Will postmodernism lead us to our ruin? Should we go back to

modernism huh. world war 2 wasn't deterrent enough?

>>9423241
let's go neo-neo-classisism

Postmodernism ruined women. That's for sure.

>>9423260
i am ok with that

Shouldn't you define postmodernism before you we have this argument?

>>9423273
isn't it pretty well defined already?
t. not OP

>>9423277
No.

>>9423241
Dumb frogposter

>>9423273
>define postmodernism
is this a new CIA torture method? because it's always a fucking huge shitfest disaster

>>9423241
Modernism is the foundation for coherent civilization. Catering to amoral nutcases, drug users, people who wish to reshape reality to how they'd prefer it to be is how we destroy ourselves. The enlightenment(which is worshiped by modernists) led to science--vaccines, physics, modern medicine-- now postmodernism has accelerated the deintellectualization of the west.

>>9423267

How? I doubt many here would enjoy being with the prototypical 50s housewife style female either.

>>9423291
this is an overly simplistic view, but so is it's inverse, that modern society has led to nothing but genocide, nuclear war, terrorism, car crashes, heart disease, diabetes, pornography addiction, etc etc.

The truth is that the Good and the Evil are symmetric. Any rise in Good is accompanied by an equal rise in Evil.

>>9423260
neo-geo-classicism

>>9423252
You are a silly man.

>>9423313
>The truth is that the Good and the Evil are symmetric. Any rise in Good is accompanied by an equal rise in Evil
So let's dehumanize ourselves in the name of stability!

>>9423313
So, social constructionism is both good and evil? This aspect of postmodernism asserted by Focoult, Berger, Satre, and even novelists like Pinecone is toxic. It's not evil or good, but genuinely asserts that science, what made us advance to this point in history is all subjective bullshit. That's called stupid.

>>9423333
the inconvenient truth for ill-read reactionary frog posters; ww2 was largely fuelled by modernist thinking. the beginnings of pomo was an attempt to reason out the horror that it caused.

>>9423295
Not that anon, and I don't necessarily agree with him, but most of the data seems to suggest that those 50s housewives were on average happier and more content than even successful female lawyers, business women and the like, to say nothing of the unsuccessful female professional types and females engaged in wageslave-type work and menial labour. Of course, those 50s housewives also seemed to be happier than males in the work force as well, then or now, so make of that what you will.

I wouldn't really blame any of that squarely that on post-modernism though.

>>9423366
see
>>9423313

>>9423374
you miss the point. trying to reintegrate modernism because pomo is destructive makes no sense considering the level of destruction seen when modernism was in vogue. no one is saying modernism = all bad things.

>>9423394
Fair enough.

>>9423366
*perversion of modernism and economic instability caused WW2
Doesn't matter because most postmodernists are Marxist or socialist and the destruction of truth in nations plagued by Marxist thought precluded mass murder

>>9423405
lol. bad bait my dude.

>>9423295
>I doubt many here would enjoy being with the prototypical 50s housewife style female either.
Why?

>>9423412
Highlighting the absurdity of saying modernism caused WW2.

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I think post-modernism is quite useful. Because it means that you can nihilistically laugh at all the bourgeois liberals who opened Pandora's box and simply tell them that their interpretation of the world is one among an infinite amount, and that there's no reason to privilege theirs.

It's fun watching them implode when you do.

>>9423458
Hello Mr. Bannon.

>>9423427
or it shows a lack of awareness, that the ussr and stalin both happened in a high period for modernist art and thinking.

>po-mo thread

awesome. its the early 90's again

>>9423463
>insisting on the perspectival nature of intepretation
>"Hello Mr. Bannon"

toplel

>>9423464
So, you're saying Marxism is modernism? So why are all the postmodernists Marx lovers? Derrida, Foucoult, Sartre, and their buddies were all unabashed marxists. Destroyed your own argument

>>9423524
But Marxism is the ultimate grand narrative, so those people aren't postmodernists

>>9423524
Frenchfags aren't the only Marxists In the world, they're only the least successful.

>>9423524
no, I'm saying those genocides you refer to happened under the umbrella of modernism. why are early pomo thinkers influenced by marx? one reason is a reaction toward internationalism against the kind of nationalism which set off the domino effect of ww1, leading into ww2.

>>9423546
True, but they are venerated as such. so, founding postmodernists were hypocrites.

>>9423524
Marxism certainly is modernistic. It rejects anything supernatural, and is republican and exalts science as the pathway to Communism. You literally can't get any more modernistic than that.

>>9423562
>founding postmodernists were hypocrites
I can't tell If this is supposed to be a discovery or statement, 90% of French postmodernists criticism of each other are that their postmodernists and misread Marx.

>>9423295
>Prototypical 50s housewife
>Implying she didn't work etc.
When will this meme end? Millions of women worked part time in the 50s and 60s or even full time in teaching and nursing. This was started by 70s feminists trying to garner social rights by claiming they had economic opportunity, but this was false.

>>9423574
Had *no* economic opportunity.

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We need to go back.

