on the latest intellectual trends to conform. As egghead and zealot as they may be, they live in a world of contradiction and self-deception. There's hardly a single actual revolutionary, a Lenin or a Spartacus, on the American left. They at least brought their ideals into the world, for a moment at least, and did more than just "protest" or hide behind the very social order they claim is oppressive. I could walk into a room full of our modern day Jacobins in some hipster café and make them all cry, frenzy, or just gabble on in ignorant denial with a word. It's pathetic.

Not to imply the contrary that conservatives are amazing, independently thinking geniuses; in fact most conservatives are no better than barnyard animals who go from point to point without thinking and do things like attend megachurches and eat chili cheese dogs for all three meals.

they can all go rot

>>9572015
>latest intellectual trends
NRx? Genuine oldschool marxism is basically extinct in the west right now.

>>9569992
Jean-Jacques Rousseau is an absolute read.

>>9572028
I think nrx is pretty much done these days. Most of the people involved got hip to the JQ and became white nationalists.

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>>9569992
a bullet to the brain so your retarded ideas don't spread

>>9569992
In the case of preserving one's leftism, the question isn't which books you should read, but which books you should avoid.

It really baffles me that un-ironic "marxists" still exist. The core theories have largely been debunked.

>>9570665
>"intellectuals"
He is right though that most radicals don't read. Whether it's Mao killing teachers in the cultural revolution or a Nuremberg book burning.

>>9569992
Might is Right
https://thundermark.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/might-is-right.pdf

Why are internet Nazis so threatened by Marx

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>>9572172
Probably because within living memory actual Nazis fought one of the most apocalyptic wars in history against actual Marxists

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>"Committee agreed to request by professor Noam Chomsky (MIT) to speak on East Timor. Although Chomsky has not yet appeared, advance text of statement was made available to committee members. Statement is long and sharp attack on US policy and Western press treatment of East Timor question."

>"Statement contains sharp attack on U.S. policy on East Timor question and condemnation of US and Western press for evading the issue or reporting only USG and GOI views."

>"The statement charges that the U.S. (followed by the press) has denied or concealed atrocities committed by Indonesia and has argued that no useful purpose can be served by questioning Indonesian control of East Timor. By following this policy, Chomsky states, the U.S. has in effect "been able to take part in massacres and repression in East Timor by providing Indonesia with the material support it requires to carry on its continuing war of aggression and the ideological support that enables it to do so virtually in secret." Statement ends by equating "alleged" atrocities in Cambodia to those in East Timor. The former have been given "massive international publicity...Embellished by substantial fabrication" while the latter have been largely ignored by the Western media, the statement alleges. Chomsky supports his criticism of U.S. policy by drawing extensively from dept testimony before congress and selective quotes from the Western press."

>"East Timor issue has still attracted little interest in fourth committee. Chomsky statement could, however, attract press attention and increase visibility of the issue. If dept believes mission should make statement in right of reply to Chomsky, text should be datafaxed before opening of fourth committee meeting afternoon Dec. 1."

Government fears the Chomsky Samurai

>>9569992
'History and Class Consciousness,' by Lukacs.
Anything by Istvan Meszaros.
Herbert Marcuse, too.

Any Helicopter flight manual

>>9570492
What the fuck? Why does /pol/ have one or two reading lists and /leftypol/ has tons?

>>9570492
>(otherwise you wouldn't be a leftist).
True, you would be a marxist-leninist

>>9572673
False you would be a Maoist

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>>9569992

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>>9572697

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>>9572704

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>>9572716

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>>9570003

>>9572697
>>9572704
>>9572716
>>9572722
thx

>>9570803
>I have no argument and I must virtue signal

When you start a thread off bitching about post-colonialists, you know you are going to have a bad time.

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Someone please make a Das Kapital reading group

>>9572179
Yeah and they lost. Miserably.

