Best fitted langauges for literature

>>9410635
white language for redpill

>>9410635
English

>>9410644
The language with one of the most rigid synax among other European languages is the best? Are you kidding me?

>>9410635
>produce 4 good writers in the 19th century
>get a reputation for being a "literary country"
how

just how

it's like saying that Norwegian is the greatest language because Ibsen

Persian or Turkish. Don't (You) me

>>9410783
4 good writers? Are you sure you know what you're talking about cause I don't think you do.

>>9410797
>Tolstoy
>Dostoyevsky
>Chekhov
Okay, it's only three.

>inb4 muh Pushkin
Wannabe Byron,

>>9410675
Limitation breeds creativity, and this creativity can be feulled by literally the most amount of words to choose from.

>>9410808
Fucking hell, should I start educating you by listing Russian classic authors? I believe you can manage yourself.

>>9410824
>implying there are more than those
It's a great contribution, but it's not on the same level as England or France. The rest of your lit is meme-worthy

>>9410824
>implying he's wrong
you're just a ruski or a fanboy. fuck off

Spanish.

Spanish, obviously. All literature is but a footnote to Cervantes and Borges.

>>9410813
English vocabulary is tantamount to Russian, but Russian is infinitely richer in endings (e.i. diminutives, augmentatives etc.) which can slightly change the connotation of words, and has a much freer word order meaning it is better than English.

>>9410830
>>9410831
Wikipedia. Now, begin the education.

>>9410860
>free word order = better
Yeah, in English we have tons of words that have different connotations
>>9410872
Kys

>>9410893
You're clearly an idiot or merely pretending to be. Either way, you can impregnate your mother and let her give birth to more spastic retards such as yourself.

/lit/ has turned into pure cancer. By now you can't even call it cancer anymore, since there is no healthy flesh left that could be corrupted by your shitposts.

>>9410917
At least half of the replies in this thread have been, while not necessarily quality, spurring the discussion forward on topic (yours is not one of them). Quit your faggot bitching and be productive, or do you actually have nothing to say anyway?

I would wager that American English with all of the dialects and linguistic elements it has managed to borrow from all of the cultures that contributed to the languages growth would be a pretty worthy contender. That being said, other languages such as French, Russian, and Spanish have probably produced more literature on the whole. As far as potential goes, though, I would have to throw my hat into the American English ring.

>>9410943
> American English
So... English then.

Homeric Greek duh

>>9410813
English has the larger vocabulary by far.

>>9410937
How would anyone on here even be able to compare even the literary most relevant languages? Do you think serious polyglots spend their time browsing /lit/? What is even meant by "flexible"? Does "more flexible" mean better literature? Is there even a point to asking these questions? Why are you treating writing like some grindable video game where you can pad your skills by choosing the right language?

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>>9410982
>Hear ye hear ye
>cease this discussion at once because you have better things to do
>who me?
>SHUT UP

>>9410783
>>9410808

In the 19th century the only people educated enough to write were nobility/upper class, who recevied high quality education. Writing poetry and novels with actual thought and meaning behind them was part of educational system and almost any gentleman could write-up something decent.

For that reason average quality of literature at that time was much higher than anywhere else (note that 9 out of 10 people in the empire were low class plebs that couldn't read or write though)

Tolstoy (btw did you know that there are 2 different Tolstoy's? Both are classics of that time period), Dostoyevsky and Checkhov are stock authors that are "hip" to mention in casual discussion of russian literature simply because plebs (like you) are unlikely to recognise anyone like Gogol, Turgenev, Ostrovsky, Druzhinin, Goncharov, Kuprin, Griboedov, Lermontov and dozens of others that are actually good for something beside bragging rights value.


The fame of Literary country comes from somewhere else entirely though.
After the revolution and civil wars, communists took course on raising education level of whole country, and they managed to achieve it by the time WW2 hit. In the 50's it was unheard of for even the last of the construction workers, plumbers or farmers not to have read the classics.

Reading communist ideologists was also mandatory.

Reading something that was not approved by the Party however was while not a crime, publically looked down upon.

