What book had the most influence on the way you see the world?

>>9485135
the bible
>if i be a good person i'll die and go to this magic place called heaven
sounded based

>>9485135
Just out of curiosity how did this change the way you see the world, Anon? What I took from this was that although intelligence is at least partly heritable, it still doesn't make sense to treat anyone in a given manner, inductively based on their skin color, or economic class, because there is as much variation within these subsets as there is between them

>>9485135
The aesthetic brain. It makes me put effort into looking decent.

>>9485135
Origin of species

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.

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>>9485582
good one

Probably Zhuangzi for me

>>9485244
whoa. good point.

>>9485244
Acting based on stereotypes makes sense when you don't have time to get all the information about someone before you have to act, aka the majority of interactions that most people undertake with each other on a day-to-day basis.

Obviously taking a completely rigid stance on believing every stereotype about every group of persons is retarded, but it's equally retarded to assume that the group of young black men running up on you in the middle of the night on the street want to sell you girl scout cookies

Hesiod - Theogony

>>9485244

>Lewontin's fallacy

wew lad i thought this had been debunked enough already

>>9485135
Critique of pure reason, I use it to stabilize a chair that wobbles

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For me its pic related. It put me well on my way to becoming a committed post-marxist

>>9485662
lol
very practical for /lit/

>>9485656
I don't see how I'm applying Lewontin's fallacy. I'm not saying that race is scientifically untenable. What am I missing here

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InShaAllah

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>>9485135

>>9485723
As-salāmu ʿalaykum, comrade.

>>9485135
The Little Price.

>>9485663
Also unironically this. Obviously it's very flawed and the focus on labor is backwards but compared to all the capitalist propaganda I was exposed to before, it was quite eye opening.

>>9485244
>it still doesn't make sense to treat anyone in a given manner, inductively based on their skin color, or economic class
that was one of the books points actually

>>9485775
this is not true. the book specifically said what the anon you replied to wrote.

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>>9485786

>>9485135
First Phaedo, later Thus Spoke Zarathustra.

>>9485858
The sequel "Brown Noise'' was a lot better

BRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP

;)

>>9485851
Have you read the book? What I said isn't exactly at odds with what you said (even though I find it repugnant). The Bell Curve did convince me that intelligence (or G) is heritable, and clearly race is a group in which heritability can occur. The difference is that I can recognize that while the G distributions may be different between races, it doesn't make sense to treat any person from a given set as the average of their set.

>>9485135
One Flew Over the cuckoo's nest

I guess my mother was a bit overbearing.

>>9485990
>it doesn't make sense to treat any person from a given set as the average of their set.
I outlined the exact situation upthread where it makes sense to do just that
>>9485644

>>9485644
>but it's equally retarded to assume that the group of young black men running up on you in the middle of the night on the street want to sell you girl scout cookies
Because a group of young white men doing the same would? Your own example showed how silly racial stereotypes are.

>>9485644
Except the situation you described is one where you have plenty of information to determine how to act without stereotyping.

>>9485663
I actually wasn't all that impressed by the manifesto, but Capital had this effect on me.

>>9486034
depending on the clothing they were wearing and the neighborhood I was in I would stay cool or gtfo.

Pretty much the same as black kids, but i was robbed by niggers in baltimore and have generally experienced more crime at the hands of blacks than any other racial group so there ya go.
>>9486038
not really

>>9486061
>depending on the clothing they were wearing and the neighborhood I was in I would stay cool or gtfo.
See, these are a much better criteria. Although a group of young men running towards you is often questionable, even worse if you're a female.

Obviously negative personal experiences help to enforce stereotypes but the sample is usually too small to take the shit too seriously.

>>9486073
Clothing and neighborhood stereotyping is still stereotyping and makes just as much sense as racial stereotyping.
>sample too small
>13% of population
>50% of murders

>>9486090
There are stereotypes with some basis in reality. Your black doctor isn't going to rob you (beyond the Murican health care costs).

>>9486107
I had a black dentist who tried to remove my wisdom teeth after all my other dentists said they didn't have to come out.

>>9485644
>the majority of interactions that most people undertake with each other on a day-to-day basis.
I don't know about you, but the majority of day-to-day interactions are with my family, my coworkers, and my bartender. None of which involve stereotyping of any sort. Are you really wandering through life lonely and afraid of all the people around you?

All boards will become like /pol/ in the future. The people who actually like what the board is supposed to be about will leave and eventually it'll be only nazis trolling nazis.

>>9486111
I bet there are no people with a white dentist who had the same problem.

>>9486116
You're too new to remember what /lit/ was like before Reddit drove out the original inhabitance, old /lit/ was more like /pol/ than current /lit/.

>>9486130
>old /lit/ was more like /pol/ than current /lit/.
I'm not even sure how people come up with this bullshit. Old /lit/ was an extremely slow board where people mostly talked about popular classic authors/philosophers because they were too poorly read to name anybody else.

>>9486196
Old /lit/ was literally just Catholics arguing about translations of the Bible and Russian novels m8

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>>9486196
Now /lit/ is about """race realism""" and zog

>>9485244
this. everything else is noise here.

>>9485135
>old /lit/ was more like /pol/ than current /lit/.

this is a myth.

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>>9486208

>>9485135
but anon, that book is raysiss!

>>9486130
there are 6 /pol/tier threads on the first two pages. Half of the remaining threads have degenerated into /pol/.
This never used to happen.

posting rand used to get you banned for gods sake. we used to have decent mods

>>9486200
It was never like that either. /lit/ went through several phases (Rand posting, Stirner posting, Antinatalism/natalism debates (largely spawned by thomas ligotti's work), christ posting, a brief period of Stalin posting, DFW posting, marx posting, the formation of "Start with the Greeks" as a meme, etc).

>>9486251
but the bell curve isn't rand tier, nor pol tier.

>>9485135
The Spirit of Medieval Philosophy changed how I viewed the world.

Atheist Delusions changed how I viewed history and the Enlightenment.

>>9486251
>help, my traditional culture has been displaced by dumb and unfriendly immigrants!
How's it feel, cuck?

>>9486251
It's simply a big topic of our time and many people are interested in discussing it. The debates about it on /lit/ usually aren't even so bad except for the people who complain that the discussions are happening in the first place.

I don't enjoy thinly veiled bait threads where OP just alludes to some /pol/ figure and then runs for the hills, but the majority of those are just false flags or pure trolls anyway, they'd be shitting up your board one way or the other.

And last, don't forget that /lit/ was and still is the homeboard for Marxists and they're welcomed here despite it having nothing to do with the board culture either, except for the overlap in being gay, resentful, and lost in academia.

>>9486313
why don't you make more effort to integrate into the native culture instead of trying to enforce your morally skewed world view upon us.

>>9486328
I've noticed a lot of the people complaining don't like actual good conversions between right-wing individuals on /lit/ because it doesn't fit the narrative that conservatives are dumb.

Like that thread they made to bully Rand and a single poster basically destroyed all the misconceptions people had about her until OP deleted the thread.

>>9486342
But Rand is garbage. Please do not associate conservative with Rand ever again.

>>9486342
What does objectivism intrinsically have to do with conservatism? Genuinely asking

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>>9486342
dat right-wing confirmation bias

>>9486355
Blame all the conservatives who flock around her bullshit and fund Randian think tanks.

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>>9486355
>>9486359
I'm sorry, I don't know, that's just the first recent example that popped into my head.

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>>9485135
This now, thought it was unironically Onani Master Kurosawa in my youth

>>9486114
Some of us have jobs

>>9485656
Nope.

>>9486337
Why doesn't left wing politics stop injecting itself into every major cultural media.
Blame gamergate etc

>>9485244
Its 80% inheritable by age 21.

Saying you shouldn't treat groups based on their average IQ (or testosterone) is like saying we should teach down syndrome kids like intellectually gifted kids

>>9486418
With down syndrome kids we know where we stand. The black guy in front of you could be some sub 100IQ idiot or clearly above you. Knowing that there are more black guys who are the former doesn't help you accessing the individual in any way.

>>9486361
What does it say about your bias that without any body of data whatsoever you're completely certain to rule something out based on nothing but the word "right-wing" triggering your need to respond?

>>9486342
Maybe, at least I've never met a leftist on here who was actually interested in a debate instead of a circle-jerk.