>>9572730
you

>>9572730
never gonna happen here. just watch the david harvey lectures as you read.

Grow up and get a job.

Fuck, the world would stop if people just didn't work and sat around all day. There would be no food, no video games, no anime, no books, no internet.

Nobody would work hard if they didn't get what they deserve. There was a joke in Russia, "They pretend to pay us, we pretend to work".

>CEOs don't deserve 10x the salary of a factory grunt

Do you know how hard CEOs work? My dad was the boss of an engineering company and he worked fucking harder than any of the grunts. Very few people can handle CEO or manager positions, which is why they're paid so high.

>>9572790
marx B T F O

how will cucked commies recover?

>>9569992
>in b4 muh basic economics

>>9572790
pics or it never happened

>>9572790
Quality bait.

>>9572790
>muh Dad was a hard worker, therefore if I hate communism I will be just like him!

I haven't seen a projection this big since the last time I went to the IMAX

>>9572790
>Do you know how hard CEOs work? My dad was the boss of an engineering company and he worked fucking harder than any of the grunts. Very few people can handle CEO or manager positions, which is why they're paid so high.
wow, what an amazing argument. marxists can just pack up and go home now

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>>9569992

(Br)ump(f)

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>>9572879
He means this one OP

>>9572861
Wow what an amazing refutation.
Lenin can come back from the grave and start global red October now.

>>9569992
You should check out 'Bad Feminist' by Roxane Gay, truly the greatest leftist book of our generation. Lena Dunham's 'Not that Kind of Girl' is also a great read, really enlightened me on bros and white privilege

>>9569992
The only reading list you need.

https://edensauvage.wordpress.com/2016/07/25/reading-list-for-aspiring-ultra-lefts/

>>9570665

Except they are frauds, not intellectuals, and they have been for almost half a century, see Derrida and his French Friends.
Thank god that pretentious shit is only read by literature students, and shunned and laughed on by the whole philosophical community.

>>9570004
>implying left is right.
shiggy mcdiggy.

The Fatal Conceit by F.A Hayek.

You should always read the best critiques that helped forward your ideology & Hayek's Road to Serfdom & The Fatal Conceit caused a rethink by Marxists that forced them back to the drawing board on a few issues.

>>9575533
>The Fatal Conceit by F.A Hayek.

>thinks he is critiquing socialism
>does not question the normative role allocative efficiency plays in his analysis
>>was likely cobbled together by his editor

into the trash

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Here you go.

>>9575570
...and why would he? That's up to the rebuttals if they can manage it.

> hasn't read it
Into the trash you go. Astounding how narrow the reading scope of some people here can be. I'd hazard a serious guess that more Capitalists have read Marxist literature than Marxists have read Capitalist writings, particularly former Marxists as opposed to former Capitalists.

>>9572854
Go back to rebbit, you wretched faggot.

>>9575646

Because it's petitio principii.

>wants to """refute""" socialism
>assumes allocative efficiency is an end in itself
>argues """socialism""" does not achieve allocative efficiency
>>>never mind the fact that allocative efficiency is the theoretical ideal of market economies and even when equilibrium appears it is not achieved, but let's continue
>therefore socialism is... what? bad? wrong? not allocatively efficient according to market-economic theory?
>>>never mind the fact that my data on """socialism""" derives from the ussr, which had been studied by marxists and non-marxists before him as a state capitalist autocracy

he assumes what he wants to prove in the premise that allocative efficiency is worthwhile

>>9570819
it's okay because the koran is for the oppressed, and marginalized muslim minority. Anyone reading dead white men though will be cucked by Tyrone and the Ooga squad.

>>9570995
Wrong.

>>9575830
It kind of is a given that you'd want production to achieve those goals or else you'd concede that socialist calculation & planning do not produce efficiently for the wants and needs of society, it's why 1/3 of Marxists accepted the criticism and have settled with Keynesian style capitalism with a welfare state & others have had to rethink their ideas.

