Bible discussion thread

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>>9308935
>favorite character
Pic related

David

>>9309120
Kropotkin? In a Phrygian cap?

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>tfw when going out of fedora atheism and get on to the new testament and get really interested and go visit the christian square at the old city of Jerusalem and get all the comfy vibes from the variety of people gathered around the holy sepulchre and meet an Italian bro monk I already met in the Church of the Visitation last summer and talk to him about religion and he takes me to a chilly inner room and show me cool maps of the place and stuff

Elisha is my guy. Some kids made fun of him for being bald and he made a bear kill them. Forty-two kids dead.

2 Kings 2:23-24

Cain is pretty cool in his own way.

Like a manchild. Lying to a creator God. Talking back to creator God.

And negotiating his own punishment with the creator God.

>>9310743

Respect to David too, and Jesus, and John.

Actually my favorite character is Job (Hiob in german). It's a truly fascinating story.
It starts out as a bet between the "devil"(not in our modern sense) and god, deals with issues of justice and faith and why bad things happen to good people.

>>9310788
lol I was going to say him too.

Jezebel is neat too. First defenestration in history I can think of.

Absalom's rise and the civil war v. David-- Achitophel's fall. Solomon's youth. Story of Ruth. The odd stories in the Book of Judges. In the NT the weird Acts of the Apostles-- back to the OT: most all Genesis.

>>9310834
I think this story displays perfectly how unrewarding being righteous according to god is, and how unjust and uncaring is Jehova.

>>9310881
>missed the point

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one"
Romans 3:10

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

Isaiah 64:6

>>9310881
Unjust? Impossible. 'Just' --the 'most useless word in the English language' as per a thread on this board yesterday! Un-what? The Supreme Master of the Universe can do what He will with His toys. We wrack the Earth in a similar fashion. Plus, over time, it becomes apparent that the human brain requires disaster piled upon disaster. Escape is vital to our sense of well-being, for instance. To quote Judy Collins, we 'really don't know life, at all.' And it's a good thing we don't!

>>9308935
When Hosea takes his wife. It gave me hope because I realized it might not be so bad to marry a roastie

>>9310881

The point of Job was "Satan" confronted God to say "Job is only faithful to you because you have blessed him with good fortune". The story was to become an example for all time, not just the one time with Job. God said to Satan "fine, take my reigns and do what you want with Job, as long as you don't kill him" this is a common motif of the testaments, as Joseph and the lions, Jonah and the whale, or Jesus and the Pharisees. All those of faith were at some point pitted against great misfortune, danger, or evil.

Satan wrought against Job to turn him from God, whilst God sat back to prove a lesson to Satan, and what resulted was the continuing of Job's faith despite the misfortune brought against him by Satan.

Job was rewarded ten-fold for his despair and faith, and God laid a template for his followers for throughout time, that is to say life is a test of faith and Satan will challenge you and you will meet misfortune, all of which should be met by faith.

Echoes again in the words of Jesus who says "fear not who can destroy your body" but "fear him who can destroy your soul in hell" "what in the world is worth your soul" etc.

>>9308935
My favorite verse is:
>And God created the Earth and made everyone really angry and is still considered a bad choice to this day

>>9311074

That's not a verse, but you should find peace.

Ecclesiastes.

Most patrician book in the Bible. Wraps up poorly but I respect its approach to 2000 BC nihilism (or whatever millennium it was)

>>9308935

No Catholics for Paul?

>>9311187
There's a Judy Collins reference supra; that's kind of Catholic. But let me be the first: David, Jesus, Paul.

Legion the misunderstood meth addict

>>9311457

Are you a Catholic, may I ask?

Mary was pretty tight
id fucking rape her
>thinks she pure because shes a virgin
not for long

One of my favorite stories is at the last supper when Jesus washes the disciples' feet.

Here is God almighty, come down in the likeness of human flesh, and on the night before his unimaginable suffering on the cross, he puts on a servant's towel (he's pretty much naked) and washes the feet of the dunderheads he has so lovingly taken care of for the last 3 years.

Favorite character is probably Peter. Dude was mad passionate, had a good heart, but just kept fucking up. I relate. Also David, for the same reasons.

>>9311467
Or correctly understood meth addict. You ever been around long time meth users? It IS like they're possessed.

I could never get into it. Characters all seemed flat and unreal.

But I've never really gotten into ancient literature.

A few favorite verses on my favorite character in the Bible:

Part of Isaiah 14:
For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’

Part of Ezekiel 28:
You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.


