Postmodernism is objectively terrible garbage for pseuds and

>>9507315
Postmodernism completely BTFO the pseuds and tryhards of modernism

>>9507315
has this kind-of-post always been a meme or is it fairly new??

>>9507324
There's a Canadian newfriend who is a dedicated anti-postmodernist who makes these threads all the time so someone will eventually reach him and explain postmodernism in a way he can understand

>>9507323
Ulysses is a modernist work and is heralded as probably the most important modern novel.

Where is postmodernism's Ulysses? It doesn't exist because postmodernism is all empty calories.

>>9507315
Can't prove you wrong, you are right
>>9507323
Be b

>>9507350
>the most important modern novel.

i.e. no one reads it except pseuds and tryhards

>>9507323
By being even more ironicaly pseudo and tryhard?

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>>9507350
Ulysses is trash

>>9507374
Postmodernism is a lack of trying

Idk man maybe your pseudo tryhard modernist mind can't differentiate between the problems of modernism and postmodernism

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>>9507381
Does this count?

>>9507399
That's a transitional work like Stella but still works as an example of )the beginnings of) postmodernism BTFOing modernism, since you see here the modernist aesthetic project represented by Greenbergian formalism taken to its logical conclusion. Self-referential painting-as-itself becomes just a three-dimensional object on a wall. 'Hard' postmodernism tends to move away from the art object

>>9507350
Infinite Jest

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>>9507413
>transitional work
> greenbergian formalism
>self representional painting as self
>art object
>modernist aesthetic project
Art isn't a secret language for sofiscicts to congratulate themselves on thier own superiority.
Protip: if you have to explain a work, it sucks.
Also you are all following the emperor with no clothes, that painting is just to laundry money with a tax benefit

>>9507413
>that retarded interpretation of the motivations behind color field painting
you still don't get it

>>9507350
"high" modernist novels such as Ulysses don't have the propensity for memery, nor the tasteless expertise for colliding high and low culture like Tom Pynchon's GR.

>>9507445
>if you have to explain a work, it sucks
>>>/r/books
>>>/pol/
>>>/not here/

>>9507445
If I have to give an historical account of aesthetic developments as they occurred in the 20th century the work sucks? Is the same logic applied to work of the 19th century? 18th?

>>9507453
I didn't say anything about motivations.

>>9507467
You literally did.

>>9507474
Where?

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>>9507462
aesthetic developments and history can always be interesting and enriching.
But if the work doesn't stand on it's own, and you have to be 'told' it's good and important, something has gone wrong.

>>9507480
>look at me, I'm retarded *farts* xD

>>9507487
If you want to sit here asserting your superiority without actually proving it, fine, you're smarter than me. You can leave the thread now. I don't want to do all the typing for you.

>>9507485
does shitty pixel art stand on its own?

>>9507485
It's important to the aesthetic developments in history. What do you think a canon is?

I haven't said anything about the quality of the work other than it represents the transition from art object to art system, i.e. modernism to postmodernism.

>>9507495
Which one would you make your computer background if you ONLY had these choices?
>>9507377
>>9507399
>>9507485
?

>>9507494
Stop being deliberately obtuse and maybe we can talk. Discussing art is hard enough without having to deal with a dense motherfuckers

>>9507504
You're the one who refuses to actually qualify any of your posts. This post I am replying to is the first of yours that has actually exceeded one sentence.

What specifically did you interpret as 'motivations' of colour field painting?

>>9507499
>haven't said anything about the quality of the work
Then stop talking.
This isn't history class, it is aesthetics. Don't confuse the two. Broken roman pots and pans and tools in a museum are interesting history, not interesting art

>>9507503
>Which one would you make your computer background if you ONLY had these choices?
The Newman, given I've had access to a decent enough high-def image

>>9507509
>What specifically did you interpret as 'motivations' of colour field painting?
Have you tried looking at the post I was initially replying to? That might give you a clue

>>9507513
20th-century aesthetics are based on history and historical developments of art. You can't talk about one without the other.

In any case if you don't like the quality of the work you don't like modernism, and my point about postmodernists BTFOing modernists is still uncontested since you effectively agree. How well can you read?

