>antinatalism is nihilistic Where do people get this idea?

>antinatalism is retarded

FTFY. They're also not wrong.

>>9548090
Because people tend to believe that pessimism is the same as nihilism, a belief that's reinforced by edgy idiots calling themselves nihilists misinterpreting pessimistic philosophers (Nietzsche in particular got hit hard with this).

Antinatalism comes mainly from pessimists like good old Schopes, Zapffe and Ligotti

>>9548090
Because it is pessimistic and pessimism is a precursor to nihilism.

Nice rare Schopie

>>9548090
Schopenhauer was a very bitter man from what I can gather. Bitter at women. Bitter at life itself.

>>9548090
1. A man did not exist.
2. Now this man exists.
3. This man prefers existing to not existing now.
4. This man did not prefer not existing to existing when he did not exist.
5. Existing is thus always preferable to not existing.

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>>9548145
>b-but muh suffering!

>>9548145
>total moral subjectivity

Now THAT'S nihilism

>>9548143
Zapffe was far less bitter about life than Schopie (he loved mountaineering per example) and his antinatalism was arguably even more firm than Schopenhauer

>>9548145
The pessimist’s credo, or one of them, is that nonexistence never hurt anyone and existence hurts everyone

>>9548145
>>9548097
BTW, I don't want to debate the merits of antinatalism. I'm just saying anyone who calls it nihilistic clearly doesn't understand what nihilism actually is. In fact since the position is built on a moral foundation of reducing harm to conscious life it can become an entire lifestyle ethic involving practices like veganism and charitable efforts. Its about as far from a nihilistic position as you can get.

>>9548154
>The pessimist’s credo, or one of them, is that nonexistence never hurt anyone and existence hurts everyone
But nonexistence never exists in itself. It's entirely conceived as an abstract opposite of something which exists. If there is nobody who never got hurt, what's the point at all of making the argument?

Additionally, why even uphold the notion that negative experiences outweigh positive experiences?

>>9548177
By that logic I could go outside and start killing people because that stops them from begetting millions of potential decendants.

>>9548193
>By that logic I could go outside and start killing people because that stops them from begetting millions of potential decendants.

You could kill people over any convenient interpretation of a belief system. Its obviously going to cause less harm to try to convince people not to reproduce than to kill them. Personal responsibility can take up the slack. Once you've explained the premises and they choose to ignore them, that's on them. This is how religion works too. Furthermore I'm an agnostic so I don't think it follows that killing people reduces their suffering as their conscious existence might go somewhere even worse than this reality.

>>9548237
>Furthermore I'm an agnostic
You're a faggot is what you are.

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>>9548262
I accept your resignation

>>9548237
I like to make another human beings suffer,
So thus I would like to create as much another human beings as possible,
Since this will grant them the worst imaginable suffering — the suffering of being thrown in the world without considering with their oppinion on this topic,
If somebody will tell me I can't do this — I will suffer because my own dreams won't be real.

Therefore, antinatalism is a harmful philosophy.

>>9548114
>Nietsche
>Pessimistic
Nah, not really.

Antinatalism is just another retarded philosophy that makes the baseless assumption that humans are "born into existence".

>>9548305
Then I guess you're a nihilist. You don''t believe in self necessary premises.

>>9548305
>I like to make another human beings suffer,
your shit grasp of the English language is certainly succeeding in doing so.

>>9548327
Well, what would be an assumption grounded in evidence then? That you can't know nuthin'?

>>9548315
i like to call him a "life affirming pessimist"

>>9548334
Then I use the language — I declare its rules. Hence, you can fuck off and suffer with you mouth closed, because your GRASP is not better than mine.

>>9548336
Assumptions based on observation and logic.

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>>9548327
Okay tell me about your past existence as an Atlantean princess anon. If there's any premises we can be sure of its things like

1. A person's conscious experience begins following their conception
2. Suffering sucks

If you can't agree on something as simple as that then why even try to communicate any ideas of any kind?

>>9548376
And to what assumption would that lead us if not that humans are "born into existence"?

>>9548377
>If there's any premises we can be sure of its things like
>1. Long string of arbitrary terms.
>2. Short string of arbitrary terms.
How about no.

>>9548391
What? I can't hear you over the complete breakdown of communicable thought pal.

>>9548388
Have you ever observed something entering existence from somewhere else? Do you know of any reasoning that would allow something like that to occur without causing paradoxes?

>>9548145
4 is where you diverge from being into nonsense.

>>9548305
>If somebody will tell me I can't do this — I will suffer because my own dreams won't be real.

What did he mean by this

>>9548377
Suffering or what you're really grasping at, agon, is a necessary component of life. Is antinatalism really just based on me rejecting one key aspect of physicality and jumping to the conclusion that no one should be allowed to reproduce?

>>9548090
Because the only people who support it are angsty losers projecting their failures onto the world

>>9548145
>3
False.
>4
False, can't attribute a characteristic or an action to something that doesn't exist, see: Kant.

>>9548145
3 is not an easy position to defend, and even if it is true, 5 is not a logical conclusion to your reasoning.

if babies didn't want to be born why can women manage to get pregnant and carry a child as it develops for 9 months?