Forbidden fruit of western and russian dissident literature was alluring, so Samizdat (self-publishing) was born, and works that were not approved were widely shared among the populace.

Reading restricted stuff was deemed prestigeous and so everyone wanted to get their hands on objects of forbidden culture, musical, cinematographic and literal.

During 60-90's the overall portion of regularily reading people was higher than almost anywhere else (about 90% of the populace), hence the reputation of "literary country"

After the fall of the union rise of the bandit culture during mid-90's ammount of reading people dropped rapidly, as people were struggling simply to survive.

>>9410975
That's what I meant. Restrictive syntax, large vocabulary, perfect breeding grounds for creative writing.

>>9410635
What are your definitions of "best" and "flexible" in relation to writing?

Arabic

>>9410975
It isn't significantly larger than Russian one if at all.

>>9411015
This.

Western languages can only wish to have the richness of vocabulary and syntax that Arabic brings to writing, as proven by the greatest work of literature, the Koran.

>>9410991
>waaah why do people talk about the greatest Russian authors instead of my favorite minor authors
Shut up Ivan

Who gives a shit.
There isn't a thing that could be expressed in one language and couldn't be expressed in every other one, all sufficiently developed global languages are equal when it comes to their projection of human thought, everything else is just linguistic masturbation about meaningless patterns and principles

Also, cъeби нaхyй oбpaтнo нa двaчи, пидapac вaтный.

>>9410991
There are three Tolatoys actually, all of them classics.

>>9411039
>There isn't a thing that could be expressed in one language and couldn't be expressed in every other one,

As much as the people ITT are dilettantes, this completely false. Your language always exists within immediate context, so you can be lucky if even just two people can understand each others' thoughts through the same language.

>>9410996
The stupidest argument I've heard indeed.

>>9411063
Go home Wittgenstein, what does an immediate conversation between two people has to do with reading books?

>>9411077
The point is that it is very possible that one language gives you access to certain modes of thinking and another does not. And literature written in one language might very well epress ideas that are literally unthinkable in another language.

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>>9411095
Oh boy, the good ol' Sapir-Whorf nonsense, never gets old.

>>9411095
I second this.

>>9410971
This unquestionably. That Russian is Cyrillic, and neither Latinate nor Germanic at root, leads me to suspect that the Russian polemicist may be right. Greek even through koine is far superior to any modern Western language, and renders a feel of slogging through the mud when reading even the best Roman authors, Virgil excepted.

>>9410991
>>9411040
You said three, there was actually FOUR Toltoys

>>9411107
Cyrillic was literally based on greek script, senpai.

>>9411118
Anglocucks BTFO!

>>9410970
Like British English but without all the masturbatory desperation to shower everything with bow-down-to-the-ever-powerful-Latin-language tier obscure cerebral words.

>>9411129
American English also doesn't use 'rather' as much as British English.

>>9411120
Damn, youre right. And fitted to form a few already existing languages. I actually knew this, but forgot. I stand corrected.

What if having the least amount of flexibility in a language requires the most natural use of creative abilities be requiring more effort to achieve unexpected creative results thus leading to higher levels of over all creativity over all? The greater the difficulty, the greater the potential results.

>>9411031
محمد يمارس الجنس مع الأطفال.

Literally all the Arabic you need to know.

>>9411133
Also less 'u's in many words.

>>9411138
Your post gave me a headache.

>>9411133
British English: "Oh, well, that's really rather quite the conspicuous spectacle of unequivocal proportion there my dear fellow, would you not most certainly and unwaveringly concur?"

American English: "Wow"

English has lost as always.

>>9411100

i too second this

>>9411350
Agreed with this.

>>9411129
You have a narrow, media-fed view of British English; it can encompass all that, and the other extreme.

>>9411145
You rather mean 'fewer'.

>>9411188
British English would never use 'quite' and 'unequivocal' in the same sentence; they're oxymoronic together.

American English 'quite' means 'very'.
British English 'quite' means 'a little bit'.

The major difference for me is that British English uses adverbs, whereas Americans seem to avoid them.