The USSR you might remember was touted by Socialists at the time of proof of concept & a good example of bridging polciies like nationalization on the way to a Marxist dream society, no?

Just because some Marxists have tried to distance the ideology from the USSR doesn't mean it isn't a useful example to critique the transitions advocated & achieved by marxists, whereas it's a little bit more difficult to critique the end product they've never reached.

>>9571247
> To him, Free Trade is the normal condition of modern capitalist production. Only under Free Trade can the immense productive powers of steam, of electricity, of machinery, be full developed; and the quicker the pace of this development, the sooner and the more fully will be realized its inevitable results; society splits up into two classes, capitalists here, wage-laborers there; hereditary wealth on one side, hereditary poverty on the other; supply outstripping demand, the markets being unable to absorb the ever growing mass of the production of industry; an ever recurring cycle of prosperity, glut, crisis, panic, chronic depression, and gradual revival of trade, the harbinger not of permanent improvement but of renewed overproduction and crisis; in short, productive forces expanding to such a degree that they rebel, as against unbearable fetters, against the social institutions under which they are put in motion; the only possible solution: a social revolution, freeing the social productive forces from the fetters of an antiquated social order, and the actual producers, the great mass of the people, from wage slavery. And because Free Trade is the natural, the normal atmosphere for this historical evolution, the economic medium in which the conditions for the inevitable social revolution will be the soonest created -- for this reason, and for this alone, did Marx declare in favor of Free Trade.
He would've probably been in favour of Trump/Le Pen. Marx wouldn't have given a shit about racism, and if I recall correctly he rescinded his support for a feminist movement as it was divorced from the class struggle.

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Why don't you kiddos try the gulag archipelago?

>it's required reading for Russian Highschool students.

>Russia WAS a leftist paradise not but 30 years ago.

>not one of you underwhelming fucks will read this book.

You could try reading Karl Marx. I wouldn't recommend reading most other leftist thinkers.

>>9575908

>It kind of is a given

that is precisely why it is fallacious. just because there is a system in place that theoretically tends toward allocative efficiency (even if it never in practice achieves this) does not mean that system ought to exist.

suggesting that the consensus was that the ussr was a good example of socialism in the 1980s is totally ridiculous. as early as the 1920s scholars in germany who were distancing marxism from the party ideology were identifying the ussr under stalin as state capitalism with planned capital distribution. meanwhile lenin was planning to produce a market economy anyway.

but even if you persist in calling the ussr a properly socialist society, you would only be reiterating an originally marxist argument, according to which capital objectively socializes production by involving the whole population in it. it is only "socialism" insofar as privately owned means (the owner in each case being either the state and not the public, or capitalists and again not the public) are operated by disenfranchised individual laborers.

but besides, i have already suggested that even if you allow allocative efficiency as a normative assumption, you still cant empirically defend capitalism. it creates massive unemployment, only achieves allocative efficiency in a minority of cases, and inefficiently concentrates wealth, creating massive, stagnating bodies of unvalorized capital.

>>9576026
> just because there is a system in place that theoretically tends toward allocative efficiency .... does not mean that system ought to exist.

That's kind of irrelevant in a debate aiming at the same normative goals and you might be right that objectively these goals can't be proven to be the be all end all....but that's exactly why political debate is so retarded nowadays, because back then intellectuals were arguing precisely the points Hayek & Mises refuted, sending them back to the drawing board. Now along come modern marxists talking about equality & fairness over efficiency & other values now used differently than then & now critique is invalidated because the goal posts have moved?

It's a valid critique because it says IF you value efficient allocation of resources according to the wants and needs of society to achieve social ends THEN central planning as it existed in the USSR/elsewhere and even attempts at moneyless/propertyless Marxism are less efficient because XYZ according to Marxist ideas currently put forward.

