time is an illusion

“...I give you the mausoleum of all hope and desire...I give it to you not that you may remember time, but that you might forget it now and then for a moment and not spend all of your breath trying to conquer it. Because no battle is ever won he said. They are not even fought. The field only reveals to man his own folly and despair, and victory is an illusion of philosophers and fools.”

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>>9409049
>“...I give you the mausoleum of all hope and desire...I give it to you not that you may remember time, but that you might forget it now and then for a moment and not spend all of your breath trying to conquer it. Because no battle is ever won he said. They are not even fought. The field only reveals to man his own folly and despair, and victory is an illusion of philosophers and fools.

>>9409062
dont talk shit about faulkner

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Lunch-time, doubly so.

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>>9409062
BTFO
T
F
O

>>9409045
Considering we can put an atomic watch on a supersonic plane and observe that time flows differently for it, it's not so much an illusion as less definite than we as people esteem.

>>9409167
Well, time is an illusion in the sense that it's just another dimension if I understand relativity correctly. Our perception of time isn't objective or truthful.

>>9409062
Turbo quantum pleb

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>>9409062
kys yourself

>>9409167
>and observe that
Observe your observation about observation

Notice something?

>>9409045
Time is a form of measurement.

time is an allusion

>X is an illusion

what did they mean by this?

>>9409823
That it's really different than how we perceive it.

>>9409856
Isn't it by necessity? What with the noumenon and all that. If that's the case then it's a fairly vacuous statement.

or am i wrong

>>9409045
But it isn't. It is literally unironically exactly as we perceive it. It is an entity that flows, there is a substantive difference between past, present, and future. And nobody can take that away from me

>X is an illusion
>why?
>because it sounds profound
Philosophy

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>>9409897
Basically this. We can stop making philosophy threads now.

>>9409045
Lunchtime doubly so.

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>>9409897
well, I guess I can throw away my philosophy degree

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>>9409045

>>9409945
You know this is common erroneous counterargument against philosophy. Pretty much all philosophers tell in their works that "yeah just ignore the trolls that try to 'solve' problems of philosophy by claiming they don't exist"

>>9410048
You haven't yet?

>>9410163
Just a joke, m8.

>>9409045
dude all of existance is just one electron that's in different places at the same lmao

>>9409889
You're wrong because you're implying the noumenon is a thing in the first place, and if you do then you have to prove it is before making asserting anything related to it (other than the denial of the noumenon itself).

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>>9409945
Fixed

If you say, as Julian Barbour does in his great book The End of Time, that "time doesn't exist, it's merely an illusion", you might as well say "I don't exist, I am merely an illusion", as Baudrillard did indeed end up saying ("I am my own simulacrum"), since as Hermann Minkowski pointed out while elaborating Einstein's conception of spacetime, "Nobody has ever noticed a place except at a time, or a time except at a place". By killing time, in other words, you simultaneously kill all "places", including your very own: i.e. your own perspective on things, which you created precisely by creating your very own personal spacetime frame, whose uniqueness implies that 1) It will fundamentally diverge from everyone else's spacetime frames, and 2) When added to all the others will amount to zero because at the level of the universe all these divergencies (which you abstracted by subtracting their relative values from the sum of all of them in the first place) cancel each other out — leading those who believe that a model of the world is the same thing as the world — the scientists, one of whom is Julian Barbour — to conclude that the universe doesn't exist, and therefore nothing inside it either, neither time nor space — or Baudrillard and Julian Barbour.
We are still therefore waiting for someone to write "The End of Julian Barbour", which is to say the book that explains to us that Julian Barbour "doesn't exist", because he is "merely an illusion". The question is whether Julian Barbour himself will agree with that book when he reads it. And that's where John Bell comes in, with his acutely psychological observation that "It is always interesting to find that solipsists, when they have children, have life insurance". Barbour admits that he has it. Did Baudrillard also have any, or did he trust that the simulacra of his wife and children would do just fine without the simulacrum of the simulated policy's simulated money, and save himself the simulacrum of the expense of simulating buying it?