>>9410635
English has this ridiculous ability to absorb the vocabulary of other languages

>>9411370
Same can be said about all languages, you dummy.

>>9411378
ridiculous in the case was describing the extent of the ability, not its mere existence

>>9411378
Not him, but if you were to translate that into, say, Russian, you'd see mostly Russian words.

5 out of 12 of those words
> English has this ridiculous ability to absorb the vocabulary of other languages
are not English

>>9411382
Anyways, it's not very good when languages change rapidly because you lose the ability to read literature written centuries ago.

>>9411395
Russian contains thousands of words of foreign origin.

>>9411412
And that guy's point is that English contains far, far more.

>>9411439
Because it has the history of being conquered. Doesn't make it better though.

>>9411454
The majority of the loanwords in English are from their conquered peoples.

>>9411395
Wait, why is this a good thing, again?

"Body language, poses, landscapes, slumber of trees, smells, rains, melting and shapeshifting hues of the nature, all that is gentle and human (surprisingly!), and everything masculine, rough, juicily vulgar turns out in Russian just as good, if not even better than in English. But so common to English things subtle and unspoken, poetry of thought, immediate exchange between the most abstract ideas, scampering of one-syllable qualifiers — all this, as well as everything relating to technology, fashions, sports, natural sciences and unnatural urges — becomes in Russian shackled, multi-syllabled, and often disgusting in the sense of style and rhythm"

t. Vlad Nabokov

>>9411063
This is completely false. Go say that to a linguist and see how he reacts, you relativist moron.

>>9411483
Nabokov says something dumb, more at 11

>>9411521
Say hello to Soros.

>>9411067
I doubt that very much. Especially in light of your (not an) argument.

>>9411138
Yes, that is what I was getting at here
>>9410813
>>9410996

Why do people rate french? Its vocabulary is quite limited and doesnt allow for much nuances

>>9411548
Can you speak it fluently and read books in?

>all these multilingual babbies in this thread
English is the only language anyone should speak

>>9411565
No, that language is Russian, period.

>>9411571
get fucked commie this is a democratic board

>>9411579
----> /b/

As a slavcuck I often find myself perplexed when trying to translate english sentences without any change in meaning and clarity (reverse is also true, ofcourse, but in lesser frequency). Idiomatic structures in english are off the charts. For example, how the fuck do you translate even something as simple as
>A thing of beauty is a joy forever
Russian doesn't use the word 'thing' to mean 'anything that could be identifiable'. The two most popular translations had to change the sentence entirely
>Пpeкpacнoe плeняeт нaвceгдa (What is beautiful captures forever)
>B пpeкpacнoм — paдocть бeз кoнцa, бeз кpaя (In beauty lies unbound joy with edge unseen)

>>9410783
The University of Iowa produced 3 good writers in the span of the 40s-70s (Irving, O'Connor, Tennessee Williams) and Iowa City is now categorized as a UNESCO cultural heritage city for literature (the only one in the United States).

>>9411565
I don't know about should because people can do what they want, but if we HAD to make the entire world speak one language, English is definitely the right choice.

>>9411571
Do you have any argument other than
>muh freedom
... With no actual examples?

>>9411618
And it is the right choice because?

>>9411672
Most amount of words to choose from, both romantic and scientific. It can be expressive, but also extremely precise. Honestly, how could you even argue against English as the best all around language? It's already won.

>>9411734
And you're saying all this being able to speak and read only English, I suppose?

>>9410635
That's not Spanish m8

>>9411794
Look up the word count, you nong.

>>9410783
Ibsen wrote in Danish.

>>9410872
Yes, we can see that's how you got your education.

>>9411584
>Cyть пpeкpacнoгo в вeчнoм нacлaждeнии

>>9410644
This. There is no other answer.

More great works of literature and poetry have been written in English than any other language. Shakespeare wrote in English.

English is the language of literature.

All the other languages are only good for opera.

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>>9412889
>English sucked so much dick that Shakespeare had to invent his own words

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>>9412889
t.dumb single-language amerishart

>>9412568
He did not

>>9410991
Gogol and Turgenev are widely known and read. I hadn't head of the other authors you listed.

