Plato

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read and reread everything

>>9530248
Ah, nice image. Thanks.

>>9530218
>...will I develop a sound knowledge on Plato?

You don't develop a sound knowledge of Plato by reading him. You develop a knowledge of the mainstream acceptance of what Plato meant by reading Neo-Platonists and secondary sources.

You read Plato to develop a philosophical way of thinking and for the excellent writing, but, honestly, nobody knew what he meant.

>>9530555
>Nobody knew what he meant
I don't deny that reading secondary sources is auspicious to understanding Plato, but his works are not that esoteric. They aren't a walk in the park, but you can understand Plato by reading him.

>>9530218
E -> A -> C -> M -> R -> S -> P

>>9530248

My fucking luck, the "anthology" I bought doesn't include Phaedro, and devotes half the volume to Republic, of which I already have a copy.

>>9530218
Add Phaedrus and Timaeus

>>9530572
not him but they are though. in fact plato knew this. heres an excerpt from the anonymous prolegomena to platonic philosophy:
>Plato himself, shortly before his death, had a dream of himself as a swan, darting from tree to tree and causing great trouble to the fowlers, who were unable to catch him. When Simmias the Socratic heard this dream he explained that everyone would endeavour to grasp Plato’s meaning; none, however, would succeed, but each would interpret him according to his own views.

this is from the westerink translation which you can easily find and purchase online.

the ancients knew this and its baffling how us moderns are oblivious to this. the fact that we can never pin down plato is only proof that his writings express philosophy (and not sophia) in the fullest sense. its a good thing rather than a bad one.

>>9530218
Apology - 127
Euthyphro - 128
Cratylus - 120
Crito - 116
The Symposium - 131
Phaedrus - 144
Phaedo - 144
Meno - 32
Republic - 416
Law - 200
Gorgias - 208
Parmenides - 96
Theaetetus - 272
Sophist - 144
Statesman - 121
Timaeus – 112

read in this order
on the right is the estimate number of pages

reading Plato is like reading the Bible

some people study the Bible their whole lives and never receive faith

some people study Plato their whole lives and never contemplate the forms

it's ironic, because someone who reads one dialogue one afternoon can achieve more than a scholar does in his entire life. maybe this is why Plato thought that some souls were gold, some silver, some iron . . .

>>9530785
>>9530555
you are correct
Plato is not like the other philosophers. He doesn't write essays with premises and conclusions. His dialogues are a kind of ritual that a meant to induct your mind into a way of thinking; it's more a spiritual exercise that is supposed to awaken to the immateriality & immortality of your soul.

the false academic understanding of Plato is shown here >>9530248 see how the academic writes "No result." as the conclusion to some of the dialogues . . . oblivious to the fact that the "result" is supposed to take place in the reader's soul, not in the dialogue itself, by awakening in him philosophy (love of wisdom)
this is because these academics read Plato as "the father of western philosophy" or some other nonsense, and try to understand his arguments (he doesn't really have any, his arguments are a means, not an end), his conclusions (again, he doesn't really have any, which is why he ends a lot of his dialogues with Socrates saying something along the lines of, "well, all I know is I know nothing"), and the role he played in the development of western schools (entirely coincidental to the dialogues themselves).

>>9530819
plato is exactly like other philosophers. Excluding very few, most great works are written with some element of dialectic. (see: aristotle, founder of dialectic prose)

>>9530218
jpg distortion on a png. This is vaporwave BS.

>>9530794
>you can't appreciate a work unless you adopt the view urged therein
what did he mean by this?

>>9530218
Why not? Youll have to read The Laws too, however. And I'd rec Timaeus, Theatatus and Parmenides as well.

>>9530786
Euthyphro and Crito are not that fucking long unless my memory deceives me

>>9530615
>half the volume is Republic
You're missing 60% of Plato

>>9530786
Your edition is fucked. Literally almost 2x the typical page count for most of those, up to 3-4x for some. Cratylus is ~60, Repub ~270. Nothing besides Repub/Laws is over 100 pages.

>the false academic understanding of Plato is shown here >>9530248 see how the academic writes "No result." as the conclusion to some of the dialogues . . . oblivious to the fact that the "result" is supposed to take place in the reader's soul, not in the dialogue itself
>implying you outwitted Copleston
You're talking about "aporia" and you're fucking retarded if you think Copleston wasn't well aware of it. There is no single "the academic understanding" because, as a consequence of exactly the irony and imagery and literary qualities that you must be aware of when you say that Plato is not simply premises/conclusions, there is no single tradition of interpretation of Platonic tradition. His meanings have literally been debated since he lived, and to write off "the academics" as equally wrong is to falsely lump them together, and then to add yourself to those same ranks, being wrong yourself.

>he doesn't really have any, his arguments are a means, not an end
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. There are arguments that are undeniably meant for more than a "means." Sometimes the end is clear, sometimes not. Not every dialogue is equally ironic/aporetic. To lump Laws with something like Parmenides and make a blanket comment on them is stupid.

>his conclusions (again, he doesn't really have any, which is why he ends a lot of his dialogues with Socrates saying something along the lines of, "well, all I know is I know nothing")

This is what happens when you don't read Laws, don't think about the developmental angle of Platonic thought, and think you're smarter than people who spent their whole lives studying Plato and don't even consider their ideas. This is just plain wrong.

Read more Plato, read commentary on Plato. You clearly know a lot but still have more to get into. You've overcorrected from "Plato had definite doctrines" to "Plato had zero definite doctrines" when the reality is a vague, muddled middle ground whose boundaries and results have been debated for millennia. You're not going to find the right answers and neither am I, but please notice the irony in making definite pronouncements that Plato made no definite pronouncements.

>>9532122
It's hard to parse out the "essential" Plato because almost all of it is excellent. All I'd say is leave Laws for last, if at all. It's interesting at times and crucially different from Republic (and smaller earlier works) at some key points, but a fair bit of it is dull, and you're better off reading, like you said, something like Timaeus, if you haven't already.

I like this thread, I've been reading the five dialogues.

>what is religousness and shit? Fuck I unno.
>hey I asked questions like a dick, what are you gonna do? Sue me?
>Oh shit I'm gonna go to jail and die. Oh well. Sounds good
>Hey meno, can you learn to stop being a fag or is that something that can't be taught?
It's fun. I like Plato.