>>9486359
I won't go into detail but just think about how well Rand's philosophy mixes with "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs". She was not exactly a fan of forced social ownership.

>>9486453
>Even if someone has said 99 stupid things in a row, you should give him a chance because the 100th might be smart
Or longer, because that analogy isn't perfect:
You're already treating everyone according to what you assume about them - for example, you treat everyone around you as probably falling into the 60-150 IQ range. You don't treat everyone according to their maximum potential. If you come across someone with an IQ of 180 or a highfunctioning autist with no regard for social norms, you are surprised. You didn't plan for it.

So it's all about HOW LIKELY it really is to meet an intelligent black man. And I won't pass judgment there and agree with him or you, it's just about the logic behind it.

>>9486418
The average weight of Americans is 194.7 lb. Does it make sense to think every American will have that weight?

>>9486486
It's probably a good fact to keep in mind if you're writing policy around a sugar tax, if you understand.

>>9486483
>HOW LIKELY it really is to meet an intelligent black man
Very, very unlikely but meeting an intelligent person of any color is very unlikely if we focus on their IQ as qualifier for intelligent. Walking around and treating people as potential idiots isn't going to help you much. Also the environment where you meet the person is a much better indicator and still pretty flawed.

As for the analogy, it's very, very flawed. A more fitting one would be "some person who identifies as alt-right/SJW and you already discarding everything they might say simply because they are part of a retarded group instead of focusing on what they say."

>>9486505
Like I said, I don't really have a horse in this race but I'll repeat: Everyone acts based on assumptions and if your brain gets new info "people from group x are on average not too intelligent", this will naturally go into your decision making. Now his position is "so I treat all of them as stupid" which is a dishonest exaggeration and your position is "I am able to complete disregard this new evidence and will treat everyone as if they are the exception", which is just as dishonest. Your brain has already factored in that information.

Of course you're giving everyone a chance and that's the right thing to do, but you have lowered your average expectation.

>>9486418
But the distance between the means isn't as stark as your example of the general population and those afflicted with Downs Syndrome.

Imagine two normal distributions, where the mean has been shifted by 5 points (i.e. Black mean intelligence - 95, White mean intelligence - 100, this was roughly the results presented in TBCurve). Though there is a disparity it isn't statistically significant enough to do anything more than adumbrate (/reinforce) the fact that IQ (G) is heritable. You can't use The Bell Curve as a means to justify racism. As I said earlier there is more variation within each distribution that there is between them.

>>9485858
can you explain why? I read it and while I liked it I didn't feel anything profound

>>9486376
would schopenhauer enjoy onani master?

>>9486541
I'm not him but a) you're justifying racism towards black people from certain African countries where the average IQ is allegedly as low as 65, and b) if racism means believing one race superior to another, then it would seem a lower average IQ could indeed justify that belief, which is why I assume the book triggered such an outcry.

I don't agree with the other poster and I think culture is far more important than IQ but you guys criticizing him are running into quite some follow-up trouble.

>>9486483
>IQ
When are we going to learn what IQ is and it's limitations/near uselessness, /lit/?

>>9486578
>near uselessness
Only the single best predictor for major scenarios spanning life expectancy, marriage health, career success, hiring decisions and so on and so on.

I don't even value IQ too much but you're still an idiot.

>>9486578
Why are you acting like IQ is a static tool that hasn't changed since its introduction?

>>9486547
I actually uploaded the wrong picture but its a good book so I didn't care. I meant to upload this. 'The depressed person' made me feel less sorry for myself and made me a less selfish person.

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>>9486629
>>9486547
fuck i did it again

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>>9485135
Apology, Plato

My father left me pic related. The book is leather bound, with gold leaf edges and marbled paper inside the cover. I never scribbled crayon into it, or drew in the margins. I knew it was special. When I was about eight years old I got most of the way through Apology.

I didn't totally understand it, but I felt the tone of the work and knew Socrates did not deserve to die. It was the first time I recognized that, whatever vague concept of government I had at the time, we (the people and state) existed in a system that was incapable of stopping injustice.

I grew up very sad. Mostly because I didn't have a dad, but also because the cold reality of unchanging human nature was revealed early.

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>>9485135
Probably this given I read it as a freshman in high school and it started my journey into reading religion, philosophy, politics, etc. I probably wouldn't be Christian if it wasn't for this book, though it was not the book that changed my mind.

>>9485144
I want to read the bible due to the influence it has had on the world in general but the damn thing is so long and incoherent I don't know if I could manage to

>>9485644
Lyn himself said not to treat people according to stereotypes and focus on the value of the individuals. He is a big fan of Obama.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOnQPXuU81Q

>>9485244
>many dogs will bite you but some won't, therefore it still doesn't make sense not to pet a random cute doggo

>>9486679
I recommend reading some kind of annotated version. Many parts of it go from straight irritating and nonsensical to deeply enlightening. Of course it's still long, people like to list their ancestors and it's incoherent because it contains the writings and myths of millions of people, but yeah.

>>9486688
He has to say that because he wants to maintain what's left of his academic career. Secretly he's an NRxer who argues about IQ shredders on Nick Land's blog and has written several MPC treatises on why he refuses on principle to date Asian women even though it's extremely difficult for him to make it with whites

>>9486564
Have you read the book? Most of the book is talking about the importance social/economic class with regards to IQ (G), and the causal link

>>9486111
Is this the white genocide I've been hearing so much about

>>9486689
Except this is what you're saying

>dogs bite 100 people a year
>cats bite 97 people a year
>on average dogs are more dangerous than cats
>you should NEVER pet a cat

>>9486679
You don't have to read most of the New Testament If you aren't into synoptic theology, skip Mark and Luke, read Matthew, John and Revelation and Enoch.

>>9486743
not really
what I'm saying is a a low iq individual is more likely to cause you harm. you should be aware of this is all I'm saying, but i think that makes me the next hitler

>>9485135
I really can't say, but I just ordered The Bell Curve and am excited to read it.

>>9486369
Socially conscious neoliberalism is not left wing at all, try studying something outside of Memeneux videos sometime.

wasn't that book basically debunked?
also, isn't the "multiple intelligence" theory way more mainstream nowadays?

>>9486469
>Collectivistic conservatism is not a thing
Americans truly are a blight on the Earth

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Pretty much made lead me to the path of complex systems thinking

Candide, maybe Vonnegut's Bluebeard as well, really.

>>9486773
>isn't the "multiple intelligence" theory way more mainstream nowadays?
No.

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>>9486773
>wasn't that book basically debunked?
Sure, by a guy who didn't believe in natural selection, considered all human biologists eugenicists and psychologists fascists.

>>9486453
Yeah you completely missed the point of average. Plus there is black biology which extends past simply IQ, although that's a factor.
>>9486486
It would if we're making a point about fat ppl in America. Nobody is saying everyone is equal, quite the opposite. But black majority populations in every place in the world is violent, destructive, backwards and crime-ridden if not cronyistic. Try and prove me wrong. >>9486541

https://www.dailystormer.com/helmuth-nyborg-and-stefan-molyneux-race-genetics-and-intelligence/

>>9486703
>He has to say that because he wants to maintain what's left of his academic career
So "MUH PC CULTURE/JEWS" ensure that he has to say nice things about Obama but it won't just straight up assassinate him for his previous work?

>>9486564
Is culture a better predictor than race? Well first we should examine cultures intra racially.
Long story short, they are similar by race even if they're strewn across different continents. In all black majority populations they are crime ridden and everything that implies. This is all black majority populations across time as well. Culture is a product of man. If you want good statistics on race look at the last ten k years we grew in isolation. The exact same thing we expect would happen did happen

>>9486629
interesting. That seems similar to my reaction to the Bell Jar. I thought at the time that I was starting to go down into some sort of depression and the book made me want to be less of a bitch

>>9486880
Lol. I cant believe people believe this. It's so absurd.

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>>9485135
Geneaology of Morals by Nietzsche, when I was 16 (I know, it's very stereotypical).

Still, it did not turn me into a edgelord, like I've seen it happen countless times on the internet. I just picked up the serenity that was behind Nietzsche's irony and anger. It was my first lesson of skepticism, but it was a skepticism with a smile on your face.
It also made me consider actively my morals and the morals of the people who surrounded me, approaching them with my empathy and by putting myself in other people's shoes costantly.