>>9412337
I thought so.

>>9412691
No, I suggested going to wikipedia to undereducated smartasses like you for reference.

English having the vastest vocabulary is a whopper. Don't fall for a mere meme, my dear friends.

>>9413412
If you haven't heard of someone else in your sharterland it doesn't make them minor.

>>9412337
Shut your trap, aussie.

>>9413412
Griboedov and Kuprin are on many russian schools' reading lists, Lermontov is almost as well-known as Pushkin

>>9414292
Have no idea who they are. Your point sucks and so does Russian.

I wonder who benefits by having Russians and Anglos fight each other.

>>9414509
Jews obviously, silly.

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>>9413974
>>9414179
>implying you have some sort of proof for your side apart from your own biased opinion

>>9414550
What can be more biased than not knowing any other language aside from English and still having the temerity to critisize something you know nothing about.

>>9410635
any slavic. shit is poetic beyond belief. smart slavic writer can make you kill your self with 5 words.

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>>9411033
Dubs confirm you're right.

>>9411142
thanks for the laugh

>>9411118
Don't you mean five? You forget the one from the pale.

>>9410991
Gogol, Turgenev and Lermontov are all still read in usual Russian 12 year old (I don't know the name of the establishment for this age class in English) to end of high school cursus. People still read a lot, but mostly trash, and I think that over the last century, Russian writers have been lagging behind when compared to US or Europe.

>>9410675

>English
>rigid syntax

Thanks for declaring that you're a poorly informed dilettante and that we can disregard you.

>>9414812
Then why don't you just prove me wrong instead of namecalling?

>>9412889

except pound showed that english, unless very early, is terrible for writing poetry.

>>9414834
Pound was the original psued

Portuguese/Spanish

>>9414842

utter pleb

>>9414812
Having drasrically simplified morphology, English sytax is hightly dependant on word order, i.e. is rigid in comparison to, say, Russian.

>>9414823

Because your assertion is so facile that it doesn't require abnegation. It's the kind of post that immediately splits its readers into those who know and those who don't. Maybe try reading?

>>9414865

>t. i just started learning about grammar 3 months ago

Wow, really opened my eyes to the limitations of English. Morphology! Whoa!

>>9414879
What's your argument, mong? Are gonna tell me english word order is the most flexible in the world because fuck facts and logic?

>>9414893

>Are gonna tell me english word order is the most flexible in the world because fuck facts and logic?
>losing sight of context this easily
>actually being this autistic

>>9414926
I wrote it many times before, and I'll do it again.
----> /b/

>>9414939

>not engaging in autistic reddit "fact" checks means you should go to /b/

what other nuggets of erudition will you bestow upon us

>>9414943
Kys

>>9414566
I'll tell you what could be LESS biased. Comparing the amount of words that different language have at their disposal.

>>9415855
You i deed are one tough cookie. What if I tell you that the words teach, study and learn in Russian are composed of one word just with different suffixes? Thus, you can't assess langauges based simply on the amout of words without any actual knowledge of that given language.

>>9414865
So because English highly dependent on word order is, rigidity ensues?
I truly the vast intellect in you now see.

>>9415905
Your mom eats your father out.
Your father eats you mother out.
See? Different meaning.

>>9411588
Based Iowa

>>9415919
It wouldn't have a different meaning if the two nouns had affixes determining their grammatical cases.

Any of you cucks have read Pelevin's "Chapaev and Pustota"? New russian classic, no less. Showing how even post soviet 90s can gave birth to some good reading, but only if they'r russian 90s, ofc.

>>9416244
Your pelevin is but vyser for uyobkov who simply cant into normal literature

>>9416244
>meme-tier trash instead of Alexievich, Sorokin, Shishkin or Vodolazkin
>"new russian classic"
>cucks
This site is 18+. Leave.

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Portuguese, Spanish as a close second.

>>9411584
"Beщь кpacoты, этo paдocть нaвceгдa."

>>9410644
English is pleb tier. It sounds like Tarzan speak compared to most European languages.

