>there are actual Marxists on this board right now How?

>>9337428
because we'll be post-debt within 100 years anyway and this entire argument will be invalid

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>>9337428
>thinks capitalists invented the concept of ownership
>posting that image sincerely

At least you're up front about your brainletdom

left-communist here. marx has no problem with personal property. no one wants ur cum soaked books.

Not enough experience with non-whites.

>>9337437
>post-debt

never heard this one before

>>9337467
well you'll hear it a lot more from now on bud-row.

out of touch with reality

>>9337458
>marx has no problem with personal property.
So I'll be able to keep my shoes while being forced out of my home and having all my money taken from me? Well that makes me feel sooo much better!

>>9337470
i literally cannot imagine an end of debt

>>9337492
not how it works, desu. don't be dumb.

>>9337493
it will be accomplished through automated resource gathering and advanced 3d printing.

>>9337496
Not that guy, neither am I defending capitalism, but to be fair, Marx did posit that any "truly communist" society would move through a phase of proletarian dictatorship

>>9337496
Except all those times it happened of course.

>>9337493
It should be pointed out that debt is not an evil in itself and that a post-debt society is not something to be desired.

>>9337443
>what is satire

>>9337505
yes but what that means is specific to the school of thought. as a left-communist I reject marxist-lenninsm, stalinism, and trotskyism for its expression in centralised vanguard party politics. the proletariat are the majority group and thus are capable of democratic consensus as Rosa Luxembourg pointed out.

>>9337531
If you'd left it at the image and the greentext, it would have been much more obviously satire. The force of the pointed, lonely "How?" made it seem a bit too sincere for me. It's straddling that vague middle ground between funny and pretentious irony

>>9337531
your fear is understandable, but needs to change.

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>>9337531
nor is it arguably even possible

>>9337437
>Start first job out of college
>Starting salary 100k
>Current savings account balance $0 post college
>Need to provide myself shelter, food
>Better starve to death, no such thing as credit

>>9337548
Sure, there's no problem there, but if that's the case quoting Marx like this >>9337458 confuses the situation for people who aren't familiar with the jargon.

>>9337562
that's not what post-debt means. not a bartering system, but a way of life evolved past the need of currency or bartering

>>9337565
I didn't bring up the jargon, I only use it with other marxbros. that said, marx doesn't have a problem with personal property.

>>9337548
Democracy isn't when the majority have their say, it's when the powerful let them.

>>9337492
don't worry, it's not Real Communism®, we're still in the alpha phase

>>9337443
>getting baited so easily
I can tell who thinks they're a big smart man but in reality is just a tryhard

>>9337597
lol.

>>9337437
That will only strengthen the advantages of private property...

>>9337583
Right, but his dictatorship of the proletariat, since it is run by people who would in all likelihood not be familiar with the jargon, might. I guess I'm just wondering why you're defending Marx if you disagree with his philosophy on such a major point as the vanguardism/gradualism/total revolution distinction

>>9337612
debt in a much, much grander sense than you seem to think i mean

Ban someone explain bommunism from an objective, neutral perspective? I find politics unsavory but I really want in on these memes.

>>9337583
yeah I don't give a fuck why him and you think yourself entitled to my labor. if you try to take my property, i am going to kill you.

>>9337616
i understand the concept... even in the most fantastic post-scarcity civilization my brain will always be my private property.

>>9337629
of course, you will exist for your pleasure only

>>9337621
>Ban someone explain bommunism from an objective, neutral perspective
pure memery in essence. A society in which the laws of value under a capitalist mode of production has ceased, and the class struggle has been resolved. Marx just wrote a lot of really hand-wavy shit about this sort of stuff.

>>9337609
This is how out of touch Marxists are. Explains why the only people who refer to them as such are sheltered young adults and nostalgic Slavs.

>>9337613
because what marx wrote and how that was interpreted by lenin are two different things. what you think marx wrote is actually lenin's conception. that being, a vanguard party purpose is to establish a dictatorship of the proletariat.

also, being a marxist is not a cult of personality. left-communists have long ditched the marxist theory of history.

>>9337623
>if you try to take my property, i am going to kill you.
Why do you not do the same with your boss who garnishes your paycheck for their profit, or the state who takes your taxes?

>>9337629
>even in the most fantastic post-scarcity civilization my brain will always be my private property.
Basically, Communism would entail the restriction of ownership of property to personal property, such as houses and things you use. The precise definition of private property in the Marxist sense can be a point of contention, but as an example, you can think of something like not having intellectual property laws.

>>9337638
what about life is pleasurable? being a fat cunt force feed heroin and donuts by robots doesn't make life any better.

>>9337648
>"Long before me, bourgeois historians had described the historical development of this struggle between the classes, as had bourgeois economists their economic anatomy. My own contribution was (1) to show that the existence of classes is merely bound up with certain historical phases in the development of production; (2) that the class struggle necessarily leads to the dictatorship of the proletariat; (3) that this dictatorship, itself, constitutes no more than a transition to the abolition of all classes and to a classless society"

t. Karl

>>9337650
I'm my own boss. labor theory of value no real. and I'm an ancap, fuck the state.

>>9337651
its not the same at all, intellectual property is telling someone else what they can or can't do with their own property. absentee property is that which i created. and again, if you try to take my property, i'm going to kill you.

>>9337663
we got a real spicy one here bois

>>9337663
No one in the world takes the labour theory of value seriously anymore. This is like calling contemporary analytic philosophers positivists.

>>9337663
I declare the entire planet my absentee property. What do you do about this?

>>9337671
no really, i'm telling you how its going to go down.

>>9337672
marx's theory is completely predicated on labor theory of value, without that it completely falls apart.

>>9337673
not give a fuck.

>>9337675
You mean Marxian economics, not Marxism. Otherwise you're right.