>>9485244
Sam Harris, is that you?

>>9486949
>ben stiller shitposts on cuck chan

>>9485244
>Lewontin's fallacy: the post

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>>9485135

>>9485654
Why though?

>>9486196

I've been here since 2011. The Bell Curve has always been a popular subject for threads because it's pretty much guaranteed to start a shitstorm. AFAIK only one of its chapters is on race, but that's what made it (in)famous.

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>>9487197

You are such a faggot for liking that shit of a book.

>>9485723

if reza aslan influenced the way you see the world you are a brainlet who belongs on /b/

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>>9485244
>it still doesn't make sense to treat anyone in a given manner

This is such an ignorant and short sighted view.
You're talking as if the presence of negroes in a society is a given, like fucking nitrogen in the air.
One of the hottest political topics of the day is whether we should accept more of these people or not.

>>9487788
its too late
you morons fed the animals with your ridiculous commie tier socialism

>>9486949
>implying Sam Harris isn't redpilled on race https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1YfEoxU82us

>>9487652
You are a retard for taking that shit of a bait.

>>9487788
>let people die
>not let people die
I must be a hard decision if you're an 8 year old edge lord for sure.

>>9487993
Sam Harris knows what's up, but he said the same thing as that guy ("let's judge every individual separately").
However, you have to take that statement in context:
1. He lives in the US, where blacks lived for centuries.
2. He's a mainstream author and he doesn't want to alienate his audience by saying something too controversial.

>>9488016
I know you're probably baiting, but anyway: the best way to not let those Africans die at the sea is to tell them they shouldn't try to come to Europe in the first place, instead of inviting them and promising that they'll be rescued if they try.

Besides, the West literally cannot accept billions of poor 3rd worlders. Watch this for an illustration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSKNvvhKazM
The real humane solution would be to help those people in their homelands.

>>9486679
I've downloaded a decent ebook copy of it and read tiny amounts of it every day when taking a shit.

>>9488016
So do you actually cry over every capsized blowup raft carrying 200 people, or do just sanctimoniously tell us why we should give a shit about these people or the backwards shitholes they're fleeing just so they come to an actual civilization and drag its citizens down supporting them?

>>9488016

Were they actually in physical danger? Or were they just hoping for a higher standard of living?

Even if they were in danger you haven't established why we have a duty to help these people, or why we should put our own welfare at risk by accepting them into our countries.

I know everything seems so clear cut and obvious when you're a liberal, but try to see things from our perspective.

>>9488031
>is to tell them they shouldn't try to come to Europe in the first place
"Hey, guys, your lives might be shitty with no chance to improve anytime soon but don't come here, it's a bad idea. Your might die anyway as you would in your homelands or you might reach the paradise in which others been living for half a century ... just why bother taking the chance. Better just die where you are."

The vid talks about the global problem which is not something any individual takes into consideration when his personal situation is fucked. It's the equivalent of your boss telling you to tighten the belt after cutting your pay and then going on a vocation with his bonus while you're stuck with the dilemma which kid to feed.

>The real humane solution would be to help those people in their homelands.
Obviously, just there is no willingness to do it outside of couple charities, with development aid being used to push certain politics and our own policies and economics further messing up the situation. It's an ideal longterm solution that deserves further attention once automation moves our thinking from ME ME ME (which just like immigration, is perfectly natural).

>>9488055
>Were they actually in physical danger? Or were they just hoping for a higher standard of living?
Given the living standards in the countries they are from, it's pretty close to physical danger in any scenario.

>why we have a duty to help these people
I don't know, human rights (aka. the most defining value of the West)? Basic decency? Why do we have a duty to help the people in need in our country? Does lucking out to be born over a line drawn couple of centuries ago make someone more deserving?

>but try to see things from our perspective
The "I am scared of brown people" one? Lack of resources seems like the only sensible one just hardly the case in any first world country at least with the current numbers of refugees. (Sure, some like Murica even fail dealing with their own needy people but that's due shitty politics, not resources ... and bigger numbers in need might actually speed up the change)

>>9488055
So you would not help if depended only on your command?
You should try to see things from the perspective of people who feel empathy.

>>9488031
>The real humane solution would be to help those people in their homelands.
This. Only through an equal opportunity to own the means of production and profit from one's own labors can world poverty be solved. Increasing immigration is just another tactic of neoliberal capitalist rule.
I think it's dangerous to portray policymakers as self-satisfied "elites" taken in by a humanitarian illusion, though, when we can observe the real social role that immigration performs in a class society.

>>9488031
>The real humane solution would be to help those people in their homelands.

I couldn't agree more. I'm not someone who is anti-refugee but it is an empty gesture if you're not doing something to try to resolve the problem that is creating refugess. It's like taking morphine for a gunshot wound.

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read this when i was 18. riveting stuff back then, i still feel the profound effects it had on me

>>9488031
they still practice slash and burn, while trillions of foreign aid was poored into their shithole, why the fuck should I give a single penny to aid if they cant be bothered to teach the niggers how to not starve to death

>>9488105
Same here. 16 for me.

I only just read Animal Farm about three years ago (I'd have been 21) and I enjoyed it, too. It's blunt but effective. I'm sure they'll ban it in schools soon.

>>9488110
>throws money at a dictator so he can buy our weapons to oppress the people or at a militant group because the dictator doesn't like us
>complains about niggers being in the same shitty situation
Take a look what consists of foreign aid and what countries get the most. Specially US of A is a pure joke, giving 3 fucking billion to Israel officially.

>>9488146
teaching people how to farm isnt expensive

>>9488151
It's not like they been farming their entire lives or anything. Why do you have such a need to comment on a topic you clearly have no idea about nor even care enough to do a little research? Just stick to DFW shitposting or something.

>>9488157
>niggers cant be bothered to get fertilizer
>just give us money to pocket 80% and dump food into the area goyim, we know better
>price of food bottoms out
>people just live off and sell the aid food below local market value killing off what little drive the niggers had to work their low yield slash and burn fields

>>9488166
Again, the problem isn't farming per se and most of direct food aid goes for emergencies, then a huge chunk to countries in sub-Saharan Africa, so not like there is much competition.

I'd like to see these guys who talk like everything is so easy being thrown in Africa with no money and having to find a way to survive, if they could do it.

>>9488110
>>9488146
>>9488151
>>9488157
>>9488166
Foreign aid is a means of promoting foreign policy objectives. It's not charity.
A government can become more stable if they use it for humanitarian projects (creating a dependency on aid and reinforcing a sympathetic regime) or they can enrich themselves and cronies by malappropriating it (again, creating a personal incentive to defer to western foreign policy goals, and a dependence of the local economy on it.)

>>9488196
all the more reason not to support giving aid

>>9488214
Well, yeah. I wasn't trying to defend it. But at the same time, rolling back or eliminating foreign aid won't solve social ills unless we address their root causes. >>9488084

Why am I getting connection errors ITT?

>Hey, guys, your lives might be shitty with no chance to improve anytime soon but don't come here, it's a bad idea.
Exactly. If we're talking from the standpoint of safety, crossing the sea with a shitty boat is a bad idea and it's more compassionate to prevent deaths than to invite Africans to embark on a risky journey.

Also, if you look at the pictures of typical African immigrants, they're healthy young males. We're not talking about kids who are starving to death, but about economic migrants who simply want a comfier life.
Africa has tons of resources, the huge population growth is proof of that. It's physically impossible to reproduce at this rate if you're starving to death.


But most importantly, Europeans should decide who to allow in their countries.
If (!) they decide that for whatever reason they want more African immigrants, a safer transport should be arranged.
If not, the borders should be closed.

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>>9488294
was a reply to >>9488081
for some reason I can't reply directly.

Also pic related for the population growth.

>>9488296
Link to the rest of this study if possible?
Population growth does tend to slow down in most areas so I'd like to know why this study believes that won't happen in Africa.

>>9488294
There are many variations of horrible lives and starving to death is basically the biggest extreme. If it was that bad, you indeed don't have the energy to procreate or even move. The fact that they are willing to leave everything behind and risk a dangerous journey tells you all you need to know about their desperation. How many Americans who lead relatively shitty lives would take a much less risky journey to Sweden to get a much comfier life with free neetbucks?