You're right it doesn't address whether an efficient economy ought to be the chosen metric for society, but this is what people are arguing or have argued so it is/was relevant. If people want to bring in different values then of course critiques might not be relevant to that particular part of modern marxism.

You may have noticed that Marxists more than anyone have spent over 100 years continually moving their goal posts as people have sat there slogging balls between them and everytime a ball bounces off the moving posts they claim victory. It's devious and I don't mind ideologies evolving but it is getting to the point of absurdity the way modern marxist ignore history, the way marxists thought of the day, their arguments and the arguments against them. Then try to apply their views of marxism which are different to previous & other current marxists.

The parameters of debate nowadays are completely arbitrary & rarely defined before a conversation is had which means most people with different values just talk passed each other & are in no way trying to seek truth about what's good for society.

> suggesting that the consensus was that the ussr was a good example of socialism in the 1980s is totally ridiculous

Not ridiculous at all. Just because a few outliers tried to distance themselves in the beginning before the mass exodus does not mean that in those days it wasn't largely accepted as proof of concept by marxists and not only that but it was marxists trying to implement marxism through marxist bridging policies ie. nationalization

On top of that we can't ignore the Fabian Marxists of Europe with their approach of gradualism, with anchors in traditional marxism, welfare state democratic socialism & Keynesian economics, they are marxists implementing marxist supported policies on the road to marxism whether internet marxists know they exist or interact with them at all.

>>9575916

But Trump/Le Pen want to nationalize factories and businesses. That is different from having the workers own them.

>>9576026
> you still cant empirically defend capitalism. it creates massive unemployment, only achieves allocative efficiency in a minority of cases, and inefficiently concentrates wealth, creating massive, stagnating bodies of unvalorized capital.

..and you would obviously have a lot of disagreement by those that see root causes & distortions elsewhere from corporatism & marxist policies, vs free markets etc. Depends on if you like to persist in applying the same umbrella to Capitalism as some people do to Socialism.

I'm sure you'd agree ideas & their implementation have to be looked at in their own merit & especially have the nuances taken into account. When looking at history Marxists & Libertarians for example have top settle with the imperfect data & examples that have existed and need to try and extrapolate truth from that, whether a higher degree of X leads to better outcomes for people according to certain values or whether a less degree of Y leads to worse outcomes.

So I would defend empiraclly Free market capitalism as I see it vs Corporatism & Socialism and you would obviously treat the 3 different both in defending & attacking either subsection. Lumping welfare states & corporatism in with free markets maybe, distanceing Marxist end goals from earlier attempts etc.

>>9576201
marx advocated socialism prior to communism so you're wrong. he would be in favor of nationalization policies

>>9572015
this is something i would post when i was 16 and thought i had the whole world figured out

>>9576201
Trump wants to relocate factories and businesses, not nationalize them.

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>>9569992
Listen to or read anything by the Prophet Zizek.


You could also try the Communist manifesto. Also Leftism is a meme, ideology is a meme, and you're a meme.

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>he hasn't read bordiga

>>9572730
this is one of those books that looks really smart until you realise it's one dude stealing everyone else's work and publishing under his own name.

why not just pose with E&H? It's better and shorter

>>9576197
>You may have noticed that Marxists more than anyone have spent over 100 years continually moving their goal posts as people have sat there slogging balls between them and everytime a ball bounces off the moving posts they claim victory. It's devious and I don't mind ideologies evolving but it is getting to the point of absurdity the way modern marxist ignore history, the way marxists thought of the day, their arguments and the arguments against them. Then try to apply their views of marxism which are different to previous & other current marxists

i did not realize that the broad consensus that the soviet union was not a good model for a classless society seemed like rapid and repeated shifting of the goal posts. unless that is how you unfavorably define productive debate in a discourse community.