>>9337660
yes, nowhere does it say that the dictatorship is a vanguard party. that was Lenin. don't be dumb desu, you're not gonna catch me out.

https://www.marxists.org/history/etol/newspape/socialistvoice/partyPR46.html

Workers owning the means of production is not quite the same thing as owning your personal property

>>9337683
I don't like workers. We had a rally with the local union and they mocked my girlfriend for being transgender. They need reeducation.

>>9337493
>i literally cannot imagine an end of debt
that's poor in so many ways

>>9337680
i know i'm right...

marxism is predicated on material determinism, which is harder to disprove, but at the same time is kinda bullshit.

>>9337689
lol you need and your "girl"friend need the reeducation. degenerate scum.

>>9337692
You weren't right in calling Marxian economics Marxism.

>>9337695
This thread isn't for fascists.

>>9337698
i don't care. there is little different. marx would agree with me that his theory is all or nothing.

>>9337702
i'm not a fascist... in all likelihood commies would be much worst to deviants (of all kinds) than fascists. communism is "what about me!!!" while fascism is "what about us!!".

>>9337606

You're the one who got baited dumb ass.

You playing checkers right now son.

I don't really understand it. In my life, I generally want to live comfortably and own my private property. I never want to feel like someone else would want to take or seize it for "the common good". I'd probably support more socialized policies like healthcare and education, but forcing companies to work not for profit but the public good seems ridiculous and totalitarian. I also don't like how Marxists tend to advocate for a complete destruction of a nation's traditions and pasttimes and well as their advocacy for mass immigration. It's like they want to destroy every country they inhabit.

>>9337777
you're a classical liberal. welcome to the brotherhood, brother.

>>9337459

This is objectively false, city people who live in the most diverse areas tend to vote left wing economically, while country people living in totally white areas tend to support capitalist policies. Explain that. Exposure to diversity makes you less racist, not more.

>>9337428
*people who think they're Marxists

>>9337772
are you implying i wasn't baiting just then? lmao, king me already.

>>9337682
OK, I get that a vanguard party is, in your conception, antithetical to progress toward the money-less, classless, stateless society. Now I'm wondering why you're so concerned with attacking Lenin's reading of Marx. Hasn't his interpretation has been through the wringer of praxis enough times to be disocunted?

>>9337783
>Exposure to diversity makes you less racist, not more.

no it doesn't, not at all. when people are forced to coexist with other groups, they become even more sectarian. have you ever been around other people?

>>9337793

>Implying I haven't spent every waking moment of my life ever since I joined this website either baiting or hiding under 10 layers of irony.

>>9337805
I'm pointing out what peeps are attributing to marx was lenin. I'm not overly concerned.

Marxism is unironically the best form of government

>>9337428

You can own things in communism too, you dumb fuck. There's a difference between private and personal property.

Do half of you stupid niggers even read the shit you attempt to criticise? Honestly.

>>9337783
City people are, at best, better at paying lip service.

>>9337817
Do you ever think before you post? kek

>>9338209
>There's a difference between private and personal property.

The problem is that no one believes you. When you get into power it's likely that your definition of "personal property" will be extremely loose and you will control it when you see fit.

>>9338224

I don't want to be in power, and if I were I wouldn't want your toothbrush. Or your house. Or your yard.

Fucking retards, I tell you.

>>9338224
we've never been in power.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_uprisings_against_the_Bolsheviks

>>9338224
>No I don't make shit up, it's the Communists who make shit up!

>>9338233

So I can declare my house/yard to be my personal property?

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>>9338234
>muh perfect communism has never been tried

>>9338233

And I still don't believe you. Anyone who says that private property is illegitimate will probably not be terribly respectful of so called "personal property".

>>9338245

Yeah, as long as it's not like a thousand acres and then you burn the crops meant for others. Communism isn't about living in a 20x20 room with a TV blaring propaganda 24/7 and eating from a can every meal.

>>9338249
no politic is perfect but to say left-communism has been in power is incorrect.

>>9337500
> automation and concentration of resources
> implying access to the benefits of these resources won't require servitude and obedience
> implying you won't be thrown to the wolves for speaking out against the owners of the means of production
> implying workers taking the means of production in any kind of campus-communist fantasy wouldn't end in an in-group of domineering intellectual elite once again having full control of the means of production while creating the illusion that everyone is equal

>>9337500


All of those things take energy, payment, and maintenance, all of which account to credit, all of which account to debt.

>>9337569
this will never happen, as long as there are populations, there will need to be leverage over those populations

that's all debt is

>>9337597
> Democracy isn't when the majority have their say, it's when the powerful let them

It's when they have been convinced they have their say

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reminder

I think /lit/'s pretty far from hyperactive versions of nu-male anti-fa faggots that you seem to subconsciously associate with your own meaning of "Marxists"

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>>9338253
>left-communism

>>9338214
Honestly I live in one of the most diverse cities in the world and I fucking love it. You learn to love almost every type of culture and person, and want to learn more about them, while also slowly learning you don't really like black people and you just have to accept it but whatever.

>mfw a leftcom is dismissing misconceptions about property with a veneer of apathy
A rare sight to see one out of his armchair

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>>9338356
Forgot pic

>>9338356
well, that's mainly because we're not interested in vanguard or cadre politics and not fussed when the proles stand up. keeping to ourselves until needed is kinda the credo.

>>9337428
good. I don't want /pol/tards here they already pissed all of 4chan.

>>9338293
true

>>9337828
The first post to reply to the OP was objectively bad.

>>9337428
Well you see, in a society you often have people who differ in opinion regarding how it should be run.

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>>9338401
to be honest there is people like that on Earth choosing to ignore it with jokes doesn't fixes the problem that they control great chunk of the economy meanwhile you're working in a wage job for them, pay rent & can't afford your dreams due to all the payments you have to make daily.

It's faaair through! since we grew up in this we know no other way.