Though the "healthy young males" perception is somewhat skewed, there are many variations and quite a few kids (who then have to prove that they are kids). Besides, they try to get more vulnerable members of their families afterwards who wouldn't be able to handle the journey (which is ironically often used against them) Pictures are a pretty silly source for it. Two different people can run around and shoot pictures of any country and display it in completely different light.

>Africa has tons of resources
Which isn't much of use for the majority of the population. Russia is a similar but less extreme example of a technically rich country with the majority living in shitty conditions. In the end it's definitely a much bigger issue but not something that will get fixed anytime soon. As for the rising population, it's often the case in shitty environments that aren't shitty enough to kill off the people as fast as they breed. We in the West had it too before the world wars.

>Europeans should decide who to allow in their countries. If (!) they decide that for whatever reason they want more African immigrants, a safer transport should be arranged.If not, the borders should be closed.
That's a pretty sensible viewpoint, not overly humane but hard to argue against on the logical level. Then again, going by the recent elections, while there is rising discontent, the majority is still in favor of helping migrants.

>>9488311
Population growth slows down when the economical conditions make smaller families viable. Plus obviously all the factors like education, religion and cultural perception about birth control and abortion. Doubt any study like that exists due all the variables or could be anything more than speculation.

>>9488296
Got connection error when I included sources. Did you have any links too?

pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/05/10/eu-unaccompanied-minors/
ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Migration_and_migrant_population_statistics

>>9488311
>>9488365
The U.N. stuff is here
https://esa.un.org/unpd/wpp/Publications/

>>9488081
>hell yeah, come here to paradise, where you will end up inevitably at the rock bottom of society due to your lack of proper IQ, work ethic, language skills and culture, while also exposing yourself to extreme inequality that you will have to face day by day watching all the wealthier people living around you without any chance to climb up the social hierarchy that is going to pave your way into crime and/or if you're susceptible to religious fanatism, terrorism, I THINK THIS IS A GOOD IDEA

>>9488360
So these kinds of trends are only likely assuming there is minimal cultural change in Africa and to a lesser degree everywhere else?

>>9488370
Thanks anon

>>9488402
Compared to rock bottom in Sweden, middle class in Somalia look like bums. No idea about you, but I'd rather watch rich people when I have guaranteed basic necessaries and won't get shot by some warlord or bombed by a drone. Besides, even if we take your meming serious, this still leaves opportunities for their kids. Where would you rather raise yours?

>>9488403
>So these kinds of trends are only likely assuming there is minimal cultural change in Africa and to a lesser degree everywhere else?
Well, they can't do much else but taking trends and making predictions based on these. One regime change could easy improve A LOT, or make things much worse. Plus the actions of other countries (Just look at Afghanistan before all the invasions) and environmental changes. Climate change alone could make the current immigration look cute.

>>9488081
What if I don't give a fuck about races, nations and religions other than mine? What if I don't fell any compassion towards these people? Why should I share my resources with them? They aren't my family, my nation or religion. They are even openly hostile towards me. Their religion teaches them I am a kuffar and all kinds of violence is justifyed against me. They deny the empathy for me, the same empathy you are arguing for and demand that I should feel towards them. If empathy is not mutual, why should I care if they die or not? Why should I care if their human rights are violated when they wouldn't care if mine were violated? I don't give a fuck about them. If you do, you should be personally forced to take care of them and accept financial responsibility for them, also you should live amongst them, they yhould be put in your house to live, but you should stay away from my vallet and my security.

That would be at least fair. Liberals, and only liberals should be held financially responsible for refugees if they want them in.

>>9488429
Another anon named a pretty simple solution for it. Democracy. Why would you or me have any more say in this than the other?

>you should be personally forced to take care of them and accept financial responsibility for them, also you should live amongst them, they yhould be put in your house to live, but you should stay away from my vallet and my security.
Jesus, are you 12? So if you care about the sick and the old, you should automatically become a doctor and build a hospital in your house? Wait, what if you also care about the mentally ill, should you also become a psychologist? Some people die in fires too, better buy a firetruck. Perhaps you even care about kids and education, time to become a teacher? Do you care about virgins? Well, time to sell your ass. What do you do to help "your" race/nation/religion?

>>9488427
So are you ok with their kids burning down your car, raping, robbing and commiting terrorist acts against your kids and family in their social frustration because of ending up in the Swedish underclass with no chance to move up?

>>9488427
I get that. I suppose making 90 years worth of population predictions if it's such a changeable field seems a bit pointless.

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>>9488360
>not overly humane
That depends on how you look at it and who you focus on and ultimately on the definition of that word.
It's quite possible that African immigrants would:
1. Economically worsen the West, thus reduce the support for Africa -> human suffering.
2. Directly worsen the quality of people in the West -> human suffering (white people are humans too).

>the majority is still in favor of helping migrants
People are easily manipulated with pic related and the usual anti-racist propaganda (Hitler, Nazis...). They think they're being charitable by accepting migrants, but they're really just taking the most capable/ambitious/lucky part of the population (young males), while leaving the rest to rot.

Let's be real, pretty much nobody gives a shit about what happens to some strangers they never saw on the other side of the world. That is, until you make some close up shots with the camera and add some sad piano music...
People don't care until it affects them personally or on some emotional level. They will support immigration until their new neighbor will rob them or rape their kid. But by then it will be too late to reverse the trend.

>>9488453
Are you fucking retarded? What is that have to do anything? I don't want to live with the possible terrible consequences of your decision admitting refugees in our common country. I want you to suffer all the bad consequences of your stupid decision.
I help my race/nation/religion by paying taxes, I'm ok with redistributing my resources as long as they give it to people I feel mutual empathy towards. However I'm not ok with redistribution of my taxes to people that will most likely leech on me, putting a burden on my society which is best case scenario, worst case is they will actively harm my country's people by commiting crimes and terrorism.

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>>9488478
>crimes and terrorism.

tfw most terrorism is by domestics

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>>9485135

>>9488360
Jesus, how brainwashed can you get. Every single of your points has been proven wrong and yet you don't just believe the official narrative, you happily defend it for them online.

>Though the "healthy young males" perception is somewhat skewed
Not even politicians deny this

>who then have to prove that they are kids
Yeah and look at the numbers from the countries who actually do that - more than 50% of them turn out to be adults who have been lying. I assume in the countries who don't even do the tests, it's only more. Also 15-17 year olds are not little kids.

>The fact that they are willing to leave everything behind
They are the young males of their families who hear how much money others who went to Europe can send back home and pressure their sons into doing the same thing. It's not starving people, the ride costs up to 10.000. It's just a simple investment: Pay the initial cost, then have them send home 300/month (+anything from drug trade etc.)
You're beyond stupid if you think any of those people arriving at the train stations are starving. Go have a fucking look at them. Every single one of them has a more expensive phone than me.

>>9486052
I agree. The Manifesto is a meme that only should be read out of historical curiosity. Capital really gets the old mental juices flowing though.

>>9488459
Well, lucky locals never do that ... oh, right. Sounds like dealing with social frustration might actually help more.

>>9488465
To get to 1. and 2. you'd need to add crazy numbers every year, 1% (and that was a huge exception) of poorfags are pretty irrelevant for that.

>People are easily manipulated with pic related and the usual anti-racist propaganda (Hitler, Nazis...).
People are easy manipulated by any kind of propaganda and it's not like anti migrant propaganda machine is resting. Just look at Le Pen who didn't have a single sane proposal and still got 10mio of people with "brown people out".

>Let's be real, pretty much nobody gives a shit about what happens to some strangers they never saw on the other side of the world.
That's a bit too simplistic. Yeah, we don't wake up worrying how Ling Ling who makes our shit Mohamed who is bombed by drones are doing but pretty much every adult non sociopath cares about the suffering of other humans, hence often try to block it out as much as they can and hence sad piano music is a suboptimal approach and often makes them angry.

>They will support immigration until their new neighbor will rob them or rape their kid. But by then it will be too late to reverse the trend.
Look how cities with fuckloads immigrants vote, be it London or Paris. Usually the anti migrant stuff comes from the country.

>>9488478
And I don't want to share a country with idiots like you, since it's still a great country, moving is a bit too excessive and you probably won't fuck off somewhere without refugees either. Hence we have to deal with our expectations and wishes like adults at the ballot box.