There is some speculation on who this is referring to, but I like to think they are the same guy. Also, are there any verses like this that I don't know about? I haven't studied the Bible intensively yet.

>>9311546

There's good humanity in the bible. Even 'let it rain fire' Elijah, asking God to end his life after fleeing Ahab. He literally lay down to die in the desert but God sent messengers with food to say, arise and eat, for the journey ahead is great! And great it was.

>>9311627

This is a reference to the falling star, the dawn star? Some say arch Michael ("Who is like God?"), others Lucifer.

How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

Dare I say, you and I know we are edging dangerous territory.

>>9311490
Raised Episcopal in an entirely Catholic quarter of town--

>>9310988
the point of him marrying a hooker was to represent how Israel's idolatry to God was like Israel prostituting themselves out in the way a married hooker would.

Ezekiel and a lot of the Old Testament compares Israel's chasing after foreign Gods being like a man's wife prostituting herself out to other men. It is disgusting, is it not?

>>9311947

You're a sharp bean. I like this.

>>9310788
Sampson is pretty cool as well. Beating people to death with a jaw bone is pretty hardcore, plus lighting their crops on fire

>>9310901
>>9310938
>>9310995
Good stuff guys. Keep it up

>>9311665
It refers to lucifer which means "morning star" or "bringer of the dawn"

>>9310772
I was under the impression that Phrygian caps were what the smurfs wore.. and the sans-culottes too, of course.

>>9312055

It is worrisome for those whom wish not to conflate Lucifer with Jesus; in Revelations Jesus appears in a vision and refers to himself as the morning star.

I see no issue with Jesus having been the fallen star 'cast' down to earth. In essence, his message of sin and forgiveness only comes through stronger by that. There are those who conflate Jesus with God himself, so the two lines of thought vary wildly in approach.

"If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand?…"

Interesting line, however.

>>9311522
I'll kick your ass in real life, faggot.

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SAMSON
A
M
S
O
N

>>9311117
>He fell for the Ecclesiastes meme

>>9312138
All the info regarding Lucifer as being cast down from heaven comes from the apocryphal books. There's nothing in the protestant bible about the origin of Satan or anybody at all being cast out of Heaven. Jesus certainly wasn't exiled from Heaven, read John 3:16.

Your theory falls apart if you actually read the bible. :)

Lot's wife. She looked back and I love her for it

>>9312164
That's actually kind of sweet. Marcel too looked back....

>>9312126
Anatolians (Phrygia found there of course) was considered by the Greeks to be like Eden. All civilizations came from there. This is where humankind was during its golden age under Uranus/Ouranos.
Their cultural dress is most famous for this stiff red cap (Scythians even wore them) The Trojans are often depicted wearing them.

I haven't read anything specifically but the revolutionaries adopted the custom, and as a symbol it remains in France, the US and Haiti. I guess it was to draw the connection to the golden age

Also odd that Nikolas was recognized as a saint by the western church around the late 1800s. He came from Anatolia you know? This modern depiction of Santa I think looks a lot like Marx and/or Kropotkin, but whatever. The ideology is what strikes me more.
As for the Smurfs, bearded Papa Smurf with the red cap... It's a conspiracy isn't it? I love it. It's enough to make you want to keep Saturnalia

>>9312160

Isaiah 14:12 - How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

Revelation 22:16 - I, Jesus, have sent My angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the bright Morning Star.

And to say Jesus was exiled from heaven would be incorrect, because something good and holy and proper was cast down, for reasons of iniquity, and Jesus was born on earth for reasons of divinity to talk specifically about sin.

>>9310787
Convert already you heathen

deus vult

>>9312213
>I haven't read anything specifically but the revolutionaries adopted the custom, and as a symbol it remains in France, the US and Haiti. I guess it was to draw the connection to the golden age
It's a confusion of hats. It used be customary to give freedmen a hat called a pileus during manumission. Phrygian got confused with this since they also wore soft caps which were still in production. The French Revolution just picked up on it being a symbol of having being liberated.

>>9312264

Ironically (or not) you sound like a militant atheist.

salome. what the fuck was her whore mother thinking?

>>9308935
kys faggot cuck

>>9312281

Not much. Do you think Baptist got his head back hm?

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>>9312295

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>>9312281
>Judith: Seduces and cuts off her prey's head
>Heroin

>Salome: Reputation ruined by some clerics slanderous porn writing
>Gets an Oscar Wilde play

>>9312311

It's a shame she can't get more attention, really. Still, Wilde's wit was actually something.