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>>9338375
Well at least you are dispelling misconceptions of leftism in general

>>9338419
>ignoring it
no I embrace it
I make fun of stupid commies with stupid jokes because they deserve nothing else

>>9338451
your not doing a very good job then
try harder

>>9338419
Your assumption is that the economy would be that big without capitalism. The gap between rich and poor might be getting bigger, but everyone is getting richer in the process. The living standards for poor people in western nations are ridiculously high compared to a hundred years ago, all thanks to capitalism. Equality for equality's sake is complete autism. People gain more from being unequal and effective.
And your dreams stay unachievable because they grow in scope together with your wealth. People don't dream of having central heating in their homes and a serving of meat every week, instead they dream of Ferraris and oversized houses.
The economy is a complex fine tuned very effective wealth production machine. A communist sees the value the machine produces so he takes it apart and gives the pieces away. But in the end all people are left with is a bunch of scrap metal.

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>>9337428
No idea OP. One thing that has always got me is their belief in the superiority of central planning. If the information with which planning is copnducted is:
>Dynamically generated by economic agents
>Qualitative in nature and impossible to quantify into useful data in a timely manner
>Unknown by the agents themselves ahead of time

How could a central planner possibly be able to achieve any useful outcome given the systematic nature of information generated by agents and how it is transmitted?

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>>9338472
>but everyone is getting richer in the process

>>9338480
superior? lol. it'll be worker councils all the way down desu.

>>9338472
>People gain more from being unequal and effective.

*sniff*

> everyone is getting richer in the process

Productivity is way up but real wages haven't gone up for decades and in some cases have gone down.

>>9338451
This anon is living proof that the only weapon the right has against the left is to misunderstand it

>>9338480
Not every Marxist places his eggs in central planning. You know that there are more to leftism than Leninism right?

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>>9338480
Computers and the internet of things is paving the way for Central Planning

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>>9338472
>People gain more from being unequal
Explain why

>People don't dream of having central heating in their homes and a serving of meat every week, instead they dream of Ferraris and oversized houses.
You. Stop projecting.

>The economy is a complex fine tuned very effective wealth production machine.
Explain.

>A communist sees the value the machine produces so he takes it apart and gives the pieces away.
What!? lol please explain how!

>>9338503
I was a Marxist for years making the same desperate arguments until I realized how delusional it all was

>>9338497
sniff?

Inflation caused by incredible amounts of debt together with high unemployment caused by globalist outsourcing and open border policies. Also a very american centered view on your part.

>>9338209
The government giving you permission to using something is much different than ownership.

>>9338245
What if my yard is 999 acres?

>>9338516
So you were a Marxist who didn't read Marx. Ok.

>>9338252
what if my yard is 999 acres?

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>>9338525
communism existed before government existed. what the fuck dude...

>>9338530
I read Kapital and the German ideology
honestly Marx was a bit rubbish and I feel its only the cult-like atmosphere Marxists thrive in that keeps his ideas going

to be honest Marx utterly destroyed all hope for socialism by ensuring any attempt would be corrupted by materialist brainlets.

>>9338516
I was actually anti-Marxist centrist until I read leftist literature. Reading on the life of Eugene Debs too

>>9338535
for the last time, no one wants your stupid grass. now stop bothering your delegates.

>>9338540
dialectical monism is not materialism.

>>9338540
>Kapital
lmao! at what age man?

>>9338507
>>People gain more from being unequal
>Explain why
>>The economy is a complex fine tuned very effective wealth production machine.
>Explain.
I did, poor people are getting less poor. What counts as poor nowadays would be considered wealthy a hundred years ago and royal 300 years ago. Rich people are getting richer, but they aren't just sitting on their money like scrooge mcduck. Their wealth is working in the economy, creating new jobs, technologies and and taxes for education and social welfare programs. If you take away the wealth of the 1% and give all of it to the 99% then you will have a lot of happy people for a very short while and then very unhappy people for a very long while afterwards because the economy collapses and with it goes the welfare state and cheap food and products. Wealth that doesn't produce more wealth is dead weight.

>>9338495
>>9338503
all forms of economic democracy is central planning

>>9338571
no need for all that. leave your wealth at the red door. we don't run on spooks here.

>>9338535
i don't care what you want. i'm going to kill you if you try to take my property.

>>9338538
communism is government. the state was created by the social contract.

>>9338548
i don't care what you want. i'm going to kill you if you try to take my property.

>>9338576
Shut up Stirner, how is wealth a spook?

>>9338584

It's a metaphysical concept? An implicit value hierarchy that predetermines the object of consideration?

>>9338577
>communism is government.
??? no not necessarily.

>the state was created by the social contract
dude i don't even know if you live in the same world as mine or maybe you're crazy af. lmao.

the state was created by "the social contract"
ok man hahahahahahah whatever the fuck that is. Please explain it dude.

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>>9338584
>>9338591
wealth is physical. so it's not a spook. Sterner never said it was either wtf.

wealth = having resources, tools, etc

>>9338594

>physicalism

Even spookier, my property.

>>9338591
Wealth = Money, property and other resources

>>9338594

To be wealthy is to have an amount of the 'right' stuff.

Fill in the blanks from there.

>>9338580
no you're not. after your sperg you'll join us in the book co-op making based folios for all the enjoy with their nightcap.

>>9338597
>>9338598

>>9338594
>wealth = having resources, tools, etc
lol. gotta call the spook-busters brah.

>>9338594
>wealth is physical

Not really, piles of gold and bread are physical, but wealth as it is traditionally conceived is related to exchange, predicated by value which is a metaphysical characteristic of those commodities.

>>9338598
If the concept of demand and supply is a spook then economies are spooks.

>>9337428
There are many reasons to be marxist. Unmotivated, stupid, and poor are some of them.

>>9338612
feckless mobs are based af.

>>9338592
you're not smart enough to deserve of more of my time.

>>9338599
nope. collectivism is a disease, and i know the cure.

>>9338609

Economies operate through a pervasive ideological orientation toward the medium of exchange, the objects being exchanged, and the act of exchange itself. In that sense they are spooky, yes.

>>9338616
Then you have no business in this thread about economics, Stirner. Go to bed.