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>>9423564
Tfw you realize being an anarconickcageist is as postmodern as you can get politically

>>9423524
>>9423562
>>9423546

Jesus fucking christ. YES, Marxism is part of Modernism. Generally when speaking of Modernism as a historical/political period, you're talking about Capitalism, Socialism and Fascism. The three "Grand Narratives" of the 21st century.

WW2 was supposed to settle that score, but in the end Capitalism became morally bankrupt because it only won by being the first to develop nuclear weapons.

Modernism is the belief that history is a story of upwards progress and achievement, 'a climb up the mountain' so to speak. Marxism, Fascism and Democracy all held this in common (even Fascism with its neo-classicist aesthetic pretensions).

POST-modernism, or POST-marxism, such as the pomo thinkers that seem to be hated so much around here (despite having not been read by people who hold those opinions), were a reaction to the mass destabilization of ww2 and the society that followed.

If "post-modern" writers refer to Marx, or Hegel, or Nietzsche or any number of modernist philosophers, it's because they're trying to salvage those bodies of thought, to critique them, to pull something useful out of the wreckage of the modern world.

This whole "Pomo's destroyed Truth" is fucking bullshit. Auschwitz destroyed Truth. Hiroshima destroyed Truth. The Gulags destroyed Truth.

>>9423582
No we don't. We need to manifest something new.

Will to power my melanin-enriched friend.

>>9423601
>>9423601
>The three "Grand Narratives" of the 21st century.

That should read 20th century, my bad, but hopefully that is obvious enough.

>>9423601
I like you. I like your hatred for all these pop ideologies. I like that you point out it's already been done. Hybridization and globalism is the only thing left worth pursuing.

Postmodernism is what happened when Marxist intellectuals realized the Soviet Union was shit and they couldn't defend it without losing face anymore.

Instead of admitting they were wrong, they started to work to dismantle reality. It's better to say "objective reality doesn't exists" than to say "communism was bad and we were wrong to support it."

Having said that, >>9423458 is quite right that post-modernism can be useful to anti-communists of a reactionary bent who wish to oppose both revolutionary socialism and progressive liberalism and are too self-conscious to appeal to God and tradition unironically. Just say that "Hyperborean Aryans from Atlantis" are just a a small, local metanarrative that displaces the universal narrative of progress, in the name of the "multiplicity of theoretical standpoints".

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>>9423601
>but in the end Capitalism became morally bankrupt because it only won by being the first to develop nuclear weapons
I don't even

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Post modernism is really just a continuation of modernism.

>>9423601
you're wasting your time with frogposters. they have no interest in the history of thought, which is why they don't know these introductory facts.

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>>9423620
>post-modernism can be useful to anti-communists of a reactionary bent

I'm not an "anti-communist of a reactionary bent".

My point of that statement was to say that the insistence that grand narratives don't exist, or are axiomatically wrong because they are open to infinite interpretation, applies to every single ideology and narrative.

But this seems to be completely ignored by literature professors who spend their time perusing through classical literature checking off racism, sexism or classism as if the same kind of deconstruction can't be applied to their own worldview.

Egalitarianism for example is clearly just the psychological projection of a specific kind of bourgeois and affluent elite that basically hasn't experienced a single day of struggle in their life.

>>9423601
But Sartre advocated marxism. Either way, social constructionism is the dissolution of truth. Sorry, but if you are a pomo fan, then evil isn't objective, just like monogamy, and genders. Capitalism didn't create the bomb, the expansion of government did. The free market didn't just compete it's way to nuclear weapons.

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>>9423291
>Modernism is the foundation for coherent civilization.
It's a nice ideal but that civilization never materialized or could without total homogeneity and all cultures first being destroyed or assimilated, universalism always ends up becoming genocidal, it doesn't matter if it's liberalism, fascism or communism

>>9423291
>>9423241
>>9423355
>>9423367
>>9423405
>>9423458
>>9423524
>>9423562
>>9423620

Where does this stuff come from? Like what writers or bloggers or podcasts are you people listening too?

Genuinely concerned. This revisionism towards Modernism=The Good Old Days is bizarre to me.

>>9423685
well nowadays society is clearly miserable and nihilistic. Maybe that is why

>>9423427
>>9423464
WWII and its buildup was the epitome of modernist thought. On both sides, we saw extermination carried out in the most efficient and scientific ways possible. Stalin and the USSR are prime examples of the modernist mentality applied to control/eliminate the masses.

>>9423685
>Modernism=The Good Old Days

I never said any such thing in this entire thread.

>>9423685
When you have trannies wishing to implement newspeak, rapant hedonism, drug use venerated by college profs, and music is shit, it's easy to see how people want to return to rationalism.

>>9423711
>>9423701
>>9423697

I don't buy this is a "natural" reaction. You didn't just develop a dislike of Pomo theory out of the blue. How'd you even get exposed to it? What influenced you to hold these opinions?

It's one thing to say "I hate trannies" or whatever, but where did "I hate Foucault because he likes trannies" come from?

>>9423730
I don't dislike postmodern theory at all, like I said here>>9423458

It's actually quite freeing to me, and also quite funny, because I can laugh at all the absolutists.

>>9423730
I don't even understand what the fuck your asking, or do you think people criticizing French theory is new?