>>9312213
Well? We haven't really moved, we're all of us still under o Ouranos semantically, at least, but yes, I'm familiar with the myth. Also, I knew Nicholas was a Turk but didn't know recognition came so late (Jean d'Arc not till the early 1920's!).

Keeping Saturnalia wouldn't be any good unless a Mardi Gras sized mass kept it with you. Were this a literary confessions thread I would here reveal my secret keeping of Candlemas. I buy a zillion tea candles that day, very quietly bless them, light about twenty or so at sunset, then do something really exciting for the remainder of the evening like read, and maybe drink.

>vive the subjunctive! a bas the woodchucks!

>>9312344
>we're all of us still under o Ouranos semantically
Naw, man.

Ovid's Golden Age
>This was the Golden Age that, without coercion, without laws, spontaneously nurtured the good and the true. There was no fear or punishment: there were no threatening words to be read, fixed in bronze, no crowd of suppliants fearing the judge’s face: they lived safely without protection. No pine tree felled in the mountains had yet reached the flowing waves to travel to other lands: human beings only knew their own shores. There were no steep ditches surrounding towns, no straight war-trumpets, no coiled horns, no swords and helmets. Without the use of armies, people passed their lives in gentle peace and security. The earth herself also, freely, without the scars of ploughs, untouched by hoes, produced everything from herself. Contented with food that grew without cultivation, they collected mountain strawberries and the fruit of the strawberry tree, wild cherries, blackberries clinging to the tough brambles, and acorns fallen from Jupiter’s spreading oak-tree. Spring was eternal, and gentle breezes caressed with warm air the flowers that grew without being seeded. Then the untilled earth gave of its produce and, without needing renewal, the fields whitened with heavy ears of corn. Sometimes rivers of milk flowed, sometimes streams of nectar, and golden honey trickled from the green holm oak.

This we do not have. Not unless we can have anarchism implemented

So I'm currently reading Genesis. My plan is to read Genesis and Exodus, skip to and read the Books of Wisdom, and then read the whole New Testament. If I want I'll go back and read books in the OT that I find interesting. Is this a good approach?

Also, why did Rebekah tell Jacob to lie to Isaac?

>>9312413
My meaning was flatter-- the heavens, the sky. So long as it and prepositions continue to mean, we're under it. Absolutely no one appreciates a Dickinsonian turn to flat accuracy, so I'm not really surprised I was denied the obvious.

>>9312003
yeah but he still has three kids and ends up remembered long after his death

cant really ask for more than that

>>9312419
the seemingly weird morality of the Old Testament makes a lot more sense once you read the New. Tons of theology regarding the Law, the old and new covenants, etc.

>>9310824
I preached a sermon on Cain. With a little bit from Stienbeck, you realize Cain got a raw deal. But at the same time, God told tim he had a choice. To do right or to do wrong. His sacrafice offered was leftover trimmings aganist Able's firstborn calf and fat portions.
>>9312419
I'd also reccommend Daniel and Jonah. Both are short. Both are worth reading, particually comparing chapters 1-2 of Jonah to 3-4. The parallels are intersting.

Did anyone else have a giggle when Joseph enslaved all those Egyptians by hoarding food?

>>9312702
Thanks, I'll read those too.

Where do these extra details about Cain's sacrifice come from since it's not mentioned in the Bible?

>>9312845
I use study Bibles and Biblical commentarys. Different ones will say different things. They can usally be divided by ones written by a publisher like HCSB or ESV, or by a single author, like John Mcarthur, Scofeild, or Matthew Henry. Usally publishers show a "safer" docturnal answer or show a few ideas. Indidvidual authors are more likely to be opinion of that author. You also have to take into account different denomations views on things. I am Southern Baptist, so there are things that I believe and preach that mostly line up with with that doctrine. Same with arthors and publishers.

So in the text I studied, one says that God accepts ceral or grain offerings according to Mosaic law, so the problem is in Cain's heart. The verse says "In the course of time Cain presented some of the land's produce as an offering to the Lord." GEN 4:3 (HCSB). The emphasis is on the word "some". The thought is that immidenly, Cain becomes furious when his sacrafice is not accepted. While its not stated, it infered that Cain was not sacaficing his best. It's only a sacarfice if its something you will miss. And from not sacraficing his best, his heart is not in his sacarfice.

>>9312979
Are there any big differences between historical documents and early bibles compared to modern ones?

Ive seen some people post about early documents of Mark and others having different endings or missing stuff.

Sirach and David the Psalmist are my favorites.

Favorite event is when a left handed man killed a man so fat, his bet swallowed up his 20in sword.

Been reading 1John 1:9 lately and need to go to back to Confessions.
T. Orthodox

>>9313370
which bible do you use?