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>>9338615
shhh. it's okay, feel the commiewave ease your pain.

>>9338622

Sleep is a spook.

>>9337428
>thats a fucking good pi-
>Capitalism is an economic system based on private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit.[1][2][3]

>>9338625
infantilization doesn't work on actual adults.

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>>9338571
>What counts as poor nowadays would be considered wealthy a hundred years ago and royal 300 years ago.

Maybe because technology got better.

>Rich people are getting richer, but they aren't just sitting on their money like scrooge mcduck.
but they are. resources are limited right? what this planet has isn't infinite, some people can have way way stupidly way more than they need meanwhile the ones working for them are barely staying alive. They use the capital they gain to survive, pay themselves a monthly shelter and all the other services that could be free (we got the technology for that) but aren't because the wealthy are not interested in them having self-sustainability. new jobs = wage cucking. I know since I'm wage cucked.

You're spooked desu but well no matter what you think as technology advances the more options become available for the non-wealthy people too.

The energy of the sun has always been free, unlike that fucking electricity company or fuel companies like Shell, etc.

Some natural medicine like Kratom banned by Capitalists & their buddy the state to keep you hooked to Effexor (Generic), Welbutrin (Generic), Buspirone, (Generic).

Phone service has always been free. Look up "Phreaking" phone hacking, the small blue box. Since the state defends Capitalists through you will get the guys with the guns (the police) against you for doing that tho. For being free from their services, they hate not being able to suck your resources off.

And
Free Software. Thanks to Piratebay we know this shit is legit good. You own a bunch of "stolen" shit thanks to Piratebay.

capitalism tm doesn't likes people like you being self-sustainable thats why they try deny you access to these things. Capitalists have their ways to use the state with their wealth to narrow your options out. They have done it all the time but if you want to look at the wall instead of seeing reality ok, your choice man.

>>9338633
sure it does. don't be dumb desu.

>>9338615
LMAO
You're super smart dude! sorry! not socially retarded in anyway </sarcasm>

Becuse his critique of political economy is on point, his argumemts with proudhon stirner feuerbach and bakunin are enlighting and because it makes nazicucks mad?

>>9338636
> i'm 14

you didn't make one argument or solid statement in that whole worthless rant. i'm probably dumber for having read that.

>>9338638
> i'm also 14

>>9338647
amazing that you can tell anything about me from a pathetic online exchange.

>>9338652
hey smart man whats your opinion on Ecology?

>>9338654
>Ecology
it's cool.

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>>9338652
>mfw capitalcucks can't step.

>>9338659
that essay is one of the first things that got me onto being anti-socialist. anyhow, what leftists call "capitalism" is actually socialism. whenever the title to property is either created or enforced by the state it's socialism.

>>9338670
This is why you dont take Ayn Rand fiction serious kid

>>9338685
ever noticed how leftists can't form a sentence without thinking themselves better than someone else?

>>9338636
>but they are. resources are limited right?
Some resources are, some resources are sustainable and some resources are renewable. Smart nations own their limited resources like oil and give contracts to companies that are rich enough to do get it up and do anything useful with it (unlike you).

>The energy of the sun has always been free, unlike that fucking electricity company or fuel companies like Shell, etc.
Then why don't you have free electricity right now? Because there is more to it, you need to convert and store that energy. Which is hard and expensive for a regular citizen such as yourself.

>Some natural medicine like Kratom banned by Capitalists & their buddy the state
What does that have to do with capitalism? If you worry about collusion between government and economical interests, then communism is the worst thing you could possibly go for. Also is there even any use for Kratom outside of recreational usage?

>Phone service has always been free. Look up "Phreaking" phone hacking
You are retarded, it's not free. People are paying for it to work, you are just using it without paying for to the maintenance costs. It's not just <there> and works on its own.

>Free Software. Thanks to Piratebay we know this shit is legit good. You own a bunch of "stolen" shit thanks to Piratebay.
What the hell does Free Software have to do with piratebay? Do you even know what Free Software is?

>capitalism tm doesn't likes people like you being self-sustainable thats why they try deny you access to these things.
You can still get these things on a self-sustainable level, but it is way more expensive for you. You can get your own solar panels, battery arrays, water tanks for rain water, land for farming your own food and create your own telephone network if you somehow convince other people to participate in it.

>>9338670
socialism, capitalism, its all the same after the collapse. I'll save you a seat at the table.

>>9338691
Butthurt he got meme'd on kek

>>9338696
fair enough. though property rights could very easily prevent it.

>>9338698
nope nope and nope.

>>9338702
>IM NOT MAD!!!

textbook mad

>>9338706
dat kafkatrapping.

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>>9338702
nah but remember that time pepsi ended racism? capitalism was pretty good then.

>>9338572
No it isn't.

>>9338670
>that essay is one of the first things that got me onto being anti-socialist.
Why?

When Britain, unquestionably one of the originators, forerunners and leading exponents of international capitalism, were up against it in WWII, they responded with a massive increase in state led activity that included conscription, suspension of certain markets, rationing and confiscation on private property for the greater good.

If capitalism is such a perfect system, why didn't they take the capitalist extra strength multicolored pill and privatize their armed forces, deregulate their economy and encourage profiteering?

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I am glad retards like this guy claiming communism is government and private property held by the state is socilism exist

Its easier to justify my misantropy this way

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>>9338693
>you are just using it without paying for to the maintenance costs.
No. They want to charge me way more than they spend to maintain it. I don't care with what they run their servers they still make a fat steal. A bunch of energy is free, the whole energy crisis & climate change shit was started due to the exploitation of natural resources of the planet for economic growth/consumerism.

Man to be honest I'm going to keep Phreaking, Pirating and growing whatever the fuck I want. It has all to do with Capitalism since they want to control all those aspects of life, the collusion between government and economical interests in capitalism is the worst thing you could possibly go for because Capitalism is all about "private property" economical interest.