>>9423730
>You didn't just develop a dislike of Pomo theory out of the blue
Most people never liked "Pomo theory" in the Anglosphere, are you from France?

>>9423736
Ah, I took your post for sarcasm.

>>9423744
he's asking where this specific mis-reading of pomo and modernism came from.

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>>9423730
I read madness and civilisation, pynchon, ect. hung out with that crowd. Went to orgy parties, did drugs, and learned how pomo as a philosophy implemented ruined my life.

>>9423759
This man attempted to bring back modernism. Didn't work.

>>9423730
m8, if anything if you have read anything that doesn't belong to our generation and shares different fundamental thoughts, you can see how fucked up nowadays society is. It's simple be it in ancient, classical, medieval, renaissance, modern times, people had an humane reason to strive and live for, after WW2 fear has become so prevalent that is actually dehumanizing the world. Post-Mod wants to enhance humanity by removing its bad parts, when the bad and good parts are what makes us human in the end

>>9423744
>>9423751
again this "most people" and "people"
Who are these people? Most people I know have never heard of Post-modern theory, they've never heard the names Foucault, Baudrillard, Derrida, etc.

So, if you guys aren't reading this stuff, why do you know about it? Who are the authors or other influencers who are telling you about this obscure branch of philosophy? Did it come from your teachers? Youtube? Twitter? Books with authors and titles?

Also, I am not a frenchman.

>>9423367

Fair comment. I thought that other anon meant to suggest it ruined women for us, the sexy white males, not for themselves.

>>9423413

See above and then add because they wouldn't read anything better than the equivalent of Harry Potter even then.

Probably. Who knows.

>>9423374
If there's one thing that is well defined by post-modernism is that it's largerly a reaction to the failure of modernism, and the failure of modernism is marked with 20th century totalitarianism.

Do you people even read or have you just came across the word post-modern and decided this is why your life is awful?

>>9423355
>That's called stupid.
How? How is it stupid? It exists purely to our own faculty of understanding and reasoning. Our own conceptions of meaning; our own authority over truth value. We don't know truth as an autonomous figure; we cannot validate our understanding of the world around us through anything else but ourselves. This "subjective bullshit" is all we have, and all we have to verify itself/

>>9423685
It's a matter of education.
Prior to studying the postmoderns myself I had a view of so similar a conviction that there was only a short time before I considered myself conservative.
The world is far more complex and modernism isn't that of the rationalist's utopia.

>>9423458
Exactly! you can use the methodology against other post-modernists. A world of complexity unparalleled by that of science.

>>9423768
I can't tell if your data mining or trolling, you don't need to know post-modern theory to understand that a post-modernist professor hit somebody over the head with a bike-lock last weekend.

But this is /lit/ so they probably learnt it from Chomsky.

>>9423667
Ah, I see your problem, you're american.
Egalitarianism is in itself one of the main tennets of modernism (Igualité, Liberté, Fraternité), but post-colonial thought is a negation of egalitarianism / humanism.

Egalitarianism is the notion that everyone is absolutely equal and should be equal in the eyes of the law and so on, the evolution of the renassaince and neo-classicism. Post-modernism realizes the claim to equality for one person always leads to the removal of someone else's equality and seeks to remedy that.

I'm not even saying I agree with them, but their attempts to remedy it are much better than saying "white men are prosecuted" two billion times on a polynesian claymation bbs node.

>>9423766
>>9423766
>Post-Mod wants to enhance humanity by removing its bad parts

This is literally modernist thinking, not post-modern thinking.

Here is some post-modern thinking on the nature of Good and Evil from Jean Baudrillard's "The Spirit of Terrorism"

"...the total misunderstanding on the part of Western philosophy, on the part of the Enlightenment, of the relation between Good and Evil. We believe naively that the progress of Good, its advance in all fields (the sciences, technology, democracy, human rights), corresponds to a defeat of Evil. No one seems to have understood that Good and Evil advance together, as part of the same movement. The triumph of the one does not eclipse the other — far from it. In metaphysical terms, Evil is regarded as an accidental mishap, but this axiom, from which all the Manichaean forms of the struggle of Good against Evil derive, is illusory. Good does not conquer Evil, nor indeed does the reverse happen: they are at once both irreducible to each other and inextricably interrelated. Ultimately, Good could thwart Evil only by ceasing to be Good since, by seizing for itself a global monopoly of power, it gives rise, by that very act, to a blowback of a proportionate violence."

>>9423800
Retard or ESL?

>>9423757
>he's asking where this specific mis-reading of pomo and modernism came from
from postmodernists

>>9423681
>social constructionism is the dissolution of truth

You're very cleary a retard hellbent on redeeming american capitalism, but society has never been given, it has always been assumed as part of human order, even in religious societies. I suggest you read some Bataille (or even Schmitt)

You people are completely afraid to learn anything new.

>>9423818
>Ah, I see your problem, you're american.

No I'm not. I'm Norwegian.

>their attempts to remedy it

They don't remedy anything. Postmodernism is called "deconstruction" for a reason, it's not called "construction".

>>9423818
>Post-modernism realizes the claim to equality for one person always leads to the removal of someone else's equality and seeks to remedy that.
That's still fundamentally egalitarian, it's just more extreme.