>>9313363
I'm not going to lie, I don't thing I can answer your question to the fullest extent. I know one can still access the origianal greek and hebrew of the Bible. But that involves learning dead forms of both languages. People do it though. I once met a homeless man who had the time, so he had learned hebrew and was working on greek. We talked about kabbalism and other out there ideas in relation to Christianity. Well, he more lectured. But I learned alot.

On Mark the ending is debated. The differance in language is appareny and the last 11 verses don't appear in the oldest manuscrips in Mark. The Bible as we know it was hammered out at the council of Nicea. This was in 312AD. They were all debating what was scripture and what wasn't, as well as the divine nature of Christ.

>>9312979

"And God had not respect for Cain, and for Cain's offering"

It's right in there! Was there a familial feud going at the time also? Something to do with marriages, passion, and heartache?

Who was Cain's father?

>>9312419
That's a terrible idea. The least you should read are the following:

Genesis
Exodus
Samuel 1,2
Job
Psalms
Proverbs
Isaiah

>>9310988

kek
of all the women in the Bible...

>>9308935
So a bit off topic but since you guys seem to know the bible I'll ask : I read (on Wikipedia tbqh) that the authors of the New Testament in the earlier version were pretty clear about their intentions, they were mostly telling a story (as opposed to telling historical facts) to share their message and not really interested in making a "true" story, so what do you think about that? Have you hear about this theory?

PS I don't want to start a fight between pro vs anti, just a comfy discussion about the authors intentions

>>9313766
PS n2 : I meant (vs presenting the New Testament as historical facts) I'm not asking if it's true or not but rather if the authors present the stories as historical (true) or not

>>9313766

That's the Islamic point of view, correct.

>>9313699
Go back a few chapters. Cain is only the second generation. His father Adam was created on the 6th day of creation. Adam walked with God and became lonley without a companion. So God created Eve. Then comes Ch 3 The fall of man. Then the Birth of Cain and Abel. Then the first murder.

Like I said, in my study, the issue is with Cain and his heart. Cain's parents both walked with God and Cain got a personal pep talk from God. God wanted the best outcome for Cain. But Cain had the choice. This is what Steinbeck talks about in East of Eden. Timshel- Thou Mayest. One has a choice to do right or wrong.

The story of Jonah, and I mean the whole story.

I like that he gets genuinely pissed at God being apparently arbitrary, and then God actually explains Himself.

>>9313848

Sin croucheth at your door. There is route or interpretation says the "snake" fathered Cain, and so was the rivalry between Cain and Abel (not to mention a diverse gene pool) and likewise the fire and miser found in Cain.

One could then say Cain was the redeeming factor for sin in the world.

But your rabbis wouldn't have this common knowledge, for reasons, I'm sure, you can tell. Likewise the discussion of Cain's whereabouts today, seeing he's exiled to earth till 'enders.

>>9313807
I'm not sure if you're baiting or what, can you elaborate?

>>9312979
>In the course of time Cain presented some of the land's produce as an offering to the Lord.
That's interesting, I've never seen it translated like that. For comparison, here's the take of some formal translations that I use

nJPS
>In the course of time, Cain brought an offering to the LORD from the fruit of the soil

NRSV
>In the course of time Cain brought to the LORD an offering of the fruit of the ground

NASB
>So it came about in the course of time* that Cain brought an offering to the LORD of the fruit of the ground.
>* Lit: at the end of days

Most are taking it to just mean his offering is from the ground, and don't specify if it's a full or partial offering.

>>9313928

"Then We sent following their footsteps Our messengers and followed [them] with Jesus, the son of Mary, and gave him the Gospel. And We placed in the hearts of those who followed him compassion and mercy and monasticism, which they innovated; We did not prescribe it for them except [that they did so] seeking the approval of Allah . But they did not observe it with due observance. So We gave the ones who believed among them their reward, but many of them are defiantly disobedient."

>>9313935
Which translation do you prefer, anon?

Excluding Christ: David, Josiah, Jephthah.

I really like Apollos of Alexandria as well.

>>9314614
I'm illiterate sorry I can't see how this is relevant to my question?

>>9314763

The quote posted did align with your views. I recommend you learn to read lest you continue to ask silly questions.

>>9312297
i think he's probably okay with it being cut off. he's probably still wearing a hair shirt in heaven.
>>9312311
to be fair, judith gets a lot of annoying fans, like Tool. and salome's mom is so fucked up that most people wouldn't want to delve into her story because an audience will refuse to believe a mother would get her daughter to sexually arouse her husband so she can get revenge for being rejected by a boyfriend. that's just not a story that plays well any way, and especially not in the current climate.