>>9410279
And why can't it be a given that reality exists independent of observation?

Also wrong is not the same as unfounded.

>>9410279
kek

give me one reason to believe the opposite

>>9409045
your face is an illusion.

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What are things that are not illusions supposed to be?
Things that have an inherent being?

>>9409062
>can't tell the difference between pseudo-knowledge and real philosophy.
Nice pic, you should get a haircut.

>>9410346
You're right. I just said wrong as a way to begin the question since he asked if he was wrong or not.
>>9410388
I don't disagree with the idea, I'm just saying you have to bring your own argument before assuming the audience agrees with you. If you want people who disagree, try Dennet who thinks consciousness is just your brain pranking you, or that one neuroscientist who thinks we just have an incomplete perception that can be accounted for with science.

>>9410407
>You're right. I just said wrong as a way to begin the question since he asked if he was wrong or not.

That was me and fair enough. That's a whole discussion in and of itself, but still worth bringing up if you're gonna go ''x is an illusion''.

Time most definitely exists so far as the universe really exists but our brains warp it in a way so that we can be functional on a day to day basis, for example when you're dieing time wil go extremely slow in comparison with your daily activities.

And? What are you going to to do about it?

>>9409062
>not liking Faulkner
i'm comforted by the fact that you will go on to achieve nothing in life

>>9409045
Time is not an Illusion, time it's an abstract concept. Our perception of that concept it's an Illusion.

"This world is an illusion, exile!"

>>9410265
The problem is that are lots of impressionable children on this board that end up actually thinking that way

Firsscchht we musch understanshdd... *sniff* that OP, or Orishginal poschterr *adjusts t-shirt* as is known to schome, is infact a homosexual

>>9411782
Calling your opponents "children" sure makes you seem more credible.

>>9411860
That's not what he implied dipshit

We are slaves to what we perceive as time but may be nothing.

>>9412649
WOW! hIgHlY iNtIleCtUaL

>>9412660

Do you... want more?

>>9409045
Time is money

>>9412665
YeS GiVe Me MoRe You R a GeeNiUs
So DeEp LiKe WoAh

Get a grip, you faggot. I cringed so hard I started reverberating

>>9412674
Ergo the love of time is the root of all evil

>>9412709
Money isn't the root of all evil, though
>"For the love of money is the root of all evil."
>For the love of money...

Ergo, you're a pleb

Zizek is like Sam Harris and other idealists or proclaimed socialists.
Not in what they believe.
But that they can seem to understand that most people aren't like them, some people NEED a belief in god, some people need to be ruled, some people are violent, most people are selfish, some people don't want help the world or be a "community", some people are very naive, some are just stupid.

Their world view only works if everyone thought like them.

>>9412720
>Can't

>>9412718
Maybe read that post again and consider that in your rush to be clever you've actually been a bit stupid

>>9412720
>some people NEED a belief in god...
hurr, wtf do you think althusser, lacan and zizek talk about all the time? inherent anthropological need for absolute systems and le big other. the whole point is that it isnt just onesided manipulation and coercion.

>>9412725
How's that you gay faggot

>>9412728
You miss the point.
Idealism is the problem.
Whatever everyone's beliefs are or aren't is irrelevant. The point is you can't change them.
Everyone who thinks the world can be better place through some movement or revolution, or actually think "star trek world" is an achieveable goal.. they are the root of all evil, wars and all bullshit.

>>9412740
>>9412740
>The point is you can't change them
Lmao
>Everyone who thinks the world can be better place through some movement or revolution, or actually think "star trek world" is an achievable goal.. they are the root of all evil, wars and all bullshit
Lmao

He says this unironically while posting on the internet probably from a Chinese made laptop or mobile phone while wearing cotton or polyester clothing and still alive due to advancements in medicine which have allowed his diabetes to not kill him

>>9412744
Missing the point again.
And I'm too suicidal to explain it.