>>9423780
Science is inherent truth, or at least the closest thing we can get to it. When a person deconstructs concrete evidence because it doesn't work with their worldview, they become insane. Accept consciousness is a flawed operating program. Your brain mispercieves reality constantly, and has been proven by neuroscience. When atheists abandoned faith, they became arrogant in thinking that their own faculties produce better results. A faction of atheists reject science for social constructionism because of narcissism.

>>9423833
>Postmodernism is called "deconstruction" for a reason
lol. wat.

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If Post-Modernism wants to be taken seriously outside of Academia it should try something other than Socialist propaganda.

>>9423821
"In the traditional universe, there was still a balance between Good and Evil, in accordance with a dialectical relation which maintained the tension and equilibrium of the moral universe, come what may — not unlike the way the confrontation of the two powers in the Cold War maintained the balance of terror. There was, then, no supremacy of the one over the other. As soon as there was a total extrapolation of Good (hegemony of the positive over any form of negativity, exclusion of death and of any potential adverse force — triumph of the values of Good all along the line), that balance was upset. From this point on, the equilibrium was gone, and it was as though Evil regained an invisible autonomy, henceforward developing exponentially.

Relatively speaking, this is more or less what has happened in the political order with the eclipse of Communism and the global triumph of liberal power: it was at that point that a ghostly enemy emerged, infiltrating itself throughout the whole planet, slipping in everywhere like a virus, welling up from all the interstices of power: Islam. But Islam was merely the moving front along which the antagonism crystallized. The antagonism is everywhere, and in every one of us. So, it is terror against terror. But asymmetric terror. And it is this asymmetry which leaves global omnipotence entirely disarmed. At odds with itself, it can only plunge further into its own logic of relations of force, but it cannot operate on the terrain of the symbolic challenge and death — a thing of which it no longer has any idea, since it has erased it from its own culture."

See some Pomo thinkers even have negative opinions of Islam! I hope you guys learned something about Post-modern theory today!

full essay
http://insomnia.ac/essays/the_spirit_of_terrorism/

The main issue with the postmoderns is that they are still fundamentally concerned with objective truth, just on a different level. They cannot accept certain unfounded axioms, even if they may be more conductive to life, because they are desperately looking for the truth that can be chiseled away by questioning everything. It's just more advance dialectics, different in extremity but not in kind.

>>9423828
so you guys read post-modernists and didn't understand them and now have a narrative that isn't related to the history of the development of modernism and post-modernism? what's it like to be that dumb?

>>9423839
Deconstructing classical literature, or contemporary politics into statements of racism, classism or sexism is what postmodernists do.

And they don't create solutions to anything. They simply point shit out.

And why would try to create solutions? You could use the deconstructive method against the solutions.

>>9423833
Postmodernism is not called deconstruction, you fucking dolt. Postmodernism is a movement of ART, postmodernity is a HISTORICAL CONDITION, deconstruction is a TECHNIQUE created by a PHILOSOPHER who lived during postmodernity. These things are all very different and the only way to unite them is, ironically, creating a very postmodern narrative.

>>9423836
It aims for equality, but it's not egalitarian, these are different things. Egalitarianism is inherently liberal, if those people are all such adherent of marxism as they are, they should be against this notion.

You people are way out of your sandbox, none of you engaged in any of the texts you claim to be against, using half-concepts from youtube celebrities as academical truth when in reality, that sort of notion is in itself a poor understanding of already poorly digested academic trends of the 90s by americans who couldn't bother to actually understand continental philosophy and just improvised as they went along.

>>9423847
Post-modernism is very seriously taken outside of academia, marketing, politics, entertainment, all of those things have been extremely filtered through postmodernism and anyone who has any passing idea about what postmodernism actually is can see it pretty clearly.

>>9423821
>"...the total misunderstanding on the part of Western philosophy, on the part of the Enlightenment, of the relation between Good and Evil. We believe naively that the progress of Good, its advance in all fields (the sciences, technology, democracy, human rights), corresponds to a defeat of Evil. No one seems to have understood that Good and Evil advance together, as part of the same movement. The triumph of the one does not eclipse the other — far from it. In metaphysical terms, Evil is regarded as an accidental mishap, but this axiom, from which all the Manichaean forms of the struggle of Good against Evil derive, is illusory. Good does not conquer Evil, nor indeed does the reverse happen: they are at once both irreducible to each other and inextricably interrelated. Ultimately, Good could thwart Evil only by ceasing to be Good since, by seizing for itself a global monopoly of power, it gives rise, by that very act, to a blowback of a proportionate violence."
What I meant from removing the bad parts was not removing an evil mishap from happening due to good things. But from stopping the people from doing good simply because evil can happen. That is the dehumanizing point I said. Humanity in all generations strove for something be it by religion, science or other means. But nowadays fear has become the main mean to the point of people, societies and humanity in general fearing their own ambitions and settling for the status quo.

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This thread is a hoot, Its literally just undergrads panicking nobody is going to take their critical theory degree seriously. I love you guys.

>>9423867
Doesn't change the fact that probably the biggest uniting thread in every modernist narrative is the creation of the New Man and the New Life and so on.