>communism
>state
you don't read books, the action of commonly owning the means of production doesn't requires a state. the spook of "privately" owning the means of production under the "legal" name of "Sam Walton (tm)" does require a state.

Now show me your utorrent.

>>9337597
t. facebook

>>9337428

None of them is an economist and neither are you, boi.

>>9338751
>you don't read books, the action of commonly owning the means of production doesn't requires a state
I have not seen a working system without state. I've seen socialist/wanna-be-communist centralist one party states though. So your statement seems more like an assumption or wishful thinking rather than a fact. Does it not require a state? How do you know?

>They want to charge me way more than they spend to maintain it.
That's a different issue then. It's not 'free' though like you originally claimed, which was my point.

>Man to be honest I'm going to keep Phreaking, Pirating and growing whatever the fuck I want.
Yeah whatever, I am not telling you what to do. Just be honest about what you are doing. Telephone lines, maintenance workers, system engineers, user support services, IT technicians and server technology aren't a natural resources. Smartphone antennas don't grow on trees, even if it might look that way sometimes.

>communist
>uses utorrent
Top kek as they say

come on libs, can't we just talk books and hate on /pol/ together? no one wants to covert you or take your stuff. just chill.

>>9338754
t. moron

>>9338780
>implying I don't want every white person on the face of the earth slaughtered right after their toothbrushes are confiscated

>>9338797
I was t every white bitch bred by big black cocks and I'm white myself.

>>9337492
Your house is personal property

>>9338797
wew lad, white peeps are another spook. we don't need it where we're going.

>>9338800
White = bourgeoise. Eliminate whitey and we are living in a utopia.

>>9338799
>live in communist utopia
>be poor as shit
>bake some wood chippings cookies in your kitchen
>try to trade them for potato peel soup
>whoops your house became your means of productions
>seized

Many such cases!

>>9337569
t. Venus Project
QUICK EVERYONE GIVE ME FREE STUFF.

>>9338253
Maybe because the system is so retarded that it always degenerate into authoritarianism? Where were the failsafe against Staline, Mao and Pol Pot?

>>9338801
nah, you're on some weird Otto Rahn tip. race isn't the case my dude.

>>9337783
this
only rural and suburban retards are capitalists, city people are all communists

>>9338801
If you want to get rid of White because bourgeoisie, you should start considering getting read of the Jews first.

>>9338801
Why not kill the proletariat instead this time? It's not like they are needed this time.

>>9338826
they're not leftcom, so I don't know man. you're shouting at cloud. the failsafe is simple, the proletariat sets up the penalty kick. councils score all the way down.

>>9337783
>>9338831
>people who vote left are communists
Not sure who is trolling who anymore

>>9338836
What about the koulaks?

>>9338718
>Unanswerable argument studiously ignored by rightists.

>>9338840
they fought with the leftcoms but we're not in a post-agrarian society, so they belong to history my friend.

>>9338771
>I have not seen a working system without state.
Exactly. You.

I have visited 2 communes they seemed to do well but lacked some resources since these things are put behind barriers by the state & capitalists. With good technological equipment you can pretty much sustain in a commune there forever.

>Does it not require a state? How do you know?
Read a fucking book on primitive communism. It's stateless, classless. Just individuals cooperating because it benefits them.

>>9338771
>It's not 'free' though like you originally claimed, which was my point.
Whats wrong with Phreaking through?

>>9338845
From my understanding, kulak was an insult that led to more class conflict. It transferred to the crooked capitalist to the hardworking farmers because of resentment (just like everyone is a nazi these days).

After arresting all the farmers, they tried working the farms and failed miserably because you need to be decently intelligent and hard working to operate a farm. Which led to massive starvation in Ukraine.

That's what you get when resentful people, who are open but not conscientious, try to one-up the farmers.


But that's fine because with one single application of the "post-agrarian" magic wand, all History is irrelevant.

>>9338854
I have seen communes too. Are you really comparing a small local commune surrounded by a functional capitalist democracy with a full blown large scale anarcho-communist nation (or whatever you want to call it)? Don't make a fool of yourself.

>How do you know?
>(I've) Read a fucking book
lol

>Whats wrong with Phreaking through?
You are using a service which costs money to maintain without paying for it. If that is wrong or not is a moral question and that's subjective, so what I think about it beyond the facts doesn't matter.

>>9338798
>t. white girl

>>9337663
>labor theory of value no real.
DELET

>>9338857
no, because lenin and the bolsheviks did that, not the left-communists. the kulaks fought with the leftcoms against lenin. however, the kulak class doesn't exist anymore and if they did, we leftcoms would embrace them. don't be dumb desu, you aint gonna catch me out.

wiki repost: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_uprisings_against_the_Bolsheviks

>>9338854
Is meritocracy classless?

>>9338865
That's the failsafe issue though. If Lenin and his bolsheviks can single-handedly crush everyone (hardworking farmers and leftcom), that's a shitty system.

>>9338875
lol. wew lad. having a smaller, underarmed army is a failure of a political philosophy? you gotta do better than that.

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>>9338861
>functional capitalist democracy
That they barely use. There were things like the ones I mentioned: Internet that they had to contract & telephony that they phreaked.

>nation
spook. anarcho-communist nation. anarcho-nation. nation, anarchy. you're really that stupid? those 2 words together!?!? lmao

>Don't make a fool of yourself.
You're did it to yourself. I didn't have to do anything.

>I have seen communes too.
Nah you haven't fuccboi you're lying. You have never seen one irl ever in your life, you're dwelling inside your room constantly thats why your views are so narrow.
>You are using a service which costs money to maintain without paying for it.
couldn't care less.

>>9338888
Let me expand on this:
if a violent revolution is what is needed to get rid of the capitalists, you then have to deal with people even more dangerous.

Then if you ask for Lenin and his Bolsheviks to help you get rid of the capitalists, then you have to deal with Lenin and his Bolsheviks, who by definition are more uncompromising violent and paranoiacs.

That seems a pretty big issue to me, but what do I know.