>>9412759
>And I'm too suicidal to explain it.
HAHAHAH fucking pathetic

>>9412799
Multiculturalism is generally bad.
The world need nations (unless you like to force the world to be one big ugly culture)
New groups and ideas will form and split over and over. Same with language. Which causes division.
Humanity is inherently good willing.
Humans like people that are like themselves.
Nihilism and idealism are two sides of the same evil coin.
"Capitalism" is the best system humans have ever created. Doesn't mean it's the best possible system.
Humans need great leaders to cause change, not "big brother", we don't want to have to work for progress (those who do are the ones who cause war and conflict.)
We'd like to point at a hopefully good guy and say "that's right", maybe do a parade/protest, maybe donate some money.
But there are no more leaders.
I wish there actually was a Illuminati.
Majority rule is also pretty bad.

Some of this is maybe obvious to you, but it isn't for the majority of people, and especially not celebrity socialists.

>>9412832
What the fuck are you going on about, you absolute retard?
How old are you? 16?

>>9412897
Most people just don't want no trouble and mind their own business, even if a million people just died other side of the planet they'd still have the same sentiment.
They don't want their lifestyle to change or be challenged.

>>9410312
wut?

>>9412832
>"Capitalism" is the best system humans have ever created
>Majority rule is also pretty bad
Well, we found the authoritarian capitalist...
>hurr durr we needs obedient slaves to make me rich! Everyone who tries to improve things is evil!!

>>9414377
I'm not him but capitalism is great, you're just upset that you're bad at it

>>9414385
Hey, capitalism is a 0-sum game: for every dollar that I make, you lose a buck; for every winner there is a loser - which means, at best, capitalism is only good for no more than 50% of the population - AT BEST.
At worst, capitalism works out for just one guy at the top.....
Yeah, real great system you're shilling....moron. Get a brain before you start yappin' next time.

>>9409045
No it's not.

We can't quantify the flow of time, which is the fundamental aspect of time, therefore the physicists and reductivists say it's an illusion. Einstein, and many others, took the metaphors we use to conceptualize Time to literally.

itt: people who can't into physics try to into physics

>>9414598
physics doesnt explain time, its just a scalar quantity.
it explains spacetime, functions of time, planck time, time arrow of entropy, but never time itself, which is probably a zizekian illusion.

>>9410306
based feyerabend wasn't a postmodernist

Matter is an illusion

t. Hegel

>>9414595

>hasn't read aristotle
>thinks of time in terms of the presence of the present
>thinks time flows from future to past

kys

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>>9409045
Linear time is an illusion

>>9414569
>For every winner there is a loser
Congratulations. You just learned a fundamental life lesson.
This is how it's been since the very first bacteria. Since the first cell, whatever. This is how it is and always has been.

You love capitalism when it suits you, though, don't you? How did you even post? Oh, that's right...

You're mad because you're bad. Prove me wrong.

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>>9414875
>thinks capitalism reflects reality
>like, at all

Son, someone needs to inform you about the concept of human constructs......
But, hey - if capitalism can ever survive without government controls, you be sure to let me know, mmkay sunshine?

>>9409045
And so is death.

>>9415205
On the contrary, death is all there is

>>9415230
I didn't expect /lit/ to catch such a patrician reference, but still I'm disappointed.

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>>9412832
>x + y + x + october - yellow = capitalism

thats about what i got from this post.

DER IS NO BIG ODER

>>9415076
>Is bad at capitalism so is mad

That's right. Time and space are one in the same. "time" just a comparison of events that have passed compared to the rate that the earth is rotating, and to the rate which it is revolving around the sun.

Time = comparing one object's movement to another. Time is just an empty variable. All there is, is comparing the changes in events and movement that have taken place, compared to the rotation of the earth and the evolution of the earth. There's movement of objects, events, but no time.

>>9416561
To add to this, Zizek isn't the first person to suggest time doesn't exist. I'm sure there's a dozen or so physicists who have asserted this, going to sleep now so don't have TIME to look them up...