>>9423862
>Deconstructing classical literature, or contemporary politics into statements of racism, classism or sexism is what postmodernists do.
oh, you don't know what those words mean. that's what I thought.

>>9423881
Yes I do. But you're welcome to exit the thread if you don't want to discuss the topic any longer.

>>9423867
>What I meant from removing the bad parts was not removing an evil mishap from happening due to good things. But from stopping the people from doing good simply because evil can happen. That is the dehumanizing point I said. Humanity in all generations strove for something be it by religion, science or other means. But nowadays fear has become the main mean to the point of people, societies and humanity in general fearing their own ambitions and settling for the status quo.

Your description of contemporary society is a postmodern description. It fits very much inline with texts like Naomi Klein's "Shock Doctrine" or The Invisible Committee's "To Our Friends" or Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent" or Marshall McLuhan's "The Medium is the Massage" and many many other post-modern books.

>>9423896
>Chomsky
>post-modern
>>9423886
I'm starting to wonder if the post-modernists in this thread have encountered post-modernism outside of Pynchon.

>>9423886
you say you do but the evidence says you don't. if you did then you would know deconstructionism doesn't exist outside literary theory. there is no political deconstructionism. you would also realise that post-modernism and deconstructionism are no synonyms and can not be used interchangeably.

So, since postmodernity repudiates modernism, why are postmodern topics at university, such as critical theory, literary criticism and colonial studies et.al, full of liberals and socialists/Marxists?

Do they lack the courage of their convictions?

https://areomagazine.com/2017/03/27/how-french-intellectuals-ruined-the-west-postmodernism-and-its-impact-explained/
Thoughts on this?

>>9423241
Postmodernism won't lead us to our ruin. The downfall of civilization was caused by two things
1) Allowing the masses to read the Bible, which gave retards the impression that they could understand the occult, the complex, etc
2) The sexual revolution of the 20th century which will lead to a resurgence of fascism and reactionary, insincere religious beliefs motivated by sexual insecurity and which will only be quelled through violence
Sources: my mom made me go to an Episcopal church as a kid, and my dad gave me a Houellebecq book in high school when I was staying at his place for the weekend

>>9423911
>deconstructionism doesn't exist outside literary theory
Well that pretty much confirms >>9423910

>>9423910
Neither Chomsky nor McLuhan works can be called straight out post-modern, but they are very clearly watching the shells of modernism and seeing the mediation of everyday life late capitalism is slowly building, similar to what peoploe like the Situationists or 60s artists are commenting on.

I'm beginning to think you're the one who didn't have any contact with postmodernism outside of your own american right wing paranoid conspiracy bubble.

>>9423913
There is a reason the term post-marxist getts applied to these thinkers so often. They're taking marxist techniques and applying it outside of a specifically marxist context.

Have you people ever even WENT to a university? Not studied, stepped in one.

>>9423913
they're not. just because you label someone a marxist doesn't mean that they are. trotskyist and orthodox marxist groups (some of the only surviving strains) are like 10-15 people per campus.

>>9423911
If you think a method like that can be isolated to simple literary theory, you're fucking stupid.

Do you think it's a coincidence that people believe concepts like gender suddenly have no historical context at all, and is simply up to the individual's whims, after taking a English Literature course at an Ivy League university?

>>9423918
They aren't wrong, but I'd take it a step further, French intellectuals ruined any chance of Socialism being reconsidered.

>>9423931
>Have you people ever even WENT to a university?
eesh

>>9423241
This thread should be very apropriatly titled /pol/ reads nihilist memes

>>9423896
okay, I've never read them :) do they advocate for a change or do they just state the contemporary society is this way? 2bqf I am pretty new at /lit/ and I am reading the Iliad right now. Any guide towards pomo philosophy you can indicate me?

>>9423937
Please for the love of god stop replying to him, he has been samefagging the fuck out of the thread for 2 hours now.

>>9423935
I didn't only say Marxists moron.

>we are living in the postmodern condition and the only way you can understand it is by reading postmodern philosophy
>im against historical narratives btw

>>9423950
OK it's more than just me, cause I didn't author half of those posts agreeing with my view on postmodernism.

>>9423951
yes but liberalism pre-dates modernism, so them being liberals doesn't really add to your point. moron.

>>9423241
>Should we go back to the modernism ideas or even older philosophy?
What would the plan to accomplish this even look like? Make some bullshit grand narrative up so that people start feeling better about themselves and start behaving better?

>>9423976
just like every revolution, write a revolutionary book and spread it to people

>>9423976
Why exactly is that a bad idea? Just replace the old narrative with a better one. Why do postmodernists have these weird notions of historical inevitability, isn't that similar to progressive ideology?

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Everyday I become convinced that only a refutation of the usefulness of conscious thought like this anon >>9423838 formulated and a brutalist antihumanism are the only things that will move our civilization onwards to something with a greater peak of fitness. Imagine you're on top of a mountain, but you can see some people dancing on a distant mountain that is even taller than yours. If you want to get to that taller mountain, you have to climb down from yours first - like Stuart Kaufmann's fitness landscape. Similary, we'll just have to burn down damn near everything derived from abrahamic religions, like slave-morality/victim-privileging narratives (Girard's gospel) that have been completely exhausted if we want to get anywhere away from our decadent morass of a culture.