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>>9337663
>ancap
ROFLMAO

>>9338796
shots fired

>>9338897
you don't know very much because a violent revolution isn't what's needed. capitalism will inevitably collapse by itself. using post-ww1 russia as a case study is shoddy bait.

>>9338904
Objectivists aren't ancaps. And both are their own boss. Dipshit.

>>9338908
Virtually everyone would be a slave in an ancap society.

>>9337783
areas with a high population density (regardless of racial composition) tend to gravitate towards the left desu

>>9338864
Something is only worth what someone is willing to sacrifice for it. That's basic reality.

>>9338906
Communist China, Cambodia, North Korea, ... all went through a similar situation.

But they weren't "post-agrarian", that's right? Look I can debate like an ancom!

>>9338910
>negotiation is purely slavery
wew lad

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I like my economies of scale and cheap consumer goods, neither of which communism will be able to adequately provide.

Also, why is there a moral imperative to end "exploitation" and again?
It's not like the average worker would be any better off in a non-competitive communist system unless one considers significantly worse conditions of living for everyone a goal in itself. there's a reason Lenin introduced NEP desu.

I'd rather work 8 hours a day for a "capitalist pig" than to waste away for 16 a day hours in some field because the government mandated grain-goal wasn't reached this year, and as a consequence, your collective gets starved to death. Oh wait, that wasn't real communism, how silly of me.

>>9338891
>That they barely use. There were things like the ones I mentioned: Internet that they had to contract & telephony that they phreaked.
They use the army which defends them from other nations, they use the police which defends them from people who could just come and murder them all and rape their corpses and then take their land, they use modern medicine, they buy seeds and food when the harvest is bad, they use technology which they couldn't recreate or repair on the long run (such as electricity generators, anything made out of metal, computers, telephones), at least the people in your pic use fabricated clothing, they read books, they brush their teeth (I hope), they use modern building materials. Just some of the top of my head, probably way more than that.

If you want to know how life was like before the industrial revolution, just pick up a history book. Those have actual information about reality, not just untested hypotheses. You couldn't even sustain an area of the size of the US with just farming communes which have no industrialized agriculture, you would have to kill off the majority of people in the former nation before your anarchist wet dream could ever work.

>nation
>spook. anarcho-communist nation. anarcho-nation. nation, anarchy. you're really that stupid? those 2 words together!?!? lmao
Good that you ignored the stupid qualifier that I have added because I knew you would chimp out over the term.

>ad hominem
>ad hominem
>ad hominem
Yeah go fuck yourself

>>9338916
no they didn't. maoism and korean stalinism are different from marxist-lennism and it was marxists who liberated cambodia.

come with a stronger streams if your gonna piss in the pot.

>>9338925
>not assuming post-scarcity and full-blown automation when framing any economic issue
t. capitalist pig

Joking aside, it's strange to see communists blaming the struggle of life on capitalism (like the necessity of eating is slavery because capitalism).

>>9338714
Yes it is. Democracy is the individual subordinating their will to the majority. Ie letting someone plan their life. Ie central planning.

Because it is the single stupidest thing I've ever read.

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>>9338908
As if the argument makes a difference... s m h

>>9338925
its okay desu. we aint with lenin. we'll take care of you after the fall tho.

>>9338934
IT WAS NOT REAL COMMUNISM
How predictable. I really think that I could write a bot to argue like that.

oversocialization (ted)
ressentiment hydraulics (nietzsche)
opportunity to gain power in disorder (moldbug)

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>>9338918
in fact he is right. Negotiation can be done without the spook of private property existing. Negotiation & trade isn't exclusive to capitalism. It's an action.

Capitalism 100% needs a state to exist so "private property" can be enforced. Otherwise it's just a lie.

>>9338942
wew lad. pointing out the differences in wars does not mean "not real communism". its just not leftcom. I understand if you wanna save face and duck out tho. it's cool, catch you after the fall.

>>9338910
Literally no one would be, there would be no government.Your argument contradicts itself, because if "the capitalists" really ruled civilization, we would already be living in Ancapistan.

>>9338805
Small scale value creation is not a means of production which needs to be seized. Only that which exploits others' labour, such as a factory, is considered private property

>>9338951
>needs
Who decides that?

>>9338942
But it wasn't it's Fascism.

>>9337689
lmao you are a worker

>>9338913
Because all they know is free benefits without paying the costs... All city dwellers are living high on the labor of country folk... Of course they vote to maintain their parasitism...

>>9338946
No that's fine. In our free market economy with bitcoin, we'll teach our children that the failure of the starving ancom next to us is because it wasn't really leftcom.

>>9338961
not an argument. makes no sense, ancom is not leftcom lol. don't be dumb desu.

>>9338938
Agian, ancaps are there own boss. "Surplus labor" is just rent, in a competitive market a company couldn't exist with any unproductive labor. You don't understand any theory other than as a meme, you're lower than marxs penis warts.

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>>9338961

>>9338945
Trading is indeed an action, predicated on the existence of private and decentralized owners and not centralized entity like the State.

The State is an middleman (if not a complete parasite) on the profits of trading. Defending private property can be achieved through constant negotiation and ostracism. No State is needed fundamentally.

>>9337428
The same way there are catholics on this board right now. People seek echochambers because they're terrified of embracing the same uncertainty we all face, and they're willing to slow down our species to keep their believies.

>>9338942
> IT WAS NOT REAL COMMUNISM

Are leftists required to support all different incarnations of communism? Do you support all versions of capitalism?

>>9338979
>getting raped by someone who's grabbing your means of production
2easy

>>9338978
So that is just anarchism. Yea I know. No need for the "private property" spook there.

>>9338983
lit is really a commie echo chamber? wew lad. could of fooled me with all the fash lit talk.

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>>9338983
lit is far from a commie echo chamber.

>>9338987
The rapist is the smart dude who ignored the private property spook lul

>>9338975
sorry leftcom is not ancom is not communism is not [insert system]
Damn it's really like it wasn't real [insert system].