>>9416561
>>9416565
Aristotle says this in Physics.

>>9416565

I get what you're trying to say so I'm going to deliberately not look it up.

It's time to split.

>>9409045
that ish to shay *wipes shirt on brow* *wipes brow on mouth* *tug at shirt* there ish no fundamental *glands excrete* *shifts in place* the law of *desconstructs* *observes ideology* hegel ish very *sniffs immensely* *shirt tug* lacan

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>>9412832
Why do you think about this shit so much if your suicidal?

>>9416751
Because he's not suicidal and even if he is, he's a worthless faggot anyway and the world wouldn't miss him

>>9414717
As much as I love the guy, he absolutely was. Or you may say he was one of its fathers. I like to think he saw postmodernism as some sort of a cure to the dogmatic thinking, and did not expect it to become a calamity it is now.

>>9416671
Thanks, future Me!

>>9414569
>Hey, capitalism is a 0-sum game
>for every dollar that I make, you lose a buck
>at best, capitalism is only good for no more than 50% of the population

t. learned about economics from reading youtube comments

Saying it's an illusion doesn't make it not real.

>>9416942
>muh trickle-down economics
Yeah, that don't work, pal.

>>9418178
Works fine for me faggot, you're just upset because you can't get good
Now go get me my coffee, run along

>>9418241
>wanting other people to be unhappy

why?

>>9418269
Misery loves company...most can only be happy relative to another's unhappiness...it's fucked and weird.

>>9418269
>>9418329
>Implying I'm unhappy
I don't want anyone to be unhappy, I just want people to live in reality.
The utopia you dream of is not possible.
Capitalism is allowing us to communicate right now. Without it, not possible.

People are anti-capitalist because they are not very good living in a capitalist world. People want "free" shit, essentially.
Good luck with that.
And yes, misery loves company, hence anti-capitalists want everyone to eat bread and soup and be on their level.

Capitalism will take us to Mars.

Every leftist should be deported to Venezuela, to live according to the results of the policies they desire.

Does anyone disagree with me?

>>9418178
>>muh trickle-down economics

Nice straw man, faggot. Bush called it ''voodoo economics'' and he was a republican. There's room for nuance. The remedy for unbridled capitalism is called regulation, not marxism.

>>9418549
>Regulation
Fuck that. Regulation turns capitalism into what we have today. It should be free. No regulation at all. Let the best business win.

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>>9418555

>mfw anon does not understand monopolies

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>>9418407
>all leftists are state socialists

>>9418567
I do, but you over simplify or simply don't understand how monopolies can be overcome.

Also, there can be a monopoly regulation but no others, it doesn't have to be so black and white.

>>9418385
>Capitalism is allowing us to communicate right now. Without it, not possible.
Yeah, see, right there you're completely out to lunch. Capitalism didn't develop computer technology: governments did. Authoritarianism brought about computrons, not capitalism.
You really gotta get good to play on the chins, friendo.
Your ideology is impressive, though - I'll give you that. Can do a lot of things when used properly. But if allowed to run rampant, it's just cancer. Make your ideology serve YOU instead of the other way around....
Oh, and science will take us to Mars, not money. Money is a sociological construct that can't DO anything.

>>9418655
>Capitalism didn't develop computer technology
Hahahah, get a load of this guy.
>You really gotta get good to play on the chins, friendo.
Oh dear.
>But if allowed to run rampant, it's just cancer. Make your ideology serve YOU instead of the other way around
Right. You've got it all figured out, haven't you? Sitting there in your moms basement!
>Oh, and science will take us to Mars, not money.
Hahaha!
You tell that to Bezos and Musk.
I bet you "love science", don't you? That TV show called The Big Bang Theory anyway?
Wait! I forgot, you're a scientist, you love science because you liked it on Facebook, it makes you a scientist and you know so much about it.

...Fuck off, retard. You know fuck all about anything that wasn't posted on R eddit.