>>9314635
I find the NRSV easy to read, and it's the most commonly used version in academia, so must be pretty accurate (I can't check because I don't know any greek or hebrew). I like it the best if I just want to read some of Bible and mostly understand it.

nJPS is a translation of the Masoretic Text by jewish scholars, so it doesn't reflect the earliest manuscripts, but it's perfect if you want to know what the Tanakh says. Even textual corruptions are translated, with a possible correction in a footnote. Also it has good notes on hebrew wordplay.

NASB is if you want a more traditonal Christian rendering in English, e.g. Isaiah 7:14 with "virgin" rather than "young woman". From what I've read of both, I think it's in the same ballpark as the ESV, but just edges out the ESV for me because of the latter's constant updates (4 versions in circulation already!), the latest of which was criticised on certain points.

I like NABRE too for the take of Catholic scholars, it's pretty easy to read and has good footnotes, which take a surprisingly historical-critical approach.

>>9313375
I use the Orthodox Study Bible

>>9312160
>>9312138
Luke 10:18

>[Jesus] replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

When Cain was exiled who were those other tribes he went to? I thought only Adam, Eve, Cain, and Able were on Earth.

>>9315241

>"In 1st person. It was mad goys"

>>9315277
Genesis only says he had a wife, there's no information about who she was. Probably one of Adam and Eve's daughter's if you want an explanation, but it's a myth at the end of the day, the meaning is more important than making sense.

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>>9315277
Also, you forgot Seth, the third son who's the ancestor of everyone through Noah.

>>9315277

Married his sister and built cities, weapons with which to hunt, musical instruments etc.

All trying to replace God, whom turned his face from Cain.

>>9315323

Cain's line definitely still exists, and a fool would say otherwise with concreteness.

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Oh shit, is this the bible thread from /pol/?

What do you guys think of Saint Augustine?

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Not a biblical character, but Luther was badass.

>>9315350
>Cain's line definitely still exists, and a fool would say otherwise with concreteness.
Didn't the flood wipe out everyone except Noah, his sons and their families?
Maybe if a female descent from Cain was a wife of one of Noah's sons it might still be around.

>>9315392

It's plausible, or perhaps some survived the flood in some way.

Either way, you'll find in plenty sects the line of Cain thriving well and good. As said, they are ones with the fire.

>>9315414
The LDS think that Cain himself is still wandering the earth.

Why did David's wife despise him after he saw him dancing for the lord? Never understood this.

>>9315460
I think you got it mixed up, they used to preach that Africans are descendants of Cain. They do believe that 3 ancient American jews are still wandering the Earth though.

>>9315358
>is this the bible thread from /pol/?
NO

>What do you guys think of Saint Augustine?
A genius

>>9315491
His loss of royal dignity in her opinion.
She (like her father Saul) had no regard for the Ark of God, and had no pious feelings when it was returned to Zion.

What was David's meat was Michal's poison. What was sweeter than honey to David was gall and wormwood to Michal. At the despicable sight of David dancing she spat at him, and sank back in her seat with all he'll in her heart.
Michal is a divine looking glass for all angry and outspoken wives.

>>9315460
>>9315495

The LDS wouldn't allow African American's to join them because, as above, they believed dark skin to be descendant of Cain. Kind of counter to the thought of God, and very disrespectful to both Cain and God. The LDS now do allow African Americans to join them(though I doubt they'd want to).

Ancient American Jews seems like a joke.

>>9313766

One thing you must always consider while reading the bible is genre. Modern history tends to be recorded in very precise and literal ways so it's easy to make the assumption that this was how it was always done, but in ancient times, for example if a historian was recording a speech, he may change some words around to make it flow better. This is why some gospels that are recording the same event where Jesus speaks might use different verbiage. Both are recording precisely what Jesus is asserting even though the quotes and words are different. Many people do this same thing without realizing it today, like if you were watching a long speech and somebody asked you what it was about, you would probably give a very brief but accurate summary with some quotation instead of an hour recitation.

Another thing to consider is the audiences that the gospels were intended to reach. Mark was evangelizing to the Romans so he tailored his recording of history to appeal to them. This is why Mark is the most action packed gospel, because Romans were the leaders of the world and they respected strength. In a sense the authors are definitely telling a story with their histories but that doesn't mean the things they assert are untrue, because that's how history was recorded at the time.

>>9315806
I went to an LDS service recently and there 4 black people in the congregation. Seems they're past the racism stigma.