>>9488504
>I think that's false
>I disregard all the data on it
>Here, I proved your entire book wrong haha

>>9488514
>data

lol

>>9488507
[citation needed]

>>9486591
>Only the single best predictor for major scenarios spanning life expectancy, marriage health, career success, hiring decisions and so on and so on.

Source? Every one I've ever known who's studied psychology who I've asked about IQ has basically said it's incredibly limited and basically outdated and debunked and only taken seriously in the US (which is, also one of the only Western countries that still takes psychoanalysis seriously as a therapeutic method)

>>9486757
>what I'm saying is a a low iq individual is more likely to cause you harm

This isn't true. Being violent has little to do with IQ. I don't really understand why you would think it would.

>>9488526
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/9755929/IQ-tests-do-not-reflect-intelligence.html
There is definitely a study calling it a meme.

>which is, also one of the only Western countries that still takes psychoanalysis seriously as a therapeutic method
Kek, seriously?

>>9488536
>"IQ tests do not reflect intelligence!"
>"But 3 different IQ tests together do though!"

Absolutely retarded.

>>9488512
>To get to 1. and 2. you'd need to add crazy numbers every year
Nope. We're actually way past that already. For example, there are women in the West who are scared of walking alone in the cities thanks almost exclusively to African and Middle Eastern immigrants.
That's reduction in the quality of life.

>Look how cities with fuckloads immigrants vote, be it London or Paris.
Those cities have so many voting immigrants that they're themselves determining the vote.
But sure enough, there are also some Europeans who like living close to immigrants, stay/move to those cities and don't mind paying the price of higher street crime, terrorism and reduced liberties. Not as many as you'd guess from the elections or mainstream politics in general, though. Most pro-immigrants have never had to deal with them and are ignorant of their properties. Europe, for the most part, has been until recently very homogeneous. It has not yet had the time to reach critical masses of Africans that would turn into cities like Detroit, for example. But you can get a taste of it in some parts of London or Paris...

>>9488544
intelligence test =/= IQ test

>>9488553
There's literally no difference moron. Any test that has a graded level of problems that the person has to solve is an IQ test.

>>9488531
To my understanding it is universally accepted that people who go to jail have a lower IQ and also that in absence of a higher IQ you also lack certain conflict resolution skills which leads to a higher probability of using violence instead.

I'm no expert but both of those make sense to me.

>>9488526
I'm also no expert on that but these things are very much a matter of trends and any kind of "your worth can be objectively measured" science is under a huge attack right now. If it was Russia doing away with IQ I'd be more inclined to believe it than if it was Scandinavia, for example.

>>9488512
>To get to 1. and 2. you'd need to add crazy numbers every year, 1% (and that was a huge exception) of poorfags are pretty irrelevant for that.
I can only urge you to look at the German numbers. It works for now because of how much money the government is saving due to capital flight into Germany so they can redirect a lot of money into the social systems - but all of them are collapsing.

>Look how cities with fuckloads immigrants vote, be it London or Paris.
In these cities, 70% of the children are already immigrants. The remaining white population is rich enough they don't care about childcare cost doubling and other problems of the "rural idiots".
Not to mention the peer pressure in these cities to "not give in to the right-wing populism" and "just deal with it" if you can't leave your house after dark.

>>9488589
> The remaining white population is rich enough they don't care about childcare cost doubling and other problems of the "rural idiots".

Cities are the first to suffer this shit so why would cities be inclined to ignore rising costs? You're also assuming everybody in major cities are either wealthy or immigrants which is just untrue.

> Not to mention the peer pressure in these cities to "not give in to the right-wing populism" and "just deal with it" if you can't leave your house after dark.

Cities are dangerous and have been dangerous since forever. You can't really blame that on immigrants.

>>9488514
More like
>I don't believe your core assumptions are founded and so can't accept your argument as valid unless you reestablish it on rigorous foundations

>>9488552
>there are women in the West who are scared of walking alone in the cities thanks almost exclusively to African and Middle Eastern immigrants
Thanks to propaganda against them you mean. Statistically rapes went down with the influx of migrants in Germany despite new years eve stuff. Pretty sure it's similar in other countries too.

>so many voting immigrants that they're themselves determining the vote
No they don't. Let's take Paris with 90-10 for Macron. 24% migrants, 10-15% muslims. Hardly "many" or close to enough to affect such a landslide.
Marseille is famous for their amount of Muslims with 20-25%, got 64 - 36. in favor of Macron. Le Pen only did good in villages where people see someone brown on TV.

>Europe, for the most part, has been until recently very homogeneous.
If you only look at whiteness, which never concerned Europeans too much when it came to murdering each others for a millennia.

>It has not yet had the time to reach critical masses of Africans that would turn into cities like Detroit
Are you seriously blaming niggers for US car industry tanking?

>>9488589
>but all of them are collapsing
If that's collapsing, how bad does it look for the rest of the world? The only problem in Germany with social system is the pension and it was broken from the very start. (and is broken in most countries since it relies on outdated ideas ... I think only Norway got it right with a fund) At least migrants can keep it alive till automatisation. Shit like welfare is pretty cheap in comparison.

>Not to mention the peer pressure in these cities to "not give in to the right-wing populism" and "just deal with it" if you can't leave your house after dark.
That's quite the mental gymnastics. People would rather suffer than vote anonymously against all the scary migrants and then claim that they didn't? Or maybe they don't actually have any problems with them... Occams razor and all.

>>9488552
>Detroit

One of the whitest cities in America. Good choice.

>>9488609
>Are you seriously blaming niggers for US car industry tanking?
Which car industry tanked in south Chicago or in many other crime ridden cities?
The fact is that societies with a high % of Africans tend to be shitholes as a rule, whether it's in the US or elsewhere.

>>9488627
You might check that again, buddy. It was 10% white in 2010, it's probably less now.

>>9488151
>teaching people how to farm isnt expensive

Yeah but teaching them not to get kidnapped by a warlord roaming around with his crew in Toyota pickups with AK47s is pretty difficult.

A lot of these people are starving because their region has started yet another tribe war where they quite literally exterminate each other.

It's not like they all just gather in a place where there is barely any water and think "This place is great! We'll just live here from now on". They HAVE TO live in some of these places.

>>9488607
>walking alone at night in all around Tokyo, yokohama, kyoto and have no problems
>try this in chicago
>get mugged and shot

>>9488607
>Cities are the first to suffer this shit so why would cities be inclined to ignore rising costs? You're also assuming everybody in major cities are either wealthy or immigrants which is just untrue.
Good luck living in Paris or London if you're not either rich or use social housing. Don't be an idiot.

>Cities are dangerous and have been dangerous since forever. You can't really blame that on immigrants.
Violent crime in NYC for example is >95% committed by "minorities". Stuff like Cologne didn't ever happen before. And yes, people got groped, harrassed and raped before, too. Now I see it happen in my city every single day whereas I have never seen it before in all those years. But that must be all the propganda, right. Better believe police stats which are shown again and again to be doctored.

>>9488609
>If that's collapsing, how bad does it look for the rest of the world?
You can't read. I explained how they survive on redirected funds. But at some point Germany will have to pay interest on their debt again and then it'll blow up.

>People would rather call a cab at night and "live with terror" than to speak out or vote for the "evil racists" after decades of brainwashing
If you deny this phenomenon exists, you're an idiot. We can debate the size of it but don't act like there are no people who say "Well yeah AfD is right on those issues but I can't vote for a nazi party".

>>9488644
detroit, penssylvania and california
the whole reason that niggers are in cities outside the South was to fill low skill positions in factories that disappeared in the 1950s and 1960s

The Alternative Hypothesis has some interesting sets of articles on race, IQ, and heritability. I'm no expert, but they make an interesting case for racial distinctions and the heritability of IQ.

Freud in general. Made me realize that people are essentially sexually frustrated fucktards that will take every opportunity to mess with you if it makes their dick hard/vagina moist.

>>9488563
>To my understanding it is universally accepted that people who go to jail have a lower IQ and also that in absence of a higher IQ you also lack certain conflict resolution skills which leads to a higher probability of using violence instead.

People who go to jail tend to either be drug addicts, sociopaths (who are often very naturally intelligent even if not scholastically), from abusive families (which has been showed to impair cognitive development but also lead to emotional stunting),

If anything, people with quite high IQs are more prone to being deviant.

does /lit/ feel like this book's/Jensen's/Rushton's conclusions are compatible with the politics of the left? why or why not?