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>>9418682
None of that is an argument, friendo....

>>9418568
They would still love Venezuela as a multicultural, multiethnic paradise with no white people.

All currents of the left, from socialists to liberals, have a reason to love Venezuela.

>>9409892
>>9409897
>>9409945
Define before and after. You would need (in order to do this) a so-called "atom" of time, the absolute smallest amount of time in which "anything" can happen, so that you could easily define before and after as the relative positions of beads on a string of beads.

But there is no smallest unit, time is continuous. And if time is continuous, then there is nothing to compare any unit of time to, you can't have large or small units of time because there's no particle of time to compare it to.

This makes sense in your own life. When you're bored, time goes on very slowly. When you're having fun, time goes by quickly. This is an entirely subjective feeling.

General relativity also has proven quite a while ago that time is relative and can be different in different situations, about a 100 years ago. You people are behind the loop. The most popular scenario is the one where, for people or objects traveling at speeds close enough to lightspeed in a space-ship or whatever, "time" would "slow down" for them and they would experience what we experience as 100 years in perhaps 1 year, and come back to earth to find everyone dead.

This is standard shit that is accepted by scientists, you're literally a fucking quack if you DON'T believe it.

Continuing off of that idea of the relativity of time, what measure of time is, again, objective? What do we define as THE objective viewpoint from which to view time?

For practical purposes, we use our own viewpoint when talking about time, but we forget that our own viewpoint is not objective. It's just a useful formality.

Moreover, time isn't so straightforward as just "past to present to future"; tachyons are a hypothetical particle considered by scientists which, going faster than light, could travel from the future to the past.

Quantum entanglement suggests that certain atoms or molecules can send information to each other instantaneously, thus abolishing the idea of time as necessary for events to take place in and screwing around with causality.

tl;dr go back and read the post over, doofus

>>9418700
Not an argument

>>9418799
Free will doesn't exist, you'll always be a faggot

>>9409049
>field only reveals to man his own folly and despair, and victory is an illusion of philosophers and fools.”

Tell that to Alexander

>>9418920
Merely good marketing after his death

>>9418944

He was already king of the world before he died, and his legend inspired all the greatest humans in history. Faulkner was no warrior and he certainly was no king.

>>9418975
>his legend inspired all the greatest humans in history
>all
He himself was inspired by Achilles

>He was already king of the world before he died
He also inherited an army

>>9418555
>what we have today
Which is the most efficient system to date. Certainly better than socialism.

>>9419005
Nah, over regulation is destroying capitalism. Hence why it's so difficult to get into business. Small business owners get fucked but mega corps can afford to keep in line with regulations.

>>9419003

An army and a small backwater country in Greece. 12 years later he was king of the world.

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>>9418682
>>9418241
>>9418385
>>9418682
>>9418911

easily the worst posts on /lit/ for quite a while.
how does it feel to be so cucked by ideology, that you are literally kacking yourself in the face?

>>9419012
>there's too much regulation
>therefore there shouldn't be any regulation at all

A country like Sweden has very high taxes, yet it's much more business friendly than the US with regard to small businesses. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

>>9419051
>t. Butthurt poorfag
Get better at capitalism, or continue losing, faggot. Run along and make me my coffee

>>9419071
If you had actually read this thread before posting you would have read my posts where I addressed this
>it doesn't have to be so black and white

>>9419094
I didn't read the entire thread but I felt it worth pointing out. Americans are used to inefficient government, so they're more likely to want to get rid of it almost entirely. Not like enlightened Europeans. Libertarianism is a phase some teenagers go through.

>>9418799
>Quantum entanglement suggests that certain atoms or molecules can send information to each other instantaneously

That's precisely what it does NOT suggest. See the 2nd paragraph of the wiki or any article or book on it.

>>9410312

kekekekekkekekekekekkeke -


Great book idea. Cheers anon

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>>9418799
Holy fuck you have such a fucking terrible understanding of relativity. Please educate yourself.