>>9338984
Roughly speaking, capitalism is the act of being able to negotiate as a private individual. If I can't negotiate something, it's not capitalism.
Commies usually accuse the current system of being capitalist, which it is not: public education, public welfare, centralized banks, taxation, etc ... are not capitalism because it's paid through taxation and the State.
This is really practical with capitalism because the line is clearly drawn in the sand. I've never understood what makes real [insert system] here when the Left starts splitting hair.

>>9338983
/lit/ is the furthest thing from an echo chamber. There are communists, capitalists, Catholics, atheists, plebs, patricians, etc. constantly clashing with each other. The day it becomes an echo chamber is the day I stop coming here.

>>9339007
so salty. again, not an argument.

>>9338945
Incorrect. Without real ownership, skin in the game, rational prices can't be created. Without the chance of losing something, you're really spending someone elses money.

Incorrect. Private property is not possible with states. The entity that can tax property, ie collect rent on it, is it's true owner. And no one really owns the state, it's a corporation with employees only. The modern nation state is unowned, the Crown was assigned by the nobility, dictators serve as long as the army doesn't kill them, and so on. All states, every kind, through out all of history, are collectivist, enforcing a collective property norm: socialism.

>>9339015
Can you make a list (or link) the different kind of communist-derived systems?
I'd like to create some kind of pokemon game with these. It's time to educate people on what is real [insert system] here.

>>9338989
See my comment here:
>>9339018

Steiner was a right wing propertarian. Dips that call everything a spook obviously have no idea what it even means.

>>9339023
why? you could just read about what happened in russia and cambodia and korea and china, then you wouldn't be such a sook when you get called on your false equivalencies.

>>9339018
good post

Argument ad wikipediam

cap·i·tal·ism
an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

>b-b-but Capitalism needs a State to enforce private property
It's like they don't understand that capitalism is necessarily without State because it's individualism opposed to collectivism.

>>9339029
Sorry, I learned to disregard "non post-agrarian" society when talking seriously about [insert system].

Jokes aside, I'm 300 pages into Gulag Archipelago and have Killing Fields next. The only thing that seems to come out is that anything argued on the basis of Marxism is a disaster beyond human understanding.

>>9337458
Tell that to the kulaks

>>9339043
wew lad. so your done? you don't see commies being disingenuous linking ancap with rand or chicago school. you just weaken your position when you do that.

>>9339050
left-coms fought with the kulaks against lenin. we covered this, read the thread. do you guys just have some tedious list of things to bring up or something? don't be dumb desu.

>>9339058
That's literally happening in this very thread...

>>9339064
...I was speaking for myself

>>9339070
And you were wrong...

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The one thing that defines the socialist is the incredible amount of envy that they possess. First, there is the fact that so many people refuse to accept the reality that those who accumulate wealth in a capitalist society do so simply by pleasing large numbers of their fellow citizens with the products or services that they sell. In terms of making money, the movie star outstrips the philosopher. This often creates a lifelong feeling of envy and hatred towards capitalism and capitalists in the mind of the "philosopher." Many people also insist that they should be judged by some kind of absolute standard (defined by the government, of course) as opposed to the dollar "votes" of their fellow citizens. Consequently, they are frustrated and envious of the more successful among them. The less successful (including the lazy or incompetent) often express hate and enmity against all those who superseded them. Political demagogues take advantage of such people by promising them something for nothing ("free" healthcare! "free" education! "free" you name it!) in the name of egalitarianism.

This board is filled with self styled philosophers and academics. Is it really a surprise that they're Marxist?

>>9339093
>le armchair philosophy
I expected better out of 4chan's "smartest" board, but I guess you're all rambling dumbfucks.

>>9339105
>le armchair philosophy
That's Marxism to a T though.

>>9339105

I don't know what you mean by armchair philosophy.

Just out of curiousity, is there another board or forum out there, that's not reddit, where I can read what true marxist are bitching about?

>>9339007
Whats the difference between "private" individual & individual? lmao

whats so special about the "private" spook that you love so much?

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>>9339007
>Roughly speaking, capitalism is the act of being able to negotiate as a private individual. If I can't negotiate something, it's not capitalism.

>>9339118
>le people hate capitalism because of muh envy
highschool analysis senpai

>>9339148

Well you've certainly changed my opinion on the matter.

>>9339125
yeah, the politbureau

>>9339158
glad to hear it desu

>>9339082
lol. so I've conflated you with other forms of capital? don't be dumb desu.

>>9339093
>The one thing that defines the [X] is the incredible amount of envy that they possess.
You. Stop projecting rofl.

>>9339032
LOL define "private property" please.

Socialists like to argue that under capitalism the rich get richer and the poor get poorer; these days, it's usually a matter of presenting statistics on "income distribution" to show that the top earners' "share of national income" has gone up, while the bottom 10 or 20 percent of income earners have seen their share stay the same or go down. To get to this conclusion you have to assume that the same people are somehow stuck in an economic rut at the bottom of the income scale. Economists Michael Cox and Richard Alm exposed this by citing a University of Michigan study that tracked more than 50,000 Americans for three decades to discern the extent of economic mobility in America. they found that very few people are "stuck" at the bottom of the economic ladder; most rise quickly. Among their findings:

-More than three-fourths of families in the bottom fifth of income distribution in 1975 had made their way up to the two highest income quintiles in 1991.

-The poorest families made the largest gains. Those who started in the bottom 20 percent in 1975 had an inflation-adjusted gain in annual income of 27,745 by 1991; those who started in the top 20 percent in 1975 also improved, but only by 4,354

-Less than 1 percent of the sample population remained in the bottom 20 percent during the 1975-1991 period

-More than half of the families who were in the bottom 20 percent in 1975 made it to a higher bracket within four years

The greatest engine for economic mobility, progress, and opportunity is capitalism; and there is no way that socialists can get around their own history of economic stagnation and failure.