>>9507323
Postmodernism already is a fart in the winds of history
Modernism at least has a legacy

>>9507519
There are a couple of things that could be interpreted as 'motivations' which is why I asked you to be specific. I can't read your mind, which is why people talk, or in this case type. Imagine if you did that shit 15 minutes ago when you first made your snarky reply.

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>>9507522
Please give me your eucatin on this fine modern work

>>9507528
Postmodernism has basically been left unchanged and unchallenged for 40 years and that's just a conventional dating. If you include Duchamp it's 100. Only Surrealism remained relevant for that long.

>>9507545
Make that 50 years, so it has outlasted even Surrealism.

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There seems to be some very well informed people here.
Please explain these works so I can enjoy it and stop being a pleb

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>>9507556
Also please tell me about this

>>9507564
Funny thing about Baroque is no one liked it until the 20th century.

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>>9507564
And this

Are you one of those faggots who think that "real" art is exclusively neoclassic photorealistic paintings of baby jesus?
Fuck off, art is about ethics and aesthetics, not about technique or talent.

>>9507545
>>9507555
>Postmodernism has basically been left unchanged and unchallenged for 40 years and that's just a conventional dating.
Postmodern architecture is a failure and a meme
Postmodern philosophy is literally hated by the majority of academia and dilettantes
Postmodern literature hasn't produced anything as lasting as the great Modernist works
Postmodern painting is deemed by most people as a money-laundering scheme
Postmodern urban planning kills people

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>>9507572
>art is about ethics

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>>9507545
>Surrealism not relevant
What does that even mean?
I think your brain is addled from smelling your own farts from too many wine tasting parties, I would slap you to the ground if you dripped this verbal dirrera in front of me, then at the trial I would claim the slapping was a work of art and get the important ssmughead papers to agree and you'd have to drop the charges to maintain your sense of importance

>>9507582
Did you wish your mother a happy Mother's Day today?

>>9507587
I'm referring to trascendental artistic ethics not related to mundane human moral customs.

>>9507592
>It's still real to me dammit!

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>>9507595
The japanese are the future of art again.
Nice trolling btw, the sad part is there are actual books that talk like you.

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>>9507593
haha what a postmodern reply! irony is really amazing and refreshing

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>>9507515
4u

>>9507607
I'm being serious.
Also, sauce?

>>9507610
I don't know how you expected me to reply to your unqualified opinions that just read like you feeling mad and unloved. You're obviously not really into the whole 'discussion with reference to actual art' thing so I don't know why you're here actually. Stop associating yourself with postmodernism, even to hate it. You'll feel better.

>>9507582
what the fuck

>>9507595
>trascendental artistic ethics
Please refrain from posting.

>>9507592
>>9507598
>>9507445
>my arguments can be expressed in 4-panel reddit-tier comics
Wow...

>>9507582
As what would Kurt Vonnegut classify?

>>9507582
>Postmodern literature hasn't produced anything as lasting as the great Modernist works

Holy shit dude it's almost like that's a defining principle of postmodernism of something whoa

>>9507315
shut the fuck up you stupid reddit cuck

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The best is when a museum fucks up and hangs modern or post modern art too close good art and you can compare them and see how absolutely trash most modern AND post modern art is and how trash anyone who likes it is.
Most museums are smart enough to at least put them on different floors or better different buildings so it's harder for the half alseep plebs to realize they have been rused

>>9507620
>expecting qualified opinions on fucking 4chan
Your piss poor piece of psychoanalysis aside, my statements come after much research on the topic. I'm an art history student, after all.

>>9507629
>As what would Kurt Vonnegut classify?
as "not as lasting as the great Modernist works"

>>9507632
Irrelevance is a core principle of postmodern literature?

>>9507628
>cabin and hoodies
>Reddit tier
Kill yourself with a hammer.
More like your position is so retarded it gets btfo with 4panel comics

>>9507648
I imagine some maniera greca workshop assistant saying of the new Renaissance style "if you need theory to understand it it's shit art" and that depictions of the Madonna are timeless unlike Greek myth and that it's just an intellectual circle jerk for educated elites since they're the only patrons of it

>>9507445
/lit/ gets FUCKING EVISCERATED in two panels of a newspaper comic

>>9507658
Calvin and Hobbes is reddit-tier.
The only 4chan-approved comic strips are Peanuts and The Far Side.