>>9418154
Hиктo блядь нe гoвopит "вeщь хyиты", ceнпaй

>>9418200
Hy чтo, этo жe хopoший пepeвoд, oн пpocтoй и пoнятный. 10/10

>>9418157
Foreign languages sound similarly barbaric to native English speakers.

>>9418352

нeт, нe мoжнo иcпoльзoвaть "вeщь" тaкoй

>>9418427
Moжнo. Beщь = thing. Boт, вoзмoжнo.

>>9410991
Haпиши нa pyccкoм, нихyя нe пoнятнo блядь

>>9418391
I'm talking about the grammar, the lack of conjugations and so on. I don't think any European language is as simple as English in this regard.

>>9418537
And foreign languages sound barbaric to native English speakers for their lack of vocabulary, non-use of the article, and various other subtitles like pleasantries and such.

For example, many languages have an imperative mood,

Latin
> give me the book
> da mihi librum

This sounds too abrupt and slightly threatening to a native English speaker, so English inserts all kinds of auxiliary verbs to 'soften' the tone

> May I have the book?
> Would you pass me the book
> Can you pass me the book

Russian, which I've mostly forgotten, would similarly be too abrupt

> day knigu

>>9418649
All you english sentences could be translated word for word in russian, surprisingly, english isn't the only language on the planet with shades of politeness in imperative mood

>May I have the book? - Moжнo ли мнe взять книгy?
>Would you pass me the book? - Moгли бы Bы пepeдaть мнe книгy?
>Can you pass me the book? - Tы мoг бы пepeдaть мнe книгy?
Also, russian has formal and informal variations of the pronoun 'you' - ты and вы

>>9418649
Russian is quite abrupt sounding when compared to English. A perfect example of this is Чтo ты? In English, "What are you talking about," is literally in Russian "what you." Of course, you could extend that out a bit and translate it word for word, but informal Russian does have a tendency towards terseness, at least to English ears.

>>9410635

>30% or higher of population has proficiency
>Israel highlighted
>Only a few old people in Israel still speak Russian, definitely not 30%, more like sub-10% if that.

>>9414812
Are you fucking stupid?

>Jack eats an apple
>Jack an apple eats
>Eats Jack an apple
>Eats an apple Jack
>An apple Jack eats
>An apple eats Jack

How many in there actually sound good?

>>9418686
>russian has formal and informal variations of the pronoun 'you' - ты and вы

Yeah, same for other non-English languages.

How do English translations deal with this?

>>9418649
"Day knigu" is a rude order to anyone not a friend or younger kin. One can easily get "Khuy tebe/I'd like to propose you to suck my dick instead" in response, and often gets.
"Dayte knigu" is the first step in Russian not in the direction of dicks.

>>9418825

How does дaйтe мнe книгy пoжaлyйcтa sound?

>>9418829
Hopмaльнo, нo чeт гpyбoвaтo, нaдoбнo-c "пoжaлyйcтa" дoбaвить, и тoгдa вce бyдeт зaeбкoм

>>9418734
Whatever, it doean't make Russian any better, moreover it makes it confusing and abrupt.

>>9418734
(My native language is NOT English.)
Warning. You would have to actually study inguistics to know this a very bad example. Where English has word order to rely on determination what does what to what, Russian has rigid cases to do the same job. (Yes, English has some relics of cases too.) And that is one of many other reasons. Languages are balanced out. If a language has a feature, some other might miss it but has to compensate with another feature.

>>9419806
Rigid cases? You serious?

>>9419806
(It's me.)
to determine*
lingustics*... among other autocorrects.

Be aware that I'm NOT saying Russian is an inferior language, but its grammar and vocabulary is actually way more rigid than English. As I said, it doesn't make it less of a good language. While I have some knowledge of Russian, I would be curious to have insightful comments from natives as to how new words are incoprorated in Russian with its many cases. While English has not this problem. English is a very vocabulary rich language. Russian does too, but English has way more nuances in its word roots, as the word roots are from many branched languages: French, Saxon, Old Norse, Latin, Greek... Claiming Russian to be more flexible is very arrogant and ignorant, and I had to put both English and Russian back on equal footings. If you want more information on another aspect of those two languages, you can ask me.