>>9548478
>>9548512
How is 3 either false or not easy to defend? I gather that there are some suicidal humans who wish to end their life but they are the exception to the rule.

(4) simply states that something that does not exist can't prefer something.

Which means that under any circumstance (3) applies, granting it universality.

>>9548530
Because it's their body and they do what they want with it, you fucking misogynist.

>>9548546
You can't have a child without a fitting zygote. It's why you can't just shove anything up there and watch it grow. If the baby didn't want to be born why did it spend 9 months actively dividing and growing so it could be born? If all cells just aborted themselves then the child would never have to suffer existence. Therefore children do want to be born, and you don't need asking them.

Anti-natalism is a Christian idea.

>>9548090
it's just cuckoldry

>>9548542
Not killing yourself is a basic instinct, not doing it doesn't imply you like living.
>>9548563
Fuck off.

anti-natalism being trendy and popular now is a good way to identify narcissists and sociopaths

there is no rational reason for anti-natalism.

>>9548589

you fuck off. christian tradition gave western civilization the notion that chastity is a virtue.

The reason people think antinatalism is nihilist stems from taking antinatalism to its logical furthest extent.

If everyone on the planet were suddenly convinced by the moral/ethical arguments of antinatalism and everyone decided not to have babies then humanity would cease to exist after the last generation born dies off. Barring some miraculous immortality science being developed in the mean time.

Nihilism is commonly understood to mean that traditional morals, values, or meanings have no real value.

The existence and survival of the human species is commonly seen as important. So rejecting that humans need to reproduce to continue our survival as a species is nihilistic because it rejects the common and traditional value of the perennial value of life, and human life continuing.

So either antinatalism is nihilistic because if it were a universal moral truth accepted by all then it would lead to extinction. It is unlikely a very large portion of the population will adopt a philosophy that leads to non existence of the species. Or it is a moral philosophy that can only be adopted by a small segment of society without risking our long term survival as a species because it is not a universal philosophy intended to be adopted by everyone. And if it is not a universal philosophy meant for everyone to adopt immediately then it has a very unconvincing appeal. People are more persuaded by ethical arguments that are meant to bind everyone.

>>9548451
>suffering is a necessary component of life

I never said it wasn't.

>>9548546
Its hard to argue that the fetus inside the woman is her body when it has a unique genetic code distinct from hers. It is the separate parasitic body of a distinct human individual. The fact that this individual is temporarily parasitic does not in anyway reduce its unique genetic individuality. An umbilical connection between two human bodies does not make them into one human body regardless the level of development. They are from conception a distinct and separate set if individuals developing at different rates and with separate genetic identities. There is no logical way to argue that the fetus is her body when it can be shown that everything that fetus is doing developmentally is designed to increase distinction and independence as a separate body.

I'm not trying to promote anything or restrict anything. I think a woman should have sovereignty over her body and all the cells that make up that body with matching DNA. But the fetus has a new genetic code and is in fact a separate body. What she does effects that body as well.

>>9548563
Even if it weren't it ought to be. Not only does it really bolster the asymmetry argument to presuppose that hell exists, Christians take an extremely reckless risk on behalf of their children by reproducing, not least of all because of the exaggerated exclusivity of salvation. Furthermore its entirely reconcilable. Often when I get into this debate, the Christian will quote "be fruitful and multiply". Fella, those are instructions given to the first man on earth and the last man remaining after the flood. If that's all you got against the various verses of the apostles treating marriage as only an outlet for lust and calling on people to commit themselves to celibacy then you are probably grasping at straws.

>>9548675

in the middle ages it was understood that most men were too weak to be pious enough for celibacy, this was why they had to toil and suffer more than those of the clergy or monasteries.

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I was an antinatalist until I realised we are here to create God.

I'm an accelerationist now. Praise Gnon.

>>9548719

How are you helping to build G-d? I hope you are studying applicable quantum mechanics.

>>9548725
No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

>>9548725
I put pamphlets about Roko's basilisk in peoples mailboxes.

>>9548688
What's more is that for those Christians who believe the end is nigh they are actually directly defying the word of God by reproducing.

"And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!"

Matthew 24:19

This is a passage unambiguously endorsing a conditional antinatalism.

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>>9548725
>tfw iq too low to help build G-d
>can only praise him

>>9548763
Do you even lift bro?

>>9548802
How does lifting accelerate technological process?

>>9548818

construction of G-d's physical form that he might destroy us all

>>9548603
this, let's just ignore catholics combating gnosticism and condemning nonreproductive sex for the sake of your shitty argument

>>9548876
Even scripture condemns nonreproductive sex. Food isn't meant to be an entertainment either. However both celibacy and fasting are encouraged by scripture.

>>9549034
what is supposed to be entertainment?

>>9549038
nothing really. Abrahamic religion is very bland. No wonder Constantine saw the value in it.

>>9548090
Antinatalism is an anti-intellectual pleb philosophy.

>>9549082
>in order to be intellectual you have to fall for the birth meme
Try again, childcuck