>>9576197
>Not ridiculous at all. Just because a few outliers tried to distance themselves in the beginning before the mass exodus does not mean that in those days it wasn't largely accepted as proof of concept by marxists and not only that but it was marxists trying to implement marxism through marxist bridging policies ie. nationalization

disingenuous. again you dont have to go back much further than trotsky himself to see critiques of the ussr from within marxism. but see also friedrich pollock, ernest mandel, antonio gramsci and louis althusser on the philosophical side, nicos poulantzas if you want an economically-skewed historian—and obviously the intellectual currents in which these figures are enmeshed—for robust criticisms that attempt to recover marx's thinking from soviet dogma.

>>9576197
>On top of that we can't ignore the Fabian Marxists of Europe with their approach of gradualism, with anchors in traditional marxism, welfare state democratic socialism & Keynesian economics, they are marxists implementing marxist supported policies on the road to marxism whether internet marxists know they exist or interact with them at all.

you're implying objections to, especially, keynesianism, that have no been substantiated. and even if a "more efficient" economy is better there's no reason to suggest—especially with marginalism in play to determine wages for menial work, as it still does—that it improves the lives of the people living under it in the way keynesianism was able to do in the post war years.

>>9571058
Marxists don't care about any of that shit. You've memes yourself retarded.

>>9571422
This is one of the only posts that evidences even a passing familiarity with Marxism. The general level of knowledge on this board, at least when it comes to political philosophy and political theory, isn't deep enough to have actual discussions that go beyond repeating memes and buzzwords. :(

>>9572697
Going to highlight cockshott as particularly important. Uses theoretical computer science to prove that planning is calculable. Austrianfags and capitalist normies who still lean on Hayek's arguments BTFO

>all those leftist reading lists

can't believe i wasted my 20s reading junk like that

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>only one person so far has mentioned kropotkin
go read this man

>>9576864
>the Communist manifesto
Don't listen to this fucking idiot, the manifesto is garbage and has no theory at all. Principles of Communism is short as fuck and still contains more theory than the manifesto. After that read
>Wage Labour and Capital
>Critique of the Gotha Programme
>The German Ideology

>>9577396
>le college leftist meme
I can guarantee you didn't read shit and if you did it was idpol liberal crap

>>9577381
> production can be calculated mathematically

Oh fuck off back to the Zeitgeist funeral for Fresco.

>>9577306
> soviet union was not a good model for a classless society seemed like rapid and repeated shifting of the goal posts

Not what I meant at all. The goal posts seem to move rapidly because of the continuing & evolving (and particularly branching) debate over a long span of time. At one point it was argued that people can centrally plan production, the next computers, alongside that it goes from production to various other values & valued outcomes. It has nothing to do with whether the USSR is a good example of marxist end goals, critiquing the end goal is different to critiquing the examples of attempted transition, doesn't invalidate the critique just because you distance yourself from examples, it depends on what people are trying to argue and what they value. If people are trying to argue central planning for economic calculation as marxists of the day argued & held the USSR up as proof of concept then you bet people will critique that. You have to be careful when trying to defend your very narrow and specific view of a broad ideology, especially when definitions/values/parameters aren't established for discussion you've got to take into account why there is such a nuance. Not everyones trying to be deliberately misleading in a century old debate human interaction isn't that simple.

> disingenuous. again you dont have to go back much further than trotsky himself to see critiques of the ussr from within marxism.

Maybe, unintentionally if anything. I haven't seen many quantify the level of support of the USSR by number of intellectuals but what can be easily viewed is the literature of the time vs literature after the fact alongside particularly stances & opinions of major marxist groups like for example the Fabians & of course supporters of Lenin world wide et al.

> you're implying objections to, especially, keynesianism, that have no been substantiated

Not what I was trying to convey at all. My point is in various incarnations marxists have sought to implement marxism in various ways through marxist supported policies & methods. All of this nuance and variations can't be ignored for only 1 persons interpretation of a bast ideology that people have been critiquing for over 100 years.