>>9488659
You legitimately believe that most major cities aren't dangerous at night?

>>9488773
major cities are dangerous at night because unhomogenous niggers and spics

>>9488776
you're not serious are you? you think victorian london for example was a safe city at night?

>>9488785
anglos are may as well be niggers

>>9488729
child abuse increases likely hood of drug abuse, lack of empathy and anti social behavior

>>9488790
so what cities do you believe are safe at night other than some in japan.

>>9488835
any without shitskins and low IQ concentrations

>>9488845
> no low IQ concentrations

so no city ever in the existence of human kind? so you're agreeing with me that cities have always been dangerous places?

>>9485135
Trying to put race under a microscoope is pretty ridiculous if you ask me. One doesn't need to read a book to understand blacks for example are predisposed to be dumber and more violent. Just living around them can tell you that.

t. Jew Yorker

>>9488851
you already conceded modern homogeneous asian cities arent

>>9488835
Singapore, Seoul, Zurich, Taipei.

If your a foreigner, nearly every city in China, because criminals get the death penalty for touching you.

>>9488878
>>9488880

apologies, I meant white no white city

>>9488729
>tfw too intelligent to not be incarcerated

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>>9485135
Unironically the ego and its own.

>>9485135
> literally neo-Nazi propaganda
>>>/pol/

>>9488884
Minnesota in Commercial Zones

>>9488880
singapore is not homogenous you drip.

>>9488875
But you can't then tell people that. It's good to have a study to be able to point to, you know, some kind of factual basis for your beliefs.

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>>9485135
Funny, but I wanted to read the book since I was fourteen, and only did it at twenty, and by that point I already knew everything the book could have taught me, it only helped me organise that knowledge — exactly the sentiment expressed in the novel about which books are the best.

>>9488016
Not letting people die is what got us into this mess. There's no reason to value every life. Modernity is a plague.

>>9488909
>There's no reason to value every life.

agreed. kill yourself.

>>9488909
> it's okay for some people to die
> why are you evil pinko commies punching me, what about human riiiiights?

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>>9488910
working on it

>>9488845
You're a retard.

Here in Montreal, we have a very high amount of immigrants, it is an exceptionally safe city. I'm sure you'll call it a meme, but the more important variable would be amount of poverty, not amount of immigrants.

Get real.

>>9488913
I bet a malaysian child died to make your shoes. Where's your concern for them? Faggots like you only concern yourself with whatever the TV tells you, because the TV tells you. Don't flatter yourself by liking your ideals to communism, you're a capitalist whore who has been sold neo-marxist values as a joke.

>>9488918
I'm sure the problem with all those Nordic countries suddenly rife with rapes is their poverty levels.

Being a continent away gives you a huge advantage, it allows more screening. Hell, you probably have the ability to reject most applicants (who are opportunistic males).

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>>9488910
basic compassion without reciprocation is a bit daft

>>9488918
>Montreal
>implying youre actual lucid enough to make judgements

>>9488919
> projection level: /pol/
Unlike you, I actually do take off myself and give to others.
I do find it hilarious that rightists always assume that since they are hypocrites, everyone else must be, too.

>>9488924
> compassion without reciprocation
You know it can be hard to speak with people face to face when they've completely surrounded themselves with straw?

>>9488921
>rife with rapes

stats on this?

>>9488918
It's not so much about immigrants in general, it's more about Africans.
A critical mass of Africans+poverty/social pressure is the lethal combination.

>>9488936
There are enough Africans here in Japan, and they cause no more trouble than other foreigners in general, except for fucking Yanks, who should all be barred entry into the country.

>>9488924
Wew, great argument there against Montreal, I'm sure you can tell me all about how shitty this city is based on your experience living there.

To be honest, you probably are one of these low-IQ people. High-IQ is fairly rare. The fact that you are on 4chan arguing against "muh shitskins" only confirms it.

>>9488930
enjoy your enrichment
https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=349_1368354271

>>9488944
> The fact that you are on 4chan arguing against "muh shitskins" only confirms it.
But being redpilled actually gives you superior intelligence, unlike spending years upon years of your life studying and learning from intelligent people.
>>9488948
This is such a complete non sequitur you shouldn't have bothered at all.

>>9488944
>montreal fag pretends his thoughts are valid to sane human beings

>>9488943
>Japanese society is linguistically and culturally homogeneous,[229] composed of 98.5% ethnic Japanese
And the 1.5% non-Japs are mostly other Asians.

>>9488943
http://www.tokyoreporter.com/2016/02/22/tokyo-cops-arrest-turkish-asylum-seekers-in-gang-rape-of-woman/

>>9488955
And? First, I live in Tokyo; second, even if you only take non-Orientals, that's still hundreds of thousands of people, more than enough to draw conclusions.
If you're going to be moving goalposts until and beyond the horizon, them I'm out, it's midnight already.
>>9488962
Yank soldiers do this all the time. But that doesn't count, does it?

>>9488969
us military are low iq slaves as well

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>>9488969

>>9488969
american soldiers based on Japan acting badly? no, shock horror. it's almost like post-war Japan is hardly studied in the west.

>>9488985
>>9488987
> doesn't count
That's rather predictable.
>>9488986
Ah?

>>9488969
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo#Demographics
Even if Tokyo has 20k blacks, that's still not that much, relatively speaking.

Look, there are genetic reasons why sub-Saharan Africans act the way they do:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoamine_oxidase_A#Warrior_gene
You can read on that or keep believing that we're all the same if that makes you feel better.

>>9489012
> Look, there are genetic reasons
I'm a geneticist, you cunt, so how about you don't teach me my own profession? I swear to fucking god, the next time some clueless idiot starts lecturing me about how the science of genetics exists to confirm his pitifully ignorant, anti-humane view of the world, I'm going to bash his fucking head in with a copy of Mein Kampf.

>>9489004
Army grunts are a group selected for being dumb losers, it's not a good sample of average Americans.

>>9489035
>gets mad
>doesn't address the point raised in the post he got mad at

/persuasive/

>>9489035
>thinks he's smart
>uses buzzwords like 'humane' unironically

>>9489045
> I'm a loser who'd literally get bullied to death in the army, so I'm just going to call them all dumb when they're not around
Uh huh.
>>9489050
1. "Warrior gene" does little other than making people angrier than they would have been otherwise in situations when they'd be angry in any case.
2. You stupid cunt express video game reasoning where everyone possesses the same amount of points to distribute between their stats at character creation, and if someone's attractive, then that necessarily lowers their potential to be athletic or intelligent, and vice versa; the reason you adhere to it is, of course, because you're an ugly, cowardly weakling whose only defence from self-loathing is deluding yourself into believing that you are compensated for your miserable shell by superior intelligence, except that this line of reasoning is about as anti-scientific as it gets, proving you wrong more definitely than any miniscule IQ score ever could. #btfo

>>9485838
No joke if you're able to apply a self-help book that focuses on discipline you'll be better off than anyone. My boss is super successful and has a killer work ethic and is always happy. He told me he read that 7 Habits of Highly Effective People book and applied every word of it and that's how he got that way

>>9489065
nice strawman bro

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>>9489035
>I'm a geneticist

>>9489136
> nazis pretending that they aren't a laughingstock for biologists of all kinds
Any biologist will be happy to disillusion you given the chance, why do you even bother?

>>9489147
>he thinks everyone who realizes he's a moron is a Nazi
dude claiming you're a geneticist on 4chan is the epitome of laughing stock

>>9488504

to be back on topic: I actually loved bully for brontosaurus, read the Origin of Species after that, and the Voyage of the Beagle. It was really fun to see how Darwin's theory developed between Darwin and Gould. Its really cool looking at changes in scientific theories. I really liked how advances in geology completely changed certain portions of it.

>>9489147
you are so full of bullshit it's incredible

>>9488081
Swede here. For me it makes perfect sense for them to want to come here, but personally I don't think the trade-off of making Sweden worse just to be humane is worth it. I'd rather have a great, inhumane (though not really since I'd be in favor of helping people in their home countries with aid etc, which is actually estimated to be about 10x cheaper, given the expensive living costs in Sweden and so on and so forth), than a humane, worse-off Sweden.