The Book of Mormon is still pretty racist, the bad guys get cursed with dark skin so the good guys can recognise them. Still, Joseph Smith was actually egalitarian for his day, he allowed blacks to join and at least one entered the priesthood. Bringham Young set the church's path in a lot of ways and that included the doctrine of Africans bearing the mark of Cain.

>>9315806
Oh and about the three immortal jews:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Nephites

>>9315920

That's what I said. They do now allow African Americans to join.

And yes, that does sound quite racist, stupid, and not in line with God's will, unfortunately. You set some intrigue, but I'm not inclined to ask you anything more about Mormonism.

>>9313935
HCSB, NIV, NLT all say "some".
>>9314851
I am not familiar with NJPS, but if its from the masoretic text, the Interlinear bible is the masoretic hebrew text, the greek NT, and a direct word for word translation of the languages. NJPS sounds like a good one to pick up for study to have a traditional Jewish perspective. I prefer HCSB for readability, its the southern baptist standard. I like ESV as well for readabilty. I'm not too familiar with NRSV. One of my youth has an NABRE from her Catholic upbringing and the footnotes always surprise me. If she has an interesting footnote, I usually let her read it out loud, to give a different perspective on the discussion.

>>9315277
It says he wanders for a long time. In conjunction with the lifespan antediluvian (before the flood), it is speculated that he wandered, found one of his sisters and started a family. Only the line of Seth was obedient in God's teachings. All 10 generations pre flood lived very, very long lives. It would be assumed Cain have a similar lifespan.

>>9314996
Which translation is that?

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>>9316007

If he's talking about this book it's NKJV.

>>9316032

The best is to read the bible in a Jewish context. I recommend the Complete Jewish Bible, as the NT revolves around Jewish concepts, such as the ruach hakodesh, and tsuris.

>>9308935
The story of Cain and Abel. Its the most basic depiction of human nature in relation to God in literature.

>>9313883
>>9316206
Right after I preached on Cain and Abel, I preached on Jonah. They happen to be 2 of my favorite stories in the Bible, along with The Faith of the Centurion. What is interesting about both Cain and Jonah to me is that they are angry, Cain is mad his offering isn't accepted. I think many people give Cain a bad rap. He let his anger get the better of him, as well as his pride. But we are just as human as he was.

Jonah is mad because the Assyrians deserve damnation. These were a people who nailed as many bodies to a pole as they could and called it a good time. They were one of the bloodiest empires in history, one that had unbroken historical records of kings lineages that stretch back around 1700 years before their fall in 612 BC. God uses the vine, the worm and the scorching wind to show how much Jonah cared about the little things, and that God cared as even more about the Assyrians then he did the animals. But the Assyrians repented, on order of the king, and God showed his mercy. Like Cain, God gave Jonah a personal pep talk. But we never see Jonah's reply. As far as we know, like Cain, Jonah is still angry. There is no proof, but that is why those two are favorites of mine. The individuals are very human and flawed, just like us.

>>9316076
While this seems sensible, one of the points in the New Testament is that the Jews don't fucking understand anything. Trying to filter it through post-Second Temple Judaism is ridiculous.

>>9316447

The Pharisees were badly behaved, but Jesus knew Jewish lore inside and out. He was the root of the jews, he was the offspring of the Jews.

He basically pointed at people who assumed themselves good and decent and said "You're actually not good people. You're hyprocrites".

>>9316206
>>9316428
Interesting point about Cain and Abel some people not know: there is a translation issue regarding Genesis 4:7. Here is the KJV and then the RSV (representative of any modern translation here)

>(KJV) If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

>(RSV) If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is couching at the door; its desire is for you, but you must master it.

Notice the change of pronoun in the third sentence, which the KJV renders as "him" and the RSV as "it." The KJV translators interpreted the "him" as Abel, while the RSV translators interpret the "it" as sin. That is, the KJV translation reads that despite Cain's sin, his brother while still desire him and Cain will still rule Abel by virtue of his primogeniture, his being the firstborn son; the RSV translation reads that Cain must somehow rule over sin.

Here is an example of the old interpretation from the 1599 Geneva Bible notes:

>If thou do well, shalt thou not be [a]accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the [b]door: also unto thee his [c]desire shall be subject, and thou shalt rule over him.
>note a: Both thou and thy sacrifice shall be acceptable to me.
>note b: Sin shall still torment thy conscience.
>note c: The dignity of the firstborn is given to Cain over Abel.