>>9507653
>about Kurt Vonnegut
"his works are perfect go-to texts if you're trying to get a handle on some of the main themes and techniques of postmodern literature."

About Orwell
>"Orwell was a modern writer writing"

Yet Slaughterhouse 5 is way more in depth than 1984 and at least as memorable

>>9507564
a bit busy innit

>>9507653
>I'm an art history student, after all.

I'm an art history graduate, kid. Get on my level. I look at art objectively and I'm not so keen to let my undergrad opinions fly when I haven't even completed study.

>>9507653
>Irrelevance is a core principle of postmodern literature?

Problem?

>>9507653
>I'm an art history student, after all.
I'm a Master of Arts (Art History Masters Degree); where are you studying?

>>9507568
what do you mean?

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>>9507620
>discussion with reference to actual art' thing
.....
You know what pisses me off about the whole modern and post modern art scene? Is there are actual good contemporary artists working right now (pic related) that don't get enough attention because of pysdo intellectuals and the bad artists spending more time on promotion than art. These are the paintings that should be selling for millions, no those no talent media hacks, and people like you are the problem

>>9507688
People like me, "art historians", try to evaluate art based on socio-historic and theoretical contexts because it is fair to all art past and present. You don't know what you're talking about.

Why should that painting sell for millions?

>>9507684
I mean it wasn't of any academic interest until the 20s.

>>9507688
paintings sell for millions because the art scene is a means to launder money.

>>9507582
>Postmodern architecture is a failure and a meme
this.
whoever thought throwing functionality out of the window was a good idea should be impaled

>>9507658
It's four panels of unfunny and unoriginal strawmanning. It btfos nothing. C&H has good moments but these are pathetically lazy strips. I wouldn't mind a deeper critique of the current state of things but C&H is a couple of lightyears away from being that.
Ironically it is postmodernism that enabled us to view caricatures and sunday comic strips as serious art worthy of attention and analysis.

>>9507688
>some kitschy pseudo-Chagall is good
pro tip: no

>>9507708
>evaluate art based on socio-historic and theoretical contexts
pleb, only aesthetics matter

>>9507723
Aesthetics is theory.

The only tenet of PoMo - that is, if talking about postmodern tenets even makes sense - that succesfully crawled into mainstream culture is the dissolution of the divide between high and low culture. Yet, this movement could be explained by the homogeneizing power of late capitalism rathen than an artistic choice

>>9507611
thanks f a m

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>>9507717
>some kitschy pseudo-Chagall is good
It is good.
Go jack off to this please painting
>>9507377
I've seen Daniel merrriuam's work in person, it's amazing, too bad it costs 80,000 now, I have a few HQ prints though. And his style is unquie, and even if it wasn't just because a style or method been done doesn't make new work automatically bad so please come up with a better aurgument than
>kitschy pseudo-Chagall
If you don't want to sound aesthically handicapped

>>9507730
No is not, aesthetic is inherent

>>9507763
Did you have a heart attack before you finished your post?

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>>9507760
>Chagall
Pic related
>like daniel merriam in anyway .
Opinions discarded

>>9507760
"I like it"
>source: genuine aesthetic model based on pure rationalism

>>9507774
God dammit I thought I wrote it correctly, I mean to say that aesthetics are something innate to the thing and you don't need much theory to get it, maybe exposure for more complicated works

>>9507778
Meant for
>>9507717

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The sheer power of postmodern architecture

>>9507788
>Looks like fries
>Situated over a McDonalds

PURE
O
T
T
E
R
Y

>>9507788
>Make the building look like french fries
>mcdonald's logo at the bottom
Really made me think

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>>9507788
Are you referring to the McDonald's logo in this pic?