In the 2006 BRÅ statistics, before we stopped tracking immigrant crime, they were 5.5x overrepresented in rape cases, and in this statistic European immigrants are included, so we can just guess what the actual number were if, say, Finns (our largest immigrant group) were excluded from this statistic. In Oslo the police chief came out saying that all immigrants in X year had been committed by immigrants (about 106 rapes or so).

I'm not in favor of making Sweden worse off just because people want to virtue signal by letting them into the country. It doesn't make any sense to me, but I don't base it that much on IQ (except for cases with like the warrior gene, where a lower IQ is strongly correlated with crime and higher violent tendencies), but mostly on culture. Inferior cultures have no place in Sweden, I'm fine with taking in children though since they haven't yet been taken in by their inferior culture.

>>9489324
swedish culture is inferior. you even sold out lagom and commodified it in order to produce the most annoying multinationals in the world.

>>9486196
Old /lit/ had an insufferable meme about corn that almost tore the board apart. Dark times.

>>9489381
the swedish people have made lots of cultural contributions
swedish leftism is fucking poison

>>9489387
>corn
actually, this is a common misconception

>>9489388
no they haven't. ikea, nokia, rotting fish, minimalism, flat packs, 2nd rate vodka, etc. these things are not contributions. you're just degenerate lapland subhumans.

>>9489381
I disagree. Capitalism isn't necessarily bad so I don't have any objection against them commodifying whatever it may be.

People here are orderly, you notice certain things when you travel and come back like how people automatically form lines everywhere, to the toilets or w/e. There's a great deal of respect for everyone else and their personal space and to give them equal opportunity. Democracy, equality, politeness to the extreme, service & good business culture, honesty, punctuality, modesty (in terms of wealth etc) among other things are things I really love about Sweden. We're naïve as fuck though and groupthink is highly prevalent here, I'll give you that.

>>9489436
I know you disagree, that's why sweden has sold its culture. it's hard to take nationalists seriously with their chinese made flags.

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>>9489419
>IKEA
great
>Nokia
Finnish (used to be good)
>Minimalism
great
>flat packs, vodka
irrelevant, not a big thing here.

We're top 10 when it comes to inventions/intellectual property etc per capita. We dominate multiple music scenes (metal, house, again per capita since we're a country of 8 mil).

Anyway, this is all secondary and I don't really care since it doesn't affect me directly anyway, I'm a Swedish individual, not the country itself. I care more about the values Swedes tend to hold and how they treat each other.

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>>9489451
>it's hard to take nationalists seriously with their chinese made flags.

>>9489451
>it's hard to take nationalists seriously with their chinese made flags.
Why? I don't classify myself as a nationalist necessarily, I'm all for letting in educated people and so on from other nations. Why would you want your nation to be economically inefficient by producing things other countries can produce cheaper?

>>9489436
people being nice isn't culture you dumbfuck it's to do with economics.

>>9486541
The Black mean is 85 not 95.

Economics in one lesson

>>9489469
there is nothing wrong with it until people start treating culture as this scared object when anybody can go buy as much culture as they want. exceptionalism of all stripes if fucking stupid.

>>9489485
Where's the economic prospect in someone offering to guide me to the place I'm looking for when I'm lost?

>>9489490
>when anybody can go buy as much culture as they want
Sure, I agree. That's "superficial culture" and isn't something I really care that much about. Values would be the "deep" culture and is what I care most about.

>>9489492
You're missing the point retard. Richer people are nicer and poorer people are meaner.

>>9489499
oh, cultural products don't count as culture now. that's progress, I guess. swedish values are not unique to sweden.

>>9489521
Horseshit.

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>>9489526
>le deconstructionist maymay

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>>9489526
They do count, but it's the superficial part of culture, it's secondary.

>swedish values are not unique to sweden.
Yes, a lot of them have crossover with other cultures. Mostly all of them have crossover with the other Nordic nations, which is why I consider them as "brothers" in some way. The more crossover our culture has with another, the less I'm against non-practical immigration (i.e. immigration for other reasons than economical, needing doctors or what have you)

>>9489530
You're an idiot then.

>>9489548
either culture is an idea or an object. if it's an idea then it's subject to change, no amount of migration will stop cultural morphology. if it's an object then it's pretty worthless when anybody can buy it.

no, mostly all of them are found all over the world. it's the same argument I have with Australians over "mateship". like strong social bonds among men is somehow mystically Australian.

>>9489569
>either culture is an idea or an object.
It's both where, with the definition:
>the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society.
objects would fall within the "social behaviour". I.e. consumption patterns and so on, but it's secondary and is especially prone to change, again, I don't really tend to put much weight on this.

>if it's an idea then it's subject to change, no amount of migration will stop cultural morphology
Correct, and this could very well happen. Collective ideas don't tend to change very fast though, and if they do then yeah, the culture has changed. Swedish culture as of 2000 isn't the same as our culture back in the 1900s where we were starving and had a different environment we needed to adapt to. There nevertheless exists many fragments of that older culture which is still impregnated into the minds of Swedes today. I don't deny culture and values change in any case, a lot of the time it's for the better (slavery, accepting homosexuality, getting rid of superstition etc)

>. it's the same argument I have with Australians over "mateship". like strong social bonds among men is somehow mystically Australian.
Sure. But the degrees and intricacies of it could very well vary.

I don't really feel as though we have any major disagreement.

>>9485135
Goodnight Moon. It's the first book I could read by myself. Other than that probably Hamlet for my adult life.

>>9489592
the major disagreement I have with people is that immigration will corrode culture. when it is a highly flexible and porous thing to begin with. I also disagree that culture changes slowly. go ask your parents how much the culture has changed from when they were your age.

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>>9489436
Yeah, being able to queue is nice and all, but isn't Sweden right near the top of the charts in world in anti-depressant usage? Their society sounds anything but functional. Democracy, equality, politeness, etc etc, and the desire to kill yourself.

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>obvious bait thread
>275 / 43 / 89 / 2
/pol has truly won

>>9489617
Maybe you're right, might be something I'll look into more later. If anything has changed Swedish culture though, it's probably the US and its media exports, moreso than any immigration.

>>9489640
That chart doesn't make much sense for implying causation, as Denmark tops the list and is also considered the happiest country in the world by many measures. Sweden also tends to top these lists
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/03/20/travel/worlds-happiest-countries-united-nations-2017/

This probably has more to do with politics and how prone psychologists etc are to recommend anti-depressants as a solution, the welfare state being willing to fund this etc.
Here's another explanation I found
>According to a review of the research on depression in Nordic countries, Iceland's unusually high antidepressant use is "a result of their perceived effectiveness by users, but also an effect of limited access to alternative treatment like psychotherapy." The rising rate of antidepressant usage there, however, has not been tied to any decrease in suicide rate or disability due to depression.
Sort of what I expected. Approximately 5% of people worldwide suffer from depression, which is about the amount you'll find in the Nordic countries as well.

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>>9489640
Also here's a list not only for Europe

>>9489685
Other European states have effective socialized medicine. You don't see those rates in Germany for example.

And of course they're happy, they're on pills designed to make them happy.

>>9489689
As usual America is #1 in everything. Truly an example to the world. And these things cost money there too, just think about that, how fucked a country has to be to beat out the rest of the world at a personal cost.

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>>9489689
ayyyyyyyy

>>9489561
No you
People are nice to people within their own tribe
If you walk around in nice clothes with a fancy camera poor folks will likely react to you with suspicion and maybe hostility, as any person would when someone strange enters their environment.
But if you're not obvious trash or obviously wealthy poor folks are often full of the most wholesome and pure kindness you can find. And to be honest their kindness means more than the kindness of the rich, because kindness for the rich is cheap

What are you even basing this on? charity donations or something stupid like that? I can't see how you have a leg to stand on here

>>9489705
>Other European states have effective socialized medicine. You don't see those rates in Germany for example.
I'm not an expert on this so I don't know all of the factors that go into it, but I know that different countries handle people showing up to their doc with certain problems like depression differently. Germany afaik will usually start by offering other alternatives than mediciation, whereas the UK (and I suppose the US too, seeing as it's #1 on the list and the pharma industry is huge there) will offer medication as the first treatment.

Stigma probably also plays a role, there has been a big push in Sweden at least to remove the stigma from problems such as depression etc, which probably contributes to it.