>>9423983
Houellebecq tried, and even though I love him, he failed to be revolutionary

>>9423984
Well, you have to get people to believe it, and ideally it has to not be a rehash of something that was tried before and failed.

>>9423974
Either way they don't self-identify with the postmodern condition even though they teach it to 19 year olds.

So they are either being hypocritical, or they are consciously trying to destroy what came before them.

>>9423990
People will believe anything. It's not the masses that is the obstacle here, it's finding someone superior enough to invent a new value system out of thin air and impose it on the people.

>>9423988
well I doubt plebs/normies ever heard of Houellebecq

>>9423241
Neo-Traditionalism is where its at.

>>9423991
then they aren't post-modernists. as a teacher, you have to teach a lot of things you don't personally believe in.

>>9424036
Touché

>>9423918
seems needlessly conspiratorial. What's an easier answer to the fragmentation of the left: a group of fringe french philosopher's poisoned the people's minds or that neo-liberalism's collusion with Capital has rendered it uncredible to many leftists?

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>>9423241
>going BACK to modernism after it's been irrevocably BTFO

the only honest path is NRx
Postmodernism is serving its purpose in dismantling the Enlightenment ideals in preparation for Dark Enlightenment

>>9424058
Both

>>9424058
It becomes like conspiratorial when you take into account Deleuze and Guattari, there's a very real credible chance they were both "fascist" infiltrators.

>>9424063
The dark ages you mean

>>9424072
...what

Are you honestly telling me fucking D&G of all people were fascist infiltrators?

>>9423601
how is Nietzsche not a Post-Modernist?

>>9424073
sounds good to me
the "Dark Age" is just another liberal enlightenment era myth

>>9424072
Deleuze and Guattari? Man, I can't keep track of all these destructive infiltrators. When did people move away from the Frankfurt School toward French Critical Theory as the evil big other?

>>9424072
What exactly led you to this conclusion?

>>9424100
Right, there were Nobel philosopher kings who fucked their sisters.

>>9424083
>>9424104
A lot of their contemporaries thought so, Badiou believed them to be reactionaries.

>>9423241
Postmodernism and modernism are just empty and incredibly loose terms it is impossible to ever fully define, the same way realism and romanticism in literature and the arts imperceptibly blend into each other in the 18th to 19th centuries and the Enlightenment gives way to ... whatever comes after, I forget.

History comes and goes and we misunderstand it and each other with all this vague terminology, like blind and deaf people arguing about whether the cat in front of them is blue, purple, or singing in A flat minor when actually it's an elephant on steroids.

>>9424115
>A maoist
>calling anyone a reactionary

I like Badiou but there's a very clear reason why he thinks the quasi-anarchist hippies are reactionaires.

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Post-Modernism has led to the rise of the Alt-Right and the death of left-wing politics in Europe, apologize.

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>>9424149
>rise of the Alt-Right
>death of left-wing politics in Europe
we truly live in dark times

>>9424149
Melenchon actually did better than Le Pen amongst the lower classes in France, the guilt for the death of left-wing politics rests on the stupidity of left-wing parties.

>>9424182
I was rooting for Melenchon 2bqf, Le pen can go suck a dick. But I prefer her over Macron

>>9424182
Melenchon Isn't actually far-left for France, he is decidedly moderate. Macron is disgusting though, It must feel shitty to be a leftist in France right now.

>>9424182
>"""lower classes"""
You mean Muslims

Even Ayn Rand would question Macron's commitment to capitalism.

>>9423277
>>9423286

Idiots.

>>9424221
idiot

>>9423241
We can't 'go back', but I'm pretty confident of a kind of neo-romanticist movement coming along.

When has pomo become a blank description of the liberal academic boogyman for the alt-right?

I swear this must have happened recently.

>>9423685
>>9423730
>>9423768
>Like what writers or bloggers or podcasts are you people listening too?
>How'd you even get exposed to it?
>What influenced you to hold these opinions?
>Who are these people?
>So, if you guys aren't reading this stuff, why do you know about it?
>Who are the authors or other influencers who are telling you about this obscure branch of philosophy?
>Did it come from your teachers?
>Youtube?
>Twitter?
>Books with authors and titles?
>Genuinely concerned.

I actually can't tell if this is some kind of very subtle bait, if you're satirizing blind intellectual elitism or if the relatively widespread resistance to postmodernism is actually this shocking to you but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and provide a short answer.

Foucault, along with marxist critical theory, is core curriculum in many mandatory freshman-level English classes. We even read sections of Discipline and Punish in my senior year of highschool so while pomo philosophy may not be common knowledge it's far from obscure. I think a part of the hatred may come from the obviously simplistic survey this level of class provides, but mainly it's teachers' tendency (here I'm speaking only from personal experience though I do think it's true in a larger sense) to use these ideas as a vehicle for modern liberalism and "sjw" politics (which are obviously pretty reviled here).