>no smallest unit of time
Planck time
>time perception having anything to do with reality
Kill yourself, that's not what relativity is at all you retard.
>hurr durr everything is subjective
Look up frames of reference you fucking nigger. It's not just a useful formality. To observe you obviously have to have some frame of reference
>tachyons
>Quantum entanglement violates causality
How about you literally stop fucking posting about subjects you clearly have no understanding about and lurk more you fucking piece of shit.

>>9420760
Also addenum to
>hurr durr everything is subjective
Look up space-time interval you philistine

Propulsion through a three-dimensional plane is preceded by a directional force.

What is propulsion through a four-dimensional time preceded by?

>>9420760
BTFO

>>9409049

fpbp

Time is an Archon.

>>9409945

When does the present become the past? When does the future become the present? What is the quality of time? What are its Phenoemal underpinnings? What are its Epirical footprints outside of Human consesnsu?

>>9410407

Even in the depravity of Dennet's argument, the immanent Self is required for there to be anyone or anything to prank. The immanet Self is the indispensable foundation for any and all arguments, Dennet himself concedes this literally, technically, functionally, empistemologically, ontologically, metaphorically, and in all ways in between at all points in his book.

A Noumenon is that for which all scrutiny and vouching alike are perfectly redundant.

>>9418385
>Feudalism is allowing us to avoid starvation by keeping us just above its brink right now. Without it, not possible.

>>9421047
>When does the present become the past?
Why should we care?

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>>9421111
i dont care bout ur wrthless opinion poorfag

>>9421047
If you really want to know how it works, I suggest you look into relativity. It's not very easy to comprehend, but well worth the effort.

>>9420760
Literally non arguments, all I see is a buttangrey manchild

>>9421473
I just told him why he was wrong. If he wants to learn, he'll look up the terms.

>>9421473
>non arguments

I don't believe in absolutes, but anyone who asserts this as a response unironically and is over the age of 19 is definitely hopelessly mentally deficient.

If you are 19 or under, for the sake of yourself and everyone around you, please take a moment of introspection before you use a phrase like that, or really any catchphrase from a youtube "philosopher."

>>9418920
Alexander's empire collapsed after he died mate. He didn't even get to conquer everything he wanted to.

>>9418407
>>9418702
Zizek hates the whole liberal obsession with multiculturalism and political correctness, mate.

And any socialist worth his salt understands that Venezuela was never truly socialist - it was just another capitalist state that enacted populist policies under a "socialist" guise. The real problem with the Left is how it never dares to trespass further then that, content to just wallow away, just nibbling away at the status quo.

>>9419021
>12 years later he was king of the world
...and dead, after murdering his best friend and spending the flower of greek manhood killing barbarians, only to have his 'empire' fall apart and turn on itself, leaving nothing of Alexander's 'greatness' behind, except for the propaganda....
Great indeed......

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>>9412832
>>9412903

I don't think you realize that Zizek would "agree" with most of you the points you brought up (though he would locate the point of departure wherein ideology takes hold), and that the majority of what Zizek wrote just explores those themes more indepth.

>>9420971
Orgasm.

>>9409945
post-modern critical studies isn't all that exists in philosophy

this >>9409897 only happens when stupid people see big words and think "wow that's amazing"

>>9418799
fuck off

>>9420971
It's kinda tricky to use this article when thinking about massive things. Four-force is what you are asking about but you'd probably want to start at four-velocity:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-momentum

Regardless, basically it's the same thing -- you accelerate massive objects in 3d the same ways as in 4d -- by definition there is no "acceleration" only in the spatial or only in the temporal. The analog for "momentum" (velocity perhaps) in the strictly-temporal dimension would be "energy" (for massless particles). But once you try to change either you intertwine them.

Anyway, the weirder effects in 4d spacetime from our perspective occur only in relativistic settings: high masses or high energies (e.g. high speeds). This has some wonderful exceptions however, such as in magnetism and quantum fields.