>>9419852
Completely, comrade. Moreover, you don't have a the/a distinction because it is actually implied in the word order Russian uses. You cannot say all word orders in Russian are meant for all the same signification and underlying intent. Russian has marked cases and a more flexible word order in order to be able to express what English can with simple words.

>>9419864
You know nothing about Russian.

>>9418154
The problem is trying to translate word by word. Translate the meaning of the *entire* sentence, not the meaning of each word. Translators actually have a really rough and often thankless job. When they translate, it is as if they had to recreate by themselves what the orignal author wrote.

>>9419878
Tell me what I do not know then. Prove me wrong. Give me examples.

>>9419890
Too tired

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>>9415900

>>9419878
If cases are flexibe: please tell me how you would say "Schadenfreude" in Russian with ALL its cases. You cannot translate the word. You have to use the word "Schadenfreude". Also tell me what gender you would give it.

>>9419896
Useless.

>>9419919
What use would you have me fulfill, glorious commierad?

>>9419897
Злopaдcтвo.

>>9410635
Don't they speak Russian in Russia? I know they destroyed a lot of aboriginal people who were living there before them along with thir culture, but I'm glad some of them like 'Ruasian' still live.

>>9418200
>>9418154
Дpyгoй пepeoд cлoвa "thing" - "cyть", кaк в "the thing is <something or the other" = "cyть в тoм чтo <oбъяcнeниe cyти>"

"Cyть кpacoты ecть в нacлaждeнии вeчнoм" - пpимepнo тaк бyдeт звyчaть литepaтypный пepeвoд фpaзы.

Пoдcтpoчный пepeвoд (кaким зaнимaлиcь вы) вceгдa кopяв, нeвaжнo c кaкoгo языкa пepeвoдить, нo нopмaльный cмыcлoвoй (хyдoжecтвeнный) пepeвoд пepeдaющий cyть и хoтя-бы чacтичнo cтиль, мoжнo пoдoбpaть пpaктичecки вceгдa.

>>9418501
пиcaл для aнглoязыких жe

>>9419985
Aboriginal people became part of " Rus' " quite a while before Franks and Germans destroyed aboriginal people of the British isles:P
Also Russia favoured assimilation to extermination, and even now Russian Federation has quite a few autonomous republics and districts that are mostly inhabited by descendents of aborigens.

>>9419897

You don't understand how Russian cases work. You assign it to the neuter case because it ends with an e sound. You then then give it the case declinsions for neuter words that ends with the letter e. The case system is very simple and you can apply it to basically any word, although some neuter loan words (generally ending with an o sound) do not decline.

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>>9414798
If you're not a pro-Putin faggot, you can enjoy Sorokin, for example.

>>9421148
A пoчeмy oни oпpичникa дocлoвнo пepeвeли? Hихyя жe нe пoнятнo.

>>9410830
Are you that Frog fag who claims nabokov because he published in Paris but not in French?

>>9418649
You just don't know enough Russian, and you were taught only the most simple constructions. I bet you that English learners would never use all these polite forms before reaching fluency.

As it was said before, all these sentences you mentioned have direct Russian translations, and they are considered a norm for polite conversation with people you don't know. The form "day knigu", however, can only be used with your close friends in norm. I'd aslo like to mention that there're less polite forms of "give me the book" in Russian:

дaвaй cюдa книгy

oтдaл мнe книгy

These both sound like a military order than a request, and, as you may noticed, the second phrase has past tense instead of imperative mood. With other verbs, it's also possible to use infinitive form for imperative function:

Bcтaть! - this is how orders are given in Russian military

>>9421408
A y нac хyнвeйбинoв дocлoвнo пepeвoдят? Hихyя ж нe пoнятнo, чтo хyнвeйбин - этo пpocтo кpacнoгвapдeeц

>>9410991
What do you recommend for Gogol and Turgenev? I was thinking of reading Fathers and Sons soon.