>>9507315
Here's how I see it:
Anti-Post-Modernists think good art only factors on it's beauty, whether they see it as a measurement of the artist's talent, or that the sole purpose of art is to be "awe-inspiring", or to be more to the point, something that makes them feel cultured. Both views make art useless to the audience and something to hang on your wall and admire for a minute to then go back to watching pointless youtube videos.
Post-Modernists think good art only factors on it's meaning, art is supposedly valued on how much it can make the audience think and reflect, or put more simply, how much it makes them feel smart. It makes art into something you pretend to think "deeply" about for a minute to then go back to buying new clothes made by starving Chinese children to fill that hole in your heart, which the artist probably spoke out against.
Art, in all, is a useless endeavor that taken to it's core is escapism.

>>9507788
Holy...

>>9507795
>>9507798
>>9507802

wtf I love postmodernism now

>>9507760
>Daniel merrriuam
Googling this guy's work now I'm trying not to barf

>>9507809

>Art, in all, is a useless endeavor that taken to it's core is escapism

Oscar Wilde pls

>>9507809
Modernists think art only factors on it's ability to make good and rational people, based on the evolution of Enlightenment ideas such as the understanding of self and nature, blending the everyday experience of life with that of art, but people get sick of seeing the same shit every day and then go back to gassing kikes or lynching niggers

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>>9507760
Fuck I'm gonna need to clean my keyboard!

>>9507688
good lord you have god-awful taste in art
please stop posting

>>9507628
Found the 14-year-old who doesn't recognize one of the greatest comics ever made

>>9507668
Shit taste, friend

>>9507688
the problem with you retards is that you expect art to be immediately accessible and thus celebrate the worst of contemporary kitsch which asks nothing of the viewer
to understand the classical music, literature, and art films of contemporary times requires a thorough knowledge of their aesthetic situations. why should this differ in the plastic arts?

>>9507760
He really isn't unique. He looks like he could be illustrating collections of children's fables. Maybe that's the psychological level adequate for you, but that doesn't make him objectively good.

>>9507778
>little use of perspective or volume
>strong warm colours
>surreal themes
etc

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>>9507842
Yeah, the answer clearly lies in filling our cities with ugly, post-functional, self-aware shit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pK7egZaT3hs

who are some essential artists to know in order to understand contemporary art?

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>>9507895
Calvin and Hobbes

>>9507895
non-exhaustive list:
NY AbEx painters (Rothko, Motherwell, Kline, Newman, etc)
Frank Stella
Robert Rauschenberg, Andy Warhol, Jasper Johns
Lucio Fontana
Donald Judd, Sol LeWitt, Carl Andre, Robert Morris
Richard Serra
Cy Twombly
Joseph Beuys
Nam June Paik
Yves Klein
Sigmar Polke
Hans Haacke
Robert Irwin, James Turrell, Dan Flavin
Jannis Kounellis

>>9507917
Add Picasso and Lichtenstein

You're all going wrong guys:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3AV73gC4Dk

Have you subscribed yet?

>>9507917
Robert Smithson also fits in this list.

I don't want to add too much because at some point it becomes overwhelming and people end up just flicking through Google images without actually engaging with the work.

Are all the pomo writers, like DFW, Delillo, McElroy, Barth, and so on, all pseudo intellectuals?

I read an article about how much pharmacology that Infinite Jest got wrong. And if DFW is pomo's poster child...

>>9507969
why don't you read them and find out instead of waiting for others to spoonfeed you a prepackaged opinion you fucking mongoloid

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>>9507445
>if you have to explain work it sucks
>posts the most fedoralord comic besides XKCD

>>9507917
>not mentioning Gerhard Richter
>not mentioning impressionists

>>9508011
Because I did and that's my conclusion. The article I read had more expertise about that than I could have, seeing as the author was in his 40s.

>>9508024
impressionists aren't particularly relevant towards understanding contemporary aesthetics.

>>9508024
>not mentioning Courbet or Manet

Let's not get too silly. Only those painters who were immediate precursors to postmodernism are really relevant to contemporary art.

>>9508032
>>9508036
>Only those painters who were immediate precursors to postmodernism are really relevant to contemporary art.
You clearly have a lot to learn still, which is a good thing, don't worry.