>>9424299
Can confirm. I think Foucault's arguments and theory is based, but I'm currently in a meme-level humanities degree and all the clueless "chargés de cours", basically bitch-professors-in-becoming, are sjw using foucault and po-mo to advance their agenda. It's a mess, but almost nobody in the major actually takes them too seriously, which surprises me.

>>9423313
go back to masturbating to Alan Watts lectures, faggot

>>9423601
>WW2 was supposed to settle that score, but in the end Capitalism became morally bankrupt because it only won by being the first to develop nuclear weapons.
The fact that you'd unabashedly share a thought so retardedly disconnected from reality is why literally everyone treats philosophy as like a meaningless joke now. You should feel bad

I'm so fucking confused by the people just now learning the average person let alone the "alt-right" doesn't like post-modernism, do you not remember the 90's?

>>9424335
what about the 90s?

>>9424335
>implying most of lit was born before 94
A majority of this board is undergrad, so no they don't remember the 90s

>>9424343
We kinda had several household names denounce Post-Modernism, and Post-Modernists responded in the absolute worst way possible; name calling.

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>>9424335
blame him, durrrrrrrrrrrrr

>>9424354
I didn't know Peterson was a post-modernism, I thought he was scientific realist?

>>9424351
Could you give some examples?

>>9424366
If you watch the Joe Rogan podcast with him, you'll see he bashes pomos like Chris Brown.

>>9424366
He's gotten his recent internet fame arguing against pomo strawmen and pandering to the alt-right

>>9424375
What do you mean examples? I last of popular Anti-Post-Modernists who have been outspoken?
Chomsky, Hitchens, Dawkins, Scruton, Colson, Jameson, Bloom.

A cursory search of criticisms against led me to wikipedia, I see the words Sokal hoax. I forgot about the Sokal hoax. Seems...relevant?

>>9424394
I'd like examples of their critiques of postmodernism, but thanks anyway. I already knew of Dawkins, Scruton and Bloom.

>>9424260
this

>>9424008
Anything "neo-x" is doomed to fail nowadays. There needs to be something wholly new, something wholly horrifying like Donald Trump to upset the system.

>>9423241
>Will postmodernism lead us to our ruin?
No but there will be a lot of pain in the mean time. Look at the sexual revolution for example. After several generations the people who agree with its ideas will have had so fewer children that the ideas stop being relevant.
>Should we go back to the modernism ideas or even older philosophy?
That depends. White identity will be a serious political force and be somewhat timeless afterwards.

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We are living in a post-modern world.

Nothing is sincere anymore. Its ruining western society.

>>9424381
>arguing against pomo strawmen

He's not strawmanning them at all.

The fact that people who were the spearheads of postmodernist philosophy always reverted to their Marxist socialism, and never applied their deconstructive method to their own ideology is true.

>>9423241
no anon, we have to go FURTHER.

>>9425612
>>>/pol/

>>9424299
Being merely introduced to Pomo authors in abstract is far from the necessary understanding one would need to accurately interpret what Pomo entails

>>9425622
From the whole postmodernism boogeyman, the only authors who remained marxists through his life were Baudrillar and Badiou (he's still alive, so he might jump off the boat). Actually, people like D&G or Foucault are actually derided by commies all around, and they don't like postmodernism either.

Is your whole life a succession of crazy strawmen who happen to fit whatever Molyneux believes about the left?

>>9426987
>Is your whole life a succession of crazy strawmen who happen to fit whatever Molyneux believes about the left?
this is most anons in thread.

>>9423241
>modernism
this post is stupid but thank goodness that shit is over and done with--im just waiting for political rhetoric to catch up

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>>9423295
>mfw imagining the average /lit/ autist trying to provide for a wife and family

>>9426987
>From the whole postmodernism boogeyman, the only authors who remained marxists through his life were Baudrillard

Baudrillard fell off the marxist wagon pretty hard. If you're reading Simulations or the Perfect Crime as an indictment of Capitalism, you're partially right, but I can't think of anywhere he actually advocates for socialism or marxist principles in his later work. Its just not about that kind of stuff.

His early work, like the System of Objects, is essentially a fusion of Marx and Saussure, but calling him a Marxist misses the point. His critique of consumerism isn't meant to say "Communism is obviously the solution".

>>9423815
Chomsky has very little in common with postmodernists.

>>9423366
>horror that it caused
>muh feel
>i'd rather the world goes down in the flames pf post modernism than rise through advancement of science in all forms because it causes 'horrors'

postmodernism is just a rehash of sophism, which was followed by Platonism / Christianity.

time for a Platonic / Christian revival lads

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All men, inasmuch as they are not liberated from the bondage of Time follow the downward path of history, whether they know it or not, and whether they like it or not.

Few indeed thoroughly like it, even at our epoch, — let alone in happier ages, when people read less and thought more. Few follow it unhesitatingly, without throwing, sometime or other, a sad glance towards the distant lost paradise into which they know, in their deeper consciousness, that they are never to enter; the paradise of Perfection in time — a thing so remote that the earliest people of whom we know remembered it only as a dream. Yet, they follow the fatal way. They obey their destiny.