This ties directly to the curse on Eve in Genesis 3:16 "and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." Meaning that rather than this being part of the curse, it is a statement that the normal situation will continue in spite of the Fall, in which the wife desires the husband and the husband rules over the wife as head of the family.

i've avoided the bible. Faith is a stench that makes even human stories reek.

>>9316516
Faggot

In The Skeptic's Annotated Bible, Steve Wells wrote that according to Leviticus 11:19, "Bats are birds to the biblical God." and he uses this as evidence of the bible being in error since bats are not in fact birds. The problem is that the word in Leviticus 11:19 translated as "bird," oph, is defined in Hebrew lexicons as "flying creature." Modern translators use the word "bird" instead of "flying creature" because every other animal on that list besides bats is a kind of bird.

Many critics grossly overreach in their attempt to discredit the bible. Consider the following statement from the atheist Jason Long in his book Biblical Nonsense:

>"The author of the first letter to Timothy advises his reader to drink wine instead of water (5:23). While researchers in the medical profession currently believe that alcohol is beneficial in moderation, consuming enough wine to remain hydrated for the rest of Timothy's life would certainly destroy his liver after a very brief period."

It's baffling why Long would interpret Paul's advice that Timothy "No longer drink water and only drink wine, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments" to mean that Timothy should drink only wine in the future. The Fundamentalist tendency to read into text what a person wants to see can be found even among nonreligious fundamentalists--including some atheists who are hell-bent on discrediting the bible.

The Bible is allowed to be the sole witness to history.

Some people will say "Even if the accounts of the patriarchs, or the exodus, or the Israelites in Canan are not anachronistic, that doesn't prove those accounts describe real events in history. They could just be pieces of historical fiction." But when people say this they are assuming that unless a historical event described in the bible is also described in a nonbiblical work, then the event either never happened or we have no way of knowing if it did happen.

This way of approaching scripture, what some call "hermeneutic of suspicion," treats the historical accounts in the bible as being "guilty until proven innocent." If a justification is given for this assumption, it's usually that the bible describes miracles, and that makes its historical accounts unreliable. But other ancient historians like Josephys, Tacitus, Suetonius, and Herodotus also record miracles, and their knowledge of the ancient world isn't deemed "suspect" unless someone else corroborates their assertions. In fact, these writers represent our only knowledge of many historical episodes.

Another point to remember is that critics who rejected the bible because it was the only witness to something have been proven wrong before. Prior to the late 19th century, the bible was the only source that attested to the existence of the Hittites. Since no other works or artifacts corroborated their existence, modern critics said this was yet another example of the bible getting ancient history wrong. But in 1880, Henry Sayce delivered a lecture demonstrating that hieroglyphics found in Turkey and Syria showed that the Hittites had actually existed.

Just as they did with the Hittites, modern scholars also doubted Belshazzar's existence because it was only recorded in the bible, but that too was disproven.

>>9316516
That's quite a faith you have there, senpai-- based entirely on ignorance.

>>9316524
not very godly of you anon

>>9316561
i know nothing but faith offends my nostrils. Who enjoys "the good book" that isn't a christfag? what agnostic doesn't find faith naive and childish? it makes even steinbeck hard to stomach.

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>>9316506
I have never noticed that. Thank you for bring that to my attention. After scrolling thru multiple translations, all except KJV say "it's" in reference to sin. The reference to Eve I've seen before, but it is still an interesting point. It is used to support a complementarian view of gender roles in the church.

I found a chart that shows different English translations from word to word into thought to thought. with Interlinear being directly translated without readability in mind, while the message is on the other end of the scale as a paraphrase of the Bible translated from the original text. Apparently the H in HCSB was dropped without me knowing about it. I guess it's odd to have the publishers name in the translation.

>>9316506

When the subject is sin personified, a la Cain's heritage, whoever would assume the subject without indication would revert to speaking of Abel and not sin is severely misled.

This channel doesn't get enough love. InspiringPhilosophy is worth checking out too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH__MCANbOo

>>9316596
It is "him" in the Geneva Bible as well. You can find the Abel interpretation in Reformation era works at the least. Beyond that I'm not sure.

>>9316605
This doesn't take into account the parallel language with Genesis 3, and ignores the theological question of whether a human can rule over sin. It's not as simple as you're implying.

>>9316640

The great thing about the story is that it's actually quite simple. Sin crouches at your door; you must rule over it.

Jesus ruled over sin in his way. Buddha persisted over his. Mohammad tamed his sin. The prophets of Israel pointed out the sins of Israel in order for the nation itself to rule over sin.

That is sin; selfish desires. Greed. You know sin because it's not complicated for you. In fact it comes very naturally.