>>9508050
>brainlets fighting about the lowest iq pursuit of them all, art

truly one of the most pathetic arguments ive seen on /lit/

>>9508050
I really don't. Seeing impressionism as the first step towards modernism is a pleb opinion of someone not familiar with art history. It is conventionally said to start with Cezanne or at least the Post- or Neo-Impressionists, because you can go all the way back to the beginning of the Renaissance if you really want to look at its development properly. And certainly American abstract painters looked at the development of painting since that time.

>>9508083
This. Completely unlike shitposting which only attracts the creme de la creme of society.

>>9507688

just dropping into this thread to say that this is one of the ugliest paintings i've seen in awhile. would rather pay for a blank canvas than this

>>9508093
yeah, shitposting is the best

>>9508098
they were baiting. idiot.

>>9508089
Even though Monet's works are now canonized, for a number of years after Monet's death, he was only known in select circles of art lovers. The major renaissance of his work occurred in New York by the Abstract Expressionists. Artists like Mark Rothko and Jackson Pollock, and critics such as Clement Greenberg learned much from Monet's large canvases, and semi-abstract, all-over compositions. Pop artists also referred to Monet's haystacks in pieces like Andy Warhol repeating portraits. Similarly, many Minimalists used the same technique in their serial display of objects. In fact, Impressionism and Monet are now considered the basis for all of modern and contemporary art, and are thus quintessential to almost any historical survey.

>>9508108
>Impressionism and Monet are now considered the basis for all of modern and contemporary art
this is not true

>>9508108
I think you're overstating the influence of painting. To understand contemporary art means to understand postmodernism, which means to understand modernism, but you don't need to understand the origins of modernism to understand the contemporary, since they're too far removed. You only need to know about the treatment of the singular, transcendental modernist art object which really starts with Cezanne and the response to impressionism to create something more substantial and lasting. I mean you can find precedents to modernist art all throughout art history (Realism to Nouveau Realisme, Baudrillard's writing about the modern artist, etc.), but that is not really introductory even if it is helpful in the long-term. That Anon's list starts with the NY school because it is the most relevant to postmodern concerns of art through three-dimensional object to the cube to the gallery and the system; looking at contemporary art by the transition period to the contemporary. Prior history of painting is summed up in how the modernists approached it, or 'concluded' it. I think Surrealism is also extremely relevant to both modernism and postmodernism but that's worth going into later.

>>9508171
>worth going into later
Hm I guess you're right.

>>9507315
>Postmodernism is objectively terrible garbage for pseuds and tryhards. Prove me wrong.
yes, and this thread proves OP right

>>9508271
Pomo brainlets can't even into their own brand of literature (just the stupid meaningless art), pomoists btfo decisively.

>>9508271
>>9508281
Quality postmodern replies.

bump so OP can get btfo even more

>>9508932
More like so that postmodernism can get btfo more.

All the people defending postmodernism clearly don't know what they're talking about and are obviously pseuds.

>>9507350
>Where is postmodernism's Ulysses?

Finnegans Wake

>>9509746
No, not really. Joyce is a modernist and this is primarily a modernist work.

>>9507927
Picasso is not a contemporary artist

>>9509755
How?

>>9507688

looks bad anon

>>9507315
Saying postmodernism is garbage is postmodernism in itself. Enjoy ur day.

>>9507315
4chan is the most postmodern thing around tbqh. Much more so than various contemporary arts and ideological perversions and whatever.

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>>9507315

>>9507864
Look at this, >>9507598
It's not good. It was probably just a filler comic because Watterson couldn't come up with anything besides this low-hanging shit.

>>9507969

>literature is bad because it gets pharmacology wrong

protip: you also can't get that addicted to marijuana

>>9507323
>Ignore conventions, traditions and culture
>See no point in any of them
>Make the swan song of Western Civilization into a wet fart, call it art
I am considering the plausibility of the claim of a large scale demonic possession.

>>9509939
Drugs inform the vast majority of IJ's narrative. If DFW, who spent his entire career failing at being a polymath, is going to be a pseud and be completely misinformed on something he didn't study academically, it sets the tone for the genre, and pomo readers everywhere. And that's the problem with pomo literature. Big ambitions, low talent.

>>9507315
Not an argument.

>>9507350
>what is postmodernism's Ulysses
Gravity's Rainbow.

>>9510192
This is a legitimate claim.