>And of course they're happy, they're on pills designed to make them happy.
If it works, great.

>>9489689
korea also tops the world in suicide so perhaps they'd benefit from a few more antidepressants

>>9489670
>if i call it bait it means i don't have to engage with the ideas being discussed :^)

>>9489640
>Doctor, I'm not happy that my wife wants Muhammad to fuck her in front of me
>here, take these pills

>>9489724
The US medical industrial complex is fucked, probably one of our biggest problems as a nation
Things have only gotten worse since we legalized direct to consumer advertising

>>9489736
Yeah, it's pretty creepy how that's even a thing, almost, if not worse is the prison industry. Imo it just doesn't make sense to privatize certain things, there shouldn't be a money-making incentive to have people put in jail or be on meds/get ill. I get the need for R&D and so on though, but even then it seems pretty inefficient in the grand scheme of things.

>>9489772
The pendulum will inevitably swing back
we are already seeing a massive upswell of distrust in the medical establishment

of course this is being suppressed by the media who label all of them as insane anti-vaxxers (pro-tip, antivaxxers actually aren't against vaccinations period, or only a tiny minority are, they are against the current regimen of injecting 50+ vaccines all at once and the fact that it is now illegal to sue for damages caused by vaccines, as opposed to the past where one was only vaccinated for things like measles mumps rubella and like polio or something over the course of three injections)

but the media and the medical establishment are making way too much money off of their incestuous relationship for them to allow people to turn to holistic naturopathy, so they take every chance they get to slander those terms until most everyone thinks anyone who buys into that shit is a fucking moonbat hippy idiot, rather than someone who simply doesn't want to get raped by the perverted incentives of the medical industry

>>9488925
Except leftists are the least charitable people.

https://www.rt.com/usa/193952-charity-conservatives-religion-utah/

>>9489835
It's up to the government to fix things, not people.

>>9489725
reminder there's literally nothing wrong with killing yourself

>>9489803
Anti-vaxxing isn't a very good manifestation of that imo, they also very often seem to fall into the same camp of anti-public healthcare from what I've seen. You can argue that Obamacare was bad, half-assed etc, sure, but it seemed like a step in the right direction. Correct me if I'm wrong too, but wasn't a lot of it sliced and vetoed by the conservatives in favor of the medical establishment?

From what I've read anyway there's not much pointing to vaccines (even if they're taken at once) doing more damage than good, and I quite frankly don't see any reason to take the anti-vaxxer movement seriously. The fact that we've pretty much eradicated polio, smallpox, diphtheria and so on definitely outweighs the potential downsides (which in a lot of cases can't be linked to the vaccines themselves, especially not in the case with autism which doesn't make anti-vaxxers look all that good. Papers like these really blew that unfounded hypothesis out of the water https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2275444).

Anyway, I kind of want to bail from this thread because I have work to do and need to stop making excuses. If you've got a good paper feel free to link it here and I'll have a look later.

>>9489839
hilarious
>the government isn't made up of people
i bet you're a communist who believes the people shouldn't be armed.

>https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289610001340
> Analysis of data drawn from the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health revealed statistically significant and negative associations between county-level IQ and the property crime rate, the burglary rate, the larceny rate, the motor vehicle theft rate, the violent crime rate, the robbery rate, and the aggravated assault rate. Additional analyses revealed that these associations were not confounded by a measure of concentrated disadvantage that captures the effects of race, poverty, and other social disadvantages of the county.

>>9489861
>often seem to fall into the same camp of anti-public healthcare from what I've seen.
as I said, you have probably only been exposed to the strawman that the media has created in order to slander their position in order to protect their business relationships with the medical industry.

not sure why you're bringing politics into this. I'm talking about the change in vaccination regimen that occurred over the past couple decades.

the whole point of my post was that the anti-vaxxers aren't actually anti-vaccine. They're against massive over-vaccination. They are for the traditional vaccination regimen. The media searches out a few rare retards who are totally against all vaccination and then trots them out on the world stage as representatives of this group of people who are threatening the media/medicine machine's income in order to protect their business, at the cost of public health.

>>9490105
I think he was mocking commies, fampie. I hope at least.

>>9488893
>propaganda
literally the whole book is composed of the authors apologizing and prostrating over their results and trying to obfuscate.

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>>9488081

>I don't know, human rights (aka. the most defining value of the West)?

Human rights are a meme invented by liberals. In any case there is no human right that guarantees residence in the West and receipt of welfare payments. Also you shouldn't use "aka" like that, the abbreviation you were looking for was "i.e.", which means "that is." I feel as though you are not very well educated and my even be fresh off the boat from reddit or some other shithole.

>>9488083

I feel empathy towards the people who are negatively affected by mass third world immigration, which is more than you can say of the refugees welcome crowd. I've noticed that liberals aren't so tolerant and compassionate when it comes to white people, I wonder why that is?

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>>9488504
To respond this retardation:
1/2) These are meaningless assertions. All kinds of abstract, non-numerical concepts are measured with numerical scales and ranked thereby. Democracy, dictatorship, psychological traits, etc. If you throw away the categorization and quantification of subjective concepts you, in effect, throw away the whole of the body of research within the "soft-sciences".
3)IQ IS highly heritable. EXTREMELY heritable. The twin studies prove this like no other. When is this quote from? Monozygotic twins raised apart have extremely correlated IQs.
>muh environment
4)Modern IQ tests are very reliable.

This guy is retarded.

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>>9488512

>Look how cities with fuckloads immigrants vote, be it London or Paris. Usually the anti migrant stuff comes from the country.

What's your IQ bud?

>>9489729
keksimux maxmus

>>9490187
>we should neglect human rights so a small wealthy elite can oppress the rest, and the excuse will be they are entitled to it because genetics.

Why are /pol/acks so dumb?

>>9490282
I didn't read what you're responding to, but I'll assume he was advocating laissez faire as a form of eugenics. How is that not a fair assertion? Downward redistribution and socialism policies tend to be functionally dysgenic given that there's no Darwinian pressure to advantage the intelligent. Obviously we all agree the more preferable system would be some kind of democratic-socialism a la Sweden, but with eugenic policies, but that will NEVER happen because of the mainstream fear of the word "Eugenics" and because they would be "racist" in practice.

>>9490302
This is pure ideology at it's peak. IQ was a mistake makes people believe a number defines their ability to function in a society. Then again no one in 4chan will breed so I'm with it.

>>9490336
But IQ is literally predictive of every facet of life! Why do you refuse this just because it seems unfair? I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but IQ predicts life successes from academic to professional to love and family life. How can we ignore this? It's the best measurement of the only comparative advantage that human beings have over animals: our minds.

>>9490336
I'd also like to point out that you implicitly reasserted the heritability of psychological traits with that "jab", my dude.

>>9490282
>we should neglect human rights so a small wealthy elite can oppress the rest
what a concise description of communism

>>9490345
>>9490357
STOP A NUMBER CAN'T DEFINE US RRREEEEEE

>>9489718
Richer people are friendlier because they have shit and have less to be angry about you fucking retard it's not rocket science.
As for tribalism, people are only tribal to the point of being unfriendly/rude/hostile when they're poor. Even when richer people are tribal they know how to hide it which matters.
Why are you bringing in some sob-story about "genuine kindness" nobody cares, we're talking about common courtesy to not be a rude/violent piece of shit.

>>9488105
1984 must surely be the most important Western work of fiction published in the 20th century. I can't think of any other whose ideas have penetrated our cultural consciousness so deeply. And I'm not talking about terminology - groupthink, doublespeak, etc. - which for some reason most people get extra hung up on and exalt as its most influential legacy. I'm talking about that sceptical undercurrent which seems to find applicability in just about every political discussion I have. I dunno, it's probably just me.

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>>9485718
>>9485723
>>9485732
gtfo off my /lit/

>>9485832
meme book

>>9490282

If you think that you're entitled to any of my wealth then you can fuck off back to /heftylol/

>>9486780
Been hearing about this book alot. Have it on my drive, should get to it some time then. What was your background before reading it? Not a mathlete.

>>9488016
>irreversibly destroy your economy, society, culture, and ethnicity forever
>preserve your economy, society, culture, and ethnicity
Shouldn't be very hard at all to anyone not mentally ill.