To sin is easy. To rule over sin is not so. A great and very simple story still applicable to today.

>>9316640
Found an example. From John Calvin's commentary on Genesis (sorry for the long quote)

And unto thee shall be his desire. Nearly all commentators refer this to sin, and think that, by this admonition, those depraved hosts are restrained which solicit and impel the mind of man. Therefore, according to their view, the meaning will be of this kind, ‘If sin rises against thee to subdue thee, why dost thou indulge it, and not rather labor to restrain and control it? For it is thy part to subdue and bring into obedience those affections in thy flesh which thou perceivest to be opposed to the will of God, and rebellious against him.’ But I suppose that Moses means something entirely different. I omit to notice that to the Hebrew word for sin is affixed the mark of the feminine gender, but that here two masculine relative pronouns are used. Certainly Moses does not treat particularly of the sin itself which was committed, but of the guilt which is contracted from it, and of the consequent condemnation. How, then, do these words suit, ‘Unto thee shall be his desire?’ There will, however be no need for long refutation when I shall produce the genuine meaning of the expression. It rather seems to be a reproof, by which God charges the impious man with ingratitude, because he held in contempt the honor of primogeniture. The greater are the divine benefits with which any one of us is adorned, the more does he betray his impiety unless he endeavors earnestly to serve the Author of grace to whom he is under obligation. When Abel was regarded as his brother’s inferior, he was, nevertheless, a diligent worshipper of God. But the firstborn worshipped God negligently and perfunctorily, though he had, by the Divine kindness, arrived at so high a dignity; and, therefore, God enlarges upon his sin, because he had not at least imitated his brother, whom he ought to have surpassed as far in piety as he did in the degree of honor. Moreover, this form of speech is common among the Hebrews, that the desire of the inferior should be towards him to whose will he is subject; thus Moses speaks of the woman, (Genesis 3:16,) that her desire should be to her husband. They, however, childishly trifle, who distort this passage to prove the freedom of the will; for if we grant that Cain was admonished of his duty in order that he might apply himself to the subjugation of sin, yet no inherent power of man is to be hence inferred; because it is certain that only by the grace of the Holy Spirit can the affections of the flesh be so mortified that they shall not prevail. Nor, truly, must we conclude, that as often as God commands anything we shall have strength to perform it, but rather we must hold fast the saying of Augustine, ‘Give what thou commandest, and command what thou wilt.’

>>9316587
It's helpful for lit, and if you don't know the allusions, you miss out-- it's very interesting reading, as well. One bonus is that if (you) read it, youll discover that most Christfags have not, in fact, read it, and youll thereby be enabled to savage them on their 'own ground,' should the need (or such an occasion) ever arise.

>>9316587
By the way
>offends my nostrils
is a biblical allusion. it refers to god's taking offense at the smoke of sacrifices made by an unjust people. really, it helps to know this shit.

I like the guy who shepherds the weak from the valley of whatever, and shoots a lot of people.

>>9316725
>it's very interesting reading, as well
that's the question isn't it. are the stories organic and true to nature or are they infected with faith, forcing an agenda into human skin.

>>9316754
>are the stories organic and true to nature or are they infected with faith, forcing an agenda into human skin.

What is this even supposed to mean? Are you asking if the bible is religious?

>>9316754
The old testament, yes. the new testament, no.

>>9316686

Of all the interpretations of Genesis I've read, this is an interesting one.

"It rather seems to be a reproof, by which God charges the impious man with ingratitude, because he held in contempt the honor of primogeniture" - being the crux.

The author sees the sin as "not living up to expectation" and "being a bad believer" but his articulation and passion for discernment is clear. Personal interpretation is important, vital in fact, and any good story should be interpretable and beneficial in different way to different persons.

>>9316754
The second of the comments is mine. That's just the truth.

>>9316795
time will tell. When all the cults extinguish, will the new testament still be read? the koran? the four vedas etc?

>>9316754

Selfishness and greed are more infectious than anything else because they're natural mind sets of yonder time.

Since faith is an affirmation of God, and God cannot be affirmed without at least 'mustard seed' of faith, it is said you must approach faith and not the other way round. It is also said many will go astray and He will let them go astray.

>>9316822
Personally, I'm not interested in cults, only lit and life in the world. None of the texts (you) mention, however, are going anywhere so long as texts are read. Youre afraid of being absorbed? If so, that's an odd predicament..

>>9308935
Revelation Jesus where he goes beastmode "he smites the rebel nations, KANG OF KANGS, LORD OF LORDS

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When Jesus fought off the dragons

>>9317394
Bump