>>9577575
I can't parse this, but if you're insinuating that economic calculation is still an insurmountable theoretical problem for socialist planning, check out Cockshott and Cottrell's Towards a New Socialism.

>>9571251
mi negro guajiro
i love eduardo galeano

>>9570685
they are intellectuals, either you like it or not
fubists scums they are, but intellectuals nonetheless
>>9575339
source: your ass
>>9572790
your post reeks of american fatass hillbilly

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>90% of posts who have no idea what they're talking about
I/lit/eracy.

>>9569992
I always shill this reading list in threads like these https://edensauvage.wordpress.com/2016/07/25/reading-list-for-aspiring-ultra-lefts/

I'd also recommend you check out theorists beyond "orthodox" Marxism, since that's when the real fun starts, such as the Althusserians, the Frankfurt School, Lefebvre, Foucault, etc.

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>>9577474
Listen to this guy OP, read Critique of the Gotha Programme and you won't turn into a Stalinist (i.e ML).

>>9575580
>On Contradiction as if it was valuable
>The Revolution Betrayed for the same reason
>Being and Event is Leninist Marxsim
>Society of the Spectacle is based on The Prison Notebooks
I think it's otherwise a good list, but what the fuck?

>>9572756
>David "I don't get the value-form" Harvey
No.

>>9570674
K Y S

>>9570724
>Unironically thinking liberals are leftists
Read a fucking book

>>9579078
I think he's talking about post-structuralists anon.

>>9572656
Don't act like you don't know why.

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>>9579078

>implying leftism hasn't been vitiated by petty identity politics bickering

>>9579078
>d-dey not real leftists!!

>>9578281
Will do but the idea of using computers to calculate production is quite old and filled with holes. Human subjectivity is not a mathematical equation or else psychologists would've used maths tp predict & control behavior years ago, eveb though they try with complex algorithms.

>>9578281
The stock market is the closest imo you can get, but thats just to determine prices through input & not replace them.

>>9570640
My boi

what would it actually look like if the workers owned the means of production?

i mean, do you really think people mixing the stuff at the coca-cola factory, should own coca-cola? that sounds insane to me.

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>>9578281
>dude we can just calculate stuff lmao

If you still think economic central planning is viable, even after Mises and Hayek's refutations, you should read Taleb.

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>>9579347
Actual Leftists, not liberals who just want a nicer sounding capitalist state where the bourgeoise are now "diverse", completely reject idpol due to its inherent nature in dividing the working class amoung non-material lines and being more or less a commoditized spectacle manufactured by the elite (COINTELPRO sometimes gets thrown around). Antifa is also mostly despised as nothing more then middle-class opportunist reactionaries who haven't read any theory and put "Feels>Reals". Social Liberals are capitalist through and through and will happily change the narrative to idpol in order to avoid class topics and break up labor.

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>>9580546

>>9580554
ows was right around the time i stopped being a leftist...there were no fucking jobs, the economy was dead, the stock market was tanking, and i had student loans...that's when i started to realize no bourgeois leftist in a tent in manhattan is going to help me with any of these problems. i didn't know about stirner back then but i basically became an egoist when i thought why am i spending all this energy to help other people that will never help me in return while i have bills to pay, fuck leftism, i wasted a solid 10 years of my life being a marxist fool

Am i allowed to read the leftist literature after the Greeks?

>>9575998
It must feel good to collapse an entire spectrum of political thought into a single shitty ideology like Stalinism.

>inb4 muh libertarian market ISN'T IMPERIALISM

>>9569992

It's very hard to not appear as an asshole edgy bastard saying this but, "left thinking" is pretty much a zombified meme nowadays OP. At this point no one is able to seggregate politics from economy anymore, and economy is driven by, and a servant to, the Capital. I am going to unironically recommend that you instead turn to right wing thinkers in order to understand what the left has become (and to know where it came from, look no further than your pic related really). Consider reading Taleb's Antifragile, Piketty's Capital in the 21st century (not so much of a right winger, very enjoyable also), Land's Fanged Noumena, Hoppe's Democracy: the God that Failed, etc.