That resigned submission to the terrible law of decay — that acceptation of the bondage of Time by creatures who dimly feel that they could be free from it, but who find it too hard to try to free themselves; who know before hand that they would never succeed, even if they did try, — is at the bottom of that incurable unhappiness of man, deplored again and again in the Greek tragedies, and long before these were written. Man is unhappy because he knows, because he feels — in general — that the world in which he lives and of which he is a part, is not what it should be, what it could be, what, in fact, it was at the dawn of Time, before decay set in and before violence became unavoidable. He cannot whole-heartedly accept that world as his — specially not accept the fact that it is going from bad to worse, — and be glad. However much he may try to be a “realist” and snatch from destiny whatever he can, when he can, still an invincible yearning for the better remains at the bottom of his heart. He cannot — in general — will the world as it is.

>You know what's REALLY the problem with the world today? People who are skeptical of metanarratives!
Threads like this make me feel like I'm the only sensible person among a sea of retards and I don't like it

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Not sure if this fits with the theme of the thread itself, but is it incoherent to be both a nihilist&materialist and in favor of idealist totalitarianism(whether left or right wing)?

I don't believe meaning exists, but at the same time I see in a fascist or communist dictatorship a validation of meaning by the State. And since the State is above the individual, it can be 'objective' within the confines of itself just like morality was objective in the past with a God above us.

>>9427411
get outta' here with your esoteric hitlerism.

>>9427478
No.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7f3gPZG8xQ

>>9427459
don't worry, i'm also smarter than everyone else

>>9427475
literally me as well

I am just a sheep that wants the state to dictate objective morality and life to me

I fucking hate relativism. All I want is a purpose to live or die for: I'm equally attracted by Stalin and Hitler

>>9427485
good, stick around so everyone can laugh at you. idc.

>>9427567
Hey, it's not a fate that I asked for. It's lonely and cruel.

>>9427459
But the pomos themselves hypocritically subscribe to a narrative of glorification of slave-morality and undemonstrable humanism, but don't apply their own techniques to it.

>>9427657
how do they do this? attributing a meta-narrative to postmodernism is a failure to grasp a foundational maxim of the whole thought itself.

>>9427674
They don't realize that there is no such thing as humanity, only the human animal. Thus all those twisted and broken attempts to push a model of justice and primordial equality, an equality that never existed in the first place.

>>9427689
oh, another disappointing anon. try to read some postmodernists before critiquing it.

Is all the angry pomo defense iit coming from literally one person?

>>9427907
*itt

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>>9427907

>>9427915
I guess that's a yes, huh? I'm just curious because usually it's pretty universally panned here

>>9427935
there is at least two or more of us because I haven't written half the defences.

no forwards or backwards. just go towards the truth

>>9423295
>I doubt many here would enjoy being with the prototypical 50s housewife style female either.

This is only because postmodernism ruined men, as well.

Post-modernism is already dead.

We Modernism 2: Unrepentant Anti-Rationalism edition now.

>>9428175
modernism is dead by its own hand and rightfully so
all post-modernism has been doing is bashing the heads of any ghosts and goblins crawling back out of the graveyard

>>9428183
Modernism is dead, but it's been zombified as metamodernism.

>>9428175
>I have no idea what "rational" means

>>9428207
which is bad
Modernism was cancer.

>>9424182
>Melenchon actually did better than Le Pen amongst the lower classes in France
If by "better" you mean he was more than 10 points behind Le Pen among the workers, than yeah he did better. He did better among minorites and college kid I guess.

I'm happy with the results though, it was a fun election. Both main government parties killed themselves and Melenchon failed to do anything. Hate to see Melenchon supporters believing themselves to be some kind of revolutionnaries, even though if I was to teleport them during a major part of the 20th century they would have been called social-traitre. I find it bizarre anybody with a modicum of common sense can still believe Melenchon's washy washy program could lead to anything but a beat down given that it still tries to function in its own reality in a globalized liberal world. Either you embrace the stream, or you go all the way.

>>9427459
everything is a metanarrative. being endlessly skeptical is not good for the brain or soul

>>9424335
The alt right likes to bitch about postmodernism but their entire movement is fundamentally a pomo restructuring of typical conservatism

>>9425612
Do you think your picture is sincere? This post is on multiple ironies as well, so you are implying you are complicit in this decay.

>>9423355
You're deluded if you think science is what got us here

>>9431185
You're deluded if you don't think science is what got us here

>>9423458
Wait, didn't nietzsche contribute to postmodernism. I think he claimed you can't obtain truth or some shit like that.

>>9423366

But frogposters think WW2 was a good thing and want to start it again.

Holy fucking shit guys.

Read "We Have Never Been Modern" and come back to me you raging ducks.

>>9423524

Neither capitalism or Marxism are Post-modern/modern. That's as dumb as saying "capitalism/Marxism is nationalist!" when they can be both be one or the other or anything in between.

I thought that said postmen.

CONTACT YOUR POTSMASTER.

how many people do you reckon itt that actually know the first thing about postmodernism? i think maybe 2? probably 0 though

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>>9423602
We will wait for the Caesar of our epoch. Crassus has already arrived.

>>9431203
You act as if Science has been around forever. What I'm saying is there are things that came before science which had a more profound effect, mongoloid.