Source: Michael Cox and Richard Alm, Myths of Rich and Poor (New York:Basic Books, 1993), 70-75

>>9339176
>>9339173
>>9339169
>>9339162
>>9339160
>>9339148

You can stop samefagging now.

>>9339018
whats "real ownership" explain please. this is hilarous.

>>9339180
only 2 of those was me. explain these dumb imaginary concepts you pulled out of your ass please.

>>9339180
man, milking the balls now huh.

Whats wrong with marxists OP

Marx was a pretty fucking smart guy.

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>>9339032
>>9339018
lol

>>9339178
>1993
oh shit nigger

>>9339219
Isn't your body your property?. You don't let everyone use it without your permission.

>>9339232
>You don't let everyone use it without your permission.
The fact I was born out of this world to inhabit a body of mine directly says I have no real power over mine body. I never aksed for this

To all of the ancoms in this thread, how do you intend to sustain your stateless communism?

Assuming you work off a system of interconnected workers councils, will there be a central organising force?

Genuinely curious, know nothing about anarcho communism, but I know a lot of Stalinists/Leninists and wish someone would just kill them all

>>9338253
Yeah because without a massive authoritarian gov't you can't stop emergent capitalist interactions form happening all the time. Even Lenin had to come to terms with this when he implemented NEP in Russia.

>>9338293
me on the left

>>9339254
our co-ops are doing fine. thanks for asking desu.

>>9339264

What co-ops are you talking about?

>>9339266
we were with ICT and ICOM now IOC. co-op bookshop desu.

>>9339279

This entirely unreadable and google tells me nothing about any of these organisations. Please elaborate.

>>9339288
lol. I'm giving my coop out over 4chan desu, if you can't google, its on you desu.

even if communism worked I wouldn't want to live under it

>>9339304
>I'm giving my coop out over 4chan desu
I realize this is bait but these sentences still make me angry

good thing no one is asking you to

>>9339312
In Soviet Russia, Communism lives under YOU!

>>9339288
According to this shitty commie book ICT stands for 'Information and communications technology'

https://books.google.de/books?id=-yTYP2RKRG8C&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

>>9339329

>ICT coop

So you've got a social media coop then

>>9339346
ICOM could refer to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icom_Incorporated

But radio sounds outdated as fuck, are commies that far behind?

>>9339363

>commie radio show

Yeah that's hard to manage as a co-op amiright guys

Debt has done nothing wrong.

>>9338293
I'd throw libertarians and ancaps below stormfags.They truly are some of the dumbest people I've talked with, completely out of touch with the world.

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>>9339025
If you mean Striner? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>9339454
Yeah, just like marxists

>>9338718
Defining capitalism as some sort of laissez faire fight between private, public and government for all actions in state, government, politics and actions is pretty crazy anon

>>9339473
I don't think it's legal fiction. When I was a kid I had my toys. I didn't know about law then. I wasn't even told about "private property" concept. But I definitely called them my toys, and people had to ask me (my brother) if they were allowed to use them.

And I knew nothing about law, legalities, because I was six years old but had a concept of "private owning" in my head?

Explain that Stirnerheads pls.
genuinely interested if this isnt property idea

they can't even figure out an acronym. feels bad man.

>>9339254
>He doesn't know that Lenin was trying to bypass the transition from a feudal society to a socialist one
Do you people even know why he created vanguardism?

>>9339510
>tell that to the kulaks cuck

>>9339507
Oh it's Indoor Outdoor Communication, I thought nobody cared anymore.

>>9339510
Pretty sure he was trying to stop literally all of Russia from starving to death, as they were during war communism

>>9339007
>Commies usually accuse the current system of being capitalist, which it is not: public education, public welfare, centralized banks, taxation, etc ... are not capitalism because it's paid through taxation and the State.

"IT'S NOT REAL CAPITALISM."

wtf are we living under then??

>>9339532
try harder.

>>9339567
International Olympic Committee???

>>9337762
How on earth is it not the opposite?

>>9339577
your brain on ancap

>>9339502
First of all, there is a distinction between private and personal property. Personal property is what you personally use, i.e. your toys. Private property is what you don't personally use yet somehow owns it, i.e. stocks, ownership of factories etc. Marxists and Striner argee that private property is stupid and should be fought against.

Why is it legal fiction? Private property rights are only enforced by the State. Hence the state is an obstacle that must be opposed. Socialists and anarchists differ on what to do with the state here but that is for another time.

What separates Striner from anarchists and socialists is who then truly owns property. Socialists would say the people who uses it, Striner would say the people who claims it via force. Both answers are not mutually exclusive but still distinct.

tl:dr those toys are your PERSONAL property, and Striner says it will remain so until you can't exert control over it

>>9339502
You never seen a kid start crying over his siblings using some of their shared toys that he claimed as his? That's them making it their personal property, even if the whole thing was actually owned by their dad, legally.

>>9339633
Private property can't be what I personally own but don't use? Why?

>>9339675
It being a fictional human construct, spooks, the fact that deep inequality of power and wealth exists in the world since people use it to leech surplus value from the people that do? Take your pick

>>9337609
why is that funnny to you?

your life is nothing to those in power

>>9339697
But personal property is a spook too

>>9339747
Sure but it far less destructive

>>9339776
If a thing being or not being a spook is actually irrelevant, then why for the love of god do you have to bring it up all the time?

>>9337428
Marxists need to leave. /lit/ is a reactionary board.
Also, stop false flagging.

>/lit/ is a reactionary board.
This.

>>9339806
>>9339789

>>9339787
Striner is opposed to all property, personal and private. In the war of all vs all, only the go gets to decide what is his/her.

>>9339811
yeah and i've decided my property is private property.

>>9339633
>Marxists and Striner argee that private property is stupid and should be fought against.

No they don't.

>>9339560
socialism.

>>9339580
communism is socialism based on resentment, fascism is socialism built on duty.

>>9338451

So edgy.

>>9340573

That wasn't edgy at all.