If you insist on taking a direct look at what Left movements look like today, just turn into the myriad of postmodern progressive works dealing with identity politics, political correctness, anti-racism, pro-immigration, etc. "The Rent Trap" by Walker, "Sound System: The Political Power of Music" by Randall, "CUT OUT: Living Without Welfare" by someone I don't even remember would be a few takes on recent leftist books. I have not read them fully nor will I ever, and I doubt you will also extract much from them.

>>9570640
well hitler was a socialist so your technically not wrong

>>9569992
John Dewey's Liberalism and Social Action. Provides a concise overview of the true history of liberalism, holds a passionately skeptical view toward Marx and the idea of revolution, really places pressure on the Bentham-Mill developments that gave us a robust liberal thought but also made epistemic space for "state and money lol" fags to come in and ruin everything (see: literally the last two hundred years if liberalism), all within under 100 pages. V boring conclusion however. Dewey is basically that Platonist who never read beyond like Book 3 of the Republic (still better than basically every other American socio-political thinker though so lol fuck it).

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>>9580564
Well, Egoism is still leftist (technically post-left) as Stirner rejects capitalism as a system (as private property is a "spook" being enforced by the state) and instead calls for there to be "Unions of Egoists" who work in their collective self-interests. I'll admit modern day leftism is filled with larpers and lifestylists who do it, ironically, as a consumer trend. I'm actually not a Marxist in all honesty, though I do find many of the conclusions to be true i.e. capitalism is a race to the bottom in which bussiness owners will always be on the look out for ways to cut costs and with automation most jobs will be relegated to maintenance, design, or security leaving the majority of the populace in a class unable to find work or doing low wage menial tasks. I also think its absurd to think that capitalism is somehow the final system given how new technology is coming out every day that puts us closer and closer to a trans-humanist society.
>inb4 Accelerationism

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>>9580598
>Gives worst left examples of books he's never read leaving out modern thinkers like Zizek and Harvey
>Advises reading Hoppe
>Thinks rent trapping is postmodern when its an observable phenomenon thats been proven and Henry George explained how rent increases with wages in Progress and Poverty
Is this bait or ideology?

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>>9580729

Zizek wants nothing to do with the modern Left. His claims on everything are mild compared to the schizophrenic dellusions of the people actually "leading the movement". If the OP wants to know what the left used to be, he can start with Marx instead of Zizek, whereas he has interesting ideas in his own rights but will definitely not put OP in synch with the modern left.

Rent is a real deal alright, but that book is a standard Left-is-right-haha-I-mean-correct-guys treatment of it, and yes I have no need to read it fully to see that.

Alas, it is obviously bait not even trying to hide itself as driven by ideology: why would anyone want the OP to actually become a leftist?

>>9575580
Why did you make this so difficult to follow?

What is Kant's Critique doing outside module 1? It is a primer to everything else? Kant's CPR is fucking difficult to read.

>>9569992
Concrete

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>>9580757
Modern "Left" is pretty cancerous but thats why I think OP should focus on older or competent leftist thinkers then the mostly social liberal infested "Leftist" literature of today. It takes a while to read all of Marx and Engels but you only need a few minutes of reading any insectional or political party based literature after reading Marx to see it for the garbage it is.

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yeah, you could say i read. heh. i don't just "read". i've read it all. hegel? who do i look like? bookchin? pft, try again. i've got it all figured out. no one's read more than i have. i've read the best. i read and i nod my head. i made one long list of books before i got into theory. now? they're all crossed out, just like kill bill. just like the school curriculum. fractions? tick. persuasive writing? A+.
my long road to knowledge is complete. i've got it all figured out. just try me.

>>9575580
>implying a single person on /pol/ (including the guy who made this chart) has read all of these

>>9580866
I love this post.