I respond by saying that Ulysses has more content, more influence, and is more commonly viewed as the novel of the 20th century.

>>9507315
I can't believe this is getting serious replies what's wrong with you all?

>>9507969
DFW isn't pomo, though. He was trying to move away from Postmodern ideas that he saw was becoming more present in society. He saw that Postmodernism was leading to nihilism and oscillation and wanted to bring feeling and humanity back into art.

>>9510202
>more content, more influence
While I can't quite argue about "more content" as I feel like that is quite a subjective claim, "more influence" is unfair as Ulysses has been around longer (not to mention that influence doesn't entirely denote quality).

>>9510232
>i am going to be post pomo and save literature lol haha
>better write over a thousand pages of tedious trash that does nothing to fix things lmao haha

>>9510239
Invalid. Goethe is less influential in our time than Joyce and he's about as removed from Joyce's time as Pine is to Joyce. You concern with the meaning of influence is fair, but here, the influence does derive from quality. I will admit that some parts of Ulysses are boring to read, but overall it's by far a more inspiring work than GR.

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>>9507315
Modernism is objectively terrible garbage for pseuds and tryhards. Prove me wrong.

joseph mcelroy. that was easy.

>>9510283
Books are objectively terrible garbage for pseuds and tryhards. Prove me wrong.

>>9510303
see
>>9510276

>>9510261
Being around longer leaves more possibility of being influential as more recent books may not have time to spread its influence yet. And my point was less that Ulysses is bad despite its influence and more that a book that's really influential and one that isn't very influential doesn't mean that the more influential novel is the better novel.

>>9507422
IJ critiques postmodernism

>>9510554
Ulysses was more influential than GR within 40 years than GR has been within its first 40 years. Stop backtracking pussy.

>>9510554
>a book that's really influential and one that isn't very influential doesn't mean that the more influential novel is the better novel.

Gee no shit? That goes without saying. Read more before you post platitudes like this again.

>>9510607
Well, if that's the case, why did you use it as a reason for why it's the better novel? I could've just called you an idiot instead of trying to calmly respond, but apparently you need a reason to stroke your ego on a board where people spend more time talking about reading than they do actually reading. Nice one, dumbass.

>>9510771
>can't into reading comprehension
>misinterprets a vaguely worded premise

lmao supreme pleb

>>9510601
Perhaps that has something to do with the fact that literature was still a popular and active art 40 years after Ulysses whereas 40 years after GR, it's all but faded into a niche, and even then the medium has become over-saturated with vapid, quickly-consumed garbage aimed specifically to kill time and help convince young people that they're part of a counter-culture.

>>9510778
>Ulysses has more content, more influence, and is more commonly viewed as the novel of the 20th century.

You state, with total clarity, that it has more influence as a reponse to my claim that Gravity's Rainbow is the Postmodern equivalent. The context of your response is in thread debating whether Modernism is better than Postmodernism. Going off of this, it is safe to assume that you are using your point concerning influence as a reason for why Ulysses is a better novel. My point is that influence is irrelevant when discussing which of two novels is of a higher quality. Stop falling back on /lit/ memes to make yourself look less like an idiot.

>>9510784
>the medium has become over-saturated with vapid, quickly-consumed garbage aimed specifically to kill time and help convince young people that they're part of a counter-culture.

Yes, like Gravity's Rainbow. Most people I've met who have read GR are usually dumb as bricks and use GR as a badge to make them feel smart about themselves. (The thing is, I actually like GR, certainly more than DeLillo, DFW, or Mcelroy.)
>>9510804
Perhaps the influence followed from the quality of the content, but as long as you misread and waste time typing up paragraphs of gibberish I'm fine with this.

>>9510844
>use GR as a badge to make them feel smart about themselves.

I feel this way too, they're an unlikable lot and their claim as fans is an insult to Pynchon.

You all are autists. Why don't we make neoclassicism great again instead of trying those futuristic shits, for Kek's sake.

what is postmodernism? :P

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Does Postmodernism necessitate the justification of pedophilia or other horrific crimes?

For example, could a Postmodernist justify the actions Jeffrey Dahmer committed, or just be personally disgusted by them and not advocate criminal justice against him?